00:00:22 * Fulsome Distillation depends only on corpse type - RNG and rotting influence 00:00:22 has been removed. Also doesn't prompt when only one corpse present. 00:00:55 is there a way to hack up transparent metal? 00:03:10 Hmm, how is unique spawn rate in comparison to 0.5.2? Is the difference wirth noting in the changelog? 00:03:34 I could rename stone maybe, but it wouldn't ground 00:10:38 Changelog implies that possible splits are 16% Shoals-Swamp, 16% Shoals-Snake, and 67% Snake-Swamp. True? 00:15:29 I was just seared by a silver bolt. Why would TrMo take silver damage? 00:15:55 Why not 00:16:13 "Fulsome Distillation is now deterministic, depending purely on corpse type, rather than rotting levels and random chance. 00:17:00 That won't fit on 2 lines with the added note about prompting 00:17:38 Put it in a new section? 00:17:58 It randomly picks a branch from snake, swamp and shoals to disable. 00:18:09 Seems unecessarily verbose, especially compared to most of the changelog notes. 00:18:15 So 33% chance of no Snake, 33% chance of no Swamp, 33% chance of no Shoals. 00:18:17 Yeah that's what I thought, I'll tweak the wording on that too then 00:23:33 ...Man, that is impossible to say clearly on one line, hehe. Hmm. 00:24:47 Is this clear enough to assume each branch appears the same amount? 00:24:48 * New branch: the Shoals, with an equal chance of replacing Swamp or Snake Pit. 00:25:14 (just replaced '33%' with 'equal'.) 00:26:13 * New branch: the Shoals, which alternate with Swamp and Snake Pit. 00:26:32 TGW: yes 00:26:34 er 00:26:35 Twinge-: yes 00:26:47 the swamp 00:26:54 and the snake pit 00:26:57 the* 00:27:06 twinge's sounds like it always replaces one 00:27:33 TGW: True, can be interpreted that way 00:27:37 -!- Twinge- is now known as Twinge 00:28:10 Why not just spell it out? 00:28:13 * New branch, the Shoals. Dungeon builder uses two of the Snake Pit, the Swamp and the Shoals. 00:28:19 Haha 00:28:28 or whatever 00:28:29 "New branch: the Shoals. Greek-inspired, featuring merfolk, tides, and turtles!" 00:28:50 "Games now randomly select two branches from the Shoals, the Snake Pit and the Swamp to enable." 00:29:00 Sounds good-ish 00:29:22 I'll have to leave off the exclamation mark though I think :) 00:29:35 move it to tides! 00:30:39 No way, turtles! are the most exciting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y 00:33:05 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvGJLuDy-bU&feature=related 00:33:18 tides are more exciting because they eat islands 00:41:41 propose a Chebridos altar tile (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=799) by Jinhlk 00:47:09 jinhlk's turtle is adorable <3 00:52:26 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 00:53:59 Okay, finished with those fixes/aditions too then - http://www.it-is-law.com/dump/0007-Changelog-fixes-and-additions.patch 00:57:14 Huh, it pulled in as unknown on the From: info; checking the patches they have the correct info though? 00:58:31 oh nm, that's my local, git GUI was still in the other branch 00:59:57 How do I set git's default info for the From: part again, btw? I lost it when I had to do a fresh clean pull 01:00:40 git config user.name blah 01:00:49 git config user.email blah@blah.com.blah 01:01:58 Thanks. 01:03:02 use --global 01:03:07 git config --glob 01:03:09 global 01:03:27 that way, git will store your preferences outside the crawl repo 01:03:42 on unix it's ~/.gitconfig; windows probably has it in the registry or something 01:06:02 k 01:06:13 someone should go to hell for the four jelly jiyva altar 01:07:08 most likely dpeg 01:07:26 due: now is a great time to learn git-blame 01:07:36 oh, I'm not too concerned 01:07:44 'm happy to blame dpeg 01:12:04 due: Sorry for overloading you in patches, guess there's 4 waiting now ;P (re-downlaod if you had downloaded previously, btw - there was an errant ')' in the headers) Seems like the best way to go is seperate patches for seperate issues though, correct? 01:12:16 yup 01:12:29 I'm just about to go pack though :) 01:15:14 Should I ask sorear to patch them in instad then? hehe 01:21:51 Potions of slowing don't impress Cheibriados (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=800) by nubinia 01:45:41 hmm. 01:46:04 it breaks my heart that the piety message will probably be changed because of that 01:46:10 I wonder, perhaps it'd be okay to make cast_evaporate use _get_evaporate_result and then pick a random element from the std::vector returned from that? 01:46:22 Zaba: yes 01:46:33 it would make the chances slightly different, though. 01:46:35 Zaba: or better yet, use the vector version of random_pick_weighted 01:48:03 sorear, that would get rather complicated... 01:49:26 zaba! 01:49:40 hm, I also fail to understand the logic behind random_potion. 01:49:56 Twinge: excellent idea 01:54:17 i do not even bother to respond when i see people say "game breaking" in -crawl any more. 01:55:12 statue form is breaking the game 01:55:55 it's just a little bit of hyperbole, I doubt anyone thinks that's really game-breaking 01:56:21 due, what do they consider game-breaking now? 01:56:59 so is there a way to check if there's a cloud on a tile? 01:59:05 Twinge: in lua 01:59:10 TGW: in lua? 01:59:14 due: yes 01:59:21 ogaz: I assume that person does, based on their other comments. 01:59:48 -!- yobbo has joined ##crawl-dev 02:00:55 TGW: two seconds 02:02:00 Zombies raised from corpses sometimes appear on the wrong side of a wall (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=801) by Iskandar 02:03:41 hmm, we never actually did give greater nagas IOOD as promised 02:03:47 anyone care if I just do that 02:06:03 we also need to axe vamp hunger-over-time 02:06:04 -!- TGW has quit [Quit: bed] 02:06:55 -!- TGW has joined ##crawl-dev 02:08:41 -!- ogaz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:41 haha 02:08:50 hm? 02:09:10 TGW++ abandoning ##crawl forever 02:09:35 You didn't rejoin ##crawl. I assume this was deliberate. 02:10:25 the half of me that reads ##crawl is sleeping 02:10:34 :D 02:12:13 and now so is this half, but I eagerly await due's response and will remain online 02:12:49 sorear: we gave it to liches instead, no? 02:13:04 TGW: one moment 02:14:05 due: that doesn't address the fact that greater nagas with nerfed PA are wusses 02:14:40 iood is also still unbalanced 02:14:50 i'm for it if iood gets balanced for 0.6 02:15:06 iood is probably going to be removed as a player spell for 06. 02:15:18 ah 02:15:26 ... 02:15:30 is imb staying in power? 02:15:36 there are proposals for non-numerical nerfing but I doubt they'll make .6 02:16:49 Is there a way to make a monster berserk? Throw potion of berserk rage with portal projectile, perhaps? If so, in a setup like @12 you could make monster 2 basically fight on your side by berserking it and thus making it attack monster 1 in an effort of reaching you. 02:17:27 friendly moths 02:17:40 (hostile ones work better) 02:17:54 needles of frenzy, but they do that anyway 02:18:07 dammit, I just typed make deubg 02:18:11 why are people screaming about my suggested buff of berserk monsters? 02:18:22 it's like "omg omg omg no no no that would NEVER work". 02:18:26 at least jpeg agrees with me :) 02:18:56 * rebuilding crawl: new build flags or prefix 02:19:01 yay 02:19:22 now I get to wait for the ENTIRE THING 02:19:29 after a 10 line change 02:19:40 congratulations 02:19:41 life sucks 02:19:47 [master 000fc42] dgn.cloud_at wrapper for TGW. 1 files changed, 19 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-) 02:19:50 g++ sucks more 02:19:51 the entire thing.. well, it doesn't take very long here 02:19:53 TGW: tada 02:20:00 Zaba: ~10 minutes 02:20:01 about two minutes for a full debug build 02:20:04 with -j3 02:20:19 optimized builds take slightly more 02:21:17 make debug actually took me like a mere 5 minutes when I had to do a fresh install, I was shocked that it went so quickly compared to non-debug builds 02:21:31 And that's with a mediocre single-core comp 02:22:05 well it's good I can do other stuff 02:22:33 make -j3 debug 149.74s user 11.06s system 192% cpu 1:23.57 total 02:22:46 hm, I thought it was more than that. 02:22:51 ccache? 02:22:57 nope 02:23:01 I <3 ccache. 02:23:10 I've never used it 02:23:41 ccache is basically a substitute for correct makefiles 02:23:54 it'll be a lot more important after neunon leaves 02:24:05 very true 02:24:12 i onily ever really need it after switching branches 02:24:49 it'd be awesome if somebody would write tcc for C++ 02:24:59 tcc? 02:25:00 make -j3 235.45s user 10.28s system 196% cpu 2:05.36 total 02:25:17 oh, tiny c compiler? 02:25:18 due, a small C compiler 02:25:24 brb 02:25:33 small and designed entirely for speed 02:25:56 delightful! 02:26:00 like "Linux kernel in 15 seconds" fast 02:26:11 wow 02:26:33 (I don't know what computer or what kernel version that was, though) 02:26:51 Wikipedia says 10 seconds. 02:31:28 M - the cursed blowgun of the Vaults (weapon) {evade, AC-2 EV-1 Str+3 Int+2} <-- Evade +5 -1? :P 02:32:03 O_o 02:32:57 Twinge: oops, one sec 02:41:19 looks like I missed a step with the brand addition 02:41:31 a rather easy step 02:44:04 Why can't they get evasion? 02:45:09 I should try compiling crawl with clang. 02:46:06 Zaba: I looked into it once, but clang/c++ is missing some really important feature 02:46:10 IIRC it was 'classes' 02:46:21 sorear, it can compile itself these days 02:46:23 might have been operator overloading or something 02:46:35 Zaba: new in the last year? 02:46:47 not sure since when 02:46:54 sorear: Up for commiting a couple of patches? 02:47:09 due: because they can already get EV+5 02:47:24 ah 02:47:27 due: randarts can't get any brand that is redundant with a possible artifact property 02:47:31 Twinge: sure 02:48:36 There's 4 of 'em -- http://www.it-is-law.com/dump/0004-Cleanup-Joseph.patch http://www.it-is-law.com/dump/0005-Skeletons-D-2-OOD.patch http://www.it-is-law.com/dump/0006-Bone-Shards-Buff.patch http://www.it-is-law.com/dump/0007-Changelog-fixes-and-additions.patch 02:48:46 4-7? 02:49:21 Yeah, I decided to start numbering my patches instead of leaving them all as 0001 =) 02:50:12 yuck, too many files 02:50:18 git format-patch -s 02:50:42 not -s, --stdout 02:50:59 that way I only have to download one file 02:53:09 warning: 1 line adds whitespace errors. 02:54:51 whitespace errors? 02:55:07 end-of-line whitespace, probably 02:55:21 your patches are reviewed and pushed 02:55:34 please use --stdout next time 02:56:15 Ok, I didn't know about it 02:56:30 that's why I'm telling you 02:57:00 Aye. 02:57:14 Plants can be tormented (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=802) by OG17 02:58:54 Also - why are overmap.cc and overmap.h showing up on my unstaged changes list? (They don't seem to be causing any issues sitting there, but it still seems odd) 03:01:15 they got rrenamed? 03:01:34 Twinge: type 'git diff' to find out 03:01:36 Hmm 03:01:58 git diff shows nothing 03:02:28 Also due - dunno if you looked at the mon-gear changes, but I actually converted an if block to a switch block! ;) 03:02:55 you touched Joseph! 03:02:58 :( 03:03:06 my poor bubby joseph 03:03:36 you didn't actually give him sling bullets, though 03:03:44 oh, you did 03:03:46 due: Yes I did. 03:06:08 feh 03:06:12 feh? 03:06:23 I was planning on doing it all in one commit, but no mind. 03:07:09 due: Why doesn't frederick have new speech yet 03:07:24 sorear: because I spent most of today in hospital waiting rooms 03:07:35 due: ack!! 03:07:39 what happened? 03:07:42 family member had a bad allergic reaction 03:07:47 and where's the CIA? 03:07:52 CIA died last night 03:07:55 in all channels 03:07:58 cia.vc is also down 03:08:32 Oklobs are immune to pain? 03:08:34 since when? 03:08:36 @??oklob plant 03:08:36 oklob plant (09P) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 30-80 | AC/EV: 10/0 | Flags: 03plant | Res: 06magic(40), 03poison, 08acid+++ | XP: 558. 03:08:51 plant 03:08:58 ah 03:09:05 pain only affects MH_NATURAL 03:09:08 or used to, anyway 03:09:09 right 03:09:32 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:09:54 What a mess. 03:15:01 -!- st has joined ##crawl-dev 03:15:44 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:16:50 -!- syllogism has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:37 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:18:43 Twinge: :o :o :o You forgot joseph's shield! how could you! 03:23:04 due: Er, he's using a quarterstaff. 03:23:40 Huhh. 03:23:49 Sling + buckler! 03:23:52 With M_ARCHER. 03:24:00 As you said he should. I guess he could still use a shield with the staff, seems kind of awkward though. 03:24:06 -!- st has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:24:22 Twinge: M_ARCHER = no melee attack 03:24:26 the staff is pointless 03:24:36 Maybe it's overkill. 03:24:50 Nah! 03:25:33 sorear: He doesn't have M_ARCHER set presently :P due said quarterstaff and sling originally so that's what I went with. 03:25:47 Yeah, but then ther was a lot of discussion later with dpeg and greensnark and stuff. 03:25:55 Sorry, I didn't realise you'd intended to implement stuff for him, or I would've mentione :) 03:26:20 Ah! Thought it was clear at the time, hehe. *checks log* 03:26:42 Eh, will work on Freddy, anyway. 03:28:03 // rotting monsters ('n') 03:28:03 And you should've known, since I linked you the patch with a message using the word 'Joseph' before you talked with depg about it! Oh well. 'Tis fine to switch him to a pure slinger of course; either way seems fine. 03:28:05 // this thing doesn't have nr. 13 for nothing, has it? ($pellbinder) 03:28:21 ^I don't know what that means and was kind of curious. 03:28:30 NR? 03:28:35 due: number 03:28:36 oh great crawl historian, enlighten us! 03:28:40 that is an *ancient* comment 03:28:44 ah 03:28:45 so it can go? 03:28:53 Kill it! 03:28:56 it comed from the days when Crawl did not use symbolic constants 03:28:59 yeah 03:29:19 necrophages are #13 in the monster array 03:29:27 (int)MONS_NECROPHAGE == 13 03:29:32 nice! 03:29:39 why is thatt significant? 03:29:53 it's an amused observation 03:30:08 * due waits to cop flack for commit message. 03:30:29 * Madtrixr is indifferent 03:30:35 due: Also, if you reference a giant with Joseph's speech, I suggest making it a specific in-crawl giant type, e.g. 'I once slayed a hill giant with a slingle stone!' or whatever 03:35:12 HELLOOO FREEEEDDDY 03:35:46 Also also, if you want to convert any unique's speech to Middle English style, I can help with that :) 03:36:22 "Middle english style" or middle english? 03:38:17 Clarify! 03:39:03 A svelte fighter-mage who wears a gold-rimmed monocle and seeks a suitable and worthy opponent. You likely do not fit the bill. 03:40:34 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:41:47 I'm in the scrollback collecting sorearspeech. 03:41:55 Fairly accurate Middle English (or perhaps technically 'Early Modern English' -- what people always falsely call Olde English) but probably with some exceptions and/or exaggerations made as appropriate for ease of understanding and such. 03:42:21 due: also collect the twingespeak and madspeak 03:42:54 Twinge: early modern, like, Shakespeare? 03:43:14 04:58 03:43:19 sorear: yeah. 03:43:21 Yes, Shakespearian. 03:43:41 So late middle english 03:43:43 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:43:47 Rather then actual middle english? 03:44:11 (As in, Chaucer?) 03:44:30 Yeah, not Chaucer. That would be pretty incomprehensible to most players. 03:44:42 * sorear prepares the horn salute 03:44:43 due: Hi! A single wand of cold/fire with 4 or 5 charges is waaaaaaaay to cheap :) 03:45:04 due: I was thinking of 30 total charges =) 03:45:08 dpeg: I left it for you! 03:45:10 sorear: Hi there! 03:45:23 due: well, we need more than one wand... is that already in there? 03:45:27 dpeg: Yes 03:45:49 I'm in the scrollback collecting and rewriting speech 03:45:54 so ping me in a PM if you need me 03:46:02 You're talking trives, but that reminds me -- wand prices in shops should have a bit lower base prices and a bit more price weighting on the number of charges. Recharging scrolls aren't exactly common enough that just the wand is worth 90%+ of the cost 03:46:52 dpeg: two things... first, back when we nerfed PA, we decided to give greater nagas IOOD, but it never actually happened. Should that be Just Done? 03:51:36 I'm back. 03:51:55 I was opposed to giving greaters IOOD. 03:52:28 crawl_manual.txt still refers to Divinations spell school (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=803) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 03:52:49 Eustachio is D:10-D:16? That's pretty deep; 03:52:52 @??Esutachio 03:52:53 unknown monster: "Esutachio" 03:52:57 @??Eustachio 03:52:57 Eustachio (03@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 6 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: 06magic(26) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 197 | Sp: small mammals, call imp, blink. 03:53:14 He gets Sabre/Falchion and Leather Armor, so nothing too special 03:53:36 ?? Eustachio 03:53:36 eustachio[1/2]: A summoner of some sort in 0.5. His name is Eustachio. You killed his favorite bat. Prepare to die. 03:53:44 Eustachio is stupidly deep. 03:53:47 ?? Eustachio[2] 03:53:47 eustachio[2/2]: Beware his glorious mustache! Not to be confused with pistachio. 03:54:04 He's a fly on the windscreen of my crawl HUD by the time I run into him 03:54:36 Yeah, I can't really imagine him being much of a threat to anyone by D:10, much less D:16 03:54:56 ??sabre 03:54:57 sabre[1/1]: Base damage:7, To-hit:+4, attack delay:120% short blade. Best common short blade in the game, though daggers are better for stabbing. Quick blades deal damage faster, their relative effectiveness increasing with slaying and decreasing with AC. A sabre of speed is always the best short blade, unless you're stabbing or can make use of pain. 03:54:58 ??falchion 03:54:58 falchion[1/1]: One handed long blade, Dam: 8, Acc +2, Delay 13 03:55:06 When he was originally FRed I imagined he would sit in Sigmund's generation range 03:55:24 Yes 03:55:28 I'm tweaking right now 03:55:28 what's that? d2 to d5? 03:55:50 Yes. 03:55:55 d2 to d8 03:56:05 1-7. Dunno why 1 is included there since he clearly doesn't spawn on 1. Oh right, Starts at 0 03:56:14 No. 03:56:15 Sigmund is a bit of a fly-on-the-windshield at d8 though 03:56:18 Which means Eustachio is 11-17 03:56:21 It's not. 03:56:25 Do not b emislead. 03:56:28 I included one simply because. 03:56:34 But it's never cnosidered. 03:56:35 It's fine for them to occasionally be flies - it should just be the exception rather than the rule 03:56:52 !lm Sigmund max=lvl 03:56:52 1. [2007-08-24] Sigmund the Shield-Bearer (L3 MDFi) killed Terence on turn 1502. (D:2) 03:56:58 !lm uniq=Sigmund max=lvl 03:56:59 331. [2008-05-09] sorear the Black Belt (L10 KeAE) killed Sigmund on turn 12987. (D:9) 03:57:05 !lm uniq=Sigmund max=lvl -2 03:57:05 330. [2008-07-03] sorear the Reanimator (L9 HODK) killed Sigmund on turn 11423. (D:8) 03:57:08 !lm uniq=Sigmund max=lvl -3 03:57:08 329. [2008-07-30] sorear the Basher (L9 OgPa) killed Sigmund on turn 9934. (D:8) 03:57:13 !lm uniq=Sigmund s=lvl 03:57:14 331 milestones for sorear (uniq=Sigmund): 76x 2, 64x 3, 62x 4, 56x 5, 34x 6, 26x 7, 12x 8, 1x 9 03:57:15 Eustachio is just... bad. You usually run into him after Lair, too. 03:57:17 What's the reason for having e.g. "1-3, 4-7" instead of "1-7"? 03:57:25 Original division of numbering. 03:57:41 ? 03:57:44 And it will stay like that for a while. 03:57:53 Uniques were originally placed in blocks. 03:57:58 Ah. 03:57:58 The blocks were 1-3, 4-7, etc. 03:58:00 Old unique selection divided the level by ~4, added random2(2), then picked from a block 03:58:07 * Twinge nods 03:58:15 Yeah. 03:58:50 Wonderfully simple, but due was getting annoyed with trying to fine-tune Gastronok's range 03:58:51 call imp and spammals at d:2 would be pretty ridiculous 03:58:51 doy: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 03:59:03 sorear: No, no. *Infuriated*. 03:59:06 Yeah I don't think he should be a D:2 possibility, but certainly by D:4 03:59:08 !messages 03:59:09 (1/2) by said (16h 18m 17s ago): 092f2b1 should go in 0.6. 03:59:11 Twinge: yes 03:59:13 D:4-9 would be nice. 03:59:14 in a moment of classic sorear unhelpfulness I offered a ridiculously impractical solution 03:59:15 !messages 03:59:15 (1/1) pointless_ said (9h 59m 45s ago): dpeg says a17e0641 and ebe7f157 are ok for 0.6 03:59:28 namely reusing the vault system to choose uniques 03:59:36 sorear: It was an *excellent* idea. 03:59:39 somebody got confused and tried to implement it 03:59:49 What's the worst Call Imp can throw at you? 03:59:57 @?? ufetubus 03:59:57 ufetubus (115) | Speed: 15 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-10 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 5, 5 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(4), 02cold | Vul: 04fire | XP: 8. 03:59:59 @??ufetubus 03:59:59 ufetubus (115) | Speed: 15 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-10 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 5, 5 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(4), 02cold | Vul: 04fire | XP: 8. 04:00:01 @?? white imp 04:00:01 white imp (165) | Speed: 10 | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 412(cold) | Flags: 05demonic, fly | Res: 06magic(8), 02cold++ | XP: 10 | Sp: throw frost. 04:00:15 5,5 damage and speed 15 04:00:29 white imps hit *hard* and have a ranged attack 04:00:35 White imps are quite scary. 04:00:38 not quite like ogres but fairly close 04:00:46 But that's no reason to not have Eustachio earlier. 04:00:55 He could have a nerfed version. 04:01:03 i think d:4-9 would be fine 04:01:26 okay... 04:01:27 not helping matters is that the monster versions of both call imp and spammals are *way* stronger than the player version 04:01:27 I'd probably say let him still spawn in Lair too as he does now, but not Slime 04:01:36 summon any 5, and several at a time 04:01:45 Call Imp from monsters summons how many? 04:01:48 3 04:01:50 Hmm 04:02:15 Why not give him hounds? 04:02:17 ??lair 04:02:17 lair[1/3]: Accessed from the main dungeon somewhere between levels 8 and 13. Ten levels deep, eight in trunk. The lair is full of "natural" critters such as rats, snakes, and yaks. Although there is no rune (or boss) at the bottom, the entrances to the Swamp, Snake Pit, and Slime Pits appear there. The petting zoo of Crawl, if petting zoos had hydras. 