00:00:33 mara is out of control 00:01:30 yeah, i think mara might be a little extreme 00:02:39 @?? nikola 00:02:39 Nikola (11@) | Speed: 9 | HD: 18 | Health: 190 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Damage: 20 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(120) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 3665 | Sp: shock, chain lightning, blink, b.lightning. 00:14:39 -!- eith has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:16:18 !lg doy x=dam 00:16:18 759. [dam=27] doy the Severer (L18 DrCr), worshipper of Yredelemnul, blasted by an illusion of Mara (bolt of lightning) (woven by Mara) on Vault:3 on 2010-01-28, with 184232 points after 54024 turns and 9:33:40. 00:16:43 the first hit was for ~50 00:16:48 on the first turn 00:16:57 then the second turn i got hit twice for ~25 each 00:42:47 So earlier we mentioned it would be good to rename overmap.cc to dng-overview.cc. Is that something you want me to do? 00:43:01 sure, why not 00:46:38 -!- ogaz has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:53:23 -!- Eronarn has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:31 Helloo 00:53:45 Actually, pain can go. 00:54:34 is there something we can do to make mara less instadeath? 00:54:41 Remove lightning bolt, I suppose. 00:54:52 But 00:54:59 !lg * killer=storm dragon x=dam 00:54:59 194. [dam=38] chukamok the Thaumaturge (L17 DSSt), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by a storm dragon (bolt of lightning) on D:17 on 2010-01-24, with 159698 points after 52147 turns and 11:11:32. 00:55:07 i mean, i don't want to make him easy or anything 00:55:18 It's an inherent problem with lightning bolt, I think 00:55:29 yeah, but storm dragons don't summon 4 copies of themselves that also start throwing lightning bolts at you 00:55:38 True. 00:55:42 Also, two copies. 00:55:47 There's only ever three Mara on screen at once. 00:55:54 I could reduce that to him + 1 clone. 00:56:05 pretty sure i had more than three... 00:56:10 Nope. 00:56:10 !tv 00:56:10 759. doy, XL18 DrCr, T:54024 requested for FooTV. 00:56:12 Not possible. 00:56:29 Coded specifically only to be three of them. :) 00:56:30 maybe it was three plus a ghost 00:56:38 Yeah. 00:56:50 It's three because... there is an aweosme number. :D 00:57:05 Shock would still do quite a bit of damage at that level, yeah? 00:57:35 i really don't have any sense for the power level of monster spells 00:57:36 (: 00:57:45 @??storm dragon 00:57:45 storm dragon (12D) | Speed: 12 | HD: 14 | Health: 70-140 | AC/EV: 13/10 | Damage: 25, 15, 15 | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 11elec+++ | XP: 3006 | Sp: b.lightning. 00:57:45 Me neither. 00:57:50 also, mara is hd20 00:57:51 &M Mara spells:shock 00:58:00 compared to 14 for storm dragons 00:58:00 sorear: Good idea. 00:58:01 then see how much it hurts 00:58:08 which affects things a good amount 00:58:26 !lg * ikiller=mara s=dam kaux=~light 00:58:27 4 games for * (ikiller=mara kaux=~light): 2x 39, 1x 11, 1x 27 00:58:42 !lg * killer=storm dragon kaux=~light s=dam 00:58:43 185 games for * (killer=storm dragon kaux=~light): 66x 0, 7x 31, 7x 26, 6x 28, 6x 23, 6x 30, 6x 27, 5x 25, 5x 34, 5x 42, 4x 32, 4x 33, 4x 47, 4x 39, 4x 37, 3x 38, 3x 16, 3x 48, 3x 24, 3x 20, 2x 22, 2x 45, 2x 18, 2x 44, 2x 40, 2x 29, 2x 19, 2x 35, 2x 41, 2x 12, 2x 11, 1x 21, 1x 46, 1x 9, 1x 4, 1x 13, 1x 36, 1x 6, 1x 15, 1x 17 00:58:57 @??margery 00:58:57 Margery (04@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 22 | Health: 164 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 30 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(146) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 6882 | Sp: b.fire, fireball. 00:59:15 well the bouncing is a big part of it 00:59:58 I based him off margery. 01:00:06 I could change it to bolt of fire. 01:00:13 That still works thematically, and fits in with the red theme.. 01:00:28 Margery can instakill mages without rF too :P 01:00:38 So? 01:00:58 The bouncing of lightning bolt is the issue. 01:01:04 well 01:01:07 i didn't get bounced 01:01:22 !lg * killer=margery kaux=~fire x=dam 01:01:22 81. [dam=60] MarySue the Eclecticist (L18 DEWz), worshipper of Sif Muna, blasted by Margery (bolt of fire) on Snake:3 on 2010-01-16, with 209267 points after 176160 turns and 18:52:08. 01:01:27 !lg * killer=margery kaux=~fire s=dam 01:01:27 81 games for * (killer=margery kaux=~fire): 24x 0, 5x 60, 3x 49, 3x 65, 2x 73, 2x 82, 2x 54, 2x 48, 2x 50, 2x 81, 2x 46, 2x 56, 2x 72, 1x 22, 1x 59, 1x 5, 1x 90, 1x 76, 1x 42, 1x 36, 1x 31, 1x 66, 1x 14, 1x 58, 1x 51, 1x 63, 1x 43, 1x 26, 1x 25, 1x 52, 1x 38, 1x 67, 1x 28, 1x 69, 1x 33, 1x 47, 1x 34, 1x 86, 1x 75, 1x 57, 1x 44 01:01:43 Keeping in mind that he isn't as high-HD as her. 01:01:47 We can also reduce him to HD18. 01:02:04 Because he's really three uniques put together 01:02:18 yeah, the issue really is more the duplication than anything else 01:02:31 (Three uniques, but you get xp for one) 01:02:41 sorear: meh 01:02:50 sorear: I scaled the XP up for exactly that reason. 01:02:51 xp is overrated anyway, and can be tweaked 01:03:04 yeah 01:03:17 It was originally in the 3500 range 01:03:30 I can also make the clones not cast as often. 01:03:44 -!- minced has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:03:52 nah, most of the point is the clones being exact duplicates 01:04:02 Yeah. 01:04:14 Ok, HD18 and bolt of fire, maybe? 01:04:24 Could also reduce the MR. 01:04:26 @??mara 01:04:26 Mara (04R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(213), 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 7532 | Sp: mislead, mara summon, b.lightning, player ghost, pain, teleport self. 01:05:05 hmmm, looking at the numbers, bolt of fire is going to do more damage than bolt of lightning 01:05:10 I think it would be a Good Thing if spell damage were decoupled from HD 01:05:14 on the other hand, more people will have rf 01:05:18 than relec 01:05:28 sorear: yeah, but later 01:05:39 rF is more common than rElec 01:05:42 and there's no bouncing 01:05:45 yeah 01:05:52 So it's a buff andd a nerf in the same breath. 01:06:16 bolt of fire also hits more often 01:06:18 hmmm 01:12:55 shrug, could try it 01:12:59 :) 01:13:10 maybe replace pain with another copy of mislead 01:13:19 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 01:13:22 it won't make much of a difference 01:13:28 -!- Giomancer has quit ["Clap on! , Clap off! Clap@#&$NO CARRIER"] 01:13:28 yeah 01:13:30 he won't cast mislead if you're already misled 01:13:36 how much damage is pain doing? 01:13:50 it's basically in there to stop them spamming lightning bolt. 01:14:12 1d19 i think? 01:14:29 i'm not great at reading monster spell definitions 01:14:33 me neither 01:14:35 which is why I ask 01:14:59 the lightning bolts are at like 3d24 each 01:15:17 which is a bit excessive when they bounce, and when there's three of them a turn coming at you 01:15:24 yeah 01:15:31 okay, we'll dump lightning bolt 01:15:40 (I'm not at all attached to it, I just randomly picked him a bolt spell :)) 01:16:05 bolt of fire at hd18 would be 3d27 though, so shrug 01:16:15 but it doesn't bounce 01:16:30 right 01:16:59 and like i said, people at mara depth will likely have rf anyway 01:18:54 yup 01:19:10 GAH 01:19:17 still have to write the "is identified" lua wrapper 01:19:19 sigh 01:19:35 by the way, isn't saint roka supposed to be female? 01:19:53 No? 01:19:59 I don't think so 01:20:01 hmmm 01:20:12 The language isn't particularly genered, but the tile definitely is. 01:20:13 03Keskitalo * ra2f5dc160d46 10/crawl-ref/.gitignore: Add Windows thumbnail files to .gitignore. 01:20:24 Keskitalo! <3 01:20:24 03Keskitalo * r3ff03b4de963 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Cause Fear shouldn't cause a flood of 'is unaffected' messages around lots of plants/fungi. 01:20:34 everyone keeps using female pronouns when talking about him, anyway 01:20:53 Yeah, but they do that about Mara. 01:20:58 also true 01:21:03 mara is a female name! 01:21:05 (: 01:21:10 not in buddhism :) 01:21:33 Morning! 01:21:49 morning! 01:22:04 How is? 01:23:29 Got that Cause Fear message flood thing. Squish! 01:23:40 03due * r32ddccf01d79 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-spll.h): Buff and nerf Mara, in the same breath! (doy) 01:24:57 Flood! 01:24:59 Squish! 01:30:41 are there any known hangs when using wizard mode to jump to a branch? 01:31:30 Depends on the branch 01:32:05 Vaults, for example. When I press V, it hangs before asking me what level on the vaults I want to '~' to. 01:32:15 Oh, that's new. 01:33:06 works fine here 01:34:04 Perhaps I borked something. Let me see. 01:34:07 Hm 01:34:17 Keskitalo: You borked it :( 01:34:17 doy: I thought female St.Roka was a violetj-ism 01:34:28 sorear: that's possible 01:34:42 Where is immobile_monster defined? 01:34:47 -!- Spads has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:35:00 Oh. 01:35:01 wtf 01:35:07 immobile_monster[mi->index()]? 01:36:40 Keskitalo: You want mons_class_is_stationary, I think. 01:38:09 immobile_monster is something to do with has already moved and shouldn't move again this turn. 01:38:27 it's also an array 01:38:31 yeah 01:38:34 03due * rec4deecb44a5 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Fix compilation. 01:38:43 But I think it's purely for mon-act's tracking purposes. 01:39:04 Arrgh, what the hell did I commit? :D 01:42:28 That's messed up. 01:42:35 Yeah, it's confusing. 01:43:21 I mean, I committed wrong code. That doesn't work. The check is in the wrong place, I fixed that here but seems I managed to commit an unfinished version. 01:43:31 :( 01:43:39 Did you ammend a prvious commit? 01:43:57 Yeah. Failed there somehow. 01:44:04 *slaps forehead* 01:44:16 Ah 01:44:24 git commit --amend merely changes the message 01:44:29 if you want to actually changed th econtent of the file 01:44:33 Nonono 01:44:41 you need git commit --amend --all, OR git commit --amend 01:44:44 this confused me forever :( 01:44:54 What happened was: I had unamended changes to the beam.cc change, I made the gitignore change. 01:44:57 Ahhh 01:45:06 due: it uses the same rules as 'git commit' without --amend 01:45:07 Then I thought "well, I need to amend these beam.cc changes to the earlier commit" 01:45:10 doy: Yeah 01:45:14 git reset --hard HEAD^ 01:45:26 that wiped the uncommitted changes :D 01:46:08 Should I revert and redo, or just commit correct things on top? 01:46:14 Does it matter? 01:46:14 due already fixed it 01:46:20 No, the check is in the wrong place. 01:46:51 ah, just commit it on top 01:46:56 okay 01:47:00 can't modify already pushed commits 01:47:53 Just fix it and commit. 01:47:54 It's easier 01:48:19 Keskitalo: what you needed in that case was to stash firsrt, then reset :) 01:49:06 Yeah. Sleeping in the middle of tweaking the code is obviously not that good. :D 01:49:09 :D 01:49:27 Don't sleep and tweak! 01:49:30 Like drink and drive. 01:50:13 !apt ha armour 01:50:13 Ha (SK_ARMOUR)=150 01:50:23 I have half a mind to go heavy armour halfling. 01:54:42 Can I paste a backtrace in here? 01:54:49 nopaste it 01:55:11 03Keskitalo * r5e2f8f48dadc 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Really fix the Cause Fear & plants commit. 01:56:31 http://nopaste.voric.com/paste.php?f=6rszyl 01:56:58 doesn't seem reasonable for it to be hung there. 02:00:58 sure doesn't 02:01:13 can you step around, see where it's actually caught? 02:02:37 working on it. 02:16:14 O_o 02:21:25 @?? yak 02:21:25 yak (07Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Damage: 18 | Res: 06magic(28) | XP: 223. 02:21:35 -!- minced has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:21:49 Cornering into big hitters and trying to retreat is quite brutal now! :) 02:22:11 In other words, wandering mushrooms kick ass. 02:23:32 why now? 02:25:19 The speed +1/-1. 02:25:40 nice 02:25:51 Not complaining! 02:25:56 (: 02:26:19 what's the best way to print a debug message? 02:26:48 mpr/mprf, probably 02:27:30 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 02:27:46 dprf 02:27:54 Use dprf 02:28:05 Because that can be left in for interesting messages. 02:28:13 well, use dprf fo debug messages that are intended to stay, yeah 02:28:23 Yeah 02:28:31 I just use it anyway 'cos I'm lazy and always do debug builds. 02:28:40 Do I have to enable any flags in order to see them? 02:28:49 make debug 02:29:06 Or DEBUG_DIAGNOSTICS 02:29:35 Hmm, a hostile wandering mushroom? 02:32:27 Cantrips! ..only four spells now? It's lost a Detect spell right? 02:32:54 ??catrips 02:32:54 I don't have a page labeled catrips in my learndb. 02:33:00 ??catnips? 02:33:00 I don't have a page labeled catnips in my learndb. 02:33:02 ;) 02:33:07 ??cantrips 02:33:07 I don't have a page labeled cantrips in my learndb. 02:33:10 Bah. 02:33:13 ??book of cantrips 02:33:13 book of cantrips[1/1]: Spells: confusing touch, animate skeleton, summon small mammals, detect secret doors, apportation. 02:33:22 Yeah, it only did have fice. 02:33:29 Whatever those are. 02:34:11 We could add another XL1 spell. 02:34:47 apportation, maybe? 02:34:54 It's there. :) 02:34:58 Oh. 02:35:00 * due blind. 02:35:39 best way for me to get this code to everybody is by attaching a patch file, or commiting it via git? 02:35:40 It probably needs magic dart. 02:36:05 henryci: Commit and then use git-format-patch(1). 02:36:06 henryci: commit to your local git repository, and use git format-patch 02:36:15 then post it on the wiki 02:36:15 ok. 02:36:22 mantis 02:36:23 not wiki 02:36:25 sorry 02:36:26 (: 02:36:27 right. 02:36:48 since this is my first crawl submission, it'll get a good code review, right? 02:36:56 yup! 02:37:03 every patch gets good code review 02:37:09 unless you make dpeg commit it 02:37:14 do not make dpeg commit your code 02:37:16 we will facestab you. 02:37:40 I thought dpeg wasn't a dev? 02:37:54 He's head designer. 02:38:12 He has commit access, etc, so you can get him to push patches if you really pester him. 02:38:18 But don't do it :) 02:38:36 I can do git-rm and the like, and that's still nicely patchable? 02:38:39 err git-mv ? 02:38:45 yes 02:38:54 best if those are separate commits though 02:39:28 git is usually smart enough, but it's sometimes still confusing if there are moves and edits to the moved file in the same commit 02:39:34 git is delicious 02:39:42 Okay, what do we think about magic dart in book of cantrips? 02:40:34 magic dart isn't a cantrip 02:40:43 there a standard for commit messages? 02:40:50 although with the spells in there now 02:40:53 that seems to hardly matter 02:40:56 yes 02:41:02 set tw=72 02:41:10 henryci: short summary in the first line, skip a line, longer description after that 02:41:12 are you using vim to commit? 02:41:16 yes. 02:41:21 and yeah, lines wrapped at 72 characters 02:41:22 okay 02:41:29 and the summary on the first line will be coloured 02:41:33 it's like the first 60 characters? 02:41:37 50 i think 02:41:45 ah 02:44:58 okay 02:45:00 wish me luck 02:45:07 i'm going to write the identify_flags lua wrapper 02:53:00 does the pathing stuff belong on the "issue: Bugs, Coding, and Implementation" page? 02:53:14 Yes 02:55:37 Twinge: Most timers are around 2500+4000 turns. 02:55:42 Er, 2500-4000 turns. 02:56:31 Ah. Even labyrinths? 02:56:45 They're announced. 02:57:04 Yes. What's thier timer then? 02:57:22 -!- Twinge has left ##crawl-dev 02:57:30 400 to 600... 02:57:46 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 02:57:47 The hell 02:57:51 Whaqt did I just press 02:57:53 :O 02:58:00 Dunno. 02:58:04 400 to 600 for a labyrinth. 02:58:18 Bzaars are... 02:58:20 Instead of Alt-tabbing I managed to close this window, hah. Shrug. 02:58:24 local blow = 200 + 30*(40 - you.absdepth()) + crawl.random2(200) 02:58:24 local bhigh = blow + crawl.random2(blow) + 100 02:58:33 Alt-q. 02:58:43 I do that *all* the time and it drives me crazy. 02:59:45 (Not on irssi, ,though) 02:59:50 Nod. 02:59:50 On Firefox 03:00:20 Will continue to rush like mad to find Labs and Bazaars, check 03:00:38 Heh. 03:01:21 Those sounded like some pretty long timers for the others at any rate, so they probably don't really need to be tweaked upwards. Though Troves requires a gold entry cost you may not have; they are also timed, and 'only' ~3k turns or whatever too? 03:01:34 Troves aare changing. 03:01:40 Ah. 03:01:48 They'll be announced, too. 03:01:58 Fair enough 03:04:15 btw, how much damage does orb of destruction do (compared to LCS / iron bolt / poison arrow)? 03:04:16 I have no idea 03:04:16 it doesn`t seem to do that much :) 03:04:32 took like 4-5 of em to take down an iron troll zombie 03:04:39 4-5 level 7 spells is pretty harsh 03:04:49 cbus: well, it never misses 03:04:53 that's worth something too 03:05:11 -!