00:00:00 Agree. 00:00:01 (crawl's snails are large) 00:00:20 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 00:00:44 dying to a normal-sized mite would be pretty funny though 00:01:19 a mite incedible, one could say 00:04:10 g'night, -dev 00:04:32 Night tgw! 00:04:34 * due hug. 00:04:41 rest well 00:07:56 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:39 !tell greensnark Is there any reason why normal merfolk always generate with javelins and spears for throwing purposes? I thought this was quite rare. 00:08:39 due: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 00:11:51 doy: What was that list of tihngs that you thought I should cover in play-testing posts? I forgot to write it down. :/ 00:11:59 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:blog:playtesting Can you stick it somewhere on there? 00:31:22 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 00:31:39 due: the stuff under 'feedback' on the 0.6 roadmap page 00:32:30 Okay 00:38:13 @??slave 00:38:13 slave (16@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 130. 00:41:24 oh god 00:41:25 i'm done 00:41:35 that tok fooorever 00:43:06 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=296 00:52:07 -!- Cryp71c has quit [] 00:53:19 -!- ogaz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:51 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 00:54:02 ogax! <3 00:54:04 ... ogaz. 00:54:16 ...due. 00:54:22 what's up? 00:54:57 nothing much! 00:55:03 play-testing post! http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=296 00:55:08 I have had no feedbackc so far and I am pining for it. 00:55:12 It took me almost five hours to write. 00:56:05 I saw it, and it looked fine 00:56:10 :) 00:56:18 5 hours though? wow. 00:56:21 I am used to napkin and dpeg's enthused ravings. 00:56:26 oh well, I can wait :) 00:56:57 I'm bad at enthusiastic :/ 00:57:22 But still, it's an awesome post :) 00:57:54 :D 00:58:17 due: I see you wrote out the new formulas for the AC/EV, but whats the bottom line.. nerf or buff? 00:58:31 ev buff, ac nerf 00:58:31 er, that you linked to the commit that shows the formulas 00:58:37 purge: Both. 00:58:55 I don't underestand it myself. 00:59:37 lol 00:59:48 syllogism's the one who's been running the numbers i think 01:06:08 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:08:47 03due * r6b485cb30929 10/crawl-ref/source/spells3.cc: Only mark unidentified items as "was cursed". 01:09:52 * due updating cdo and builds 01:10:46 -!- ogaz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:22 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 01:16:59 Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2964-g6b485cb (16.3) 01:40:00 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:42:23 The sizes can be changed. The sizes a lot of mobs have right now is pretty poorly done in general; if dropping the size a notch to better fit a different name is good, it's probably not a big deal. 01:42:54 Guess TGW already left, but relevant to due I guess, hehe. 01:43:21 Agree. 01:43:55 The descriptions are often pretty vague too, so they don't help either :P 01:45:04 And really, a "giant" centipede, for example can be anywhere from spriggan-sized to bigger than human-sized -- all are abnormally large for the species =) 01:45:38 I don't really like the idea of using 'Amazonian' though, that seems a bit off. Some of the other possibilities might be fine though 02:02:32 -!- ogaz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:06 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:08:27 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 02:15:16 People suck. 02:16:07 due: more specifically? 02:21:54 Textmode: People who commeent on blog posts with nothing but negativity suck. 02:22:10 ah :/ 02:25:50 btw i something before about changing "slow but tough" monsters like worms. They are a good challenge for melee early game because you can choose to run or not. 02:27:05 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=283&cpage=1#comment-63 02:27:43 -!- raydarken has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:29:57 People just aint no good :) 02:29:58 greensnark: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 02:30:40 Merfolk are guaranteed stuff to throw if they're in a javelineer escort. If not, they get their pre-Shoals-revamp throwables 02:31:00 Apparently they do have a very good chance of getting something to throw though 02:31:20 Let me make that 1 in 3 for throwing spears. 02:33:23 yeha, every merfolk I ran into in Shoals had javelins or spears. 02:33:49 Javelins should only be on javelineers now 02:34:20 Did you see vanilla merfolk carrying javelins? 02:34:54 Hm 02:35:04 I'm pretty sure they were javelins, I might be wrong 02:35:06 !lm br.enter=Shoals -tv 02:35:07 No milestones for due (br.enter=Shoals). 02:35:14 !lm br.enter=Shoal -tv 02:35:18 3. bookofjude, XL13 SpVM, T:36552 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 02:35:28 also, we lots varmin 02:35:34 Oh, varmin is back, nm. 02:35:46 I just restarted it :) 02:36:03 :) <3 02:36:37 I need to learn more about IRC so I can make the bots work out when they're offline and reconnect. 02:41:20 03greensnark * r29148ae7c863 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-gear.cc: Give 1/3 of all vanilla merfolk throwing spears (was 2/3) (due). 02:41:34 Danke! 02:41:57 Hm, the Mara clones get the "throws fire" message when spellcasting. 02:42:36 What does Mara get? 02:42:47 Let me check 02:43:16 Oh, he also gets "throws fire" 02:43:19 There don't seem to be annoy terrain destroying checks. 02:44:19 Should there be? 02:44:41 Terrain destroying checks for what? 02:44:47 Granting god gifts. 02:44:58 I suppose Oka, Trog, Sif and Nemelex ... and Kiku. 02:45:27 Yeah, Xom should be happy to drop stuff into the drink 02:46:09 Oh yeah, I need to disallow Mara from cloning his clones :P 02:46:52 Hehehe. 02:47:45 I'm still waiting for a berserker to meet Mara :P 02:47:53 Sticking killed him with BiA :P 02:47:58 03greensnark * r3e58f0653301 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-clone.cc: Don't allow Mara to clone Mara fakes. 02:49:41 BiA? 02:49:42 I did. 02:49:46 !lm uniq=Mara -tv 02:49:47 1. bookofjude, XL13 SpBe, T:24362 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 02:50:52 He usually doesn't live long enough to clone the BiA though :/ 02:50:59 :( 02:51:00 Unless you get a bear or such :P 02:53:00 greensnark: Where's the code for x-overing things? 02:53:32 Do you know? 02:54:42 directn.cc, I think 02:56:53 ah, it is, thanks 03:01:01 03due * reb308c9a171f 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Use visible_igrd instead of igrd for item_check, top_item_at. 03:02:18 That's one bug solved that I found while looking for the cause of a bug! 03:21:45 Who designed the icy Swamp ending? 03:21:50 It is very cool 03:22:07 I watched someone play it yesterday 03:22:32 They had only bolt of cold, so it was a straight fight between Nemelex summons and hydra simulacra <3 03:22:40 The hydra simulacra did quite well 03:23:04 Me 03:47:02 Monsters pathfind around known shaft traps 03:50:16 Pathfind around, or just avoid? 03:51:07 Avoid 03:51:11 Note for myself though :) 03:52:49 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:55:10 Hey syllogism. 03:57:18 Hm, so Napkin is still refusing to join ##crawl-dev? 03:57:47 why 03:58:07 He was very annoyed by the energy randomness change :P 03:58:18 And the 1.5 hander stat adjustments that didn't change broad axes 03:58:57 Hm, I think all trunk games ever are in the trunk logfile 03:59:12 Which makes it easy to do the unstable scoring stats <3 04:01:37 * due doing SpVM of ... Jiyva, apparently. 04:05:12 Not getting any mutations. 04:12:35 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:14:04 i am +1 for energy randomness. Well, until it kills me badly anyways 04:14:21 :P 04:16:30 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 04:19:21 -!- gal_bolle has joined ##crawl-dev 04:27:10 and the shoals claims another victim. 04:30:15 drown by an aquamancer, ouch. 04:32:34 You have to be trying pretty hard to be drowned by an aquamancer :P 04:32:43 heh 04:33:05 greensnark: he was trapped by the tide heh 04:33:27 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:33 I wonder if it was a case of Ilsuiw 04:33:39 The tide seemed to run in pretty fast 04:33:55 don't seem to be any entires on aquamancer 04:34:08 ah 04:36:42 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:40:42 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:42 -!- Zaba has quit [Changing host] 04:40:42 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:55 The goatman cometh 04:41:15 * greensnark asks due for goattaurs. 04:48:40 Hi. 04:49:05 No goattaurs. 04:49:35 giant iguanataurs 04:50:24 http://www.diablowiki.net/images/7/78/Mon-goatman-concept.jpg 04:50:42 doesn't HAVE to be a taur.. but then i suppose they are just baby minotaurs 04:50:55 but think of it.. a minotaur unique with a pack of goatmen! 04:51:01 :) 04:51:13 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:51:19 Cheers 04:51:28 quick, hide the logs! 04:51:29 dpeg! 04:51:37 dpeg: Did you see the two play-testing posts? 04:51:42 No! 04:51:44 I expect effusive praise from you, I've gotten barely anyy from anyone else. 04:51:47 Was away the whole day :) 04:51:55 night all 04:51:56 greensnark: What about satyrs? 04:52:00 Playing board games, totally old school. 04:52:05 due: Yes! 04:52:12 I like that idea more. 04:52:13 But you know that if you add satyrs 04:52:16 You must add nymphs 04:52:23 Well, I was kidding about goattaurs :P 04:52:26 Heh. 04:52:29 Just yanking Zaba's chain :P 04:52:36 Need a new monster freeze. 04:52:44 dpeg: Hehehehe. 04:52:49 No new monsters :) 04:52:55 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:52:58 "Rule 2: You are only allowed to add new items or monsters, if you propose one to be removed." 04:53:07 remove oklobs 04:53:09 goatmen to replace insubstantial wisps :P 04:53:11 * due proposes the removal of okblobs. 04:53:16 +1 04:53:19 Ok blobs? 04:53:20 dpeg: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=283#more-283 04:53:23 -!- due was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [due] 04:53:26 Why would you want to remove ok blobs. 04:53:27 -!- purge was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [purge] 04:53:30 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 04:53:34 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 04:53:36 dpeg: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=296#more-296 04:53:40 Hehehehe. 04:53:47 due: the writeups are impressive 04:53:53 Thank you :) 04:53:55 Today's took me five hours 04:53:58 Yesterday's took me three. 04:54:00 they should be advertised more in ##crawl 04:54:10 I have been advertising them in crawl. 04:54:12 People just ignore them :( 04:54:20 post it in the topic? or no room? 04:54:41 Don't hve ops in there, so I couldn't eveen if there was room. 04:54:48 i mean if you put that much work into it, it needs a billboard 04:54:52 Anyway, everyone go yell at http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=283#comment-62 04:55:37 03greensnark * rd9c139202be0 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Fix subvault validation not working (Mu). 04:55:45 \o/ 04:55:50 Yaay 04:56:29 dpeg: Should we disallow aquamancer drownings? 04:56:34 i know! ##crawl could have one of those "on join" with news updates 04:56:47 purge: That's not a bad idea. 04:57:50 greensnark: Since its such a rare thing to happen, people will forget and its like a big punch in the gut when it happens :) 04:57:53 greensnark: please explain? 04:58:10 also, if I may say that, Armour training is important =) 04:58:44 dpeg: aquamancer wave can knock the player back one square. If they land in deep water and fail to scramble out, they drown. 04:58:45 due: Awesome blog entries, as usual. The reply by Kingslime is offputting, I hate that. 04:59:13 greensnark: sounds fun, but it is an instadeath :| 04:59:17 :P 04:59:19 Okay 04:59:21 !lg yavar 04:59:22 694. Yavar the Necromancer (L21 DDSu), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, drowned on Shoals:5 on 2010-01-31, with 284254 points after 101985 turns and 12:15:37. 04:59:24 I could disallow knockback into deep water 05:00:00 Okay, so I'm putting in clauses for Sif, Vehu, Kiku, Nemelex, Oka and Trog that breeaks out of gift giving if you're over deep water or lava. 05:00:07 I can't see that there have ever been any checks for it. 05:00:11 thought that was already in 05:00:22 It's not. 05:00:43 !seen kilobyte 05:00:43 I last saw kilobyte at Sun Jan 31 00:13:12 2010 UTC (10h 47m 31s ago) saying me wants! on ##crawl. 05:01:11 Hm, crash on abandonment. 05:01:37 I keep gettnig crashes when I abandon gods under some wizmode circumstances. 05:01:54 Get uss a backtrace, preciouss 05:02:33 which god 05:03:18 Presumably a god with followers that turn hostile on abandonment 05:03:36 Okawaru 05:03:41 Or not 05:03:44 http://pastebin.ca/1772941 05:03:57 It's dying on != LOAD_VISITOR. 05:04:08 Ah 05:04:28 The visit-the-whole-dungeon thing 05:04:38 * due visits your mom. 05:06:21 We can still sacrifice over deep water. 05:09:03 I'm going to disable the ability to sacrifice things that are in deep water that you can't see. 05:09:13 * dpeg always said that deep water and items should have never mixed. 05:09:24 Heh. 05:09:29 03greensnark * rbe57873786d8 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Don't allow aquamancer wave to push actors into hostile terrain. 05:09:31 Well, I'm currently changing it so that they can't ever. 05:09:43 * greensnark sulks at aquamancer change. Sulk sulk sulk. 05:09:51 * due sulks greensnark. 05:10:08 * greensnark wields his legendary +9,+9 trout. 05:10:14 dpeg: It makes things interesting for Shoals with tides, etc. It's just kinda unfinished, so there are bugs. 05:11:46 due: I agree that items washed over by tiles need not go away. 05:12:10 We basically just need to say "items thrown into deep water are destroyed". 05:12:15 And treat them as such, except for merfolk. 05:12:33 what about Sunlight 05:13:09 Well, yeah. 05:13:12 But you won't see them. 05:13:24 It's really a non issue except for some minor instances. 05:13:52 if you throw an abyssal rune into deep water, should you be able to find another one 05:14:00 Hm, agree. 05:14:11 I'll do that now. 05:14:17 wait, do what, allow it? :P 05:14:29 No 05:14:35 throwing the abyssal rune into deep water should destroy it. 05:16:57 yes 05:18:04 03greensnark * rceefb5e9749d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc player.h): [Mantis 609] Autoexplore no longer goes into deep water if the player has ice form. 05:19:18 Just desstroying the item is enough? 05:20:18 Actually items used to be destroyed like this before sorear's change :) 05:20:26 I know. 05:20:36 But just destroying the abyssal rune is enough for it to be recreated again? 05:20:37 I think even lava no longer destroys items 05:20:46 I disagreed strongly with the lava not destroying items. 05:20:55 Yeah, just destroying the item should be enough 05:20:59 due: Yes, me too 05:21:06 If it can destroy the ONE RING! 05:21:07 Should we make them destroy items again? dpeg? 05:21:08 :D 05:22:17 03due * rf81f2d07bf08 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godprayer.cc religion.cc): Don't give gifts on hostile terrain; don't accept unaccessible sacrifices. 05:22:18 03due * r3fc3ad01a0f0 10/crawl-ref/source/terrain.cc: Throwing the Abyssal Rune into deep water destroys it. 05:22:18 Can someone check that commit (god gifts one) to make sure I haven't broken it? 05:22:40 You hit player.h. 05:22:45 will they gift if you are merfolk 05:22:46 due: "inaccessible" :P 05:23:06 The grammar police from India strikes again! :) 05:23:22 Also due's excellent posts were nevertheless guilty of "unresistable" :P 05:23:27 syllogism: No. 05:23:31 HEy! 05:23:33 I did unresistible. 05:23:36 due: Nice summary on the glyph changes, btw 05:23:42 Thank you. That took me two hours. 05:24:03 I specifically remember writing irresistible. 05:24:10 Oh bah. 05:24:12 I recall "unresistable" :P 05:24:13 I missed it on the Chei post. 05:24:22 * due fixes. 05:24:33 due: I used to do similar (less elaborate and more crudely written) summaries on the mailing list. But they'll a lot more exposure on the wordpress. 05:24:47 And get a lot more wankers leaving comments, alas. :) 05:25:54 due: Looks fine 05:26:17 due: Why does deep water destroy the abyssal rune 05:26:20 -!- purge has quit [Quit: !] 05:26:50 * due points up. 05:26:52 I thought it was a case of deep water destroying all dropped items again? 05:27:01 No? 05:27:05 Oh 05:27:12 Just the abyssal rune. 05:27:20 I asked this above and everyone goes "That is a good idea"! 