04:02:17 can monster spammals get orange rats? or is that just vampire summon? 04:02:19 Or scorpions? 04:02:32 doy: yes, oranges are possible. 04:02:48 The difference is merely the number summoned. 04:03:00 Twinge: princes are quite messy in general. There will be a system look at them. 04:03:08 Maybe Hounds too, a slight stat buff (Damage+2 EV+1) and D:5-D:10 + Lair 04:03:20 Though... 04:03:22 War dogs on D:5? 04:03:24 dpeg: Nod. That one had stood out to me specifically more than others 04:03:30 sorear: I like IOOD for greater nagas. 04:03:39 More than 1 hound? Their spells are all better than player versions, hah 04:03:44 canines isn't implemented for monsters 04:03:49 Ah. 04:03:51 sorear: but I feel this is not something I should decide alone. Gotta ask Robert and Adam at least. 04:03:53 I'll do it in a minute 04:04:01 dpeg: Robert proposed it, I think. 04:04:29 ??cal canine 04:04:29 I don't have a page labeled cal_canine in my learndb. 04:04:32 ??call canine 04:04:32 call canine familiar[1/2]: Summons various h. Takes out monsters in the early game that spammals can't handle. Will occasionally be summoned hostile (chance is something like 4 in {spell power}). Types are jackal, hound, war dog, wolf, warg. Wargs replace wolves twice as often if you're a hill orc. 04:04:44 @??wolf 04:04:44 wolf (15h) | Speed: 17 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 3/15 | Damage: 8, 2, 2 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(16) | XP: 99. 04:05:06 I think most summoning spells would take him from boring late game threat to interesting early game threat. 04:05:50 doy: would you be upset if I change the unseen-branches colour to darkgrey? I played with brown quite a bit! =) 04:05:54 @whereis dpeg 04:05:54 dpeg the Covert (L10 NaWr), a worshipper of Cheibriados, saved on D:12 on 2010-02-14 after 21397 turns. 04:05:58 dpeg: go for it 04:05:59 (: 04:06:01 thanks 04:06:30 Yeah. I don't really like him doing scorpions, but hounds seems interesting; could even be a non war dog version (implying his skills aren't quite strong enough to get them yet) 04:07:00 Hm 04:07:03 Or link it into HD. 04:07:04 dpeg: ok, I'll fire off to c-r-d 04:07:14 dpeg: or !tell? 04:07:27 dpeg: other thing - what do we want to do for 0.6 DS 04:07:28 IIRC I heard something about uniques scaling to be a bad thing - so it wouoldn't be good to change the spell power based on his depth? 04:08:11 Twinge: HD, not depth. 04:08:39 sorear: c-r-d is good 04:08:55 IOOD is the last crucial item for 0.6 (where we need *decisions*), c-r-d is good. 04:08:58 due: I know what you said, I was thinking of different options :) 04:09:05 oh :) 04:09:10 confusing statements. 04:09:23 Nod - I started typing it before you said base it on HD :P 04:09:23 monster_type mon = MONS_PROGRAM_BUG; 04:10:05 I thought we'd killed all of those? 04:12:27 Good day! 04:12:39 due: I don't think it exists as a monster anymore. 04:12:46 dpeg: no, we specifically let it stay! 04:12:49 du 04:12:50 due 04:12:56 Ah. 04:13:20 Why not monster_type mon = MONS_NO_MONSTER? 04:14:22 Is MONS_PROGRAM_BUG is used to catch bugs? (asserts would probably make more sense there) 04:14:33 Okay, Freddy is done 04:14:47 Where MONST_PROGRAM_BUG is used to mean MONS_NO_MONSTER, the latter would probably make more sense there. 04:14:50 I am inclined to give him mooore speech but I am obsessed. 04:15:06 sorear: Yeah, what's the standard when assigning a blank monster type? 04:15:11 (tempoary) 04:15:11 due: The new speeches are good. :) 04:15:20 Keskitalo: Thanks! I'm loving Frances. 04:17:10 Yes! I love the subtle Aizul reference in Duane's. 04:17:22 :. 04:17:24 Edmund is also fun. :) 04:17:24 *:> 04:17:30 I'm glad other people got that. 04:18:17 doy: ugly line break :( 04:18:17 Temple: D:4-7 Orc: D:6-11 Lair: D:8- 04:18:21 13 04:18:53 dpeg: that's odd 04:19:01 oooh 04:19:04 i think i know 04:19:32 it's because the length calculations have to be done in a kinda dumb way 04:19:55 see where it says "56 - strlen(buffer)"? 04:20:04 that 56 probably needs to be changed 04:20:20 it's dependent on the markup stuff as well as the actual text 04:20:40 doy: should I hand over to you? 04:20:53 dpeg: yeah, i'll take care of it in a bit 04:21:00 working on cherry-picking at the moment 04:22:29 doy: thank you 04:22:31 Keskitalo: The Dowan thing is definitely a bug; it means that Duvessa would attack dowa nif he got in her way. 04:22:35 Keskitalo: v.. v. v. bad. 04:22:53 doy: also, I didn't say and you had trouble with it... but I don't think we need to mention Pan and Hells in the unseen branches. 04:23:18 Pan / Abyss 04:24:19 it just seemed weird to mention depths for hell and not for pan/abyss 04:25:53 due: Ok. :) 04:26:15 doy: then leave out Hells too :) 04:26:32 doy: rationale: we don't need to teach endgame players about where the endgame is. 04:26:47 dpeg: not about teaching so much 04:26:48 doy: but many players, myself included, don't bother with learning Lair/etc. depths 04:26:55 as just having the information easily accessible 04:27:03 for decisions like "where do i want to go next" 04:27:05 Need to tweak the silver ammo description.. it still actually talks about demons, looks like I forgot to commit that eariler. :P 04:27:26 doy: again, not a biggie, but I think not mentioning Hells, Abyss, Pan is there slightly better. 04:27:57 It should keep track of unseen fixed pan lord levels in 04:28:01 ^O ;) ;) 04:28:13 Keskitalo: I think Nappkin only recently added the 0.7 development branch in; it used to be 0.7 longterm planning. 04:28:29 I was at a loss as to what the nomenclature was, but hooray for the Napking, he fixed it! 04:28:56 Yes, that was just the other day I think. Hooray seconded! :) 04:29:15 What other Gods give strength/buff invocations? 04:29:25 Makhleb, I suppose. 04:29:36 ??mahkleb 04:29:36 makhleb[1/3]: Makhleb wants kills and sacrifices, and provides hp/mp-for-kills, two conjuration invocations, and two summoning invocations. Note that Minor Destruction has no piety cost, so you can use it freely (though it is hungering); servants are not 100% friendly; and greater demons are effective against hydras. 04:30:52 @??alligator 04:30:52 alligator (12t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30, 15 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(48) | XP: 1089 | Sp: swiftness. 04:31:07 doy: rgrm indicates that "why no divinations?" would be a good blog topic. Should I write something about itß 04:31:12 Eino - "0.7 development branch" is better default for "Fixed in Version", right? 04:31:17 dpeg: You meant me? 04:31:22 yes, sorry 04:31:27 dpeg: yes, *please* 04:31:31 bad tab, bad ß? keys 04:31:35 will do 04:31:39 dpeg: I'll include it in one of my play-testing posts while I'm away, if that's okay? 04:32:00 Napkin: Yes. Thanks! 04:32:14 due: Trog does Berserk and Trog's Hand. 04:32:18 due: sure 04:32:30 Keskitalo: ooh, good call 04:32:59 Napkin: Thank you! <3 04:33:15 due: On the boring uniques, they should all get their specific spellbook instead of using orc wizard etc spellbooks - even if the differences were very small. 04:33:18 :) 04:34:22 Perhaps Snorg should be a troggie? (I wonder about "brothers in arms" thing if the player worships trog too) 04:34:47 (0.7. of coursE) 04:35:08 Keskitalo: Agree. 04:35:16 Keskitalo: yes, I think that's the plab 04:35:59 here's no need to limit spellbooks now. 04:36:42 Oh AH 04:36:43 *GAH 04:36:46 Now the gods are bbroken. 04:37:21 this calls for tea, back in a bit. 04:38:11 Hehee, now Beoghites will get piety for killing Wayne, right? :) 04:38:34 dpeg: Notice how the god-worshipping monsters are slowly slipping in? :) 04:38:52 Keskitalo: yeah! 04:40:40 ...due buggered off. 04:41:02 he ran like a chicken. 04:41:18 * Madtrixr needs to go to bed, but refuses. 04:46:20 Hmmh. mons_is_insubstantial --> actor::is_insubstantial ? 04:47:41 Well.. there's no insubstantial players right now, and the only check is for silver. 04:47:57 I guess a hacky check will do. I'll add comments. 04:51:41 @??Wayne 04:51:41 Wayne (08@) | Speed: 7 | HD: 17 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 22 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(113) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1246 | Sp: pain, cantrip, smiting, minor healing. 04:51:45 ^Should not have a cantrip 04:53:27 that looks suspiciously like MST_ORC_PRIEST 04:53:55 wayne has always had the orc priest spellbook, at least in the past 04:58:50 Wayne doesn't have that spellbook any more 04:58:56 Nor is he speed 7. 05:00:06 Napkin: What's up with @?? and the branch system, do you know? 05:00:23 @?? obviously still runs off master... should we leave it as-is? 05:00:23 unknown monster: "obviously still runs off master should we leave it as-is" 05:00:25 not adjusted yet 05:00:41 it's possible that @?? is going off of the 0.6 branch? 05:00:49 of course 05:00:56 wayne's changes didn't make it in before the feature freeze 05:01:02 I just haven't updated it 05:01:28 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 05:01:41 snark which is green! all hail! 05:01:42 * due bows down. 05:01:47 \o/ 05:01:49 Good even 05:01:49 greensnark: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 05:02:01 Someone wants berserker rage to be a targeted spell! 05:02:06 Tha'ts the best idea I've seen all night! 05:02:08 !111 05:02:10 Why? 05:02:12 +6 Int from Chei <3 05:02:17 greensnark: So you can berserk your allies! 05:02:24 dpeg: when you reach a verdict on what 0.6 DS is going to be, tell me via something I'll see in the morning please *yawn* 05:03:12 Someone should make the haste spell player-only 05:03:25 Hi greensnark! 05:03:26 syllogism has been abusing it for far too long :P 05:03:32 Hey Keskitalo 05:03:46 Perfectionism (?) prevailed about is_insubstantial.. made it an actor method/function/thing. :P 05:04:00 nooo 05:04:07 then I'l have to recompile after I pull :( 05:04:25 Should I include monster.h or actor.h when I use mons->is_insubstantial()? 05:04:31 greensnark: we need more spells for HOCr/B, not less :( 05:04:42 :P 05:05:02 Make it two spells like we do for monsters :P 05:05:11 Haste for the caster, haste other for the caster's lackeys 05:05:13 :P 05:05:21 greensnark, I had so many questions for you but I forgot them all. 05:05:29 Did I leave you a message? 05:05:32 And anyone suggesting mass haste should just be shot 05:05:42 Something about the kraken :) 05:07:05 :/ 05:07:38 sorear: I have no plan, to be honest. 05:07:54 I thought DS changes were punted to 0.7 05:08:09 Hm. 05:08:11 On account of needing a massive list of mutation ideas 05:08:20 greensnark: yes, but the question is what to do now. 05:08:27 Are they broken now? 05:08:35 overpowered ratger 05:08:42 Oh 05:08:44 They were before too, though? 05:08:55 They weren't very op before 05:08:59 not overpowered, no 05:09:00 Don't know the current scene 05:09:00 Oh, hm. 05:09:07 Rollback then? 05:09:10 high quitscumming potential 05:09:22 disable for 0.6 =) 05:09:24 :D 05:09:26 together with Thief 05:09:34 Cruel, cruel man. 05:09:37 Keskitalo: Cannot rollback. 05:09:51 But the system can be changed to non-deterministic again. 05:09:54 For the 0.6 release alone, alpaca will stand-in for demonspawn as a player race 05:10:01 hehe 05:10:05 greensnark: I suppose this. 05:10:10 Quick substitute: player imp 05:10:21 Thirding alpaca race 05:10:28 dpeg: Fixed mutation list? :) 05:10:47 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 05:10:52 Hi by! 05:11:19 hello 05:11:19 by: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 05:11:23 !messages 05:11:23 (1/1) due said (7h 23m 40s ago): You're right about the glowing ammo thing, my brain wasn't functioning properly; I thought it was a "merging stacks without looking at pluses" thing, but it couldn't be, because I checked the code and that definitely works. 05:11:56 "Because of the high price commanded by alpaca on the growing North American alpaca market, illegal alpaca smuggling has become a growing problem." 05:11:58 hostile, related, religion, branch, silenced 05:12:50 related: Frederick's mother-in-law's speech? 05:13:10 no 05:13:12 I messed up the order 05:13:21 You can't get religion on its own 05:16:43 greensnark: Can you help me work out what's going on with __try_exact_string in mon-speak.cc. 05:16:57 Well, I'm not clear on what you're trying to do :) 05:17:19 Mmh, shoudln't master branch be called 0.7.0-a0 or so? 05:17:24 or... 05:17:41 Keskitalo: I would support this if only to reduce confusion 05:17:45 Just needs a tag 05:18:14 Please do so! 05:18:21 Who, me? :P 05:18:22 greensnark: I think I've got it. 05:18:46 Yay 05:19:23 Yaay fixed it. 05:19:40 I still don't have the GPG key thing to sign a tag.. 05:19:51 generate one? 05:20:32 Keskitalo: You don't need to sign the tag 05:20:45 git tag -a -m "0.7 rockage begins" 0.7.0-a0 05:20:48 and push 05:20:52 lol 05:20:59 <3 05:22:11 greensnark, by? Could you guys check on the DGL "clear_screen" thingy? I think it broke 05:23:24 Oh 05:23:30 Yesterday I wanted to watch someone and I had to wait like 2 minutes and watch him from D1 up to D12, then through Lair1-8 then until Snake Pit 2 05:23:53 Looks like the code is still there 05:24:04 Let me check 0.6 branch 05:24:15 later I wanted to show dpeg, and then it started at swamp1 until swamp2 05:24:25 so - it's not always missing - just sometimes 05:24:48 Maybe the player saved on Swamp:1 05:24:50 well, going down staircases doesn't clear the screen, does it? 05:24:56 Going down doesn't clear 05:25:06 But opening any fullscreen menu does 05:25:11 right 05:25:15 Like inventory, overview, X map 05:25:27 I don't suppose the player went that distance without ever looking at one of those 05:25:32 Does it happen for everyone 05:25:41 The code looks fine to me 05:25:46 another guy had the same problem - until he entered temple (and used ctrl+f to search for the altar, maybe?) 05:25:47 could we clrscr at the start of redraw_screen? and would it help? 05:25:50 just saying, its not that strange to potentially be swamp:1 - swamp:2 05:26:24 Ah, bugger. 05:26:35 by: That would help, but why would redraw screen be used? 05:26:47 Is it generally used without a clrscr before it, I mean 05:26:57 Unless the user explicitly asks for it 05:26:58 that's what I'm not sure about :) 05:27:14 Napkin: Did you upgrade dgl to a new version? 05:27:22 it's not apparently 05:27:24 XL 10 Naga, casting Control Teleport, thanks Che 05:27:28 what about doing it at the same time the time-stamp file is written? 05:27:33 no, same old, greensnark 05:27:38 I remember the old dgl checking for one of two escape sequences 05:27:41 I'm going to dump the "evil god" prefix. 05:27:46 Are we okay with this? It doesn't seem to be used at all. 05:27:49 And it would find the second escape sequence in ncurses' normal junk 05:27:51 And it's messing up stuff. 05:28:07 So we fixed the old dgl to only check for \e[2J 05:28:10 haven't changed dgl - i hope! 05:28:27 due: okay for now, but evil god will possibly come back 05:28:33 dpeg: why? 05:28:40 dpeg: the individual god prefixes should suffice 05:28:58 greensnark: Okay, I'll just add (greensnark) after "rockage begins" :P 05:29:01 nono, I haven't changed it - apart from the ulimit, since I switched to that new server in June last year 05:29:05 :P 05:29:23 Napkin: Other possibility is that you compiled without defining DGAMELAUNCH :P 05:29:50 we need CIA back 05:29:57 anyone know who runs the CIA project? 05:30:19 We could just roll our own 05:30:26 It seems to fall over so often 05:30:33 due: ah, ok 05:31:04 haha :) 05:31:43 maybe i'll add it as a feature to ashenzari 05:31:51 wouldn't be incredibly hard, i don't think 05:31:52 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:31:52 it's still "make USE_DGAMELAUNCH=YesPlease", right? 05:31:54 Yess 05:32:08 btw, did you see http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?page_id=409 yet, greensnark? :) 05:32:14 not going to happen now though, considering it's 5:30am 05:32:21 Napkin: Yes 05:32:22 the jta thingy's terminal support is terrible... 05:32:40 Napkin: Ooh, nice 05:32:57 either no color (vt100, vt220, vt320) or broken positions (linux, xterm, ansi) or missing colors (scoansi) 05:32:57 This is ajaxterm, right? 05:32:58 iframe magic 05:33:14 yes, ajaxterm... but it seems unstable and eat lots of CPU 05:33:14 Oh yes, the ajaxterm things is a scaringly awesome sight. 05:33:16 :) 05:33:32 Napkin: For a large terminal supporter, that term is surprisingly small :P 05:33:38 i also tried shellinabox - but omg how slow! 05:33:49 wordpress fixed width :-P 05:33:57 bbl - coffee! 05:35:01 I'm spectating dpeg over the wwwz! 05:35:13 And he's not moving :/ 05:35:13 * greensnark pokes dpeg with a cattle prod. 05:35:44 Does ajaxterm do ssh :P 05:36:19 This is just a bit too laggy for me 05:36:37 Feels like 500ms+ 05:39:17 Napkin: http://tozt.net/uploads/images/screenshots/cdo-term.png 05:39:26 i imagine something else should be happening here? 05:39:35 Turn off noscript? :P 05:41:08 not necessary - that happens sometimes too - I have no idea why 05:41:11 not running noscript d: 05:41:27 exactly what i meant with "unstable" 05:41:35 (: 05:41:35 i just reloaded and it works fine here 05:41:46 I observe dpeg playing a Naga of Che 05:41:48 Very traditional 05:42:09 what's with the people playing with terminals smaller than 80x24 05:42:19 doy: Some people are using terminal apps on iPhone 05:42:25 really 05:42:27 I saw mention of it on ##crawl 05:42:32 how ridiculous 05:42:34 Yeah, they claim it's pretty playable :P 05:44:03 greensnark: hey, I have +10 on stats already =) 05:44:06 so how much delay do ponderous items add? 05:44:30 ajaxterm works pretty well for spectating 80x24 players 05:44:37 anyways - if someone can hack jta - i'd of course prefer that 05:44:48 Fonts are a little more squinched than my favoured 24 point though :P 05:45:02 And if I ask my browser to zoom in, the terminal loses lines and columns :) 05:45:08 and I spend another 2 hours yesterday to look for other javascript or java terminals.. 05:45:18 hmmm 05:45:21 no, the iframe does, greensnark 05:45:37 A decent Javascript thing would be better than Java 05:45:43 dpeg's game is making me worried about the current state of ballistos 05:45:44 I often don't have Java in the browser 05:45:49 oh, the joys of Che: oklob proof gear :) 05:45:58 no, java would be lots faster.. 05:46:01 doy: no, it's fine 05:46:02 Napkin: True 05:46:20 yesterday having 10 people using it - it took one cpu completely 05:46:27 But most of my desktops don't have the plugin installed :) 05:46:29 Oh 05:46:33 It uses that much CPU? 05:46:36 yes 05:46:36 Weird 05:46:50 Oh yeah, it has a python script to run the backend, I forgot 05:47:02 So the CPU hog is the python? 05:47:12 -!- by has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:47:17 I have no clue :) 05:47:37 I thought you checked what was using CPU? :) 05:47:54 not that easy - you'll see :) 05:49:03 additionally - the ajaxterm doesn't properly end the process (/usr/local/sbin/dgamelaunch in this case) properly and immediately 05:49:33 shellinabox was much nicer - but utterly and terribly slower - which suprised me 05:49:37 *surprised 05:49:54 I think most of these aren't designed to run ncurses stuff 05:50:07 They consider it a job well done if they can show you a bash prompt :) 05:50:41 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 05:50:46 shellinabox scrolls everything 05:50:57 even ncurses stuff - which makes it so slow 05:51:19 ajaxterm is better in that, it just redraws parts 05:52:01 jta was very nice about speed and automatic resizing of the font - but horrible terminal support 05:52:11 unless we want to present B/W 05:52:23 :D 05:52:47 I'm hungry. 05:53:04 * greensnark tosses due a pineapple. 05:53:10 redrawing the whole screen once per user-input shouldn't be limiting, should it? 05:53:12 update CDO? 05:53:17 Also, I am assuming the bomb blast on the news earlier was nowhere near you, greensnark? Or that you are otherwise okay? 05:53:29 Napkin: I'm just about to push Frederick's speech 05:53:37 It was in Pune 05:53:39 roger - i'll wait 05:53:46 greensnark: ah--didn't say and I forgot to look it up. 05:54:23 a German cat store, right? 05:54:50 (I may have mixed something up) 05:54:53 You can't make friendlies speek? 05:55:12 Ze friendlees, they doo not speeek! 05:55:24 oooh cool 05:55:29 I got it stuck in an endless loop 05:55:41 There's a command to make stuff talk using 'x', no? 05:56:19 SEGFAULT 05:56:20 WOOHOO 05:56:40 x and s to make a monster talk 05:56:48 would anyone mind if I force some save-game upgrades? 05:56:57 Much easier than torturing them 05:57:02 Napkin: Go ahead 05:57:05 Pushed the incorporeal undead & silver change; and the is_insubstantial refactor. 05:57:10 I think I just upgraded my game, so my conscience is clean :P 05:57:23 Napkin: a good idea prbably 05:57:23 11 versions of save-tag 16 05:57:27 greensnark: I was trying xt for some reason. 05:58:05 Has anyone got a wizmode copy open? 05:58:21 Can they create roka, make him friendly (xF) and then make him speak (xsT1)? 05:58:30 2 left :> 05:58:43 Hey, someone just pushed a change to actor.h :P 05:58:48 greensnark: I know :( 05:58:51 Hello, whole-universe-rebuild :D 05:58:54 savegame-all-transfer.sh <3 05:59:52 may as well push the freddy speech 06:00:18 Is there a way to just push one commit in my tree, or do I have to reset the other one in front of it? 06:00:58 Okay 06:01:01 copy that branch and remove the commits you don't want pushed? 06:01:01 Saint Roka needs better friendly speech 06:01:58 And what is this Orcish anthem stuff :P 06:02:23 This is why I mute the monster speech channel whenever friendly orcs are involved :P 06:02:35 Or for that matter hostile orcs 06:02:50 " cheers repeatedly, as Orcs often do." 06:02:51 * due drowns Keskitalo. 06:02:54 ^^ hate that 06:03:13 Hate all the "does X repeatedly as Orcs-with-capital-o often do" lines with a passion 06:03:23 Orcs annoys me 06:03:35 Sigmund laughs, as Humans often do? 06:03:43 Zees eez not ze German! 06:03:47 * due ducks behing greensnark. 06:04:02 greensnark: make better speech! 