- Turbo has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:05:15 unless its sidestepped :) 03:05:17 yeah.. is the energy change in, already? 03:05:26 napkin, energy change? 03:05:27 Napkin: yes 03:05:44 in maybe 30 steps the hydra has already hit me 3 times \o/ 03:06:14 @whereis Napkin 03:06:15 Napkin the Impaler (L13 MfCr), a worshipper of Makhleb, is currently on Lair:7 after 29228 turns. 03:06:15 :D 03:06:35 I think it's interestig, we'll see how it goes. 03:06:40 this is the worst change in a long time.. feeling like rolling the dies 03:06:49 napkin, change? 03:07:09 cbus: Monster energy is now 9/10/11 instead of 10. 03:07:25 So, a third of the time they're slowed, and a third of the time they're faster, the rest of the time they're normal. 03:07:45 monster energy? 03:08:07 cbus: each timestep, all monsters gain some amount of energy, corresponding to their speed 03:08:22 once they get enough energy, they can spend some of it to move or attack or whatever 03:08:23 and doesl the player get the same kind of energy? 03:08:35 player speed is handled completely differently 03:08:35 player is different 03:08:36 (: 03:08:50 sounds pretty boring imo 03:08:53 impossible to run 03:08:59 not really 03:09:05 it averages out to the same amount 03:09:10 it does, but youll die 03:09:11 I really don't get it how something like that gets so much F1 in here 03:09:13 it's just not completely safe 03:09:15 if its the same speed 03:09:25 Napkin: f1? 03:09:33 *agreement 03:09:41 cbus: or you'll get an extra space between you and it 03:10:06 either one could happen, although i think greensnark said that monsters start closer toward the 'extra move' side of things 03:10:10 that might be changed 03:10:17 that will probably get changed 03:10:34 i will install 859237a, due - please don't delete it 03:10:38 sure. 03:10:39 is it a good thing that after playing for like 1h 03:10:45 I notice that I`ve stopped using the numpad? 03:10:46 :) 03:10:48 cbus: I haven't noticed much of a change. 03:10:52 "accidently" 03:11:02 (I always type dvorak) 03:11:22 Napkin: why reverting? 03:11:29 Napkin: I had similar thoughts when thewy were talking about it; the change seems awful and adds a level of luck and unpredictability the game doesn't need. Haven't actually tried it yet though. 03:12:20 Twinge: It can be reverted if it gets to it. 03:12:54 or.. i'll just save and wait 03:13:04 ja, playing locally is easier, I guess 03:13:21 I honestly didn't notice it the last game I played. 03:13:26 i didn't either 03:13:30 But I don't count how fast things are. 03:13:35 yeah 03:13:42 And I haven't bene pillar dancing anything recently. 03:14:03 you guys don' ever have to retreat to the stairs up? 03:14:07 it'll likely break kiting, but that's what it was designed to do, since people have been complaining about how easy kiting is 03:14:28 Napkin: i do, and i didn't notice it being harder 03:14:36 actually, I lie 03:14:39 I ran away from a pack of gnolls 03:14:44 and the one that was chasing me missed a turn 03:14:50 Is there any easy way to combine 5 copies of crawl so ghosts/high scores/etc. transfer over? :P 03:14:51 so I got up the stairs without being followed 03:15:55 :D 03:16:04 that's called lucky 03:16:16 if that that is the goal - so be it 03:16:39 how fast are naga+swift? 03:16:46 It hasn't really been discussed anywhere, though. 03:16:49 and I think it really needs to be. 03:16:56 I <3 make -j 03:17:03 i don't think this is something that discussion is going to help 03:17:10 people really need to see how it actually plays 03:17:13 zaba, 4? 03:17:17 cbus, 3 03:17:20 on a 2-core cpu 03:17:20 doy: Sure, but it at least needs to be mentioned somewhere. 03:17:24 zaba, :) 03:17:25 due: sure 03:17:33 zaba, :)/ 03:17:37 Apart from just in a commit messages that peoplel probably didn't read :) 03:17:39 zaba, 4 or 5 on quad? 03:17:52 but discussing something like this without actually getting people to try it out is just a waste of everybody's time 03:17:58 cbus, I'd try both with time and pick whichever turns out to be faster 03:18:05 cbus, but I have no usable quadcores around 03:18:14 zaba, actually, I only compile on my quad in a VM that gets 2 cpus 03:18:21 so its -j3 :) 03:19:01 doy: it's still pretty contentious, though. and if people don't know to be playtesting... 03:19:12 I should do something crawl-related. 03:19:12 due: yes, i agree we should tell people about it 03:19:25 i don't think we should revert it until we get people to agree on it 03:19:29 is my only point 03:19:29 oh, no 03:19:39 we should only revert it if a lot of people disagree and make valid arguments for reversion 03:19:52 heh 03:19:59 we also need to discuss whether or noit it's a design road we want to go down 03:20:00 I don`t see whats wrong with kiting though 03:20:14 cbus: complete lack of risk 03:20:25 doy, not true 03:20:33 doy, unless its on a level without monster spawning 03:20:44 Nio more prompts on level up feels kinda weird 03:20:46 i like the idea, but as napkin says, it introduces a lot of randomness to something that is relatively unrandom. 03:20:46 monsters spawn quite slowly 03:21:09 * Spads had to go look up the gaming meaning of "kiting", as he'd only ever encountered it in the context of check fraud 03:21:17 i think the unrandomness there is a bad thing 03:21:31 doy: that it was unrandom before, or that it's unrandom now? 03:21:39 Spads: moving and fighting in such a way that the monster you're fighting doesn't get a chance to hit you. 03:21:39 that it was unrandom before 03:22:07 it's the entire reason we have things like kiting, and pillar dancing, and the open/close door thing, etc 03:22:21 due: yeah, that's what I found. I was hoping it was going to be about taking advantage of some attribute refresh rate intervals :) 03:22:34 but it doesn't solve the fact that people still need to door and pillar dance. 03:22:50 due: sure 03:22:52 well, I pretty much only pillar dance with casters 03:22:53 that need mana 03:22:58 03zaba * r515f1bd24af8 10/crawl-ref/docs/crawl.6: Update manpage. 03:23:05 the exact numbers that we have now probably need a bit of tweaking 03:23:14 there, I did something crawl-related. 03:23:15 which is something that should also be addressed with if we're going to keep this chantge for 0.6 03:23:27 I should probably complete the manpage with option descriptions someday. 03:23:38 And then replace ./crawl -help with "See crawl(6)."! 03:24:48 or exec man 6 crawl 03:25:39 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:25:50 Ctrl-O Ctrl-O Ctrl-O 03:25:53 moin dpeg 03:25:55 dpeg, yo yo yo 03:25:56 Hi! 03:26:04 ...Oh great, so now every monster in the game can come into view and fire on me in the same turn with this speed change, not just centaurs. 03:26:05 hi dpeg. 03:26:12 dpeg: there has been Drama 03:26:15 what was the speed change? 03:26:15 Is someone here who could review the patch and push it into masteR? 03:26:16 dpeg, its a heated discussion about monster energy here :) 03:26:24 doy: kick! 03:26:30 d: 03:26:32 doy: we all agreed about it yesterday. 03:26:37 Lies 03:26:43 They can take the whining to ##crawl. 03:26:50 btw, you guys should post on the crawl blog on new changes 03:26:54 Okay: greensnark, doy, by, sorear, dpeg agreed. 03:26:57 dpeg: well, the people not involved in "we all" are now crawling out of the woodwork 03:26:58 a short notage about large changes (like monster speed) 03:27:00 (: 03:27:01 dpeg: No, there are a lot of valid complaints. 03:27:15 dpeg: I'm still undecided, personally. 03:27:17 cbus: we do, just not with every update 03:27:23 ok, I agree too, no need to be fair to players about what monsters can and cannot do! 03:27:23 because that would be a lot of effort 03:27:24 (: 03:27:27 due: then people should take it to Mantis/wiki. 03:27:36 dpeg: That's what I am advocating, yeah. 03:27:42 due: What is the problem? 03:27:48 doy, I only see stuff like "Snapping turtles now get their tile picked properly." 03:27:55 dpeg: It introduces an aspect of luck. 03:27:58 cbus: Then you need glasses. 03:27:59 I've seen the energy change with my HEWz and I loved it. 03:28:01 doy, in the latest list, I`m talking about game changing stuff :) 03:28:01 which is good! 03:28:11 latest post is about temple 03:28:13 due: not a problem 03:28:13 cbus: I summarise *every* commit. 03:28:19 And I do this on a weekly basis. 03:28:19 dpeg: main issue is that there are characters still who genuinely need pillar dancing 03:28:25 The only issue I can see is that the change might matters easier. 03:28:25 Yeah. 03:28:37 I could live with the following: don't do the -1, only the +1, 03:28:38 I'm 80% for it, 20% unsure. 03:28:46 and while this is a flaw in those characters, it could be an issue until that gets fixed 03:29:00 i'm still completely for it 03:29:02 doy: Characters "who need pillar dancing" should be repaired in other ways. 03:29:29 But we don't have time to repair them now? 03:29:29 well, spriggans need pillar dancing 03:29:29 dpeg: i agree, the only issue is whether to do that now or later 03:29:29 Zaba: what 03:29:29 dpeg, imo casters are the ones that need it most 03:29:29 well 03:29:34 zaba, Sp can't pillar dance anymore? 03:29:36 spriggans aren't going to be affected here anyway 03:29:43 they still can 03:29:44 spriggans are unaffected except by fast monsters. 03:29:53 This is like saying: "cannot touch Okawaru because there are builds who need him." 03:30:01 this change only really affects pillar dancing with monsters that are the same speed as you 03:30:04 dpeg: No, there are no builds that need Okawaru. 03:30:11 Zaba: Spriggans are absolutely not a problem here. 03:30:12 dpeg: Okawaru is a choice that players make to completement a build. 03:30:20 well, I've started to dislike oka now too :) 03:30:20 it does affect deep elves 03:30:21 crappy gifts 03:30:24 due: well, it's something I have to hear all the time :) 03:30:45 Some characters honestly have no options beyond pillar dancing once they run out of Mana/whatever. 03:30:45 deep elf early game is probably harder because of this 03:30:54 I don't care. 03:30:55 I can give you one example 03:30:55 doy: I'm not really sure this is a bad thing. 03:30:57 Ha 03:31:03 short blade fighters 03:31:05 or Og 03:31:06 Deep elves are powerful in othe raspects. 03:31:12 Og die from everything early on 03:31:13 cbus: yes, short bladers often say this. 03:31:16 they need to get lucky with hits 03:31:30 due: maybe, but i'm not sure how far we can really push the "impossible early game" aspect for them 03:31:37 (My OgBe that eventually died at like level 20-ish had that issue too) 03:31:45 The change should stay, no matter what. I am fine with nerfing it (against the player), if we want. 03:31:47 kobolds or hobbies could kill it unless you berserk or get lucky 03:31:47 doy: DE early game is not that bad. 03:32:24 * dpeg uses a very blunt very large club to poke some sense into ##crawl-dev. 03:32:26 I think -1/0/+1 is good. 03:32:30 ok 03:32:46 yeah, i agree with -1/0/+1 03:33:00 and i definitely agree that it should stay 03:33:00 you could even make it more exotic and only give it to some monsters :) 03:33:01 The main thing I've seen I don't like so far is that now every monster in the game that can use missiles can now appear on screen and fire at you in the same turn. This was bad enough when it was mostly only centaurs that did this :P 03:33:10 just want to be sure to cover all of the consequences 03:33:15 Twinge: They can't do this *all* the time though. 03:33:28 due, they can :) since he said when they show up 03:33:29 Twinge: you aren't really appreciating how rare this is, i think 03:33:35 cbus: ... 03:33:50 due, he means get the first shot before hiding behind cover to wait em out 03:33:56 ... 03:33:57 doy: Perhaps. 03:34:03 Twinge: It's extremely rare. 03:34:04 cbus: Er? 03:34:15 Anyway 03:34:20 We should move the discussion to the wiki 03:34:33 Can someone start a page on the exact change and explain it properly? 03:34:35 cbus: I mean, wandering around on autoexplore or manually, some hobgoblin comes into view and throws a lcub at you on the same turn 03:34:50 twinge, yeah, same with yaktaurs 03:35:06 twinge, now if you autoexplore into a yakpack youll get hit with 24 arrows (one from each yaktaur) instantly :) 03:35:16 and then you get to start thinking on how to oh-shit out of it 03:35:26 as a caster you might already be splatted 03:35:32 but enough of that :) 03:35:33 @??yaktaur 03:35:33 yaktaur (05c) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 24-64 | AC/EV: 4/4 | Damage: 15 | Res: 06magic(32) | XP: 397. 03:35:38 I find it much more annoying that monsters which go from "attack" to "flee" sometimes get a headstart, so they're two squares away. 03:35:43 That's completely different. 03:35:52 Er 03:35:56 yes 03:35:56 The yaktaur thing is completely different 03:35:56 24 arrows? 03:36:12 developers: feel free to prune discussions 03:36:15 doy: is cbus isn't complaining about it, it's broken. 03:36:21 anyway 03:36:25 I need to stop procrastinating 03:36:26 this is a channel for more productive tasks :) 03:36:32 I feel neither strongly nor negatively about this 03:36:37 * dpeg procrastinates at due. 03:36:38 and again, this is not going to be every monster getting constant free turns 03:36:40 I am just putting off the next trove thing. 03:36:41 (for due?) 03:36:45 people need to stop overreacting 03:36:49 and take it to the wiki 03:36:49 (at due?) or (on due?) 03:36:52 dpeg: I'm writing a wrapper for item identification. 03:36:54 doy: agree. 03:37:01 doy: yes, which can be easily achieved with some plain /kicks 03:37:03 Soo yeah, all energy discussion should go wiki now! 03:37:20 So for rarity, it'd be around 1 out of every 27 times a monster came into view, if it's a speed 10 missile user, it'll get a free shot off it wouldn't have before? 03:37:26 Not all! I need someone to review Henry's patch and push it. 03:37:36 doy can do it :) 03:37:46 doy: can you? 03:37:46 unless you want to give me an excuse to pocrastinate troves? 03:37:50 no no 03:37:52 due, not sure I like the change or not, haven't tried it but I'm just being paranoid about missile monster 03:37:52 i should have gone to sleep like 2 hours ago 03:38:01 sniff 03:38:02 i've just been trying to control the discussion here 03:38:03 (: 03:38:08 but it's about time for me to leave 03:38:11 due, so I'm not saying its broken or bugged, I'm just expressing my paranoia :) 03:38:14 doy: use more brute force next time 03:38:14 anyway, gotta run anyway 03:38:16 seriously 03:38:41 dpeg: well, in this case, the points really do need to be addressed at least once 03:38:55 wheres the wiki located? 03:38:56 doy: it is absolutely okay if concerns are voiced. But if they start to rant, just pull the plug. 03:39:02 yeah, i'm aware 03:39:03 (: 03:39:07 dpeg: It's been relatively good, actually. 03:39:18 10:26 <+doy> dpeg: there has been Drama 03:39:22 :) 03:39:29 :) 03:39:31 (: 03:39:34 So I am expecting freestyle fighting :) 03:40:16 forgive me C++ gods 03:40:22 I added another .cc file to the enum.h disaster :( 03:41:02 One other thing that seems off is that it basically replaces pillar dancing with running to the nearest upstairs instead. That doesn't really seem better as such, and isn't as viable on D:1 (I don't really see why this channel isn't a good place for discussing it initially? :P) I do like aspects of the change, it just seems a bit extreme. 03:41:40 Twinge: It's rare enough that pillar dancing is merely penalised, not completely impossible. 03:41:54 But a D:1 death is nothing to be annoyed about. 03:42:03 that's another thing i don't understand 03:42:09 why people get so worked up about d:1 deaths 03:42:11 I have died a thousand times. 03:42:21 I've only felt cheated once. 03:42:32 Oh, no, twice. 03:42:36 i feel cheated by mara! 03:42:37 (: 03:42:41 doy: I nerfed him! 03:42:48 Once to a hand axe trap in a labyrinth, and the other to an acid blob in the Slime entry. 03:43:06 In case anyone else is annoyed: http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/fair_crawl-0.6.0-a1-2883-g515f1bd.zip 03:44:11 Haha. I'm trying to give it a chance before I flat decide it's unfair Napkin ;) 03:44:25 I just had that pleasure 03:44:25 due: never been cheated by a blade trap? 03:44:35 !lg killer=~trap 03:44:36 No games for doy (killer=~trap). 03:44:44 !lg killer=~trap s=killer 03:44:44 No games for due (killer=~trap). 03:44:46 hmmm 03:44:53 !lg * kaux=~trap s=kaux 03:44:56 34 games for * (kaux=~trap): 34x a Zot trap 03:45:05 Interesting. ktyp? 03:45:09 !lg ktyp=~trap 03:45:09 8. doy the Basher (L9 OMFi), worshipper of Okawaru, killed by triggering an axe trap on D:9 on 2008-08-29, with 2984 points after 8451 turns and 0:27:39. 