05:27:22 due: yes, why not destroy them all? 05:27:24 due: All I see is a bunch of old fogeys pining for ye old splashing noise 05:27:35 Okay 05:27:35 due: yes, all destruction is a good idea! 05:27:35 I don't care 05:27:36 Someone else change it 05:27:40 :P 05:27:44 * due doesn't care enough to argue about it 05:27:57 What is the current state? 05:28:13 Deep water doesn't destroy items. Except for abyssal runes. 05:28:14 Deep water destroys the Abyssal rune, lava destroys scrolls. 05:28:25 I'd like lava to destroy all items 05:28:35 And if deep water destroys the abyssal rune, it should destroy everything 05:28:40 Or else it could just not destroy the rune 05:28:46 I never bothered enough with to actually chime in: but why not destroy all items dropped in deep water or lava? 05:29:09 I'm open to either scenario re deep water :) 05:29:19 I agree that lava should nuke everything 05:29:30 why would they get destroyed then but not by tides 05:29:42 Lava should destroy all items in my opinion. 05:30:00 I like stuff not being destroyed by deep water, though. 05:30:44 I like the simplicity of monsters dying over deep water and leaving no traces. 05:32:29 Well, they leave traces visible only to merfolk or Fedhas sunlight users, right? 05:32:30 Only to merfolk. 05:32:30 Or I guess ice beasts 05:32:30 greensnark: that's so complicated 05:32:30 you can animate their corpses by the way :P 05:32:31 despite being in deep water 05:32:31 the current should carry it all away 05:32:31 Yeah, there's a bunch of complications because the codebase isn't used to stuff under deep water 05:33:00 Well, I've fixed a lot of those instances tonight. 05:33:00 -!- felirx_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:33:00 But I don't see any perilous complications, and we could make things more interesting in future releases :) 05:33:00 eh 05:33:00 Zaba speaks! 05:33:06 Ensorcelled Hibernation? 05:33:22 I just had a nasty powercut caused by a dying psu. 05:34:56 Did accuracy get changed at all? 05:35:13 Melee to-hit was changed by AC/EV changes 05:35:20 Hm, but not spellcasting? 05:35:27 Not spellcasting 05:35:47 Well, not directly 05:35:58 What's changed then? 05:35:58 If you're swanking around with a large shield, though, expect pain :) 05:36:04 ah, heh 05:36:09 Spell failure 05:36:13 greensnark: yes, it matters 05:37:20 Ok, I could do a bunch of infrastructure stuff now 05:37:30 Or I could look into Armour/Dodging/Stealth skill training 05:37:41 What's the wiki page again :P 05:37:51 -!- felirx has joined ##crawl-dev 05:38:24 greensnark: ADS! ADS! ADS! 05:38:53 AIDS? 05:39:07 We could have one of those communicable diseases like WoW had! 05:39:08 I like new3 from rob for Stealth 05:39:10 Kill all our players off! 05:39:15 I think dodging training is fine right now, isn't it weird to determine training by damage done instead of accuracy 05:39:15 ... wait. We alreayd do that. 05:39:48 The first change I contemplated was to simply ignore the heavy/light distinction for dodging and armour training 05:39:58 I think both use the armour mass 05:40:20 Apparently not for dodging though 05:41:00 We could just change the dodging training mass check to the inverse of the armour training mass check 05:41:09 That would keep things very similar to the current training program 05:41:20 And we could roll out the more advanced formula for 0.7 05:41:25 greensnark: you think my proposal is infeasible? 05:41:26 ah 05:41:45 I think your proposal will be fine, but it will need constant tuning for real games 05:41:45 * dpeg lacks time to fully engage in wiki right now :( 05:41:49 yes 05:42:00 I mean tuning of the constants, not "tuning always" :) 05:42:15 :P 05:42:31 * due lacks sanity to engage i nanything right now 05:43:22 dpeg: What do you say to removing light/heavy distinction but leaving the existing formulae unchange? 05:43:35 For 0.6 05:43:59 greensnark: awkward, but possible 05:44:08 The interim proposal is: dodging training happens based on an item mass roll that is the inverse of the mass roll for armour 05:44:18 greensnark: also fine 05:44:24 Ok 05:44:39 We should put the new formulae early on the 0.7 agenda though 05:44:49 It puts a slight debt on us for 0.7, but that may be better than fiddling with it right now. 05:45:00 Because four weeks of testing for the new formulae may not be enough 05:45:02 dpeg: Yes 05:45:14 Is someone updating the 0.7 agenda? :) 05:46:27 * due points at dpeg. 05:46:47 yes, will do 05:47:02 * dpeg collapses under the load. 05:47:02 :) 05:47:47 I won't be around much this coming week 05:48:34 me neither 05:48:42 giving two talks somewhere else 05:50:23 * greensnark is also busy for the next two weeks. :/ 05:51:59 Johanna was skeptical about March 1 right away :) 05:52:53 I'm on holiday 20th feb - march 13th :) 05:53:07 greensnark: Can you look at my game? 05:53:43 due: Yes? 05:53:43 greensnark: Something odd about this vault... 05:53:57 I'm pretty sure it doesn't have an opening there, nor does it have a second altar in it. 05:54:14 Looks like two overlapping vaults 05:55:27 Take that, Zaba's ant vaults! 05:56:17 you let blork pick up that wand :P 05:56:20 I know 05:56:24 I'm playing recklessly 05:56:31 RoR <# 05:56:35 Boo! :) 05:56:41 ROAR 05:57:26 did that imp pick up a stack of teleportation scrolls 06:01:00 probably 06:06:55 Hm, so the code to train armour skill while resting had the mass check reversed 06:07:16 Which meant that the lightest heavy armour you could find would train armour fastest while resting 06:07:45 amazing 06:08:02 It has a bwross comment too 06:08:11 So either someone broke it accidentally later 06:08:20 Or Brent made a mistake 06:08:26 Hm 06:08:35 I thought the intention was that you could only train armour passively at low armour skill 06:08:42 since I never looked at the code 06:08:44 Friendlies shold walk through neutral plants 06:11:45 Book of power, nice. 06:12:14 greensnark: passive training is bullshit 06:12:30 Stupid nasty comments on people's suggestion posts are bullshit. 06:12:45 due: there are many sources of bullshit 06:12:53 Yep! 06:12:56 due: what are you referring toß 06:12:58 ? 06:13:22 The friend that got me into crawl wrot ean FR/BR about sleeping monsters being able to wield weapons. 06:13:30 Core Xii just wrote a stupid response to it. 06:13:33 * due in a bad mood, kinda. 06:13:41 typical for core xii 06:13:42 wat 06:13:55 later folks, lunch now 06:13:58 bye 06:14:03 core xii? 06:14:13 someone on the mantis tracker 06:14:51 oh, ok 06:14:52 due: Don't stress about Crawl! It's a terrible thing 06:14:58 greensnark: Eh. 06:15:27 There are lots of juvenile players, don't mind them bitching :) 06:15:46 * greensnark is also juvenile. 06:15:48 At heart. 06:16:28 I should make some more remarkably annoying vaults. 06:16:49 Your anthill vaults have already earned you a place high on my axe list, be warned 06:16:56 custom monsters hasn't been utilized nearly enough :P 06:16:59 Any more points you score in that direction will lead to visit by axe 06:17:06 Or visit with axe 06:17:10 I think I should make some more ant vaults. 06:17:12 Or some unfortunate activity involving axes. 06:17:19 they seem to be very successful 06:17:19 havent 06:17:44 due made a map involving fire-breathing rats <3 06:17:55 Just imagine the hilarity! 06:18:02 Fir ebreathing bees. 06:18:07 Bees? 06:18:11 What about my rats?! 06:18:18 No, rats are there. 06:18:23 But there need to be fire breathing bees. 06:18:25 Oh, ok :) 06:18:32 we need butterflies that create rain clouds 06:18:38 that too 06:18:42 I suggested air elementals 06:18:51 But yeah, rain clouds work too :) 06:20:35 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:22:01 I think Fedhas is my favourite new god. 06:22:41 Fedhas will be my favourite god as soon as dpeg agrees to include pineapples! 06:22:55 How can we not have pineapples 06:22:59 * greensnark is pining for pineapples. 06:23:58 Pineapple features: delicious to eat, excellent throwing weapons (sling bullet style damage when thrown by hand), bonus damage when thrown by halflings at wights! 06:24:16 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 06:24:20 Who can resist the call of the pineapple 06:25:42 ... halflings at wights? 06:26:25 butterfly spells:mislead 06:26:38 custom monsters... reminds me of the Red Alert mod with tesla dogs 06:26:53 due: OOTS reference :P 06:27:23 Oh. 06:28:02 due: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html 06:28:06 Also http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html 06:30:55 !tell dpeg The main sf.net site stil links to the SF bug tracker. 06:30:56 due: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 06:32:18 greensnark: thanks for the ood spawns 06:32:24 greensnark: my spvm eats them upfor exp 06:32:32 :P 06:33:53 my MuVm almost managed to clear all d1 oods :P 06:33:56 lair <3 06:34:16 but he found an ideally situated teletrap 06:34:32 syllogism: "almost"? :) 06:34:46 And as long as it's not macroable, I don't mind too much 06:34:52 !lg syllogism char=muvm 06:34:53 3. meneril the Stinger (L6 MuVM), slain by a kobold (a -1,+1 orcish dagger) on D:1 on 2010-01-22, with 290 points after 43047 turns and 0:22:16. 06:34:55 Hm, I should go back for the book of power 06:35:02 I ran away from an orc knight since it wandered past the teletrap :P 06:35:06 after being meph clodued 06:35:10 :P 06:35:21 What a glorious end :P 06:35:51 there was a storm dragon skeleton I wouldn't have been able to kill anyway :P 06:36:11 Why couldn't you kill the kobold and die to something cool :P 06:36:20 That's a huge blot on your resue :P 06:36:22 i think the knight was throwing things at me 06:36:23 *resume 06:36:29 and there was an orc wizard too 06:36:29 Dying to a kobold after 43k turns :P 06:36:48 !lg meneril s=killer 06:36:48 1286 games for meneril: 826x , 70x a hobgoblin, 55x a kobold, 21x an orc priest, 21x an orc wizard, 19x a goblin, 17x a gnoll, 14x a giant gecko, 12x a centaur, 10x a jackal, 9x a snake, 9x an ogre, 9x an orc, 8x a smoke demon, 8x Jessica, 6x Terence, 6x a giant bat, 6x a giant iguana, 5x a rat, 5x Sigmund, 5x a hound, 5x a white imp, 4x an ufetubus, 4x a skeletal warrior, 4x an ooze, 4x a ynoxinu... 06:37:04 who !nick'd it? 06:44:51 Keskitalo: Yo. 06:47:47 I'm going to read in bed, night folk. 06:52:59 greensnark: I agree to pineapples if we remove pizzas in return. 06:52:59 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 06:53:06 :) 06:53:15 That's also good for supporting healthy life styles among crawlers. 06:53:21 :D 06:54:09 greensnark: I am serious. You add the pineapple, I remove the pizza and we're fine! 06:54:21 What, really? :P 06:54:28 I wasn't even serious about the pineapple :P 06:54:29 due: Good night, Jude! 06:54:32 greensnark: I am! 06:54:40 pineapply >>>>> pizza 06:54:51 What about the throwing weapon aspect :P 06:55:28 It's a deal if I can give them good damage as throwing weapons :P 06:55:31 Falls inside my humour radius. 06:55:38 +1 06:55:42 Oooh 06:55:50 Ok, I'll put it on my todo :P 06:56:00 Whereas pizza delivery service is far outside of my humour radius. 06:57:02 I always said that the abundance of fruits would be better if they had some distinction apart from nutrition. Well, the distinction does not seem to be a problem for pineapples. 06:57:29 They're scary when thrown :) 06:57:32 The Kobold throws a +0 pineapple. You die... 06:57:41 No enchantments, sorry :P 06:57:51 pineapple of returning 06:58:04 Although Fedhas should totally make fruits explode in inventory when abandoned :P 06:58:23 greensnark: <3 06:58:35 Just kidding! 06:58:38 Okay, wiki duties now, then preparation of talk. 06:58:48 greensnark: it's good! 06:58:56 Too easy to avoid though 06:58:57 Hilarity is great. 06:59:02 So not really meaningful 06:59:03 true 06:59:16 Retribution effect: apple storm 06:59:22 pineapple storm 06:59:37 Spriggans would queue up to abandon Fedhas :D 06:59:41 :) 06:59:55 exploding pineapple storm 07:02:04 greensnark: I am moving the Armour etc training to postponed, right? 07:02:14 dpeg: Yes, 0.7 07:02:32 I'll remove the heavy/light checks but leave the training numbers mostly unchanged 07:02:44 I'm almost done with that, got distracted by calls 07:03:08 I am not sure why the amulets are listed under Crucial. Is there anything wrong with them? 07:03:22 They're not crucial 07:03:28 I think i added them in a hurry under the wrong heading 07:03:34 I do want to fix the name "Stasis" though 07:03:35 no sweat, will move 07:03:43 it'S a good name 07:03:54 Also: there was a proposal to allow berserker rage with "oStasis, but without the haste or post-zerk slow 07:04:10 yes, I saw that, seems okay 07:04:18 What about the chance of passing out? 07:04:32 good call, either way is possible 07:04:52 syllogism: Does "oFaith need fixing to reduce god gift spam? 07:05:05 i.e. should I make it not affect gift timeout reduction 07:05:21 Or is it fine as is 07:05:34 I haven't spent much time sanity-checking the new amulets 07:05:41 ballistos (as a non-Fedhasite) seem okay now -- confirm or complaints? 07:06:47 it seems fine for now, I don't think anyone would wear it if it didn't reduce timers 07:07:10 The last serious bits left are submergers and tiles. 07:07:22 !seen henryci 07:07:22 I last saw henryci at Sun Jan 31 00:10:53 2010 UTC (12h 56m 29s ago) quitting with message Quit: henryci. 07:08:10 !tell henryci Hi! Do you think you can provide the missing Ctrl-O piece (show range of undetected branches)? That'd rock! 07:08:10 dpeg: OK, I'll let henryci know. 07:09:15 !tell kilobyte You said that the outstanding submergers's bit (second part) would be easy to code. We need it! It's the last missing feature (apart from tiles). Thanks! 07:09:16 dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 07:09:30 Ok cool, I'll leave faith as-is, then 07:09:57 So I will downgrade Amulets to "Feedback", okß 07:10:02 likewise with ballistos 07:13:27 done 07:14:36 <<<<>>>>>>_ 07:14:57 This could be a tad better, but I don't know if it's worth the trouble 07:21:52 I hope that powergamers will like the resists from Che. 07:24:08 This concept of running away does not work so well with good old Che. 07:27:25 * dpeg likes lengthy monologues. 07:32:33 03greensnark * r2b02a1eb64ee 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Interim armour/dodging/stealth training changes to remove heavy/light armour distinction. 07:32:56 yay! 07:37:35 Ozocubu's still checks for light armour 07:38:39 greensnark: use EVP instead? 07:38:48 Adjusted or raw? 07:38:56 And what should the criterion be 07:38:57 hm 07:39:08 Need a formula :) 07:39:17 It should also be deterministic 07:39:36 it should be raw 07:40:06 EP <= 3? 07:40:15 Er, < 2 07:40:19 <2 yes 07:40:49 < 3 would allow ring mail and swamp dragon stuff 07:41:12 dpeg: Thoughts? 07:41:29 maybe that would be better, no one uses swamp dragon armour right now 07:41:56 I didn't even include it on my spreadsheet it seems :P 07:42:02 :P 07:42:30 Ok, < 3 it is 07:42:43 Unless dpeg comes back and wants something different 07:48:30 Hm, with this definition paladins will get dodging if they start in ring mail 07:48:53 -!- Madtrixr has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:05 I could either make it not apply to newgame skill assignment or give paladins chain mail or something :P 07:49:12 Is chain mail too good for paladins? :P 07:49:30 yes 07:49:36 Scale? :P 07:50:02 Or I could just special-case the paladin armour/dodging check 07:50:12 Or let them suffer with dodging skill even in ring mail, hm! 07:52:09 Or we could drop swamp dragon EVP to -1 :P 07:52:19 And mottled to 0 :P 07:52:59 -1 is already basically 0 :P 07:53:36 Can't make out if that's a no or a yes :P 07:53:45 ??swamp dragon armour 07:53:45 swamp dragon armour[1/1]: A magical armour made from the scales of a swamp dragon. It confers resistance to poison on its wearer. (heavy armour; AC 7, EV -2, +pois, 20 aum) 07:54:06 SDA is pretty good value for money 07:54:13 I'll leave it alone, easiest :P 07:54:26 EVP < 3 is okay, the spell's description should clearly say so 07:54:56 greensnark: don't worry about Paladins, I think we'll remove them before long. 07:55:14 I'll leave it at EVP < 2 so I can unify the remaining checks 07:55:19 okay 07:56:31 can't use it with elven armour then though 07:56:40 The elven armour check is still intact 07:56:44 oh 07:56:46 This is only for non-elven armour 07:56:58 Actually elven armour may be too good now :P 07:57:14 And I completely forgot to account for it in the armour/dodging thing :/ 07:57:20 Blech 07:57:32 What's our policy on skill training involving elven armour? 07:57:51 so right now it trains armour? 