06:04:21 Well, on the whole, I like common monsters to shut up and fight :P 06:04:25 So I will not add to the problem 06:04:33 Uniques should talk. Orcs should die. 06:04:50 hehe 06:06:31 Yeah, that was me. With actor.h. 06:06:50 Keskitalo: Doesn't worry me much, I was just bringing it up to remind due of your crimes :P 06:06:59 Since I can compile in 50s from distclean 06:07:09 Don't you just love it when beetle zombies are faster than you? 06:07:32 dpeg: Well, you chose Che so you get to reap as you have sown, etc. 06:09:06 Someone on SA reported a spriggan of Che 06:09:22 Fortunately the game killed him on D:3 before he could appreciate the magnitude of his error 06:09:44 hehe 06:11:54 Players on SA have good things to say about Fedhas 06:12:16 they should, although SAers have become wimply and toothless 06:12:17 Hee, trucutru made his Zot:5 look like a tribute to Zot Defense :P 06:12:26 hehehe 06:12:34 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=158 06:12:46 !lg * ikiller=mara 06:12:46 8. pingpong the Reanimator (L15 DDNe), worshipper of Makhleb, slain by pingpong's illusion (woven by Mara) on Vault:2 on 2010-02-02, with 69705 points after 29145 turns and 2:07:13. 06:12:49 :D 06:13:09 due: Did you see DrPraetor's fight? 06:13:15 greensnark: 50s... 06:13:17 doy: Are you going to revert your changelog commit to master now that it's chherrypicked into 0.6? 06:13:20 !lg * ikiller=mara -2 06:13:20 7. nmf the Eclecticist (L15 DECj), worshipper of Sif Muna, blasted by an illusion of Mara (bolt of fire) (woven by Mara) on Vault:5 on 2010-01-29, with 106201 points after 60322 turns and 5:32:50. 06:13:24 He killed Mara but Mara cloned his berserk self 06:13:24 !lg * ikiller=mara -3 06:13:24 6. doy the Severer (L18 DrCr), worshipper of Yredelemnul, blasted by an illusion of Mara (bolt of lightning) (woven by Mara) on Vault:3 on 2010-01-28, with 184232 points after 54024 turns and 9:33:40. 06:13:31 Nice! 06:13:44 Unfortunately his berserk wore off in time for him to blink out :/ 06:13:48 Mara is interesting but not deadly enough. 06:13:50 due: no, those changes still aren't in 0.6.0 06:14:04 they can be added to the 0.6.1 section, once we make that 06:14:08 doy: but... the changes are in 0.7? 06:14:11 oh. 06:14:14 right. 06:14:40 New features can go into 0.6.X as long as there's someone ensuring sanity of those features :) 06:14:44 And that saves are not broken, etc. 06:14:50 yeah 06:14:56 Maybe I should put in a more flavourful (and design-explaining) description for silver? 06:14:58 Now that there's a release manager, that sounds fine 06:15:14 stuff like the updated uniques and such should be able to go into 0.6.1 just fine 06:15:17 The whole "silver hurts things that aren't in their original/natural/whatever form) 06:15:49 Can I has platinum arrows 06:16:17 "You see here a depleted uranium arrow" 06:16:34 Sweet. 06:16:45 If this was NetHack, that should be in there. 06:16:53 Well, Slash'EM :) 06:16:59 Better. 06:17:07 06:12:52 < st_> silver sears you just for mutations? 06:17:15 06:15:01 < st_> I dunno, my only mutation is Dex+1 from a potion of gain dex, I'm not that chaotic :P 06:17:21 :P 06:17:27 Yeah, and you get like 0-1 extra damage. 06:17:32 Ah. 06:17:33 yes. Slash'EM would have a depleted uranium arrow, and be really fucking powerful. 06:17:37 It's not very obvious from the message, of course. 06:17:39 Keskitalo: Maybe different messages? 06:17:44 "The silver bolt tingles mildly!" 06:17:52 Hehe, shouldn't be hard to do. 06:17:56 At 0-1 it should be "tickles mildly" :P 06:18:02 i'm curious if dpeg will ever be able to clear the ballistos, at his speed 06:18:11 my guess is no 06:18:12 (: 06:18:16 I thought there was a change to spores? 06:18:20 Using mold trails? 06:18:24 Or mould trails 06:18:26 But the racial instrict mutations seem to count for silver damage, which is Wrong. I misunderstood the code and didn't test it. :P 06:18:36 yes, but you still have to go around and kill all of the ballistos before they make more spores 06:18:45 and dpeg is a naga, wearing 4 ponderous items 06:18:47 Oh, wow, that cyan floor is mold-covered? 06:18:50 yes 06:18:54 I thought he was casting silence :P 06:18:57 I wanted lightgreen. 06:19:24 Sheep should eat fungi :P 06:19:28 And then act intoxicated :P 06:19:31 "The touch of silver sears those who are out of their natural form." ? 06:19:51 "A sheep comes into view. It is, like, totally tripping on mushrooms, dude!" 06:20:06 Keskitalo: That sounds like it affects only transformed characters 06:20:18 doy: yes, I also guess no. But it's not outright dead.y 06:20:19 the worst thing about chei is that if you accidentally move when you shouldn't, the enemy potentially gets 3+ attacks :P 06:20:23 also when you enter their los 06:20:26 i guess you can shout a lot 06:20:37 syllogism: "Really move with monsters in sight? y/N" 06:20:42 :P 06:20:57 Keskitalo: You should add a "you mad fool!" qualifier at the end of the prompt 06:21:13 "Really move with monsters in sight, you mad fool?! n/N" 06:21:21 maybe Slouch should be cheaper 06:21:22 SA are a bunch of annoying powergamers. 06:21:28 and it definitely should have a longer duration 06:21:28 I'm not sure why I bother reading the threads. 06:21:34 they make my blood boil stupidly. 06:21:48 Well, it's important to know how powergamers think :P 06:21:49 due: You should make popcorn and laugh at the antics. 06:21:50 know thine enemy, due ;> 06:21:57 This is why I watch syllogism's games, for instance :P 06:21:57 "Fedhas is boring"? 06:21:57 And what greensnark says. 06:21:59 "lol" 06:22:38 due: There's often in-thread rebuking. (Well, often by syllogism, not sure if that counts. :]) 06:22:39 But I suppose this is from people who think that Okawaru is the most amazing god of all of them omg. 06:22:44 Keskitalo: Bad mood :) 06:23:08 due: There are actually various cool people in SA, as well as some complete dopes :) 06:23:52 I actually find the complete dopes really amusing :P 06:24:03 And they're the main reason I check out SA so regularly 06:24:09 Their hyperbole is comical 06:24:27 with what nick do you post there, greensnark? 06:24:28 greensnark: The silver description would continue with the list of things it hurts; corporeal undead, shapechangers, chaotics, the mutated. 06:24:36 Napkin: I don't post 06:24:41 Well, I think I did once 06:24:55 Probably in the old 0.4 thread 06:25:00 ah, ok, misunderstood Eino 06:25:04 Keskitalo: Ok, sounds fine then 06:27:50 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 06:27:52 Apparnetly we're extremely unapproachable. 06:27:59 Textmode: GET OUT GET OUT GET OUT DO NOT APPROACH OUR GLORIOUS TRONES 06:28:11 * due coughs. 06:28:17 ...? trones? 06:28:20 ... Thrones. 06:28:24 God, I fail so hard. 06:28:33 yes. yes you do. 06:28:41 * Textmode huggles due 06:28:44 Welcome, young Textmode, we have been expecting you. 06:28:57 * Textmode huggles greensnark 06:29:04 Cheers! 06:29:05 greensnark: Are db keys case sensitive? 06:29:06 You have, master? 06:29:09 we're unapproachable because they show up with bad ideas, and we tell them that the ideas are bad, and they get upset 06:29:19 new Swamp looks great :D 06:29:29 maybe even more land? 06:29:41 doy: True. 06:29:42 due: Yes 06:29:47 greensnark: Oh, duh. 06:29:56 due: But there may be code that lowercases everything before querying, dunno 06:30:46 That's fine. 06:30:52 Oh, hm. 06:31:00 by: "Just wanted to say that I absolutely love the way messages are reworked in trunk. Now when you're standing on a pile of items, it lists them all in a row separated by ;, rather than one per line." 06:31:08 I love the messagewindow changes too! 06:31:11 They're hawt 06:31:15 Me too 06:31:27 And that was a quote from SA :) 06:31:55 heh - i like them a lot too - apart from items on a pile - having them in a row is more difficult to see quickly 06:32:44 due: Haha, I found your "unapproachable" comment 06:33:01 :) 06:33:18 dpeg posted in SA a few times 06:33:21 greensnark: What do you think about berserk monsters being able to push past smaller monsters to get to the player? 06:33:30 And several people there commented in their usual juvenile style, so he left 06:33:39 I think this was one of the juvenile wankers :P 06:33:47 Hehehe. 06:33:55 "juvenile wanker" is my new favourite insult. 06:34:06 due: Sure, sounds fine to me 06:34:24 Excellent, for some reason I thought my ideas process was broken. 06:34:43 greensnark: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=766 Would you mind a +1? ;) 06:36:18 Core Xii's proposals are always entertaining 06:36:52 "Let's make this game more and more like NetHack, in every possible way!" 06:37:03 Stream-of-consciousness idea dump, qualified with "On second thought, maybe minor point is less minor than I thought" 06:37:17 syllogism, thanks! 06:37:36 dpeg: Let's rename to CrawlHack and start adding as many anoying NetHackisms as possible. Yes/yes? 06:38:00 06:39:56 Hehe, I love how SA players who don't know how to play post about how their inability to play is because of "Crawl's poor project management" :P 06:40:02 I think it was the labyrinth change complaints in SA when dpeg left. And the lab is so much better now. 06:40:05 They're like US Republicans! 06:40:12 greensnark: Ooh, gimme! 06:40:44 "Balance between creativity and utility is as important as risk vs reward. If you want content to be used for anything besides bragging rights you need to make it worth the players' time. Yes, roguelikes are a hobbyist genre, so mainstream appeal and so on aren't a concern, but spending time coding content that few people will ever experience is poor allocation of man hours that could be better spent somewhere else. Good pr 06:40:51 :P 06:41:01 ahhaha 06:41:03 Good pr 06:41:29 (it was cut off) 06:42:54 "Good project management isn't just for triple A developers." 06:43:16 someone should link him to the wiki 06:43:53 How would that help? He'd just have to work hard to find something else to whine about :P 06:44:35 hahahah what? 06:44:44 I spent altogether too much time working on unique speech. 06:44:45 heh what the hell 06:44:50 Hardly anyone will see it 06:44:56 But I don't give a fuck because *I enjoy it so much*. 06:45:07 And I do crawl coding because it's fun, not because I give a damn about players like that :0 06:45:10 greensnark, they claim that they can't play because crawl is poorly *managed*? 06:45:17 greensnark, does that even make any sense? 06:45:35 Zaba: No. 06:45:39 No(n)sense :0 06:45:52 Zaba: The line of reasoning is: "I keep dying in early game. People keep adding content that's not in early game. Therefore Crawl is poorly managed." :P 06:46:10 it's missing a '???' between the last sentence and the one before it. 06:46:12 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:46:43 if people were adding more content to the early game, that would just make it easier to die in it. 06:46:49 Well, it's obviously not his fault that he's not seeing the content! 06:47:59 :/ Now I broke related Beoghites. 06:49:17 it's reported that clouds don't show up in x or during targeting, right? 06:49:34 greensnark: Let's rewriting the monster speech system! TONIGHT! 06:49:53 Yes! 06:50:01 I don't really know how it works now, but why not :P 06:50:08 Short story: it doesn't work. 06:50:09 I'll be a good manager right now! DUE STOP WORKING ON SPEECH AND DO SOMETHING USEFUL DAMMIT 06:50:10 As long as we can wrap it up in 40 mins 06:50:15 Meh, the goons need to get over themselves. 06:50:17 I have to go out soon :) 06:50:59 greensnark, what about monster definition in lua? 06:51:07 something useful... what about making sheep fires spread? 06:51:08 That's a little more than 40m 06:51:14 kilobyte: +1 06:51:30 sheep should ignite faster than gunpowder, and groups of sheep should explode in huge fireballs 06:51:34 Level-consuming fireballs 06:51:40 +1 06:51:51 Roka's speech is hideous and coonfusing 06:52:01 "This is only used if you aren't related to Roka or a beogh" 06:52:13 Roka's relatives are also in Crawl, eh? 06:52:19 Is Nergalle his sister or something 06:52:20 right. Let's do it the way of DoomRL nuke/Angel Arm. The whole map gets converted to floor, and you'd better be Death Doored. 06:52:23 And then it substitutes his generic speech into everything else 06:52:44 Hey it's kilobyte! 06:53:27 greensnark: the keyword "related" stands for "similar species" (like, dwarf -> MD or DD) 06:53:37 Oh 06:53:59 Crawl needs great apes 06:54:04 Apart from humans, I mean 06:54:05 Mu_! <3 06:54:09 Mu_, we need vestibule maps. 06:54:20 really 06:54:21 Mu_ has joined the giddy throng 06:54:26 yes 06:54:39 wanna make it use subvaults? 06:54:59 * greensnark proposes sunvaults. 06:54:59 * due pets Mu_'s subvault addiction. 06:55:44 Subvaults for each of the four hells 06:55:54 it's a clearly sectioned map it's a prime candidate :p 06:55:56 subvaulted vestibule sounds like a plan 06:56:00 Subvaults are sexy. 06:56:04 you know, a NetHack mod for Crawl would be awesome! 06:56:13 The whole channel has a sexvault obsesion! 06:56:15 *subvault. 06:56:26 yeah, they are great 06:56:34 Nethack could have a sexvault with incubi and succubi. 06:56:38 CrawlHack: Nymphs + Fountains, LOL! 06:57:10 Mu_: Your idea is beautiful. 06:58:03 the vestibule should be randomized, too, that is, the location of the hell entrances within the map should be random 06:58:13 which, I believe, is easy when using subvaults. 06:58:17 "From the murky drain, a hand rises up --oops--" 06:58:22 :P 06:58:41 Strange women lying in sewers distributing swords is no basis for a system of government 06:58:51 I'd rather make the whole map differ, rather than merely shuffling the hells around. 06:58:58 I'm thinking of adding is_unclean to actor and player as well as as monster.. 06:59:03 vestible vaults? 07:00:13 Maybe related never worked. 07:02:37 I can't see how I could've broken this 07:05:12 due: I just checked, it works in 0.5 07:05:31 kilobyte: which one? 07:05:39 related 07:05:47 oh 07:05:55 I'm specifically having issues with Roka. 07:06:00 Hostile Roka on a Beogh worshipper. 07:06:07 Do you get "there can only be one messiah" with trunk? 07:06:11 (Before the change I just pushed?) 07:06:24 Hehe, nice one 07:06:32 lemme check, I tested 0.5 with a spriggan and with a non-beogh orc 07:07:03 because I cannot get it at all 07:07:06 but in that same regard 07:07:24 I cannoot comprehend why my changes wouldn't fix it 07:10:08 kilobyte: thanks 07:11:08 back 07:11:41 doy: for the change you chose not to cherry-pick (e.g. my change of the !magic weight), will the changelog be lost? 07:11:42 were the changes before the branching point? 07:12:03 0.6.0-a2 doesn't work. 07:12:21 no 07:12:24 the changes were tonight 07:12:38 so it was probably johanna's changes to the related prefix 07:13:08 Argh. I'd sure like to get silver hurt Disso and Ribbit.. maybe include them specifically in _silver_damages, and later make a better is_shapechanged. 07:13:19 dpeg: doy's gone to bed, I think 07:13:53 He cherrypicked something eleven minutesago. 07:14:02 Oh 07:14:14 He did say it was 5.30am and he hadn't gone to bed yet a while back :) 07:14:31 doy: Don't work too hard. :P 07:17:11 !tell doy For the change you chose not to cherry-pick (e.g. my change of the !magic weight), will the changelog be lost? 07:17:11 dpeg: OK, I'll let doy know. 07:26:29 tweak away at wands 07:27:20 I think 30 charges for a wand of cold is impossible though 07:27:43 due: yes, you would have to hand over more than one wand. 07:27:46 How hard is that? 07:27:56 not difficult 07:28:04 erm 07:28:07 no, wait, rather. 07:28:15 let's not go there. 07:28:29 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:28:30 that can be for 0.7, accepting multiple wands would be... painful. 07:29:11 I still have to get used to slugs running away from me. 07:29:20 due: yes, not for 0.6. 07:29:33 so I will only do the single wands (hasting, healing) 07:29:51 yup 07:30:19 -!- yobbo has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:30:40 Jesus, Faith is a killer. 07:31:12 Jesus agrees with you. 07:33:43 dpeg: You took it off? :P 07:34:54 greensnark: no way! 07:35:22 Slow god should not encourage gaining piety too fast 07:35:27 :P 07:35:35 piety is the only thing keeping me alive 07:36:02 speed 5 isn't very nice when you find a lair 1 hydra 07:36:19 Was that dpeg or you? 07:36:20 guess I'll learn spider form :P 07:36:23 hypothetical 07:36:37 Doesn't spider form annoy Che? 07:36:42 For going faster and stuff 07:36:48 probably not 07:37:22 The safety checks to prevent transforms where that would lead to stat-death probably don't work for Che 07:37:44 The way Che stat boosts are calculated make that kind of accounting very tricky 07:38:43 I guess my spear of chaos doesn't trigger when I throw it :( 07:40:05 syllogism: I'll use banish. 07:40:24 hydra :) 07:41:46 syllogism: probably not 07:41:56 syllogism: it's not treated as a missile.. 07:42:12 evaporate autotargets the player when something is in LOS but out of range and there's no warning prompt :P 07:42:31 You rely on the warning prompt? :P 07:42:54 And did you file the bug? :P 07:43:03 I though tthose were fixed? 07:43:05 I'll depending on whether I splat or not :P 07:43:07 At least vampiric draining does. 07:43:10 Oh 07:43:12 Never mind. 07:43:20 two centaurs in los and I'm confused :P 07:43:29 That ought to go well 07:44:27 I miscasted a spell on purpose to get butterflies :P 07:44:29 and it worked :P 07:45:06 "lol". 07:45:10 well it did until I started moving :P 07:45:18 forgot I cant displace them when I'm confused 07:46:57 claws 07:48:45 Silver punishes for racial mutations (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=804) by evktalo 07:49:26 syllogism: ^Q for claws yet? :P 07:49:30 yes 07:53:25 I'm too scared to do the 0.7. tag. 07:54:21 Keskitalo: Want me to push it? :P 07:55:39 Can we add turncount display on ^P screen? 07:55:53 So that looking at message history, you can see what turn the various messages were from 07:56:10 I'm not entirely sure where to fit in turn info though 07:56:31 greensnark: Please! 07:57:27 Should I tag at the point 0.6 branched or just tag the head of master 07:58:01 greensnark: master 07:58:09 doy cherry picks or not 07:58:27 Branching point would be proper, but I think the head of master would do as well. 07:58:49 Ok, head of master is also easiest :P 07:59:24 Figured so. :) 07:59:26 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 07:59:30 Hiya purge! 08:00:15 borsuk just tried to explain via in-game messages that Crawl is more an ameritrash boardgame than an European/German one 08:00:28 ... 08:00:42 Oh? :) That sounds interesting. 08:00:55 Let's see a char dump 08:01:49 Keskitalo: I don't think it's a good idea to compare computer and board games. 08:02:59 Hey Keskitalo! 08:03:10 No, but I suspect Borsuk is saying there's a design principle difference that is different between ameritrash and German-style boardgames, which would apply to Crawl. 08:04:08 Well, it *can* be useful to compare board and computer games. Crawl could be a board game. Just too complex to play. :P 08:04:58 purge: I like the chests! I caught myself thinking about how a treasure chest feature would work in Crawl. :P 08:05:10 I liked the chests also. 08:08:14 Crawl needs tigers and baby tigers. 08:09:25 -!- jld has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:11:15 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 08:13:10 No containers. 08:13:21 Yeah. 08:13:38 Tiger cubs are devastatingly cute 08:13:58 * Keskitalo flings a tiger cub at greensnark, devastatingly 08:14:00 Lemuel would probably explode from overexposure to sheer cuteness. 08:14:10 greensnark: Precisely. 08:15:58 I'm off. Cheers! 08:16:15 containers are a no-no, but a Lua trigger which would spawn some items only after you enter the square could be interesting 08:17:04 it would be mostly flavour though, since the only diff is that you can't see what's there from afar or use apport 08:17:11 oh, those wacky randart books, always breaking my parse! 08:17:56 kilobyte: Item traps! they fall from the ceiling instead of nets. 08:18:28 cloak trap! randart cursed cloak that is automatically equipped 08:19:10 Hehe 08:19:20 Unless you make a successful grapple check :P 08:19:35 Artefact cloak trap 08:19:35 Animated armour! 08:19:39 why are containers a nono? 08:19:53 due: how does that differ from mimic? :P 08:20:06 The armour picks up a sword and chases you aorund. 08:20:26 heh 08:22:08 Containers add a lot of interface overhead and do not present any clear benefits to compensate for this 08:22:17 damn, I was assuming the first word of an items "name" was an indicator of quantity, but randart books break that rule :/ 08:22:39 Also, Nethack has containers. D&D too! 08:22:43 :P 08:22:58 :P 08:23:13 Textmode: for what, Lua? 08:23:35 someone drafted me to make a parser for .lst files :P 08:23:46 ... why? 08:24:35 so we could query items that are generated (particularly randarts) of games gone by. 08:24:50 that is probably a really bad way to do it. 08:25:11 have something better in mind? 08:25:18 get the dumping/morgue code to spit out an xlogfile dump of the item 08:25:46 base_type=blah:sub_type=blah:found=blah:inscription=blah:name=blah and so-on. 08:25:59 would that work for old games? 08:26:14 oh 08:26:20 no :) 08:26:25 but it's an idea fo rthe future 08:26:25 :P 08:26:38 would certainly make it easier in future. 08:27:06 in the mean time: "/usr/bin/lua: ./artparse.lua:32: Unknown quantity: Dekhip's" :/ 08:27:27 one word: regular expression 08:27:39 Is that one word now? :P 08:27:43 no 08:27:47 but jude going to sleep right now is 08:27:52 :P 08:27:58 regexp is one word! 08:28:01 I don't really see how that would help. 08:28:06 grrr lag 08:28:45 g'night due :) 08:29:27 * greensnark is also off. 08:29:32 goodnight! 08:29:36 g'night greensnark ;) 08:29:36 rest well, both of you 08:29:43 -!- greensnark has quit [Quit: Dark side of the earth] 08:29:58 I told them to use perl. 08:30:08 or python! 08:30:21 I don't see how regexes would help here. 08:30:55 this is already the exception code for things that aren't numbers, and I need to pull a quanity from somewhere... 08:30:57 no no 08:30:59 you do not see 08:31:04 regexes help with *eveything* 08:31:14 yes, especially when you evaluate text =) 08:31:16 Textmode: just use 1? 08:31:21 I guess i just ignore anything that isn't an actual number, a, an, or the. 08:31:37 default quantity = 1, update if found numbers, otherwise leave alone 08:32:12 I don't like it, though :P 08:32:18 seems inelegant. 