03:45:15 !lg ktyp=~trap s=ktyp 03:45:16 8 games for doy (ktyp=~trap): 8x trap 03:45:16 !lg ktyp=~trap s=ktyp 03:45:16 5 games for due (ktyp=~trap): 5x trap 03:45:19 HAH. 03:45:22 !lg ktyp=~trap s=killer 03:45:22 8 games for doy (ktyp=~trap): 8x 03:45:27 !lg ktyp=~trap s=kaux 03:45:28 8 games for doy (ktyp=~trap): 3x dart, 2x n axe, 1x bolt, 1x spear, 1x n arrow 03:45:28 !lg ktyp=~trap s=vmsg 03:45:28 Bad arg 's=vmsg' - cannot summarise by vmsg 03:45:39 !lg ktyp=~trap max=xl 03:45:40 8. doy the Grappler (L9 DrMo), worshipper of Elyvilon, killed by triggering an axe trap on D:10 on 2007-11-20, with 3869 points after 10992 turns and 0:37:42. 03:45:53 I was once chated by Xom! (No, really! every Xom death I had had before that, I had the ability to get out of if I had played right, but that game he was just a complete ass ;O) 03:46:02 !lg due ktyp=trap max=xl 03:46:03 5. bookofjude the Frost Mage (L12 MuIE), worshipper of Sif Muna, killed by triggering a hand axe trap in a Labyrinth on 2009-08-26, with 25145 points after 40665 turns and 2:25:21. 03:46:13 doy: Yeah, that's the only one I've felt bitter about. 03:46:38 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:46:38 !lg henryci ktyp=trap max=xl 03:46:40 1. henryci the Skirmisher (L3 MuCK), worshipper of Lugonu, killed by triggering a dart trap on D:2 on 2009-11-05, with 103 points after 1805 turns and 0:03:20. 03:46:53 -!- dpeg_ is now known as dpegod 03:46:53 !lg * ktyp=trap max=dam 03:46:54 1806. SadMasher the Destroyer (L16 DECj), worshipper of Sif Muna, killed by triggering a blade trap on Snake:4 on 2009-01-10, with 124442 points after 62916 turns and 6:48:17. 03:47:01 !lg * ktyp=trap max=dam x=dam 03:47:01 1806. [dam=73] SadMasher the Destroyer (L16 DECj), worshipper of Sif Muna, killed by triggering a blade trap on Snake:4 on 2009-01-10, with 124442 points after 62916 turns and 6:48:17. 03:47:01 * dpegod absolves due. 03:47:01 dpegod: wb :) 03:47:10 !lg * ktyp=trap max=dam 03:47:10 1806. SadMasher the Destroyer (L16 DECj), worshipper of Sif Muna, killed by triggering a blade trap on Snake:4 on 2009-01-10, with 124442 points after 62916 turns and 6:48:17. 03:47:21 really, nobody higher than 16 has ever died to a trap? 03:47:26 Nope. 03:47:27 !lg * ktyp=trap max=xl 03:47:27 1806. sorear the Destroyer (L22 OMVM), worshipper of Vehumet, killed by triggering a blade trap on Vault:7 on 2008-10-29, with 374067 points after 103517 turns and 7:59:33. 03:47:35 !lg * ktyp=trap max=xl x=dam 03:47:35 1806. [dam=65] sorear the Destroyer (L22 OMVM), worshipper of Vehumet, killed by triggering a blade trap on Vault:7 on 2008-10-29, with 374067 points after 103517 turns and 7:59:33. 03:47:38 Ah. 03:47:50 !lg * ktyp=trap max=xl x=dam -2 03:47:50 1805. [dam=64] reid the Executioner (L22 MDFi), worshipper of Okawaru, killed by triggering a blade trap on Zot:5 on 2009-12-23, with 341532 points after 97190 turns and 9:20:42. 03:47:59 Heh. 03:47:59 heh, ouch 03:48:01 Anyway. 03:48:14 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:48:30 Hey mu! 03:48:37 hey 03:48:53 anyway, i'm going to bed(: 03:48:58 night doy :) 03:49:04 take care. 03:49:12 -!- Mu_ is now known as Mu 03:49:17 -!- Mu is now known as Mu_ 03:49:36 03by * rf5ba7e9c2b96 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Fix second ring not being displayed in ring remove prompt. 03:50:47 03due * r45e10df5f70d 10/crawl-ref/source/l_item.cc: dlua Wrapper for item identification status. 03:55:35 I love all this heat, we must be doing something right 03:56:55 bye doy! 04:07:55 Magic Dart still prompts you Yes/No if you have an ally behind target, even though accuracy is 100%. Should I mantis this? 04:08:00 Somebody came up with the proposal to switch keys: & <--> Ctrl-O. It would have the advantage that the information is accessed by &%$ etc. on the top row. (And the disadvantage that Ctrl-O is mnemonic whereas & is not.) Opinions? 04:09:54 sounds good 04:10:09 Hi Napking! 04:10:34 Hey David :) 04:13:00 gotta go, eye examination 04:13:31 The doctor has to count how many eyes I have left. And to tell the truth, it's looking grim. But I'll keep an eye on it. 04:14:28 * kilobyte zaps another wand of polymorph at dpegod. What will you grow this time? 04:14:33 The hidden + more prompts definitely feel a bit off, but I'm not sure the best way to tweak them yet. 04:15:57 I cannot unnick my name. That's a divine sign! 04:16:30 -!- dpeg has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:38 There it goes. 04:16:40 -!- dpegod is now known as dpeg 04:17:34 kilobyte: hey, presence is deadly! Would you review henryci's Ctrl-O patch? 04:18:54 henryci is improving on it a bit, so perhaps slightly later 04:19:06 -!- dpeg has quit ["eye count"] 04:19:55 * due counts three eyes. 04:21:07 Twinge: to be pedantic, magic dart accuracy is not *quite* 100% 04:23:03 Oh? 04:24:37 it's +1500 accuracy 04:25:06 that's automatic hit except in the specific case of targets with Deflect Missiles 04:25:12 Ahh. 04:25:57 automatic_hit lke needles? 04:26:56 ok I updated Mantis with a really small tweak. otherwise the change is ready to go. I'm waiting on feedback from this review to work on the next round of improvements to it. 04:27:21 due: #define AUTOMATIC_HIT 1500 04:27:35 and on that note, I'm off to sleep. Take care guys. 04:27:59 -!- henryci has quit [] 04:28:07 and DMsl degrades that number so it no longer matches the check for the magic cookie, right? 04:28:33 right 04:29:05 Kirke is the only monster who uses DMsl (and it's kludged for her), no monster has RMsl. 04:30:31 it may be simpler to change deflect, it's not like +1500 is going to miss in more than 0.1% cases even with DMsl. 04:32:21 sorear: ahhh 04:32:40 delicious magic cookiies 04:37:32 actually, invisibility and corona/glow/halo makes beams not guaranteed either 04:37:45 even though glow _increases_ the to-hit 04:38:04 and this means enchantments can miss 04:38:18 Weird 04:38:37 magic cookies ftw 04:45:24 hooray for "more magic" 04:45:56 Miaow 04:46:56 03kilobyte * r5db597ef1e15 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Make AUTOMATIC_HIT work even vs DMsl, invis or glow. 04:46:59 * kilobyte agrees with greensnark wholeheartly. 04:47:19 What did I propose? :) 04:47:28 "Miaow". 04:47:32 Oh, that 04:47:34 You broke it. 04:47:41 greensnark! Alligators! <3. 04:47:47 greensnark: Do you think we should just leave them as-is? 04:47:50 They are currently quite interesting. 04:47:51 due: Weekend only :/ 04:47:57 We could dump the whole timidity thing. 04:47:57 They're fun, yes 04:48:06 I agree :) 04:48:09 Okay! 04:48:12 That can wait. 04:48:17 Did you hear about the spriggan who got mauled by one? :P 04:48:19 I think I worked out how to do it anyway. 04:48:21 Yesss, I did. 04:49:16 on my MDFi who died to that infinite loop bug, I found them not dangerous but really annoying 04:49:16 kilobyte: You're the first person to touch to-hit since I did the defer_rand thing. How comprehensible is it? 04:49:36 kilobyte: Why not dangerous? Not fast enough? 04:49:36 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:39 Hey rob 04:49:50 Someone needs to fix all the command repeat bugs 04:49:52 overpowered heavy armor? 04:49:56 they start fleeing and you can't chase them, and even if you do, there's few corners you can get them into 04:50:08 Ah. 04:50:13 Maybe they shouldn't flee. 04:50:19 so they come over and over and over 04:50:35 Maybe they shouldn't heal. 04:50:53 non-healing would be strange 04:50:55 Maybe they should taste just delicious when roasted on a low flame 04:51:02 Sorry 04:51:07 hi 04:51:07 by: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 04:51:18 !messages 04:51:18 (1/1) doy said (10h 34m 42s ago): turn speed is still not *quite* at 0.5 levels, but is more than acceptable now. thanks! 04:51:32 by: Yeah, it's a lot better now, thanks <3 04:51:53 I think it was all my fault :) 04:51:55 sorear: I didn't touch anything with defer_rand, so I didn't really read it. 04:52:35 by: Sssh! Don't spoil my knight-in-shining-armour image here :) 04:53:03 monster halo is a damn good thing to have for holy monsters, we'd have to implement it some other way 04:53:35 Monster halo is essential for 0.7 monsters! :( 04:54:00 I don't think anything can [re]move monsters without moveto() or monster_die(), right? 04:55:38 If so, we can have a map of halo counts. Every haloer would have to store a list of squares he lit up since features and clouds _are_ modified in thousand places, but that's doable. 04:56:46 kilobyte: yes, I was thinking how to do this properly 04:57:10 the same mechanism should probably be able to handle monster silence also 04:57:34 ideally, also stationary halo-like effects: sanctuary, or the proposed scroll of silence that stays in place 04:58:17 due: speaking of 0.7 monsters, I wanted 'i' for spriggans (several different jobs, like merfolk in Shoals or elves in Elf). This assigment also uses a glyph that looks like a small creature with a head. 04:58:31 due: may I change elementals again? Or would you have another suggestion? 04:59:31 by: so there would be several possible effects, not a single counter. Good point. 05:00:01 by: sanctuary can spill over the walls, but halo really should obey visibility :( 05:00:24 yes, optionally there should be some LOS parameters stored with the area effect 05:01:13 but all I did so far was create areas.{h,cc} 05:01:49 due: It would be cool if alligators stayed submerged until disturbed, though :) 05:01:52 I mean, it would be better if sanctuary _didn't_ spill over walls, I only mentioned it because we may skip that for simplicity. 05:02:05 "You see here a floating log" 05:02:08 :P 05:02:09 greensnark: oooh, me likes! 05:04:19 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:04:24 cheers 05:04:33 We have a 'd' shaped peg 05:04:52 So Henry has made a new patch. Anyone gotta push that into master? 05:05:47 If nobody speaks up, I'll do it! 05:06:15 So Henry any relation to O Henry? 05:06:19 What is the patch? 05:06:28 New Ctrl-O screen. Pure love. 05:06:33 Ooh 05:06:40 http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/file_download.php?file_id=218&type=bug 05:06:44 I'll let you get to it, I'm at work :) 05:07:05 I'll do, I will just not fix anything about it. Trusting Henry knows his stuff =) 05:07:08 Is that the new one or the old one? :) 05:07:16 greensnark: grrrr :P 05:07:28 * greensnark rarely looks at ^O :) 05:07:48 greensnark: it's a weapon of mass destruction now! 05:08:00 Did anyone comment on & <--> Ctrl-O ? 05:08:17 actually, what about having both? 05:08:25 I would associate & with summoning a pan lord 05:08:31 But yeah, why not :) 05:08:42 you would make both old and new players happy 05:08:42 kilobyte: and wizmode? 05:08:46 kilobyte: true! 05:08:54 almost all ctrl keys are unused 05:09:00 kilobyte: cool, I am all for it 05:09:15 If someone makes that change, I'll take care of ?? and documentation. 05:09:29 What key would wizmode take? 05:09:47 kilobyte: feel free to take on the areas if you like 05:10:23 dpeg: I'll have a look at the Ctrl-O patch 05:10:27 by: are you going to mess with monster visibility first? 05:10:53 what about monster visibility? 05:11:01 about the Ctrl-O patch: it marks gods not present in the same colour as some other info on that screen 05:11:15 Oh, the altar display is new on ^O 05:11:35 greensnark: yes, which is really useful with the new temple system 05:11:47 greensnark: also, the screen shows how far you went in the various branches 05:11:48 Yes, that's neat 05:11:57 I should try to use ^O more often :) 05:12:02 I usually just ^F altar :P 05:12:18 Will ^O have shortcuts to travel to the place? 05:12:28 greensnark: no, but it tells you how to get there 05:12:37 Shortcuts would be nice 05:12:42 Because otherwise it's two steps 05:12:48 greensnark: the screen is already very full 05:12:49 Where I could just search for ^F altar first instead 05:12:57 by: I mean, halo needs to know all squares visible from a monster every turn, and I heard that visibility causes most of slowdown issues 05:12:59 Abbreviated god names? :) 05:13:05 no way! 05:13:16 Represent gods by first letter of their names? :D 05:13:17 Altough I did toy with a mini version, using only the first letter :) 05:13:25 Ahh, great minds think alike :P 05:13:41 kilobyte: I don't see the problem... what is wrong with darkgrey vs other colour for unseen vs found? 05:14:03 by: ok, so will stop my clumsy effort at applying the patches 05:14:32 kilobyte: ah; for the few monsters with halos, I don't think it's a problem; I think you can assume actor::get_los will continue to exist 05:16:28 get_distance_to_cell will be expensive 05:16:35 On that bug discussion 05:17:04 Interlevel travel can calculate the distance for you, but doing it for a bunch of different things on the overmap is always going to be expensive 05:17:20 Unless we save all stair distances for all squares on all levels 05:18:03 greensnark: well, we only want to indicate whether altars are in reach or not... is there a better way? 05:18:11 Which would be about 60k of overhead per level, not too bad, actually 05:19:00 dpeg: The advantage of doing that would be that ^F could sort by real distance even to offlevel items 05:19:09 Currently ^F doesn't sort by anything but level delta 05:19:18 It would be easy to make ^F sort by distance to items on level 05:19:21 greensnark: yes, a permanent source of confusion :) 05:19:31 greensnark: sounds great to me 05:19:33 But sorting by distance to offlevel items will need more info in the travle cache 05:20:16 I'll consider it on the weekend, it should be fun to do :) 05:22:01 yay 05:22:24 The extra data will probably have to go into a db though :) 05:22:44 Currently interlevel travel actually loads the target level to pathfind to arbitrary points 05:22:50 Which is ex-pen-sive 05:23:16 And 60k of data per level means we can't keep it in-memory like the rest of the travel cache 05:23:49 greensnark: will we require players to upgrade their machines? Yes? 05:23:56 for interlevel travel we need to store only distances between every pair of stairs 05:24:43 kilobyte: Yes, that's what the travel cache stores currently 05:24:49 I love how every computer I compile crawl on shows a different set of warnings 05:25:02 "Crawl runs on: 80286, 1 MB RAM, 20 NM HD, Hercules. Recommended: five processors, 20 GB RAM, 2 TB HD, Ultraforce graphics card." 05:25:06 But when you want to go to a specific item on a different level, it needs to load that level map to figure out how to path there 05:25:28 I don't want to maintain multiple version.. so in case someone is annoyed too, this is the permanent link: http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/fair_crawl.zip 05:25:31 Because it uses the shortest path to the square, not the shortest path to the level + shortest path to the square from wherever it landed onlevel 05:25:59 Blarg, the current message system implementation seems to result in more unnecessary pauses in the text, not less :/ 05:26:13 Twinge: Specific instance? 05:26:24 If you document the problem, by can squelch it :) 05:26:30 green: Every single time I butcher a corpse! 05:26:44 Have you filed a bug? 05:26:54 Not yet. 05:26:59 Napkin: what is this? 05:27:01 With a paste of the messages you get, and how you'd prefer it to be 05:27:28 dpeg: I think it's the fuzz to monster energy :) 05:27:35 dpeg: It doesn't have the energy tweak, yeah 05:27:41 Isn't "fair" and "crawl" an automatic contradiction? 05:27:47 An oxymoron! 05:28:07 I think a reasonable bit of playtesting will reveal problems, if any 05:28:11 If it's broken, it'll be fixed 05:28:18 That's the usual procedure with most things! 05:28:24 Napkin: is it so bad? For my HEWz it was just more flavour, nothing serious. 05:29:12 dpeg: Disagree. Crawl being fair is basically the primary appeal of Crawl as far as I see it :P 05:29:13 I liked how monsters don't always walk machine-like now, but a bit more erratically. 05:29:30 Well, what is "fair" :) 05:29:45 Crawl is a maiden, wondrous fair? :) 05:29:52 -!- Spads_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:30:01 "A game so foul and fair I have not seen." 05:30:20 my zombie just hit something invisible, but doesnt have sense invis (do any zombies?) should this happen? 05:30:23 All too often people say things are "unfair" when they mean "I don't like it!", or "I don't know how to beat it" 05:30:23 Crawl = welfare 05:30:49 That's true. 05:30:55 On the energy thing, I really think it should be given a chance with a little playtesting 05:31:32 I played it! 05:31:35 I plan to run a few weak melee types on the weekend, as well 05:31:35 I guess the most important thing is to be *aware* of it. 05:31:35 doing maybe 30 steps towards the stairs and getting hit 3 times by the hydra - yes, I don't like that and it's unfair. 