07:57:52 mostly 07:57:54 Yes 07:58:15 Right now it's identical to every other racial armour for skill training 07:58:22 Which violates its description :P 08:00:00 greensnark: elven armour should be like any other armour, except for the Spc boost? 08:00:14 dpeg: Ok, that makes things easy :) 08:00:18 I just have to change the description 08:00:22 What about Ozocubu's 08:00:29 Do they allow you to use Ozocubu's regardless? 08:00:40 wtf "they"? 08:00:45 ah, elven 08:00:47 Elven armours 08:00:47 right now it does 08:01:01 I am against it. 08:01:02 Yes, right now they allow you to use Ozocubu's as the last vestige of the light/heavy wars 08:01:06 Ok, removing 08:01:08 EVP < 2, nothing else 08:01:20 So elf armours now only give the spellcasting boost and stealth bonus 08:01:30 We can always expand on the pattern later, but it's good to have a very simple and clear state now. 08:01:33 yes 08:01:36 Ok 08:02:28 if they don't train armour either I don't see any reason to use them 08:02:57 They do train armour 08:03:11 but how slowly 08:03:35 They weigh far less, so pretty slowly 08:03:52 * greensnark ponders. 08:04:18 Can't really fix that without changing armour training to the new proposals 08:04:48 Or base armour training off EP 08:04:53 this is only b/c you use the wrong Armour training formula =) 08:05:07 Yes, I know :P 08:05:29 But I lack the time in this release to switch to the new formulae :) 08:05:58 I fully understand :) 08:06:33 I could just fudge the elf armour masses :P 08:06:53 Which would make elf armour very good :P 08:07:00 Since it would train dodging and stealth faast :P 08:07:04 And armour at the normal rate :P 08:07:11 And give spc bonus :P 08:07:30 I just burned through 2 teleports, 1 heal wounds, 2 healing, 3 blinking, 1 mapping to jump out of the pan 08:07:36 with the new dodging formula -ev items will be useful :P 08:07:38 What pan? 08:07:48 a deadly level :) 08:07:52 syllogism: How so? 08:07:53 syllogism: EV-5 ? 08:08:17 syllogism: Is this for the EV number or dodging training or ...? 08:08:34 greensnark: the postponed training proposal 08:08:41 fucking shit 08:09:02 dpeg's language standards have plummeted deplorably :P 08:09:11 though even at 0 ev stone giants frequently miss 08:09:19 so better watch out for them :P 08:09:46 syllogism: the proposal is that you train if you *evade*. How can EV-5 help there? 08:09:59 if you are a heavy armour user and don't want to waste xp :P 08:10:17 syllogism: you don't waste xp 08:10:17 That sounds ok to me :) 08:10:29 dpeg: yes it's marginal and I'm not really serious 08:10:30 syllogism: this assumes that EV is useless 08:10:47 syllogism: okay, I always worry if I should make a note when you say something 08:11:33 dpeg: I'm still not fan of the dodging training proposal as you don't really have to victory dance dodging right now but you may have to with the new one 08:11:35 Elven ring mail weighs 200 instead of 250 08:11:41 even with constant tweaked 08:12:30 and many hard hitting monsters have low accuracy 08:12:44 syllogism: but that'd mean you train Dodging all the time? 08:13:08 right now you literally train it all the time 08:13:16 passively? 08:13:22 no 08:13:23 Also note that I am assuming that we use the pool-in-the-past system which abolishes the explicit xp pool 08:13:26 but I mean every attack 08:13:36 oh 08:16:01 syllogism: ? 08:16:28 03Keskitalo * r688dabc3f9f5 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Recoloured the crocodile tile. 08:16:29 dpeg: well I've no idea how the pool system might work so can't really comment on that 08:16:54 Hey, I must look at the crocodile tile 08:17:10 oo baby alligator tile :P 08:17:19 03greensnark * r977d6b90699a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor.h newgame.cc player.cc player.h spells1.cc tutorial.cc): Change light armour checks to EP < 2 (all the existing light armours except elven armours). 08:17:37 oh no tile yet :( 08:18:41 time for nap 08:18:44 Give 1/2xp for banishment kills (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=631) by Porkchop 08:19:34 you'd then have to give 1/2 xp for killing the abyssed creature in abyss :P 08:19:55 Why are players so obsessed with xp :P 08:20:00 03greensnark * r72324ce5f582 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/spells.txt: Update Ozocubu's armour description to spell out the kinds of armour that block it. 08:21:22 Ok, I think I'm done with this ADS mess :P 08:21:43 Any other dev should feel free to fix problems, I may not be active again until mid Feb 08:22:37 !lg * cdo x=v 08:22:41 !lg * cdo x=v,cv 08:23:27 73238. [v=0.6.0-a1] clouded the Elf of Death (L27 DENe), worshipper of Sif Muna, escaped with the Orb and 10 runes on 2010-01-31, with 4708862 points after 184944 turns and 19:21:24. 08:23:27 73238. [v=0.6.0-a1;cv=0.6] clouded the Elf of Death (L27 DENe), worshipper of Sif Muna, escaped with the Orb and 10 runes on 2010-01-31, with 4708862 points after 184944 turns and 19:21:24. 08:24:02 What does that "1" signify in "a1" ? 08:24:10 First alpha? 08:24:12 Do we actually update that 08:24:42 !lg * cdo cv=0.6 s=v 08:24:43 17649 games for * (cdo cv=0.6): 15213x 0.6.0-a1, 1664x 0.6.0-a0, 772x 0.6 08:25:37 I trust we're not going to add -bX qualifiers 08:25:43 Because that would complicate life for Henzell :P 08:26:14 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:26:52 !lg * s=cv 08:26:53 523541 games for *: 207526x 0.5, 153717x 0.4, 84395x 0.3, 42390x 0.2, 17863x 0.1, 17650x 0.6 08:27:24 -!- Henzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30:07 Oh, awesome, I've screwed up the db :/ 08:31:06 Still, only 23k trunk games :P 08:31:12 Shouldn't take more than a few hours to recover :P 08:32:34 Looks like i have to spend a few hours waiting for the dud rows to be deleted first :/ 08:32:38 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:51 how did that happen 08:33:06 I smashed the version field for trunk games :P 08:33:29 Because I used the postgres syntax to append strings :P 08:33:34 Instead of the mysql syntax 08:33:55 'a' || 'b' is 'ab' in postgres, and 1 in MySQL :P 08:35:31 03j-p-e-g * r93057974cdb8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (coordit.h files.cc mon-transit.cc stuff.cc): Make Yred's gifts follow through stairways even if behind zombies. 08:46:18 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 08:48:52 REST API for mantis (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=64) by doy 08:49:15 Ooh 08:50:10 Hey, that's an old issue 09:09:54 -!- TGW has joined ##crawl-dev 09:13:59 Make "Product Version/Branch" a required field (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=633) by Napkin 09:16:24 @??rakshasa 09:16:24 rakshasa (08R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 30-80 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible | Res: 06magic(133), 03poison | XP: 1070 | Sp: rakshasa summon, blink, invisibility, teleport self. 09:24:06 @??worm 09:24:06 worm (04w) | Speed: 6 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 1/5 | Damage: 12 | Res: 06magic(13) | XP: 12. 09:24:10 @??green rat 09:24:10 green rat (09r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 5/11 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 10. 09:24:43 worms are hd 5 :f 09:29:03 Add field for global profiles to allow filtering by OS/ASCII/Tiles/CAO/CDO (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=635) by Napkin 09:29:52 -!- Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 09:34:05 Remove "Advanced View" in Report Issue page (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=636) by Napkin 09:40:29 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring-alpha/overview.html 09:40:48 This graph is pretty amusing: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring-alpha/per-day.html 09:43:50 cool, i started playing right when there was a boom on player number 09:44:12 weird :p 09:44:57 Oh, where info still points at cao games :P 09:45:20 And morgue paths are broken, bleh 09:45:25 what happened at 20080801? 09:45:38 all three graphs hit zero and stayed for three months :| 09:45:59 2008 tournament, probably 09:46:22 no, I mean 09:46:39 nobody won, and almost nobody played almost zero games 09:47:07 !lg 1 09:47:17 no henz 09:47:20 doh 09:50:56 TGW: That sounds like activity going to cao for the tournament 09:51:04 This is only for devel versions 09:51:07 oh, ok 09:51:56 The sharp dip for the 0.5 release is amusingly evident 09:53:31 TGW: You're #30 on the player list :P 09:53:36 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring-alpha/best-players-total-score.html 09:53:37 wooo 09:53:48 Not far behind Zippy! 09:53:50 hahaha, total score? yeah right 09:54:10 is this still cdonly? 09:54:12 Well, I'm down on #83 :P 09:54:29 scoring-alpha is only for pre-release versions on CDO, yes 09:54:46 ok 09:58:20 wow 5100 games on the first player's belt 09:58:26 is that for real? 09:58:30 no 09:59:06 !lg ivo s=ktyp 09:59:11 Artifact armor same color as normal armor (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=637) by Core Xii 09:59:13 bot or test char? 09:59:18 stat scumming 09:59:19 orite 09:59:21 scumming 09:59:29 which is pretty impressive considering stats aren't even random on cdo 09:59:37 they were until recently 09:59:43 This includes stats from 0.5 and 0.4 dev builds 09:59:46 that is true 10:00:01 I don't think Ivo has even played any 0.6 games 10:00:26 Oh, he has 10:00:31 One game :P 10:00:50 haha yeah 10:00:55 rest are 0.5, on cdo 10:01:28 why are cdo's stats hosted on akrasiac by the way? 10:03:30 Napkin is very strict on security, and he hasn't had the time to audit the scoring scripts 10:04:15 cao is a VM, unlike cdo, and it's easier to do stuff there 10:04:38 If I rewrote the scripts to use SQLite I could probably get Napkin to host it on cdo 10:05:35 "your shield and armour prevent you from hitting the foo" is a bit ridiculous when you're not wearing a shield 10:05:44 Oh :P 10:06:19 I see I neglected to check for zero penalty cases 10:12:49 03greensnark * rc756fcc4773a 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Fix bogus warnings about armour/shield penalties blocking hits (TGW). 10:13:18 * TGW carves another tally into his wall 10:14:27 teleportitis + tele control could use some interface loving 10:15:03 currently, controlled teleports give you a --more-- then require an escape to cancel, then prompt you 10:15:12 which gets a bit tedious 10:17:21 Can you add that to one of the messagewindow tracker items 10:17:54 it's not really a messagewindow issue 10:18:09 Oh 10:24:20 cTele + unintentional teleports (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=638) by TGW 10:29:21 misleading item colours (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=639) by TGW 10:35:24 hm. 10:35:44 TGW, I get a --more--, but I can space through it, rather than use escape 10:36:01 zaba: I mean the actual ctele choice 10:36:18 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:36:50 ah 10:40:42 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56:51 I just got a more with nothing on the other end :| 10:57:40 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:47 dpeg: What board games did you play? 10:58:47 -!- TGW is now known as TGWi 10:59:59 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 11:02:23 -!- Twinge- has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:06 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:05:53 -!- Eifeltrampel has left ##crawl-dev 11:24:37 why do alligators have babies? (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=640) by Lemuel 11:25:00 <3 war puppies 11:25:18 yeah, do it 11:29:05 Oh related though - Are baby alligators set up to be a lower alligator, so if they level up in combat they'll become alligators like e.g. orc->orc warrior? :) 11:29:13 yes 11:29:28 Excellent. 11:29:34 -!- Twinge- is now known as Twinge 11:33:27 -!- Twinge- has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:23 -!- raydarken has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:33 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:44:04 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 11:46:44 -!- Twinge- has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:48:40 -!- Twinge- has joined ##crawl-dev 11:52:09 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:55:08 Monsters can swap weapons to attack you while confused? 11:55:23 monster confusion is kinda weird 11:55:36 twinge-, they can hit you with /oDisint too :) 11:55:51 yeah 11:55:57 Yeah, their wands are accurately targeting you instead of random stull 11:56:40 Twinge-: the wand thing is already reported, probably report the weapon swap thing and mark it related 11:56:47 k 12:04:48 Confued monsters will swap weapons to attack you (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=641) by Twinge 12:06:55 Does direction targeting work at all now 12:07:18 target_unshifted_dirs is ignored (grr) and hitting shift+dir jumps the cursor several steps 12:07:40 what did that do? 12:07:44 working locally 12:07:49 shift-target but without shift? 12:07:54 Yes 12:07:59 :| 12:08:05 works for me (well, without target_unshifted_dirs) 12:08:14 Let me try a local build 12:08:33 but shift+dir for me fires in the appropriate direction 12:08:52 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:05 green: It worked for me when I recently tried it in a pretty recent trunk version 12:09:16 Possibly this is only for Ely minor heal 12:09:41 Or something in my config is confusing it :P 12:11:46 Compile time is really ridiculous on old hardware :P 12:11:47 -!- Twinge- has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:11:57 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:23 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:14:47 Ok, apparently Ely heal-other prompt is a special case for some reason 12:14:54 -!- Anym has joined ##crawl-dev 12:15:25 like airstrike 12:15:34 and fire storm 12:15:55 well, those two are smite targeted 12:16:00 isn't that too 12:16:01 heal-other isn't, is it? 12:16:02 or was? 12:16:11 Oh, heal other is smite targeted? 12:16:24 Interesting 12:17:28 You know, Zin is an awesome god 12:17:37 It feels so good when you stop worshipping Zin 12:18:20 -!- Timbermaw has quit [Quit: later!] 12:18:43 Ok, the combination of messagewindow changes and targeting changes have me snorgled 12:18:53 Every time I shoot an arrow at something I get a --more-- 12:19:01 With no message after the more 12:19:24 the "no message" thing is when it tries to print the final - line after printing 6 lines 12:19:35 7 lines rather 12:19:39 Oh, this is with clear_messages turned off :) 12:19:41 not sure what a good solution for that is 12:20:01 If I turn it on the + (--more-- in disguise) pops up in places I don't expect and I don't notice it until I wonder why the game isn't responding to my keystrokes :P 12:24:22 So SA is now blaming the energy randomization every time they stub their toes :P 12:24:37 "Well, this came at a hilarious time. I just lost a very promising wizard to erolcha. Which woudnt be that shitty, except she had two turns on me when I ran into her. I was auto exploring, and she came into view and IMMEDIATELY abyssed me. I didnt have a single turn to react." 12:24:57 to be fair that is pretty shitty 12:25:00 So naturally that gets blamed on the energy randomisation, even though it happened quite often before the change 12:25:08 @??Erolcha 12:25:08 Erolcha (12O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 54 | AC/EV: 3/7 | Damage: 20 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(56) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 638 | Sp: b.venom, mystic blast, invisibility, confuse, slow, teleport self / magic dart, paralyse, haste, b.lightning, confuse, teleport self / paralyse, crystal spear, blink, b.fire, b.cold, minor healing / paralyse, throw flame, invisibility, teleport ot 12:25:18 speed 10, so it's more likely hideously bad luck 12:26:26 SA has done worse (remember aizul!) 12:26:39 link to thread? 12:26:58 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=142#post371838362 12:27:42 So far all I've seen is that the energy randomisation makes the game a whole lot easier :P 12:27:53 It's ridiculously easy to run away from normal speed monsters now :P 12:28:02 Energy randomisation? 12:28:02 yeah 12:28:20 dev team keeps saying the game is too easy and then proceeds to make it easier :P 12:28:26 people keep complaining about this, but the things they keep complaining about are things that were entirely possible before too 12:28:32 Oh, wait, there's a link in that link. 12:28:35 * greensnark slaps syllogism with a trout. 