08:32:26 Hmh, I thought I was going. Anyway, what I did imagine so far re:chests that they would be opened like doors, and would spill their contents around. Mostly flavour, but they would keep items out of monsters' paws. 08:32:32 but I guess "working" >"elegant, but broke" 08:32:33 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:33:44 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 08:34:15 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [Client Quit] 08:51:45 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:51:52 !seen Keskitalo 08:51:52 I last saw Keskitalo at Sun Feb 14 14:32:26 2010 UTC (19m 26s ago) saying Hmh, I thought I was going. Anyway, what I did imagine so far re:chests that they would be opened like doors, and would spill their contents around. Mostly flavour, but they would keep items out of monsters paws. on ##crawl-dev. 08:52:11 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:52:19 Keskitalo: yes, that is a use of chests that's Crawl-appropriate. 08:52:59 what would be the crawl-inappropriate uses? :P 08:53:23 ew...this property is broken into two lines... *sighs* 08:55:33 Textmode: a baroque interface to open and close chests, ideally with locks. 08:56:02 Textmode: maybe this is a waste of time? I'm sure you can generate tons of artefacts through lua, also for older crawl versions 08:56:45 by: the point is specifically to see what items have existed in games already played. 08:57:40 what are you trying to achieve with that information? 08:59:01 by: as far as I understood, the point was to bring up very *short* excerpts from the .lst files, especially since the .lst files will be deleted on CDO. 08:59:29 how soon? 09:00:06 whenever I am close to them, Textmode 09:00:20 :/ 09:00:24 last time e.g. when I repartitioned 09:00:39 so they're gone already :) 09:00:44 :/ 09:00:55 well, this was a fruitfull exercise. 09:02:29 does that mean theres no longer any point? 09:03:29 Textmode: I think there is a point. 09:03:34 if theres no old logs...then we can just patch crawl to give easier-to-parse dumps, at the least. or even just dump the info we are interested in. 09:03:39 A very short file made from lst could survive 09:04:42 hmm? 09:05:00 yay horns 09:05:00 The lst is deleted because it's too big. 09:05:07 syllogism: still cap! 09:05:10 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:21 dpeg: I meant that seriously :P 09:06:35 well, the new file is about 18k shorter, but if you want me to go for size, I can probably trim that down further... 09:06:56 and ofcause, thats *without* junking uninteresting items. 09:07:13 if this file would only be used for new games, it's a little insane to write and reparse the .lst file 09:07:41 aye, I say just patch the game to give shorter, and more parseable files. 09:07:57 -!- ortoslon has left ##crawl-dev 09:09:08 Vampire bat (and perhaps other forms) auto-explore. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=805) by xomg 09:12:38 hmm - many mimics (potions, scrolls, etc) call themselves "mimic" once you figure out but pile of gold coins stays "pile of gold coins" 09:16:01 -!- Vandal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17:00 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 09:18:07 -!- TGW has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:18:39 -!- TGW has joined ##crawl-dev 09:20:11 did due implement functionality just for me? <3 09:20:47 TGW: hmm? 09:21:07 02:19:47 [master 000fc42] dgn.cloud_at wrapper for TGW. 1 files changed, 19 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-) 09:23:10 hmm 09:23:14 congrats? 09:24:12 verbose labyrinth message should not be repeated (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=806) by rob 09:30:21 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:23 the point is that during the game, we *need* the full lst file 09:30:27 pointless_: Hi! 09:30:32 Hi 09:30:40 pointless_: borsuk commented on Fedhas :) 09:30:55 pointless_: take a seat, and a deep breath before reading. 09:31:03 I already saw it 09:31:06 ah, ok 09:31:21 As usual, he has a point but it way too strong in his opibnion 09:31:32 I don't have time to comment right now, will do later. 09:40:37 Eronarn: you there? I was wondering how sure you are about #49 09:42:41 "confirmed" and "assigned" are orthogonal concepts 09:54:26 what do you mean, rob? 09:56:18 that a bug can be confirmed and not assigned, confirmed and assigned, not confirmed and assigned, and not confirmed and not assigned 09:58:01 dpeg_: I replied to borsuk's comments, can you briefly check my reply for tone? (too mean/not mean enough) 09:58:08 so? 09:58:18 so what? 09:58:36 i don't see the relationship between the status "confirmed" and the status "assigned" 09:59:29 don't worry, no change required 09:59:49 mmmrrppf 10:06:01 anyways, you can have a person assigned and set the status to whatever you want... if that's what you are talking about 10:06:16 but ja - i'll just don't worry.. 10:06:19 wtf 10:20:26 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:20:36 pointless_: btw, I think the new ballistos are very good. My very slow Na^C has trouble killing them all, but the level is still not a death trap. 10:21:14 I think we could even afford to turn the generation rate back up somewhat (but I don't want to deal with that for 0.6) 10:22:33 One point: there is an indication of where to go, but it's very brief. 10:22:45 We could think about displaying that on X or so? 10:23:10 You mean the activation line or just the mold? 10:24:40 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:24:39 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:24:40 -!- Zaba has quit [Changing host] 10:34:33 TGW: wasn't there something you wantted me to look into? 10:34:40 Textmode: hm? 10:35:09 an issue on the tracker, tangenially related to spell branding...? 10:35:30 I know *someone* here wantted me to look at such a thing... 10:35:45 is fulsome being looked into or should I post a BR? 10:36:28 what's wrong with it? 10:36:37 Textmode: wasn't me, then 10:36:40 cbus: every time that gets asked, it seems the concensous is to revert it, but it never seems to happen 10:36:43 cbus: people just whine on IRC; is that "looking into"? 10:36:52 textmode, yeah, I know thats why I ask 10:37:41 what happened to fulsome? 10:37:51 by, well it was said that it was gonna get reverted but nothing happens, so I'm just asking 10:38:02 tgw, doesn't train transmut if you don't have corpses 10:38:06 oh, that 10:38:06 Well what I caight as the consensus was more to leave it how it is except make Z (as opposed to z) fake cast it for victory dancing 10:38:07 it's probably best to file a BR 10:38:28 my intention was not to keep whining but rather figure out if it was getting fixed :) 10:38:35 for the record 10:38:38 Twinge: that's a pretty unrealistic proposal I think 10:38:39 Twinge: yeah, but there also a push to ditch the Z/z dicotomy... 10:38:44 by: Oh? 10:38:46 cbus: didn't mean you whining, more the devs 10:39:03 z/Z don't cast spells in different ways so far 10:39:08 Ah. 10:39:12 ugh, alot more options when bugreporting :( 10:39:35 and you need to supply product branch even if you have CDO console? 10:39:50 cbus: I think you can leave that unset 10:39:55 Well, it does fit the concept I think; you're force-casting it even when no target (seems to be) present. 10:39:58 it has a red star next to it 10:39:59 :D 10:40:05 maybe its just soviet style 10:40:29 by: main difference between the two is that z bugs you about targets sometimes, and Z just f-king casts the beeping spell. 10:40:49 personally, I just use Z 10:41:45 if I hit the spellcast button, its safe to assume I want to cast a spell, the prompt is all the warning I need. 10:41:53 APPLICATION ERROR #11 10:41:54 A necessary field "Product Branch" was empty. Please recheck your inputs. 10:41:59 what version is trunk? 10:42:12 (on CDO)? 10:42:13 0.6 10:42:33 ugh, too many options when posting 10:42:47 even redundant ones :D 10:42:54 Twinge: 060 ~= trunk 10:44:24 -!- by has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:44:33 fulsome doesn't train transmig without a corpse (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=807) by cbus 10:51:54 not at all, cbus 10:52:11 there is more than 1 version on CDO 10:53:07 If anyone's bored, feel free to sanity check my new monster weight/size table -- http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkvD83krfS2MdHNSajZXcVA0WlBfZ0NXY0JtMmFUaVE&hl=en 10:58:23 I need a new windows binary for dgn.cloud_at :[ 11:05:28 tiles or non-tiles, TGW? 11:05:33 non-tiles 11:05:46 ok, building 11:05:54 thanks :D 11:08:04 -!- Twinge- has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:33 ??monsters 11:08:33 monsters[1/1]: Type @?monstername in this channel (or in a PM to Gretell), or see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/crawl_ss_monsters_by_name.html If you want to see the stats of a monster in trunk, use @?? instead of @? 11:10:16 why do butterflies have rCurare? 11:11:18 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:12:34 because butterflies are awesome 11:13:16 This trove needs a book of Bugginess to function. Give it the item? <--- noooooooooo 11:13:48 pointless_: the activation line is only visible very briefly 11:13:51 I demand a refund 11:14:06 -!- morik has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:15:00 done, TGW 11:15:01 there's annihilations and some randart book in a shop, guess it tried to use those? 11:15:08 thanks, napkin! 11:15:13 dpeg_: So how would drawing it in X work mechanically? 11:15:22 due :( 11:15:51 syllogism: tell him 11:16:08 pointless_: I think simply showing the activation line until there is a new one? 11:16:13 !tell due This trove needs a book of Bugginess to function. Give it the item? 11:16:13 syllogism: OK, I'll let due know. 11:16:23 pointless_: need not be done for 0.6, i.e. could be master only 11:16:47 Also folks: I know that some people are not happy with z/Z. But there is no concensus to get rid of z because I am against it. 11:16:59 We could make the line stay on the ground for a turn 11:17:20 pointless_: or that 11:20:01 dpeg_: Continuing on chests.. we could place three chests, tell that one has consumables, one has books/staves and one has weapons/armour, and make the player choose one acquirement-style. 11:20:15 -!- morik has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20:28 Keskitalo: yes, stuff like that. 11:20:45 Like acquirement but without the menu! In-game interface! 11:20:47 Chests could simply work as hiding their contents until you're on the square of the chest. 11:20:59 Keskitalo: yes, that would be done using due lua magic. :) 11:21:02 dpeg: or what about them being solid but walking into them auto-opens them? 11:21:27 Yeah, I was thinking that they could probably be made to work much like doors quite easily. 11:22:17 purge: well, that's the same thing from a console POV? 11:22:30 I don't want any keypress to operate chests. 11:22:41 Keypresses are evil! NH and D&D use them!!!1!! 11:22:54 Why is by reverting so many commits? 11:22:59 ?? makhle 11:22:59 I don't have a page labeled makhle in my learndb. 11:23:01 ?? makhleb 11:23:01 makhleb[1/3]: Makhleb wants kills and sacrifices, and provides hp/mp-for-kills, two conjuration invocations, and two summoning invocations. Note that Minor Destruction has no piety cost, so you can use it freely (though it is hungering); servants are not 100% friendly; and greater demons are effective against hydras. 11:23:09 dpeg_: They should spill their contents for a neat graphical effect! 11:23:22 ?? makhleb[2] 11:23:22 makhleb[2/3]: See {minor destruction}, {lesser servant}, {major destruction}, or {greater servant} for details on the invocations. 11:23:28 ?? makhleb[3] 11:23:28 makhleb[3/3]: Blood and souls for Makhleb! 11:23:43 Keskitalo: no keypresses! :) 11:24:47 chests would work very well by hiding their contents from any access (view, detect items, apporation). When you're on the chest, you can pickup their contents as usual. 11:25:16 then it opens the door to unique branch containers :) 11:25:34 (without keypresses of course!!) 11:25:38 purge: yes! 11:25:48 dpeg_: Well, if you insist. :) 11:26:18 Keskitalo: I have played my fair share of Nethack. Opening them adds nothing, it's on the scale of carrying lamps. 11:27:29 The spillage idea would require many more actions from the player, yeah. 11:28:18 btw what happened to eronarn? I was looking for updates on the magic system overhaul 11:28:32 I never see him talking anymore 11:28:39 he was here yesterday or so 11:28:43 dpeg_: by the way did you see this: http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref;a=commit;h=86e6b7dfd94c1d0d90d377688f9e8dcca5978a4a 11:28:58 <3 slouch 11:30:13 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 11:30:37 syllogism: yes, instant killing in the name of the slow 11:32:09 !lm rune=decaying -tv 11:32:11 7. evktalo, XL21 NaTm, T:93476 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 11:32:22 Slouch action coming up.. 11:32:58 -!- Twinge- has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:33:23 @?serpent of hell 11:33:24 Serpent of Hell (05D) | Speed: 14 | HD: 20 | Health: 80-160 | AC/EV: 12/9 | Damage: 35, 15, 15 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(346), 05hellfire, 03poison | XP: 10809 | Sp: hellfire. 11:33:29 Embarrassing typo in the ttyrec :D 11:34:11 Damn, that was a high point of the game. Especially since I nearly died to a hydra before. 11:39:13 Can someone update 0.6 on cdo please? 11:40:08 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:40:40 i keep finding armors shops with robe of archmagi (this is third or fourth) but i still havent found boots or a cap 11:40:54 pointless_: I like the plant placement indicator idea. 11:41:29 cool, you think I should try and get that in shape for 0.6? 11:43:30 pointless_: reply to borsuk is good 11:43:51 pointless_: yes (re plant growth) 11:45:33 I'll run the cdo update. 11:48:01 ?? strength 11:48:01 str[1/3]: High strength effectively boosts the weapon *base* damage by 100*(str-11)/78 % (when str >= 11). Thus, each point of strength boosts damage by ~1.28%. For example, giant spiked club (damage 20) has effective base damage 30 for a character with 50 str. 11:48:25 You feel yourself moving faster! You feel mighty! You feel yourself speed up. 11:48:25 Cheibriados forgives your accidental hurry, just this once. 11:48:29 (mutation) 11:50:03 Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a2-82-g7342b59 (16.5) 11:50:21 Thanks Keskitalo :) 11:52:41 Thanks 11:55:28 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:chests 11:55:38 syllogism: pfff :) 11:55:50 Keskitalo: obsessed by chests, eh? 11:56:03 Just a fun brainstorm. :) 11:56:10 I like that approach, if only to show the dinosaurs how to deal with chests properly =) 11:56:32 Haha. The tiles were just so nice! 12:01:35 pointless_: replied to borsuk, tell me what you think 12:02:48 * bhaak doesn't feel that that was directed at him, oddly enough 12:02:59 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 12:03:30 chests! and then they can be trapped with poison needles that can kill you instantly if you lack rPois! 12:04:09 dpeg_: sounds reasonable 12:04:19 Isn't it fun when you get to be the nice one? 12:04:41 pointless_: yes! In particular because I am the bad one so often :) 12:05:14 bhaak: Do you agree that the NH way of dealing with containers is baroque? (y/n) 12:05:22 dinner, later 12:06:01 -!- raydarken1 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:32 -!- raydarken has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:08:32 the idea on the brainstorm page is that even opened containers protect items from monsters? 12:10:11 dpeg_: binary answers? what am I? a maschinenmensch? 12:10:32 dpeg_: let's say that nethack's way of dealing with containers is d&d-realistic 12:12:03 Ah, DnD...So many happy mem--okay, thats all of them. can we burn the rulebooks now? 12:12:14 looks like I'll starve 12:12:52 or not, found cure mut 12:13:04 which you are quaffing for nutrition? 12:13:31 i had fast metabolism 2 which is bad when combined with chei 12:13:35 oh 12:13:51 is metabolism tied to absolute time? 12:13:55 because that seems less than ideal 12:13:56 yes 12:14:22 chei slows your metabolism but i don't think it compensatest he speed penatly 12:14:24 penalty 12:14:37 ??cheibriados 12:14:37 cheibriados[1/3]: The Slow God! Used to be named Chronos. New temple god in trunk. Gives piety for being full for very long periods, or for killing things faster than you -- you want to be a naga or wear ponderous. 12:14:50 I think I should make an FR 12:15:02 that sounds pretty bad, especially for cheiites 12:15:07 ??cheibriados[2] 12:15:07 cheibriados[2/3]: He slightly slows digestion (-1 hunger, half of a ring of sustenance), halves effect of poison and sickness. Abilities: {Make Ponderous} -- making a piece of armour slow you. {Time Bend} -- slows down adjacent monsters. {Slouch} -- damage to fast stuff in LOS. {Time Step} -- lets monsters go away. 12:16:57 ??cheibriados[3] 12:16:57 cheibriados[3/3]: Now gives stat boosts and resistances for every piece of ponderous armor you wear. 12:19:17 if you are wearing 5 ponderous items, you'll lose 5-6 nutrition while moving 12:19:48 though resting costs only 2 12:20:20 I can't tell if that's justifiable as flavor or not 12:54:23 I also have food issues with my NaWr^C (five four ponderous items). 12:55:27 syllogism: I bought "Faith on sight. :) 12:56:02 I find I gain piety so fast I don't need one 12:56:14 and bend time is cheap 12:56:20 syllogism: can use slouch more often :) 12:56:27 yes 12:56:31 slouching my way to the olymp =) 12:56:50 Does acquirement take into consideration, that I am a Troll, when I wish for Armour? 12:56:55 yes 12:57:02 syllogism: does your DS go into Stealth? 12:57:10 Napkin: of course 12:57:20 \o/ 12:57:22 I do train it 12:57:28 bhaak: at least I gave you a choice :) 12:57:30 pretty stealthy thanks to high dex 12:57:37 syllogism: ever used step from time yet? 12:58:01 no, I had a situation where it would have been useful but my success was only at Good so didn't want to risk it 12:58:32 there's a ghost with IOOD. Hit me for 80 damage 13:00:09 right now? 13:00:41 no, left it alone 13:01:12 got to go 13:01:28 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: cheers] 13:16:32 syllogism: did the chei bug with melding get patched? 13:16:38 yes 13:18:59 I can't find Hive for some reason, surely this can't be an entry vault 13:34:11 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:34:19 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 13:45:17 TGW: Seems like if you're going through the dungeon slowly you'd be using up less food, not more, since you're not burning calories running around... 13:45:36 So it doesn't really seem flavorful as such 13:46:49 this lich did 90 dmg with IOOD, it hit me instantly since i'm speed 5 or something 13:46:58 0.6.0-a2-82 is the prerelease version? or what 13:47:50 Step from Time saved me 13:49:10 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:50:43 @??lich 13:50:43 doy: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 13:50:44 lich (15L) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 40-120 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 1513(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(293), 02cold++, 03poison | XP: 3507 | Sp: b.cold, paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot, teleport self / b.draining, animate dead, summon undead, throw frost, crystal spear / b.fire, confuse, haste, b.draining, greater demon, banishment / mystic 13:51:24 might have to nerf monster IOOD somewhat 13:51:36 you cant fight it in melee range 13:51:44 unless you are a tank with 200+ hp 13:53:39 maybe it should build up power as it moves 13:54:04 TGW: interesting concept 13:56:03 iood from a lich looks like 8d16 damage 13:56:20 yes 13:56:47 bolt of iron was pretty inaccurate 13:56:50 can De survive that in any way if it rolls max? 13:58:33 It won't really roll max, but it can roll pretty high. 68 *average* is huge 13:59:02 (1 in 4,294,967,296 chance of rolling max ;) 14:00:42 more studly to say "OVER FOUR BILLION TO ONE AGAINST" 14:01:15 it'll happen to some poor chap, getting ohko! 14:03:26 I really need to learn more about e..g standard deviations; I don't know what a reasonably expected range of damage here is. ~90 damage is not that rare at any rate, which I can say on estimation alone. 8 dice is a lot of dice that reduced variability a fair bit though 14:04:16 lich crystal spear is 3d40, imb is 3d24, iron shot is 3d35 14:05:00 but those three can miss (although iood can be blocked) 14:06:22 So even the ever-fearded LCS is only 61.5 average 14:15:21 standard deviation of XdY is sqrt(X * (Y^2 - 1)/12) =~ sqrt(X) * (Y/2)/sqrt(3) 14:15:31 so a bit over 13 for the lich IOOD 14:17:42 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:23:34 And One Standard Deviation implies what exactly? Whate percentage of results will be within one deviation? 14:24:40 for a normal distribution it would be 68% 14:24:51 and 95% within two deviations 14:26:07 * Twinge nods 14:30:19 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:01 ??tailslap 14:34:01 tail slap[1/1]: An {auxiliary unarmed} attack you can get if you are a draconian. Damage is 6 + (stinger mutation level * 3). Add +6 for being a grey draconian. 14:34:09 ??kick 14:34:10 kick[1/2]: An {auxiliary unarmed} attack you can get if you have hooves, talons, or unarmed skill. Naga cannot kick. Damage is 5. Add +3 for talons or +5 for hooves. 14:35:53 @??naga warrior 14:35:53 naga warrior (02N) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 10 | Health: 90-110 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Damage: 28 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(80), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 747 | Sp: poison splash. 14:35:56 @??greater naga 14:35:57 greater naga (04N) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 15 | Health: 45-120 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Damage: 27 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 1580 | Sp: b.venom, mystic blast, haste, poison arrow, teleport other, teleport self. 14:36:17 isn't the monster list supposed to be sorted by difficulty or something? 14:36:20 @??anaconda 14:36:20 anaconda (15S) | Speed: 18 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 4/16 | Damage: 30 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(44) | XP: 1136. 14:40:21 !source mons_difficulty 14:40:31 Lines pasted to http://pastebin.com/m46773739 14:40:54 ...i see 14:41:05 that's pretty dumb 14:44:19 @??pandemonium lord 14:44:19 pandemonium lord (10&) | Speed: 9-17 | HD: 24 | Health: 116-235 | AC/EV: 14/15 | Damage: 50 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(26), 05fire, 03poison | XP: 5910 | Sp: (random). 