05:31:36 greensnark: ah, testing AC along the way. 05:32:21 Napkin: 4.1 would have simply increased hydra speed. Would that be fairer? 05:32:56 and changing 1.5h weapons is cool.. but changing all 1.5h but the broad axes is.. I don't like that and it's unfair. 05:33:00 Napkin: you are a player at heart :) 05:33:00 yes, that would be fairer, dpeg 05:33:02 This is not meant in any negative way, but it's the crucial difference, I think. We think as developers, so that might explain the tension. 05:33:03 Well, on the broad axes I was judging by the relative strength of the axe family overall, not just 1.5h weapons 05:33:08 that's something you can deal with in a structured matter 05:33:08 I see a market for an automated roguelike playtesting bot that automatically tells you what's wrong with your rl 05:33:14 not relying on random even on that. 05:33:15 But I also did recommend that the team discuss the 1.5h stats :) 05:33:27 greensnark: the team agrees!? 05:33:38 bhaak: Summary: "Your roguelike sucks!" 05:34:05 Or better still, "Your roguelike has just one problem; it's lousy!" 05:34:20 I could write a playtesting bot that does that, actually 05:34:20 -!- Spads has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:34:24 My AI skills are up to it! 05:34:28 greensnark: too demotivating. you must rephrase that in a more positive way 05:34:28 "Your roguelike is a putrid pile of bile. Blurgh!" 05:35:07 Message Scroll changes result in MORE unnecessary pauses, not less (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=592) by Twinge 05:35:09 Ah, thrice-damned political correctness 05:35:36 "Your roguelike has numerous fine points, but I am compelled to DAMN IT TO THE NETHERMOST PITS OF HELL for containing no oklobs?" 05:35:39 03henry * r8b75b7f5014d 10/crawl-ref/source/overmap.cc: Updated Overmap (^O) output 05:35:40 03henry * rda6165bb779c 10/crawl-ref/source/overmap.cc: Text changes for information and space optimization. 05:35:48 yay 05:35:49 later, lunch time 05:36:05 who was this? I was working on it :( 05:36:07 Ctrl-O patch, with whitespace corrections and spel-cheked commit messages 05:36:09 One more note about the monster speed randomness - it makes Conjure Flame a lot more powerful 05:36:23 by: me, sorry. What else did you fix? 05:36:44 don't worry; I'll see when I rebase 05:37:48 Twinge: not a lot, the randomness is so small it hardly affects anything but weapon speed abuse 05:38:19 Hi! 05:38:48 Our dues are due 05:39:19 I'm building a lego fire engine. 05:41:07 greensnark: sometimes you must set your criticism mode to "soothing". I just sent an e-mail about a "GUI prototype" (it was just an ugly 9 page PDF with lousy to none description). If I had written what I thought, those guys would never talk to me again (but that's not up to me, the customer wants an integrated admin tool for two different apps) 05:43:36 -!- Zaba_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:39 how about converting the text files from docs/ and settings/ to CRLN in the windows builds? 05:45:11 Sort order in searches not consistent upon resort (while in bazaar) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=593) by Nexos 05:45:20 kilo: I'm playing a char with conjure flame right now, and I think the only reason I'm fine with the speed flux so far is because it keeps making convient gaps for a flame to drop in and block them off :P 05:48:31 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:48:53 -!- Spads_ has quit [Client Quit] 05:49:05 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 05:52:09 Napkin: that sound slike a good idea 05:52:45 Napkin: Is there an easy way to do a windows build of another brunch? Enne and I are trying to sort out this weird water thing. 05:53:09 ... brunch. 05:53:13 Man, I must have food on the brain. :D 05:53:16 * due buys everyone brunch. 05:53:33 due: uhm, checkout then build? I don't see the problem... 05:53:50 kilobyte: Different context. 05:55:27 yes, due 05:55:36 speaking of Winblows, there's mingw-w64 out there. Should we port, or would that be useless for now that all win64 systems can run win32 binaries? 05:55:50 like i did with update-mingw-non-tiles-fair.sh 05:56:07 you branch should be easier to setup 05:56:45 *your 05:57:01 let's do it tomorrow "morning"? 05:58:33 Napkin: Okay, will look into it later! 05:58:40 Enne's latest change didn't fix it for me.. 05:58:52 So hopefully there's something else that can fix it. 05:59:51 it's quite easy, due 06:00:21 which branch is it? I'll adjust the wrapper scripts later today 06:00:45 still too annoyed to have to play locally again at the moment :-X 06:06:04 bhaak: Well, obviously I wasn't serious with the criticism bot dialogue :P 06:06:59 03kilobyte * rdbf986fe4750 10/crawl-ref/source/overmap.cc: Fix splelling errors in the source. 06:10:51 greensnark: but I could imagine such a bot having code like "if (nethack) random_generic_criticism else if (band) random_grinding_criticism" :-) 06:11:29 "Wot, you still have Elbereth?!" :P 06:11:45 if (crawl) random_difficulty_criticism :D 06:12:23 We cranked up the OOD gen, so yeah, we'll get those even from real people :P 06:12:41 try zapm, the number of id scrolls vs potions of antimatter 06:12:47 or about any other zapm feature 06:13:17 and the most-holy-s3kr1t-source of DoomRL or ADOM. 06:13:53 -!- Napkin has left ##crawl-dev 06:14:11 due: Windows build on 0.5 is completely different from Windows build on trunk, but Enne should know the details 06:14:17 I think there's a tile makefile for MinGW 06:14:31 But you should probably run it from a cmd.exe, not bash 06:15:02 I think Napkin is really annoyed with the energy changes :) 06:15:40 kilobyte: zapm is fast game, you die soon in the game if quaff-id, but there's almost any time a ID floopy in the robot town 06:16:21 ... which lasts for 1-3 ids 06:16:48 not if you try to crack it :-D 06:17:29 in zapm, you can also use price-id to determine the deadliest things 06:17:50 ... and have luck vs lawyers, but that can be mostly dealt with teleportation 06:17:59 price-id is close to Elbereth 06:18:47 it was refreshing to have a price-id that is simple :) 06:19:24 but it would also not have taken long to notice that a canister of antimatter is the most costly one 06:20:32 due: We have a wizlab entry! 06:29:43 burp 06:31:22 well I just led this ogre in a circle for about 100 turns and it didn't get next to me, so running around to regain mp like that still seems fine 06:32:06 st_: yes, it might simply make player run earlier 06:32:20 which means it'd be harder for melee but not much of a problem for casters 06:32:39 yeah, it might be a nice boost to stealth too 06:41:35 03by * rc4fe04ddb204 10/crawl-ref/source/overmap.cc: Make local functions static. 06:41:36 03by * r0202c38c78b6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h overmap.cc): Remove magic number one: first non-dungeon branch. 06:41:37 03by * rcf06bd33be5e 10/crawl-ref/source/overmap.cc: Minor formatting. 06:41:41 03by * r61a64f8952fc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (religion.cc religion.h): Sort temple_god_list by name. 06:41:42 03by * rce656e131f82 10/crawl-ref/source/overmap.cc: Convert overmap to get the sorted list of gods from religion.cc. 06:41:44 03by * r0e05a7b8ee12 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-project.cc: Fix compile warning for int conversion. 06:42:36 it certainly makes the "let the monster with slow weapon hit you to open a space" tactic less reliable 06:42:49 vs orc warriors specifically 06:43:20 jarpiain: that's good, isn't it? 06:44:00 :) 06:44:01 03kilobyte * r8c4f12f832f2 10/crawl-ref/source/overmap.cc: Show penance on Ctrl-O. 06:44:56 I wonder if it allows for crazy things like Cerebov slinging multiple firestorms in a turn 06:45:11 03dpeg * rc448164974c7 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Add Henry to CREDITS. 06:45:13 st_: that can be repaired if the casulties roll in. 07:01:05 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:02:06 greensnark: Who? 07:03:39 Sticking found Eringya's 07:03:48 Ahhh 07:03:57 Does it say Eringya? I need to fix that. 07:06:00 !lm * br.enter=~wizlab 07:08:08 23. [2010-01-28] Sticking the Destroyer (L18 HuFE) entered Erinya's Formal Garden on turn 42170. (WizLab) 07:08:38 I guess the old spelling is stuck in my head :) 07:08:52 Wasn't it "Eringya's Surprising Bouquet"? 07:08:59 The old spell 07:09:25 the -s in ^P are nice 07:21:49 greensnark: always Erinya 07:21:53 as far as I know 07:22:48 Oh 07:23:01 I must have misremembered 07:23:23 What *was* that spell? 07:24:53 atacama:~/fun/crawl/dc40/dc400b26-src/source$ grep 'Erin' *.cc *.h 07:24:54 spl-data.h: SPELL_ERINGYAS_SURPRISING_BOUQUET, "Eringya's Surprising Bouquet", 07:24:58 Sorry dpeg :P 07:25:02 Damn! 07:25:04 Oh really? 07:25:07 I'll have to change it back. 07:25:08 Spellings tend to stick in my skull 07:25:10 What did it do? 07:25:14 I stand corrected! 07:25:29 was it ever implemented? 07:25:43 case SPELL_ERINGYAS_SURPRISING_BOUQUET: 07:25:43 description += "transmutes any wooden items in the caster's grasp " 07:25:43 "into a bouquet of beautiful flowers. "; 07:25:56 <3. 07:25:59 I so want to implement thatt spell. 07:26:01 No idea if it was implemented, but it sounds unlikely 07:26:11 sorear would know 07:26:12 Well, we already have S2S which is even useful. 07:26:22 * kilobyte heard somewhere that the flowers were supposed to be edible by spriggans. 07:26:31 Also, if we have flowers, I want to be able to pick them up. (Female players!) 07:26:52 kilobyte: old Spriggans were not vegetarians. That's a soupism. 07:27:06 my one =) 07:27:12 It's a good one, imho. 07:27:25 Yes, it's a good decision :) 07:27:39 Although I wasn't sure at first :P 07:27:43 Have to give some credits to Erik, he proposed veggie centaurs. 07:27:50 Hee 07:28:01 And he hated my idea of veggie Spriggans instead :) 07:29:58 We need ziggurat spam protection :P 07:30:04 seriously 07:30:08 Or we could just shoot syllogism with ballistic trout 07:30:22 greensnark: monster spam or message spam? 07:30:24 I'm ready to end the game once I find a book with bolt of draining :P 07:30:33 dpeg: ##crawl milestone spam :P 07:30:38 ah! 07:30:44 It doesn't happen *that* oten. 07:33:03 hey, that could make a cool aquamancer spell :p 07:33:36 b0rsuk would hate it :P 07:33:47 greensnark: Alll the mote reason to do it. 07:34:19 borsuk is very good to have around, I highly value his input. 07:34:52 s/very good/a pain in the ass/ 07:35:16 Is that an auto-responder? I haven't seen lorimer speak in forever. :) 07:35:28 a rain of fish could be a good Xom act, too. 07:35:37 kilobyte: So true. 07:35:42 Or a rain of frogs. Or even cats and dogs. 07:35:44 borsuk's presence has improved the game substantially in various places. Yes, he isn't too easy to communicate with. But it's worth it. 07:36:02 please leave rain of blood for Trog 07:36:13 Can I plz plz plz do rain of blood for trog? 07:36:34 What about a rain of bedsteads 07:36:37 due: right after we branch! 07:36:42 Lugonu has it wherever there's a --more-- during an Abyss shift. 07:36:44 Are we branching tonight? 07:36:51 That sounds kinky 07:37:10 Official 1.0 criterion: "When all Slayer records have been incorporated into the game." 07:37:19 * due snorts 07:37:22 you're obsessed :) 07:37:30 I don't even listen to Slayer, too wimpy. 07:38:05 I find it amusing that a band described as "thrash metal" could be considered wimpy. 07:38:11 I suppose my love of Enya is a bad thing, yeah? 07:38:27 * dpeg listens to Extreme Noise Terror's "A Holocaust in your Head" right now. That's a classic! 07:38:41 due: how can taste be a bad thing? 07:38:58 I think the only ... rather heavy stuff that I've listened to and enjoyed as WA The Drive-In. 07:39:01 Taste is not supposed to be compared at all, let alone on linear scales. 07:39:06 Er, was At The Drive-In. 07:39:21 * dpeg does a difficult computation. 07:40:20 were there changes to glow recently? 07:40:24 I might be imagining it, but post-haste glow seems to be going away really really fast 07:43:19 yeah nevermind, I am :p 07:44:20 due: so, have you thought about the issue of 'i' being wanted for 0.7? 08:04:06 -!- scarf has joined ##crawl-dev 08:05:05 kilobyte: Yup. 08:08:17 Stuff needs to be done with E, I and R, so there'll be leftovers then for elementals. 08:08:38 But getting them off # is a Good Thing, in my opinion. 08:10:26 They can change before 0.6 goes out, also, if necessary. 08:15:22 03by * rded71b88012d 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: temple_god_list: Factor out static function _is_temple_god. 08:23:54 I would prefer E to i for elementals 08:24:04 by: Yeah, I suppose it could be done. 08:24:13 May I still propose elemental colours for elementals? 08:24:20 dpeg: Sure, that's doable. 08:24:24 But I despise them on '#'. 08:24:42 Drawback: not fully obviosu where the elementals are (you may have to press Space). Pro: an earth elemental is still an # :) 08:25:09 I consider an earth elemental on '#' a con :) 08:25:29 * by wants earth elementals as walking walls 08:25:33 ^ 08:25:40 due: that's the pro, it is good flavour 08:25:45 :/ 08:25:48 but that's hard to balance 08:26:18 I sort of agree with due that earth elementals on # that don't behave like walls are problematic 08:26:39 Visually confusing and annoying, constantly having to use x the check what's what. 08:26:43 * greensnark waves the "This is subjective" flag :) 08:26:56 greensnark: I was about to comment that this is a matter of taste. 08:27:09 Well, I won't complain if someone changes them back. 08:27:13 I like elementals on '#' better, but the current change doesn't bother me much, so it's fine 08:27:19 I'd rather they go to 'E' instead of '#', though. 08:27:20 Same here. 08:27:40 My concerns with merging E and R is colour clash between Azrael and Mara :) 08:27:48 But Mara can just become lightmagenta, so that's okay. 08:27:49 shadows on ' ' was for 'flavor' too 08:27:51 Someone should give Azrael more hp :P 08:28:03 As it is he keels over if you so much as look at him harshly :P 08:28:04 -!- lorimer has quit ["experiment"] 08:28:08 @??Azrael 08:28:08 Azrael (04E) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 88 | AC/EV: 10/5 | Damage: 12 | Flags: 05demonic, lev | Res: 06magic(44), 04fire+++, 03poison | Vul: 12cold | XP: 1588 | Sp: b.fire, sticky flame, fireball, hellfire, hellfire burst. 08:28:12 Pitiful :P 08:28:19 He's only a HD11 unique. 08:28:20 Actually that's more than I thought :P 08:28:22 doy: true. But I found ' ' to be problematic, '#' not nearly so. 08:28:46 I didn't mid ' ', because you could usually spot it pretty quickly. 08:28:53 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 08:28:55 With earth elementals, there was no way to tell if they were near a wall. 08:28:59 I think it's good that he can be killed somewhat quickly 08:29:00 But yeah, ' ' was bad. 08:29:30 Well, I'm happy to merge E and R and move elementals onto E for 0.6, that way 'i' is free for 0.7? 08:29:32 I think I saw him go down to one bolt of cold, but 88 hp is not too bad at all 08:29:39 For HD 11 08:29:46 I retract the Azrael suggestion :P 08:29:56 due: go for it 08:30:45 ugh, I don't remember if there's a cloud of flame under the spiny frog or not 08:30:48 I think there's also enough support to combine & and Ctrl-O and give wizard mode a new command. 08:31:02 by: will come, I am in touch with Haran. 08:31:28 sure; it just was an annoyance before, but now it's a matter of life and death :) 08:32:25 die well, my friend 08:33:11 I hate linking. 08:34:15 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 08:34:52 greensnark: I'm done :P 08:35:35 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 08:38:24 why am I coding 08:38:46 You were bitten by a radiactive programming trout as a child, no doubt 08:38:47 due: Glamour! Fame! Money! Girls! 08:39:11 I like my explanation better 08:39:38 it's almost 1am 08:39:57 my "fiix" is a "break" 08:40:02 http://sprunge.us/dUPW 08:40:08 someone please tell me what is wrong :( 08:40:28 one glyph problem which keeps concerning me is clouds on # 08:40:41 especially in the Abyss, it's really hard to distinguish between clouds and walls 08:41:01 scarf: different colours? Also: unicode! 08:41:22 dpeg: wall colours are picked at random in the abyss, so colour's unreliable at least 08:41:27 true 08:41:38 I might have to look into customising the character set, but really the game ought to be playable with the defaults 08:41:53 There's no better glyph for clouds than #, unless we use &. 