12:29:01 see: shoals :P 12:29:08 :P 12:29:16 Here's the thing, evasion characters are worse than AC characters in actually surviving because even with a huge Dodging apt and lots of levels in the skill, there's still a chance that the enemy will succeed at say, 2 hits at 30% chance and then you'll be dead (or close to it anyway) without guranteed armor reduction. 12:29:16 shoals made the game easier? 12:29:21 what is wrong with people 12:29:46 do people that say things like these even try the things they're complaining about? 12:29:50 doy: therefore energy randomisation sucks? or is this something else 12:29:54 TGWi: something else 12:29:57 aw 12:30:03 doy, ppl that say stuff like that probably die too early too be able to 12:30:05 Actually these are all related whines 12:30:06 i imagine they have not played an ev char properly 12:30:10 eith: exactly 12:30:16 that's my point 12:30:21 Once the energy randomization went in, people were whining about how the devteam could fix something else 12:30:25 ogres are sort of like ev characters aren't they? 12:30:34 Someone pointed out that the team is working on AC/EV changes 12:30:37 well, my ogre had issues with taking too much damage 12:30:40 So now the whine encompasses these cahnges :P 12:31:15 I was eating a banana and the energy I gained was apparently randomized and I starved shortly afterwards 12:31:22 :P 12:31:26 haha 12:31:43 :P 12:32:01 but a char with < 20 EV isn't really an ev-char imo ;D 12:32:02 so I wielded a staff of energy and it drained all my MP! 12:32:17 tgwi, they do that thing now? 12:32:23 cbus: no 12:32:47 And what's kiting? 12:33:21 anym, seen the big bang theory? :D 12:33:26 green: I've been having the same problems with the message window. And I also only get 6 lines, not 7 12:33:36 cbus: Nope. 12:33:45 in one episode they go out warkiting :D 12:33:48 or something 12:33:56 anym: alternating between moving faster than your enemies and hitting things so that you don't take much/any damage 12:34:09 And how could Erolcha ever come into view and act on the same turn before the energy change, unless you were a Naga? 12:34:26 Ah. 12:34:29 Twinge_: You move, bringing Erolcha into view; it's her turn to act next. 12:34:35 twinge_: maybe your summon wandered off and erolcha casted haste 12:34:38 Sigmund, the naga shaped shifter (shapeshifter) 12:34:41 haha, that's awesome 12:34:53 doy: wait what? 12:35:01 did sig poly into a shapeshifter? 12:35:05 Ah. 12:36:17 TGWi: yeah 12:36:28 that's pretty cool 12:38:05 this post is golden 12:38:33 dude says "get rid of sid!" and talks about how all the functions could be reassigned to various skills (armour, fighting for weight cap) 12:38:44 concludes with "Well it makes more sense to me anyway, the devs should just get rid of them, instead of trying to re-balancing the rest of the game to make them important." 12:39:20 sid? 12:39:30 Stats :P 12:39:33 stats 12:40:08 Mmm. 12:41:04 !tell dpeg CDO activity: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring-alpha/per-day.html 12:41:05 greensnark: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 12:41:49 I wouldn't mind removing stats. Although I would re-assign their effects to skills, but rather a function of level and species. 12:43:58 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:44:10 After all, most of your stats are already determined by that. Of the 60+ stat points of a winning character only 9 are typically distributed by the player, aren't they? 12:48:20 -!- Scrubber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:42 oh dear 12:48:52 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:26 Anym: at that point, what do you gain by removing stats? 12:49:42 you still have to have some way to indicate where those effects are coming from 12:50:28 dg would be sort of perplexing 12:51:34 Well, less numbers. E.g. carrying capacity, could be based on from body frame and character level. 12:52:03 Don't forget stat-boosting items 12:52:18 Deciding whether to pick up a ring of strength for the CC boost is semi-meaningful now 12:52:48 my sphu i played a few weeks ago was wearing a ring of +6str basically all game 12:52:49 Really? Good. 12:52:51 Removing stats would be a lot more work than making them more meaningful at this point :P 12:53:00 greensnark: that was what I found funny 12:53:16 saying "TOO MUCH REBALANCING" immediately after suggesting tying weight cap to fighting and armour 12:55:57 "...instead of fixing something like the disparity between AC and EV or the disparity between STR, INT, and DEX?" 12:55:59 hey, good news! 12:58:51 "It would also help if they implemented the suggested change where starting stats are no longer random. If I'm playing a DSWz with 15 intelligence, I don't much care if he dies at level 1. When I'm playing one with 20+ intelligence, you'd better believe I'm going to pillar dance." 12:59:02 I'm done, sorry 13:00:27 Yeah, that thread was all a bunch of players complaining about health care reform 13:01:29 stats have been random for what, half a year? 13:01:32 nonrandom 13:01:43 It's been several months 13:01:57 But most players play released versions only 13:02:06 So they were reacting to the energy change in isolation 13:02:13 Perfectly normal :P 13:03:15 the more i hear the whining, the more i'm convinced that the energy change was a good idea 13:03:41 I should play a few more games, but it actually seems to have reduced difficulty overall 13:03:49 It's very easy to shake a monster now 13:04:07 you know what I think should be done? 13:04:34 the starting sustenance should be randomized by like 20 points, as should all the hunger thresholds 13:04:41 so I'm not tempted to count food 13:05:59 greensnark: dpeg said that he'd have been okay with energy randomization that was only 0/+1 13:06:05 rather than -1/0/+1 13:06:47 Hee 13:07:01 Yeah, that would fix the too-easy thing :P 13:18:37 energy randomisation hurts bat dancing :[ 13:18:50 oh noes 13:20:07 Spell targeting warnings (also, spelling?) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=642) by Stathol 13:28:38 You drop an uncursed ring of hunger {was cursed}. 13:28:49 shouldn't the inscription be cleared? 13:28:58 i thought that was fixed 13:29:07 it was 13:29:13 m - an uncursed ring of teleportation (1.0 aum) 13:29:14 I think what was fixed was the accumulation of "was cursed" 13:29:24 no, it was the IDed thing 13:29:29 either that or both 13:29:32 File a bug! 13:29:35 6b485cb30929 13:29:44 sounds like it was trying to fix that at least 13:30:10 Item generation in trees (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=643) by Stathol 13:30:39 heh 13:30:44 is that the shop inventory bug again? 13:30:58 it looks like it 13:31:48 the previous fix probably didn't take transparent walls into account 13:32:58 I thought items were never displayed on the level edge 13:33:34 shrug, they were for a while, and then that was supposedly fixed 13:34:37 Evenings! 13:34:46 -!- Anym has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 13:34:51 Ah, this must be one of the targeting changes 13:35:02 The item isn't displayed, but using 'x' reveals it 13:35:05 I thought the SA thread had been quite low on devhate lately, I should go read now I suppose. :) 13:36:18 I see the King Slime person replied more civilly after due's response. 13:36:37 greensnark: that's not how it sounds from the bug report 13:37:05 hmmm, well, might be 13:37:15 Keskitalo: Yeah, sounds much better 13:37:24 doy: Well, that's the behaviour in the save I downloaded 13:37:26 :) 13:37:30 ah, okay 13:37:31 (: 13:37:43 I actually have no idea how he found the item in the first place 13:37:47 yeah 13:37:55 Looks like a level-headed reply can pay off; I'd just ignore which I suppose doesn't build towards anything.. 13:38:03 Also: the + --more-- prompts interrupt autoexplore :P 13:38:20 greensnark: Weeell, did you like the new croc colours? I tried to make it not blend to Lair floor, seemed ok. :) 13:40:04 If you did go see the tile :> 13:40:10 Alligators need new ones, yeah. 13:40:24 Or just ones considering they have no old ones. 13:41:07 Keskitalo: It's very green :) 13:42:05 I haven't seen it in the Lair, because recompiling tiles takes forever :) 13:44:14 Aha, autoexplore also reports the item 13:46:41 Hum - Is there any in-game/non-spoily way to learn 'snake 5 is much harder than snake 4, vault 8 is much harder than vault 7' and such? 13:47:36 There is 13:47:42 You go to Snake:5 and take a look around 13:47:44 you play a bit and notice that "branch ends are hard" 13:47:52 03greensnark * re350cfb8144f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc travel.cc): [Mantis 643] Fix shop items being reported by 'x' look around and autoexplore. 13:48:33 I wonder if there's a better way to warn of that. 13:49:00 "Warnings: the contents of this cup may be extremely hot"? 13:49:07 i don't think it's reasonable to design for "an unspoiled player should be able to win the first character they get past lair" 13:49:07 "Do not eat the packaging material"? 13:49:56 the "avoid requiring spoilers" concept is really only for things where you could play through and never figure out what's going on 13:49:59 doy: You say that like all the new mobs in Zot or hell even surviving Vault:8 knowing it'll be hard will be pushovers :P 13:50:29 Twinge_: I find it quite annoying that the game is getting more and more verbose with its futile warnings as it is :P 13:50:31 if you play through, and die to something, and then realize "maybe i should do this better in the future", that's fine 13:50:43 green: How is it common sense that you're just exploring down and suddenyl bam you're in an entry vault surrounded by your impeneding death? :P 13:50:54 Twinge_: that's irrelevant 13:51:05 The game is meant to be experienced 13:51:08 yeah 13:51:10 I did not die my first visit to Vault:8 13:51:24 I'm tired of efforts to smother every possible action with warnings noises :P 13:51:57 Rather than warnings in-game, maybe a simple mention in the manual? 13:52:05 Ye gods 13:52:10 nobody reads the manual 13:52:13 the vault guards serve as a warning 13:52:28 the manual is purely a reference manual 13:52:47 syllogism: What about descending into a Snake:5 entry vault? :P 13:53:04 Twinge_: the greater nagas serve as a warning 13:53:30 it's not like any of the branch ends are one-hit kills by the time you get to them 13:53:51 and if they are, that's a lesson that you should be leveling up more d: 13:53:51 Basically to me Crawl seems aimed at being different than the standard of other rogue-likes where you have to repeatedly go places and die just to learn enough to advance (or look up the spoily info). 13:54:12 Twinge_: those are two different things 13:54:14 angband! :) 13:54:34 crawl is trying to avoid being the kind of roguelike where you can go somewhere and die and have no idea what you did wrong 13:54:55 Agreed 13:55:16 death as a valuable lesson is completely valid 13:55:23 Hmm 13:56:58 The new Ctrl+O screen lists the branch depths, as I think does 'x'amining the branch stairs (maybe hallucinating that one). 13:57:10 Branch descriptions include depth, yes 13:57:14 ?/b 13:57:46 Not that you'd expect the new player to apply that information and infer things, but the first time they see 10 boss naga around the stairs on Snake:5, they'll get the message :) 13:58:09 Kesk: That was my next question, hehe. 13:58:12 and once they see themselves surrounded by vault guards, they'll start to pick up on the pattern 13:58:15 (: 13:58:35 TGWi: I've only discovered about the ?/ command last week or something.. 13:58:37 I loved my first Vault:8 visit 13:58:41 I didn't know about the vault guards 13:58:41 keskitalo: lol 13:58:55 does the tutorial include a plug for ?/? 13:59:02 And if I'd had the game telling me to be very afraid, I wouldn't have been as thrilled 13:59:03 because ?/ is a really awesome feature 14:00:30 does anyone have an opinion on worm experience? it's currently 12, which seems way too high for a d:1 monster 14:00:38 Fair enough, I suppose. Just came to mind suddenly after reading some of the other attempts to reduce spoiler requirements 14:00:40 worms hit pretty hard 14:00:59 @??worm 14:00:59 worm (04w) | Speed: 6 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 1/5 | Damage: 12 | Res: 06magic(13) | XP: 12. 14:01:09 Speed 6 is really slow, but they have high HP and pack a big punch for that early 14:01:11 12 damage is pretty high for a d:1 monster 14:01:20 I was thinking dropping 12->9 XP or so 14:01:21 and yeah, 15-40 hp is a lot 14:02:12 doy - you can check over the rest of the 2nd pass list too if you'd like - http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:monster:experience 14:03:01 TGWi: I don't think it does. 14:04:11 Is fixing miscellaneous items on the 0.7 roadmap? 14:04:22 I think the notes viewer should be moved to ^; 14:04:44 ?: is kind of unintuitive 14:04:49 greensnark: yes 14:04:55 Nice 14:05:01 ^ is awful on Finnish keyboard. =) 14:05:03 TGWi: not really, you make notes with : 14:05:09 I could be not lazy on remap it though. 14:05:11 keskitalo: ctrl ; I mean 14:05:26 Ah, I see. 14:05:27 doy: right, which is why ctrl : should reach them 14:05:34 it's currently in *the help menu* 14:05:51 TGWi: also, ; isn't a valid control character 14:05:54 which is not where I'd expect to find my milestones 14:06:11 oh, psh 14:07:28 Is there a 0.7 features page on the wiki? 14:07:49 greensnark: not yet, someone really should make one 14:08:11 What's the naming convention for that sort of page :) 14:08:18 shrug! 14:08:27 I find the namespaces in the cdo wiki pretty confusing 14:08:53 we probably want another namespace for planning 14:09:02 dcss:planning:0.6, dcss:planning:0.7 14:09:05 or something 14:09:12 but i don't really know 14:09:24 eronarn is the one who designed the whole namespace structure 14:09:34 Yeah, sounds sensible. The 0.6 testing and polish page is directly in the dcss namespace. 14:09:34 Eronarn: thoughts? 14:10:32 Is there a chart of the current trunk weapon stats anywhere? 14:10:49 itemprop.cc has the numbers 14:10:57 And it's not likely to be out of date :) 14:11:11 @?? should accept item names 14:11:11 unknown monster: "should accept item names" 14:11:28 doy: we can add new stuff to the namespaces, it's fine by me 14:11:29 Yeah, that would be neat 14:11:35 there is some stuff that has remained uncategorized 14:11:44 and just gotten left all over the place 14:11:46 Eronarn: Ok, I think I'll create a planning namespace! 14:12:00 a while back, i moved the tiles stuff to a tiles: namespace because someone pointed out i hadn't made one 14:12:13 but there are still some planning/testing/etc. stuff that don't have a namespace yet 14:12:52 by the way, do you know about the template pages? 14:13:42 I saw templates in action, but I have no idea how to create a new one :P 14:13:46 Or modify an existing one :P 14:15:35 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:template 14:16:10 hmm 14:16:11 any page "template" will be used as a template for all subnamespaces, unless the subnamespace has a page called "template", which will override 14:16:18 orb of destruction + autopickup of chunks = annoying 14:16:25 er, for that namespace and all subnamespaces, not just for subnamespaces 14:16:58 compare to: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:template 14:17:12 cbus: s/annoying/useful/ 14:19:49 usually annoying 14:20:12 it's true, my only experience with it is via disintegration 14:20:12 (: 14:20:25 :) 14:20:34 but if its your primary attack spell it gets annoying trust me:) 14:20:47 I'd also like the game to only autopickup one chunk 14:21:14 syllogism: meh, that's something that should be configurable on it's own 14:21:18 yes 14:21:22 default should be to pick up everything 14:21:32 i think there might be something you can do with lua for that 14:21:35 but not sure 14:22:01 i know autopickup is at least somewhat hookable through lua 14:22:27 i don't know if it's hookable to the point of being able to pick up partial stacks, but maybe 14:27:58 greensnark: thanks for CDO stats. I love stats! 14:28:30 dpeg: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:0.7_features 14:28:32 Fill that up :) 14:28:38 Hiya dpeg! 14:29:18 The server stats graphs should include axes markers for the various crawl releases and tournaments 14:29:23 i thought new skill training for armour/etc was for 0.6? 14:29:32 doy: No, punted 14:29:37 There's a stopgap in place 14:29:37 doy: thanks for mentioning my 0/+1 idea. I still think is has merits. 14:29:38 /: 14:29:42 ah 14:29:46 what kind of stopgap? 