14:44:26 Anyone see anything amiss about my list of sizes/weights? (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkvD83krfS2MdHNSajZXcVA0WlBfZ0NXY0JtMmFUaVE&hl=en) I think I'm about ready to start making this patch 14:47:34 wow, huge list, Twinge :) 14:50:41 Autoexclusion of safe locations (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=808) by tinyrodent 14:50:41 Napkin: Indeed - they have been assigned pretty arbitrarily in the past from what I can see, so a lot of them did not make much sense 14:51:33 looks awesome 14:53:26 Thanks. If these stats actually make sense, then they can be used in-game for more than chunks and bone shards damage :P 14:54:37 e.g. making a monster like a yak have a trample ability, where they can trample over anything tiny sized or whatever. Or spell effects relying on how heavy the target is, etc. 14:54:47 hmm monsters can partially resist hellfire with just rf+ ? 15:08:59 bleh 15:09:07 jpeg doesn't seem to understand the concept of a feature freeze 15:14:03 -!- Twinge- has joined ##crawl-dev 15:14:20 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:17:10 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 15:17:12 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:18:37 doy: The criticals on the 0.6 list does say "missing tiles (including code)", I've assumed there's some coding items ("outstanding coding issues" on the tiles missing page) that 0.6 should include. The tab buttons for inventory/spell list was the main thing on my mind. 15:19:11 -!- Twinge- has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:52 It'd probably help if those were spelled out on the wiki page. 15:20:22 that tab button commit was *huge* though 15:20:38 i just really want to avoid adding in lots of potential bugs this close to the release 15:21:02 i mean, we're down to two weeks of testing 15:21:16 and i really have no idea how often tiles players update their builds 15:23:31 downloaded 56 times today - 669 times last week, doy 15:24:47 if i may suggest - tell her, that if it goes in you would like it thoroughly checked 15:25:24 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:25 if everything goes wrong - a minor release can be pushed quickly too 15:25:34 Hey! 15:25:39 Hi David :) 15:25:39 well, my point is just that it's difficult to thoroughly check something this big with just like two weeks left 15:25:40 Already talking 'bout 0.6.1?! 15:26:01 just trying to decide what to do about jpeg's email 15:26:06 hello 15:26:11 potion of magic, potion of magic! 15:26:54 doy: what's the problem? 15:26:57 dpeg: that one i'm pretty ambivalent about, i'm just trying to lean towards "leave it out" for non-bugfixes 15:26:57 Bone Shards! 15:27:06 All the tiles stuff is okay, and Darshan also said that the !magic can go in. 15:27:13 There is absolutely no harm in that commit. 15:27:26 doy: Hehe, conservative, eh? :) 15:27:36 i'm mostly just worried about the sheer size of the new tiles code 15:27:47 considering there's just two weeks left for playtesting 15:27:53 doy: it was clear when we branched that new tiles stuff is under work and planned for 0.6. That has to go in. 15:28:28 If worst comes to worst, we release later. 15:28:31 i suppose 15:28:57 But both Enne and Johanna told me that some really important bits are lacking. Btw, Johanna wasn't happy about March 1 right away :) 15:29:12 just saying, it'd be a lot simpler if in the future, "feature freeze" actually meant something meaningful d: 15:29:33 Should list the important bits on the 0.6 page. 15:29:34 doy: hey, it does. 15:29:43 -!- Enne has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:49 Enne! 15:30:09 dpeg! 15:30:11 We installed you as release tsar so that we can postpone all the uniques, portal vaults etc. stuff to 0.7. 15:30:30 Enne: Heated debate about Johanna's mail and tiles state :) 15:30:40 Oh? 15:30:53 Whether or not the tabs should be pushed into 0.6? 15:31:25 Enne: nothing wrong with the feature itself, just trying to avoid buggy releases 15:31:43 considering march 1 is getting to be pretty close 15:31:49 22:27 <@dpeg> doy: it was clear when we branched that new tiles stuff is under work and planned for 0.6. That has to go in. 15:32:07 Enne: is that true? I understood you and Johanna like this. 15:32:18 22:28 <@dpeg> If worst comes to worst, we release later. 15:32:19 have we actually announced the march 1 release date anywhere? (other than the wiki) 15:32:27 doy: no, of course not. 15:32:59 I certainly had been hoping to get the tabs into 0.6. 15:33:03 okay 15:33:09 well 15:33:13 There was a lot of code rearranged in that check-in, but I think it's ultimately simpler than what was there before. 15:33:28 we should get together a list of features that still are required for 0.6 15:33:45 doy: afaiu, without the tabs, we force tiles players to use the key commands 15:33:48 because these need to get in with time to spare for playtesting 15:33:52 For sure. 15:33:57 That was the last big one for tiles. 15:35:10 well, "There's probably a few more to come, if we can manage in time." 15:35:32 not really sure what she's referring to there 15:35:58 but the point i'm trying to make is "in time" isn't "by the day before release" 15:36:16 so if there are still things we want to get in for 0.6, we should get an actual list together 15:36:26 and plan out the release schedule based on that 15:36:30 doy: IOOD! 15:36:33 dpeg: yes 15:36:54 i wasn't sure what the consensus was on the current state of that either 15:37:01 doy: Let me check my email conversation with jpeg and double-check. 15:37:35 doy: Yeah, I think the tabs were the only feature that I'd really want to see added. 15:37:47 Resting is slow, but that's more of a bugfix if we get around to it. 15:37:53 (Or, some people report resting is slow...) 15:39:30 I think that's been fixed 15:39:38 so the tabs thing and making a final decision about iood are the only major changes left? 15:39:56 The slow resting issue seemed to go away in recent trunk builds 15:40:14 doy: as far as I am aware, yes. 15:41:25 okay 15:42:09 i'd say that we should get those in as soon as possible, then have an actual feature freeze for last minute bug testing, for at least a week, preferably two or so before release 15:42:49 despite what greensnark may feel, there's no *actual* rush for a release(: 15:43:29 (it'd be different if we were trying to get a release out in time for the tournament or something like that) 15:45:55 Treasure Trove set gold to zero (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=809) by adrock 15:47:00 doy: Agreed. 15:51:18 I've been thinking about IOOD and the two solutions, and the more I'm thinking, the less I can choose. Splash damage: simpler to understand, nicer interface, more visual oomph, hurts a bit even if you cast a spammal. Slow arming: deals with semi-instantness of range 2-3 casts. 15:51:57 what about making the damage depend on the distance traveled? 15:52:06 doy: hey, that was my idea 15:52:11 (with a cap on the upper end) 15:53:32 The tab buttons look pretty nice. :) 15:53:40 would make little sense except as a form of slow arming -- that is, full damage at range 4. In that case, it's not a bad idea. 15:54:57 Keskitalo: Yeah, <3 jpeg's better graphics. 15:55:50 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:55 Enne: What's the best way to recompile the rltiles part without doing a full recompile? My monster tiles seem to have shifted. :) 15:56:29 I'm not really sure there's a great way? 15:56:46 I really should look into only regenerating those headers if something has changed. 15:56:51 kilobyte: damage ramp up would emphasize the use of the spell as a long-range thing a bit more 15:57:06 as in, it could reach max damage potential at a range of 6 or 7 in that case 15:57:24 full damage at range 5! 15:57:26 rather than just cutting it off below 3 or whatever 15:57:39 yeah, i'm not really concerned with the exact numbers 15:58:01 the other thing is that the first turn movement should be randomized 15:58:11 it already is, i think 15:58:14 oh? 15:58:24 yeah, i think someone added that a few days ago 15:58:25 I didn't see a commit, though I haven't tried it recently 15:58:30 neat 15:59:13 -!- Twinge- has joined ##crawl-dev 15:59:15 yeah, b850c5b4ac 16:00:32 -!- TEGS has joined ##crawl-dev 16:01:11 kilobyte: your "visual oomph" comment reminded me of something: you ask me in the IOOD wiki how putting (in the first turn after casting) the * next to the @ can help... my answer is by having it become explosive only later (distance >3, say). However, I forgot to add my take on visual oomph: the * could go a full circle around the caster (so travel through the 8 squares). Would mean that you can only use IOOD in somewhat open surroundings, which sounds spot 16:01:38 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:02:06 Enne: There's a problem with mouseover descriptions and the spell menus. Some of the descriptions don't fit into the message window with all the range etc information. 16:02:18 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:46 Keskitalo: Can you file that so it gets looked at? 16:03:31 I can't quite comprehend why it would take that circle, nor why would it have turn radius 1, and then suddenly ~5. 16:03:32 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 16:03:47 Enne: Yes, I will. 16:03:50 -!- Twinge- has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:04:14 kilobyte: magic! 16:05:46 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:05:48 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 16:06:43 kilobyte: the conjuration process would need one turn (and the "once around the caster" visuals), simply because it's cool and seemingly a complex affair. 16:07:10 The gameplay effect is clear, right? 16:07:39 dpeg: i'm not sure that would be visually clear what's going on 16:09:17 doy: I don't think that's a problem. You cast the spell at some target, you will only be able to do it if the eight adjacent squares are empty, so you try that. Then you see the effect and the * homing in at the target. What's not to understand? 16:10:30 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10:59 hmmm, i guess the smoke trails would make it not that bad 16:10:59 1. Why you would need the eight adjacent squares for? 2. It would break if player's speed is not 10. 3. No one would see that "circle around" effect since we display things during the turns, not in-between. 16:11:09 well,just an idea to make the spell less overpowered 16:11:16 (3) is what i was referring to 16:11:23 4. turn radius, again 16:11:29 We do have visuals! 16:11:40 Yrdy prayer effect etc. 16:11:44 I was thinking about WoW and D&D 4th Ed, and how they have "spells" for melee characters. That got me thinking about how the existing spell system in DCSS could be used for combat maneuvers, with spell hunger and success determined by Fighting instead of Spellcasting. Before I put any work into this, does this sound like something that would fit in DCSS? 16:11:59 TEGS: broadly speaking: no 16:12:00 dpeg: so do you mean the circling effect should be instant? 16:12:06 doy: yes 16:12:10 hmmm 16:12:19 TEGS: D&D4 is made of 100% pure concentrated suck. 16:12:23 that's also weird 16:12:31 it would just be graphic fluff with the limitation that you need open space to do it 16:12:51 kilo: That's not the point, though. The idea would be to make melee combat more interesting than just hitting the directional keys. 16:13:11 TEGS: "by making it more like magic" 16:13:13 TEGS: this is a noble idea, but making melee more spell-like is the wrong approach. 16:13:24 if you want to play something that's like a magic-user, then play a magic user 16:13:51 TEGS: we already have things like weapon branding spells, transmutations, enchantments like haste and berserk, etc 16:14:08 try playing a crusader sometime, it's pretty fun 16:14:09 TEGS: we have fairly concrete ideas about what to do and we are trying to get 0.6 out of the door... let me say just this: abilities will come, they will be tied to weapons and to stats and they will all be passive (no abilities). 16:14:21 erm :) 16:14:30 so passive abilities, not active ones, ok 16:14:49 doy: I have, but that's still magic based. I'm thinking something non-magical that simply uses the magic system. 16:14:56 dpeg: Ah, OK. That sonds promising. 16:15:00 TEGS: answer is no 16:15:04 TEGS: well, that's what i'm saying isn't really desirable 16:15:05 (: 16:15:35 TEGS: search on SF for keywords "tactic" or "maneuv" 16:15:42 Will do 16:16:26 See, this is why I thought I'd bring it up on IRC rather than posting it as an idea. :-p 16:16:33 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 16:17:04 wait, have we really not closed the sf trackers yet? 16:17:13 dpeg: i thought you were going to do that d: 16:18:12 Hmm. Neither tactic or maneuv bring up anything on SF. I'll keep searching. 16:18:19 Keskitalo: Can you tell me what you think of the silence overlay? I tried to make something that looked ok against multiple backgrounds and on top of sanctuary. 16:18:26 doy: you can still read there, no? 16:18:38 Yeah, need to close them in Feb. :) 16:18:43 TEGS: use "weapon". Also, don't comment there. 16:18:46 dpeg: yes, but people are still posting things there 16:19:17 Enne: I'll check it out. (Doing that clean compile now :)) I'll probably go to sleep before it finishes though. 16:19:37 Keskitalo: Ok, no hurry. Just wanted a second opinion. :) 16:19:38 dpeg: http://nethack-de.sourceforge.net/nethack_poll_results.txt (my valuable comments will be posted tomorrow or so) 16:20:50 bhaak: do you want comments on grammar and typos? =) 16:21:16 Johanna is working so hard :O 16:21:20 dpeg: I'll take either :) 16:21:39 "non-existent" 16:22:24 Ah, there we go. Silly me, I was checking the brainstorm pages. 16:22:27 bhaak: let's move to ##crawl-offtopic today, okay? This channel is actually in use. 16:23:31 bhaak: come over :) 16:24:05 that's the crux if there is no stalled development :) 16:25:32 Is there any way to stage the revert of a commit, so I can only revert part of it? 16:26:09 git revert -n 16:26:45 Thanks, doy. Not sure how I missed that in the help text. *embarrassed* 16:33:34 well, after any commit you can still edit everything until you push. Easiest ways are 'git reset HEAD^', 'git commit --amend', and, for editing commits other than the last, 'git rebase -i HEAD~10' (any number will do) 16:34:59 One of these days I'll be able to work through all my Perforce brainwashing. :) 16:35:15 Thanks for those suggestions too. 16:36:35 does Perforce allow you to edit commit history? 16:36:54 how did Perforce come up? 16:38:06 -!- TEGS has left ##crawl-dev 16:38:26 I just brought it up because I wasn't thinking about it in a git way, that I could just fix things post-commit. 16:38:42 Perforce certainly doesn't. 16:38:55 I think you can edit commit messages post-commit, but that's about it. 16:40:54 the thing about git is that it's decentralized 16:41:06 until you say 'push' the commits are just files on your disk 16:41:15 you can do whatever you want with them 16:41:26 I'm reading it's Wikipedia article, and it seems to me that Perforce is weaker SVN. 16:42:13 -!- TEGS has joined ##crawl-dev 16:43:39 -!- TEGS has left ##crawl-dev 16:44:15 kilobyte: They're pretty equivalent. 16:46:05 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 16:53:59 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 17:01:07 bah 17:01:07 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:01:20 Did syllogism get the same message by any chnace? 17:01:25 hi enne 17:01:28 !messages 17:01:28 (1/1) syllogism said (5h 45m 15s ago): This trove needs a book of Bugginess to function. Give it the item? 17:01:31 Hey, due. :) 17:01:43 oh 17:03:26 due, my game asked for "a healing." all I did was pay to make it perm and the game is still going so you can grab my save if you need to 17:03:36 st_: That's a wand of healing. 17:03:50 but thanks, will leech it off you 17:03:55 what version is CDO running at the minute? 17:03:56 due!!!1! 17:04:05 i am not here 17:04:11 it is too early, I should be in bed 17:04:13 okay 17:05:24 Why do people keep pulilng my FR of f course? 17:06:46 Did anyone get my follow up comments on the AC nerf? 17:07:36 I did 17:07:45 I have no idea what to do with it so I still have it 17:08:07 yes, I didn't understand them 17:08:57 due: ##crawl says a unique just spawned inside a mutagenic fog chamber 17:09:01 is this supposed to happen? 17:09:35 it can't 17:09:55 it uses simple polymorph rules 17:10:07 so unless polymorph is broken and is selecting uniques... 17:10:29 DrPraetor: sure. But I don't think we should change the formulas for 0.6. 17:10:47 due: no, the unique was placed in the vault 17:10:54 due: and was immediately polymorphed 17:11:06 ah 17:11:41 !tell greensnark Transparent vaults strike again! Kirke and her band got placed in a mutagenic fog chamber. Is that a transparency issue? 17:11:41 due: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 17:18:16 grrrr 17:19:16 :) 17:20:07 due: my NaWr^C died. Without using step from time. Sniff. 17:23:15 st_: Can you save quickly for me? 17:23:32 I'm not playing right now 17:23:38 excellent 17:26:03 bugger 17:26:24 sorry :/ 17:26:31 I don't think I can fix it for you 17:27:02 oh it's fine, only cost me 150 gold or so 17:27:08 oh good 17:29:03 @dpeg - Based on my playtesting, I think it's worth making the change before 0.6. Of course, I like my new formulas, other people may not be convinced. But my playtesting was certainly consistent with low level ftrs being less survivable. 17:29:30 DrPraetor: which combos? 17:31:34 what's wrong with fighters being more dififcult to start? they're hiddeously easy to start in 0.5. 17:33:00 st_: Fixed, but I can't repair your game, I'm sorry. :/ 17:33:25 I wouldn't give up a wand of healing anyway :P 17:34:24 :) 17:34:39 yeah, I think I need to rebalance the loot now that we're askeing for serious stuff. 17:34:42 st_: you could get TWO wands of healing :) 17:34:50 due: will do the wands right now 17:35:08 no vault with wands! 17:35:23 ? 17:35:31 ah, for loot 17:36:28 Alternate tiles used for unmarked projectiles (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=810) by Nobody 17:36:51 dpeg: I think we need tobalance the loot slightly more. 17:37:19 Enne: Do you know if you can wrap a WEIGT: statement in a vault with a Lua if/else? Will that actually make a difference in its weight? 17:37:33 IE, "if you.blah() then" "WEIGHT: 10" ": else" "WEIGHT: 100". 17:37:40 due: Yes, that should work. 17:38:32 oh, excellent. 17:38:39 due: I never had a close look at the loot. 17:38:52 dpeg: What do you think about weighting the weapon rooms away from people with unarmed combat, and the book room away from non-spellcasters? 17:39:04 -!- Siber has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:39:04 not making it impossible, just slightlty rarer. 17:40:16 due: that's fine 17:41:49 OrFi, DwFi, OrPa, DwPa? 17:42:54 The GDR nerf hurts more than I would've expected, and the strictly-proportional way in which armor penalties are reduced makes medium armor like scale mail more cumbersome at low armour skill. 17:42:59 For attack rolls, I mean. 17:43:03 Not for EV itself. 17:43:46 So a fighter in scale mail both hits less now (ouch) and takes somewhat more random damage, which combined raise the lethality of a hobgoblin significantly? 17:44:34 DrPraetor: I am not saying that your new numbers shouldn't be used. I am just not convinced they have to be used for 0.6. 17:45:50 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:45:51 They're more conservative in that they produce values more similar to those from the previous version? 17:46:16 It's a testing regime that I didn't consider much until Borsuk pointed it out. 17:46:36 Enne: Did you see the runed dart tile bug? 17:50:27 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 17:51:20 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 17:52:55 DrPraetor: It is extremely hard to change this based on one report at this time. 17:55:06 Well, it's not the end of the world, although I hate to have it go out with those formulas when the ones I put in the e-mail are, I think, pretty clearly superior. 17:55:33 But deadlines are deadlines and I just didn't have the mental energy to look at it until yesterday. 17:55:48 -!- purge has quit [Quit: !] 17:57:50 @??fire elemental 17:57:50 fire elemental (05E) | Speed: 13 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 504(fire) | Flags: 11non-living, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 10elec++, 03poison | Vul: 12cold | XP: 195. 17:58:33 -!- Spads has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:59:26 DrPraetor: yes, unless there's more urgent-sounding reports coming in, this has to wait until at least 0.6.1. 18:04:09 Well, read my God. I'm very pleased with this one: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:it_that_was_bound#it_that_was_bound 18:04:28 Important point: It is not a pronoun, "It" is It's name. 18:04:46 DrPraetor: will report on it later. Is the wasp god also by you? 18:08:27 Yeah, wasp god was also by me. 18:08:32 But I like the fear power for this guy better. 18:09:08 !tell doy Can you cherry-pick 720f1fa and 26e834e? Thanks! 18:09:08 due: OK, I'll let doy know. 18:10:22 DrPraetor: wasp and eating gods are two I want to move from the "collected gods" to dedicated pages 18:11:18 sup dpeg, I'm going to try beating your game again :) I want to write the descriptions still, I just need to fight more of the monsters 18:12:02 I haven't lost any of the stuff I already did 18:12:10 (all .. 5 of them?) 18:18:14 Issue re: the wasp god. He kinda wants to be an unarmed combat god (evil kung fu! Poison fists! Mustaches!) but unarmed combat is already insanely good, so... 18:18:53 Vandal: hey, five good descriptions for early monsters is great! Send them over :) 18:19:13 DrPraetor: we should pool our player god stuff on a wiki page. 18:19:35 dpeg: Did you read Frederick? 18:21:36 due: yes! I liked it a lot. 18:21:44 most of it was sorear 18:21:50 though about a third was stuff I came up with 18:22:01 yes, I've been there :) 18:22:05 :) 18:22:10 The player god stuff I haven't written, but feel free. 18:22:11 did you see frances also?I am very happy with her now. 18:22:23 That is, feel free to use anything from my other posts that you like. 18:23:48 dpeg I forget how you'd like to receive them, email? 