08:42:24 yes, as always glyph shortage is the issue... 08:42:55 if I'm customising, I might use ` or ~ 08:43:11 ~ is pre-loved. 08:43:22 Unicode support is really iffy across platforms 08:43:31 scarf: The game is playable with default. 08:43:47 Okay, I give up 08:43:48 stupid bug 08:43:48 Complaining on a high level. 08:43:53 dpeg: well, ok 08:43:56 I meant, more playable 08:43:57 st_: Can you file a bug re was cursed was cursed. 08:44:07 was cursed was cursed? 08:44:11 due: did my fix not work? 08:44:12 Oh, double inscription 08:44:25 greensnark: http://sprunge.us/dUPW 08:44:28 doesn't work :/ 08:44:30 Unsure why. 08:44:33 clouds could use ' or ` 08:44:43 # is good for clouds 08:44:50 doy: too small and not cloud-y enough? 08:45:02 hmm, clouds are pretty insubstantial 08:45:11 Not really? 08:45:17 Not our clouds. 08:45:19 hmmm, choosing randomly between those glyphs (like elemental colors) could look pretty cloudy 08:45:55 If Eino was here, he'd beat your little bums up for these heretic ideas. 08:46:15 alternatively, can't we get that view mode that hides clouds and monsters yet? 08:46:36 being able to press a key to see the floor everywhere would help too 08:46:52 doy: that should be much more possible now that env.show doesn't just store the top thing 08:46:55 doy: heh, you've been infected with TAEB-think 08:46:58 although, good idea 08:47:13 scarf: i had that idea before we started doing it for taeb 08:47:13 (: 08:47:27 it's a good one 08:47:27 mostly because of the swamp, and the thin mist 08:47:35 i am sleep 08:47:35 making it impossible to know where deep water is 08:47:47 (incidentally, TAEB's internal conventions seem rather inspired by Crawl) 08:49:34 bye due 08:51:05 "was cursed" inscription fault (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=594) by st 08:51:19 anyway, I figured out what was going on with that entry vault; false alarm, there's an escape hatch there 08:51:36 although I set the weight of the vault to something really high for testing and went in with a bunch of DENes 08:51:46 they sometimes starved trying to get out of the vault the normal way 08:52:00 and the time I just used the escape hatch, I fell into the middle of a horde of orcs and died 08:53:11 -!- bhaak is now known as crawl_fanboy 08:54:16 crawl_fanboy: We already knew that 08:54:26 Only fanboys hang out here :P 08:54:43 hmm, I'm more of an antifanboy 08:55:01 crawl devs! do you wanna have some new munition for criticize nethack's code quality?????1 08:55:17 crawl_fanboy: You left out the LOL 08:55:30 Got to put in a LOL somewhere, or we can't take your fanboy-ness seriously 08:56:05 I'm not entirely sure that disguise is effective 08:56:17 crawl_fanboy: I'm always interested 08:56:28 He needs more practice. LOL. 08:56:30 LULZ@ http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Read.c#line1236 http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Muse.c#line1411 08:56:41 -!- crawl_fanboy is now known as bhaak 08:56:42 anything that makes comprehending roguelike code easier is a win 08:56:42 crawl_fanboy: That's much better :) 08:56:58 dpeg: Heheehee :) 08:57:43 bhaak: you could surely have found better examples of code duplication than that 08:57:59 like the one that has a big comment saying something along the lines of "I dare you to do this without duplicating code" 08:58:36 Er, that code does have the comment saying exactly that 08:58:39 ah, found it, muse.c line 1413 08:58:41 *1412 08:59:00 scarf: LOL 08:59:12 greensnark: ah, I accidentally looked at 1397 from bhaak's list 08:59:20 which is a duplicate of something very close in read.c 08:59:24 bhaak: You're becoming a pro at the LOL usage :P 08:59:34 IOW, I found an entirely different bit of code duplication from the one you were talking about 09:00:15 anyway, statistical findings: it takes about 2 hours of startscumming a SpCK of Lugonu to get an abyssal rune 09:00:20 scarf: no, I just pointed into the middle of the code duplication, with the most fun :) 09:01:03 to me, that's a worryingly small amount of time; if someone automated it, it might just be 10 minutes or so 09:01:09 the code duplication starts at 1355 in muse.c and 1183 in read.c 09:01:29 Can we just get rid of CK of Lugonu 09:01:38 Or make them start in the dungeon :P 09:01:43 -!- Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 09:01:45 greensnark: starting in the dungeon wouldn't help 09:01:49 as you have to leave and abandon anyway 09:01:58 Oh, for rune purposes 09:02:03 I'm not worried about rune scumming 09:02:06 It doesn't help you anyway 09:02:10 agreed 09:02:17 I've tried exp scumming as well, which is slightly easier 09:02:23 I guess it might be useful for speedrunning 09:02:40 if you find a good attack wand, or a wand of enslavement, you can normally get up to level 7 or so before you have to run 09:03:16 Anyway, it's not a major problem as far as I'm concerned :P 09:03:25 nor me, I like the fact that it's possible 09:03:53 ofc, it's kind of annoying when you get killed unavoidably by Lugonu's wrath a few hundred turns later 09:04:04 I do think the Abyss' cool factor is reduced a bit by CK of Lugonu starting there 09:04:13 greensnark: I think it's increased a bit by that 09:04:24 Well, obviously subjective, so :P 09:04:33 it's a very very cool level, but it takes ages to reach normally 09:04:49 I imagine that meeting it in normal play is just frustrating, because you've invested so much time into your character 09:04:56 No, it was reserved as the "Ohshit I'm here and I don't want to be" place for new players 09:04:59 Now ... it's not 09:05:14 whereas places like Abyss and Pan that can be reached at level 1, you can take lots of characters through them without caring if they die 09:05:41 greensnark: the think about that ohshit is, if people are just worried about survival they'll miss how beautiful the level is 09:05:57 Well, I'm not going to see eye to eye with you on this :P 09:06:00 So let's move on :P 09:06:18 yep 09:10:01 does the starting abyss have random pan gates 09:10:23 Abyss has random Pan gates? 09:10:25 Whyy 09:10:32 someone randomly decided it was a good idea :P 09:10:49 :/ 09:11:39 Adam Borowski 09:12:07 Is the skill training for Armour/Dodgin decided 09:12:21 what's wrong with pan gates in the abyss? 09:12:42 * greensnark waves the "It's subjective" flag 09:12:54 If it's done, it's done :P 09:13:05 I thought there might be some objective reasons against 09:13:20 It just feels like too much commingling to me 09:13:20 * doy agrees with greensnark 09:13:24 -!- Cryptic has joined ##crawl-dev 09:13:27 ck[lugonu] is boring 09:13:28 This is the ultimate turn of irony. 09:13:33 and the abyss shouldn't have pan gates 09:13:54 the abyss and pan need to be more differentiated 09:13:55 I FINALLY get Cryptic and the guy who registered it logged into is 15 hours ago, resetting the 60-day clock. 09:14:14 * doy waits for the nick collision 09:14:17 abyss should have pan gates that look like dungeon exits until you enter 09:14:23 :P 09:14:29 I proposed abyssal mirages sometime back :P 09:14:37 doy, I'm keeping my work computer running for the next 2 months. 09:14:38 "Oops that exit was a mirage" 09:14:44 +1 :P 09:14:44 If Cryptic wants his name back, he can ghost me out of it. 09:14:47 Erik hated it :P 09:14:57 greensnark: well, stone arches were added too 09:15:00 i do like that 09:15:01 (: 09:15:12 syllogism: Did you see Omnijim's abyss splat? 09:15:17 no 09:15:20 He was hit by a teleport by a hellwing 09:15:26 And he got onto the exit when it kicked in 09:15:32 could have portals leading to another region of the abyss 09:15:35 And he was teleported like 6 squares away :P 09:15:52 He played the Abyss quite well for an XL8 characte too 09:16:11 oh level 8, that's basically a CK of lugonu :P 09:16:14 And he might have made it if he'd tried again for the exit instead of running away 09:16:20 !lg Omnijim Abyss 09:16:21 7. Omniguy the Cleaver (L8 HOPr), worshipper of Beogh, blasted by a tormentor (nerve-wracking pain) in the Abyss on 2010-01-27, with 1647 points after 6400 turns and 0:41:48. 09:16:28 Sigmund banished him :P 09:19:36 Did someone make changes to the autoexplore and '5' code? 09:19:39 SA: "I am finding extremely out-of-depth monsters lately. Orc Warriors on D:2, Hydras on D:6, Vampires on D:9, etc. I guess I just have bad luck lately." 09:19:52 orc warriors on D:2 are extremely OOD? :P 09:20:03 oh no vampires 09:20:13 hope you can deal with rats and stuff 09:20:14 Apparently he's had to take a break of two weeks to recover, too :P 09:20:29 Cryptic: ? 09:20:46 doy, its not as delayed and such as it was a few versions ago 09:20:53 by fixed it 09:20:55 yeah, by fixed it 09:20:57 ah, cool 09:21:06 hydra on D:6 is OOD? 09:21:14 Very 09:21:15 Zaba_: Yeah, a bit :P 09:21:25 but, just slightly 09:21:31 maybe perhaps 09:21:35 :P 09:21:45 he reached D:9 to see the vampire so it was no problem, it seems 09:21:48 stop farming 09:21:49 d: 09:21:56 Presumably these were different games :P 09:22:08 oh, hm. But he never said that! 09:22:10 I'm guessing he rushed into the embrace of that D:2 orc warrior and couldn't quite recover on subsequent tries 09:22:24 Recover from having his skull bashed in, I mean :) 09:22:39 hehe 09:23:44 Oh hey, no downstairs on Dis:1 and 2 09:23:54 I can confirm this bug :P 09:24:26 so switch to nemelex and make some shafts :P 09:25:02 Has anyone mentioned that your obsession with Nemelex may be verging on the unhealthy? :P 09:25:49 I got over it :P 09:25:52 was that SA person farming, I wonder/ 09:26:17 !lg trucutru 09:26:17 129. trucutru the Charm-Maker (L8 NaCr), worshipper of Okawaru, slain by an orange rat (summoned by a vampire) on D:9 on 2010-01-28, with 1561 points after 9761 turns and 1:02:23. 09:29:13 I think this is just the moderate OOD fuzz in action 09:29:21 -!- Spads has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:29:40 The moderate OOD level fuzz is not on a timer 09:29:45 And these are mild OODs 09:31:16 [c448164974, Mac, Windows] No downstairs on Dis:1 and Dis:2 (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=595) by greensnark 09:31:26 yeah, i don't think those are necessarily out of line 09:31:35 orc warrior on D:2 sounds relatively OOD to me, given that even an ordinary orc would be OOD there, and even around D:4 or D:5 the warbands tend to be orcs, wizards and priests 09:31:37 Actually no downstairs anywhere in Dis, now that I look :P 09:31:48 just Dis? 09:31:50 also, people on sa seem to get all kinds of weird luck 09:31:53 Pretty good idea of Dispaters in defensive terms 09:32:01 doy: I found gold DSM on D:2 once 09:32:02 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 09:32:06 Nobody's going to kill him if they can't get to him :P 09:32:10 so I suspect weird luck happens everywhere 09:32:24 some of the randarts that they paste in that thread are completely ridiculous 09:32:27 (I died that game after being swarmed by uniques, and being swarmed by /more/ uniques after running and/or teleporting) 09:32:28 (: 09:32:52 Apparently Dis has special code to mess with stairs for some reason 09:33:06 really 09:33:10 for what purpose? 09:33:19 I think to reduce the number of stairs 09:33:28 I think Dis always had fewer stone stairs 09:33:31 well, it arguably succeeded in that, just a little too well 09:33:36 Presumably this code is interacting badly with something new 09:33:46 -!- eith has left ##crawl-dev 09:34:09 Yeah, disabling the Dis thingy fixes it 09:34:28 Do we really need to reduce the number of stairs in Dis? 09:34:35 * greensnark is tempted to toss this code 09:34:42 city layout used to generate too many stairs at some time 09:35:23 haha 09:35:24 I think it's because this layout was moved to Lua 09:35:32 And the old layout used to place stairs itself? 09:35:38 In any case, i shall toss this check 09:36:44 Mu_'s Dis map is cool <3 09:37:57 03greensnark * r8279fbb4eaf7 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: [Mantis 595] Fix downstairs missing in Dis. 09:38:01 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 09:51:56 -!- by has quit ["leaving"] 09:58:47 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:55 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 10:00:53 03Keskitalo * r6642393eb262 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Use mons_is_firewood as suggested by Rob. 10:01:26 hey, the /* readStr != null */ 10:02:01 Hmrmh, Fedhasites aren't supposed to come across hostile wandering mushrooms that Fedhas doesn't appreciate killing.. right? 10:02:02 stupid windows c&p crawl.akrasiac.org still links to the downloads of 0.5 not 0.5.2. Is that correct? 10:03:09 Oversight I'm sure. 10:06:12 It probably does, yes. 10:06:12 rax: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 10:06:16 *sigh* 10:06:18 !messages 10:06:18 (1/2) Giomancer said (9h 34m 54s ago): You rock the score list. rax! 10:06:21 !messages 10:06:21 (1/1) Giomancer said (9h 33m 23s ago): ..by that I mean how you updated the score/played summaries to match the tourney output. :D 10:06:26 Oh. :) 10:06:39 !tell Giomancer That was greensnark, really. I only get credit becaue I'm the "manager." :) 10:06:39 rax: OK, I'll let Giomancer know. 10:07:42 !tell rax Update the CAO links to the Windows downloads when you have more time. 10:07:42 rax: OK, I'll let rax know. 10:10:27 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 10:10:45 morning, -dev 10:12:16 Morning, TGWi! 10:12:39 I'm playing spectacularly messy, but it's fun with Fedhas. Only have three fruit left though. 10:14:08 Right, Gastronok. I guess I'll leave Lair:8 be. 10:14:16 or you could kill it 10:14:23 gastronok's not that hard 10:14:23 disgusting buckler 10:14:37 I'm pretty fragile. 10:14:40 gastronok has airstrike 10:14:42 basically 10:15:20 Yeah, the buckler looks nice. I think I'll pick up that sling after all. 10:15:40 I mean, use slings after all. I haven't found a lot of arrows really. 10:18:44 I'm not a big fan of poisonous slings, really. :) 10:18:47 oh my god, henryci <3 10:19:27 is the new overview on cdo? 10:19:44 not yet 10:20:52 Should I run the script? 10:21:38 Hmm, I didn't find the Slime Pits entrance, nor Snake/Shoals, just Swamp in Lair. 10:22:15 it's there somewhere! 10:22:27 sorear: <3 the browsing other levels' maps 10:22:29 maybe lair:8 10:22:29 (: 10:22:34 oh that sounds great 10:23:08 duh, the top line in X shows found stairs <3 10:23:23 L:4 is missing two stairs, so it's suspect! 10:24:26 or can you already browse them? 10:25:13 you can 10:25:15 [/] 10:26:53 Yup :) 10:36:57 -!- Timbermaw has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:39:09 Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2900-g6642393 (16.2) 10:40:45 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 10:41:50 Sniff, only a single banana left. 10:42:16 I suppose Cause Fear is eating up my food. (Not the fruit of course) 10:45:55 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 10:46:33 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [] 10:46:42 -!- Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 10:55:22 !tell greensnark Are sea snakes intentionally not poison resistant? 10:55:22 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 11:11:49 -!- Mu__ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:12:13 -!- Mu_ has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:12:20 -!- Mu__ is now known as Mu_ 11:17:05 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 11:20:05 cheers 11:31:01 -!- scarf has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:33:44 -!- murphy_slaw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:33:47 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 11:34:11 Keskitalo: you can use acquirement on fruits! I also forgot this on my Fedhasite. 11:34:22 Keskitalo: what snakes? 11:37:09 03by * r7aa8b63a47c3 10/crawl-ref/source/macro.cc: Treat CK_MOUSE_CMD as synthetic (tiles). 11:37:12 03by * r2e70fd567797 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Comment on once-per-turn mesclr() in main.cc. 11:37:36 Keskitalo: thanks for CDO update 11:38:09 * dpeg marvels at Ctrl-O :) 11:42:55 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 11:46:12 dpeg: what would you say about the penance being red for gods with unseen altars, and lightred for seen altars? 11:46:48 03kilobyte * r0edf9c3eeb66 10/crawl-ref/ (settings/052_monster_glyphs.txt source/mon-data.h): Make efreets 'R'. 11:46:49 03kilobyte * rf03718878443 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Make elementals 'E', in elemental (duh) colours. 11:47:07 kilobyte: that's an option. However, players may think that red/lightred corresponds to severity of penance. 