14:30:05 Described in 2b02a1eb64ee 14:30:45 We've just removed the heavy/light checks and added armour mass checks for dodging 14:30:48 okay 14:31:10 the main thing was being unable to train armour in light armour, and unable to train dodging in heavy 14:31:23 Yes, both will work now 14:31:28 good 14:31:31 a typical b0rsuk reply on the speed randomization page :P 14:31:40 ooh 14:33:10 hmmm, i don't think that idea is necessarily without merit 14:33:19 it's certainly not as clear-cut as he makes it out to be 14:33:34 We could certainly consider increasing starting hp across the board 14:33:51 But that is an amusing rant :P 14:33:55 (: 14:34:03 Very stream-of-consciousness 14:34:08 "increasing starting hp" wouldn't be nearly enough though 14:34:31 !lg . killer=jackal 14:34:32 10. greensnark the Ducker (L1 DETm), slain by a jackal on D:1 on 2009-10-17, with 27 points after 843 turns and 0:14:36. 14:34:36 unless you also increased d:1 difficulty 14:34:38 greensnark: well, I have a private list with (potential) 0.7 targets, but I keep that private because otherwise hilarity ensues. Again. 14:34:41 !deathsby 14:34:42 435 games for greensnark: 40x a hobgoblin, 30x a kobold, 22x an orc wizard, 21x pois, 16x an orc priest, 16x winning, 16x a centaur, 13x a gnoll, 13x an ogre, 13x a snake, 12x an orc, 10x a jackal, 10x a goblin, 9x a giant cockroach, 9x a giant gecko, 9x Jessica, 8x Sigmund, 7x quitting, 6x a giant bat, 6x an orc warrior, 5x a giant ant, 5x a hill giant, 5x a hound, 4x a troll, 4x a player ghost, ... 14:34:51 which comes with its own issues 14:34:52 I don't know why players are so worried by jackals 14:35:04 They're so much easier than hobgoblins :P 14:35:06 !lg * s=killer 14:35:13 523711 games for *: 208016x , 32515x a hobgoblin, 27979x a kobold, 17546x a gnoll, 14499x Sigmund, 13794x an orc wizard, 13521x an ogre, 12326x an orc priest, 12070x a snake, 11743x a goblin, 11576x an orc, 9014x a giant gecko, 8632x a centaur, 8369x an orc warrior, 7976x a jackal, 5577x a worm, 5143x Jessica, 4989x a giant bat, 4574x a giant ant, 4218x Ijyb, 4214x a giant cockroach, 3888x a rat, ... 14:35:34 dpeg: Post it! 14:35:45 how do worms have so many kills :P 14:35:47 I want to remove all the "Postponed" clutter from the 0.6 testing page 14:35:53 also, his comment about "d:1 is artificially made suck" isn't even true, d:1 monsters have artifically fewer hp 14:37:46 I think I've died to a worm once or twice :/ 14:37:49 !lg . killer=worm 14:37:50 1. greensnark the Ducker (L2 HaMo), slain by a worm on D:2 on 2008-07-24, with 108 points after 1565 turns and 0:08:26. 14:37:57 In my defence, I was running from a D:1 centaur :P 14:37:57 !lg s=killer 14:37:59 761 games for doy: 80x , 70x a hobgoblin, 61x a kobold, 40x an orc wizard, 34x an orc priest, 31x a gnoll, 31x an orc, 29x a snake, 27x a giant gecko, 26x an ogre, 25x Sigmund, 21x an orc warrior, 21x a goblin, 20x a jackal, 17x a giant bat, 14x a centaur, 10x an ooze, 9x Ijyb, 9x a giant ant, 9x Terence, 9x a rat, 9x a hound, 8x a giant cockroach, 8x a killer bee, 7x a worm, 6x a giant iguana, 5x... 14:38:27 Why does borsuk still think that one test explains a trend? 14:38:28 Hmm, Scythe has more Str weighting than Halberd? That seems backwards. 14:38:41 I like to think my worm deaths were suicides after not getting the DS mutation I wanted :P 14:39:03 dpeg: Just b0rsuk angst; I'm guessing he just wanted Andy Murray to win the australian and is pissed that he didn't :P 14:39:22 federer woo 14:41:11 !lg killer=worm 14:41:12 6. Stabwound the Digger (L3 OMEE), slain by a worm on D:3 on 2007-09-25, with 122 points after 1790 turns and 0:08:14. 14:41:24 hmm :P 14:41:30 !lg killer=worm 1 14:41:30 1. Stabwound the Firebug (L2 DEFE), slain by a worm on D:2 on 2006-12-29, with 79 points after 624 turns and 0:05:11. 14:41:41 !lg killer=worm 14:41:41 7. doy the Skirmisher (L2 GnCr), slain by a worm on D:2 on 2008-08-29, with 47 points after 1156 turns and 0:01:51. 14:41:44 !lg killer=worm s=char 14:41:45 5 games for jarpiain (killer=worm): 2xSpWr, 1xHEPa, 1xHEWr, 1xDrTm 14:41:49 speedrun yay 14:41:59 !log killer=worm 14:42:11 apparently I can't remember the commands anymore 14:42:12 syllogism: worms have so many kills because nobody cares enough until worms stop being a threat 14:42:19 stabwound: just takes a while 14:42:21 6. Stabwound, XL3 OMEE, T:1790: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Stabwound/morgue-Stabwound-20070925-023247.txt 14:42:25 The bug reporting page on Mantis looks great now! 14:42:32 ahh 14:42:38 !lg * cv=0.6 14:42:38 No games for * (cv=0.6). 14:42:50 how do I do that now? Or can't I yet? 14:42:59 that should have worked 14:43:08 !lg * cv>0.5 14:43:09 it'd be interesting to see stats for how causes of death change as a person plays longer 14:43:11 31146. ajhager the Shooter (L4 NaAM), slain by an iguana on D:5 on 2010-01-31, with 374 points after 3195 turns and 0:18:35. 14:43:12 !lg * cv=0.6-a 14:43:13 17746. ajhager the Shooter (L4 NaAM), slain by an iguana on D:5 on 2010-01-31, with 374 points after 3195 turns and 0:18:35. 14:43:30 Alpha versions are flagged with -a now 14:43:31 greensnark: have a look at the planning page, sit down please 14:43:41 Keskitalo: tell Napkin! 14:43:51 He gets lots of flak and little encouragement. 14:44:11 !log * place=d:1 killer=~oklob 14:44:11 3. Zeor, XL2 DrCK, T:883: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Zeor/morgue-Zeor-20100128-023708.txt 14:44:16 greensnark: and that's not all.... 14:44:27 dpeg: Nice 14:44:36 doy: X% of players' nth non-scummed games end with death to Y? 14:44:41 dpeg: But some items need a short description 14:44:44 dpeg: I shall! 14:44:49 that would be interesting as hell 14:44:52 Like branches - Pan could use a short note on what's planned 14:45:00 greensnark: monster demonspawn! 14:45:07 Really? :) 14:45:26 that's the only pan overhaul i've heard of anyway 14:45:27 (: 14:45:36 Darth Maul in Pan :P 14:45:53 He will be killing Jar Jar, and if you stop him, you go to the Dark Side immediately 14:45:54 greensnark: yes, will come later. No time right now, and I got sort of mobbed into pouring my private 0.7 agenda into public space 14:46:04 dpeg: Thanks for the update :) 14:46:19 I don't know what I hate more: D&D or Star Wars. Hm, or pirates. 14:46:22 Why is jpeg raining on our March 1 plans :P 14:46:24 dpeg: next they will be demanding turtles, or something crazy like that 14:46:43 greensnark: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2113480&group_id=143991&atid=757516 14:47:24 there's a zin design available? 14:47:34 poor zin 14:47:37 always being redesigned 14:48:02 TGWi: yes. It is private. 14:48:15 also, haha, 'gate to pan' used to be a ds mutation, i remember that 14:48:21 who came up with these things 14:48:22 ...huh 14:48:34 syllogism: Yes, Zin is my Achilles heel as a god designer. Anyone can point on me and justly say: You suck! 14:48:35 it wasn't quite as useless as it seemed :P 14:48:49 it made gates out more frequent 14:48:52 something like 1/7 14:49:03 syllogism: even more ridiculous! 14:49:16 also 4.1 improved it :P 14:49:21 I forgot how, let me see 14:49:27 "monster vs player speed synchronisation" <3 14:50:24 "You can travel from one level of Pandemonium to another, with difficulty." 14:50:26 amazing :P 14:50:28 syllogism: zin is probably pretty rich, actually 14:50:34 heh 14:50:59 Hey, the money part of Zin is something that I consider working well. 14:51:16 Gameplay-wise. And hypocrisy among religions is nothing unheard of. 14:51:44 I wonder if you can put on an amulet of faith, donate money, take it off and still get 1/3 more piety 14:52:13 syllogism: interesting thought. 14:52:51 syllogism: i already made a comment to this effect on the amulet page, it applies to any god where you can get a lot of piety in one go 14:53:02 Eronarn: not really 14:53:12 you'll usually lose the piety when you take it off 14:53:33 03j-p-e-g * r24cef5c20df1 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-transit.cc: Re-add the -5 to follower::place() monster loop. 14:54:32 greensnark: what's your opinion on using 0/+1 only in the monster energy randomisation? 14:55:24 Can't be done without some compensation to reduce the need for pillar dancing 14:55:40 agreed 14:55:47 I don't play the strongest combos, and I routinely use pillar dancing 14:55:58 The -1/0/1 thing made pillar dancing and generally losing monsters much easier 14:56:00 it's okay currently because it makes pillar dancing not guaranteed, but still not impossible 14:56:00 greensnark: you use pillar dancing? 14:56:05 I never do. 14:56:07 I do 14:56:11 !gamesby dpeg 14:56:12 dpeg has played 867 games, between and 20100131, won 10 (1.2%), high score 1917857, total score 21624414, total turns 8313429, total time 793:44:29. 14:56:17 !gamesby greesnark 14:56:17 No games for greesnark. 14:56:19 !gamesby greensnark 14:56:20 greensnark has played 435 games, between 20061213 and 20100114, won 16 (3.7%), high score 2715778, total score 29223268, total turns 7111954, total time 990:52:47. 14:56:51 Some of my weaker characters use pillar dancing even as deep as D:8 and D:9 14:56:57 if I get surprised by a troll, say 14:57:08 Yep, definitely 14:57:18 even in lair if a hydra ambushes me 14:57:18 So flat eliminating it will just push the weaker character types into unviability 14:57:46 yes 14:58:29 not really sure what can be done to fix that though 14:58:33 and if you have to pillar dance early on, it usually takes like 50+ turns to recharge health 14:58:37 nothing for 0.6 14:58:40 needs thought 14:58:42 well, sure 14:58:48 We should definitely fix it if possible at some point 14:58:51 i think the current state is fine for 0.6 14:58:54 Nobody enjoys pillar dancing :) 14:58:59 But I consider pillar dancing to be really aggravating. 14:59:04 doy: alright! 14:59:17 i consider pillar dancing bad, but further nerfing of weak combos worse 14:59:17 I like the general feel of the weaker combos much better than the stronger combos, but pillar dancing is the tax I must pay to play them :P 14:59:24 greensnark: but you agree that we have combos which are meant to suffer? 14:59:49 dpeg: I think almost all combos are very amenable to player skill 14:59:54 iow, there are combos which might fall under the feasibility threshold once we axe pilalr dancing. 15:00:12 If we just axe pillar dancing, the only combos left will be the strong combos 15:00:18 The ones with the terribly boring early games :P 15:00:34 The combos that force me to use pillar dancing are also the most fun combos in the early game 15:00:38 I would say almost every melee-oriented character of the weaker races will be next to impossible 15:00:39 that's more than a little exaggerated 15:00:46 well, i mean, really, we still have a pretty large number of unwon combos, even after like 3 years of server play 15:00:59 not because they are that hard 15:01:01 but that's because there's so many 15:01:06 doy: most of the ones left are the ones that nobody wants to play 15:01:09 so that "feasibility threshold" already exists 15:01:12 most people just don't care 15:01:15 and n7 is picking those off anyway 15:01:26 stabwound: i think nearly impossible might be exaggerating, but it'll require a much, much more cautious playstyle. like picking up daggers/clubs and shit 15:01:35 people already do that 15:01:37 for example, could increasing Healing and Heal Wounds rates suffice to avoid pillar dancing? 15:01:45 I mean, how often do perverts like you do itß 15:01:46 sometimes you just can't do anything besides pillar dance 15:01:53 dpeg: not really 15:01:56 syllogism: yes 15:02:08 dpeg: It would if generated in sufficient quantity, but that obviously affects balance in other directions :) 15:02:09 dpeg: well, pillar dancing is free 15:02:10 dpeg: you do so much pillar dancing / running in the course of any game 15:02:14 doy: well, finding five HW per level would surely do the trick. 15:02:22 it would take a mechanical change, or -- yeah that 15:02:26 but don't do that :P 15:02:31 dpeg: at the cost of making combos that don't need pillar dancing quite a bit easier 15:02:34 I don't tend to pillar dance more than once or twice per game, doesn't take very long 15:02:37 doy: I know that. 15:02:41 this is like DD all over again 15:02:47 but I play good combos 15:02:47 We should take our cue from the good players. 15:02:52 can we please not nerf weak combos into oblivion to slightly negatively affect strong combos 15:02:55 * greensnark proposes auto-pillar-dancing. 15:02:56 dpeg: hint taken 15:03:04 :P 15:03:25 i mean, the other aspect to keep in mind is that making actually running away harder isn't really a decent goal either 15:03:38 running away is an important part of the game 15:03:40 greensnark: do you remember the glorious times on rgrm when people would propose pillar dancing macros? "Hey, this is teh shit: itz so easy!" 15:03:54 doy: shafts! 15:03:57 I use them. 15:04:09 I was paraphrasing one of the many proposals for pillar dancing automation :) 15:04:14 dpeg: true enough, but that's a pretty last-ditch sort of thing 15:04:22 two dlvls is a pretty harsh penalty 15:04:28 and they don't show up on branch ends 15:04:35 and there aren't that many of them on a level 15:04:38 Eronarn: well, they do, but it's a bug 15:04:39 (: 15:04:44 eronarn: nobody has ever pillar danced in a branch end 15:04:56 also, this change affects tactical positioning as wel 15:05:30 I haven't pillar danced in branch ends, but I have frequently played hide-and-seek in the Vault:8 honeycomb area <3 15:05:44 To those who do dance with pillars: when you say you need compensation -- what could it be? Apart from more HP (either innate or in potion form), there's not much I can see. 15:05:48 Having 10 hp and dodging around to lose the shadow dragon in the honeycomb <3 15:06:06 greensnark: that's what i mean by the distinction between "running away" and "pillar dancing" 15:06:09 (: 15:06:31 oh man, I didn't even think of losing the vault/comb run-around tactic 15:06:36 dpeg: how about we wait on nerfing pillar dancing until we actually have a reasonable proposal to compensate for it 15:06:39 I have to do that like every game 15:06:39 dpeg: The fundamental issue is that I like having a decent threat level. If I have too many healing potions or vastly faster regen, I won't pillar dance, but the game becomes too easy for my taste 15:06:46 rather than nerf first, try to fix the repercussions of the nerf (much) later 15:07:11 dpeg: That's a tough call. As said above, pillar dancing is free, and I can't think of much that could replace it. On the other hand, I also don't consider it a big deal or problem; you don't *need* to dance all game long or anything, so it's really on the veyr low end of scummy tactics 15:07:11 Eronarn: you don't understand me at all. I asking what a possible compensation could look like in principle. There isn't much, it seems. 15:07:19 maybe monsters could eventually stop trying to chase you 15:07:23 and just start shouting 15:07:28 Twinge_: not valid reasoning in my book 15:07:34 Actually this energy change completely fixes pillar dancing :P 15:07:34 dpeg: i understand what your'e asking, i'm saying that i don't have any ideas and i am not sure there *are* any ideas so we shouldn't make this change until we have some 15:07:37 TGWi: this is worse 15:07:57 Eronarn: what is wrong with you? I don't propose any change here. 15:07:58 I think it may make the game too easy, but I need to play through the early game a bit more 15:08:07 dpeg: i mean the change to speed 15:08:12 er, energy rather 15:08:20 We already agreed that nothing will happen for 0.6. 15:08:39 dpeg: I don't think it's that much worse 15:08:45 you mean the energy change will be reverted? 15:08:46 Eronarn: as greensnark keeps pointing out, it's not even clear that this is a nerf 15:08:46 or, worse at all* 15:09:05 either the shouting ruins your dance, or you can just leave the level 15:09:42 doy: Yeah it depends on a lot of stuff - can be easier or harder. And I think I saw some changes from by that made it less likely for something to come on screen and get a free insta-attack, which was my biggest concern 15:09:43 Give monsters a stamina counter :P 15:10:25 by's change on the speed branch makes it impossible for a sleeping monster to wake and act on the first turn after it comes into view 15:10:30 If it's normal speed 15:10:33 doy: i would classify it as one simply because of the increased variability, even if the easier gain cancels out the easier loss 15:10:56 greensnark: I don't like that change, but I do like making it so awake speed 10 monsters wont get to act twice when they notice you 15:11:07 you only need one double-crystal-spear to end your game 15:11:11 syllogism: Actually, I'm fine with by's change :) 15:11:12 i really really dislike arguments that basically go "increased variability is automatically bad" 15:11:33 greensnark: but then Erolcha can't instantly abyss you :P 15:11:39 doy: But isn't it? ;) 15:11:41 syllogism: What if she's already awake :P 15:11:45 Twinge_: no 15:12:02 Let me look at the change again 15:12:20 it's not automatically 'bad', but it decreases predictability, which is a nerf 15:12:35 it's ok to nerf things, but it is definitely a nerf 15:13:57 syllogism: no, it will stay as it is now, I think 15:14:12 Ah, monsters pay a tax of 4 energy every time they switch to BEH_SEEK 15:14:25 I think that should fix most cases of Louise and Erolcha coming into view and instabanishing the player 15:14:37 Which is fine by me :) 15:14:37 I don't think that should be "fixed" 15:14:43 green: Cool. 15:14:46 -!