18:23:58 I can dcc send files over IRC 18:24:26 due: about Wayne: the improvements you suggested are so much better than my version. Could you please correct the other lines as well? 18:24:45 kilobyte: Sure 18:24:57 kilobyte: I've got Louise to do next, but I'll work on Wayne some more tonight or so. 18:25:49 what does dgn.create_monster do if you're standing on the cell? 18:25:54 I can commit your suggestions, but it may be handy for doy to have it in a single commit. 18:26:10 adjacent cell? 18:26:13 TGW: goes "oh noes, can't put monsters here! ranom placement YAY" 18:26:18 *random 18:26:20 like, completely random? 18:26:23 Yup. 18:26:24 Oh 18:26:26 Kiku vault 18:26:32 no 18:26:32 !tell due Commit the kiku vault fix today. 18:26:32 due: OK, I'll let due know. 18:26:37 imp factory 18:26:46 No, you reminedd me. 18:26:46 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 18:26:50 how does tukima handle it? 18:26:51 Henzell: Tell me later! 18:27:03 like, if I go over and stand next to the machine 18:27:09 hm. 18:27:17 it doesn't try and place if you're there 18:27:43 if (you_x == x and you_y == y) then return end 18:27:44 if dgn.mons_at(x, y) then return end 18:27:46 does nothing 18:27:48 anyway, time to go 18:27:54 !tell due Read your messages! 18:27:54 due: OK, I'll let due know. 18:28:44 Vandal: mail is good, yes 18:31:44 due: thanks 18:32:32 How have the recent AC / EV changes effected monsters? 18:32:49 Not at all? 18:33:52 due: frederick speach is in? 18:34:13 sorear: yes, I saw ot 18:34:14 it 18:36:15 Point of order: are all monsters eventually going to have tiles representing the armour they are wearing? 18:36:39 presumably 18:36:45 but there will always be console 18:36:59 So, Angels would probably be changed at some point to actually wear armour and not just have 10 AC? 18:37:59 I'd like to submit a ticket about this I guess 18:38:13 no, thats there base ac, they can wear armour over that 18:38:27 They don't though 18:38:36 Well they wear robes sometimes, Daevas do I think 18:38:42 monsters will continue to have base ac 18:38:42 doy: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 18:38:47 !messages 18:38:47 (1/2) dpeg said (11h 21m 36s ago): For the change you chose not to cherry-pick (e.g. my change of the !magic weight), will the changelog be lost? 18:38:49 !messages 18:38:49 (1/1) due said (29m 41s ago): Can you cherry-pick 720f1fa and 26e834e? Thanks! 18:38:56 doy certainly, not every monster is capable of wearing armour 18:39:09 speaking of angels, they can get high-end weapons now, and there are three vaults which spawn them. 18:39:15 oh my 18:39:27 sounds awesome 18:39:30 kilobyte: same applies to hell knights 18:39:59 This may become less of an issue if we actually spawn them somewhere other than Abyss-once-in-50-games. 18:40:06 Monsters have armour but do they have armour *skill*? 18:40:12 no Praetor 18:40:13 DrPraetor: monsters have no skills 18:40:14 they have base AC 18:40:15 they don't have any skills 18:40:15 I know they have virtual weapon skills. 18:40:22 For pain brands and the like. 18:40:24 virtual weapon skills? 18:40:25 oh 18:40:37 not really 18:40:55 There were a few other things that checked skills for players and checked some function of HD for monsters. 18:40:56 ??pain[2] 18:40:57 pain[2/2]: Brand which inflicts 1d(necromancy skill) extra damage on necro+1 out of 8 successful hits. Does not affect those with rneg (demons, undead, shadow dragons, death drakes, Daevas). Available as a temp brand (Excruciating Wounds - L5 ench/necro; Unlife) but not affixable. (For the record, a monster's necromancy skill is HD/3, HD/2 if undead.) 18:41:03 roight 18:41:24 Don't monsters get some virtual skill adjustment with missile weapons as well? 18:41:58 Or do they just crunk their base melee damage onto the missile? 18:42:06 b 18:42:10 the second, i believe 18:42:15 hmmm 18:42:22 there might be an hd adjustment though 18:42:47 All I've noticed is that any time a (foo) warrior picks up a crossbow, you should run. 18:43:21 Seriously, skelly warriors with xbows are probably more lethal than they really should be. 18:43:57 deep elf knights/blademasters and orc knights/warlords are also pretty ridiculous 18:45:17 @??orc knight 18:45:17 orc knight (10o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 36-99 | AC/EV: 2/13 | Damage: 25 | Res: 06magic(36) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 688. 18:45:19 btw, just wanna say I've been brought up to date on a lot of the recent changes and I like them. Berserk and Heavy Armour (especially HA casting) needed it. 18:45:20 @??skeleton warrior 18:45:20 unknown monster: "skeleton warrior" 18:45:25 @??skeletal warrior 18:45:25 skeletal warrior (10z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 50-80 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 814 | Sp: animate dead. 18:45:55 It is also nice that Str is much more important for armour users 18:50:06 Vandal: hey, thanks for testing 18:53:17 Angels will change dramatically soon 18:53:18 due: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 18:53:23 I'm starting the holy monsters overhaul when I get back from holiday 18:53:26 sorear: yes, Frederick is in 18:53:28 oh, neat due 18:53:39 due: I read the speech file 18:53:58 excellent 18:54:05 thanks for your help with it! 18:54:05 my issue applies to more than just angels though, potentially, unless they're the only humanoid shaped and sized creature wit han armour graphic but no actual armour 18:54:16 Vandal: they're not. 18:54:21 Didn't think so 18:54:24 Vandal: but don't rely on tiles as the canoonical indication of armour. 18:54:37 plenty of monsters visually appear to have armour in their tiles but don't always get amrour. 18:54:45 Also, angels are going bye-bye in the holy monster overhaul. 18:54:48 Inconsistency is bad :[ 18:54:52 ah ok 18:54:53 what's frederick's theme? 18:54:58 well that saves me from having to write their descript 18:55:06 Vandal: But they dod need a description for 0.6! 18:55:12 bleh 18:55:15 it's okay 18:55:17 he's such a terrifying unique 18:55:19 what they've got at the minuute will do 18:55:21 Wait, why are we removing angels? 18:55:30 DrPraetor: because they're bland and horribly, horribly boring. 18:55:31 Mu_: Arrogant badass who thinks you're pathetic 18:55:37 do not worry, they'll be replaced by something more interesting. 18:55:44 most likely cherubim. 18:55:46 So we're replacing them with Seraphs, Cherubim, etc.? 18:55:51 neat 18:55:58 No 18:56:05 No seraphs, just cherubim. 18:56:08 No seraphs? 18:56:11 I'm not taking the Judaeo-Christian theme that far. 18:56:25 One moment 18:56:40 * DrPraetor likes his Exosi and his Archangels and all. 18:57:42 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=DCSS%3Aissue%3A4 18:59:30 We really need CIA back. 18:59:51 Yeah. 19:01:40 yeah, i'm getting kinda annoyed by that too 19:02:00 I knew what CIA was at one point.. 19:02:17 let me finish cherry-picking, and i'll see what i can do about getting it integrated into ashenzari 19:02:48 <3 doy 19:03:06 oh right, the build bot 19:03:26 its the commit bot 19:03:29 doy, what are you cherry picking and who is ashenzari? 19:03:40 DrPraetor: doy is our relase manager for 0.6 branch 19:03:42 is a bot in here 19:03:49 and ashenzari is the bot that reports from Mantis/wiki. 19:03:50 DrPraetor: Ashenzari is my bot that announces new issues and wiki pages 19:03:56 and handles logging the channel 19:04:01 btw due nice wiki page 19:04:03 Ah, gotcha :) 19:04:54 if anyone wants to add features to Ashenzari by the way, the repository is here http://github.com/doy/crawlbot 19:05:26 perl? 19:05:33 yup 19:05:41 ah, I don't know perl 19:05:46 you should 19:05:48 ! 19:05:49 (: 19:06:03 There isn't an item flag for god gifts? 19:07:03 -!- Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:07:36 ... god gift items rely purely on "god gift" as the inscription 19:07:36 argh 19:09:27 heh 19:11:27 hmmm 19:11:43 is this experimental visualization order for fedhas stuff important for 0.6? 19:11:51 Humanoid Monsters and Armour (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=811) by Vandal 19:11:55 i have no idea what it's intended to do 19:13:16 btw, would anyone be willing to talk about Stabbing in 0.7? Or is the 0.7 list of important stuff already decided on? 19:13:37 i think we've got our hands ful for 0.7 as it is 19:13:42 oh my 19:13:43 that fast eh? 19:13:51 depends on what you mean by 'talk about stabbing' 19:14:02 Well stabbing / blade consolidation, my old soapbox 19:14:04 well, demonspawn are on the list, holy monsters, god conducts, finishing god overhauls. 19:14:17 Does .7 have a shorter time frame than .6 did? 19:14:23 i think the general weapon overhaul was being considered for 0.7 at least 19:14:32 Vandal: not in particular 19:14:48 I see, thanks 19:14:57 well 19:15:01 0.6's timeframe was massive 19:15:09 Vandal: but we have to start with a smaller list of goals, since important things have this tendency to come up in the course of development 19:15:16 Most a year wasn't it? 19:15:20 and then it's "ZOMG ZOMG WE MUST FIX THIS" 19:15:22 but that isn't necessarily a bad thing 19:15:34 so if we already have a huge list of goals, it makes it a lot harder to handle things when they come up 19:15:34 like... AC nerf. 19:15:43 I see 19:15:51 though that was always on the list 19:16:05 doy: also, please don't merge the joseph changes into 0.6 19:16:09 due: i'm not 19:16:12 doy: i think him spawning with a sling as an early game threat needs much more testing. 19:16:19 excellent 19:16:22 due: i'm not merging anything in that actually changes game balance 19:16:29 unless it's an actual bugfix 19:16:34 yeah 19:16:42 like troves stealing all ur monies 19:16:57 hehe 19:17:03 wit, i have it! 19:17:03 yeah, you need to get troves working! 19:17:03 Would it be bad form to make a wiki page about things I'd like to see in 0.7? 19:17:04 (: 19:17:16 Vandal: you could add some comments to the 0.7 targets page 19:17:18 Vandal: add them to the 0.7 page that already exists 19:17:20 ah 19:17:20 do we hav ean 0.7 targets page? 19:17:23 ah 19:17:24 Vandal: there is a wiki with 0.7 stuff 19:17:25 excellent 19:17:40 thanks 19:17:47 dpeg: what are these fedhas visualization order stuff supposed to do 19:18:14 maybe I can even bring myself to the point of being able to do more than just point out suspicious lines of code to due during the .7 dev process 19:18:40 Vandal: or start long, drawn out arg^H^H^Hdebates? :) 19:18:54 ^H^H^H ? 19:18:58 backspace :) 19:19:01 oh 19:19:03 heh 19:19:16 Well I think there is a lot of value in civil debate and discussion 19:19:17 I think we need ISFLAG_GOD_GIFT 19:19:30 there is actually code that relies on god gift being in the inscription for it to actually be considered a god gift 19:19:41 ISFLAGs are cheap 19:19:48 due: yes, definitely 19:19:50 don't hesitate to add one 19:19:52 yeah 19:19:58 but the inscription *is user clearable*. 19:20:13 does the inscription do anything? 19:20:44 grepping god\ gift finds a couple of instances of inscription.find("god gift") 19:20:54 why? 19:20:56 Is there a 0.7 page besides the Holy Monster Overhaul ? 19:21:02 Vandal: yes 19:21:22 however 19:21:31 it may not actually use the inscription for anyything significant 19:21:33 Pardon my lack of investigative skill, but I don't see it 19:21:34 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:0.7_features 19:21:54 ah 19:22:00 hidden behind release plans :) 19:22:12 due: yeah, those aren't doing anything important 19:22:17 hm 19:22:22 just handling the inscription properly when stacks are merged 19:22:23 did nrook's books not make it to 0.6? 19:22:29 still, ISFLAG_GOD_GIFT would be nice 19:22:32 when some of them have god gift inscriptions and some don't 19:22:33 but yeha 19:22:39 TGW: no, didn't thin kthey would 19:22:49 having gods be able to care about when you use their gifts would be cool 19:22:57 TGW: you can always get down on bended knees and beg doy. 19:23:00 doy: that would be really, really annoying 19:23:18 TGW: i don't see how you can make any kind of judgement like that 19:23:19 well 19:23:22 without any more details 19:23:26 i mean, nemelex already does it 19:23:29 there should be flavour messages like 'Okawaru does not care for you using his gifts to butcher meat!' 19:23:37 even if there is no significance to the message 19:23:39 it'd still be cool. 19:23:48 weapon moves ? what does that line mean? 19:23:49 "god gift" != "acquirement" in general d: 19:23:50 god/player interaction is *seriously* boring beyond the "oh hi I want to activate ability" 19:24:07 or "zomg yay a gift! <333". 19:24:20 Vandal: things likes cleaves and charges i believe 19:24:20 also what is "full design available" ? does that mean traps are already done being designed? 19:24:27 ah 19:24:28 yes 19:24:32 cool 19:24:39 traps design is somewhere onwiki or sf. 19:25:34 we also have Eronarn's Tha Bigge Liste. 19:25:48 doy: thanks! 19:26:05 doy: they make it safer to use growth with fewer than max fruits. 19:26:23 hey neat, you guys linked my Halfling page 19:26:25 <3 19:27:21 Are you sure I should edit that 0.7 Plan page? I don't want to add my personal wish list to it because it looks like it is stuff you guys have already decided you'll work on 19:27:31 doy: the god works well without, but making a new feature as easy to use as possible is also good. 19:27:32 Vandal: add a section to the bottom "comments by vandal" or something. 19:27:38 ok 19:27:43 Since I have my sights on 0.7, I don't really care. :) 19:27:56 dpeg does't care about 0.6 any more. 19:28:30 0.6 is shipping. The boat has sailed. 19:28:35 maybe dpeg is like me values that which he doesn't have yet more than what he already has :) 19:28:48 dpeg: i just haven't played fedhas far enough to see what use that might be, and the commit message makes it sounds pretty experimental 19:28:52 vandal: can I strikethrough the halfling stuff that's in the game? 19:28:57 SE hp, 90 shd 19:29:04 Sure TGW 19:29:15 still recompiling :((( 19:29:21 It is a wiki page :) feel free to modify any wiki pages I've made 19:29:37 I would really like it if more people would participate in the Stab / Blade Consolidation pages 19:30:24 doy: shall I update CD? 19:30:38 due: sure 19:32:17 I like knives, they weigh less than daggers and I just use them as a tool :) 19:32:24 are there any objections to my unnerfing the size of god missile gifts? specificalaly needles and poisoned darts: 3 poisoned darts seems like a pathetic gift. 19:32:33 DrPraetor you won't need Knives in 0.7 19:32:41 It will be assumed you have a tool that can cut a corpse up 19:32:45 No item required 19:32:51 it will? 19:32:53 since when? 19:33:01 I thought that is what "implicit" means 19:33:16 i thought that was merely for sacrifice? 19:33:23 no.. 19:33:28 you really didn't hear about this yet? 19:33:32 For sacrifice it is already in 0.6. 19:33:35 I haven't heard about it either. 19:33:43 it was the basis for my entire Stabbing page 19:33:58 well actually *I* may be confused right now 19:34:06 but weapon swapping to butcher is being removed 19:34:11 Vandal: no, you misunderstood "implicit" 19:34:13 I assumed this means you wouldn't need the weapon 19:34:53 doy: no sweat with leaving the growth visuals to 0.7. 19:35:12 So dpeg, you DO want the player to have to have a dagger / knife / natural butcher appendage? 19:35:16 yes 19:35:31 Oh ok :) 19:35:51 Vandal: the point is that the steps (1) and (3) in (1) wield tool, (2) butcher, (3) unwield tool are not shown anymore. 19:36:04 If you have a tool and can use it, you just do that. 19:36:04 Not shown, or don't happen? 19:36:06 that aspect is not incredibly important, i don't think 19:36:16 doy: what aspect? 19:36:20 it's just a single inventory slot for certain characters 19:36:28 dpeg: whether the physical item is actually required or not 19:36:33 cursed weapons! 19:36:37 dpeg it is a time thing 19:36:38 mace vs axe 19:36:47 too 19:36:53 dpeg: well, cursed weapons could all be part of the 'implicit' bit 19:37:03 and the mace vs axe thing i don't think is incredibly important 19:37:05 Are you saying you don't see the butcher spam of swapping weapons, or you actually don't swap weapons? 19:37:08 but meh, i don't really care either way 19:37:17 most people dont care i believe 19:37:23 doy: I had interesting games from the fact that shallow D would not give a blade :) 19:37:47 dpeg: except that d:1 is guaranteed to have a blade these days 19:37:50 ef is interesting combination of keys 19:37:55 doy: wat 19:38:12 we force generation of a knife on d:1 19:38:22 What is important, imo: butchery should take some turns, so you cannot use it trivally to get food or get rid of corpses; cursedness of weapons should matter. 19:38:30 yes, i agree with those 19:38:33 doy: no, not forced, iirc. 19:38:46 I had an OgWr without tool yesterday =) 19:38:49 so wait 19:39:06 you're back to requiring equipping a weapon to butcher, and using the turns, but just not reporting it? 19:39:09 how does that change anything? 19:39:20 less spam I guess 19:39:31 Vandal: no more "would you like to switch back from your butchering weapon" nonsense 19:39:48 I've never actually used that prompt 19:40:00 well here I was thinking it would all be like the new sac'ing 19:40:05 I just hit escape (twice, for some reason) and finish or wield manually 19:40:08 I mean still taking turns to butcher 19:40:15 but I didn't think you'd actually still swap weapons 19:40:23 or require having one in your inventory 19:40:23 you wouldn't 19:40:27 you would 19:40:41 oh .. ok 19:40:44 btw 19:40:45 yeah, the weapon swapping won't actually physically happen 19:40:57 it'll just have restrictions as though it does 19:40:59 it's like throwing, where you also don't manually wield the thing 19:41:01 I would love you forever if this was how Stabbing worked 19:41:12 meh 19:41:16 We cannot design based on love, unfortunately. 19:41:28 that has actual gameplay effects, not all of which are desirable 19:41:31 We do design based on madness, though. 19:42:07 I think the tedium of constant weapon swapping and inventory buggery being absent would more than make up for any negatives 19:42:10 Vandal: yes, doy has the point. The butchery bit is carefully worded so as to make it strictly interface-only. The stabbing bit is far beyond that. 19:42:32 I am not saying it's bad, but it's clearly controversial. 19:42:34 but I won't get into it right now :) 19:42:50 I'll update my arguments on the wiki at some point to reflect this new info about butchering 19:42:50 ah, there's a 50% chance of generating a knife on each of the first 4 dlvls 19:43:32 my head, it needs not ache so much. 19:43:44 Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a2-99-gd196a16 (16.5) 19:44:00 btw 19:44:12 There isn't a page about weapon reform w/ special attack properties yet is there? 19:44:17 I'll go ahead and make one if not 19:44:42 dpeg: TGW quit ##crawl yesterday. :D 19:44:45 Vandal: what do you mean by that? 19:45:08 sorear: leaving a trail of blazing flames? 19:45:11 dpeg wants stuff like cleave 19:45:23 but I don't think there is any documentation yet? 19:45:37 Vandal: we are trying to get 0.6 out. Hold your breath for a bit :) 19:45:37 there will be an SF item about it somewhere 19:45:40 its on sourceforge i believe 19:45:43 yes 19:45:52 oh I know dpeg, but I'm referencing this on the 0.7 Plan page 19:45:53 sorear: you know why he left? 19:46:07 so I figured I would make a page for it if it doesn't exist 19:46:11 dpeg: to spend more time with you 19:46:15 dpeg: because ##crawl sucks? 19:46:15 (: 19:46:29 TGW: ah, I see :) You left ##crawl but not crawl. 19:46:39 ##crawl is very important to the continued success of the game :o 19:46:56 no, it's not. 19:47:07 though it could be renamed ##crawl-newbiehelp 19:47:26 due: well, it is, but not necessarily in a "we need to listen to their ideas" sense 19:47:29 i think they are referring to the excessive whining that happens in crawl for any change though 19:47:30 technically it could 19:47:30 players are important 19:47:31 (: 19:47:40 right, what doy said 19:48:06 only from the "they play the game and find bugs" aspect, though. we could use trained mice for this instead. 19:48:11 Every person who gets a question answered in ##crawl is potentially going to answer that same question for other people as well 19:48:19 and get more people interested / playing 19:48:28 I got friends to try it who aren't in IRC :) 19:48:30 I would like to say that a good social environment helps players and the game, but then, there are many players who know nothing but SA. 19:49:25 personally, I find that SA has become better and ##crawl has become worse; must be some conservation law 19:49:40 hehe 19:49:52 I dunno, I haven't actually paid attention to ##crawl in a month or so 19:50:02 wasn't playing.. 19:50:06 syllogism has been bashing some heads in the SA thread ;-) 19:51:11 !messages 19:51:11 (1/2) due said (1h 24m 39s ago): Commit the kiku vault fix today. 19:51:21 yes, SA has players who understand our design and speak up (##crawl too, of course) 19:51:46 i think people have stopped speaking up in ##crawl because ##crawl-dev exists 19:51:52 and so ##crawl goes downhill 19:51:58 have seen that effect before elsewhere 19:52:14 this seems to be true, people ask what the dev channel is now 19:52:19 doy: yes, of course 19:52:37 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:53:03 ##crawl could use some moderation imo, beyond "don't use the word gay as an insult" 19:53:25 due is vest being split up then ? 19:53:37 Vandal: someone will grow into this, over time 19:53:43 Mu_: possibly. 19:54:11 subvaultsß 19:54:19 ye 19:54:20 dpeg: si 19:54:28 (dpeg is actually a naga) 19:54:33 (he hissessss!) 19:54:33 Well I can do it, but it takes more than 1 person to create a climate of change 19:54:45 Vandal: it also takes motivation. 19:55:47 Mu_: I think I fixed all the things you pm'ed me about for wizlabs 19:55:54 ye i saw 19:55:57 Just my $0.02, moderation would improve ##crawl more than anything else I can think of 19:55:57 Mu_: can you take a look? cigotuvi's monster will have to wait until 0.7, unfotunately 19:56:17 due: except I think the meph thing :p 19:56:17 Vandal: it's rax's channel, so you'd really have to talk to her about that. 19:56:21 Mu_: ah, meph. hm. 19:56:28 what is badly wrong with crawl that it needs moderation that much? oO 19:56:35 ##crawl* 19:56:46 moderate the game! 19:56:53 I am not sure about moderation, it needs guidance. 