11:47:17 how do you get penance from an unseen god? 11:47:29 starting with them 11:47:32 orite 11:47:34 We may need a help page for Ctrl-O anyway, at least once we allow modifying of annotations from there. 11:48:27 I am not sure we need to mark the current god. Most players should be able to remember who they follow. 11:48:41 But I believe that indicating penance might be useful. Especially for future Lugonites. 11:49:45 yeah, marking the current god isn't really necessary 11:49:58 sigh, shouting, blurry, frail on my caster character. Hey, these mutations describe *me* quite well :O 11:51:17 i wonder if it'd be worth dropping magic dart's range a bit 11:51:54 Various apportation targeting issues (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=596) by Stathol 11:52:40 -!- Spads has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:52:53 doy: possibly 11:53:30 having it at max range and also auto-hit is pretty powerful 11:53:38 but damage is not 11:53:42 true 11:53:45 re gods on Ctrl-O: I thought it might be useful to also show which gods you can safely switch to 11:54:01 doy: some spells should have max range -- which if not MD? :) 11:54:26 i suppose(: 11:59:25 the only god you can not switch to is Lugonu if she's pissed off at you 11:59:52 "safely" 12:00:17 Keskitalo: Sea snakes not having PR is intentional 12:00:17 greensnark: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 12:00:27 switching between the good gods, from ely to a non-evil god, etc 12:01:05 doy: yes 12:01:16 it might be best to leave all this additional information for now 12:01:21 from Ctrl-O 12:01:26 yeah 12:01:33 and think about it (and players will have ideas) and then do it later 12:01:43 speaking of easy interface improvements 12:02:03 there was a suggestion to make ac/ev/sh/str/int/dex be 2x3 rather than 3x2 12:02:16 Two things I really want for 0.6: mention where branches are, e.g.: Temple: D:4-7. And distinguish between accessible and inaccessible altars. 12:02:18 which would save a line for the monster list 12:02:49 yes, I made a mock-up 12:02:51 not sure it looks good 12:02:56 it's so damn cramped 12:03:10 accessible/inaccessible altars is hard, we discussed it last night 12:03:14 One letter god names! :D 12:03:45 It will also be a good memory test for the player to figure out who "S" and "M" are 12:05:38 doy: can it be done eventually? 12:05:39 we currently fake a lot of pathfinding stuff for interlevel travel 12:05:48 Can ship 0.6 without it, of course. 12:05:58 "Fake" for interlevel travel? :P 12:05:58 But listing branch depths would be good. 12:06:08 Missed a volcano :( 12:06:14 Interlevel travel does not fake pathfinding :P 12:06:24 Stupid 2$ยง"$%%" timed portal vaults! 12:06:27 greensnark: does it actually pick the shortest paths, including staircases? 12:06:31 dpeg: Be faaaster :P 12:06:34 doy: It does 12:06:35 doy: I totally suggested that 12:06:50 dpeg: can I see that? 12:06:52 i was under the impression that it just picked "closest level" first, and then figured it out from there 12:06:58 No 12:07:19 Travel cache knows the positions of all stairs on all levels, distances between them, and their destinations 12:07:27 hmmm 12:07:34 When traveling to an arbitrary point on another level, travel loads the remote level and pathfinds on that map 12:07:50 well, maybe this wouldn't be as hard then 12:08:01 it'd be nice to be able to cache pathfinds on other levels 12:08:13 Yes, dpeg and I talked about that earlier today 12:08:19 I think you were also discussing it in scrollback 12:08:22 yeah 12:08:39 Overhead would be around 60k per level, but it could be kept in a sqlite db 12:08:50 60k, really? 12:09:04 for what? 12:09:15 6 staircases per 80x70 level, 2 bytes per square 12:09:16 pornographic material 12:09:32 oh right, you'd need a cache for each staircase 12:09:51 that sounds about right then 12:09:54 well 12:10:00 yeah, i guess so 12:10:16 60k isn't much, just that all the levels' info can't be kept in memory all the time 12:10:28 A little sqlite db should cover storage trivially though 12:10:31 right 12:18:14 uhm... just got an escape hatch in the Abyss 12:18:37 heh 12:19:29 kilobyte: dare to use it? :) 12:19:35 Use it! 12:19:40 do it after I start watching 12:19:52 local wizmode, sorry 12:20:00 aw 12:20:09 well, use it then! 12:20:37 it led to the dungeon 12:21:15 hah 12:21:44 there are normal stairs, too... and an overflow temple altar was placed there too 12:22:03 Who has been abusing the Abyss as a living room? 12:22:07 And I don't mean Lugonu. 12:22:54 I abyssed myself via &B from D:6, and D:6 is listed on &: as the level for that overflow altar 12:24:11 upstairs lead to the same Abyss level 12:24:53 someone should rewrite the abyss code one of these days 12:25:14 The overflow temple code is not checking if the player is in the Abyss 12:25:31 what about the staircases? 12:25:39 It's using you.where_are_you == BRANCH_MAIN_DUNGEON instead of player_in_branch(BRANCH_MAIN_DUNGEON) 12:26:15 The staircases are also presumably something that's wrongly activating in the Abyss 12:26:29 It definitely did not happen in earlier versions :) 12:27:23 yes 12:27:46 _dgn_verify_connectivity doesn't seem to check for non LEVEL_DUNGEON before applying fixups 12:28:15 is where_are_you == whatever always wrong? 12:28:41 It's wrong if the level_type != LEVEL_DUNGEON 12:29:01 Well, it's not blanket wrong 12:29:11 But it's the wrong way to test if the player is in D:* 12:29:41 It's used to determine the return point in the dungeon when the player comes back from their Abyss/Pan/portal vault excursion 12:29:54 greensnark: well, that test is used quite a few times in the code 12:30:11 grep for 'where_are_you == BRANCH_MAIN_DUNGEON' 12:30:34 Yes, but those places also check level_type 12:30:41 ah 12:30:52 Using player_in_branch is better practice 12:33:04 oh, if I see a Mantis item with 25 replies, I never feel like opening it 12:33:13 (: 12:33:15 On SF, it always was a surprise. 12:33:35 -!- Eifel has joined ##crawl-dev 12:39:57 Did anyone here read my Armour training proposal? The one with numbers... 12:41:19 Link? 12:41:44 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:armour_training 12:42:09 It's bigger, better and more improved! 12:43:14 But is it finally too much for Mr Incredible? 12:43:26 Sorry, watched the movie again a few days back :P 12:43:40 * dpeg opposes movies. 12:43:52 The Incredibles is made of awesome though :P 12:44:24 * greensnark <3 Brad Bird and Pete Docter 12:44:24 it's okay, Pixar is overrated :P 12:44:39 * greensnark smacks syllogism with a trout. 12:44:53 no clout, no trout 12:46:08 dpeg: In this page, when you say "raw damage", do you mean "max potential damage"? 12:46:13 no 12:46:29 what the monster came up with this turn 12:46:38 How is "raw damage" different from "damage evaded"? 12:46:50 Or how is raw damage != damage blocked 12:46:51 It's a proposal! 12:47:05 By someone w/o clue or trout! 12:47:29 But the description suggests that raw damage is different from damage evaded :) 12:47:45 no, these are the same 12:47:45 And until I understand what it means, I can't understand the proposal :) 12:47:58 You only train Armour if you block an attack with raw damage > Armour skill; if so, the chance is 12:48:01 (damage blocked) / (Armour skill + 1) * 100 12:48:06 yes 12:48:15 Wouldnt that mean that the chance to train is always 0.5 12:48:27 If raw_damage = damage_blocked, and raw_damage > armour skill 12:48:35 the *100 is /100 12:48:46 (damage blocked) / (Armour skill + 1) * 100 12:48:53 (damage blocked) / ((Armour skill + 1) * 100) 12:48:57 Ah 12:49:11 :) 12:49:16 conventions 12:49:32 Well, in C x / y * z = (x / y) * z :P 12:50:37 well, I can't think of any place where that's not the case 12:50:42 is this still active training 12:50:51 yes, but a mathematician would have understood 12:50:53 even on dumb calculators with no operator precedence you'll still get left-to-right 12:51:03 wouldn't this just lead to different kind of victory dancing and possibly make normal training very slow 12:51:13 otherwise I'd have written 100 * a / b 12:51:24 It looks like this might make early game training quite slow 12:51:32 yes, the 100 may be too much 12:51:36 Let's assume most monsters on the first two levels average 5 damage 12:51:45 And you start with 3 levels of dodging 12:52:02 That's just 1% chance of training EV per hit 12:52:08 chance would be 1%-2%, yes 12:52:16 but the old one isn't much highe 12:52:17 r 12:52:21 No matter what the numbers are, I don't see how it makes "normal" training better, especially Dodging 12:52:30 dodging trains very fast if you keep xp in pool 12:52:36 syllogism: because you cannot scum for small damages anymore 12:52:47 which is an issue with Armour 12:52:57 but then you just scum with large damages, like a slug 12:53:00 Current dodging chance is 1/3 in melee 12:53:02 @?? elephant slug 12:53:03 elephant slug (15j) | Speed: 4 | HD: 20 | Health: 100-160 | AC/EV: 2/1 | Damage: 40 | Res: 06magic(80) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 903. 12:53:15 1/3 -> 1/100 is rather drastic 12:53:23 and you'll have to get the numbers exactly right for normal training not to suffer 12:53:24 syllogism: I am not sure the "just" applies 12:53:32 Unless I'm misunderstanding some part of the proposal 12:53:32 greensnark: yes, the 100 can be changed 12:53:55 and in the late game it will be 1/100 of biggest attacks 12:54:21 there is also no reason that Armour and Dodging need to have the same number 12:54:23 the problem is, players have to have xp in pool 12:54:42 Maybe the constant 'c' should be 3 in dam/(c * (A/D+1)) 12:54:48 I just came up with something for Armour which I understood and used something similar for Dodging, for consistency. 12:54:55 Or something in that neighbourhood 12:55:13 greensnark: sure, why not? 12:55:25 anything that decreases the odds of training armour/dodging is going to penalize players who train them "properly" 12:55:29 even most '1'-class demons do less than 27 damage per hit -- they tend to have several attacks, though. 12:55:32 even if you make it train more at once 12:55:33 For Armour, that should make training much faster, but I don't have any problems with it. 12:56:44 My main point is that training Armour when you get *hit* is backwards. Instead, we should make sure that the potential needed to train increases with skill. 12:57:34 Armour training prob was 0.325 in melee wearing plate 12:57:35 03j-p-e-g * r8b27969cab1c 10/crawl-ref/source/xom.cc: Suppress debugging messages when creating Xom debugging stats file. 12:57:38 03j-p-e-g * rd9fc35730667 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/database/godspeak.txt xom.cc xom.h): Apply patch by Cryptic: New Xom effect "Snakes to sticks". 12:58:08 also what about shield users 12:58:20 fiend: 25/15/15, ice fiend: 25(cold)/25(cold), shadow fiend: 25(drain)/25(drain)/25(drain), pit fiend: ***28***/21/21, executioner: ***30***/10/10, gree death: ***32***, blue death: 20/20, balrug: 25(fire), cacodemon: 22 12:58:21 syllogism: don't ask so many questions, propose something! 12:58:24 Shield training is presumably unchanged? 12:58:27 yes 12:58:30 Ok 12:58:36 shield leeches all the xp 12:58:56 syllogism: I think the constant factor is negotiable here, not a hard 100 :) 12:59:14 syllogism seems to have troubles with the concept of "in progress". 12:59:20 syllogism: weapon skill is what leeches most, shield takes less than that (but indeed a lot) 12:59:22 What I need to do is run a test to see the training curves with the old and new numbers 12:59:35 I am not in a position to propose a finished design when it comes to AC or combat. 12:59:42 dpeg: huh, not at all 12:59:47 good 12:59:50 perhaps we can plant some debug code into CDO? 12:59:58 collect the stats 13:00:05 Marc is not here. :| 13:00:12 That would rock 13:00:32 I also want to run automated tests 13:00:49 Should be a simple matter to force-move the player from D:1 to D:27 and fake combat rounds against all the monsters en route 13:01:18 If I get time this weekend 13:01:27 everyone these days seems to have access to triggering a CDO rebuild, including due who's here religiously midnight-14-15:00 13:02:18 greensnark: you don't have the player wearing realistic armour and having level-appropiate skills 13:02:34 or realistic xp pool 13:02:43 That's try 13:02:45 *true 13:02:50 But comparing the curves will still be useful 13:03:25 syllogism: we will change the xp pool model for 0.7, at least there is a plan to do so. 13:04:08 that would be good, but it's also a really difficult task 13:05:37 dpeg: the previous xp pool experiment taught us we have to heed both skills which you use rarely, mostly out of combat or before melee, and melee skills which trigger training orders of magnitude more often 13:05:59 kilobyte: yes 13:06:12 and it could easily just lead to victory dancing during combat 13:06:32 because weapon skill/fighting/armour/dodging/shields drowned out all other stuff, like stealth, T&D or magic 13:06:37 kilobyte: yes 13:07:01 we need separate slots, like with Nemelex deck types 13:07:31 The pool would have different slots, you mean? 13:07:46 yes 13:07:53 Interesting idea 13:07:59 oh that sounds better 13:08:33 unless you're a pure conjurator, you cast a spell or two and then engage in melee. But the spells will be cast with full exp pool, while the first couple of blows will drain the pool, making the other 98 melee skill trains moot. 13:09:35 with slots, what should happen if you DON'T use magic? Would that exp be lost? 13:10:08 Slots could slowly leak into each other or similar 13:10:16 No matter what we do, it will be much more fuzzy. Currently, the player can optimise skill training. I think that tradeoff is worth is. We would lose the damn Pool number, after all. 13:10:31 There may be different mental models of "slots" :) 13:10:37 training, say, T&D, is an investment that deprives you of a bit of other skills 13:11:13 how would something like dig be trained 13:11:19 well 13:11:21 so earth? 13:11:23 if that's the only spell you want to use 13:12:05 So when are we branching 0.6? 13:12:15 When is 0.6 out? :) 13:12:21 greensnark: there are too many bugs that need fixing IMO 13:12:26 * greensnark will come back later for 0.7 discussions 13:12:50 Certainly bugfixes, but what features are we waiting on now beyond skill training? 13:13:02 greensnark: if you want to code a feature that badly, you can always make _that_ a branch. We can even have a branch for new small stuff. 13:13:07 jiyva maybe 13:13:12 This is not a discussion for now, but: opening up skills should be boosted (so that players get the option of turning them on/off). So using Diging normally should open up Earth not too far away. And the system should perhaps put more emphasis on your m selection. So that if Earth is the only active skill, you can train Earth reasonably even with just using Dig (in a non-scummy way). 13:13:12 and che 13:13:26 greensnark: see 0.6 page =) 13:13:47 !seen by 13:13:47 I last saw by at Thu Jan 28 15:51:56 2010 UTC (3h 21m 51s ago) quitting with message "leaving". 13:13:59 I also think that branching the 0.6 branch is pretty important if only for the message it conveys 13:14:09 Bugfixes can be applied to 0.6 and merged into master in most cases 13:14:16 by promised coding some dubious Cb features for me, which I hope will make the god useful :) 13:14:37 we'd have to do 9867987249 cherry-picks which will tend to conflict 13:14:38 About J, I honestly don't know. I am against kicking J from 0.6. 13:14:48 kilobyte: We can just merge, right? 13:14:57 Once 0.6 is branched, only bugfixes should go there 13:15:03 So bugfix in 0.6 and merge into master 13:15:05 yes, if it works like merging branches, it doesn't seem too bad 13:15:12 Granted, it'll be a little extra hassle 13:15:24 But not branching tends to mean not stabilising 13:15:36 We have a little problem with eternal-dev-mode :) 13:15:41 greensnark: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:testing_and_polish_needed_for_0.6_release 13:15:49 dpeg: Yes, found it again 13:16:06 yeah, but most problems right now are features that are not yet fully coded 13:16:09 greensnark: I am trying to push 0.6 for quite some time. It's not easy, I am probabyl doing it wrong. 13:16:09 ballistos seemed fine to me 13:16:10 not mere bugfixes 13:16:20 Oh yes, the new amulets also need work 13:16:24 Let me add that to the page 13:16:28 thank you 13:16:47 kilobyte: Right, we can't really branch until we're feature complete, I just want to push for that :) 13:17:31 DS still postponed? 13:17:33 the page says that Ctrl-O is complete, and it's definitely not there yet 13:17:35 the two messages bit are trivial 13:17:38 syllogism: yes 13:17:44 kilobyte: what is wrong? 