- Twinge_ is now known as Twinge 15:14:51 I've had that happen before while autoexploring 15:14:53 Well, it happens very rarely 15:14:58 Typical opinion matter. 15:15:05 stabwound: this is my point 15:15:09 this isn't a new thing 15:15:10 syllogism: why's that? 15:15:26 always letting the player act first is bad 15:15:28 I had other concerns with the change, but the good mostly seems to balance with the bad if that's not made mroe common 15:15:28 Twinge: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 15:15:36 syllogism: ah 15:15:45 i agree with syllogism, really 15:15:46 That's a fair point 15:15:53 true 15:16:11 well, doesn't it depend on stealth? 15:16:18 not with that change 15:16:20 Or at least, that's how I imagine it to be. 15:16:22 it's less "the player has to act first" than "the player should be able to act at all" 15:16:28 syllogism: oh, I see where you are coming from. 15:16:29 dpeg: the change is in branch right now 15:16:31 one is symmetry, the other is stupid 15:16:33 dpeg: It currently does in master, but the proposed change would prevent it 15:16:43 -!- TGWi was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [Use of "stupid".] 15:16:56 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:17:02 TGWi: time is discrete 15:17:06 someone has to act first 15:17:10 if it's always the player, that's bad 15:17:26 you very, very rarely get instakilled due to the monster acting first 15:17:29 I think that's a good point 15:17:46 So we shouldn't be penalising monsters for going into seek mode 15:17:58 -!- TGWi was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [Use of "stupid". However, no matter how unstealthy you are, I am not sure if monsters should act twice without the player doing anything.] 15:18:03 sorry 15:18:07 heh 15:18:09 However, no matter how unstealthy you are, I am not sure if monsters should act twice without the player doing anything. 15:18:11 Up arrow fail :P 15:18:20 !tell TGWi The second was an educational typo. 15:18:20 dpeg: OK, I'll let TGWi know. 15:18:27 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:31 you could drop their energy back to default 15:18:52 Okay, here is my opinion: it is okay that monsters act first. This should depend on stealth -- if you are very stealthy, it is okay if _you_ (almost) always act first. 15:18:57 syllogism: not sure that would help? 15:19:08 dpeg: :[ 15:19:08 TGWi: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 15:19:08 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:12 !messages 15:19:12 (1/1) dpeg said (52s ago): The second was an educational typo. 15:19:16 doy: Setting monster energy to default when they come into view would fix double actions, yes 15:19:16 sorry 15:19:20 s'okay 15:19:30 But only when they come into view 15:19:41 greensnark: would they be able to act first though? 15:19:44 Or when they activate BEH_SEEK, I guess 15:19:45 TGWi: "stupid" never helps. It shares this property with "dumb" and "sucks". 15:19:48 ((dpeg: Mmm, Race for the Galaxy is good, especially with the first expansion, though I haven't played it for a while; guess Dominion has taken over. Dungoen Lords is also very good, though I heard it was pretty awkward with only 3 players.)) 15:19:54 doy: Yes 15:19:58 okay 15:20:08 greensnark: if you see a way to achieve that, please go ahead. 15:20:14 At least jot it down. 15:20:24 hmmm 15:20:31 Hm, nothing to stop it getting 11 energy for its first turn in view 15:20:35 Twinge_: agreed. The third RotG extension is too much, otherwise a mighty fine game for two players. 15:20:49 doy: same to you. Or syllogism. :) 15:20:49 giving a chance of an energy cost for entering BEH_SEEK depending on a stealth roll could make sense 15:20:52 So that wouldn't work after all 15:21:06 doy: as long as someone has to act first, I don't see why not the player 15:21:20 TGWi: not good. 15:21:21 maybe erolcha doesn't like getting instabanished either, but hey, she's not real 15:21:22 TGWi: i don't see why the player 15:21:24 TGWi: The player acting first is fine, as long as they don't get to act first 100% of the time :) 15:21:29 right 15:21:41 And stealth making a difference seems natural and good. 15:21:53 I suppose this is an unpopular opinion 15:21:53 Well, stealth already makes a difference 15:22:05 They may not notice you 15:22:09 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:22:12 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 15:22:26 We're talking about the case where the player has just blown their stealth roll atomically 15:22:39 TGWi: this opinion is effectively "players don't like dying, so we should keep players from dying" 15:23:24 Actually, what am I saying, syllogism's suggestion will work after all :P 15:23:37 That's good. 15:23:47 Should we propose it somewhere or go for the throatß 15:23:50 Erolcha comes into view, gets her energy pegged to 70. If she gets 10 energy, she acts once, taking energy back to 70. If she gets 11, she acts once, taking energy back to 71 15:23:55 Damn sz. 15:23:56 Let's nerf Banishment to require two hits! 15:24:13 Keskitalo: no! 15:24:20 I like dpeg's stylish periodsß 15:24:37 Oh, the burdens of being a German. 15:24:44 dpeg: Ok. :) 15:25:03 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:25:21 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:26:12 dpeg: I haven't even had a chance to try the 2nd expansion yet, hehe. Seems like nobody is playing Race anymore with Dominion available, I guess. 15:26:15 I think we should suggest it to by 15:27:32 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:27:55 !tell by syllogism suggested setting monsters' available energy to 70 when they come into view instead of giving them -4 energy when they switch to seek behaviour, so that the player doesn't always get the first action against a monster. 15:27:55 greensnark: OK, I'll let by know. 15:27:56 Twinge_: I never played Dominions. 15:28:04 greensnark: thank you 15:28:20 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:28:24 Hey, I just passed the buck :P 15:28:34 was the choice made to reset energy when things enter los? 15:28:37 because that will cause problems 15:28:41 imagine pillar dancing a centaur 15:28:51 TGWi: no 15:28:56 just when monsters notice you 15:29:02 oh, ok 15:29:21 Yeah, I could have phrased that better 15:31:23 another !tell :) 15:33:12 !tell by To clarify: we're talking about resetting energy to 70 when a monster enters BEH_SEEK instead of docking 4 energy. 15:33:12 greensnark: OK, I'll let by know. 15:33:31 There may be edge cases to worry about 15:33:49 But anyway it's on a branch, no worries 15:34:08 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 15:36:42 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:48 hey, speed randomisation just killed me :[ 15:41:11 !tv TGWi 15:41:12 9465. TGW, XL4 KoWr, T:3387 requested for FooTV. 15:41:45 some combination of that and not paying any attention at all 15:42:01 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:42:37 the latter kills everyone, no need to blame that on the energy 15:43:20 it's true that that death wouldn't have happened without the energy randomization, but at the same time, you did go upstairs while adjacent to an ogre 15:43:50 energy randomisation killed me because I gave it a loaded gun and told it to shoot me 15:43:51 d: 15:44:16 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:44:17 Dowan is waiting for me on the next level :/ 15:44:18 tgwi, in real life it would still be charged with murder :) 15:44:23 exactly 15:44:38 doy: i don't believe in anecdotes, but it can be a bad thing if we rule out all possible cases with "oh, but you made a mistake" :P 15:44:59 Eronarn: well, i don't feel bad pointing it out if it's true d: 15:45:32 doy: yes, but speed randomization will hurt most when people have made mistakes 15:45:47 s/speed randomization/crawl/ 15:46:17 right, but my point is this: it makes it even more likely to die if you make a mistake, and you're already pretty likely to die 15:46:42 eronarn I don't think it's working 15:46:46 this isn't strictly bad, but it doesn't mean that the randomization didn't have an effect, it just means the lethality from the effect is concentrated at certain points in the game 15:46:51 Can we please agree for now that the slight energy randomisation is a good thing? 15:46:57 dpeg: ...no? 15:47:01 yes 15:47:37 i agree that some way of pillar dancing reduction is theoretically a good thing, and that energy randomization may be useful in reducing it 15:47:56 i disagree that the current proposals for it that i've read are better than the status quo 15:47:58 Eronarn: this is a dev channel. All devs agree that the basic idea is a good one. Please stop trying to ignore that. 15:48:45 We get nowhere if we go back to square 1 every time. 15:49:04 square 0.5.2 15:49:19 Eronarn: this implementation of energy randomization doesn't make pillar dancing impossible 15:49:24 just "less completely safe" 15:49:28 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 15:49:44 doy: i'm aware of that, yes 15:50:13 greensnark even pointed out that is solved pillar dancing by making it *easier* 15:50:49 dpeg: this is not necessarily true; it will be easier in some cases, harder in others 15:51:20 which is completely okay 15:51:21 It makes avoiding monsters easier 15:51:21 but because of what 'harder' means, even if it's usually easier, it can still be net harder overall 15:51:26 it makes it easier because if the monster gets an extra turn while following you, it'll use that turn to swing at you, and then almost certainly have to skip a turn next turn, which means you get a gap 15:51:35 which you can use to run for the stairs 15:52:02 * greensnark will be back mid Feb. 15:52:12 greensnark: We need you for 0.6! 15:52:21 Lest we meant March 1 of 2011 :) 15:52:36 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:52:44 greensnark sets a date for the release, and then skips off d: 15:52:56 Oh, I'm going to be back and hold everyone's feet to the fire to get it out :P 15:53:15 But later :) 15:53:23 -!- greensnark has quit [Quit: do widzenia] 15:54:31 doy: and sometimes the extra turn it gets while following you will *kill you*. I'm aware that it will usually make gaining a square of distance easier. But sometimes it will make it harder. No amount of free squares of distance will make up for a lost move when you're about to die. 15:54:50 there are too many variables to say for sure how it will work without lots of testing 15:54:54 You kill the goblin! You have reached level 2! -Things that are here: 15:54:57 but it is a serious consideration IMO 15:55:00 and guess what we're doing? 15:55:01 there's no more forced 15:55:02 testing! 15:55:18 in fact, we'll be testing for the next month! 15:55:23 i'm not against testing it! 15:56:11 what are you against? 15:58:29 TGWi: nothing that has currently been done. but I would be against: making weak combos even weaker compared to strong combos without some kind of other balancing, making tactical movement choices annoying by having to constantly guess whether things will move twice 15:59:04 these depend on the parameters of the randomization, compounded by the dungeon environment 15:59:26 Eronarn: as has been mentioned several times over, nothing more than has currently been done is currently planned 15:59:35 unless testing shows that things are seriously problematic 16:00:17 If a combo subsists on pillar dancing, I'd say something is wrong to begin with 16:00:28 Siber: yes, this is dpeg's point 16:00:39 Siber: sure, but we should address that something before we address pillar dancing, in that case 16:00:55 i don't mind if truly awful combos aren't viable any more 16:00:59 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:01:23 but if combos that just have bad starts but are fine later become too difficult, i would consider this a serious problem 16:01:54 and i would not want to try to balance it by looking at adding more potions, but by either changing the parameters of the randomization globally, or by making specific changes to those combos 16:02:22 Eronarn: yes, i'm pretty sure dpeg wasn't serious about "just adding more potions" 16:02:46 was just a thought experiment to see what kinds of tweaking would affect the necessity of pillar dancing 16:04:12 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:06:38 doy: sure, my initial point though was that i am not sure there *is* any tweaking along those lines if it ends up being problematic for certain combos but not others 16:07:02 wihch would require tweaking those combos, tweaking the parameters, or giving up on those combos - and i am against #3 16:07:09 how about we give it a bit to see if it actually is problematic? 16:07:23 this is a lot of worrying about something that we don't have very much data about yet 16:09:06 doy: yes, exactly (on HW potions) 16:09:32 sure, but the lack of data is why i don't like the idea of seeking consensus that it's a good idea :P 16:09:46 Eronarn: what exactly are you arguing for 16:09:48 I was playing the game today. 16:09:52 i don't understand 16:09:59 do you want something to be changed? 16:10:11 I think said sought consensus is that it's a good idea to try it? 16:10:17 yes 16:10:22 "as far as we can see, it's a good idea" 16:10:28 this is obviously subject to change 16:10:33 that's the entire point of testing 16:10:52 if we were sure it was a good idea, we wouldn't be so insistent on people testing it 16:12:24 doy: i only spoke initially to highlight areas that i would like specifically examined during testing :P we wouldn't have spent so much time discussing this if that had just been met with 'yes, that is a potential problem, we should specifically look into that' 16:16:06 03neunon * r3922b3f5149f 10/crawl-ref/.gitignore: gitignore: ignore MSVC incremental linker files 16:16:10 03neunon * r76f1fa8aa2a9 10/crawl-ref/source/MSVC/ (.gitignore crawl.vcproj crawl.vcproj.user tilegen.vcproj): msvc: fix build problems 16:16:11 03neunon * rdc2340242b6e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (AppHdr.h externs.h): msvc.h: move include to before externs.h to fix warnings 16:16:12 03neunon * r034343cf5b7c 10/crawl-ref/source/msvc.h: msvc.h: add math.h for floor() and ceil() 16:16:13 03neunon * rcccca3b98f73 10/crawl-ref/source/spells4.cc: spells4.cc: fix if statement and indentation 16:16:16 03neunon * rf7fbd82d3758 10/crawl-ref/source/ (5 files): msvc: fix ambiguous calls to sqrt(), log(), etc 16:20:30 03neunon * r77f1f94a24d5 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: makefile: don't include $(DEPS) if $(DEPS) is an empty string 16:21:37 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 16:43:37 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 16:46:15 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:46:26 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:46:44 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 16:49:49 !tell by Hi, I know that this type of work is quite annoying, but could you sort the X-top-line listing? Partial is enough; right now, shafts appear among stairs. 16:49:49 dpeg: OK, I'll let by know. 17:00:50 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 17:01:01 Possible Tiles for showing demon power levels (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=644) by LoginError 17:08:57 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 17:09:05 Evening! 17:09:13 Hallo! 17:09:31 Any opinions on whether to show the Reporter name in the "View Issues" list in Mantis or not? 17:09:37 yes! 17:09:50 i've wanted that for a while, kept forgetting to ask about it 17:10:01 morning 17:14:13 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:14:25 2:0:1 17:14:25 borsuk is picking on me :/ 17:14:35 anyone else an opinion? :> 17:14:48 listing Reporter is fine 17:14:58 3:0:0 then ;) 17:15:04 make that 4 17:15:08 deal! 17:15:13 anyone else? 17:15:17 3... 17:15:19 2... 17:15:21 1... 17:15:23 Done! 17:15:34 Good night, guys :) 17:15:35 o/ 17:15:46 -!- Napkin has left ##crawl-dev 17:17:13 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:26:07 Frozen archway tile submission (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=645) by purge 17:26:21 The tiles are running in like crazy. 