19:57:08 well yeah dpeg, but the same person would fulfill both roles 19:57:15 people 19:57:25 eith: this isn't a phenomenon specific to crawl 19:57:41 it is just an issue with the internet in general 19:57:43 this is pretty common to 'gamers' in general, in large enough numbers 19:57:49 and yeah, 'internet' 19:57:51 true 19:58:01 due: i also think the loot in all of them needs to be redone before release tbh, really weird distribution mainly. 19:58:24 Mu_: yeah 19:58:24 anonymity makes people behave rudely 19:58:33 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 19:58:45 not just kids either 19:58:53 i think crackin vest into pizza slices is beyond my notepad skills :p 19:59:23 Mu_: yeah. I'm not sure it's really doable... needs further investigation. 19:59:26 or Enne :D 19:59:54 can the horizontal ones be made to accept the same shaped vaults as the vertical ones? 20:00:02 or would they need to be made square? 20:00:27 What is my channe? 20:00:34 rax: ##crawl! <3 20:00:40 Mu_: Well, they'd just need to be rotated. 20:00:49 Oh is this the "##crawl sucks" problem? 20:01:00 Partly, I think. 20:01:22 i'll wait until someone else splits it up and then just make subvaults i guess 20:01:56 rax: Hi! I would like to add something to "##crawl sucks", mostly because I had my own share of "this sucks". 20:02:03 Artefact description typo (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=812) by wileaway 20:02:20 rax: I don't personally feel that "##crawl sucks", just that there are a lot of annoying people who I tend to just ignore in there. Most of the time it seems fine, actually. 20:02:37 rax: the point is that with fewer developers (or enlighted players) around in ##crawl, there are more, erm, stupid questions about design. 20:02:41 That's all. 20:02:48 Oh. Welcome to being popular. :) 20:03:01 Heh, yeah. 20:03:08 I used to op in #wikipedia... never doing *that* again. 20:03:31 And part of the issue there is that half of the infuriating people that were there were "old hands", so you were never allowed to get rid of them. 20:03:39 Mu_: Actually, should be easily doable. 20:03:56 Mu_: May require tweaking, though. 20:04:14 Mu_: Just need to make the smallest subvault the size of the largest. 20:04:24 When I was there, I try to explain things carefully and cheer up people and say "no no" to rude ones etc. This generally helps, but I don't have the time. If the same happens to enough of us, the channel will suffer a bit. 20:05:50 i left ##crawl a couple weeks ago, i really don't have time for it 20:06:02 My main beef is the lack of civility in some people there, which is what I'd be focused on helping improve 20:06:10 If you wanted me to 20:06:58 sure, go ahead 20:07:12 don't think that official badges are needed 20:07:31 just be civil to the civilians and militant (but polite) to the hooligans 20:08:26 A dog can growl without teeth, but would you be afraid of it? 20:08:43 (I invented that just now!) 20:08:53 Vandal: "can i have ops please" rarely works d: 20:08:58 =p 20:09:49 people who say that don't understand that it is actually about being responsible and isn't fun 20:10:24 I never give ops to people who ask 20:10:25 people who say that don't understand that it is actually about being someone that the person in charge of the channel already knows and trusts 20:10:29 I usually give it to people who refuse. 20:11:03 well if none of the people rax knows and trusts are actively moderating, what then? 20:11:18 then we start looking for new people 20:11:32 SA has become a more civil place without any moderation whatsoever 20:11:38 SA? 20:11:40 also, most of this is OT 20:11:40 starting with the people who aren't asking for it d: 20:11:42 You mean the forum? 20:11:42 anyway 20:11:45 back to devly topics 20:11:46 but yeah 20:11:58 doy: devilish topics :) 20:12:08 * due != doy :( 20:12:10 -> due 20:12:19 dpeg :) I don't know how familiar you are with SA, but they ban people every day 20:12:37 it is very actively moderated, especially for warez 20:12:50 ANYWAY LESS OFTTOPIC 20:12:54 * due puts moderatory foot down. 20:12:55 I mean the tone of the crawl dev discussions there 20:13:10 ok sorry due :) 20:13:42 hm 20:14:05 Yaaay 20:14:10 Hm, but not enough delay. 20:14:39 TGW: Okay, you always get a zombie now--but it rises immediately after the human dies. 20:14:43 Which I'm assuming you odn't want. 20:14:48 But this fixes it for 0.6. 20:14:56 due: yeah, but that's better than not working most of the time 20:15:04 for 0.7 I want to be able to spawn corpses 20:15:19 for 0.7 I want a CallLuafunctionAfterXTurns. 20:15:34 should be pretty easy 20:15:57 that would be nice 20:16:27 well, I could whip it up in a few minutes 20:16:29 but 20:16:32 motivation, etc. 20:17:17 due: hey, I really like it that the end of the Kiku vault show isn't cast in stone. Could it be that most often you get "corpse+zombie" but sometimes "corpse, no zombie" and, very rarely, "human survives"? 20:17:33 dpeg: You very rarely get human survives. 20:17:39 yes, taht's good! 20:17:53 But I think the monster dying and Kikku not zombifying implies that Kiku is impotent :) 20:17:57 As opposed omnipotent. 20:17:59 due: to me, this is randomisation at its best 20:18:11 due: no, it implies that Kiku enjoys pain and suffering. 20:18:25 ah, sorry :) 20:18:34 Replied to the wrong counter-argument =) 20:18:55 hey hey, my nick is registered now :D 20:19:16 doy: Had to write that mail so that Johanna doesn't feel cornered. 20:19:20 Thanks for the reply. 20:19:35 no problem 20:19:40 There's a wide range between omnipotent and impotent 20:19:58 due: okay, I agree. Make that "corpse+zombie" almost always, "no death" rarely? 20:20:29 Is there opposition to Short Blades themselves becoming a viable main weapon? 20:20:35 i think 'no death' might still generate bug reports 20:20:49 because I have another idea 20:20:53 don't have any other opinions about the situation though 20:21:00 If ##crawl discussion is offtopic here, where should it be discussed? I've seen it here without comment in the past. 20:21:32 dpeg: That's exactly what I've done :) 20:21:35 doy: that could be helped with a special message. 20:21:40 due: yay! 20:21:42 dpeg: true enough 20:21:44 rax: It's fine here 20:21:59 Just too much of it is distracting. 20:22:17 rax: I'd think that both ##crawl and ##crawl-dev are good places. It's just that communication wasn't ... most effective right now. 20:22:35 rax: do you think more ops are needed? 20:23:17 Possibly. I know I only read it when I'm highlighted or I'm actually playing, and I expect the same is true for many of the current op team. 20:23:45 When I poke my nose in it seems OK, but I'm judging it on the basis of "better than #nethack" rather than "actively good." 20:23:49 heh 20:24:10 There are small patches of negative activity, but the most of the time it seems to be neutral or good. 20:24:24 I think the botstream makes it more difficult to casually follow. 20:24:40 rax: by my experience and cursory glances, ##crawl is mostly very silent, with Henzell doing all the talking. Then there's the usual crawly chatter. And only sometimes, I will driven away when players bombard me how we do it all wrong. I am not sure the latter behaviour needs more ops -- I just /part. 20:24:54 I agree. 20:25:07 it is late, I am missing words 20:25:09 A lot of the issues aren't outright rudeness--just people who don't understand or have negative experiences iwth other people. 20:25:36 Vandal, excuse my using you as an example, probably has experienced this more than others because people seem to clash with his ideas very easily. 20:25:40 Yes. Personally, the difference is that I /part instead of explaining things or correcting people. 20:25:53 :) 20:26:08 ##crawl is critical infrastructure 20:26:12 I think "rabble talking to the devs" is not something that can be solved with more ops, agreed. 20:26:18 ...critical infrastructure? 20:26:22 it's not part of the game, but it's every bit as ontopic here as, say, the Makefiles 20:26:34 to the community 20:26:44 well rax his observations and mine aren't the same, but maybe I'm biased like due said 20:26:45 sorear: i think we're all already in agreement about that 20:27:09 replying to - 18:20 <@rax> If ##crawl discussion is offtopic here, where should it be discussed? I've seen it here without comment in the past. 20:27:25 sorear: yes, and read the next few responses to that d: 20:27:31 I just feel like if the presence of ops was felt a little more strongly, people would be more polite in general 20:28:33 Vandal: From experience with other channels, unfortunately I think not. It would have to be an extremely strong presence, and I'm not sure that the negatives (people devoting time, etc) outweigh the benefits. 20:29:00 hey now I thought being an op was about having fun :) after all that is why people ask to be them! 20:29:10 Ahahaha. No. 20:29:16 (I am kidding) 20:29:18 It's hard, stressful, annoying, tiring work. 20:29:22 Correct 20:29:25 (In busy channels, that is.) 20:29:31 I've owned lots of IRC channels, some of them busy, but not ##crawl busy 20:29:34 TGW: pushed the kiku fix 20:29:39 due: cool 20:29:44 well, I tried to 20:29:54 git's complaining about not being fast-forwarded, blech. 20:29:57 Yeah, honestly, the only place I put in that much effort for community policing is ##crawl-offtopic. I figure ##crawl is mostly a Public Place On The Internet with all that entails. 20:30:27 ##crawl is where new players come to learn about the game.. it should be a positive experience 20:31:17 being an op is like being a dev 20:31:28 you need a certain amount of passion to keeping things sane 20:31:39 and you need to be sane yourself 20:31:44 and you need a bit of time 20:31:52 you need to be sane? 20:31:55 damn 20:31:56 I've tried moderation jobs before. They're very trying. 20:32:02 dpeg: looks like I'll have to hand in my dev badge :( 20:32:46 * due too insane for -def. 20:32:49 ... -dev. 20:32:50 yeah really due, I guess I don't have a shot at ever becoming a dev :[ 20:38:30 My main reason for wanting more ##crawl ops would be so that I could absolve myself of all responsibility; I don't think I'm doing a very good job right now. I don't have any good candidates at the moment, partially due to not paying enough attention. :/ 20:40:35 * due delves into quiver.cc. 20:40:56 there's a branch with all the non-0.6 changes, yeah? 20:41:12 master 20:41:15 TGW: all changes are still going into master, i'm just picking out specific ones to go into 0.6 20:41:56 ... delightful 20:42:02 the quiver marshalling code is in quiver.cc, not tags.cc. 20:42:23 heh 20:42:37 Does anyone know the exact point at which it is determined ammo will be destroyed after firing? 20:42:40 how much marshalling code could the quiver possibly need 20:42:52 due suggested on impact, but I've fired arrows that missed the monster and were still destroyed 20:43:18 it will mulch even it hits nothing, i checked in wizmode earlier 20:43:25 thanks 20:43:34 Ok gonna write something about that too tonight. 20:44:27 btw whoever wrote the description for Gastronok: my hat is off to you 20:44:35 <3 20:45:21 due: quite a lot of marshalling code is actually in the owning files 20:45:43 CrawlHashTables are marshalled in store.cc, the stash tracker marshals in stash tracker code 20:45:57 vaults marshal in mapdef.cc, waypoints marshal in travel.cc 20:46:44 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:46:49 tilemcache.cc marshalls its own data as well. 20:47:37 (at some point in 0.7 I'll have to actually start playing tiles) 20:48:03 i'd give tiles a shot if i actually had 3d acceleration 20:48:39 doy?? 20:49:17 so that's why you're always giving me a hard time about my lack of upgrading 20:49:18 hah 20:49:25 hmmm? 20:49:54 you say you too are stuck too far in the past for tiles? 20:50:10 nah, just don't feel like dealing with the ati binary drivers 20:50:39 * sorear plans to have a crack at optimizing tiles 20:50:45 in 0.7 20:51:01 You definitely should. I think the refactoring that you'll need to do will also do it some good. 20:51:13 caching pre-composited tiles, etc 20:51:31 also I'll get to learn a lot about how it works :) 20:52:15 My only real worry is the switch from 256-color paletted tiles to 32-bit RGBA ones. 20:52:36 I can't imagine that you'll regain the old speed of 0.4 without going back to 1 byte per pixel. 20:53:00 The cached tiles are going to be stored in native pixel format, and in a server-side pixmap 20:53:12 XCopyArea accellation is extremely common 20:53:15 even *I* have it 20:53:22 * sorear drags windows around in real time 20:53:41 sorear: how well is that going to translate to windows? 20:54:00 we care about windows? ;) 20:54:04 I still think pushing Windows to DirectX instead of OpenGL will make more sense. 20:54:18 doy: this is why I'm talking about 0.7 instead of just doing it right now 20:54:24 I don't have all the details worked out 20:54:29 Enne: oh, is the secret door code okay for 0.6, or should I work on moving the tile picking to init_flavour? (Not sure I'll have time for the latter, but I can stick it on my list) 20:54:42 I doubt there will be massive gains just from swapping ogl to dx 20:54:44 i mean, i like the idea of keeping one codepath if at all possible 20:54:51 just for maintenance reasons 20:54:54 unless you plan on using shaders etc 20:54:55 also what felirx said 20:54:59 due: I don't know? I can't remember what state you've left it in. 20:55:18 and glsl / cg works fine for shaders 20:55:31 Enne: Well, it's functioning, but it's lightly hacked using .special to store the tile's offset. 20:55:49 due: If it's working, just put it on the list to fix later. 20:55:52 Okay 20:56:09 felirx: There'll be massive gains for those people with terrible OpenGL drivers. 20:56:29 Which are depressingly common, it seems. 20:56:44 Enne: Napkin's dad was having the water issue as well, I don't remember if I mentioned. 20:56:54 Yeah, that's what I heard. 20:56:58 the nvidia / ati ogl drivers are adequate 20:57:11 ati's are samewhat horrible though 20:57:20 felirx: how are those going to help people with no-name integrated 3d 20:57:22 Yes, agree re: ATI. 20:57:51 but you would have to make a terrible mess of the rendering code, creating wrappers for ogl/dx abstraction 20:58:50 I've played tiles on a few non-name integrated 3d cards without much issue. 20:58:55 felirx: we have to play with the cards Microsoft dealt us 20:58:58 my eeepc with some gma crap runs the current sdl/opengl renderer without any trouble 20:59:13 your eeepc is probably not running a Microsoft OS 20:59:17 eeepc are Intel, yes? 20:59:20 Ok. I don't want to waste effort by writing 2 wiki pages about the same topic, so I want your opinions before I do 20:59:21 winxp, intel gma 20:59:30 dpeg wants weapons to have special characteristics 21:00:10 Previously I suggested removing Short Blades entirely because you shouldn't really fight with them, and merging them into Long Blades 21:00:22 What if instead 21:00:34 they have seperate apts 21:00:38 often widely seperate 21:00:38 The "special characteristic" of short blades remains stabbing 21:00:47 felirx: I'll point you at the players on Windows complaining about performance. You can tell *them* how adequate their drivers are. ;) 21:00:50 and they become a viable weapon class 21:00:50 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:00:50 TGW: that would be part of the "merging them into long blades" 21:00:59 all by themselves 21:01:02 doy: relevantly seperate apts :| 21:01:02 so basically 21:01:14 the rest time is about the same on my gma and on my 8800gts 21:01:20 You can fight with comparable damage per turn to other weapon classes 21:01:23 ko, sp, ha intentionally aren't as good at lbl 21:01:24 but without any special procs 21:01:34 so I'm not really convinced it's hardware issues causing long rests -) 21:01:39 TGW: i don't think that needs to be set in stone 21:01:48 Lbl / Axe / Mace / etc.. will all probably get some kind of special trait 21:02:10 !apt long 21:02:11 Long: Dr=100, Dr[black]=100, Ce=110, DD=100, DE=105, DG=110, DS=110, Gh=110, Dr[green]=100, Dr[grey]=100, Ha=100, HE=70!, HO=80, Hu=100, Ke=75, Ko=140, Mf=90, Mi=70!, Dr[mottled]=100, MD=90, Mu=140, Na=100, Og=180*, Dr[pale]=100, Dr[purple]=100, Dr[red]=100, SE=110, Sp=140, Tr=150, Vp=100, Dr[white]=100, Dr[yellow]=100 21:02:16 Vandal: so... they'd still be inferior to other weapon classes 21:02:17 So what if Sblades were doing comparable dmg to them, not counting their special trait? like say if Axes special trait is AoE dmg 21:02:24 felirx: Driver issues, not hardware issues. 21:02:43 But 1v1 Sblades and Axes did the same dmg over time roughly 21:02:52 -!- Enne has quit [Quit: Enne] 21:03:14 Remove Stab as a skill because none of the other weapons would require a special skill to use their special property 21:03:19 and base it off Short Blades skill 21:03:29 oops. 21:03:45 calling nvidia drivers adequate makes me cringe 21:03:50 Vandal: so you mean, bump damage for sabres up to like 15? 21:03:53 or... what? 21:04:00 I haven't thought it through that far 21:04:07 but there must be a way 21:04:09 keep the skills seperate, merge stabbing to sbl 21:04:18 so what I'm asking is 21:04:29 Would anyone like to pursue this path rather than just axing Sblades entirely? 21:04:32 Vandal: "i haven't thought it through, but there must be a way" isn't really helpful at all 21:04:37 because i'm not convinced that there is a way 21:04:39 well like I said 21:04:47 this is before I spend 2 hours writing a wiki page 21:04:49 if you come up with an actual concrete idea, let us know d: 21:05:19 if short blades can be made viable, sure, that's another option 21:05:29 but can't really give any feedback for an idea that doesn't really exist 21:05:29 so 21:05:46 My biggest issue with Stabbing is the constant pointless weapon swapping 21:05:54 that won't be solved by merging them into Lblades 21:06:06 vandal: merging stabbing would solve it since you must train sbl 21:06:14 also I don't think people actually swap 21:06:17 Yes TGW 21:06:20 hang on 21:06:22 That is what I'm saying 21:06:28 Making Sblades viable would solve it 21:06:28 what about coshing? 21:06:36 due: it doesn't scale anyway, does it? 21:06:48 I can't remember, I didn't implement it nor have I read the code for it. 21:06:48 just bundle it with whatever mnf does 21:07:22 shouldn't it be "You can now give your body great, but temporary, strength", with the second last comma? 21:07:23 Honestly I like hte idea of a short bladed weapon specialist 21:07:28 that is what a rogue would really use 21:07:29 not a long sword 21:07:40 it just isn't practical as Crawl exists in 0.6 21:08:20 Perhaps the answer is something like having Sblades entirely ignore armour at all times, because they have lower base dmg than the other weapons 21:08:31 no 21:08:33 very no 21:08:33 and they're small and fit in the openings in armor 21:08:34 i don't like that at all 21:08:43 no 21:08:52 that would be an insane boost that is... 21:08:59 Ok then, maybe ignore armour by a % determined by skill? 21:09:15 it's a defining trait of sbl 21:09:27 Like say ignore 75% armour at 27 skill? 21:09:48 don't like it 21:10:01 Armour piercing as a weapon ability you mean? 21:10:07 Or the numbers I'm giving you? 21:10:30 doy remember, this is with keeping sblade per hit dmg lower than other weapon classes 21:10:40 against unarmored enemies you'd be doing less than all the others 21:11:11 not a fan 21:11:18 i just don't see how it makes sense as a mechanic 21:11:31 It is an extension of Stabbing which already ignores some armour 21:11:37 it does? 21:11:42 yes 21:11:47 it's unrealistic and technical and I don't see what it helps 21:11:55 the idea is you have a thin blade that fits in the chinks in the enemy's armor 21:12:01 um 21:12:09 shouldn't maces do that? 21:12:12 that doesn't apply to everyone, though. 21:12:20 fits between scales :) 21:12:25 Vandal: that's not how armour works though 21:12:35 ? 21:12:37 considering we just have one flat armour value 21:12:45 @??ancient lich 21:12:45 ancient lich (16L) | Speed: 12 | HD: 27 | Health: 54-162 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Damage: 2013(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(504), 05fire, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 10944 | Sp: b.cold, paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot, teleport self / b.draining, animate dead, summon undead, throw frost, crystal spear / b.fire, confuse, haste, b.draining, grea 21:12:47 and? 21:12:51 AC20, and they do not wear armour. 21:13:00 due: fits between their bones 21:13:13 TGW: :p 21:13:18 fits between scales, pierces magical barriers more easily because the object has less mass 21:13:24 what chinks are there in chain mail that a long sword wouldn't be able to access? 21:13:30 greater pressure applied to a smaller area 21:14:00 it doesn't have to make perfect sense in reality, are you saying you really don't think it would make Sblades more viable while retaining lower base dmg? 21:14:24 That is what I'm looking for a way to accomplish 21:14:38 They should have the lowest base dmg, which by itself makes them unappealing 21:14:46 they need a property to compensate somehow 21:14:56 'stabbing' 21:15:06 we're talking about making them a viable melee wewapon 21:15:50 once again we return to an interesting issue: not everything must be viable in exactly the same manner. 21:15:57 and on that note, i'm bowing out of this discussion. 21:16:09 does anyone know where DESC_INVENTORY is used, besides quiver prompts? 21:16:20 for OBJ_MISSILES? I can barely understand half this code. 21:16:41 doy, assuming they were just merged into Blades 21:16:49 How would you want to handle "stabbing" weapons at that point? 21:17:03 designate specific Blades that are still good for it? 21:17:27 i think it's okay that you can't sit there and melee a stone giant one on one with just a short blade 21:17:27 without some kind of help 21:17:32 would they also retain whatever special attack Blades would get? 21:18:12 Vandal: could base it on weapon type and weight and size 21:18:23 with 'small/light blades' being best 21:18:25 That would make the most sense logically 21:18:36 but again, would the smaller blades get the same passive bonus all blades got? 21:18:41 and have a unique property as well? 21:19:36 shrug, i haven't thought about the 'special weapon move' stuff at all 21:19:43 :) 21:19:55 Well thanks, you've given me enough to write a page about 21:21:32 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 21:25:41 it'd be really sweet if sf's git access wasn't so slow 21:27:59 I think this is suitable... 21:28:06 would 0.6.0-a2-82-g7342b59 be prerelease? 21:28:15 it seems to be missing some stuff 21:28:50 that was the last version on CDO 21:28:54 I just updated a few hours back 21:29:05 it's the current windows binary 21:29:11 doy do you think Slings are a viable weapon now along with bows? 21:29:20 * due does. 21:29:22 TGW: will update 21:29:34 TGW: apparently we still have a few more minor features that need to go in 21:29:42 Vandal: slings are utterly viable now 21:29:47 we also need to decide what we 21:29:54 we also need to decide what we're going to do with demonspawn 21:29:59 i thought we decided last night? 21:30:02 Well due, if a Sling is good enough to use against a Stone Giant, why wouldn't a Short Blade with a bunch of enchants and a good ego be too? 21:30:03 dpeg doesn't want to give me an order from above 21:30:05 what happened to slings beyond handedness? 21:30:10 so I have to actually decide something :( 21:30:11 vandal: it is 21:30:17 Vandal: sure, it is. 21:30:27 [22:17] i think it's okay that you can't sit there and melee a stone giant one on one with just a short blade 21:30:32 just not with dir-mashing 21:30:38 you could 21:30:41 it'd just take a while. 21:30:43 due has done it :) 21:31:12 Well I'm just pointing out that making a "small" weapon like a Sling viable doesn't seem to have hurt the game any 21:31:14 anyway, I am not involving myself in this discussion 21:31:16 trying to fix stuff 21:31:38 and due, I was respecting that by asking doy how he felt about Sling viability 21:31:49 i didn't realise it was related :0 21:31:56 <3 21:31:58 @the cdo build: I mean that it seems to be missing dgn.cloud_at 21:32:27 freaked out about a nil value in testing, and the changelog was rid of it 21:32:48 TGW: i didn't see what it was necessary for, so i didn't merge it 21:32:48 doy: I'm massumign you didn't cherrypick dgn.cloud_at? 21:32:58 yeah 21:33:01 it was a request 21:33:08 I guess I'm asking if I could get a master build 21:33:15 or if I should wait until the release 21:34:45 also if I haven't thanked you for it, I will now 21:35:06 :) 21:35:42 TGW: you're welcome, it was relatively easy 21:35:47 -!- Iainuki_ has quit [Quit: Iainuki_] 21:36:35 TGW: I can try doing you a master build if you'd like 21:37:20 I would appreciate that 21:37:30 just updating the 0.6 prereleases 21:38:40 doy: Can you cherry-pick 09f666ae7a and 34966286836f3? thanks! 21:41:58 !tell dpeg I've committed a fix for (runed) showing up in your firign quiver for unID'd ammunition. 21:41:58 due: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 21:44:43 so 21:45:23 doy: another idea 21:46:01 what if all Short Blades had a growing % chance of proc'ing a mini-stablike attack for bonus damage during regular combat? 21:46:09 growing w/ Short Blades skill 21:46:14 instead of flat armour ignore 21:46:58 Sort of like a critical hit in other games, not guaranteed to kill though 21:48:48 Say 20% chance at 27 skill, your attack does 300% more dmg or something along those lines 21:49:28 So standing toe-to-toe with a Stone Giant is still risky, but you're not at the same disadvantage you are currently 21:49:34 vs. using a Long Blade 21:54:51 due: thanks! 21:55:28 I've never liked critical hits 21:55:38 (oh and from earlier, I get how Armour dmg reduction works, I'm saying that trait would take the dmg reduction and bypass a % of it) 21:55:44 it's an oblique way of raising the average damage 21:55:59 Well in the case of Short Blades it fits the theme of RNG being a factor 21:56:15 RNG determines if you get next to something to Stab it or not 21:57:10 The other weapons could have passives like axes doing 50% of their dmg to the center target to adjacent targets 21:57:24 but Sblades could be the only one that wasn't "always on" 21:57:41 TGW: sorry, I can't do a tiles build for you of non-0.6 21:57:49 Er. 21:57:51 Windows, not tiles. 21:57:54 s'okay, I'm zealously - oh 21:58:13 Also I don't like critical hits either, at least, not when they're presented as a statistic that can be manipulated and exploited 21:58:23 !tell napkin Would you be able to do a Windows build of trunk for TGW? Just non-tiles. I'd give it a go myself, but I don't want to play around with the scripts and break stuff. <3 21:58:23 due: OK, I'll let napkin know. 21:58:42 If it was restricted to your Short Blade skill, it wouldn't be able to become out of hand 21:59:04 and the game already sort of has this, in the form of a chance of Stabbing disoriented monsters 21:59:19 they are mini-stabs on a % chance 22:00:08 so you'd basically be removing the "requires distraction" aspect from distraction stabs 22:00:23 Yes, essentially 22:00:35 the operative word is "distracted" 22:00:56 -!- Twinge- has joined ##crawl-dev 22:00:59 And? 22:01:18 Vandal: i think that eliminates an interesting requirement 22:01:40 Those are bigger stabs than I'm talking about 22:01:47 there's a difference between "interesting conditional stabs" and "raising damage in a gimmicky way" 22:01:48 And would still be useful though 22:01:53 really? 22:02:02 distraction stabs are already pretty small 22:02:07 it would be useful like +2 base damage to all of them would be useful 22:02:09 I'm not talking about a 20% chance of instagib in normal combat 22:02:21 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:02:41 and, you could stack them 22:03:02 that would certainly retain the value of distracting enemies for mini-stabs 22:03:06 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:03:11 Vandal: the point is, how is this different in practice from "short blades get +X to damage, for some X based on skill" 22:03:28 Does it need to be different? The problem is that they don't do enough damage 22:03:33 raising the damage is the obvious solution 22:03:56 you're trying to attack the obvious solution in a bizarre way 22:04:02 and I'm not sure that is the problem 22:04:12 I'm trying to maintain Sblades as having lower average per-hit dmg than other weapons 22:04:19 that is their weakness 22:04:50 a small chance of mini-stab in normal combat is a dmg boost, but it isn't guaranteed, and thus it remains more interesting than just raising their base dmg 22:04:53 but you're just increasing the damage 22:05:08 an unconditional damage increase is an unconditional damage increase 22:05:15 you can hit 20 times in a row and not get a mini-stab even with a 20% rate 22:05:28 The idea is keeping RNG involved 22:06:29 Anyways like I said, this is just one alternative to stuff like armour penetration 22:06:33 I'm open to more ideas 22:06:55 well, the thing is 22:06:58 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 22:07:01 it's a lot easier to discuss concrete ideas 22:07:11 not just "maybe we could add some damage sometimes" 22:07:46 I think this is pretty concrete when I suggest 20% rate for 300% dmg, if you don't like those numbers you're free to adjust, but they are enough for discussion to commence 22:08:03 and like you said, I like the existing ones 22:08:12 it would be neat if this chance stacked with that 22:08:16 and they did the same dmg formula 22:08:20 Vandal: are these numbers based on anything at all? 22:08:32 have you figured out if these numbers are even close to reasonable? 22:08:50 have you put any effort into thinking about the balance implications compared to the other weapons? 22:09:08 just throwing out arbitrary numbers is not enough 22:09:19 The logic behind the numbers is, one in 5 hits you get 2 free hits, but it is a low enough chance to still get you killed if you rely on it too much 22:09:29 or overestimate the value 22:09:37 that's not logic 22:09:46 how much extra damage would this be? 22:09:51 what would the variance on it be? 22:10:06 how would this affect fights with different kinds of enemies? 22:10:19 Well since the game never tells me actual damage numbers, I have a hard time giving you concrete examples :/ 22:10:23 hehe 22:10:25 sorear was right 22:10:30 dowan and duvessa do get their own file :D 22:10:32 are you taking these kinds of issues into account at all, or just tossing out numbers that sound like they might make sort of sense? 22:11:12 doy I'm presenting a concept, and trusting that you guys (especially due, because he has played a lot of SpBe w/ Short Blades) would know a good starting point for the actual in game numbers 22:12:28 as for how it compares to the special abilities of other weapon classes, those don't exist yet, so I can't make a comparison 22:12:34 but I can work on that too 22:12:39 dpeg said he wants AoE on axes 22:12:44 that is enough for me to write something 22:12:52 I can try and think of others 22:13:20 Vandal: the issue is, the devs can come up with ideas like "short blades should get more damage" pretty easily on their own 22:13:26 the details are the important part 22:13:38 :) 22:13:40 Agreed 22:13:55 if you aren't providing any details, it's basically completely worthless 22:15:34 I'm trying to come up with dmg delivery methods that will make Sblades viable without raising their base damage, that is all 22:16:14 If you're telling me to run with this one and figure out some more concrete numbers because you like the concept 22:16:16 I can try to do that 22:16:58 Debug mode shows you actual damage right? 22:17:01 yes 22:17:43 I can run tests with sblades like they are now if you think this method is worth researching further 22:17:50 debug mode also has the fsim command set 22:17:58 &? 22:18:03 fsim? 22:18:17 you can set up fight parameters - skills, stats, target AC, target EV 22:18:35 it will attack a few million times and give you statistics on average damage, damage over time, etc 22:18:35 oh, so you can change monster values to whatever you want? 22:18:42 oh cool 22:18:49 maybe only a few tens of thousands, it's been a while 22:19:38 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:skills:stabbing has been completely revised with the stuff discussed tonight if anyone gets inspired and wants to add 22:33:45 pointless_: doy had questions about the growth visualisation. 22:34:16 doy: questions about growth visualisation? 22:34:56 pointless_: how solid is it? and how important? 22:35:04 the commit messages made it sound pretty experimental 22:35:26 and i haven't played fedhas far enough to see what it'd be useful for 22:35:46 Well basically I think it's the type of thing someone is going to complain about (for flavor reasons or whatever), I don't think there is much room for it to introduce bugs. 22:36:51 When you use growth to place a partial ring it puts plants on the squares that are closest to monsters. Players don't seem to know this (or make use of it), so the idea is we'll draw the priorities on the screen and they'll get the idea that it can be useful 22:37:42 It wouldn't matter at all if people would read ability descriptions or try things out on their own, but there you go. I don't think it's a huge deal if it slips to a point release or whatever 22:38:55 okay 22:40:01 i'll see what we come up with for an actual release plan (as i asked about on the mailing list), it could probably go in if the release is going to end up being delayed a bit 22:43:08 Would anyone support me in suggesting that normal ammo which does not impact a monster or wall should not be able to be destroyed? 22:43:25 Ammo mulching may likely change in 0.7. 22:43:40 Oh? 22:44:31 due: how so? 22:44:44 doy: Well, penetration mechanic has to change at least. 22:44:51 ah, yeah 22:44:53 It was supposed to be an 0.6 target buut... 22:45:03 I did not care to touch the code. 22:46:12 hey cool endless loop 22:46:55 I love those 22:49:49 a point was brought up by eith earlier though too 22:49:56 he mentioned you can . target ammo 22:50:28 so by doing that really all this would change is drastically reducing the chance of destruction at all times 22:50:48 :/ 22:53:42 wouldn't that lead to funky targeting? 22:53:53 into empty areas, etc 22:54:06 exactly, you would fight differently to try to conserve ammo 22:54:14 if you were trying to 22:54:20 I know eventually ammo stops being a real issue 22:54:32 but you might want to try to conserve your silver arrows or something that you just don't get a lot of 22:54:45 it would just add a little more depth to ranged combat 22:55:01 baaah 22:55:02 baah 22:55:08 Dowan just killed Duvessa 22:55:13 due: hah! 22:55:24 for a second I thought you were turning into a shepe 22:55:27 and then a sheep 22:57:29 We need to rename abl-show 22:57:32 to abilities.cc 23:01:24 in canada, two percent of homicides are fratricides 23:01:46 How does that compare to other countries? 23:01:50 taking into account all the killing crawl involves, it is almost inevitable that dowan and duvessa will kill each other 23:02:00 heh 23:02:08 TGW: noo but they are pure and love one another in a non-incestutuous manner! 23:02:11 also, they're psychically linked. 23:02:16 so it woul dbe a bit like killing yourself. 23:02:48 So, louise. 23:02:55 people do that all the time 23:03:19 why are dowan and duvessa psychically linked again? 23:03:23 An explorer (as opposed to adventurer) who specialises in translocations? 23:03:42 Hm. 23:03:58 I mostly think of louise as MST_WIZARD_IV 23:04:11 due: coincidentally, suicide is the 15th leading cause of death in australia 23:04:16 the physical embodyment of a spellbook 23:04:23 I managed somehow to get 100 collateral butterfly kills without fireballing them before death :( 23:04:57 sorear: Yeah, which is problematic. 23:05:09 Cool 23:05:20 If you pacify a monste ron the stairs, itll leave in that exact same moment. 23:06:29 Exxxcellent. 23:08:17 in germany, suicide is the 11th leading cause of death and comprises 1.3% of all deaths 23:08:51 Hey, would anyone care if "of Reaching" was removed from the game? 23:09:04 vandal: yes 23:09:12 vandal: very yes! 23:09:31 What if being able to target 2 squares away from your character was a general trait of Polearms? 23:09:39 vandal: my yes gland has ruptured 23:09:49 I'm not sure if that would be balanced, but I can't say I wouldn't like it 23:10:01 Well we're talking about giving Axes aoe 23:10:04 I couldn't see this being worse 23:10:11 fair enough 23:10:21 in l2, healers could root a monster / player and poke them with polearms out of melee range at one point 23:10:22 dpeg has been for polearms being automatic reaching for a while. 23:10:30 ah, well there you go 23:10:33 great minds think alike! 23:10:35 felirx: "root" has interesting connotations where I come from. 23:10:37 are you writing a page about this? because I'm pretty sure there's a complete FR on sf 23:10:49 I'm writing a page consolidating all the weapon special features 23:10:53 for 0.7 23:11:05 Only elyvites can pacify, yeah? 23:11:12 I would appreciate the link you're talking about 23:11:16 due: I think recite has a similar effect 23:11:28 hm, true. 23:11:32 but that might be something else 23:11:40 also, pikelites can pacify 23:11:55 yes, different 23:13:51 pacified monsters won't attack other monsters, will they? 23:14:03 I thought that was the selling point 23:14:13 they hit things until the stairs are there 23:14:21 if you hang around too close to pacified monsters, they might hit you at least 23:14:21 hm. 23:14:25 Will they hit each other? 23:14:30 probably 23:14:35 :| 23:14:39 but I can't think of when that would happen 23:14:50 different speeds 23:14:54 what are you doing? 23:15:06 15, 51; 14, 58; 14, 59; 24, 57; 24, 58; 24, 59. 23:15:16 oh ok 23:15:33 stfu 23:15:44 I'm making a box 23:15:50 Here is a question, do we want any of these weapons to have proc based ability for their special trait? 23:16:00 Or always-on? or a mix? 23:16:00 what? 23:16:08 all of these should be entirely passive 23:16:12 Ok 23:16:27 So that kills the mini-stab proc 23:16:32 hm 23:16:51 ATT_GOOD_NEUTRAL is ely-only, yeah? 23:18:00 ely uses good neutral? 23:18:04 Yes. 23:18:13 I thought good neutral was the one where they don't hit you 23:18:26 I suppose that may have changed 23:18:57 er.. no.. I think I misunderstood doy 23:19:19 doy, I meant stuff like a % chance of knockback, stun, etc.. 23:19:39 You don't want ANY % chance of happening passives on the weapons? 23:19:44 Vandal: what else could they have? 23:19:50 i don't understand what you're asking 23:19:58 Well axes and polearmas in this example have "always on" abilities 23:20:04 I smell stunlock MDFi with hammars 23:20:14 Vandal: they do? 23:20:16 you don't have to wonder if you'll be able to use "reaching" 23:20:21 you can always target 2 squares away 23:20:49 I would assume axes would always have splash damage though I suppose it could be made into a proc ability 23:21:09 honestly I don't think proc abilities are a good idea since that is how a lot of Egos already operate 23:21:19 I didn't consider that before with the sblades 23:21:24 this is getting tres hacky 23:24:35 eww, dpeg disapproved of freezing brand slowing enemies :[ 23:25:15 How hard would it be to code something like 23:25:47 Every time you hit an enemy with a Mace / Flail, their armor is temporarily reduced by 1-2 points 23:26:14 Sort of like how poison gets worse the more you're hit with it 23:26:30 (actually, for monsters, poison doesn't) 23:26:44 really? what does "looks even sicker" mean then? 23:26:50 more duration 23:26:52 vandal: duration 23:26:56 oh, good to know 23:27:07 I kept thinking I was making them take more damage :D 23:27:14 you are 23:27:16 just... slowly 23:27:19 i'm not 100% sure 23:27:25 check in debug mode :p 23:27:32 sorear: should I FR that if someone confirms? 23:27:49 So who likes that potential Mace passive? 23:28:03 I imagine its like you're crushing the target's defenses 23:28:32 -!- morik has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:32:02 pointless_: What do you think about making spore trails green? 23:32:07 Specifically lightgreen. 23:32:46 due: the issue I had was trying to avoid conflicting with floor color, but maybe it makes sense to define mold color per branch 23:33:40 Yeah, maybe. 23:34:17 does lightgreen conflict with any floor colors? I don't really remember 23:34:21 Alternatively you could do something like a momentum based minor speed buff 23:34:27 or damage buff 23:34:45 pointless_: Slime. 23:35:00 I think that's abut it. 23:35:30 slime-covered floors should just dissolve mold 23:35:35 +1 dmg or speed per attack on the same facing, capping at 3? 23:35:40 sorear: true 23:36:12 so I'm fine with changing it to lightgreen and just ignoring the conflict with slime for now 23:36:20 +1! 23:36:56 can you even get fungal colonies in slime? 23:36:59 night all 23:37:06 night 23:37:10 night 23:37:24 fedhas worshipers can manufacture them, but spores don't occur there naturally anymore 23:37:41 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:43:14 Now I need unpacify hooks 23:45:53 Are the elemental staves making their comeback in 0.7 as well? 23:46:10 They need a comeback? 23:46:28 pretty sure they've been nerfed into the ground as of 0.5 and I didn't remember any changes in 0.6 23:46:42 They got nerfed... because they needed nerf. 23:46:59 Not just because we did it on a whim. 23:47:15 the last time I saw people discussing it, it seemed the concensus was that it was a bit much 23:47:22 Where? 23:47:25 the concensus can always be wrong though! 23:47:27 In ##crawl or -dev? 23:47:31 Also, this is not Wikipedia. 23:47:33 this was a over a month ago, sorry 23:48:52 What about Wikipedia? 23:48:58 It works on consensus. 23:49:08 And is obsessed with it. 23:49:33 Oh ok :) well I didn't want to say this because it was a long time ago, but I think dpeg actually had something to say about it during that 23:49:42 My memory is foggy though 23:49:59 They were overpowered. 23:50:08 They're possibly now underpowered, but that's still preferable. 23:50:15 :D 23:50:18 I'm willing to bet they're not underpowered 23:50:21 Vandal: if you can bring up reasons for why they need a buff, we can talk about that 23:50:23 Yeah. 23:50:26 I'll have to test it then 23:50:27 I've seen people play them. 23:50:38 "some people might have said that they were underpowered, maybe" is not something that can be discussed 23:50:41 I'm just wondering how adding a Staves / Quarterstaves passive would interact with it 23:50:46 they are a resistance, plus an enhancer, plus a weapon you don't need any weapon skill for 23:50:56 I was fishing for info I could use 23:51:02 then *ask*. 23:51:09 Don't say "so when are we buffing them?" 23:51:25 although I've asked, and staff of poison is kind of ugly 23:51:51 TGW I thought you did need Staves skill, because otherwise you'd be really slow 23:52:00 ??quarterstaff 23:52:00 quarterstaff[1/1]: A fast and accurate stick that you hit things with. Damage: 7. Accuracy: 6. Delay: 120. Double handed. If you use a quarterstaff with a shield, the base damage is halved. Though anyone with a hand-and-a-half weapon, no shield, and unarmed skill can still punch, quarterstaves allow it even if you're a spriggan (for whom QS are two-handed). 23:52:05 120 isn't "really slow" 23:52:10 120 is "really fast" 23:52:13 The elemental staves are 120 too? neat 23:52:24 Aren't they faster? 23:52:50 TGW: well, any actual melee user is going to have an effective speed of 70 23:52:55 by anything past early game 23:52:58 Well, a weapon that you don't need to train any weapon skill to use is another issue entirely that should probably be dealt with in 0.7 23:53:10 70 or 80 23:53:29 vandal: see also: quarterstaff 23:53:36 and sabre and falch and... 23:53:54 TGW: what? 23:53:56 -!- Madtrixr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:16 you don't need to train any weapon skill to use many weapons 23:54:43 no one uses Sabres or Falchions as their end game weapon though 23:54:50 well, in that sense, you don't have to train any weapon skill to use any weapon 23:55:01 or Quarterstaffs 23:55:03 doy: many weapons will never hit anything or just kill you 23:56:46 anyways here, because the bot won't post it 23:56:49 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:weapon_reform 23:56:56 I always edit stuff right after saving it :/ 23:57:01 what's wrong with ash? 23:57:05 nothing 23:57:16 it just doens't post new pages if you also edit them before it posts in here 23:57:17 hacky implementation 23:57:29 lol 23:57:29 i'll fix it eventually 23:57:35 it is my own bad habit of saving stuff I'm not done editing 23:58:07 I'm not sure staves are that bad 23:58:42 -!- doy changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot 23:58:45 they're a universally decent apt, usable by all races, and really accurate and fast 23:59:16 they're wonky.. an interesting niche for them could be having more caster friendly egos as I mentioned a month ago