13:17:48 Ctrl-O can go in as is 13:18:13 henrici said this is only part of the patch 13:18:23 kilobyte: there is one piece missing, yes. 13:18:35 But it will probably come soon and it's not a major obstacle anyway. 13:19:01 Haran's targeting also needs some polish. Everything does. 13:19:32 We can postpone the Armour training but that does leave some bad taste. 13:20:30 I made a submerger proposal which is very concrete. Given the other changes to water monsters and to Swamp, that should go in, imo. 13:21:11 the submerging proposal is _perfect_ as written 13:21:27 So all that the submerging proposal needs is implementation? 13:21:58 kilobyte: hey 13:22:02 greensnark: I think so, yes. 13:22:15 due said that he'd do it, but he a full plate... 13:22:38 I think ballistos are fine, can we move that to nice to have 13:22:49 yes, we can 13:22:51 It's hardly critical 13:23:15 now that swamp worms and such don't get the damage boost, their damage should be increased 13:23:27 unless you scum heavily, it's hard to get a level completely overrun by ballistos 13:23:41 and you can't scum really now 13:23:48 yes, good changes 13:23:54 syllogism: gotta file it 13:24:11 I don't think anyone will change swamp monsters on short notice. 13:24:32 swamp worms are currently pure annoyance, zero risk 13:24:52 well I kind of assumed it was discussed when the damage bonus was removed 13:24:52 Also, I don't think we need to hurry. There's still three days left in January. 13:25:04 syllogism: not really, afair. 13:25:09 There's no deadline killing us, definitely :) 13:25:20 kilobyte: I guess they could be even removed. 13:25:26 the submerging thingy will be major for swamp worms, though 13:25:31 jellies are even worse really 13:25:37 syllogism: jellies do somethign 13:25:41 what do they do :P 13:25:41 since they are annoying _because_ they submerge 13:25:44 slurp 13:25:44 err 13:25:44 dpeg: What's our release target? :P 13:25:45 not jelly 13:25:47 jelly fish 13:26:00 oh, fish needs to be reviewed, I'd do that for 0.7 13:26:08 dpeg: Pick a date! 13:26:13 or whatever they are called :P 13:26:15 greensnark: March 1 13:26:22 Ok, March 1 it is :) 13:26:25 jellyfish* 13:26:25 I'm adding that to the wiki :P 13:26:39 We will see how much some monsters become superflous, and I'd be nice to start the 0.7 changelog with "Removed 12 monsters." 13:26:43 jellyfish are poisonous, that's something that puts them apart from the rest 13:26:50 @?? jellyfish 13:26:50 jellyfish (10J) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 104(poison, drain strength), 1 | Res: 06magic(16), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 60. 13:26:58 _1_??? 13:27:10 also they never really drain str 13:27:21 they might be a threat on d1 13:27:26 hehe 13:29:26 Let's replace plain jellyfish with Portuguese men'o'war 13:30:21 and pirate ships fighting them! 13:30:40 disguised as 'corsairs' to avoid Mr. Ploog 13:30:52 Ok, March 1 2010 is our official release target date 13:30:57 Let's rock March :) 13:31:33 -!- dpeg is now known as dpirate 13:32:26 I wonder how hard it will be to get insult fighting into Crawl 13:32:40 You fight like a sheep 13:32:46 Hehe 13:33:05 imp speech! 13:33:13 Murray! 13:33:25 I haven't seen murray in years :P 13:33:45 You haven't entered the Vestibule in years :P 13:34:26 To be honest, I haven't seen him in a long time either. 13:34:37 He's very rare, yeah 13:35:04 !lm * uniq=Murray s=v 13:35:04 128 milestones for * (uniq=Murray): 25x 0.3.4, 23x 0.5.1, 16x 0.4.4, 14x 0.4.5, 11x 0.5, 9x 0.2.4, 9x 0.2.7, 8x 0.5.2, 5x 0.3.3, 3x 0.4.1, 1x 0.4, 1x 0.4.3, 1x 0.6.0-a1, 1x 0.2.5, 1x 0.3.2 13:35:11 greensnark: nice page 13:35:15 he should get blink_closer so he can bite 13:35:20 !lm * uniq=Murray v=0.6.0-a1 13:35:20 1. [2009-11-20] Ahrin the Heavyweight Champion (L27 TrMo) killed Murray on turn 151258. (Hell) 13:35:21 I wonder how many persons will spot the March 1 there :) 13:35:34 Oh, it'll be noticed :P 13:35:48 !lm * uniq=murray s=cv 13:35:52 128 milestones for * (uniq=murray): 42x 0.5, 35x 0.4, 31x 0.3, 19x 0.2, 1x 0.6 13:36:18 november may be before the unique changes 13:37:37 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 13:38:34 Dec 7 13:39:23 I wonder how many of those 0.5 kills were during the tournament 13:40:18 can unique vaults be ever placed on existing vaults? I don't think so. 13:40:48 Since the Vestibule is an encompass vault, this means no uniques there, and that means no Murray, ever. 13:42:03 kilobyte: good point! 13:43:40 Yes, that's a good point 13:44:04 -!- B0RG1N has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44:05 We should make a vault type that can be placed freely on top of existing vaults 13:44:24 yes 13:44:29 Can someone file a bug for unique vaults? 13:44:31 -!- B0RG1N has quit [Client Quit] 13:44:34 will do 13:44:36 new swamp looks great <3 13:44:39 Thanks, night :) 13:44:43 night! 13:45:12 do the monster plant/tree/glass related pathfinding issues still remain? 13:45:40 oh wait I did see something chewing a plant earlier 13:47:24 Unique placement buggy (no Murrays) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=597) by dpeg 13:48:39 syllogism: greensnark made the Lernaean able to smash trees on its way 13:49:02 but that fixes pathfinding only on this particular case 13:49:04 just the lernaean? Also is it actually generated somewhere 13:50:56 yes 13:52:05 I <3 the new spore ASCII chars 13:52:07 er, glyphs 13:59:00 doy: thanks for going through the lists 13:59:31 syllogism: ballistos are usually okay, but can every once in a while explode into something that's completely impossible to get rid of 13:59:36 this is not really acceptable 14:00:04 it basically means "you can never come back to this level, ever" 14:00:16 doy: Charles added the trails. 14:00:26 And reduced chances, I think. 14:00:44 i'd be okay with just reducing chances of spores spawning ballistos while moving by a large amount 14:00:53 but it'd have to be really large 14:01:11 and i don't see what's wrong with my proposal for it, anyway 14:01:28 what if we ditched a lot of the generation potential, period, and had more ballistos be something more like "spores actively seek you out to a greater degree rather than wandering" 14:01:46 Eronarn: don't think we need to fundamentally change how things work at this point 14:02:34 i mean, my changes are really simple, and from what i've seen, would solve all of the major issues 14:02:44 I doubt you can really sit on a level long enough for ballistos to be impossible to get rid of, current OODs if you wait are murder 14:02:48 doy: nothing's wrong, but Charles codes it :) 14:02:48 doy: i am thinking more in terms of how to keep the current behavior (both ballistos and spores shouldn't be left unattended) without exponential grwoth 14:03:16 doy: and if the current change does not work out, it's your one, naturally. 14:03:19 kilobyte: it happened to me in my last game 14:03:39 the trouble is that you have no idea where all of the spores are 14:03:49 and they're just wandering around creating more ballistos all over the level 14:03:56 and the ballistos just keep making more spores 14:04:18 doy: Talk to pointless! Take it to email, if you want. 14:04:23 okay 14:04:37 i'd do it myself, but kinda short on time lately 14:04:47 But I trust him that he has a firm understanding of the issue. He has been acting very responsibly when it came to Fedhas. 14:04:48 if the release isn't going to be until march, i could try to do it next week sometime 14:05:08 doy: ...T.A.L.K... :) 14:05:09 i'll talk to him though 14:05:11 d: 14:05:51 doy: If you simply coded your proposal, I'd absolutely understand Charles if he'd drop out.- 14:06:46 Also, if we think some idea could have been used, but didn't do it, then make a wiki for it. I'll do that with the Fedhas targeting. 14:07:56 -!- dpirate has quit ["Milk!"] 14:08:54 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 14:09:11 hi 14:09:17 hey 14:21:57 our first bug report! 14:22:34 Movement speed has gotten erratic somehow. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=598) by Kyrris 14:22:39 hah 14:22:41 haha 14:22:44 kyrris <3 14:22:45 -!- murphy_slaw_ is now known as murphy_slaw 14:23:09 is that intentional behaviour? 14:23:31 yes, it's an experiment 14:24:04 i think it's a pretty big improvement, but there has been a good amount of uproar 14:24:23 that's the first I've heard of it, but my first thought is that it sucks 14:24:53 my thought is that if a character requires pillar dancing, that character is broken, and should be fixed in other ways 14:24:54 03by * r9b8f13119088 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Fix blank message when large rock shatters in view. 14:25:00 shrug, we'll see 14:25:39 did someone ever open a wiki page for it? 14:27:20 doy: not that I know of 14:27:29 should probably do that 14:27:37 close the bug with a link to the wiki page 14:27:42 "feedback welcome" 14:28:20 all characters require pillar dancing 14:28:23 sometimes 14:28:28 not really true 14:28:37 and this doesn't make pillar dancing impossible either 14:28:38 unless you want to die 14:28:41 is anybody looking into why Dis doesn't seem to be generating downward staircases? 14:28:41 true 14:28:47 Mu_: already fixed 14:29:02 i just pulled and recompiled 14:29:07 hmmm 14:29:31 got two upstairs and an uphatch on I:1 14:29:33 8279fbb4e should have fixed it 14:31:17 ah i just realised i'm still working in the wizlab branch, it probably is fixed 14:31:38 in any case, yeah, the chances of extra/skipped turns are pretty small 14:31:49 the intention was just to make pillar dancing and kiting not guaranteed safe 14:32:24 the frequencies can still be adjusted, this was just the simplest possible change that seemed somewhat reasonable 14:35:33 well, early on you have to pillar dance forever to recover health, meaning with this change there's a good chance you'll just get hit again 14:35:54 if the guy in that bug report had it happen twice in 30 turns 14:36:09 there's also a good chance that you'll get an extra space in between you and the monster 14:36:27 the "twice in 30 turns" thing was one getting an extra turn and one losing a turn 14:36:35 which isn't unreasonable 14:36:47 it'd be unreasonable if he lost two turns out of 30 14:38:05 but there was a still a good chance of that happening 14:38:11 unless it's more likely to gain a turn than lose one 14:38:12 no, there wasn't 14:38:22 because of the way that energy works 14:38:52 the chances of gaining a turn after it already gained one are dropped significantly 14:38:59 it's not independent chances every turn 14:39:16 is there a description of this whole thing somewhere? 14:39:18 pretty sure it wouldn't actually even be possible for 8 turns or so 14:39:22 i'm writing one up now 14:39:26 k 14:39:44 stabwound: it's basically add +0,-1,1 each turn, starting at 0, and each time you pass a multiple of 10, you gain or lose a turn based on the direction 14:40:16 it's quite unlikely to ever reach +10 or -10 14:40:50 so if it's at +10 it still has to go to -10 to lose a turn? 14:41:09 not just to 0 14:41:24 yes, except I'm sure the player used that turn for something 14:41:26 no, going from +10 to +11 gains a turn, going from +11 to +10 loses a turn 14:41:38 to gain two turns, you'd have to go from +10 to +20 14:41:45 which is quite unlikely 14:42:25 (it's not exactly like this, but that's the general idea) 14:48:59 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 14:51:58 to be honest I didn't even notice it last game 14:52:09 but I was a spellcaster so 14:52:43 i notice it if i'm actually watching for it, but it hasn't affected any of my games so far 14:57:43 Baby alligator flesh? (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=599) by Stathol 15:01:14 it's going to be unnoticeable right up until you die from it 15:01:25 and then it's going to be irritating as hell 15:01:36 because it's already too easy to lose characters you thought weren't in danger at that moment 15:07:08 03by * r8775cc39d488 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Fix inverted logic in previous large rock commit. 15:12:24 http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=598 15:12:52 I've added a message what feedback would be useful, looks good/bad? 15:14:14 i'm writing up a wiki page with an explanation of the monster speed system (as best as i can understand it) at the moment 15:14:19 i'll link to it once i'm done 15:16:18 march 1! 15:17:07 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [] 15:17:12 serkitis and clarity mutations should be exclusive 15:19:18 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:56 -!- Turbo has joined ##crawl-dev 15:22:07 What's the make command for tiles? 15:22:42 make TILES=y 15:22:52 (or make debug TILES=y) 15:23:16 by, hrm, that's what I thought. Anything else special I have to do when running? 15:23:31 not for me 15:23:40 hrm, maybe the case matters 15:23:57 yes 15:24:41 * Keskitalo dances a little "we have a date" dance 15:24:54 alright, commented 15:27:39 greensnark, sorear, by, other people who have some actual familiarity with the monster speed system, please edit my explanation so that it's actually true, i just described my understanding of it, which might not actually be how it works 15:27:47 doy: Thanks! 15:27:47 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:speed_randomization 15:33:25 I added that bit on what sort of feedback (non-speculative) is sought for. Should I delete the "Preferably"? :) 15:33:46 (that one word) 15:36:19 yes 15:36:44 by: was my technical explanation correct? 15:37:25 doy: I think that typically a monster gets just 10 energy per turn 15:37:55 so it would start at 70, get +10, then use those 10 and end at 70 15:37:55 by: i got the '80 energy required to move' thing from greensnark last night 15:38:02 ah, okay 15:38:25 it's really weird, lots of magic numbers in there 15:38:37 yeah 15:41:08 Keskitalo: i took care of the 'preferably' 15:48:37 -!- by has quit ["sleep"] 15:50:05 doy: Thanks again! 15:58:03 shouldn't leveling up produce at least one --more--? 15:58:16 doesn't it? 15:58:20 maybe not three, but come on 15:58:59 i mean, personally, i'd say no, you can add a force_more setting if you really want it (and this should probably be in the default config) 16:00:30 i didn't like the massive removal of the --more-- prompt, but that might be just me 16:00:40 "massive removal"? 16:00:59 well in .5 you'd need to hit even while changing armor 16:01:13 you liked that? 16:01:13 d: 16:01:32 does crawl have anything forced more without an option? 16:01:33 heh yeah.. .6 goes too fast with the messages i think 16:04:08 too fast how? 16:04:20 "it doesn't randomly make you press space every few turns"? 16:05:03 yeah. i kinda liked that. taking stuff slow, reading what happened in that time 16:05:38 now it's like if you missed it, it was not really important 16:05:43 keep going 16:06:16 you could just not press the keys as quickly d: 16:06:33 we need a new option 16:06:51 # excruciatingly_slow_multiturn_actions = true 16:06:57 (: 16:07:01 \o/ 16:07:22 i'd like that yeah 16:07:27 serious :p 16:07:27 timbermaw: until then, force_more_message = (a|e|i|o|u) 16:08:01 x[ okay 16:08:32 disclaimer: it will take three hours to play D:1 16:08:43 hmm, I should register morerobin 16:09:34 naw, just make it like it was in .5 16:09:43 most people are used to it i think 16:09:51 most people hate it, actually 16:10:13 ok, a small minority liked it 16:10:20 no I think it was just you 16:10:33 i'm being repressed 16:11:57 well still, # 0.52_message_speed would allow more customization and 16:12:01 shouldn't be hard to do 16:12:10 (do not know) 16:12:16 the issue isn't "message speed" 16:12:21 that doesn't actually make any sense 16:12:32 hmm 16:12:39 the issue is that the messages we're displaying now are much less verbose 16:12:50 and so they don't require the message area to scroll as often 16:13:05 and the message area scrolling is what triggers the more prompts 16:13:24 right, if there was less lines sure 16:13:42 but take armor changing for instance, it filles the hud twice and no more prompts 16:13:44 you can reduce the number of lines in your message area already 16:13:54 it fills the hud twice? 