17:27:11 (: 17:27:31 have to get them all in within the next month! 17:27:38 long as it doesn't overshadow the console verson... 17:27:54 Textmode: why should it? 17:28:12 I don't see any conflicts between tiles and console. 17:28:12 Textmode: about 80% of the devs play console exclusively 17:28:15 it's not going anywhere 17:28:16 (: 17:28:23 idk, just muttering for muttering's sake, I guess. 17:28:33 ignore me, I haven't had my morning tea :) 17:28:49 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 17:30:08 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:31:08 Minivault & temple entry submissions (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=646) by minmay 17:34:11 heh, i like the nethack one 17:34:12 (: 17:34:18 thats alot of vaults :O 17:34:27 26 temple! 17:35:12 that last one is probably not too acceptable 17:35:13 (: 17:35:29 also, very boxy in general 17:35:30 yeah something about it just isn't right :) 17:35:38 starts with an O 17:35:47 need more non-boxy vaults 17:36:00 Oh, I also have some vaults in my email. 17:36:10 * dpeg feels suddenly very, very sad. 17:36:52 these vaults seem a lot more like 'traps' than interesting vaults, overall 17:36:59 but some of them could probably be usable 17:37:37 I should say: I will look at them. But I already said that about the vaults sitting in my email :) 17:37:53 hehe 17:38:07 However, I will look at them! 17:38:52 have acid pools been suggested? That you can walk through and take damage? Or how about "bottomless pits", a new deep water type that even merfolk can't cross 17:39:02 trying to think of interesting terrain for vaultws 17:39:04 vaults 17:39:18 purge: have been 17:39:27 purge: I am not sure we need so much terrain... 17:39:38 i like acid pools 17:39:46 bottomless pits are kinda meh 17:40:17 doy: they could just be giant shafts :) 17:40:33 like 20 shafts stuck together 17:40:36 shafts that if you stumble onto while confused take you straight to d:27! 17:40:51 :P 17:40:53 I am not convinced about acid pools because they just feel like "the fluid stuff appropriate for Slime", when I think that Slime flavour is (a) plenty and (b) easy to enhance in other ways. 17:40:59 bottomless pits seem kinda unnecessary with deep water and lava and shafts already existing 17:41:15 doy: just adds more variety 17:41:34 more options for vaults 17:41:48 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:41:50 or flavorful branches 17:41:54 purge: variety by itself is not good 17:42:00 bottomless pits wouldn't have goddamn fish in them 17:42:09 portal vaults can do everything (and they actually use the freedom already) 17:42:38 * Siber is thinking a thing like the Summoner's domain in Diablo 2, open area, endless pits, narrow walkable pathways, some flying monsters 17:42:41 adding acid pools to slime (along with acid walls) could be fun 17:42:48 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:43:03 when you walk by the bottomless pit, "suddenly a shadow dragon flies up from deep below!" 17:43:30 Falling would have a chance of either killing you or depositing you on a lower level of the branch, shaft-like 17:43:45 just have immense tentacles reaching out of the pet and along the floor 17:43:48 pit 17:43:58 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 17:45:22 Siber: this is something we don't do 17:45:50 which part? 17:45:53 death traps -> searching for hours 17:46:08 Siber: typo --> falling down the pit --> death 17:46:17 in Crawl, this is a "thoughtless move" 17:46:30 I was thinking more along the lines of levitation running out over it 17:46:40 Not having it more dangerous than being next to deep water. 17:47:08 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:48:07 The pit terrian would in most cases act like lava/deep water, so I assumed having the same player protections would be implicet 17:48:42 if you add acid terrain, then you can add the 'acid rain' spell that can randomly create small pools of acid while it does damage :) 17:50:25 could be a jiyva ability even 17:52:33 dpeg, can you solve a tsumego for me? :D 17:55:38 cbus: which one? 17:57:08 need a link 17:57:10 http://justplaygo.com/images/uploads/problem19.png 17:57:12 black to play 17:58:50 dude, that guy submitted 26 new temples 17:58:52 that's insane 17:58:56 entries* 18:00:49 morning 18:00:56 morning due 18:01:02 * due not here for long 18:01:44 Hi Jude! 18:02:29 dpeg, hows it going? :D 18:03:47 busy! 18:04:08 dpeg, already have like a 2d on crunching it but he seems to be stuck :D 18:04:20 the problem seems to be really tricky or ppl are really tired 18:04:58 cbus: abuse of bent four in the corner, is what I say 18:06:51 Hi folks, is somebody here who could compile early OOD statistics from Gretell output? That would help a lot. 18:07:27 overall, or just recently? 18:08:41 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 18:09:22 doy: since Darshan's OOD change. 18:09:33 -!- Enne has joined ##crawl-dev 18:09:55 Enne! 18:09:55 !lg * place~~d:[1-3] s=-killer 18:09:59 !lg * place~~d:[1-3] s=-killer cv=0.6 18:10:00 Hey, due. :) 18:10:02 !lg * place~~d:[1-3] s=-killer cv=0.6-a 18:10:14 337378 games for * (place~~d:[1-3]): 1x kjkuh's ghost, 1x Aryth's ghost, 1x AlexMax's ghost, 1x a flail, 1x a runed orcish dagger of protection, 1x mrkrrtftt's ghost, 1x Griefy's ghost, 1x bradlby's ghost, 1x Doom716's ghost, 1x QuiteATool's ghost, 1x nobrainer's ghost, 1x Vadatajs's ghost, 1x haveimooed's ghost, 1x reborn's ghost, 1x a yaktaur simulacrum, 1x Braegh's ghost, 1x an ice dragon shape... 18:10:14 No games for * (place~~d:[1-3] cv=0.6). 18:10:14 11238 games for * (place~~d:[1-3] cv=0.6-a): 1x Yavar's ghost, 1x an azure jelly, 1x Menkaure, 1x a stone giant, 1x a queen bee, 1x a redback, 1x an oklob plant, 1x a glaive, 1x a Blue Death, 1x Maud, 1x a bumblebee, 1x a lava worm, 1x Omniguy's ghost, 1x a Balrug, 1x a fire giant, 1x a harpy zombie, 1x a dragon (shapeshifter), 1x a war dog, 1x Pikel, 1x Firo's ghost, 1x a gila monster, 1x a water... 18:10:41 !lg * place~~d:[1-3] s=-killer cv=0.6-a ckiller!=player ghost 18:10:42 11148 games for * (place~~d:[1-3] cv=0.6-a ckiller!=player ghost): 1x an azure jelly, 1x a sheep, 1x an ancient champion, 1x Norris, 1x a small abomination, 1x an iron troll, 1x a red wasp, 1x a sphinx, 1x a Balrug, 1x a fire giant, 1x a harpy zombie, 1x Pikel, 1x a mummy, 1x a water moccasin zombie, 1x a brown ugly thing, 1x a stone giant skeleton, 1x a giant lizard zombie, 1x a giant ant zombie,... 18:10:55 !lg * place~~d:[1-3] s=-killer cv=0.6-a ckiller!=player ghost xl<4 18:10:56 8965 games for * (place~~d:[1-3] cv=0.6-a ckiller!=player ghost xl<4): 1x a green rat, 1x a hellion, 1x a smoke demon, 1x a Blue Death, 1x Duvessa, 1x Crazy Yiuf, the gnoll, 1x an ogre mage, 1x a water moccasin zombie, 1x an Ice Fiend, 1x a skeletal warrior, 1x a sheep, 1x a neqoxec, 1x a hound zombie, 1x an unseen horror, 1x Sigmund, the giant frog, 1x an ice devil, 1x a giant lizard zombie, 1x a... 18:11:51 !log * place~~d:[1-3] killer=ogre mage cv=0.6-a ckiller!=player ghost xl<4 18:11:51 1. meneril, XL2 MuWz, T:5119: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/meneril/morgue-meneril-20100122-101011.txt 18:12:16 !lg * place~~d:[1-3] s=-killer cv=0.6-a ckiller!=player ghost xl<4 race!=mu 18:12:17 8374 games for * (place~~d:[1-3] cv=0.6-a ckiller!=player ghost xl<4 race!=mu): 1x a hound zombie, 1x a wandering mushroom, 1x a wight, 1x a water moccasin zombie, 1x an Ice Fiend, 1x a giant lizard zombie, 1x a sheep, 1x a sixfirhy, 1x a grey rat, 1x Crazy Yiuf, the gnoll, 1x Sigmund, the giant frog, 1x an ice devil, 1x an iron golem, 1x a reaper, 1x an unseen horror, 1x a yak, 1x a soldier ant z... 18:12:32 !log * place~~d:[1-3] killer=ice fiend cv=0.6-a ckiller!=player ghost xl<4 18:12:32 1. Cryptic, XL1 DSCK, T:2: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Cryptic/morgue-Cryptic-20100127-231127.txt 18:12:56 some of these are going to be god wrath from early abandonment 18:12:57 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 18:13:05 most demons, probably 18:13:16 !log * place~~d:[1-3] killer=yak cv=0.6-a ckiller!=player ghost xl<4 18:13:17 1. heteroy, XL3 SpCK, T:5444: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/heteroy/morgue-heteroy-20100125-024935.txt 18:13:18 As well as stuff like two-headed ogres 18:13:51 !tv * place~~d:[1-3] killer=yak cv=0.6-a ckiller!=player ghost xl<4 18:13:51 1. heteroy, XL3 SpCK, T:5444 requested for FooTV. 18:14:37 don't know if there's a good way to get actual stats on that 18:14:50 although could just run the monster generation scripts a few times 18:15:00 Hmm, I wonder if pack spawns should not be applicable for excessive OOD spawns? 1 yak that early is bad enough, let alone 4 ;O 18:15:11 shrug, maybe 18:15:35 the point is to be a threat though 18:15:44 Enne! 18:16:12 Howdy, dpeg. :) 18:16:22 Sure, but most OOD packs I can think of would already be quite a threat alone, e.g. 1 slime creature, 1 yak, etc. 18:16:47 oh hey, somebody organized the .des files! :) 18:16:55 Twinge: this seems to work for centaurs. Early on, you get one centaur. 18:17:01 nrook: you are welcome 18:17:10 dpeg: oh, it was you? thank you! 18:17:10 Enne: are you in touch with Johanna? 18:17:20 She is worried about tiles state for release. 18:17:27 What in particular? 18:18:31 I don't know, to be honest. 18:18:38 Ok. 18:18:53 How close is 0.6? 18:18:57 Phoned with her for two hours yesterday, and she said that there's pressing stuff only you can do. 18:19:00 The only three things I've noted on teh tracker/wiki/list are lack of tiles for some things... 18:19:02 march 1 is the goal 18:19:05 Enne: official deadline is March 1 :) 18:19:16 The water transparency thing, which is a rarghopengl thing, and the slowdown thing, which is likewise/ 18:19:33 Enne: one thing she mentioned was a mouse button to toggle interface/spells. Could that beß 18:19:38 ß = ? 18:19:45 Oh yeah, she did mention that. 18:19:48 dpeg: I find it amusing that you managed to pick the one date that I'll be hiking past waterfalls in New Zealand :) 18:20:23 due: that's great, I've been there, too. Which island? 18:20:30 dpeg: South :) 18:20:38 due: also, I am not sure we should expect release exactly on March 1 :) 18:20:57 * due girn. 18:21:06 I'm looking at the "Tiles issues for 0.6 page", am I right in thinking that the "slow when resting" issue was for both tiles and console? 18:21:17 Slow when rersting is definitely an issue for console 18:21:22 But Rob has been working on this recently 18:21:25 I don't know. I never have these problems. 18:21:29 Part of it had to do with sleping monsters and foes... 18:21:34 And also to do with LOS and haloes. 18:21:35 due: it seems to be sufficiently fast for me recently 18:21:38 A lot of tihs has been culled aand disabled 18:21:38 I'm sad that things are slow, but that makes me feel somewhat better that it's not tiles-specific. 18:21:51 doy: Yes, I have noticed a speed-increase, was just about to say 18:22:16 it's still not as fast as 0.5, but we're doing a lot more each turn, so 18:22:35 At any rate, I'm getting sent across the country in a week or so. I can probably finish the toggle button during plane flight there and back. 18:23:36 Enne: wow :) 18:23:56 Enne: might be best to send her an email. I may have misunderstood something. 18:23:58 I've been pretty busy, but taking a trip means lots of downtime to work on Crawl. :) 18:24:10 Will do. 18:24:14 thank you 18:24:36 Slow resting was an issue in ascii as well too, definitely - but I think it may have already been resolved at least for ascii 18:24:49 This is like me, as long bus trips usually mean I accomplish lots of work. 18:25:01 The msot recent build I played I didn't recall having an annoying high lag time for resting/entering levels like I did before 18:25:24 green said it was an issue with the whole screen constantly refreshing completely each turn or something, IIRC 18:28:29 Hehehe, shop items strike again. 18:28:36 I still find it hilarious that you could apport from shop inventories. 18:36:54 randomised speed just killed me again 18:37:11 due: I closed for good, adding some more words of my own. Was okay? 18:37:26 Sure, will check in a moment 18:37:33 TGWi: this is highly improper feedback. 18:37:47 Enne: Just in case you don't know, slow healing in tiles can be fixed by setting travel_delay to -1 in options. 18:37:59 slow healing while resting* 18:39:31 dpeg: Sounds good! (But I wanted war puppies!) 18:42:07 due: as I see it, there is no special rule needed. New monsters, baby/puppy or not, should require code, not just numbers. 18:42:24 Exactly 18:42:28 Alligators being timid won't make 0.6 18:42:36 But I hope it'll go into 0.7 and provide interesting mechanics: 18:42:51 These baby alligators are snapping at your heels. do you attack tthem, and therefore trigger the attack of the adult aligator? 18:43:15 -!- gal_bolle has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:47 due: for example 18:46:42 -!- due has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:46:48 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 18:46:49 -!- due has quit [Changing host] 18:46:49 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 18:47:14 Grargh. 18:47:36 dpeg: I can look at the vaults tonight, if you'd like. 18:48:04 -!- raydarken1 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:49:10 due: only if you really want to. 18:49:19 -!- Enne has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:49:19 -!- raydarken has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:49:26 I'd be grateful, but I can do that on my own. Just needs time. 18:49:30 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:49:47 Stupid freenode. 18:51:27 Change columns of issue-listing (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=647) by Napkin 18:52:05 speaking of vaults, I have a few to send to whoever's willing 18:52:25 nrook: uploading is best 18:52:38 dpeg: We should maybe change the cdocumentation in 0.6 to point people tothe mantis tracker for bugs in future? 18:53:29 dpeg: alright, will do :) 18:54:02 nrook: You can still email drafts (to me, not sure if anyone else wants them) if you don't want to face the likely criticisms of the general public just yet 18:54:10 * due glares at TGWi. 18:54:13 I never figured out vault etiquette. Do I put my name in the vault name? The description? Nowhere? 18:54:24 oh, most of them are loot vaults, so they'll be very popular :) 18:54:27 I've been pinged 18:54:34 I'm uncertain about this one though: http://pastebin.com/m5a223b02 18:54:42 just in case anyone wanted to know 18:54:45 nrook: Put it in a comment. 18:54:54 due: yes, on documentation 18:55:07 nrook: HAHAHA that's evil, but nice. 18:55:32 Also, w:10 is the default weight for everything 18:55:41 oh, right, forgot to take out the testing weights =/ 18:55:47 That's okay 18:55:50 Now, I'm off 18:55:53 Will be arund later 18:55:56 bye! thank you! 18:56:00 ??shadow demon 18:56:01 I don't have a page labeled shadow_demon in my learndb. 18:56:07 @??shadow demon 18:56:07 shadow demon (063) | Speed: 11 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 7/12 | Damage: 21 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible | Res: 06magic(56), 02cold++, 03poison | XP: 197. 18:56:16 are they invisible? 18:56:21 Yeah. 18:56:25 oh my god what a jerk 18:56:29 <3 18:56:31 :) 18:56:32 <3 too. 18:56:37 -!- Enne has joined ##crawl-dev 18:57:40 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 18:57:40 -!- Zaba has quit [Changing host] 18:57:40 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 18:58:20 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: sleep] 19:01:30 Four vaults (including guardian serpent vaults) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=648) by nrook 19:09:03 03due * rc8bd3c875e90 10/crawl-ref/source/tilepick.cc: Add a check for feat==floor in feature's tile override. 19:12:05 Enne: another bug in tiles is that when you hit 'x' to look around, it does not draw the "highlight" crosshair on your character initially 19:12:17 purge: Can you file that? 19:12:23 ok 19:12:56 shouldn't there be a category for tiles vs. ascii? 19:13:17 ah! product version 19:16:33 Hitting 'x' does not display the highlight crosshair on your player initially (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=649) by purge 19:22:52 is there a way to generate monsters that know where eyou are? 19:23:38 -!- Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 19:31:46 -!- sorear has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:41:39 Your shield and armour prevent you from hitting * (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=650) by fiyawerx 19:49:10 TGWi: For vaults? It's doable. 