16:14:26 ya, when i play locally at least, it has the same changing armor messages from 0.52, but just no prompts 16:14:31 oh, well 16:14:42 that just means you need to update your local copy 16:14:50 that was fixed quite a while ago 16:15:17 okay, but i did.. maybe the windows version was not updated with that then 16:15:27 last i played was the one from 26 16:16:30 (Last updated 2010-01-27, 0.6.0-a1-2875-g3051ff2) 16:16:35 that's what's on the site now 16:16:57 right, but you said it was changed a long time ago 16:17:05 i'll download it and take a look anyway 16:17:49 it was fixed sometime on the 26th 16:18:00 which is a long time ago d: 16:18:12 hah ok 16:18:39 "fixed" you mean you were planning to reduce the messages a long time ago? 16:19:15 "fixed" meaning that filling up the message window should produce a --more-- prompt again 16:19:29 (it's now a + on the bottom left of the screen, but same effect) 16:19:52 messages for putting on armour have now also been changed though 16:19:55 oh cool 16:20:04 so you just get "You continue wearing your armour. x8" 16:20:09 rather than 8 separate lines 16:20:24 alright 16:23:10 looks much better indeed 16:24:46 also, while we're at it, when i play online the monster HP is displayed as a big square beside their name, changing from green to red, etc. But when i play local the big square is just a little _ 16:25:14 how can i change that? 16:29:46 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 16:30:11 Cryp 16:31:24 -!- Cryp71c has quit ["Bye"] 16:34:20 okawaru should change from a blood god to take sacrifices of warriors 16:34:38 that was part of an old FR but it's independently cool 16:34:42 -!- cryptic__ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:37:09 -!- Cryptic has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:37:28 -!- cryptic__ has quit [Nick collision(old)] 16:37:48 -!- cryptic has joined ##crawl-dev 16:38:02 -!- cryptic has left ##crawl-dev 16:48:37 hrm 16:49:01 jpeg is of the opinion that demonspawn, noise, and divinations stuff needs to be finished for 0.6 16:50:56 div? wat 16:51:08 I'm doing fine without it 16:51:11 right 16:51:29 the idea was that those things aren't in a particularly broken state at the moment 16:51:34 I'd actually rather it go away for a while 16:51:38 even if we do intend on doing more with them in the future 16:51:48 if DS isn't finished for 0.6 release, what version is in? 16:52:00 new system, unfinished mutations or the 0.5 way? 16:52:08 new system, unfinished mutations 16:52:53 but by "unfinished mutations" that actually means "the mutations that existed in 0.5" for the most part, which i don't think is a particularly broken set 16:53:02 noise does seem pretty important to me though 16:53:15 shrug, i haven't noticed issues with it 16:53:20 haven't played any stabbers lately though 16:53:52 right 16:53:59 I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it needs testing 16:54:34 is there a complete list of noise changes somewhere? 16:54:43 no idea 16:54:50 i don't think very many went in 16:54:58 dolorous was working on it i think? 16:56:06 is implicit butchery hard enough to demote from "nice to have?" 16:56:20 yeah 16:56:25 ok 16:56:39 i mean, if someone came up with a patch for it, we might consider it 16:56:47 but it would be a decent amount of work 16:57:30 it really shouldn't be hard to do the new DS muts for .6 16:57:49 well, we've been kinda waiting on sorear 16:57:53 and he's been busy lately 16:58:06 it might be feasible if someone else wanted to take it up 16:58:12 i don't actually know 16:58:12 hi 16:58:28 hey 17:00:11 due: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:speed_randomization 17:00:41 Danke! 17:00:51 Did I miss any further rargh? 17:01:04 just http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=598 17:01:10 but nothing serious 17:09:25 I was going to do the elemental change this morning, oh well :) 17:17:20 Woah. Now that's a change worth playtesting 17:17:33 Ihaven't noticed it while playing, to be honest. 17:17:42 Down with pillar dancing, the silent farming! 17:18:00 It's not that major? 17:18:19 Monsters attempt to fire through trees (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=600) by minmay 17:18:42 * Siber flexes his rhetoric emptily 17:19:40 It's not particularlynoticeable, I've found.. 17:20:36 I'll have to playtest and see for myself. Now that STO beta is over, I need to find a new(or in this case old) way to set fire to my free time again 17:25:23 Oh well, I'm off to hide offline. 17:38:33 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 17:42:04 -!- Giomancer has joined ##Crawl-Dev 17:57:46 -!- Eifel has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:57:46 -!- MarvinPA has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:57:46 -!- Gretell has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:59:18 STO? 17:59:44 -!- nrook_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:01:34 -!- nrook has quit ["Reconnecting"] 18:04:46 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 18:10:53 -!- hashc has joined ##crawl-dev 18:12:22 -!- Giomancer has quit ["Don't push the red button!"] 18:15:40 -!- Mu_ has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."] 18:18:39 -!- nrook_ has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:33 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:49:39 hm, a sleeping shapeshifter shifted 18:50:06 they do this 18:51:29 i was amused 18:56:32 Well, I just stair danced an ogre and used the slow weapon trick withotu issue. 18:59:06 I'm trying to figure out how to implement the random energy in a way that only affects non-player-speed monsters 19:00:02 (because speed 9 monsters will never get two turns and speed 11 monsters will never lose turns even with the +/- 1, if I'm understanding this right) 19:00:12 (but speed 10 monsters get both and that's theoretically screwy) 19:00:20 it's energy 19:00:22 not speed 19:00:30 doesn't energy gain work on speed? 19:00:31 monsters get 10 energy per turn 19:00:49 occasionally they will get 9 or 11. 19:00:50 I thought it was energy equal to speed times ticks... maybe I need to read that again 19:14:12 -!- murphy_slaw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:23:20 -!- hashc has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:24:24 -!- murphy_slaw_ has quit [] 19:24:44 -!- murphy_slaw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:28:48 monster get the same energy per turn? so what's the difference between one with 12 and one with 10 speed? 19:29:43 Energy != speed. 19:30:03 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:03 -!- murphy_slaw_ is now known as murphy_slaw 19:34:12 ??edmund 19:34:13 edmund[1/1]: He's a fighter, normally with some armour and a decent weapon. He can be dangerous at low levels. 19:52:09 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [] 19:55:12 what are you waiting on me for? (*not* reading 100 screenfuls of scrollback) 19:55:20 lastlog! 19:56:16 05:26 <+greensnark> sorear would know 19:56:18 14:57 <+doy> well, we've been kinda waiting on sorear 19:56:35 lastlog not so helpful 19:56:50 -!- Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:58:06 eringya's surprising bouquet? 19:58:49 they were talking about new demonspawn mutations 20:51:33 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 20:56:28 g - a cursed -2 ring of dexterity 1 gold 20:56:32 it's lightgrey 20:58:26 We really should make Sif's channeling not use invocations 20:58:36 And we should probably make selective amnesia a higher-up gift 20:58:41 Like *** or so. 21:06:00 or replace it with something actually interesting 21:06:07 I'm talking about for 0.6 21:20:15 nobody implement the fulsome distillation interface fix in the next five minutes 21:20:45 isn't it already done? 21:20:50 it is? damn 21:22:39 -!- SiberSchool has joined ##crawl-dev 21:23:32 no, I don't think it is 21:30:17 due: Not the fix for what potions you get, the fix for not prompting you all the time 21:30:28 Ah 21:30:30 yeah 21:30:34 sorry! 21:31:31 Definitely winning for most controversial change of the game. 21:33:00 -!- murphy_slaw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:33:15 For what it's worth, I don't think random speed is any worse than random melee damage 21:33:25 Me neither. 21:33:30 People just need to adjust how they play the game. 21:33:37 If you want a game with non-random combat, DROD is waiting for you 21:36:06 Yeah. 21:39:26 -!- Siber has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:25 It fascinates me how many people in ##crawl are going "omfg omfg you broke the game". 21:40:32 And have *not* *even* *tried* *it. 21:40:46 so how exactly does one get a patch, anyway? 21:41:04 is there some git-diff > patch_file trick, or should I just upload the whole changed funciton? 21:41:11 git diff works 21:41:15 but what you want to do is git commit it 21:41:21 and then use git format-patch 21:41:32 -!- mumblerit has joined ##crawl-dev 21:41:36 due: elliptic HAS tried it :P And a lot of what can be expected can be gleaned from concept alone 21:41:44 Twinge: No, it can't. 21:41:55 Twinge: "Hm, I don't think I'll like the taste of this dish, so I wont' eat it." 21:42:10 it's a great change, ##crawl is all omfg my sacred cow 21:42:27 let's start banning people at random 21:42:27 (why do we even pay attention to ##crawl) 21:42:37 -!- due changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl (new and improved! and possibly buggy... let doy know) | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | Play the speed change, comment on the wiki, please. 21:44:34 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 21:49:31 due: I've had this dish in the past, and while this one is prepared differently, I bet I still won't like it =) Practical is important, don't get me wrong, but theoretical shouldn't be entirely dismissed either. 21:49:58 hmm, I can't figure out this git-format-patch thing, I'm so bad with the command line =/ 21:50:10 nrook: It's git format-patch 1, or something, in theory. 21:50:18 Twinge: I'm beyond sick of the complaining. 21:50:25 Twinge: So let's just not discuss it before I do something stupid. 21:50:49 -!- stabwound has quit [] 21:52:31 -!- Iainuki_ has quit [] 21:55:13 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 21:57:47 ploog: the whole problem with #-glyph enemies is that you can't differentiate them off screen 21:58:00 (from walls) 21:58:06 TGWi: Yeah, I *despise* them. 21:58:34 http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=271 21:58:38 alright, uploaded! 21:58:39 thanks! 21:58:43 this in response to "move elementals back to # and use elemental colours" 21:59:11 (I'm also opposed to elemental colours, because they provide less information in any given turn, but that's something else) 21:59:27 nrook: <3 22:00:00 nrook: <33 22:01:51 due: are you a person I can ask about how energy works? 22:02:05 I don't fully comprehend the code, sorear is probably better. 22:02:56 You can ask me questions though. 22:03:47 so, the player's speed affects monster energy gain? 22:03:58 yes 22:04:11 brb maths 22:04:46 how exactly does that work? the example given is 12 energy/tick for speed 12 vs delay 10 22:05:20 there are no ticks 22:05:26 12 energy/player turn 22:05:30 aut, timesteps, whatever 22:05:38 every time you move, every monster gets energy 22:08:24 due: Would you please reboot Gretell? 22:08:36 How? 22:08:44 I can recompile, unsure how to reboot. 22:09:12 Gretell is written in Perl, it's not compiled at all 22:09:23 Hm, seems to be still running 22:09:38 Should I just kill the gretell.pl instance and restart it? 22:09:44 Right, but it's on a downed server 22:09:45 Yes 22:09:53 You may need to change the server name 22:10:36 Hm, connection refused. 22:11:25 Does pratchett accept on 8001? 22:11:33 Or will I have to change port as well? 22:12:13 standard IRC port is 6667 22:12:26 I understnad Napkin's colo blocks outbound IRC though 22:12:33 so you may need to play around a bit 22:12:34 due: how serious were you about dwarf crocodiles? because I would appreciate that 22:13:58 Ah 22:14:00 Twinge: Not very. 22:14:08 Er, TGWi. 22:14:15 tab complete grievances? 22:14:32 also, :[ 22:14:37 but they're so cute 22:14:49 irc_registered: 'POE::Component::IRC=HASH(0xc2b548)' 22:14:49 irc_socketerr: 'connect error 111: Connection refused' 22:15:40 It is tres unhappy. 22:15:48 -!- Timbermaw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:16:50 Anyone got any ideas? 22:17:23 * due prods sorear gently. 22:17:48 * sorear prods a Napkin-shaped hole in the channel gently. 22:18:12 Yeah. :/ 22:18:22 I am reminded of a Joy Division song. 22:18:36 er 22:18:40 do you need hosting, or? 22:18:52 No, I'm trying to reboot Gretell. 'tis not working. 22:18:54 oh 22:18:55 nfi 22:19:21 cdo's hosting is not very IRC-friendly 22:19:27 one of the few working servers is down 22:19:28 elly, problems with bots in ##crawl 22:19:58 What other ones work? 22:21:44 -!- ogaz has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 22:21:52 do you want hosting on a machine with a publicly-routed IP and no restrictions on IRC? 22:22:28 elly: gretell.pl has to run with filesystem access to the CDO DGL 22:22:37 oh 22:22:39 sad face :P 22:23:26 I suppose we could set up a VPN of some sort and route port 6667 traffic from cdo via elly to freenode 22:23:40 But I have absolutely no experience with that sort of thing 22:23:45 my desire to configure that is exactly zero 22:27:05 it is a pain in arse 22:27:12 though why would it have to be a vpn? 22:27:23 it could just be an ssh port forward 22:27:24 a series of ssh tunnels would be easier 22:27:34 yeah 22:27:50 'series of' is a bit much :P 22:27:56 true 22:28:06 but I certainly have a machine you can tunnel through, if you hand me a pubkey and promise to be good 22:28:30 I have so much difficulty seting up ssh tunnels. Takes me an hour and the ssh man page. 22:29:07 in .ssh/config: Host foo \n HostName foo.net \n Port foo \n User foo \n DynamicForward localhost:num 22:29:19 and then localhost:num is a SOCKS proxy that exits at the remote host 22:29:21 which is what you need here 22:32:49 -!- Timbermaw has quit [Connection timed out] 22:32:53 -!- SiberSchool has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:58 I've only ever used dynamic forwards for Firefox over SSH 22:33:00 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 22:33:08 How does one set it up for Perl's IRC module? 22:33:15 *no* idea 22:33:23 Me neither. 22:33:28 And my power's about to go, bad storm. 22:33:43 oh well 22:33:49 no gretell won't kill anyone 22:52:44 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 22:54:32 Gretell! 22:54:40 Thanks, Napkin. 22:58:03 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 23:11:11 -!- Timbermaw_ has quit ["later!"] 23:12:34 -!- nrook has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:17:38 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 23:20:56 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 23:23:37 -!- eith has quit [No route to host] 23:29:53 Visually display piety in ^ (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=601) by TGW 23:33:44 why do all merfolk get spears for throwing? 23:34:14 would I be stoned to death if I brought up the spell hunger display again? 23:36:02 * due stones TGWi. 23:37:31 oh speaking of hunger, though 23:37:45 is there a way to see how much hunger evoked abilities cost, in the same way as for spells? 23:37:55 MarvinPA: Hehehehe. 23:38:03 wha? :o 23:41:33 read the source presumably 23:42:18 heh 23:42:20 due, I put up a patch a long while back implementing the removal of the DS Blink / Teleport muts, do you know if there is a problem with my implementation, or perhaps its just been overlooked? 23:42:46 i shall FR it or something then 23:45:11 Cryp71c: Most likely the latter. 23:45:41 Ah, ok. I wanted to make sure the patch didn't need some revising. I tested it myself and everything looks to be operating as normally, but I could've overlooked something. 23:46:34 People are lazy. :) 23:46:59 :) I'll poke jpeg until she commits it for me. I think I've become her DS pet ;) 23:48:24 Heh. 23:48:30 Well, Ds is sorear's baby 23:49:51 due, orly? I wasn't aware he had taken to it. The only person I had met / spoken with who expressed any profound experience was jpeg, and that was only via email ;) 23:50:50 O_o 23:50:58 sorear wrote most of the current demonspawn engine. 23:51:25 ..yeah I didn't know that :P of the times I've brought up or dpeg and I have been talking about DS changes or new DS ideas 23:51:30 sorear hasn't ever piped up 23:55:53 You think he'd mind if I !told him about the patch? 23:56:26 Not at all. 23:57:32 !tell sorear Implemented a patch for removing DS Blink / Teleport mutations a while back. Looks like its quietly slipped through the cracks, and I hear you're the DS specialist nowadays :) Feel free to take a look if you have time: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=502 23:57:33 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let sorear know. 23:58:20 ohh, I got confused there..I've been speaking with jpeg about Xom code :P 23:58:25 lol I'm getting confused!