19:49:32 It would probably be useful for monster specs either way, just for debug purposes. 19:49:53 I'm trying to make a vault that zombifies a corpse 19:50:17 then why does it need to set a foe automatically? 19:50:20 and I don't want it branded, 'cause OCD 19:50:21 It'll do so pretty quickly. 19:50:29 well, it's in glass 19:50:32 Hm. 19:50:42 You realise that corpses cannot be placed in vaults? 19:50:49 yeah 19:50:51 Nor chunks nor skeletons. 19:50:55 Are you using triggerables? 19:51:13 there's a human that dies to supply the corpse 19:51:17 Awesome. 19:51:20 unless it doesn't, hrm 19:51:26 if I can get it to work right 19:51:29 Yeah, no guaranteed corpse. 19:51:32 How are you zombifying the corpse? 19:51:44 You don't need to link it to a corpse, you could just link it to the human dying. 19:51:46 trog_book but making a zombie instead of a flame 19:51:53 Ahh. 19:51:56 if that will work, I haven't tested it yet 19:51:58 Well, good luck 19:52:05 Try reading the triggerable document in the levle design folder 19:52:08 It's pretty unclear 19:52:11 I know nothing about lua, I'm just hacking this together from various vaults 19:52:12 but it's got all the info in it 19:52:22 also, you could probably get some stuff out of the Zonguldrok wizlab 19:52:25 Zaba did something similar to this 19:53:17 * due gone again. 19:53:23 g'day 20:14:57 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:17:14 -!- nrook has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:17:44 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 20:17:45 why can't you place corpses/skeletons? 20:17:53 doy: Design choice. Ask dpeg. 20:18:02 There is no physical code issue stopping it. 20:18:12 It just a) hasn't been done and b) has been said that it won't be done. 20:18:50 i mean, for normal corpses, there's the issue of it rotting away before you find the vault 20:18:55 Yeah. 20:19:06 but if you're just going to zombify it right away 20:19:09 hmmm 20:19:17 guess it still depends on how fast you find it 20:19:17 I think it's slippery-slope syndrome. 20:19:18 shrug 20:19:21 yeah 20:24:30 holy shit, it works 20:24:33 the whole thing 20:24:43 wow 20:24:45 pastebin! 20:25:18 http://crawl.pastebin.com/d4f6a6f72 20:25:33 TGW: That's how I feel about my code if it ever works the first time I try it ;O 20:25:33 I'm guessing there's a more elegant way I could do that, but like wow 20:25:48 well, no, there's no more elegant way I could do that 20:25:54 I'm guessing there's a more elegant way someone else could do that 20:26:25 Ahahahaha, nice. 20:26:33 <3 20:27:05 it's wrong, though 20:27:15 naturally 20:27:17 it's carrion.name() 20:27:20 and carrion.destroy() 20:27:27 the items.blah syntax no longer works 20:27:35 i am amazed you have gotten it to work; are you using an old build of crawl? 20:27:51 yeah 20:28:04 well, not really 20:28:10 g7d59d74 20:28:12 at least a week old? 20:28:22 at least a week new 20:28:27 the items metatable change went in about five days ago 20:33:04 -!- sorear has joined ##crawl-dev 20:35:45 now, is there a way I can make it guarantee a corpse? or look like it does? 20:37:17 sorear: How do you feel about dropping Pikel's exp soe more? you and due were the ones previously against dropping it much, but due has reconsidered after facing him some more. 20:40:32 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:43:07 Twinge: I'm fine with drops *based on testing* 20:43:40 A lot of people look at the stats and kneejerk "that's too much xp" 20:43:53 sorear++ 20:44:08 a lot of people look at the speed changes and kneejerk "that's going to ruin crawl" 20:44:18 pikel's been in for a while, sorear 20:44:42 I think it's consensus that his experience is a pretty big stretch 20:45:14 really, the main issue with pikel is that it's so easy to separate him from his slaves 20:45:19 Pikel is what made me originally start checking based on trunk stats instead of stable stats,a fter I encoutnered him, dispatched him easily, and got like 2 levels ;) 20:45:33 having to fight through them to get to him would make him an actual threat 20:45:37 We can raise the exp back up after the pack AI is tweaked to be tougher probably 20:45:47 But that won't happen before 0.6 20:45:49 yeah 20:46:05 okay, I tried to git-pull and test the most recent build, but I gave up, so I'll just tell you guys: 20:46:09 there's a typo in the evolution description 20:46:21 The 2nd pass of exp tweaks I'm working on is here - http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:monster:experience 20:47:03 (although it seems like it wouldn't be incredibly hard to just reuse the patrolling logic, but i'll admit i don't know much about it) 20:51:56 kikubaaqudgha altar vault (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=651) by TGW 20:52:10 due still here? 20:53:13 pikel is definately NOT easy for a melee character 20:53:35 I've been doing fine, purge 20:53:39 even with crappy kits like wr 20:54:08 wr is anything but crappy 20:54:15 and its random so how can you even compare that 20:54:21 skills and stats 20:54:52 what 20:54:57 if he appears on d:3 or d:4 and you don't have a wand or a lucky weapon find, your probably not going to have an easy time with him 20:55:16 that is not an impressive statement 20:55:19 actually most likely you'll have to come back later 20:55:43 if he appears on d:3-4, if you don't have a wand, if you don't have a weapon 20:55:59 purge: depends on if you can manage to lure him away from his slaves, really 20:56:03 berserk would also work, or might, or haste if you're lucky 20:56:14 then you might have to come back later? is that bad? 20:56:27 no, but i'm saying hes not a pushover 20:56:41 unless your a caster 20:56:57 Not with a mimic in view! (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=652) by OG17 20:57:11 purge: Sure, but he was worth 1050exp originally 20:57:13 @??Pikel 20:57:13 Pikel (02K) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 9 | Res: 06magic(24) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 983. 20:57:15 With thsoe stats 20:57:22 @??big kobold 20:57:22 big kobold (08K) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 7 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 131. 20:57:26 We're thinking around ~650 20:57:27 he is guranteed to have a whip or flaming or pain right? 20:57:30 he hits hard 20:57:32 I'll concede that a fighter with no items might have to come back later 20:57:37 very slightly stronger than a big kobold 20:57:42 650 is still hella much 20:57:46 Exactly 20:58:00 650 is reasonable because of having to fight the slaves 20:58:05 983 is pretty crazy 20:58:06 03neunon * r61b8b84e8622 10/crawl-ref/source/contrib/lua: lua: fix gitignore to hide .cflags and object files 20:58:18 i went from xl5 -> xl8 one time 20:58:41 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 20:59:22 03Enne * r7c933e8fe3a3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files in 3 dirs): [627] Additional slime creature tiles. (Porkchop) 21:00:11 -!- Iainuki_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:06 -!- Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:02:06 -!- Iainuki_ has quit [Changing host] 21:02:06 -!- Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:19:11 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:30:51 http://pastebin.ca/1773951 21:30:56 why's this not working? 21:32:14 probably because you can't access properties of the character in maps 21:32:17 with good reason 21:32:42 characters shouldn't be able to affect anything about dungeon generation 21:33:17 but that altar was going to be awesome! 21:33:30 lugonu offers an item that breaks your conducts 21:34:09 -!- Scrubber has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:39:43 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 21:47:16 -!- Enne has quit [Quit: zzz] 21:52:18 helloooo 21:52:21 I was summon'd? 21:52:34 TGWi: Looking 21:52:43 due: thanks 21:53:00 it's 21:53:03 you.god() == "The Shining One" 21:53:17 oh, so that does work? 21:53:20 Yes 21:53:22 But don't do it 21:53:29 aw 21:53:40 due: that's nasty, don't do that 21:53:54 due: why is 'you' available at all? 21:54:01 what would valid uses of it be? 21:56:15 doy: Thousands. 21:56:32 It's available because there are a lot of uses that can be foreseen. 21:56:54 There are also a lot of bad uses that can be foreseen, but are weeded out simply by not accepting those maps. 21:57:03 you.absdepth seems pretty useful 21:57:09 you.absdepth() is useful 21:57:17 you.gold is used for portal vaults that are tolled 21:57:26 tonnes of you.blah information is used in portal vaults 21:57:26 TGWi: well, ideally that would be available from the dungeon object, rather than getting it from the player 21:57:34 Argh, why? 21:57:42 why would you.gold be used? 21:57:46 ... 21:57:48 Ziggurats? 21:57:50 Troves? 21:58:00 oh, you mean to do the actual deductions 21:58:01 right 21:58:03 Troves will also be accessing the player's inventory. 21:58:11 really? 21:58:14 Yes 21:58:29 For item sacrifice purposes 21:58:41 It checks your inventory, onn the ground in front of you, and on the ground in front of the trove for the item that it wants. 21:58:44 Anyway 21:59:00 Putting all of this in the dungeon library is possible, but why bother? It's easier to just make the you library accessible to maps. 21:59:07 yeah, okay 21:59:37 The gambit portal vault (0.7 target) has Nemelex giving you cheating hints if you worship him and your piety is quite high 22:00:05 abraham's wossname protected item vault has a did_god_conduct wrapper (or will, one day) when you take TSO's protected item. 22:00:42 TGWi: That still won't work, as you can't specify egos for random weapons, I believe. 22:00:45 Maybe you can now, unsure. 22:00:45 i guess the distinction here is normal vaults vs portal vaults 22:00:53 due: oh, right 22:00:56 that is very annoying 22:01:26 TGWi: also, you shouldn't have the item just for TSO worshippers, you should have the item for any worshipper, if you're going to do that. 22:01:39 due: there was going to be more 22:01:41 doy: It also has all the shopping list stuff 22:01:47 doy: Player's LOS and ability to see things 22:01:57 okawarites would get summoning items, etc 22:02:02 doy: Random teleport wrappers, movement wrappers, player's location wrapper, information about whether or not the player is silenced. 22:02:31 TGWi: Ask dpeg about it first, I think. 22:02:34 I think we've established that I'm not allowed to do it anyway :[ 22:02:39 Well 22:02:42 I'm unsure myself. 22:03:17 anyway, my point was just that i don't think that anything in the player's control should be able to affect dungeon generation 22:03:23 outside of things like portal vaults 22:03:24 doy: It doesn't. 22:03:32 due: TGWi's map would though 22:03:45 Hm 22:03:53 I think the idea is that you get a good item but it's always something that's useless to you. 22:04:02 You still have to get the actual map 22:04:04 yeah 22:04:11 Nothing you can do can influence whether or not you get the map. 22:04:42 And so long as the loot is equal for all possible permutations (but always useless for your current god), I see nothing seriously wrong with it. 22:05:10 The item wouldn't change if you changed gods, either. 22:05:19 meh, still seems like a potential slippery slope to me 22:05:22 shrug 22:05:31 I don't think I could make the loot equal 22:05:43 because some gods have stronger conducts, and some gods don't have conducts at all 22:05:49 Most gods do, though. 22:06:13 Potions of speed for Cheibriados worshipers, necromancy books for Fedhas worshipers... 22:06:20 what would you do for lugonu worshippers? 22:06:27 Ask dpeg, though. I could be completely wrong here, but I like the idea. 22:06:33 doy: distortion branded knife! 22:06:34 for gods without conducts I was thinking of just disappearing the altar 22:06:42 but that's not ideal 22:06:59 or, for lugonu worshippers I could surround it with other altar 22:06:59 s 22:07:01 It's not a bad idea, you just hav eto fully flesh it out for every permutation. 22:12:31 !lg stathol 22:12:31 479. Stathol the Sorcerer (L24 DECj), worshipper of Vehumet, shot themselves with a orb of destruction on Crypt:5 on 2010-02-01, with 426918 points after 147788 turns and 10:58:26. 22:12:53 What do we think about monsters reflecting orbs of destruction? 22:12:59 hmmm 22:13:20 i'm conflicted 22:13:22 does the orb actually turn around? 22:13:28 it doesn't *really* fit 22:13:34 but it sounds like an awesome idea 22:13:37 I don't think something like a puny shield should reflect powerful magic like that. 22:13:49 It is AUTOMATIC_HIT, isn't it? 22:13:53 yes 22:13:59 Yeah, thought so. 22:14:10 Deflect missiles recently got changed to never deflect AUTOMATIC_HIT 22:14:25 So I don't think shields of refelection should deflect it. 22:14:34 i guess/: 22:14:36 (: 22:14:57 Anyway, Stathol got pissed and left the channel over it. 22:15:29 reflection isn't even guaranteed 22:15:43 why would that piss him off so much 22:15:56 gods without conducts: beogh* jiyva* kiku lugonu makhleb nemelex sif veh xom 22:16:18 asterisked have conducts, but irrelevant ones (eating orcs and killing slimes, respectively) 22:17:02 Doesn't Kiku dislike holy wrath? 22:17:07 just yred 22:17:17 oh bah 22:17:24 additionnal information fail 22:17:56 I'm wondering if merely redundant items would foot the bill 22:18:27 that still only covers like half of that list 22:18:31 yeah 22:19:55 maybe lu could give up and throw you some distortion 22:20:04 But something crappy that's distortion. 22:20:47 why? 22:21:08 Because that defeats the purposes of Lugonu's last gift. 22:21:20 distortion club 22:21:23 hm 22:21:37 Cursed distortion club 22:23:08 * due gets back into it. 22:23:18 into what? 22:23:24 ... work? 22:23:28 "earning a living"? 22:24:02 due: do you need different varieties of gravestones 22:24:04 or just one? 22:24:11 purge: i need two; one plain, and one ornate! <3 22:24:27 But if you can't do the latter, just colour it differently, that's fine too. 22:24:46 how would you describe an ornate gravestone? 22:25:25 is there a better way to emulate good_item weapon ego:foo other than making a list of weapons? 22:26:49 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 22:27:53 ??young poisoners handbook 22:27:53 young poisoners handbook[1/1]: Spells: Sting, Cure Poison, Mephitic Cloud, Poison Weapon, Venom Bolt 22:29:37 I forgot to have lunch. 22:29:46 purge: hm, maybe with weird symbols on it? 22:29:47 lunch is unimportant 22:29:51 purge: decoration of some kind? a cross/ 22:30:08 Twinge: time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so. 22:30:37 due: so the plain one should have no "text" on it? 22:30:44 giving a book to trog worshippers makes me feel dirty 22:31:20 hmmm 22:31:21 purge: Yeah 22:31:27 manuals! 22:31:31 TGWi: Manual of spellcasting. 22:31:40 maybe you could have the item be created in a puff of smoke when you get in los of the altar 22:31:49 doy: I could not 22:31:50 that would make me feel better i think 22:31:51 (: 22:31:52 doy: I like that. 22:31:56 but I like that 22:31:58 doy: I was actually thinking something like this. 22:32:06 actually I probably could 22:32:08 TGWi: it's easy, you just use dgn.create-item and apply_area_cloud as before 22:32:46 can troggites burn manuals? 22:32:51 No 22:32:54 hah 22:32:56 i think trog is okay with manuals 22:33:05 since they don't have anything to do with spells 22:34:41 TSOites get venom books or boots of stealth 22:34:46 what should atheists get? 22:34:55 a bitchslap 22:35:05 hrm 22:35:14 altars? 22:35:14 manual of invocations 22:35:17 hahaha 22:35:24 does lu use invocations? 22:35:28 yes 22:35:32 that's perfect 22:37:44 due: what other color besides grays would you want for the ornate stone? 22:37:52 i made the normal one in grays 22:38:14 actually nvm it can still be gray 22:38:36 :) 22:39:02 I need wizlab portal entries too, hm. 22:39:10 I suppose I should just use normal portals. 22:39:30 purge: Can you do an ossuary one, too? 22:39:45 We probably need a special one for Ziggurats, now that I think about it. 22:40:02 And baileys. Troves are fine as-is. 22:41:52 heh 22:59:06 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 22:59:26 -!- Timbermaw has quit [Quit: later!] 23:08:37 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 23:27:34 Long search/rest lags, high CPU usage (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=653) by LoginError 23:29:41 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:37:11 all done due :P 23:37:36 Gravestone tile submissions(normal and ornate) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=654) by purge 23:37:52 lua is stealing my sleep 23:38:38 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev