00:04:25 -!- Giomancer has joined ##Crawl-Dev 00:06:21 -!- bmh has quit [] 00:09:06 if elf and gloorx vloq's level use dark grey why can't wizlabs? 00:09:55 ideally, they would stop using it at some point in the future 00:09:56 st__: Because most of them use darkgrey and it's boring. 00:10:11 doroklohe's isn't too bad, but there are instances where we use darkgrey just because. 00:10:28 i find darkgrey floors irritating 00:10:33 because you can't tell where los ends 00:10:44 Yeah, I prefer magenta. 00:12:04 doroklohe being all dark is doomy and awesome 00:12:09 Yeah 00:12:24 Tukima's is fine as well. 00:19:39 doy you win this round. I can't figure out how to build this with profiling support. 00:19:51 i'm making progress 00:20:07 it looks like there were two jumps, actually 00:20:22 one that went from near instantaneous to ~10ms/turn 00:20:37 and then another that jumped to ~40ms/turn 00:21:14 the first one seems to have happened almost 4 months ago 00:21:36 this is exactlyw hat a profiler is made for, but I'm not sure if the app terminated unexpectedly, or if my -pg is getting ignored somehow. 00:22:13 henryci: You basically have to add -pg to all the compiler flags *everywhere*. 00:22:23 I did something really silly 00:22:26 And even then, you are not guaranteed of it working 00:22:28 @??vampire 00:22:29 vampire (05V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 7, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 212 | Sp: vampire summon, confuse, invisibility. 00:22:29 I renamed gcc-4.0 00:22:32 @??vampire knight 00:22:32 vampire knight (10V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-110 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 33, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(88), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 1435 | Sp: vampire summon, paralyse, haste, invisibility, minor healing. 00:22:34 and made a script which did 00:22:42 gcc-4.0.bak -pg $@ 00:22:46 so it added it to everything it built. 00:22:47 :)) 00:22:53 you also need the flags on the linker 00:22:56 this is what $CC is for 00:23:00 @??vampire mage 00:23:00 vampire mage (06V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 24-56 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 7, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(64), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 631 | Sp: b.draining, summon undead, invisibility, animate dead, teleport self. 00:23:03 and $LD 00:23:13 sorear: agreed. It just wasn't doing anything so I had to be sure. 00:23:23 vampire mages summon liches, why do they have 630 xp 00:23:33 I was wondering that. 00:23:48 sorear: because they die so easily 00:24:02 Health: 24-56 | AC/EV: 10/10 00:24:08 they're practically boggarts 00:24:09 * due rebranding vampires for Borgjnor's map. 00:24:28 @? boggart 00:24:29 boggart (06g) | Speed: 12 | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Damage: 5 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(18) | XP: 20 | Sp: confuse, slow, invisibility, blink, shadow creatures. 00:24:41 I didn't know that they could summon liches, I thought summon undead's strength was based off of HD 00:24:46 is the flag different for GXX ? 00:25:08 summon undead's composition is a fixed list 00:25:29 historically it was "all undead monsters with internal ID number less than 200" 00:25:40 which included liches but just cut off ancient liches 00:25:45 I don't know what it is now 00:25:52 brb 00:28:08 -!- pointless_ has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:00 What colour goes well with white and magenta? 00:53:07 Yellow? 00:53:18 cyan 00:55:43 Hm, it does, actually. 00:57:47 .....um 00:57:51 are you serious 00:58:39 yes 00:58:55 Will termcast 00:59:00 the first commit that makes things noticeably slower is 9c13afce9a3c 00:59:10 I'm also serious 00:59:27 okay, termcasting the cyan 00:59:53 Cyan doesn't look so bad. 01:00:03 yeah 01:00:13 better than anything else I've tried 01:00:35 Yellow and lightcyan and lightblue are blech. 01:00:39 as is lightgrey 01:02:16 hmmmm, actually, i wonder 01:04:01 doy is that the full commit id? 01:04:39 henryci: it's enough for git to recognize 01:04:58 but i think it might just be that that's the first commit that actually respects HURRY=1 01:05:03 to say "don't optimize" 01:05:15 because optimized builds take forever and a half 01:05:24 so i normally don't do them 01:05:41 I have never made an optimized build. 01:05:56 -funroll-all-loops mmm 01:06:07 sorear: yeah, there's that too 01:06:13 kinda questionable about that in general 01:06:20 delicious i386-specific cflags 01:06:50 -!- Timbermaw has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:52 isn't unroll all loops assumed with -O after a certain level? 01:07:02 henryci: no 01:07:34 funroll-loops might be, don't quite remember 01:07:43 -funroll-all-loops means *all* loops 01:07:47 but funroll-all-loops is almost always bad 01:08:00 ohh, distinction. 01:08:01 -funroll-loops means "unroll loops if you think it will help" 01:08:20 in any case, that seems to have been removed at some point, so 01:08:29 -funroll-all-loops means "I don't trust the heuristic analyser, unroll *everything* even if you know it will hurt" 01:08:45 *everything you can 01:08:47 what about when teh compiler doesn't know how many loops? 01:08:54 it sitll ignores, or does someting odd? 01:08:56 that falls under "can't" 01:09:04 i think it still tries its best 01:09:23 funroll loops! 01:09:40 No relation to funfair loops? 01:09:41 man page says "Unroll all loops, even if their number of iterations is uncertain 01:09:41 when the loop is entered." 01:09:43 not sure how that work. 01:10:04 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 01:10:09 henryci: can unroll them into a loop where the body is repeated 01:10:18 and break out at appropriate points 01:10:24 Ah, darkgrey, cool. 01:10:33 by: Apparently there are still issues with windows builds of tiles just crashing completely. 01:10:55 Once the splash screen goes away, it exits. 01:11:02 I haven't had anythingg similar on Linux though. 01:11:18 good morning 01:11:18 by: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 01:11:21 in any case, it is pretty impressive how much of a difference optimization makes 01:11:27 !messages 01:11:27 (1/2) dpeg said (18h 20m 7s ago): Could it be that there is a forced --more-- after level gains? 01:11:38 !messages 01:11:38 (1/1) doy said (6h 16m 46s ago): i think i do like the change, although i think it would help a lot if the leading - showed up in ^P too. also, it seems that message condensation doesn't happen in ^P anymore? 01:12:41 doy: I think in ^P, it's currently just not printing the x2 01:12:49 ah, that might be 01:12:51 also, thanks for testing! 01:13:08 it'd be nice if there was a way to consolidate between turns too, in a way that wasn't confusing 01:13:15 not sure about that though 01:13:46 due: we're down to "windows and tiles" now? progress! 01:14:22 doy: maybe change the - to a + in that case? 01:15:11 but not sure how to go about this either 01:17:11 doy: what do you think about the lack of --more-- prompts when many messages come in? 01:17:30 by: i was trying to decide about that 01:17:49 in theory it's nice, since the stuff that scrolls off is almost certainly spam 01:18:22 but the nervousness of "did i miss something important" isn't really able to be eliminated, i think 01:19:02 we could possible use the top left cell as some kind of indicator: did anything pass? what colour? 01:19:16 currently, it's just the lack of any dash 01:28:20 a dash! a splash! vivite! 01:32:13 -!- neunon has quit ["Leaving"] 01:32:20 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 01:32:23 -!- neunon has quit [Client Quit] 01:32:39 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 01:32:48 -!- neunon is now known as Guest24661 01:34:54 -!- Guest24661 has quit [Client Quit] 01:35:26 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 01:42:48 03by * r8f02fb45c1e7 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Update message.cc todo list. 01:42:50 03by * r8f2b434468ac 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Print new-turn leading dashes in message history. 01:42:50 03by * r79f2493d404f 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Remove unused and unimplemented string cast from message_item. 01:42:52 03by * r7cc82fd8aa44 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Make repeats-appending a method of message_item. 01:42:54 03by * rb532e5542fd7 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Show repeats in message history. 01:47:59 -!- neunon has quit ["leaving"] 01:48:34 03by * raca0e9bbb277 10/crawl-ref/source/menu.cc: menu.cc: Improve handling of MF_START_AT_END. 01:48:50 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 01:50:01 Add more status effects to the monster list (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=564) by OG17 01:51:49 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 01:54:29 03due 07wizlab * r9c11f6147f15 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: Overhaul layout, convert random Lab to Borgnjor, randomise Cloud. 01:54:33 03due 07wizlab * r1790236c8f09 10/crawl-ref/ (494 files in 35 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into wizlab 01:55:23 Hm. 01:55:27 Need a descriptive name. 01:55:37 for? 01:55:39 Ah, Lair will do. 01:55:51 I still want to use Punk's Pile one of these days. 02:00:04 Apportation doesn't autotarget items in the abyss (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=565) by Core Xii 02:02:58 How odd. 02:03:30 presumably it's using the stash code 02:03:36 eah 02:03:36 I've seen this too 02:03:40 03due 07wizlab * r86750070b16d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: And randomise Hellbinder too. 02:03:42 No stashing in Abyss. 02:03:54 stash code *normally* knows all about items in LOS 02:04:03 03due 07wizlab * rbe8bed08d8a6 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: Update documentation for the various WizLabs. 02:04:35 03by * r3003e89d4b03 10/crawl-ref/source/chardump.cc: Make display_notes() start at the end. 02:04:35 03by * r6b9c49922c56 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Fix a crash with another GOTO_CRT/GOTO_DNGN confusion. 02:12:34 by: The ^P change is great :0 02:12:39 *:) 02:12:52 I like the '-more-' when you scroll back, is that new? 02:13:08 no; it should eventually get a prompt more like the help browser 02:13:38 in fact, there's no reason why the help browser should be hacking its prompt when the formatted_scroller should be doing this all along 02:13:41 03due 07wizlab * rfe6e1d309a56 10/crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc chardump.cc menu.cc message.cc): Merge branch 'master' into wizlab 02:17:49 Okay, merging wizlab back into master... 02:17:52 Should be a lot cleaner this time. 02:24:37 YEs 02:24:40 Let's nerf Poison Arrow 02:25:51 raise it to level 7, and cut poison conj irresistable part across the board? 02:26:30 let's look at why it's overpowered 02:26:48 AFAICT poison arrow is so good now because people used to say poison sucked 02:27:06 so the poison spells - all of them - got mostly overlooked during the 0.5 range nerf 02:27:33 the simple solution here is to finish what we started and actually nerf poison range 02:27:36 poison has the added benefit in 0.6 of being quiet 02:28:06 XL7 would help 02:28:55 L7 *and* cutting irresistable damage would probably be bad 02:29:04 ah, no, poison conjurations don't have the silence 02:29:38 I'd like poison arrow to be less of a general purpose conjuration 02:30:11 L7 and less irresistable damage *on PA* would achieve that 02:30:36 I was worried it'd get too close to venom bolt 02:30:50 that has a significant irresistable part, too, right? 02:30:52 PA does a lot more damage and is a lot more accurate 02:31:06 venom bolt actually doesn't have an irresistable part 02:31:15 most monsters are 80% poison resistant 02:31:17 @?? hydra 02:31:18 hydra (09D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | Health: 39-104 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(52), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 1214. 02:31:30 or less 02:31:34 ah, so it damages through that 02:31:49 from the monster angle, PR is another tri-level resistance 02:32:11 I think it might use a different formula, but it's still levelled 02:32:26 there are a couple poison+++ monsters, you can't hurt them with venom bolt 02:32:46 it's probably using the 1/3 1/9 1/11 schedule 02:32:54 er, 1/3 1/9 0 02:33:12 -!- henryci has quit [] 02:36:18 my worry is that eliminating venom bolt damage against hydras and similar + bumping PA to level 7 will render VM unviable for all but the best spellcasters 02:36:25 03by * rd2a021c341da 10/crawl-ref/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Add option show_more. 02:36:28 03by * r98e3c33d541a 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Implement window-full --more-- prompts for delayed messaging. 02:36:43 although, the availability of isky blast in the book of power might change the parameters here 02:37:09 perhaps just increasing Poison Arrow's level will help? 02:37:24 I'd prefer reducing the irresistible part 02:38:04 How does the irresistable part compar to venom bolt? 02:38:22 due: the irresistable part of PA competes with crystal spear, not venom bolt 02:38:48 03due 07vaults * r7cd3712e8953 10/crawl-ref/ (495 files in 36 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into vaults 02:38:48 Ah 02:38:52 then yeah, turn it down 02:38:56 it's wrong that a pure conjurer should think to branch into poison to handle the omni-resistant end-game monsters 02:38:58 03due 07vaults * r1ad4593af319 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (builder/vault_gen.des vault_gen.des): Move Vault generation stuff into the right location. 02:39:34 by: Agree 02:39:39 agree 02:40:11 also, everyone considersit the best spell in 0.6 02:40:21 that in itself makes eyebroows get raised in my opinion 02:41:26 it isn't even the best conjuration in 0.6, OOD is. 02:41:34 st__: Sure. 02:41:47 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:41:48 But poison is a relatively weak class. 02:41:53 Mu_! :D 02:41:54 sorear, due: cut from 40% to 20%? 02:42:01 by: Sure. 02:42:05 dueey 02:42:11 Mu_: doing wizlab cleanup! 02:42:24 But doing troves now. 02:42:26 nice 02:42:33 I'm using the random death map for Borgnjor :) 02:42:40 Just because it looks so cool. 02:42:41 noooo it sucks 02:42:52 Well, we can change it later. 02:43:05 have you played through it properly 02:43:14 yeah. 02:43:25 i had so many problems with threat creeping from later areas into early ones 02:43:28 hm 02:43:35 door restrict might help in that case 02:43:47 i tried making everything patrolling and massively reducing enemies but it's still bad 02:43:58 door_restrict should fix it, then. 02:44:01 and the mummies wont stay in their rooms 02:44:01 ok 02:44:42 okay, stash search time 02:45:12 sigh, the bit I've been dreading 02:46:38 -!- ogaz has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:47:14 -!- kilobyte has quit ["leaving"] 02:48:48 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 02:49:38 oh, wow, it wasn't 40% irresistible, it was 40% resistible :) 02:51:00 oh :o 02:51:17 should defnitely be 40% irresistible, then, at least. 02:51:17 how many games has core xii actually played with sif and oka, do you think? 02:51:25 I don't know, nor do I care. 02:51:29 70% resistible? 02:51:31 I still quite like myidea. 02:51:36 by: Sounds good. 02:51:41 i mean, that last comment is especially clueless 02:51:54 doy: I don't even get what relevance it had to the comment thread. 02:52:48 me either 02:52:58 but i mean, regardless of that, it's not even true in practice 02:53:12 I'm assuming it's a "please please please don't take poison arrow away from Vehu :(( ^_^" comment. 02:53:48 i think it's more a "but non-guaranteed things make the game *hard*" comment 02:53:56 which i put no amount of weight in at all 02:54:08 non-guaranteed make things *fun*. 02:54:13 right 02:54:24 you have to make ttactical decisions 02:55:35 what's the tactical decision in not getting any half-usable spellbooks all the game? 02:55:55 kilobyte: no, that's the part that i was saying "it's not even true in practice" about 02:56:25 I wasn't specifcially referring to that 02:56:33 kilobyte: keep in mind that this latest comment is complaining that he never gets the books he wants *when playing sif* 02:56:44 this is tangential to the vehumet book discussion 02:57:00 heh, complaining to no spells _with Sif_ is indeed ridiculous 02:57:24 03by * rcc822e213c4e 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Nerf poison arrow. 02:57:27 * by looking forward to the ##crawl reaction 02:57:29 by++ 02:57:38 <3 02:57:39 due: push to cdo? 02:57:40 (: 02:57:42 Two seconds 02:57:47 I was just about to anyway 02:57:53 Should I forcefully upgrade everyone? 02:57:58 heh 02:58:07 heh, don't think it's *that* critical 02:58:08 (: 02:58:09 by <3 02:58:18 kilobyte: What did you think about my suggestion for Vehumet gifting individual spells? 02:58:56 it sounds more like something Sif would do, but it may be a half-decent proposal 02:59:08 yeah, i can't decide on that point either 02:59:12 I like Sif's randomly drowning you in books niche. 02:59:24 But to be honest, it could be a completely new spellcasting god. 02:59:41 well, the "randomly drowning you with books" is planned to be redone at some point 02:59:46 Heh. 02:59:53 there are a few frs floating around 03:00:01 Sacrificing wands, scrolls and books and other magical items to a god, in return for them teaching you powerful conjurations that are relevant... 03:00:05 Sif is way way way more overpowered than Okawaru in her niche 03:00:05 I think that itself would be interesting. 03:00:09 Yes 03:00:16 Sif is hideously overpowered now that we have randart books 03:00:18 by++ I support this change and rationale 03:00:22 by: Me too, btw 03:00:44 Okawaru may or may not give you something usable, it's common to not get a single usable weapon from him the whole game. With Sif, she'll give you books according to your skills. 03:00:47 kilobyte: i wouldn't say way way way 03:00:55 ie, spells you want the most first 03:01:09 Did you touch level at all? 03:01:09 kilobyte: "it's common to not get a single usable weapon from him the whole game" <- this is not true in my opinion 03:01:21 and the armour gifts are the more important and useful ones anyway 03:01:27 and you get plenty of useful armour gifts 03:01:41 s/in my opinion/in my experience/ 03:02:04 but yes, sif's gifting algorithm is a bit extreme 03:02:16 it depends. On an axes char, you'll get good ones. On a staves char, most of games you won't get a single lajatang at all, not to mention getting a decent one. 03:02:19 We should also reduce the chance of Vehumet spells 03:02:34 As I don't think we'll change Vehumet much before 0.6 is released 03:02:36 kilobyte: yeah, that's true enough 03:02:37 to 0, I'd say 03:02:43 No, just really minimal. 03:02:51 kilobyte: playing a spriggan, i was drowning in robes of resistances and such 03:02:53 that's because acquirement weights are completely borked 03:03:01 because he couldn't figure out what other armour to give me 03:03:09 and that's pretty ridiculous 03:03:12 bigger badder weapons should be common from acquirement, not rare 03:03:12 sorear: yes 03:03:14 Whereas playing Trog on aa long blades user 03:03:24 I got three crossbows, a sling, two daggers and a scimitar. 03:03:25 staves have two entries: quarterstaves with weight 10, lajatangs with 1 or 2 03:03:27 Which was distortion. 03:03:30 Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2771-gcc822e2 (16.2) 03:03:42 doy: I liked Okawaru better when he gave my spriggans +8 caps of fire resistance 03:03:48 (: 03:03:55 :) 03:03:56 I miss that bug 03:04:21 in any case 03:04:29 i agree that sif and oka are both pretty broken 03:04:44 but that doesn't mean we have to balance the gods we're currently redoing against that standard 03:05:05 what about Sif granting completely random spells, without skill weighting? 03:05:37 oh yeah, i did have a game going, didn't i 03:08:50 by: the - in the ^P screen does help a whole log 03:08:50 lot 03:08:52 (: 03:09:10 i'm not sure that the + thing is displaying as intended though 03:09:47 is it supposed to be like a --more-- prompt? 03:10:12 doy: yes, currently, small experiment 03:10:14 crawl.random_element works unutterly like I expected 03:10:20 wanted to save a message line 03:10:57 Hm. 03:11:00 by: putting the cursor on top of the + rather than after it would look less weird, i think 03:11:27 ah, yes, will try to do that 03:11:30 thanks 03:14:04 by: hmmm, it can also wrap just the --more-- line from lines that cause --more-- prompts 03:14:26 just got a + next to low hp warning, and then had to space away the --more-- prompt on its own after that 03:18:50 by: hmmm, maybe the between-turns message compression shouldn't be a generic thing, but should just be for continued actions 03:18:59 "You continue eating. (3 turns)" 03:19:00 or so 03:24:39 should I closed issues that are awaiting acknowledgement by me? 03:24:56 if they're fixed 03:25:49 Status: Resolved, Resolution, Fixed 03:26:45 mark as closed then 03:28:16 nice, 3 issues closed :D 03:29:40 doy, whats up with the [ prompt? 03:29:47 cbus: ? 03:29:58 Cloak : none Helmet : none Gloves : none Barding : (restricted) Shield : none 03:30:01 +Armour : i - a +0 robe 03:30:03 it shows like this 03:30:03 and then it waits for an input 03:30:12 (cursor being placed at the A in armour) 03:30:24 so you can't just [ and continue playing unless you press enter 03:30:36 is that intentional? 03:30:39 cbus: oh, that + in the bottom left is by's new experiment for replacing --more-- when too many things scroll by at once 03:30:50 trying to save a message line 03:30:54 ugh, takes one more key press 03:31:01 cbus: not any more than it used to 03:31:03 well 03:31:08 it does on [ 03:31:13 since [ was bugged and didn't --more-- :D 03:31:17 yeah, that's just a bug with it though 03:31:18 (: 03:31:33 well, maybe not 03:31:34 hmmm 03:31:43 unintentional consequence of something else 03:31:46 cbus: you can disable these more prompts entirely with show_more=false; seems there's something else going on however 03:31:53 I don't think it scrolls in older versions 03:32:01 by: the issue is that there is one fewer line to use now 03:32:06 because the last one is almost always - 03:32:11 yes 03:32:25 so if it displayed all of the lines from the [ display, it would scroll the top one off the screen 03:32:37 I'll try with it 03:33:01 might have to go through informational displays and shrink them down to 5 lines? 03:33:15 the trouble is that we don't know whether more messages are coming at the time we have to decide whether to show the more prompt currently 03:33:20 looks weird with the cursor at the char after the + though 03:33:20 right 03:33:24 well 03:33:32 cbus: yeah, i already mentioned that 03:33:47 by: the trouble is that there always will be at least one more message line used 03:33:53 because of the - at the end 03:34:24 yes 03:34:51 it feels like it stops to require keypresess without a reason too 03:34:53 on some places 03:35:06 cbus: pretty sure those are all this same issue 03:35:06 (where it wouldn't give more lines than could be displayed) 03:35:30 like when wearing a buckler 03:35:56 the [ display works for me 03:36:06 it's six lines in a seven line message window 03:36:19 by: how do you have seven lines? 03:36:48 24 - (2*8+1) 03:37:05 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 03:37:25 by: yes, but on my game, it leaves a blank line between the map and the message area 03:37:41 doy: that's a bug then 03:37:55 okay, sooo 03:38:02 check msg_{min,max}_height, view_{min,max}_height? 03:38:04 if dodging is < 15 or so, let's ask for a robe of resistance! 03:38:52 I don't appear to have any of these set... 03:39:01 i don't either 03:39:06 weird 03:39:23 i have view_lock_{x,y} set to false 03:39:48 and symmetric_scroll set to false 03:40:24 those don't make a difference here... 03:40:57 let me try wiping my config and trying a fresh one 03:41:31 hmmm, yeah 03:41:37 with a blank config, i get 7 lines 03:41:51 must be a bug with some option i'm using then? 03:42:02 one that cbus is using too, i guess 03:42:40 A statue in the abyss => Marking area around the statue as unsafe for travelling. x2 every turn. 03:42:51 due, Porkchop has a question for you: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:tiles:tiles_missing_for_wizlabs 03:43:19 Oh, thanks 03:43:23 * due waas about to update that 03:44:21 03by * r26e68231fc2d 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Show cursor on single-char more prompt. 03:45:11 -!- purge has quit ["!"] 03:45:35 -!- hotsun has joined ##crawl-dev 03:46:03 -!- hotsun has left ##crawl-dev 03:48:42 aha 03:48:46 by: show_gold_turns 03:48:53 it makes the hud take an extra line 03:48:57 which bumps down the message area 03:49:07 that should be taken off the monster info I think 03:49:11 it should shrink the monster list size by 1 instead 03:49:11 yeah 03:49:25 How odd 03:49:31 I'll fix that in a moment; do you have a way to reproduce the double more prompts? 03:50:21 by: not reliably, just get something to hit you in a way that takes 6 lines of messages, so that the 7th is a low hp warning 03:50:54 hmm 03:52:00 that's the splel "Twist"? 03:52:18 it's a tloc 1 version of freeze 03:52:30 Oh, interesting. 03:52:33 dates from 2.x or 3.x, warpers used to start with it 03:52:38 But gone now? 03:52:38 hasn't been used since 03:52:45 it *should* be gone now 03:52:55 if it's still there, kill it with extreme prejudice 03:53:10 pigvomit mentioned it on his wikipage 03:53:28 before my time, I guess :) 03:53:49 doy? 03:54:10 Napkin: sigh, virus keeps crashing on me when i try to enter my config 03:54:19 (i assume that's what you're referring to) 03:54:32 you sent me in-game messages ;) 03:54:38 ...heh 03:54:42 Beep! Your pager goes off! Use _ to check your messages. 03:54:42 doy: ode = no 03:54:42 doy: _colours = false 03:54:48 ahahahahaha 03:54:54 i guess it crashed, and then dgl got the remainder of the paste 03:54:58 i can wget it for you from somewhere? 03:55:10 03by * r089a10b3131f 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: An attempt at preventing "double" more prompts. 03:55:11 03by * r623fa484229a 10/crawl-ref/ (docs/options_guide.txt settings/init.txt source/initfile.cc): Reduce mlist_min_height default to 4. 03:55:32 Napkin: http://github.com/doy/conf/raw/master/crawlrc 03:56:37 i should really go back through options_guide again one of these days 03:56:42 and redo my options file 03:56:47 haven't done that since 0.4 03:56:53 done 03:56:57 Napkin: thanks(: 03:57:02 :) 03:57:14 doy: just commit your changes to initfile.cc and never worry again :) 03:57:19 hehe 03:58:34 I wish haran would merge the direction() rewrite 03:59:33 Weren't there concerns about it impacting tiles in a negative manner? 04:00:37 that could still be fixed afterwards, if it turns out to be true; I tried it out and it seemed fine 04:01:50 Is there a wiz-mode command to populate the stach tracker with the entire content sof a level? 04:01:51 Does sunlight do something to plants? The Fedhas wiki page seems to indicate so, but the ability description doesn't say that. (testing..) 04:02:04 Keskitalo: It can cause plants to grow if it evaporates water. 04:02:20 Oh, I see! 04:02:45 Plop! There's one. :) 04:02:51 :) 04:02:53 I love Fedhas. 04:03:09 -!- neunon_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:03:12 Nyahaha, killed a big fish. 04:03:52 who hit enum.h :( 04:03:55 -!- neunon_ has quit [Client Quit] 04:04:01 The zero-headed hydra corpse sways and immediately collapses! 04:04:02 hah 04:04:04 -!- neunon has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:04:23 at least it leaves the corpse there for me to eat 04:04:37 oh, I hit enum.h 04:04:38 carry on 04:05:05 I still got a --more-- prompt with the + change (and the hotfix) 04:05:25 cbus: Where, on CDO? 04:05:39 cbus: + then directly --more--? 04:05:48 yeah, on CDO 04:05:58 You have reached level 9! Your experience leads to an increase in your attributes! You feel clever. Your skin feels tougher. 04:06:02 --more-- 04:06:15 has it been updated since those changes? 04:06:36 No 04:06:40 :p. 04:06:56 * Spads wants his skin to feel softer and less scaly 04:06:59 greensnark, greensnark, greensnark! 04:07:10 cbus: there's still one --more-- prompt after gaining a level left 04:07:11 * due fetches rats, a few twigs, and some dribbly candles. 04:07:39 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 04:10:58 -You are wielding a +2,+1 orcish dagger of holy wrath. --more-- 04:11:35 Dance, Muddy Mudsipper, dance! 04:11:46 (goes to ##crawl) 04:11:49 cbus: there's two types of more prompts 04:12:15 those for a full window (just the +) and those where the game wants to interrupt you (--more--) 04:12:18 Keskitalo: I *finally* fixed of flame o fflame! 04:12:31 I mostly haven't touched that latter 04:13:27 due: You merciless butcherer of amusing bugs! Good. :) 04:13:52 btw 04:13:59 GOD DAMN IM GLAD THAT PRAYING WHEN USING VEHUMET IS GONE 04:14:18 Wow 04:14:22 did needle poisonous stacks get changed back up? 04:14:28 yes 04:14:30 hmm (oops wrong order on the words) 04:14:32 That is an impressive amount of enthusiasm for a UI change 04:14:47 I rememeber the autoprayer function 04:14:47 :D 04:14:55 me too 04:14:56 (: 04:15:00 Autoprayer function? 04:15:01 I never used it though 04:15:11 due, yeah, to keep praying constantly (with vehu and stuff) 04:15:55 O_o 04:15:58 Why pray with vehu? 04:16:19 cause you didn't get the bonus otherwise? 04:16:31 ok, this might kill this char 04:16:39 also to dedicate kills, right? 04:16:42 Level 9 NaVM vs wandering mushroom 04:16:44 by, yeah 04:17:15 naga should be able to run from wandering mushrooms 04:17:23 they hit to hard 04:20:30 Bah. 04:20:46 I thought this might be easy, but it's not. 04:21:58 by: Oh, I love the + more prompt. 04:23:15 I was a bit confused about it, but I suppose it quickly speaks it's function. 04:23:15 great! 04:23:25 Keskitalo: Me too, but you pick it up extremely quickly. 04:23:34 I was like "huh, what's that +--OH, duh". 04:23:39 with the cursor, it should be better 04:23:43 As long as you notice the '+' sign, which might be the hard part. 04:24:08 by: Cursor? 04:24:31 doy suggested to place the cursor on the + sign 04:24:39 Yeah 04:24:42 It's much better with the cursor 04:24:46 Sounds like a good idea. 04:24:50 is that live now? 04:24:52 Shall I update CDO? 04:24:57 Napkin: :) 04:25:02 I was thinking appending (press enter) to the end? 04:25:10 wasn't it updated this morning? 04:25:17 but sure, go ahead :) 04:25:19 due, me to :D 04:25:21 Keskitalo: the point was to avoid using an extra line though 04:25:27 * Keskitalo nods 04:25:34 Keskitalo: of the last line? could do if it's not full, or just override the end 04:25:44 but I don't really think it's necessary 04:25:47 btw, by? 04:25:52 Napkin: yes? 04:25:57 by: We'll get to test that in our usability project! <3 04:26:00 Napkin: We should cojoin all of the 16.2 games to the latest ones; I won't touch the 16.1, as that's the change for AC/EV. 04:26:25 have you seen the messages when you use temple in a term >24 lines? 04:26:59 by: We can note if it causes problems (for fresh players). 04:27:10 Napkin: probably; don't think it depends only terminal size 04:27:34 you mean praying at an altar, right? 04:27:52 yes, and being asked to join the religion 04:28:41 the religion screen is writing to the message window despite it not being displayed... 04:28:50 ACK 04:28:53 Napkin: I am sorry :((( 04:29:05 pardon? 04:29:10 about, due? 04:29:31 it is being displayed in terms >80, by, that's what I meant 04:29:36 it looks interesting :D 04:29:37 I auto-tab-completed the wrong savegame-transfet, and did the transfer-all, I caugght it in time before it transferred all of the the 16.1 games, but I think you got updated. :/ 04:29:53 heh :D 04:29:58 (It started on the old versions first.) 04:30:00 i was already at 16.2 04:30:02 <3 ^C 04:30:03 oh good 04:30:10 so there were only like 10 people on 16.1? good good 04:30:14 * due had a minor heart attack. 04:30:19 no "16.1" got upgraded :) 04:30:23 oh :) 04:30:58 well, there's still 8 on 16.1, but I'll leave them 04:31:01 because that's the AC/EV change 04:31:06 sorry, in terms >24 lines, rob 04:31:13 yes 04:31:22 they should decide for themselves - i agree :) 04:31:43 i made a screenshot this morning at home.. oh, wait, let me upload it somewhere, by 04:32:00 I force-updated... myself! Whoops. :) 04:32:15 did the "in use" function work? 04:32:22 ShouldI update for the rest of the -more- changes? I just removed two intermediate 16.2 versions. ;) 04:32:25 Yes! 04:32:37 I can't tell if the light glow counters my invisibility. Which is nnghhh, because the invisibility gives the glow (although not immediately). 04:32:45 Keskitalo: Light glow does not. 04:32:50 Keskitalo: But you're right, this is unclear. 04:32:57 Propose: 04:33:04 IF you are glowing, or otherwise sticky flames, etc 04:33:13 "Invis" shoows up as the same colour as light glow 04:33:17 Denoting that it is useless 04:33:23 hmmm, someone should revert that change where monster info for the default targetted monster isn't shown 04:33:31 until you move the cursor around 04:33:34 because it's annoying 04:33:46 by: http://ipxserver.dyndns.org/misc/shot-121.png 04:33:46 Sounds ok. Doesn't erase the confusion *before* a serious glow happens, though. 04:34:23 Napkin: yes, I think this is the yesno() bug; working on a fix 04:34:37 If gray glow doesn't actually make you glow visibly, it should probably go by some other name? 04:34:44 That would fix it. 04:34:44 I wonder, did it ever work correctly in 0.5 with a large terminal? 04:34:47 "Contam"? 04:34:49 excellent :) just checking if you were aware of that, rob :) 04:35:09 yes, it did, by 04:35:16 well.. not sure about "correctly" 04:35:33 but it didn't show the previous messages until you left the temple 04:35:50 Keskitalo: Invis products will be coloured grey if you're glowing noticeably. 04:35:57 (which it probably didn't either, because of the previous clear screen - but you know what I mean, right?) 04:35:58 it's just very fragile code, so I wouldn't have been surprised to see it break down before 04:36:21 The war dog appears confused. The war dog bites Grum! Grum dies! 04:36:25 ooh the irony 04:36:25 :D 04:36:37 @?? war dog 04:36:37 war dog (10h) | Speed: 17 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 4/15 | Damage: 12 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(16) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 167. 04:36:43 due: That happens already? 04:36:48 for some reason I've been thinking that they were PR :) 04:36:50 Keskitalo: Yes. 04:36:57 while I'm at it, can I remove the religion confirmation prompt? 04:37:01 Cool. It also proves that didn't help against my confusion. :) 04:37:11 @?? warg 04:37:11 warg (16h) | Speed: 13 | HD: 4 | Health: 16-36 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 12, 3, 3 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(32), 03poison | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 100. 04:37:14 one Y should be enough, yes 04:37:19 tends to confuse me too 04:37:35 Keskitalo: Yes. 04:37:40 by the way, relating to the previous conversation: i'm on Lair:3 (D:12), and i've already found 4 random books beyond my starting book 04:37:43 -!- bhaak_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:38:03 enchantments, earth, minor magic[frost], monster manual 04:38:23 doy: I've cleared lair and orc and most of snake and hive and D down to about 18 and still haven't found a second summoning book 04:38:34 due: What do you think of separating Contam and Glow? When you'd have yellow Contam, you'd also display the blue Glow? 04:38:43 only scroll of acquirement gave a book of ice at Ice 5, Summ >= 12 04:39:04 Keskitalo: Hm, might be a bit spammy. 04:39:22 cbus: Sounds like an awesome Grum encounter! 04:40:10 To be honest, why do we bother displaying light glow? 04:40:23 keskitalo, :D 04:40:24 due: we didn't used to 04:40:27 and people complained 04:40:29 keskitalo, I got another funky encounter now 04:40:29 Hm. 04:40:30 The beam expands into a vile cloud! The stinking cloud engulfs the ogre. The ogre is engulfed in noxious gasses! The ogre appears confused. The ogre asks, "Where am I?" The ogre falls through a shaft! 04:40:30 I don't know; it also makes contamination much less dangerous 04:40:31 due: That's a downside, yeah. But I think Invis+glow happens quite a lot. 04:40:37 I like how irssi makes the spam into one line :D 04:41:30 yay for -25° freezing the network off 04:41:35 gray glow is damn useful 04:41:42 Hm, okay. 04:41:53 I think it's good to provide the light contamination information. It's under '@', and if displaying it more prominently makes it easier to avoid, we should do that. 04:41:56 I think Invis should be displayed in a differrent colour if you're uselessly glowing (halo, corona, etc). 04:42:06 Because playing better with not showing the gray glow just means you *should* play a bit more tediously. 04:42:16 Yeah. 04:42:24 No, gray glow is probably good. 04:42:26 without it, you have no clue whether it's safe to use glow-inducing stuff, you have no feedback until the moment you get bad mutations 04:42:28 on an unrelated note 04:42:31 Okay 04:42:36 -!- bhaak has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 04:42:36 Keskitalo: ok, but the previously glow was balanced slightly by interface; we should probably up contamination a bit 04:42:41 why does yred get both animate remains and animate dead 04:43:05 how often are you actually going to be in a situation where the distinction will matter 04:43:19 cbus: lol @ shaftogre 04:44:02 by: Yeah, that's a possibility. 04:44:23 doy: One of them costs more piety 04:44:28 doy: Animate rains only relates to the corpse you stand over 04:44:35 due: yes, i know 04:44:40 animate remains is piety-free 04:44:52 when would you ever want to cast animate dead 04:45:09 when you feel lazy? 04:45:15 doy: I think it's more food-expensive 04:45:29 animate dead takes a minor piety hit and costs less food, I think 04:45:32 also, in fights animate dead can help 04:45:36 by: yes, agree 04:45:38 ah 04:45:39 I know I've used it 04:45:42 by: I mean yeah, if it was more dangerous "for the wrong reasons" before, it should probably be more dangerous for real. 04:45:43 when you can't reach the corpses relevant 04:47:06 I'll make a wiki page or an FR out of the glow/contam/invis thing. 04:47:16 Well, I'm going to do the useless Invis thing 04:47:21 Once I finishing fixing this bug 04:47:34 <3 04:47:48 -!- Giomancer has quit ["For Sale: Parachute. Only used once, never opened, small stain."] 04:48:13 Keskitalo: great! 04:50:33 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:50:44 cheers 04:50:44 dpeg: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 04:50:48 !messages 04:50:48 (1/4) rax said (20h 52m 40s ago): Talked about it with greensnark, we're going to make an alpha page. CDO statistics for released versions are already shown. 04:50:53 dpeg! <3 04:50:54 !messages 04:50:54 (1/3) doy said (16h 10m 57s ago): i reorganized it a bit http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:testing_and_polish_needed_for_0.6_release 04:51:02 Hi due, still up? :) 04:51:07 It's only 9pm. :) 04:51:08 very good 04:51:13 crazy aussies! 04:51:25 Nobody complained about my glyph changes. :) 04:51:25 !messages 04:51:25 (1/2) due said (11h 16m 21s ago): Yes, chatted to him last night about it. I've got some ideas for how it could be done, but they should probably wait for 0.7. 04:51:43 due: that's on conducts? 04:51:59 Hi dpeg! 04:52:05 Hi Eino! 04:52:11 dpeg: Yes, re: conducts. 04:52:18 03by * rc657462681ff 10/crawl-ref/source/ (stuff.cc stuff.h): yesno() gets a parameter to determine target GotoRegion. 04:52:20 Keskitalo: No compaints on the glyph changes? 04:52:24 03by * r9aa81663f040 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Fix altar prayer screen writing to message window. 04:52:59 dpeg: I'm almost finished troves :D 04:53:10 dpeg: I also fixed of flame of flame bug! And the weird glowing things! 04:53:24 due: I missed a trove yesterday, even though I was only 400 gold down :( 04:53:27 :( 04:53:35 took me 6k turns to collect the rest 04:53:37 Yeah, locking will be great. 04:53:47 by: will change the mechanism! 04:53:48 Just prerpare to give up your loot. :) 04:53:50 due will :) 04:53:59 Looks like gray "Glow" overrides blue "Glow". 04:54:15 due, by: no conduct stuff right now, please. That's 0.7 the earliest. 04:54:15 Keskitalo: working on this currently 04:54:20 dpeg: Yes, agree 04:54:25 due: More <3 04:54:45 But it'd be good to have conduct and piety-for-exploration in 0.7, as that will open further god stuff. 04:54:53 crazy aussies! 04:54:55 sorry 04:54:57 !messages 04:54:57 (1/1) doy said (6h 37m 28s ago): can we please close the sf trackers? 04:55:08 doy: but how? 04:55:25 dpeg: you, nat, or peter are the only ones with power over sf, as far as i know 04:55:50 Excellent 04:56:06 dpeg: You restrict possting of new items to developers and above 04:56:07 doy: well, that means me :| 04:56:14 03by * rb111ba73121c 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Update message.cc TODO list. 04:56:23 * dpeg is afraid of the SF jungke. 04:56:26 jungle 04:56:28 dpeg: If you give me ten to finish this for Eino, I can log in to one of my projects and work out the steps for you. 04:56:45 due: no, I can do it. :) 04:57:01 Hey 04:57:08 else if (get_contamination_level() > 0 04:57:08 && !yesno("Invisibility will do you no good right now; " 04:57:08 "use anyways?", false, 'n')) 04:57:11 I am afraid of all the other changes we then need: information, web pages etc. 04:57:30 dpeg: We just need a big notice on the tracker page saying "GO TO MANTIS, THESE ARE NOT THE BUGS YOU ARE LOOKING FOR", et 04:57:55 Should I do that, too? (Never done anything like that.) 04:58:43 hmmm, it just let me fire my breath weapon through my friendly freezing wraith 04:58:46 by: the messages todo is delightfully short :) 04:58:49 turning it non-friendly 04:58:52 without a prompt 04:58:59 dpeg: We should do a list of tasks; jpeg started one in December and it was good 04:59:02 Okay 04:59:04 Quick question 04:59:08 dpeg: those aren't even critical issues anymore I think 04:59:11 Anyone know where the invis checks are? 04:59:13 yay 04:59:27 my invisible cheques are in the drawer 04:59:36 by: The information/web pages re:tracker+ 04:59:49 It seems to indicate that contaminateion of more than 0 is enough to nullify invis. 04:59:52 But I don' tthink this is the case. 04:59:57 Can't remember where to check. 05:00:14 Keskitalo: hmm? 05:00:31 by: What did you refer to with "those aren't even critical issues anymore"? :) 05:00:35 due: should "the centaur shoots a glowing arrow of flame" be possible? 05:00:45 i thought we removed glowing from known-branded ammo 05:00:45 the message.cc todo list 05:00:49 Ahh, messagewindow todo, thanks :) 05:01:02 doy: Yes, it's still possible 05:01:09 doy: glowing is branded and enchanted 05:01:16 doy: so it's probably a +1 or somethign arrow of flam 05:01:18 dpeg: comments on my reorganization on the wiki? 05:01:23 due: okay 05:01:30 Keskitalo: *any* glow nullifies invis. 05:01:34 I guess you'd better check for you.backlit() 05:01:34 I honestly did not know this. 05:01:37 due: arf 05:01:43 what's missing that I'm aware of is saving more replies back to the message window so they scroll back nicely; I do these when they annoy me 05:01:43 I think this change is new, though. 05:01:50 ??? 05:01:50 [1/2913]: 05:01:54 due: maybe that's why invis is worthless 05:01:55 (: 05:01:59 I'm going to change it to 5 05:02:07 which is the threshold for Glow being yellow 05:02:18 instead of 0; anyone disagree? 05:02:46 due: checking contamination is not enough, you can be Coronaed, Sunlighted or TSO-haloed 05:02:55 kilobyte: I know 05:03:06 all of these (you.backlit()) break invis 05:03:08 kilobyte: bool player::backlit(bool check_haloed) const 05:03:08 { 05:03:08 return (get_contamination_level() > 0 || duration[DUR_CORONA] 05:03:08 || (check_haloed ? haloed() : false) 05:03:08 || duration[DUR_LIQUID_FLAMES]); 05:03:26 by: thought: maybe the + prompts could be cleared by any keypress, while --more-- requires space/escape 05:03:53 Glow only shows up as yellow if get_contamination_level() > 5 05:04:28 due: If contamination is staying the same as it is, showing up only on Yellow is fine probably. If it's made nastier, it should sow up at Gray 05:04:39 I'm for grey. 05:04:42 doy: could be done; also, we could display the --more-- like the + but maybe red? 05:04:47 Er, I'm for grey not cancelling invis. 05:04:48 doy: just a moment 05:05:07 sorear, dpeg, doy, by: Grey glow cancels invis, against my changing this? 05:05:13 And kilobyte, and Keskitalo! 05:05:19 grey not canceling invis would probably make me look at trying the spell more than never, and make that fixedart cloak useful 05:05:20 due: go for it 05:05:26 due: supported 05:05:42 Wait, you just said it both ways 05:05:48 oh nm 05:06:22 we could also just make corona cause yellow glow :) 05:06:28 (: 05:06:51 due: I am fine with grey glow cancelling invisibility. 05:07:00 This does not solve invis being broken, though :P 05:07:03 Hm. 05:07:06 dpeg: even if casting invisibility causes grey glow? 05:07:08 dpeg: no, it does that now, he want to make it now 05:07:12 *not 05:07:20 dpeg: I want to make it not. Casting invisibility causes grey glow 05:07:21 . 05:07:33 ??glow 05:07:33 glow[1/3]: Powerful enchantments have cumulative side effects on the body, represented by a magic contamination stat. When it reaches 5, you start glowing, and you can get mutations. But it decays, 1:40 per turn randomised - unless you are hasted or invisible. The mutations are 1/5 random, otherwise bad with a 50% chance of overriding mutation resistance. 05:07:37 ??glow[1] 05:07:37 glow[1/3]: Powerful enchantments have cumulative side effects on the body, represented by a magic contamination stat. When it reaches 5, you start glowing, and you can get mutations. But it decays, 1:40 per turn randomised - unless you are hasted or invisible. The mutations are 1/5 random, otherwise bad with a 50% chance of overriding mutation resistance. 05:07:40 Bah. 05:07:41 I am fine with any glow cancelling invis :) 05:07:53 dpeg: Then the spell should not cause contamination. 05:07:58 due: I vote grey glow *not* cancelling invis. 05:08:07 because that way any glow becomes meaningful which is good 05:08:09 dpeg: We were talking earlier about separating Glow and Contam statuses. 05:08:11 @??boring beetle 05:08:11 boring beetle (07B) | Speed: 6 | HD: 8 | Health: 24-64 | AC/EV: 13/4 | Damage: 35 | Res: 06magic(32) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 127. 05:08:28 huh, didn't realize they did 35 damage 05:08:32 @?boring beetle 05:08:32 boring beetle (07B) | Speed: 6 | HD: 8 | Health: 24-64 | AC/EV: 13/4 | Damage: 26 | Res: 06magic(32) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 110. 05:08:34 dpeg: I argue that it is bad that the same "Glow" is used for two things. 05:08:34 oh 05:08:35 my issue is that monsters know exactly where you are even you are invisible and they don'T have sense/se invis 05:08:36 heh 05:08:39 it says "very slightly" glowing 05:08:42 people keep changing things up 05:08:45 dpeg: Yes, but that's a separate issue. 05:08:48 dpeg: You may have been glowing very slightly! 05:09:03 !lg dpeg char=KeFE 05:09:04 dpeg: right now, using invisibility at all almost guarantees near immediate grey glow 05:09:05 5. dpeg the Destroyer (L16 KeFE), worshipper of Fedhas, slain by Snorg on Elf:1 on 2010-01-20, with 114745 points after 68452 turns and 6:33:00. 05:09:07 !log dpeg char=KeFE 05:09:07 5. dpeg, XL16 KeFE, T:68452: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/dpeg/morgue-dpeg-20100120-002213.txt 05:09:11 that would be seen, I guess 05:09:26 bool player::backlit(bool check_haloed) const 05:09:26 { 05:09:26 return (get_contamination_level() > 0 || duration[DUR_CORONA] 05:09:26 || (check_haloed ? haloed() : false) 05:09:26 || duration[DUR_LIQUID_FLAMES]); 05:09:29 Bah 05:09:34 @: invisible, flying, very slightly glowing, quick, quite resistant to magic, 05:09:36 grey glow just means your hands look a little weird to yourself 05:09:37 quite stealthy 05:09:44 dpeg: You were "very slightly glowing". That is why invis didn't work for you. 05:09:53 due: ah, that is okay 05:09:59 the game just didn't tell me :) 05:10:06 Okay 05:10:09 no, this is stupid 05:10:14 Well 05:10:15 So you are saying there is no way to get Invis without the slight glow? 05:10:21 yes 05:10:22 That'd be contradictory, of course. 05:10:22 dpeg: Yes, and going Invis causes slight glow. 05:10:25 currently no 05:10:32 invis causes a crazy amount of glow 05:10:38 on par with haste, i believe 05:10:42 We could nerf Invis glow. 05:10:43 I also don't think it's been like this always 05:10:50 by: Yes, this is new. 05:10:59 by: I think that backlit waschanged to check magical contamination 05:11:04 what's wrong with just starting backlit at yellow glow? 05:11:08 nerfing invis glow might be better, since then you couldn't as easily like Haste+Invis 05:11:13 yeah, backlit checking glow is new, i think 05:11:17 by: that would be the simplest solution 05:11:21 invis has always caused a lot of glow though 05:11:21 by: might be best under these circumstances 05:11:30 by: That's the one I've committed but haven't pushed 05:11:31 although I wonder if we really should display the grey Glow then 05:11:43 dpeg: No, we should, it's a good measure for whether or nnot you can haste yourself again, or whatever. 05:11:45 it has no function whatsoever 05:11:46 It's an indicator of what's to come 05:11:48 invis isn't absolute anyways, it gives slight clues no matter if you have grey glow or not 05:12:01 Like a warning 'It's not a problem yet, but it could become one' 05:12:02 dpeg: it allows you to tell when your residual glow has gone 05:12:06 dpeg: hitting yellow glow already means you're probably going to get mutated 05:12:07 also 05:12:10 having a warning about that is good 05:12:11 kilobyte: but the player gets no clues from an invisible monster! 05:12:16 Okay 05:12:20 due: okay, so go ahead 05:12:37 I need to run. :/ 05:12:38 dpeg: it's a valuable warning, without it, people have to rest extended periods to be sure they're not contaminated anymore 05:12:46 I think invis + haste glow should be such that you can't safely use the two together 05:12:47 kilobyte: don't trip on the ice 05:12:53 kilobyte <--> Keskitalo 05:13:03 Okay 05:13:06 Now 05:13:07 by: that is good thinking, yes 05:13:14 to that end, I would like the "stop invisibility" ability to be removed 05:13:15 Should we change grey glow to "Contam"? 05:13:23 no 05:13:27 That would utterly resolve the confusion. 05:13:39 snow up the balls :( 05:13:40 sure? 05:13:47 * kilobyte really envies lucky Aussie bastards. 05:13:47 I'd rather it stay as Glow I think 05:13:55 (Aside: Are sultanas useful for Fedhas or no?) 05:14:00 Twinge: yes 05:14:07 Twinge: they're fruits 05:14:12 Thought so, wanted to make sure. 05:14:46 due: we can and should add something on "Glow" in the enchantments appendix 05:14:48 Okay, summary of changes: if you are backlit (yellow glow, halo or corona), Invis shows up as grey ("useless"). 05:14:53 including what grey Glow is and what it is not 05:15:04 For Invis purposes, only yellow Glow counts for cancelling invis. 05:15:16 Keskitalo: Does this clear up confusion, you think? 05:17:19 also, @ and % should not give contradictory information: if Glow cancels Inv, say so 05:17:30 03due * rd15d277fe277 10/crawl-ref/source/l_dgnit.cc: Fix dgn.stash_items with new items table. 05:17:32 03due * radb224b38144 10/crawl-ref/source/output.cc: Grey-out the "Invis" status message when not invisible (backlit, etc). 05:17:34 03due * r5604b1e86a6e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (it_use2.cc item_use.cc player.cc): Backlit starts at contamination of 5, in line with yellow glow. 05:18:23 Hm 05:18:30 We could show "Transparent" instead of invis. 05:18:34 by, kilobyte: you're both here, so I can ask just as well. Could you live with trying the boosted ponderous items for now? If it won't work, we will change the whole approach, promised. 05:19:01 due: grey Inv or "Not Inv" is better 05:19:12 "Visible" :) 05:19:13 dpeg: Okay, not inv in the % and @. 05:19:16 Heh. :) 05:19:27 @??shadow 05:19:27 shadow (06p) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 505(drain strength) | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(20), 12cold+++, 03poison | XP: 28. 05:19:30 dpeg: --^ 05:19:40 "You are plain visible for everyone in the room. It is disgusting." 05:21:17 due: another option would be "Lit" if Inv+Glowing 05:21:33 "due, the farming lamp." 05:21:40 ohh 05:21:44 that wasn't a flayed ghost 05:21:46 it was a SHADOW 05:21:46 dpeg: Look! We changed shadows! :) 05:21:51 yes! 05:21:56 dolorous gave them lev, too 05:22:00 dpeg: I also did a lot of other glyph changes without an FR. 05:22:03 * due naughty. 05:22:35 not that it makes any sense to change it to the same colour as something else 05:22:38 but still 05:22:48 cbus: What? 05:22:49 cbus: same colour as what? 05:22:52 @??flayed ghost 05:22:53 flayed ghost (05p) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 0/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 07undead, evil, lev | Res: 06magic(58), 03poison | XP: 719. 05:23:00 cbus: Flayed ghosts are red; shadows are magenta. 05:23:07 colours are very good 05:23:09 looked the same 05:23:17 but cbus is always a bit conservative 05:23:26 dpeg: cbus staints for "complaints bus", no? ;) 05:23:30 * due hugs cbus. 05:23:35 cbus can include the compat file 05:23:38 If cbus isn't complaining about it, something's really wrong. 05:23:50 kilobyte: Actually, that's broken, you can't reglyph shadows at the minute. I need to fix that. 05:24:09 How about % just does't show invisible if you aren't actually invisible? 05:24:13 can't? Even if you specify space as x20? 05:24:22 kilobyte: Ooh, it might. I'll have to try that. 05:24:30 kilobyte: Thanks! 05:24:59 due: that's an improvement but it would be clearer if it said "not invisible" 05:25:08 invisible (but backlit)? 05:25:14 or so 05:25:21 or "invisible (but backlit and visible)" 05:25:27 Lehudib's Papyrus of Conjuration and Clay 05:25:29 and still no LS 05:25:32 LCS 05:25:33 thats a bug? 05:25:36 No. 05:25:39 a lehudib papyrus without lehudib 05:25:44 Random titles have nothing to do with the actual spell contents. 05:25:48 Unless they're vault-generated. 05:26:00 they should :) 05:26:00 cbus: Lehudib was broader than you may think 05:26:11 cbus: They won't. 05:26:14 Too much fuss and effort. 05:26:21 Lehudib books will always feature Earth, IIRC 05:26:36 dpeg: Hm, might do. 05:26:38 or even Earth and Con 05:26:45 Don't think they should always include LCS, though. That's broken. 05:26:52 due: your last one is best 05:27:00 due: no, of course not 05:27:19 dpeg, kilobyte: I can live with it; I don't have strong opinions on Che 05:27:25 although "invisible (but backlit and visible)" sounds a bit funny 05:27:50 by, kilobyte: would the bits I listed be hard to code? 05:27:50 Awkward sounding but accurate 05:28:07 dpeg, Twinge: It''s not going to appear very often, so I think that's fine. 05:28:15 dpeg: Also, are we applying n78291's jiyva patches as they come in? 05:28:16 dpeg: they don't sound hard to me 05:30:08 due: yes 05:30:14 due: Agree. 05:30:23 Okay, will do so 05:31:00 by: if you could do them, I'd test the god again. 05:31:24 Are we including Jiyva and Chei in 0.6? 05:33:03 aw, no shoals this game 05:34:44 later 05:35:08 ciao 05:35:48 -!- Zaba_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:35:55 hey Zaba_. 05:36:06 fine with invisibility being shut off by grey glow? preposterous! 05:36:22 (considering just about every source of invisibility gives you grey glow) 05:36:53 TGW: we just fixed that... 05:37:07 Twinge: ... we just fixed that? 05:37:14 and not "about every", that's "every" 05:37:23 Also, don't say preposterous like that, I'll lock you i a room with an ancient lich. 05:38:59 joke's on you, doors don't have locks 05:39:10 moin 05:40:11 " > ? ?Halve the irresistable part from 60% to 30%." 05:40:15 you totally ignored me :[ 05:40:20 Nerf nerf nerfity nerf. 05:40:30 It was 60% irresisitable, man! 05:41:18 you should remove so you can't read scrolls when confused 05:41:37 butterflies are useful 05:42:29 next you're going to say autopickup should exclude random uselessness 05:42:34 how do you change so the default targetting doesn't stop at target? 05:42:42 tgw, it doesnt? :) 05:42:46 :P 05:42:56 doesn't the default already not stop at target? 05:43:02 it does stop 05:43:12 you need to use ! to target 05:43:30 if you hit enter it wont stop 05:43:36 yeah 05:43:41 Bah, reversed logic 05:43:50 (I'd like an option to default to the ignore range modes however) 05:43:54 enter is on the other side of the keybord 05:43:56 I want it at . 05:43:57 :( 05:44:15 remind me where your keyboard was made 05:45:30 France. 05:47:21 ~t whatever whatever 05:47:53 Bah. 05:48:30 ... 05:48:34 Argh. 05:49:01 get_contamination_level is a function that rounds down your Glow to a numerical value; so glow of 5 = contamination of 1. Less = 0. 05:49:07 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:49:10 Aargh. 05:49:37 So grey glow doesn't actually affect invisible. 05:49:42 I should go to bed. 05:51:20 -!- by has quit ["later"] 05:54:48 due: it still checked for contamination > 0, not > 1. 05:55:23 kilobyte: <5 = 0. 05:55:26 but yeah, right now you need 60 points of glow to be considered glowing 05:55:39 ... doh 05:55:44 Yeah. 05:55:52 That's what confused me 05:56:27 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 05:56:33 Okay, fixed and pushed 05:56:51 push this! 05:56:52 ;) 05:56:53 03due * r74dced809b5a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (it_use2.cc item_use.cc player.cc): Revert "Backlit starts at contamination of 5, in line with yellow glow." 05:56:54 03due * rdc3098d78fc8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (output.cc player.cc): Indicate actual invisible status in @ and % screens. 05:57:04 * due pushes cbus in front of an ancient lich. 05:57:11 due, hey atleast thats not a sure daeth 05:57:14 due, worse with trucks 05:57:15 :D 05:58:23 How about a hydra that knocks down trees? 05:58:41 I'm sorry if I offended you, can you please make the hydra behave! ;) 05:58:55 you forg tthe part about using the trees as tooth picks after the meal btw :) 06:00:42 >D 06:01:50 hmm, this NaVM is getting boring around lair hmm :) 06:01:51 "You die...\nThe Lernaean hydra plucks a tree and picks its teeth with it.\n" 06:01:57 (I did melee a 7 headed hydra) 06:02:03 thats kinda suicidal 06:02:38 kilobyte: <3 06:02:42 with 90 hp, 3 long blade skill and a scimitar of flame 06:02:43 :I 06:02:56 it was at half health though (used my mana reserve on bolt of poisonthingie) 06:03:32 cbus: I've meleed 8-headed hydras with halberds before :D 06:04:36 twinge, on a caster? 06:09:54 nice Lair:4 with trees 06:09:59 except the f-ing oklob :) 06:11:58 cbus: On a Merfolk Chaos Knight of Xom I think? With an amulet of rage :) 06:12:18 The halberd was of reaching, not of flame, if that's what you're getting at 06:12:36 It worked pretty well, berserking them -- until it didn't, and there was a 20-headed hydra out for blood 06:14:06 -!- scarf has joined ##crawl-dev 06:14:32 YYYY 4 death yaks 06:14:36 S _ black mamba (wandering) 06:14:44 twinge, check pingpong 06:14:48 twinge, thats the char I did it with 06:14:51 not really the melee type ;D 06:16:50 * due points to ##crawl ;) 06:20:34 -You finish putting on the +4 robe of Oridghut {rF- EV+3 Int+1 Acc+2 Dam+4 06:20:34 +Stlth+}. 06:20:35 oops :D 06:22:44 -!- Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:56 dpeg: Monsters geta free turn when you open the door, and acid blobs are speed 14, so by the time you go to close it, it's too late. 06:36:51 back 06:37:08 Wb :) 06:37:15 !lg char=SpVM 06:37:18 7. bookofjude the Thaumaturge (L13 SpVM), worshipper of Fedhas, blasted by an acid blob (splash of acid) on Lair:6 on 2010-01-26, with 41664 points after 32647 turns and 1:56:57. 06:37:27 Even on a Spriggan ;) 06:37:46 due: yes, I want C and J in 0.6. Unlike a branch, the god don't get better with time. We need feedback on them. So if we think they're somewhat okay, into release with them. 06:37:56 Okay. 06:38:24 His descriptions and speech and probably ability names all need tweaking. 06:39:54 yes 06:40:01 C or J or both? 06:40:23 C 06:40:25 Jiyva isn't bad 06:40:26 due: this is why I suggested to enlarge the room if we want blobs in the back row 06:40:31 agreed 06:40:46 Hm, enlarging might help, but they're still ranged and fast, and one hit of acid is usually enough to murder. 06:40:50 @??azure jelly 06:40:51 azure jelly (12J) | Speed: 12 | HD: 15 | Health: 45-120 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 1212(cold), 1212(cold), 12, 12 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx | Vul: 04fire | XP: 2136. 06:41:00 I suppose azures aren't quite as fast. 06:42:15 Anyway, I'm off to bed! 06:42:42 !tell Eronarn: Start making a list of mobs you'd like to see speed adjsutments for then, and maybe start discussing them with due/dpeg/etc. I've started noting problem areas for sizes and masses. 06:42:42 I don't grok. Syntax is !tell PERSON MESSAGE. 06:42:47 !tell Eronarn Start making a list of mobs you'd like to see speed adjsutments for then, and maybe start discussing them with due/dpeg/etc. I've started noting problem areas for sizes and masses. 06:42:48 Twinge: OK, I'll let Eronarn know. 06:42:52 !messages 06:42:52 (1/1) due said (9h 49m 4s ago): mon-act.cc:1340 06:43:11 dpeg: Also, we'll still get "glowing x of flame" for ammo with pluses that aren't idenfitied 06:44:14 due: my arrows were just "glowing arrows" 06:44:22 cannot get the "glowing" to show? :/ 06:44:46 Oh 06:44:54 No, "TRhe XYZ shoots a glowing arow of flame" 06:44:58 Will look at making glowing show up 06:45:16 Wilil make it "arrow (glow)", similar to "arrow (flame)" or something like that. 06:45:26 or (glowing). 06:45:33 yes, (glowing) 06:45:41 not quite ideal, but definitely good enough 06:46:20 due: it matters because an archer will pick up all arrows he comes across and when faced with popcorn, he won't want the glowing arrows; but come an ogre, yes want 06:46:48 thought: shadow wraiths should be magenta to fit in 06:47:34 st__: Agree. 06:47:38 @??shadow wraith 06:47:39 shadow wraith (02W) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 30-80 | AC/EV: 7/7 | Damage: 2013(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(106), 03poison | XP: 824. 06:49:23 Every other shadow thing is magenta now. 06:49:52 isn't that done? 06:50:01 I saw exactly this reason about shadows lately? 06:50:43 dpeg: I didn't change shadow wraiths, forgot to check them. 06:52:15 ok 06:53:04 Will do though 06:54:33 !seen doy 06:54:33 I last saw doy at Tue Jan 26 11:32:58 2010 UTC (1h 21m 35s ago) saying aw, no shoals this game on ##crawl-dev. 06:54:44 Bah 06:54:52 !tell doy Excellent work on the 0.6 page. Looks like an actual roadmap now. 06:54:52 dpeg: OK, I'll let doy know. 06:55:10 due: ? 06:55:28 Donald says, "Do you even have room for potions with all those cards?" <3 06:55:28 Using portal descriptors to rebrand features doesn't work like it should. 06:55:40 Can't work out if it's broken Lua or broken C++. 06:56:04 due: for what is this needed? Troves? 06:56:12 dpeg: WizLabs. ;) 06:56:23 * due forsaking troves quickly before bed. 06:57:50 -!- Xiberia has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:42 * dpeg throws troves at due. 06:58:51 :) 06:59:11 * dpeg gets hit with unfinished botonos in return. Unfair! 06:59:29 Hehehe 06:59:32 No, we're close! 06:59:38 I had to write some code to fix the stash iterator, tough 06:59:45 and then I got a bit annoyed with stuff so I went and watched TV 06:59:55 Yes, botonos will come but I had no time for them lately, sorry. "Leadership duties!" 06:59:58 There is, in theory, no reason why they will not be done tomorrow 07:00:03 It is fine 07:00:08 I'm freezing WizLabs for now anyway 07:00:10 crawl > anything else > TV 07:00:10 Want to polish them for 0.6 07:00:13 * due perfectionist 07:00:15 get your priorities straight! 07:01:12 due: how hard would it be to have cigutovi monsters die in large, very long lasting mutagenic fogs? 07:01:13 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:20 by: hello again 07:01:22 hi 07:01:47 due: long lasting is needed to give conjurers something to think about 07:01:56 could also be eternal 07:03:06 dpeg: Difficult, I'm going to convert him to a proper monster, though. 07:03:14 there is no easy way to do any furhter customisation with Lua 07:03:25 as a real monster, him dying in fog is easy 07:03:41 screw Lua, make him a real monster if there's a hint of trouble 07:04:00 kilobyte: Exactly 07:04:42 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 07:07:59 due: did you see Haran's note on "glowing arrows"? 07:08:26 The new target interface is the shit. 07:08:30 Yeah 07:08:36 I'll wait until it's merged 07:09:08 It's really just a matter of updating itemname to print out glowing for the shortname of ammunition that's called when bbuilding the HUD 07:09:12 so it shouldn't affect the interface at all 07:09:24 can someone apply n78291's jiyva patch? 07:09:26 i am off, goodnight 07:10:17 nights! 07:10:31 I look forward to seeing a closed SF tracker when I get up ;) 07:10:43 pressure! 07:10:47 * dpeg succumbs. 07:10:49 * due hums that queen song 07:10:54 under pressure, uinder pressure! 07:11:16 There is a queen song "Ogre Lord" :) 07:11:31 We need an Ogre Lord unique. 07:11:35 dpeg: could you convince haran to merge the direction rewrite? 07:11:39 Also 07:11:52 I think I just got the Amalric unique idea 07:11:54 That is hilariously awesome 07:12:27 But we should base it off 07:12:42 by: should I? Didn't try yet. 07:12:44 King Bladud, he should be the opposite of irke and come with hogs also. 07:12:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bladud 07:12:51 The targeting stuff is very good. 07:13:29 He got cured by leprosy by bathing in hot mud with his pigs. <3 Bladud. 07:13:58 He also had wings and practiced necromancy. 07:14:00 by: asked 07:20:30 what's the direction rewrite about? 07:20:57 Zaba_: better targeting interface. 07:21:16 the current one is very clumsy, lots of needless lines are printed 07:22:10 ah, I see 07:22:41 03dolorous * re31823c89c56 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Add wording fixes. 07:26:27 s/anyways/anyway/ <3 07:26:51 "anyways" is a technical term meaning "More than one anyway" 07:28:48 Is it proper English? 07:29:23 Let me ask The Queen. 07:29:54 Her Britannic Majesty says that it's only correct if you spell it with a 'z' at the end. 07:30:43 However I would caution you that Her Britannic Majesty also swears by homeopathic remedies. 07:41:08 dpeg: thanks 07:42:29 does falling past a labyrinth (still?) start the timer? 07:51:35 -!- bhaak_ is now known as WizardOfYendor` 07:51:42 -!- WizardOfYendor` is now known as bhaak 07:56:07 bhaak: time for some Crawl dissing? :) 07:56:23 dpeg: you wanna start? 07:57:16 Nothing to diss about Crawl. Now, Nethack, on the other hand.. :) 07:57:18 L - The Amulet of Yendor 07:57:24 The amulet fuses to your forehead! 07:57:38 You are now marked as a Loser. 07:57:46 by: I wasn't even aware of the bug. 07:58:05 by: if you fall from D:4 to D:6, does D:5 get generated? 07:58:23 "crawl, where early-game characters are like velcro -- you throw 'em at the wall 'til one sticks" 07:58:24 :D 07:59:22 actually, that might be an american-only image (velcro wall tossing) 07:59:55 with spaghetti, we do it over here, too 08:00:43 "Nethack, the game for octogenarian losers." 08:01:18 "crawl: we're not actually dwarves, but we sure like axes and heavy armor" 08:01:39 "Arthritis from typing 'Elbereth' all day, brain damaged from memorising countless stupid spoilers, the Nethack zombies arrive." 08:01:42 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 08:02:06 what are the probabilities of going splat in crawl after one doesn't die after 5 minutes? 08:02:25 bhaak: depends on player. For you, about 90%. 08:02:30 * bhaak doesn't know. he hasn't reached the state yet 08:02:31 For zipcode, perhaps 20%. 08:02:42 "4 out of 5 masochists indicate Crawl is way better than flogging themselves" 08:02:52 hey, that's praise :) 08:03:09 hee 08:03:24 oh - I have a scrolling bug now 08:03:34 rob? 08:03:35 "Many Nethackers have developed a religious feeling towards the devteam, whose reawakening they liken to the second coming of Jesus Christ." 08:03:53 crawl: where the interface does everything for you 08:04:06 Nethack: where the interface tries to kill you. 08:04:48 hehe 08:05:00 "hi, and welcome to #humorouspissingcontest" :D 08:05:14 poor ##crawl-dev 08:05:55 I wouldn't take jokes from the inventor of "detect foot" :) 08:06:04 they need a break from trying to parse crawl's source code anyway 08:06:11 "The only really good bit in Nethack is Sokoban." 08:06:15 take that! 08:06:17 dubious distinction of being more spaghetti than NH :) 08:06:42 Suggest New God of Dealing Probability for Luck (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=566) by Jinhlk 08:06:48 bhaak: "detect foot" or even "count feet"? 08:07:00 hey, god ideas on Mantis 08:07:05 home at last :P 08:09:35 -!- Anym has joined ##crawl-dev 08:10:00 Hi all. 08:10:31 Hi Markus 08:10:52 Thanks for the link. 08:10:57 I have two clowns here who tell me Nethack is the best game in the world! 08:10:59 dpeg: the average age is almost as low as the one in the crawl poll. if you take away the conservative crowd from rgrn, it might actually be lower :-) 08:11:25 bhaak: yes, I was surprised about how many old players we have. 08:11:34 dpeg: *Sporkhack, actually. :D 08:11:36 I think that's a feature of the genre, not of individual games. 08:11:48 only old people have the patience to die so often while micromanaging how they die ;D 08:12:22 bhaak: no action, lots of time, high replayability (i.e. you only learn one game thoroughly, rather than many a bit) -- the perfect game for the golden generation! 08:13:10 NetHack: so good, it gets translated! 08:13:15 It's a crime that Nethack still brainwashes the minds of innocent youngsters. 08:13:36 Crawl: so good, it gets developed! 08:13:49 crawl: teaching youngsters that game-playing should hurt the user :D 08:13:50 NetHack all the way! On your PSP, on your iPhone, on your DS, on your $EVERYTHING 08:14:11 03due * r1d117d8143f9 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Bring shadow wraith colour in line with other shadow creatures. 08:14:16 Nethack: so cheap you can play it on your microwave. 08:14:33 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 08:14:48 that's "well-programmed" 08:16:19 So far, there just those two textfiles (and a map view for one of them), right? 08:16:54 Nethack: where ten years of nothing is progress. 08:16:54 Anym: you can make you're one visualisation with the datasets on that site (if you have enabled java) 08:17:03 *own 08:17:12 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 08:17:37 I'm not as old as dpeg, that's why I'm doing the graphs in R not in pstricks :) 08:17:45 hehe 08:17:46 Ah, I see. 08:18:00 I'm almost finished, can only be a matter of months :) 08:18:10 bhaak: just like the devteam :P 08:19:48 Nethack: kitchen sinks, tourists, rubber hoses, gunyoki, master mind, all in one game. 08:20:42 oh, I got the abyssal rune in 85 turns last night 08:20:57 dpeg: you say it like it's a bad thing! 08:20:59 just as part of my experiments in surviving the abyss with an L1 character 08:21:10 conclusions: the abyss is easier than D:1 for an atheist SpCK 08:21:14 03j-p-e-g * r32358e642ebe 10/crawl-ref/source/travel.cc: Regard known shafts as safe for travel. 08:21:28 03j-p-e-g * r7a32c532e27f 10/crawl-ref/source/wiz-you.cc: &^ now also resets penance and handles excommunication for piety 0. 08:22:13 scarf: I doubt that. 08:22:29 dpeg: D:1 has corridors, and kobolds with darts 08:22:39 I only now realise that you can make puns with master mind and master mind flayers. 08:22:45 corridors = you can't run round things, darts = you get peppered with them 08:22:48 scarf: abyss has everything else 08:23:10 dpeg: only about 3 of the abyss inhabitants are potentially dangerous, unless you run into a dead end 08:23:13 you just run from everything else 08:23:20 admittedly, this rather relies on being a spriggan 08:23:25 there should be an achievement "Masterminded his way into the castle" 08:23:37 bhaak: yes 08:23:39 many of the weaker demons are even kitable 08:24:35 bhaak: I got the castle when I was still unspoiled and all this fuss about the tune (oracle, two god messages?) are somewhat stupid, when you just can use the backdoor. 08:25:36 dpeg: ignore the god messages, even a really experienced NetHack player needs to put in an inordinate amount of effort to get them to come up 08:25:38 dpeg: or the frontdoor! 08:25:42 it's sort-of like controlling Xom, but harder 08:25:58 bhaak: sure, but the backdoor is so much easier :) 08:26:15 and music instruments aren't that easy to come by 08:26:18 scarf: it is not clear if the option to start in the Abyss will stay but I am not worried about Sp in Abyss. 08:26:34 dpeg: the option to start in the Abyss I like, but it doesn't matter as you can just abandon Lugonu 08:26:47 personally I think it would be an improvement if the rune could generate there, after a certain time period 08:26:51 rather than having to leave and abandon 08:26:57 Explanation for somebody who hasn't played (much) NH? 08:27:00 scarf: if we remove starting in the Abyss, we also remove Lugonu as starting god 08:27:05 crawl can't talk, it has rickrolling :D 08:27:10 Anym: the castle's one of the fixed levels in NetHack 08:27:21 lorimer: there have been complaints about this. 08:27:31 Anym: broken like anything else. 08:27:32 there are several ways in, but the two most common are through the front door (a drawbridge), and through the back door (a gap in the wall) 08:27:37 there are always complaints, i'm not surprised 08:27:46 to reach the back door, you have to levitate around the moat; the front door is easily reached but hard to open 08:27:47 probably from the "crawl is srs game!!!111" crowd 08:28:02 Fortunately, there are no complaints about Nethack, the game of the free. 08:28:12 by? 08:28:15 precisely! Though there are complaints about detect foot. 08:28:16 in slashem, the water at the castle is Lethe water :D 08:28:21 and one of the possible prayer effects is for a god to tell you "To open the door to the Castle, you must play the correct tune!" 08:28:26 and "bag of poo"! 08:28:37 back 08:28:42 Napkin: by due, among others 08:28:59 then in theory a second prayer effect can tell you what the tune /is/, but AFAIK nobody's managed to trigger that one for years 08:29:00 arg, no - I was asking for rob 08:29:05 as the circumstances that set it up are just too implausible 08:29:09 rob, your nick is very confusing! ;) 08:29:29 Indeed! 08:29:33 scarf: Thanks. 08:29:40 Disable this by setting show_more=false. \o/ 08:29:41 And that's the only way to learn the tune? 08:29:43 nevermind, rob :) 08:29:51 actually, i get a lot fewer complaints about the bag of poo :) 08:29:53 Anym: no, the castle gives you clues if you play the wrong tune 08:29:54 mostly 'cos it's useful 08:29:58 Mastermind-style 08:30:02 Anym: no, you can play master mind at the castle's gate 08:30:04 Ah, OK. 08:30:07 and there's an Oracle hint "A musical mastermind can open the door to the castle" 08:30:15 Now I see. 08:30:19 scarf: actually, i get the actual tune occasionally 08:30:21 Anym: there's also the possibility that your God spoils you and tells the tune. 08:30:24 lorimer: wow 08:30:26 scarf: from the prayer-effect, that is. it's just random 08:30:30 Rickrolling? Where? 08:30:38 I know, but people normally aren't triggering positive prayer-effects deliberately 08:30:42 as they save them for when they're in trouble 08:30:45 Anym: Your orc says: "Never gonna let you down." 08:30:58 Ah, OK. 08:31:03 dpeg: re shafts and portals: I remember people talking about this; it's possible that intermediate levels need to be generated to be able to ensure connectivity 08:31:32 by: ah, I see. 08:31:38 dpeg: it's also possible that this was fixed, I'm just not sure 08:31:43 Why I usually would count myself into the "crawl is srs game!!!111" crowd, that's totally fine with me. 08:31:47 Anym: more specifically, there's a chance for your orcs to recite any of the first three 'obvious' lines. which leads to the remote possibility that your orcs will rickroll you if you have a lot of orcs 08:31:53 Anym: note that nearly all this is irrelevant for an unspoiled player, as they'll either think of levitating round (which is a relatively obvious thing to do), or zap a wand of opening / spell of knock at the door (also relatively obvious) 08:32:00 by: so we could have a level flag "virgin" or so, and let all timers only start when the player enters them. 08:32:05 It is a reference but it doesn't seem contrived. 08:32:19 It's a sneaky reference, yes. 08:32:38 Especially since your orcs are ... well... pretty sappy in their enthusiasm for you anyway 08:32:39 Anym: that's what I thought, too 08:32:46 dpeg: it's definitely fixable, but I would like to first know whether it's actually broken :) 08:32:48 it's telling that I don't actually know enough about rickrolling to recognise the lines on sight out of context 08:33:00 lorimer: hey, how would *you* treat your messias? 08:33:00 scarf: that's why it's sneaky! :) 08:33:14 lorimer: if you rickroll someone but they don't notice, does it count as a rickroll?# 08:33:27 dpeg: I am an atheist, so i lack perspective. :D but the orcs seem consistent with cultists everywhere 08:33:35 scarf: Dunno. It is pretty darn amusing though. 08:33:46 OMG, rickrolling, that's just mean 08:34:28 * lorimer is the sort who thinks that well-placed, subtle humor can improve a game, so he is biased 08:34:29 Explicit real-world references such as komodo dragons and gila monsters bother me much more, but that's just me. :-P 08:34:34 unnethack only has portal references 08:34:34 anyway, I think I managed to work out my argument about what was wrong with Crawl, and I'm going to drop it, on the basis that I think any solution to it would necessarily break Crawl's design principle 08:34:51 scarf: expliquez-lá? 08:34:52 lorimer: only if it's properly TDTTOEd, though 08:35:07 Anym: oh, you won't be happy about the recent changes: snakes are now anacondas etc. 08:35:40 I never understood the big fuss about rickrolling, actually. But I think it's nice the Internet has moved from fooling people to look at goatse.cx to looking at Rick Astley. 08:35:43 basically, the issue is that you have to remove opportunities for creativity from Crawl, because either it would be a broken strategy or it would be so weak as to not be worth doing 08:35:47 lorimer: well-placed, subtle humor like random themed engravings on dlvl 23 and 42? :) 08:36:11 bhaak: Perhaps less subtle. More like the bag of poo. :D 08:36:14 * lorimer ducks 08:36:26 dpeg: Oh, that's a good change. 08:36:50 I'm just not happy about the anacondas in general, they're something like 20 times harder to beat than the rest of Snake combines 08:36:50 *combined 08:36:53 but maybe that's just me 08:37:08 should just add other dangerous snake creatures 08:37:20 curare for yellow snakes 08:37:38 snakes with arms that can dual-wield triple swords 08:37:43 dpeg: Much better for differentiating the snakes. 08:37:57 Iskenderun's snakes of destruction 08:38:09 Anym: Ah, I see. You don't mind real world fauna, only real world *places*. 08:38:39 syllogism: perhaps; the ability to one-hit a typical 3 is rather unsettling for something that appears as high as Snake as a regular spawn rather than a boss 08:38:41 dpeg: Yeah. 08:38:48 especially considering how easy everything else is there 08:38:49 Naga snake charmers? 08:39:16 due: many thanks. But now: bed! 08:39:34 I think my issue with the anacondas is that unlike most other monsters, it isn't obviously a case of "if I had a different playstyle this thing wouldn't be so bad" 08:39:48 it's "I can't think of a sensible way to beat this even if I was playing a perfect character for beating anacondas in particular" 08:39:57 @?? anaconda 08:39:57 anaconda (15S) | Speed: 18 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 4/16 | Damage: 30 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(44) | XP: 1136. 08:40:59 maybe they should be a little easier to hit with a wand of cold 08:41:00 the issue is simply just fast (precluding ranged attacks/kiting), hard-hitting (making melee very dangerous), enough hp that it kills you first 08:41:31 I didn't know about the cold weakness, but I think I was using an axe of cold by chance and it wasn't helping 08:41:32 how does their MR compare to other things? 08:41:41 scarf: it would slow them 08:41:44 There should be a portal vault, The Giant Anaconda's Belly, filled with rodents and stuff. 08:41:50 by: if I hit 08:42:02 given that they could three-hit me, when they were in melee range I was summon-running rather than fighting 08:42:12 also, they're explicitly not poison resistant, hence vulnerable to mephitic cloud 08:42:22 aagh mephitic 08:42:30 !lg * place=snake s=killer 08:42:40 1694 games for * (place=snake): 558x a greater naga, 267x a grey snake, 142x , 82x a naga mage, 74x a black snake, 59x a naga warrior, 47x Frederick, 46x Boris, 43x a guardian naga, 37x Margery, 31x a naga, 28x Xtahua, 17x Rupert, 16x an azure jelly, 15x Norris, 14x Snorg, 14x Agnes, 12x a grey snake zombie, 11x a death ooze, 9x Louise, 8x Saint Roka, 7x an orc knight, 6x an Executioner, 6x Roxann... 08:42:56 no anacondas listed at all, probably because they're so recent 08:43:04 grey snake 08:43:09 oh, renamed 08:43:24 the new name's better, btw 08:44:04 summoning's a rather-too-easy way to deal with Roxanne too, btw, although I don't think that's a problem 08:44:28 if it didn't make the game easier, I think lowering anaconda EV a bit would be a good change 08:44:56 you can always make the game harder again by adding something else to compensate 08:45:18 scarf: no, it is not that simple 08:45:22 Yeah, with the coloured snakes, I always had a hard time remembering which was which. 08:45:37 dpeg: well, ok, I thought by meant in the literal sense of "this makes the game easier" 08:45:51 personally, I'm currently far more scared by "grey snake" than by "anaconda" :) 08:45:55 trying to bring it to the original difficulty, especially balanced across classes, is a lot more difficult I agree 08:46:35 Does being fast fit with anacondas? 08:47:10 hmm, maybe you could make anacondas spawn with a bodyguard of regular snakes? that would make them easier 08:47:19 as the regular snakes would get in the bodyguard's way 08:47:24 *in the anaconda's way 08:47:31 and it wouldn't attack them 08:47:54 (on a similar note: a version of spammals that created /hostile/ rats would possibly be as or more useful than a version that created friendly ones) 08:49:17 we will not go there 08:49:39 dpeg: reasoning? interested, rather than disagreeing 08:49:50 I meant as a separate spell, rather than as a spammals nerf 08:50:49 why don't jewellery colours distinguish between artefact and non-artefact? 08:52:28 by: they often do 08:52:33 03j-p-e-g * r889197c22fc7 10/crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Remove special case for examing gold piles, now always list quantity. 08:52:54 I'm getting a lot of bright yellow plain rings, etc. 08:53:20 scarf: this is metagaming: abusing the AI... 08:55:37 dpeg: monsters attacking you but not each other is a constant of Crawl 08:55:49 it's relatively unrealistic, but I can cope with that for gameplay reasons 08:55:50 anacondas aren't very deadly once you know about them 08:55:56 you've plenty of tools by then 08:56:08 my anaconda don't want none unless you got buns, hon 08:56:27 however, it makes little sense to make players deal with being the target of every monster on the level, /and/ forbid them from exploiting that fact 08:59:44 scarf: that's silly reasoning 09:00:16 "The world hates you! But you don't realise it!" 09:00:50 It is a video game staple since 1770. 09:01:34 dpeg: oh, it's fine as a staple 09:01:50 just, it's a rule of the universe that the player should be aware of, I think 09:01:59 scarf: your proposal would trivialise a whole bunch of (late game) opposition. Won't happen. 09:02:19 oh, the summon hostile spammals spell 09:02:25 yes 09:02:35 quite possibly, in which case it shouldn't be implemented 09:03:17 (personally, I think it's a crazy point in itself that summon-hostile-spammals /could/ be broken...) 09:03:28 03kilobyte * r81f0a6646742 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-stuff.cc monster.cc): Make IOODs (and rolling boulders when we'll get them) immune to some effects. 09:03:29 03kilobyte * r20d12b36ceb1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-project.cc monster.cc): Don't warp IOODs during abyss shifts, Time Step/stairs displacing, etc. 09:03:31 incidentally, does Dorokhle's Tomb work in the Abyss? it seems rather broken there 09:03:31 enough said 09:03:45 because it'll go away by itself after a while 09:04:05 the card is unproblematic since finite 09:04:15 the dungeon ecosystem has already battled itself to equilibrium. The player disturbs all these settled habitats! 09:05:03 should the archer statue be immune to disintegration? 09:07:06 03kilobyte * r290e404fd6be 10/crawl-ref/settings/052_monster_glyphs.txt: 0.5.2 compat glyphs: shadows -> ' ', shadow wraiths -> blue 'W'. 09:07:44 scarf: it works just fine, the Tomb doesn't store any state, merely changes terrain 09:08:10 by: I'd think so. To be honest, I am not happy about disintegration one-shotting some statues and doing less (or nothing) to others. 09:08:14 kilobyte: that's the point, you don't have to worry about escaping with a mob of monsters around you 09:08:18 Need a better solution some time. 09:08:18 by: I think most statues should be affected, if not insta-death, at least strongly damaged 09:08:22 scarf: not a problem 09:08:25 you just stay there until you get a terrain flip, no more tomb, no more monsters 09:08:47 just a little more consistency would be nice; I don't care whether they actually work well or not 09:08:51 currently statues are either 1-shotted or totally immune 09:09:12 yes 09:09:15 (to both) 09:20:01 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:20:13 grr there's someone still signed in as cryptic 09:21:03 take another nick 09:21:08 for example cpeg 09:22:24 lol :) 09:22:54 They've quite literally been /nick'd to Cryptic for days straight, I try late at night and early in the morning, they still are logged in. 09:23:03 Well, not logged in, but /nick'd 09:23:30 they might even have registered the nick? 09:23:51 by, its registered, but no one has authenticated with it in almost 8 weeks 09:24:02 It could be them, but IDK why they wouldn't auth as it. 09:24:36 Last addr : n=cryptic@c-67-167-200-52.hsd1.il.comcast.net 09:24:52 Someone needs to cut out comcast service in all of illonois so I can /nick to it when he gets kicked off. 09:24:54 criptyc 09:30:15 ohwell, I'll catch it later I spose...How's everyone else's morning going? 09:30:16 -!- scarf has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:35:27 i don't see what the big deal is about anacondas 09:35:27 doy: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 09:35:39 if you can't deal with them, then maybe you shouldn't be in snake yet 09:35:50 guardian/greater nagas can be just as dangerous 09:35:54 by: it occured to me that we have much more space horizontally than vertically (in the message area). What about displaying the --more-- in the lower right corner? 09:36:18 although the + is good as well 09:36:33 we could do that, yes, just overwriting whatever is there 09:36:33 also, with the proper algorithm, nethack's castle mastermind takes an average of 5 turns or so to solve 09:36:51 not sure whether that would go well with the tutorial messages, however 09:37:05 and I don't really want to redo the linebreaking to take into account a last shorter line 09:37:30 yeah, the + is nice because it doesn't require any reformatting 09:37:32 !messages 09:37:32 (1/1) dpeg said (2h 42m 40s ago): Excellent work on the 0.6 page. Looks like an actual roadmap now. 09:37:36 doy: there will be a very silly phase in the backlog 09:37:48 dpeg: yes, already read through it 09:37:49 (: 09:38:01 by: could we combine the dissecting/(dis)robing lines? 09:38:07 And didn'T we have that already? 09:38:20 doy: I tried to defend Crawl as good as I could! 09:38:27 (: 09:38:39 lorimer's wrong about crawl source being worse than nethack though 09:38:40 (; 09:39:17 doy: oh, you know both, right? 09:39:29 i've read both, at least 09:39:35 and actually implemented things in crawl, so 09:39:36 (: 09:39:46 dpeg: it is: channel.multiturn = mute 09:40:06 03j-p-e-g * r889760fbfad7 10/crawl-ref/source/quiver.cc: Don't autoquiver the wielded weapon (if it's similar to the quiver one). 09:40:15 by: what do you think about compressing just multiturn messages? 09:40:35 i think that would be more sane than compressing messages between turns in general 09:40:37 seriously, maybe it's possible; we just need to not flush messages when not prompting 09:40:42 and would catch all the useful cases 09:41:11 by: multiturn=mute just suppress them!? 09:41:19 yes 09:41:29 it was a joke 09:41:34 I don't want that. For new players, seeing how long actions take is crucial. 09:41:42 dpeg, I wanted to clear this with you: apparently wood golems are not typically a valid choice as a polymorph target (I havn't narrowed down *exactly* why, yet). Do you still want that to be the valid destination form of a Naga under the effects of S2S? 09:41:45 really, i don't think =mute should be supported at all 09:41:51 by: but I remember having seen "...something... (x3)" in the messages 09:42:07 dpeg: that's for messages that occur just on one turn 09:42:15 ah! 09:42:21 so bees missing 09:42:23 well, hmmm, =mute does have uses i guess 09:42:24 yes 09:42:32 Cryp71c: I don't know what you're talking about :) 09:42:49 There's a road map? 09:43:06 by: Haran is rewriting old lines in the message area for targeting. Couldn't we do the same with eating etc. duplications? 09:43:19 dpeg, nevermind :) Snakes to sticks will turn naga into wood golems :P 09:43:19 Anym: only for the sprint towards release 09:43:30 Cryp71c: that's good 09:43:32 dpeg: no, Haran is clearing the message area and refilling it 09:43:41 by: ah 09:43:44 dpeg: And has that started yet? 09:43:48 yes 09:44:02 ETA 30/01 09:44:11 dpeg: and of course, anything is technically possible 09:44:29 s/pos/fea/ 09:44:44 dpeg: Wow! That's soon! 09:45:14 was a joke :) 09:45:24 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:testing_and_polish_needed_for_0.6_release 09:46:04 by: currently, each action of dissection requires one --more-- 09:46:07 dpeg: actually, there's some code that allows overwriting the previous message in a somewhat clean way; I'm not sure that's the best approach for this case however 09:46:55 by: what do you propose? 09:47:08 kill almost all uses of flush_prev_message 09:47:16 dpeg: You keep using that word, "joke". I don't think it means what you think it means. ;-) 09:47:24 what does flush_prev_message do? 09:47:28 that way, the current message condensation code should also apply to messages from different turns 09:47:38 it makes sure the last message is written out 09:47:46 for whatever reason, people really seemed to like flushing things to the screen as soon as possible 09:47:46 I'll give it a try 09:47:55 this makes it hard to do any kind of display optimization 09:48:00 and is really unnecessary in general 09:48:08 doy: I think at some point, flush_prev_message was a reliable way to get a refresh :) 09:48:17 by: which is also unnecessary! 09:48:18 (: 09:49:10 by, doy: I cannot really comment, but a way to get fewer more's from trivial things would be nice. 09:49:18 i agree! 09:49:37 once this is done and haran's branch is merged, we should get some people to test out hunters again 09:49:46 I always test hunters. 09:49:48 because they were especially painful a few weeks ago 09:50:48 dpeg, also in the course of working on the Xom code (and after speaking with johnanna) a small rework of the probability logic for Xom's good/bad actions might be appropriate 09:52:54 Cryp71c: how? 09:54:25 is xom going to change his inner workings for every single release now? 09:54:30 is this going to become a Thing? 09:54:47 doy: explain? 09:54:58 dpeg: hasn't xom been redone for 0.4 and 0.5 already? 09:55:12 yes 09:55:25 dpeg, the current logic which picks what action to be taken is a series of if / else if statements 09:55:35 but I don't think Cryp71c is talking about a major change 09:55:38 in xom_is_good (good act) there are 17 possible choices 09:55:48 Cryp71c: yes, that is classical crawl style 09:55:55 the first choice also has several (random) cantrips which could also be chosen 09:56:04 creating interesting probability distributions in a very opaque way 09:56:12 As you go down the list of 17 items, some of tension > 0, tension > 5, etc. 09:56:26 someone working out the chances and simply assigning them would be much better, of course 09:56:26 however ALL of them have a x_chance_in_y in the else if as well 09:56:33 convert the whole thing to some random_choose_weighted? 09:56:49 by: if possible, yes 09:57:03 Cryp71c: of course it's random. What else? 09:57:07 dpeg, its not random. 09:57:11 as you go down the list 09:57:40 the x_chance_in_y gets larger and larger inadvertently making the lower choices less likely except at high interest / high piety. 09:57:56 sure about "inadvertently"? 09:58:07 nobody every intended a flat distribution 09:58:14 rather, we like loooong tails 09:58:48 well, not sure about 'indavertently' but Johnna even admitted that the pattern was set by the last person who redid the Xom code (can't recall hsi name atm) and everyone else thereafter just followed it, without considering the statistical ramificiations of continuing that particular system. 09:59:10 I fully agree with making the numbers more transparent (by having plain chances). I am not sure I agree with tweaking the chances. 09:59:28 dpeg, yeah the chances may not necesarily need to be changed 09:59:32 Cryp71c: Xom is in the game for ten years or so. 09:59:44 But the means by which we're getting those chances are very...non-apparent. 10:00:11 Cryp71c: this is not peculiar to Xom. DS mutations were derived in the same opaque way. 10:00:26 dpeg, ah, I wasn't aware. 10:00:35 So: prior to changing any numbers, the system should be transparent. After that, we can review the actual chances much better. 10:01:00 Cryp71c: lots of if chains. Easy to code, hard to assess. But makes for nicely long tails. 10:02:14 and it's not like you can't stick new cases in the middle of the chain, if you want to have a better probability 10:02:45 03by * r1b0e16055887 10/crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc macro.cc main.cc shopping.cc view.cc): Remove a whole lot of flush_prev_message(). 10:02:52 this worked delightfully well 10:03:07 by: i noticed the same thing when i removed all those calls to refresh() 10:03:11 things just work 10:03:12 (: 10:03:27 doy: in this case, things just work so well that multiturn messages just get condensed :) 10:03:43 hah, nice 10:03:50 dpeg, so what do we want the probabilities of stick'ing each naga / snake (presuming we're already in the actual snakes_to_sticks function) 10:04:07 by: they should be condensed in a different way though, probably 10:04:18 to indicate that they're multiple turns, not just multiple messags 10:04:34 that would be easy enough to change, though I'm not sure it's necessary 10:04:48 by: yay. Also, Haran will merge tonight. 10:05:19 dpeg, he's been working on interface changes, hasn't he? Is that what he's merging? 10:05:40 Cryp71c: the targeting interface, specifically 10:05:44 ah, that's right 10:09:52 Cryp71c: there is no problem with doing it to all snakes/serpents/nagas in view 10:11:20 dpeg, so...100% chance? 0_o 10:11:34 That might seem problematic in...say, snake. 10:11:58 The probability is just under 8% under high piety 10:12:10 well, I guess it averages out to 2% 10:12:24 so guaranteed to happen wouldn't be so bad. 10:13:20 Bye everyone. 10:13:29 -!- Anym has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 10:14:42 orb of detsruction is pretty cool btw :) 10:15:17 how powerful is it, by the way? 10:15:49 Cryp71c: well, the point is that the chance for the effect itself is small. When the effect is chosen, it should affect all snakes. A true inverse of the spell. 10:15:51 I need to try it next game; my impression is it will win the game for you 10:15:55 cubs likes it, better nerf it 10:16:00 dpeg, with regard to placing sticks, should there ever be branded sticks, should it be limited to arrows only, or could any manner of stick spawn (quarterstaff, etc.) 10:16:21 by: yeah, it seemed pretty strong when i heard about it initially, i don't know if it's been changed since then 10:16:32 Cryp71c: reverse the table from the spell: small snakes -> arrows, larger ones -> clubs etc. 10:16:38 my thought was to make it conj/summ 10:16:58 I guess this is why it's on "needs testing" in doy's list :) 10:17:06 that was me :) 10:17:07 by: interesting! 10:17:23 so we need an IOOD page? 10:17:33 by: i don't think conj/summ fits that well 10:17:57 i think if it's too strong, toning down damage should work fine 10:18:08 although i'd have to see how it actually plays out 10:19:02 hmmm 10:19:25 you seem to get the 'yred grants you undead servants' message a turn before they actually show up 10:19:39 yes 10:20:34 I never filed that, but I've noticed it to 10:20:44 filed! 10:20:45 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21:29 Cryp71c: in general, a single rare but flashy effect is better than many tiny effects 10:22:17 premature messages for yred gifts (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=567) by doy 10:22:25 "Blork your orc zombie" 10:22:27 heh 10:22:35 -!- by has quit ["later"] 10:23:41 Anyone know of a function to create items? There's one in mon-gear.cc but that's for equipping a monster and may not work( it needs a mid) for my purposes. 10:23:58 what makes OOD strong is a) it's very easy to cast b) it blocks attacks 10:24:18 although the damage *is* very high 10:24:29 lowering its hp should be the first step 10:24:35 st__: the blocking attacks part is what makes it unique though, i don't think we necessarily need to remove that 10:24:38 doy: sounds as if "to blork" is a verb 10:24:45 but yeah, lowering the hp would probably be good 10:24:53 doy: definitely agreed 10:25:03 and maybe either raising the spell level or lowering the damage 10:25:09 folks, may I ask you to comment here? 10:25:09 it's a really fun spell 10:25:11 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:magic:spell:iood 10:25:36 dual schooling Sum/Con would be a novelty 10:26:09 dpeg: i'll comment once i've actually used it in a game, i'm not really basing my comments on anything 10:26:19 dpeg: conjure ball lightning would be a better fit 10:26:29 my (not yet) comments are based on watching =) 10:26:40 doy: mention that, too 10:26:42 but if i remember correctly that was moved from conj/summ to straight conj because it didn't feel much like a summoning spell 10:26:54 and iood feels even less so than ball lightning 10:27:26 CBL surely is Air/Con? 10:27:53 dpeg: yeah, you're right 10:28:00 i think it used to be air/conj/summ 10:28:26 well, Air/Con/Sum level 8 == very hard 10:28:29 yes 10:28:34 nobody used it 10:28:35 (: 10:28:36 IOOD is only Con and lower level 10:28:40 yeah 10:28:43 so slapping on Sum would be an option 10:28:51 (disregarding flavour) 10:29:28 it doesn't make sense to me that you simultaneously conjure it and summon it ? 10:30:56 Mu_: yeah, i'm not a fan of the flavor side of it, but it's probably worth considering from a balance standpoint 10:32:11 Sum/Earth 10:32:19 wrong stair color on overmap (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=568) by doy 10:32:40 the good thing is that to me, as a German, the words mean much less than to you 10:33:07 to me, Conjuration == spell in the Con class, not necessarily about "conjuring up stuff" 10:33:25 doy: is that about the recolouring or a new thing? 10:35:01 grrrr...there doesn't seem to be an easy function for creating items, does anyone know of such a function that I'm just missing? I've grepped half a dozen files looking for something of the sort. 10:36:44 Cryp71c: could you check how items are placed during level generation? 10:38:10 dpeg, I could, I'm not sure where level generation code is even at 10:38:56 Cryp71c: another instance is a mimic turning into an item upon death 10:39:28 doy: no need to reply, saw the bug 10:47:46 -!- Twinge- has joined ##crawl-dev 10:55:24 doy, trying to follow dpeg's advice on creating an item, but I can't find a clear, concise example of an item being created, do you know of such a circumstance anywhere in the source? 10:56:04 is there some card effect that creates an item? 10:56:22 well acquirement 10:56:26 ..hrm, not sure. ATM i'm looking at the acquirement code 10:56:44 what about creating chunks from a corpse? 10:57:24 ..wait a second.. 10:59:17 muwahaha? items() 10:59:21 looks like it has potential. 11:04:23 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:45 !tell due Hellbinder wizlab got a hellbinder named upun, but referred to him as "The Upun." one successful meph dunks him in his lava, so his room might need adjusting. 11:04:46 Mu_: OK, I'll let due know. 11:07:15 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:10:34 -!- st__ has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:11:18 -!- Twinge- has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:11:20 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:11:20 -!- Twinge- has joined ##crawl-dev 11:11:21 did my last line go through? 11:11:21 no 11:11:35 dpeg: I'm not sure how to change page names (if I can, even) but the spell is called Iskenderun's Orb of Destruction :P 11:11:50 st_: just change the first header of the page 11:11:57 that's where the title comes from 11:12:04 dpeg, should the items be inscribed with anything? (god gift? 11:12:32 s/items/sticks generated by snakes to sticks 11:12:57 only if sticks to snakes makes tattooed snakes 11:13:10 TGW, snakes to sticks, Xom ability 11:13:17 I know 11:13:27 hrm. k 11:15:59 Hah, God Gift. Hmm. Could be funny. Either way seems fine on that one 11:18:04 i want to suggest some new DS mutations but i'm having a hard time using the wiki. how do you change font size, for instance, or add a line or paragraph? 11:18:20 Timbermaw: please don't change font size d: 11:18:34 for subtitles 11:18:36 paragraphs are just separated by blank lines i believe 11:18:39 Timbermaw, http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=wiki:syntax 11:18:53 gracias 11:19:48 -!- TGW is now known as TGWi 11:19:59 it's jsut weird that there are 2 wikis for the game, i dunno if they use the same syntax 11:23:15 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 11:25:07 -!- Kyrris has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:12 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Connection timed out] 11:26:52 Timbermaw: well, they're for very different purposes 11:26:59 the two wikis really shouldn't have any overlap 11:27:13 not sure if they even have any overlap in contributors, really 11:28:06 also nobody uses the player wiki 11:28:51 that too 11:29:20 so, nrook is asking around in the main channel 11:29:26 what's up with end transformation and the turn delay? 11:29:37 hmmm? 11:29:47 end transformation is delayed by a turn 11:29:57 you mean it takes two turns? 11:30:08 oh ya that hpapens with vamps 11:30:14 I mean it seems to set the transformation duration to 10 aut 11:30:34 if you hit end transformation again it'll take one more turn, and so on 11:30:36 since the message is "you feel *almost* normal," I suspect this is the intended behavior 11:31:23 this is how it's been working in post-0.5 trunk, as early as I can remember 11:31:46 but I also remember it working instantly in 0.5 11:34:06 why does the wiki seem to ignore single line breaks? 11:34:24 beats me :/ 11:34:27 it pretends to be typesetting software 11:34:29 TGWi: because typically, paragraphs are delimited by empty lines 11:34:41 yes, actually, that's probably the reason 11:35:40 I'm taught to use indentation instead of empty lines 11:36:03 TGWi: that's a holdover from typewriters d: 11:36:10 many items of technical literature use spacing instead of indentation to mark paragraphs, too. 11:36:25 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:37:23 ...lol, I think my script may need some tweaking :P 11:37:42 right now snakes are only replaced with clubs, and those clubs range from +5 +4 to +8 +7 :P 11:39:02 -!- Twinge- has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:39:30 Hah 11:40:51 hmmm, going from robe -> elven robe (while wearing a shield) seems to help spell failure rates a pretty good amount 11:41:39 also, the volcano definitely needs tides 11:41:45 doy, an expectedly good amount, or a 'this elven robe might inadvertently be giving too much of a bonus' amount? 11:42:22 Cryp71c: no idea, i'm not too familiar with how the new ac/ev/etc stuff works yet 11:43:38 -!- Twinge- has joined ##crawl-dev 11:45:53 ??sticks to snakes 11:45:53 sticks to snakes[1/2]: Turns wielded arrows (multiple snakes) and other wooden weapons (one snake) into various snakes. Higher spell power gives nastier snakes: arrows give up to brown snakes, poisoned ones have better odds; with sufficient power, other weapons can go up to grey snakes. A giant club guarantees at least a brown snake. Cursed weapons yield hostile snakes. 11:45:58 ??sticks to snakes[2] 11:45:58 sticks to snakes[2/2]: The following weapons are sticks: All clubs, all bows, ankuses, quarterstaves, all polearms except bardiche and trident, blowgun, arrows. 11:46:30 why not trident and bardiche? 11:46:32 that's silly 11:46:59 probably because tridents and bardiches are in large part metal 11:47:13 yeah, they're typically non-wooden weapons 11:47:38 Wrong message when targeting through trees (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=569) by st 11:47:43 They still usually have a wooden handle, don't they? 11:47:50 Bardiches at least 11:48:16 but scythes can be sticks-to-snakes'd then? 11:48:38 does anyone have the tiles handy? 11:48:40 yeah, doesn't make too much sense for bardiches to not work but scythes to work 11:48:58 Twinge, no, trident's tend to be subjected to large amounts of torque, and thus wooden handles would break easily. bardiches are similar to heavy war-axes, while they could be made with wood...it wouldn't make sense to because they'd break far too easily. 11:49:10 scythes are lighter weapons though, used for slicing. 11:49:26 why would tridents be torqued? 11:49:50 TGWi, they get caught in everything from nets to armour 11:50:11 Every single picture of a Bardiche I can find has a wooden handle :P 11:50:32 Twinge, eh, yeah I suppose so. 11:50:42 IDK, perhaps they should be in the list of snakable weaponry. 11:51:04 cryp: ...and? 11:51:23 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 11:51:42 I mean, halberds have smaller heads, but they aren't THAT much different. 11:51:50 TGWi, its a lightweight weapon, so its shaft is naturally thin. The fact that it gets caught very easily (and the shapes of its prongs) prevent it from being removed (or un-stuck) easily. 11:52:26 TGWi, which means a greater amount of force has to be exerted to free the weapon. thin wooden handles would break more frequently than metal ones. 11:52:56 -!- Twinge has quit [No route to host] 11:53:10 it's too bad I have no idea what the tile looks like 11:55:01 But yeah, Bardiche should be stickable. Tridents are more questionable. 11:56:10 seems like pulling a stick toward you would be less likely to break it than *swinging it as hard as you can, several feet away from you, and hitting a hard surface" 11:56:12 * 11:56:36 that being exactly what slashing polearms are 11:57:41 informational windows should close on space (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=570) by doy 11:59:25 -!- Twinge_ has quit [No route to host] 12:01:39 gastronok can show up in orc? 12:01:41 TGWi, tridents are also typically used to trap other weapons, where torque is applied in any manner of direction by your opponent to free their weapon..though I don't think wielding a trident gives any defensive bonus in crawl 12:01:42 that seems odd 12:01:47 doy, yep, and it blows. 12:02:04 As can Aizul (unless someone has finally explicitly kept him from showing up there) 12:02:10 does he still have ridiculous damage airstrike? 12:02:15 yes he does 12:02:26 I have never, EVER, killed gastro. Ever. 12:02:26 There's a fungus over deep water 12:02:33 I just don't bother with it. 12:02:42 He's way too tough for his HD and placement. 12:03:10 Tridents giving defensive bonuses would be a good addition in future weapon overhauls, to make weapons more distrinct and all. 12:03:20 @??gastronok 12:03:21 Gastronok (04j) | Speed: 5 | HD: 20 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 2/1 | Damage: 40 | Flags: amphibious, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(80) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 2131 | Sp: airstrike, slow, swiftness, small mammals, cantrip. 12:03:24 doy, and his xp is 2000, which is SUPER dumb. 12:03:27 for HD20 12:03:38 @??elephant slug 12:03:39 elephant slug (15j) | Speed: 4 | HD: 20 | Health: 100-160 | AC/EV: 2/1 | Damage: 40 | Res: 06magic(80) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 903. 12:03:42 although I can understand his presence is meant to teach the 'don't always fight everything' lesson. 12:03:45 super dumb? 12:03:50 Well, not dumb. 12:03:52 Just unusual 12:03:55 why? 12:03:58 He's also speed 5 Crypt :) 12:04:10 comparing gastronok to elephant slugs is a bit unfair 12:04:11 2000 xp doesn't seem unreasonable 12:04:12 And he has a cantrip in the spell list 12:04:21 ofc elephant slugs should give less exp 12:04:25 and/or not exist 12:04:31 hmmm, last time i met him he just had airstrike and swiftness 12:04:37 TGW: Sure, but that's what he was modelled after, which is also HD20 (though a little less HP) 12:04:40 this looks like it should be more reasonable 12:04:41 Twinge-, yeah, I've never seen him cast cantrip...and after he slows you and swiftness's, his speed5 is appropriately slow 12:04:59 Because he still overtakes you 12:05:00 Cryp71c: what's wrong with his xp? 12:05:11 twinge- and faster and swift and airstrike 12:05:16 and for some reason he's missing vul pois 12:05:24 doy, nothing really, but its just even more reason to never both killing him. 12:05:51 He's just a 'always skip' unique. 12:05:52 ...what 12:06:15 i really don't see how that's true 12:06:16 Just how much damage does Airstrike do? 12:06:24 twinge: like 80 12:06:41 doy: you should give boring slow enemies 10 act speed 12:06:49 so that I can't kite them 12:07:02 doy, by the time you can kill him without dying to airstrike / slow / swiftness you wouldn't bother going back for a measly 2k xp (scaled for HD) 12:07:12 80 wat 12:07:15 ??airstrike 12:07:15 airstrike[1/2]: A single target attack spell; uses smite targeting, so it can hit any monster you can see (it goes through translucent walls too). It's unresistable, and gets a damage bonus against flying or levitating monsters. Spell level 4. 12:07:23 slugs, worms (oh god worms), oozes, beetles (oh god beetles) 12:07:55 that was pretty easy 12:07:59 ? 12:08:00 i don't know what you guys are talking about 12:08:13 oh, just killed gastro 12:08:15 yeah they're insane 12:08:33 do you not have any ranged attacks at all when meeting him? 12:08:39 I've never even fought him myself, so I'm neutralish. I don't thinkg airstrike does that much though does it? Is it the same as the player spell? 12:08:41 because that's your own fault 12:09:06 twinge-: *nothing* is the same as the player spell 12:09:13 he's slow, you can kite him at edge of los with wands if necessary 12:09:27 monster spells use some ridiculous voodoo to extrapolate for high power 12:09:43 it's like stone arrow on ghosts 12:10:01 Also -- does anyone have a suggestion for a good program to search inside files for Windows? This 'Copernic' seems to be indexing everything except the bloody Crawl-Source directory and no matter what I do doesn't seem to change that fact. 12:10:19 'grep' 12:10:47 (or ack, if you don't mind installing perl stuff) 12:11:24 does random2(x) return between 0 and x or 1 and x? 12:11:33 between 0 and x-1 12:11:57 does random() exist? 12:12:08 TGWi: random() is a standard library function 12:12:12 Twinge-, use windows search? you can search the contents of a file. 12:12:19 Hmm, grep for windows. I guess I'm not surprised this exists. 12:12:27 what does it do 12:12:28 Cryptic: Not the .cc files 12:12:49 Twinge-: really, just install msys or cygwin 12:12:52 life will be much easier 12:13:29 Twinge-, hrm. My windows 7 searches .cc contents just fine. 12:13:44 For what it's worth, Gastronok has never really been a problem for me. 12:14:35 doy, I'm about to code snakes_to_sticks to give arrows 1/2 the time and a stick-able weapon the other 1/2 of the time (if its a weapon, it then choses 1 from the 12 possible types of stickable weapons) 12:14:39 does that sound reasonable? 12:15:02 Cryp71c: if you're going to give weapons, they need to be weighted by rarity 12:15:22 doy, ..damn..where can I find that rarity at? 12:15:56 Snakes to sticks targets monsters or friendlies? 12:16:38 Kyrris, xom effect targetting monsters 12:16:44 Ah. 12:16:47 Xom. 12:16:51 :) 12:17:13 He should also unpetrify. 12:17:22 doy, nevermind, got it. 12:17:27 Make statues and earth elementals into flesh things. 12:17:35 he should turn bad potions into corpses 12:17:37 The .o and .d files are compiles ones right? (That I shouldn't search) 12:17:42 Twinge-: yes 12:17:58 -!- Twinge- is now known as Twinge 12:18:01 he should turn your MP into chunks 12:18:32 Xom reverses magic! Xom thinks this is hilarious! 12:18:44 Actually... 12:19:16 deposition of magic 12:19:18 Occasionally doing the opposite of transmutations you try to cast would fit him. 12:19:33 It would be a Bad act, of course. 12:19:51 Because you cast these things when you need the end result more than the beginning. 12:20:03 -!- dexap has joined ##crawl-dev 12:24:59 doy, would it be close enough if I inverted the rarity (so clubs are 0, bows are 1, etc. etc.) and put each stickable object into an array and then did array[random2(random2(12))] ? 12:25:05 Eronarn: Is the namespaces wiki page accurate? http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=wiki%3Anamespaces 12:25:27 Eronarn: I will tweak wording from "should/would" -> "is" 12:25:31 // weight == 0 in the monster entry indicates "no corpse". Can't use CE_NOCORPSE, because the corpse-effect field is used for corpseless monsters to indicate what happens if their blood is sucked. Grrrr. <--- I assume this means I shouldn't give weights to monsters that don't have weights already? 12:26:14 Cryp71c: whatever, just want to cut down on the probability of the player being showered with scythes and lajatangs 12:26:17 (: 12:26:19 k 12:26:28 I didn't know how strict the rarity thing really should be. 12:26:35 Eronarn: Looked right, so I went ahead. 12:26:43 but double random2 should scale by rarity pretty well 12:26:47 I'll do some testing after I implement it. 12:27:14 Twinge: well, it means you can't do it without breaking things 12:27:25 but i would say that refactoring that might be a decent option 12:29:19 I mean, it's not that big of a deal if players get lajatangs more commonly than they would randomly on the floor from this fairly rare Xom effect; Xom can certainly do some nice things after all, and it won't exactly happen that often, and even then usually only mid-game at the earliest (lair/snake pit) 12:29:35 right 12:29:54 the exact numbers aren't too important 12:30:25 Cryptic: Can they generate with brands? 12:30:45 doy: How would we go about refactoring it? 12:30:57 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:31:01 -!- Spads has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:31:22 Twinge: move the blood sucking stuff to a different field, and add CE_NOCORPSE? 12:31:46 Nod. I don't know how involved that is, hehe 12:31:48 shrug 12:31:51 i don't either 12:31:52 (: 12:33:51 Alrighty. There's a 1/4 chance of getting a weapon 12:33:55 Where is corpse probability defined, assuming it's different for each monster (is it?) 12:34:06 and if you get a weapon, there's a 1/4 chance its a club, 1/8 chance its a quarterstaff, and 1/16 chance of anything else. 12:34:21 Twinge, I'm pretty sure its constant? 12:34:33 Could be 12:34:46 That's based on gameplay xp though, not having seen the code myself. 12:40:25 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 12:40:45 Gretell's still not reporting what you were hit from afar with. 12:41:35 Oh wow this is hacky 12:41:41 case MONS_IRON_GOLEM: 12:41:41 weight *= 3; 12:41:41 break; 12:42:54 What is it tripling? 12:43:14 Kyrris, the previous weight 12:43:25 Cryp71c: how observant d: 12:43:26 Well, yeah. But what's being fed into that? 12:43:30 doy, lol I thought so 12:45:01 Kyrris: Well, Iron Golem's weight is 0. But I think there's something that sets their weights based on size 12:45:17 Like I said, very hacky :( 12:45:30 And for some reason Electric Golems have their weight set to 0?? 12:45:45 (Along with Spectral Warriors and stuff that makes sense) 12:45:59 Twinge: i think the idea is that they're really electricity golems 12:46:06 maybe we should change the name 12:46:51 I don't see how they could really be a 'golem' but be insubstatial :P 12:47:04 yeah they need a name change if that's the flavor 12:47:06 and a new glyph 12:47:15 well, look at their tile 12:47:22 Does anyone know offhand what the take_note(NOTE()) stuff is for? (particularly as it has to do with xom_effects) 12:47:48 does lugonu starting abyss have these pan gates too? 12:47:55 that would be amusing 12:47:55 !tell Napkin by the way, it'd be nice if the bot search page actually gave new urls when searching for things, so you could link search results 12:47:56 doy: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 12:48:05 Cryp71c: the notes in your dumplog 12:48:10 and that you can see via ?: 12:48:30 doy, oh ok. 12:48:36 syllogism: pan gates in the abyss should go, i think 12:48:38 i don't like them 12:48:48 you already can, doy 12:48:48 Napkin: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 12:49:01 ?q=goblin 12:49:23 dpeg, still with us? 12:49:27 but using POST generally is not so nice 12:49:31 i'll see 12:51:16 doy, hrm, what would be an appropriately flavor'd message for Xom's snakes to sticks? "Xom utters an unrecognizable spell backwards" 12:51:38 though, of course its not really a spell :P 12:52:35 -!- dexap has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:57:56 reflection brand tile (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=571) by Porkchop 12:58:19 "Xom thinks they are better like this" 12:58:28 "Xom thinks they are more useful like this" 12:58:51 Xom performs a magic trick! 12:58:58 yay 12:59:13 (Could even be random of a few possible phrases.) 12:59:46 Xom does not like slitters (sp?) 13:00:50 Slitherers? 13:00:57 Slithers? 13:01:48 -!- dexap has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02:36 -!- paxed has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:02:41 -!- dexap is now known as paxed 13:02:43 slitherers i think 13:03:09 Anyone know off hand where SpeakDB is read from? is it a file in /source/docs ? 13:03:32 dat/database/monspeak.txt i think? 13:03:40 doy, even for gods? 13:03:46 shrug 13:03:48 it's under dat/ somewhere 13:03:54 grep for it 13:05:00 dat/descript/ monsters.txt 13:05:02 and monspeak.txt 13:05:18 oh, database for monspeak, and doy said 13:05:48 Yeah, I got it. dat/database/godspeak.txt 13:06:23 (for what it's worth, doing the search yourself before asking the channel would probably save everybody some time d:) 13:07:22 He said offhand, seemed fine ;) 13:07:38 !tell due sticking mentioned something about getting exp when leading pikel off the level he spawned on, not sure if he imagined it but maybe look into it? 13:07:39 st_: OK, I'll let due know. 13:09:37 Man, checking weight for number of chunks is defined in like 4 different places 13:10:21 is there a reason you can't raise ugly thing zombies? 13:11:14 you can in 0.5, I think it's to do with mutagenic corpses 13:11:25 doy: They specifically have a NOZOMBIE flag set 13:11:36 hmmm, okay 13:11:36 I don't know why, mind you 13:11:58 sorear: any idea why ugly things have NOZOMBIE? 13:12:36 Maybe they didn't work friendly with their color effects and being zombified? 13:13:31 i'd think the color effects would just be ignored 13:13:37 Yeah 13:14:26 'G' class monsters also can't be zombies, which seems fine. Sphinexes can't be which seems also questionable? And neither can Kobold Demonolgoists or mosts Nagas?? 13:14:52 kinda strange 13:15:07 (although i thought i remembered seeing giant eyeball zombies) 13:15:23 Or Ogre Mages, or Hell Knights, or Necromancers, or Wizards, or Vault Guards... 13:15:34 well, hmmm 13:15:43 hey guys, solution to all kinds of annoying stealth bugs: enemies too far away can't track you 13:15:47 they make racial zombies instead 13:15:49 are these because they just use a different base corpse type? 13:15:50 yeah 13:16:08 hmm 13:16:16 special cased somewhere I guess? 13:16:17 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:16:35 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:50 dangit 13:16:56 special cased somewhere I guess? 13:16:58 I guess necro/wiz/etc. turn into humans, and so on. What about Sphinxes though? 13:17:08 sphinxes don't leave corpses at all 13:17:40 wait what? 13:17:42 aren't they living? 13:17:45 ??monsters 13:17:46 monsters[1/1]: Type @?monstername in this channel (or in a PM to Gretell), or see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/crawl_ss_monsters_by_name.html If you want to see the stats of a monster in trunk, use @?? instead of @? 13:17:55 natural 13:18:05 i'm not sure whether that makes sense, but they don't 13:18:30 they should 13:18:34 all other H do 13:18:36 I don't think they do, yeah, because they have mass=0 13:18:42 file it! 13:18:52 They were one of 3 that I had tagged as 'should leave corpse but has mass of 0' 13:18:59 doy: I'll do better than file it :) 13:19:04 Twinge: what were the others? 13:19:04 why mass 0? 13:19:20 TGWi: that means "doesn't leave a corpse" 13:19:50 oh, nothing else uses corpse mass 13:19:51 'kay 13:19:56 vault guard was another, and possible some of the sea creatures like sharks or fish 13:20:37 fish leave corpses now 13:20:55 vault guards leave human corpses 13:21:27 IOOD + mara is trippy 13:22:31 Er, if those leave corpses, Sphinxes should too?? 13:22:32 !lm syllogism uniq=mara -tv 13:22:33 2. syllogism, XL27 HEIE, T:117602 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 13:22:36 Unless 13:22:58 oh, they were given corpse weights already 13:22:59 Yeah 13:23:24 I could only find an easy listing of monsters from 0.5.2, so I guess some of my base info is wrong 13:23:25 why do we even need NOZOMBIE at all anymore 13:23:38 it used to be useful for things like hydras 13:23:45 but i don't think there's anything like that anymore 13:24:00 ? 13:24:08 03haranp 07direction-rewrite * r73bc29e49e24 10/crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc directn.h item_use.cc): Make the top prompt in direction() controllable by targetting_behaviour. 13:24:10 03haranp 07direction-rewrite * r51a66bd6e7c6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (item_use.cc spl-cast.cc): Colour spell name when casting it. 13:24:14 03haranp 07direction-rewrite * rd0052e15260d 10/crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Colour the Aim: prompt a bit better. 13:24:15 03haranp 07direction-rewrite * ra9242111459f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc stash.cc stash.h tilereg.cc travel.cc viewmap.cc): Handle out-of-sight cells better in targetting. Also minor cleanups elsewhere. 13:24:21 do sphinxes/uglies not leave corpses because they're magical? 13:24:22 03haranp * r36b2bd4d949f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (27 files): Merge branch 'direction-rewrite' 13:24:34 syllogism: haha, that's awesome 13:24:51 yay merge 13:25:30 uglies leave corpses 13:25:32 what're you smoking 13:25:33 -!- Eifel has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25:36 -!- Twinge- has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25:45 yeah, you just can't zombify them 13:25:51 oh 13:25:52 weird 13:26:09 12:24] A lot of this is outdated, yeah. And like I said earlier, there's literally 4 or 5 different places where the same formulas is used for seeing how many chunks a monster gives 13:26:09 12:25] * Disconnected 13:26:26 owja 13:26:34 It is madness! (I'm sure there are many code bits that are worse though :P) 13:28:21 Are vampiric weapons intended to lose the per-turn hunger? 13:28:35 duepeg thought they did 13:28:36 Kyrris: AFAIK Yes. 13:28:50 Thanks. 13:29:24 Hmm, should all eyes leave corpses? Giant Eye, Eye of Draining, Giant Brain, Great Orb of Eyes all leave corpses but the others do not 13:29:38 I think they should 13:29:47 -!- henryci has joined ##crawl-dev 13:29:52 but no zombies because most wouldn't do anything 13:30:17 Yes, they still have the nozombie flag 13:30:37 ok, due didn't know and dpeg was silent 13:30:52 What about hell hounds and hell hogs? Hell Knights do 13:31:07 they don't already? whuh 13:31:31 i don't think demonic creatures ever leave corpses 13:31:44 do demons ever leave corpses? 13:31:53 Most don't. Hell Knights are the main exception I see 13:32:09 they're just humans 13:32:34 @??hell knight 13:32:34 hell knight (05@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 30-90 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 13 | Flags: evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(40), 05hellfire | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 767 | Sp: pain, b.fire, blink / pain, throw flame, haste. 13:32:40 And not even tagged demonic I guess, huh 13:32:44 Just evil, I see 13:33:08 How about moths of wrath? 13:34:09 And rotting hulks? (necros and ghouls do) 13:34:53 03haranp * rb6740d263546 10/crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Reinstate rvollmert's changes from 1b0e160 (flush_prev_messages) for directn.cc. 13:36:22 Also, these weights are so funny. Sharks are apparently only about ogre sized, but weight as much as dragons. Are they like, lead sharks? 13:37:42 the ogres are made of hydrogen 13:40:09 They used to be. 13:40:10 hmm, so vault guards do leave corpses... but have no mass... man where are the special cases hiding, this is a mess :/ 13:40:19 But they use helium, now, to avoid explosions. 13:40:33 back 13:40:37 had unexpected duties 13:41:35 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:41:45 doy, is there an easy way to delay output until a certain point later in the script? 13:41:48 dpeg: What do you think about the other eyes leaving corpses (about half of them do right now)? And months of wrath or rotting hulks (necros & ghouls do) 13:41:58 Cryp71c: what script are you talking about 13:42:05 Cryp71c: no need to inscribe sticked snakes 13:42:42 -!- Twinge has quit [No route to host] 13:43:02 doy, my snakes_to_sticks function work *perfectly* except creatures are polymorphed (or turned to a random weapon) and the text for that action is outputted...then at the bottom my godmessage is outputted 13:43:09 So it looks very awkward. 13:43:26 Cryp71c: seems like it would be easier to just output the god message first 13:43:43 doy, yeah I suppose so. 13:46:04 -!- neunon has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:46:51 Cryp71c: the weapons you give should come from a clear monster->weapon mapping. 13:48:10 dpeg, ...NOoooOooOoooo 13:48:15 I wrote it to pick randomly 13:48:16 crap! 13:48:30 Although i was planning on using the HD of the creature to influence the power of the weapon generated 13:48:42 so Anacondas would be more likely to give slightly branded weaponry 13:49:23 That'd be cool 13:49:35 dpeg, I don't think there should be a direct mapping (eg small snakes ALWAYS give arrows) 13:49:37 "slightly branded"? 13:50:00 doy: How do you feel about those things having corpses too, while I'm asking about it 13:50:06 doy, shouldn't have said slightly branded, I meant slightly +acc+dmg 13:50:08 Twinge-: which 13:50:13 Cryp71c: 'enchanted' 13:50:18 thanks, enchanted. 13:50:22 Cryp71c: none of the sticks should be branded 13:50:22 (: 13:50:25 Though branded weapons are also possible, but unlikely 13:50:28 Ah christ.. 13:50:32 I just got a dart of reaping 13:50:39 doy -I'm thinking the other eyes should leav corpses (about half of them do right now). And months of wrath or rotting hulks (necros & ghouls do), as well as phinxes 13:50:47 Twinge-: you could provide a patch that adds sanity to the code! (re: many places where the same formula is used.) 13:50:50 Black Mambas shouldn't give venom brands with a small chance? 13:51:00 doy: disagree, I think there should be a chance for branding. 13:51:02 I think it would suit them. 13:51:15 shrug, i don't feel incredibly strongly about it 13:51:18 just feels kinda weird 13:51:25 doy, you can't get anymore than 1 arrow from a snake. 13:51:30 So even if its crazy-branded 13:51:31 its only 1 13:51:45 I think more corpses is fine. I don't think everything should be zombiefiable, though. 13:51:53 eg, 1 arrow of reaping 13:52:03 dpeg: Yes, that's a seperate aspect; I'd leave eyes as non-zombie 13:52:06 Cryp71c: you should never produce branded sticks, in my opinion. 13:52:34 Cryp71c: when two devs agree (I didn't read what doy says), it's a good reason :) 13:52:34 dpeg, hrm..I can look into that. I'm using item() to create the item, and - although you can pass in some settings - most of it is random. 13:52:44 dpeg / doy: Why, though? :P 13:52:50 dpeg: what don't you think should be zombifiable? 13:53:02 doy zombies :P 13:53:04 doy: eyes, giant orange brains 13:53:05 It's a rare effect, and then it'd be rare that brands would even happen after that rare effect 13:53:21 "The Blork the orc zombie zombie" 13:53:23 :P 13:53:27 dpeg: why not? i like those(: 13:53:34 I put zombies on your zombies so you can zombie while you zombie. 13:53:47 Twinge-: the effect will be best if it's clear afterwards that small snakes -> arrows, guardian nagas -> +4 giant clubs 13:53:52 they are silly, but i don't mind it 13:53:58 brandings only confuse the picture 13:53:59 dpeg, nagas can't go to items? 13:54:10 No doy, this is an instance where we have to teach good design. 13:54:12 Guardian serpents aren't nagas. 13:54:13 confuses? Eh? 13:54:28 dpeg: how is it a design issue? 13:54:39 Kyrris: They're still snakes though imo 13:54:45 doy: metadesign: simplicity, beauty, less is more etc. 13:54:54 I understood the approach to stickify snakes, nagas, serpents 13:54:57 Twinge-: Yes. Snakes, not nagas. 13:54:59 dpeg: Not when you're talking about special Xom effect 13:55:09 simplicity: all corpses can be zombies 13:55:18 that's the simplicity angle i was coming from 13:55:23 Do I have to scroll back to where Cryp71c said something about nagas? 13:55:25 Twinge-: He's talking about something else. 13:55:30 Simplicity is good - but it isn't always better. 13:55:48 Sorry, folks, but currently this channel is fucked up. 13:56:01 dpeg, I was saying that based on confusion, can Nagas turn to items, or only turn into wood golems? 13:56:01 (: 13:56:08 too many things going on at once 13:56:11 It's all on topic though! 13:56:23 I'll be back in ~20 13:56:34 Cryp71c: i think you should come up with a design 13:56:36 and code it 13:56:38 and then come back 13:56:56 having other people have to walk you through every step of the way kinda defeats the purpose of having other people do these things 13:57:40 -!- henryci_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:57:40 -!- henryci has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:57:46 -!- henryci_ is now known as henryci 13:57:50 henryci: Hi! 13:58:28 but: Haran merged <3 13:58:35 Napkin: you around? 13:59:23 doy, I had a design, I did code it, and now I'm BACK here with dpeg talking about a shift in the original design we discussed. 14:00:06 aha 14:00:34 dpeg, I must have mis understood your original conceptualization, I thought Nagas => Wood golems and Snakes => Stickable Items 14:02:51 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 14:06:01 Cryp71c: ah, I see 14:06:16 well, the wood golem idea is already slightly risque, if you ask me 14:06:20 but I won't comment on the issue anymore 14:06:58 there's something add about the new more system, mainly I'm finding I have to smash space more often than before 14:07:31 felirx: in what situations? 14:07:42 like I'm firing repeatedly arrows 14:07:47 dpeg, well I'd like to get this right (or as close to right, and by right I mean balanced), the first go around, so I appreciate your comments. 14:07:57 and Iv've jackals or whateve biting me, causing more lines than can be shown 14:08:16 felirx: well, this part has always been true, it's not any more than normal 14:08:24 haranp just committed some changes that should help though 14:08:46 !seen Napkin 14:08:46 I last saw Napkin at Tue Jan 26 19:35:01 2010 UTC (33m 45s ago) saying thanks, Kyrris on ##crawl. 14:09:00 unrelated: vampire pets are great, all the awesome parts of 0.4-era summoners 14:09:04 (: 14:16:28 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 14:18:51 hey, I can message_colour --more-- now! 14:18:53 thanks devs <3 14:19:22 ooh 14:19:25 sweet 14:19:38 no CDO update :( 14:19:44 @??wood golem 14:19:44 ? 14:19:45 wood golem (088) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 36-54 | AC/EV: 5/6 | Damage: 10 | Flags: 11non-living | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | Vul: 04fire | XP: 188. 14:19:51 @??guardian serpent 14:19:52 guardian serpent (09N) | Speed: 15 | HD: 8 | Health: 24-64 | AC/EV: 6/14 | Damage: 26 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(64), 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 583 | Sp: teleport other, minor healing, b.venom, slow. 14:20:01 @??naga 14:20:02 naga (03N) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Damage: 17 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(40), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 108 | Sp: poison splash. 14:20:56 but only forced_mores 14:21:10 (which is actually pretty neat) 14:21:42 @??anaconda 14:21:43 anaconda (15S) | Speed: 18 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 4/16 | Damage: 30 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(44) | XP: 1136. 14:22:11 st_: thanks for IOOD comment! 14:22:41 Cryptic: I'm thinking all lesser snakes to weapons only, with better weapons/branding chances based on their HD, and probably 1/3 greater snakes/nagas into wood golems, rest into weapons, again probably based on HD but maybe with a higher starting point than the lessers. 14:23:48 Or, it could even be an on/off trigger - he could strictly turn everything he transforms into wood golems like 1/4 or 1/5 times he activates snakes to sticks, the other times they're just weapons, rather than a mix. Both apporaches seem fine. 14:24:45 -!- Kyrris has left ##crawl-dev 14:25:51 does clarity keep shoutitis at bay? 14:29:29 what's up, dpeg? 14:29:30 and dpeg: I don't really trust my skills to try and patch the whole chunks issue. My C coding experience is extremely limited. 14:30:18 cdo was updated this morning at 10 14:30:21 need new update? 14:31:13 yesyesyes 14:31:31 Bitte! 14:31:43 wow.. just saw 2 crawl processes using more than 15% of CPU each 14:31:49 once a day is not nearly enough for this dynamic game :) 14:32:06 considering there are 4 cores with 2.1ghz.. that's a lot 14:32:33 Twinge-: I made some comments and feel they fully drowned... then someone (not necessarily you) disregarded what both doy and I said, so I am somewhat out of the S2S loop 14:32:35 there seriously needs to be done some profiling soon.. please 14:32:56 Napkin: yeah, i started looking at it last night 14:32:58 it's getting worse and worse 14:33:02 something changed recently 14:33:14 doy: could it be the message window? Sounds unbelievable... 14:33:24 dpeg: possibly, not sure 14:33:32 Napkin: do you do optimized builds? 14:34:30 I was trying to build crawl with -pg last night so I could look into it, but getting the linker flags riht dfeated me. 14:34:37 /usr/bin/x86_64-linux-gnu-g++ -O2 -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe -Wall -Wno-array-bounds -Wno-parentheses -Wwrite-strings -Wshadow -pedantic -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=0 -Wuninitialized -Icontrib/install/include -Iutil -I. -I/usr/include/ncursesw -DSAVE_PACKAGE_NONE -DUSE_TAR -DREGEX_PCRE -DCLUA_BINDINGS -DDGAMELAUNCH -DSAVE_DIR_PATH="/crawl-svn-b6740d2/saves" -DDATA_DIR_PATH="/crawl-svn-b6740d2/" -DUNICODE_GLYPHS -Wp,-MD,beam.d -c -E ...cc 14:34:55 henryci: but you can compile right now? 14:34:56 dpeg: Might've been me. I was wondering why you didn't want them to be branded, since you didn't explain why. doy didn't want them to be either but said he wasn't strong on that. 14:35:12 But you didn't miss much anyway 14:35:43 that's what I use, doy 14:35:46 O2 14:35:52 default, I think 14:35:56 Napkin: okay, good... one thing i did notice was that there was a pretty huge performance difference between optimized and non-optimized builds 14:36:02 compile, yes. but changing the linker flags isn't being friendly. 14:36:07 i'll look more into it tonight 14:36:33 thanks a lot, doy :) 14:36:55 doy: I believe sorear has fixed monster airstrike damage 14:37:08 by: ah, good 14:37:14 Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2812-gb6740d2 (16.2) 14:37:29 Twinge-: I will say it a final time (you don't have to use it, but it's my take on the matter): Xom's effect should be as faithful an inversion of the spell as possible. So no nagas and serpents; pick a spellpower (could be random!) and invert what the S2S spell would give. 14:37:49 Cryp71c: ^ (I think) 14:37:58 * doy agrees with dpeg 14:38:01 If we figure that this is working well, one may think about serpents and nagas, but I would start with a faithful inversion of the spell. 14:38:33 this really doesn't need to be (and shouldn't be) very complex 14:39:29 completely unrelated: does anyone have an idea how to make Ctrl-X easier accessible? 14:39:41 The only thing I can come up with is 'xx' :/ 14:39:52 no 'xx'): 14:40:10 personally, I find Ctrl-X pretty hard to type 14:40:19 alive vampires can't cast death's door according to marvin 14:40:20 not sure why 14:40:41 dpeg: well, ctrl-anything tends to be hard to type 14:40:44 yeah 14:40:48 or borgnjor's revivification 14:40:58 or necromutation (although i suppose that makes more sense 14:40:59 Napkin: CDO updated? 14:41:08 dpeg: yes 14:41:16 21:37 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2812-gb6740d2 (16.2) 14:41:19 ;) 14:41:34 ^x is easy 14:41:35 dpeg: hmmm, tab is unused 14:41:45 not sure if it fits here, but could be for something 14:41:46 what does ^z do? 14:41:53 TGWi: suspends the process, probably 14:42:03 03haranp * r8062925f769e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (delay.cc spells3.cc stash.cc stash.h travel.cc): Some movement from x,y to coord_def. 14:42:04 i have ' mapped to tab 14:42:06 03haranp * r778f964e158f 10/crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Make Apportation work in areas, such as the Abyss, with no map knowledge. 14:42:37 but agree - the function behind ctrl+x should be quicker accessible 14:43:10 by: You continue butchering the corpse. x3 :) 14:43:16 dpeg: Hmm. I guess I just don't see Xom as constrained by the existing game logic ;) 14:43:47 Twinge-: I think this misses the point. 14:44:05 Xom can do anything, but it seems most fun to invert the spell. Rather than doing something arbitrary. 14:45:00 doy: in the debug build, most of the slow functions are mine :) 14:45:09 dpeg, since multiple weapons can (under certain chances) generate the same snake, different snakes should be able to produce the same weapons. Therefore a 1-1 correlation between a particular snake and the type of stickable item it turns into does not follow logically. 14:45:13 dpeg: Ah, so just a difference of opinion in what would be most interesting and fun then =) 14:45:15 by: there are still some superflous --more-- around leveling, I think. 14:45:19 by: well, i'm talking about non-debug unoptimized 14:45:26 dpeg: there's one at the end 14:45:33 by: i do "make -j3 HURRY=1 wizard" usually 14:45:33 doy: I'll check that in a minute 14:45:41 by: is it needed? 14:46:11 dpeg: I'm not quite sure if it might otherwise be cleared, at least with clear_messages=true 14:46:22 you could try removing it and see if people complain 14:46:24 dpeg, it seems most appropriate that a type of weapon can either be chosen randomly (adjusted for rarity) or b) be influenced by the HD of the monster. 14:46:45 doy: 23% total run time is in haloers() which I know is horrible and could easily be optimized 14:47:06 that sounds like a good place to start(: 14:47:16 doy: 19% in _set_nearest_monster_foe 14:47:38 and 36% in the monster LOS updates 14:47:58 Cryp71c: you can also set a spellpower for yourself, work out the chances and invert them. Easier than having a random spellpower. 14:47:59 by: it's really a pretty striking difference, if you build 0.5 and master, pressing 5 is completely instantaneous in 0.5, and takes about a second in master 14:48:30 (takes about 4 seconds if you don't have an optimized build) 14:48:32 dpeg, so you mean as if xom created "Snakes to sticks" and then forced you to cast it? 14:49:33 by: hmmm, did monsters used to have their own los in 0.5? 14:49:40 doy: no 14:49:56 it's possible that's the slowdown then 14:50:01 Cryptic: Basically his take on it is that it should be as close to a direct inversion of the real spell as possible, as I understand it. However that is not strict, and you can take some liberties with the idea to make it work reasonably or tweak how you'd like. That's my interpretation anyway (not trying to put words in anyone's mouth) 14:50:29 Alright, well I'll continue on my own, making adjustments to the design, an when i'm done, you can critique it then. 14:52:21 Twinge-: yes, because I think the whole idea of this particular Xom effect is to be funny. Funny for everyone who's ever seen the S2S spell. 14:52:59 by: for 0.7, we may do indirect butchering (you need a tool but there's no actual weapon switching involved) which would improve the interface again. 14:53:19 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 14:53:38 So my lack of C knowledge is showing, but - we've got 'int monsters::body_weight(bool /*base*/) const' in monsters.cc, but 'monsters::body_weight' is not refeences anywhere else. Does that mean it isn't used at all, or am I missing something? 14:54:05 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:54:06 Twinge: it'll be called as a method body_weight on some monster object 14:54:37 My pressing of 5 is very fast :O 14:55:18 dpeg: start up a game in 0.5 and press 5 14:55:31 doy: it was faster? 14:55:38 much 14:55:44 never noted 14:55:46 doy: compare in and outside temple? 14:56:13 non-debug build takes looooong 14:56:14 by: i'll check this evening, don't have a copy of it available at the moment 14:56:18 On the bright side, I just had Sigmung, Yiuf and Jessice on D:2. The clustering may be too much but their mere presence is good. 14:56:21 yeah, it really really does 14:56:27 that's why i never do them 14:57:11 doy: The part that is confusing me is that monsters have a weight, but then monsters::body_weight is a weight that is set based on their size rather than their weight then awkwardly hackishly tweaked for special cases. 14:57:23 Twinge: yeah, no idea 14:58:45 oops, we have a tiles bug 14:59:58 rob? not sure you can help in this: when you use an item by clicking on it, it blanks the message window before you can read what happened 15:00:56 For snakes: Grey => Anaconda ; Black => Mamba ; What did yellow become? 15:01:09 @??viper 15:01:09 viper (08S) | Speed: 13 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 4/14 | Damage: 1504(medium poison) | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(24), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 195. 15:01:20 doy, thanks. 15:02:14 hmmm 15:02:22 looks like swamp is now a later-game branch 15:03:59 alligators significantly stronger than hydras 15:04:49 doy: oh, was alligator > hydra intended? 15:04:54 seems very unexpected to me 15:04:55 not sure 15:04:59 @??alligator 15:04:59 alligator (12t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30, 15 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(48) | XP: 1089 | Sp: swiftness. 15:05:19 speed 10, act 8, swim 6, sp:swiftness, damage: 30, 15 15:05:23 i mean... 15:05:57 Aren't thgey non-hostle to start though? 15:06:04 at least you can run from hydras 15:06:04 They are also vulnerable to poison 15:06:21 @??hydra 15:06:21 hydra (09D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | Health: 39-104 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(52), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 1214. 15:07:05 doy: not quite clear, with many heads, the hydra is worse 15:08:08 i don't know, speed 8 is significant 15:08:22 well, delay 8, whatever 15:08:31 No feedback visible on item-usage (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=572) by Napkin 15:09:01 doy: but with two heads, the hydra already has overtaken 15:09:13 dpeg: each hydra head is individually reduced by ac 15:09:18 -!- Twinge- has quit [No route to host] 15:09:49 and hydras can only ever attack once per normal turn 15:10:04 doy: how does two attacks per hydra head compare unfavourably against alligator bites with 80% speed? 15:10:18 dpeg: 80% means 80% delay 15:10:25 so speed of like 12 15:10:25 yes, I know 15:10:36 so 6 attacks in 5 turns 15:11:40 swim is only used for movement speed, yeah? 15:11:58 TGWi: yes 15:12:01 cool! 15:12:42 hmmm, maybe alligator ac/ev is also a factor 15:12:46 i think hydras are easier since you can hit n run 15:12:52 @??alligator 15:12:52 alligator (12t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30, 15 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(48) | XP: 1089 | Sp: swiftness. 15:12:58 dpeg, hydra damage is greatly reduced, especially for heavy armour wearers, since the dmg per head is subject to the heavy armour reduction. 15:13:16 but why not the same for bites? 15:13:24 ok, doy - action GET is now default 15:13:28 ah, the double damage 15:13:31 dpeg: damage 30 vs damage 18 is a pretty big difference 15:13:34 30 vs 18 15:13:34 Napkin: awesome, thanks 15:13:52 4-headed hydra probably deals more than an alligator 15:14:11 TGWi, 'possibly' and although it could deal more dmg than an alligator 15:14:12 TGWi: in a single turn, possibly, but alligators have attack delay of 8 15:14:23 the chance of it doing more dmg is incredibly unlikely. 15:14:24 doy: :| 15:14:25 also, as you attack a hydra, it gets weaker 15:14:27 You know you can ask FightClub these questions :P 15:14:28 I don't see why 15:14:35 hydra >> alligator 15:14:37 the fast speed I mean 15:14:46 greensnark: well AC 15:14:47 greensnark: cool way to come in :) 15:14:48 If someone could have a look at issue 572, please? I don't wanna downgrade my dad's installation ;) 15:15:03 was due serious about "dwarf crocodile?" 15:15:03 greensnarking! 15:15:08 because I would very much appreciate that 15:15:09 greensnark, can you fightclub vs a player? I thought you could only fightclub vs other creatures 15:15:15 Napkin: Johanna showed Crawl to our mother last Sunday. 15:15:22 ahhh - and? 15:15:24 Oh, I'm used to people complaining about big damage attacks that bypass AC :P 15:15:25 dpeg, Johanna is your sister? 15:15:31 !fight alligator v donald 15:15:42 No varmin in here :) 15:15:43 Napkin: she was impressed, but she wouldn't play it (just as jpeg told you). 15:15:46 Cryp71c: yes 15:15:51 hehe :) 15:15:54 pshh 15:16:03 she'd be more impressed if she played it - no doubt :) 15:16:06 *even more 15:16:08 dpeg, haha, I didn't know that. I didn't catch onto the similarity in your names' 15:16:49 greensnark, plus fightclub doesn't consider things like the heavy armour dmg reduction 15:16:57 does it? 15:16:57 greensnark: doy made a roadmap for 0.6 release! 15:17:02 cryp: nor do players :P 15:17:12 TGWi, ...wha? 15:17:52 donald gets ridiculous weapons 15:18:02 donald; nothing? 15:18:06 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:testing_and_polish_needed_for_0.6_release 15:18:25 dpeg: Yes, I saw it. Nice :) 15:20:14 dpeg, can I message you real quick? 15:20:18 Cryp71c: yes 15:20:49 hydra > alligator :) 15:21:08 is there a reason alligators attack fast instead of dealing more damage? 15:21:57 shrug, i've been dealing fine with hydras all game and this alligator nearly killed me 15:22:19 and after nearly killing me, i could barely even escape while hasted 15:22:22 shrug 15:22:26 I think having different threats is good 15:22:29 And the Swamp was too easy 15:22:32 So! 15:22:33 yes 15:22:34 true enough 15:22:37 greensnark: also needed more xp! 15:22:44 i'll go do snake now 15:22:44 (: 15:22:48 Well, alligators aren't going to fix the xp gap :P 15:23:22 greensnark: :( 15:23:50 just make swamp deep enough already 15:23:56 this means that gettng Swamp is always a dud? 15:24:02 you could increase swamp drake / dragon exp 15:24:10 that would affect basically nothing else 15:24:16 TGWi: but why? 15:24:19 except that one orc entrnace nobody likes 15:24:39 doy: I thought the goal was to increase swamp's experience relative to the other branches 15:24:55 "randomly give monsters more xp" isn't the correct solution 15:24:55 d: 15:24:56 TGWi: does really nobody like it? I don't.... Shall I remove? 15:25:03 dpeg: i like it! 15:25:05 green: Well sharks got nerfed so their xp will be dropped once I make my next patch 15:25:06 oya! 15:25:09 okay even 15:25:10 dpeg: I like it 15:25:33 hehe, it is impossible to get concensus on questions like this :) 15:25:55 oops, that's not snake 15:25:58 doy: to be fair, swamp drakes are nasty 15:26:00 @??swamp drake 15:26:00 swamp drake (07l) | Speed: 11 | HD: 4 | Health: 20-40 | AC/EV: 3/11 | Damage: 14 | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(16), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 86 | Sp: mephitic cloud. 15:26:06 and seriously 86? 15:26:08 TGWi: meh, not especially 15:26:21 TGW: Noted. 15:26:23 it's swamp 15:26:26 probably worth a bit more than 86 15:26:28 @??swamp dragon 15:26:28 swamp dragon (07D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 45-90 | AC/EV: 7/7 | Damage: 18, 9, 9 | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(36), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 682 | Sp: poisonous cloud. 15:26:30 but not by that much 15:26:35 swamp dragons are definitely fine 15:26:37 that seems closer to good 15:26:42 @??death drake 15:26:42 death drake (15l) | Speed: 13 | HD: 9 | Health: 45-108 | AC/EV: 6/14 | Damage: 12 | Flags: cold-blooded, fly | Res: 06magic(36), 03poison | Chunks: 04hydrochloric acid | XP: 827 | Sp: miasma. 15:27:19 The issue is not that Swamp would get more xp (that's good) but providing more xp altogether (grrr!). 15:27:21 I'll accept them at that experience value, but only if you make miasma a player spell :P 15:27:40 dpeg, hm? 15:27:44 @??swamp worm 15:27:44 swamp worm (07w) | Speed: 12 | HD: 5 | Health: 25-50 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 20 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 168. 15:27:55 swamp drake worth less than swamp worm is definitely wrong 15:28:12 the exp formula doesn't consider miasma to be a spell worth boosting the xp value over 15:28:17 which is likely an oversight 15:28:21 and should probably be changed 15:28:22 (: 15:28:39 wait, it's that much experience without even counting miasma? huh 15:29:09 TGWi: I am saying that a flat out xp increase is not good. 15:29:31 dpeg: wasn't greensnark working on the other angle? 15:29:44 doy: oh, there is a formula generating these odd values? I always thought these are the results of madmen at keyboards. 15:29:54 !source exper_value 15:30:02 Lines pasted to http://pastebin.com/m4ee13b0d 15:30:11 dpeg: you would get more accurate results with madmen at keyboards 15:30:14 TGWi: the whole idea of not adding a branch, but having it replace another one is born out of balance concerns. 15:30:16 a better overall formula would be *great* 15:30:21 this one kinda sucks 15:30:34 but that would require a lot of thought 15:30:48 dpeg: well, it doesn't change the game as much this way, but you have to make the branches actually balanced 15:30:48 Twinge: you changed some xp values lately... how, given the formula? 15:31:01 dpeg: each monster has an xp modifier value also 15:31:02 as I understand it, it generates a value and then twinge complains about it and it gets hacked to someting else 15:31:05 TGWi: it would be *much worse* if we just added a branch. 15:31:26 dpeg: I'm not suggesting you not make it replace a branch :| 15:31:42 # 15:31:44 // These four are the original arguments. 15:31:44 # 15:31:44 const int mclass = monster->type; 15:31:44 # 15:31:46 const int mHD = monster->hit_dice; 15:31:49 # 15:31:51 const int maxhp = monster->max_hit_points; 15:31:54 # 15:31:56 three values listed <3 15:32:00 (: 15:32:15 what I'm reading is that swamp has way less experience in it than either of the alternates, despite that it should be the same 15:32:15 yes? 15:32:37 TGWi: with the monsters in it currently, it shouldn't be the same 15:32:43 the problem is that swamp is too easy 15:32:45 as greensnark said 15:32:46 ah, fair enoug 15:32:52 and enonugh 15:32:54 TGWi: the original plan was that Swamp provides more xp than Shoals 15:32:55 and enough 15:33:18 yeah, it is also a lot easier 15:33:24 * TGWi shakes fist at shoals 15:33:35 doy: should I think about that formula? (Serious question.) 15:33:51 The XP formula is not a 0.6 concern; possibly 0.7 15:33:54 dpeg: that would be great 15:34:08 doy: okay, will make a remark 15:34:27 It does need to be revamped, but would need a lot of careful tweaking and consideration. Until then, manual tweaks by individual monsters will suffice. 15:34:31 i'd much prefer a sane formula than going through and making arbitrary judgements about every single monster in the game 15:34:37 Twinge: right 15:34:43 let me ask again: how can twinge change xp values for monsters, given the formula? 15:34:55 dpeg: There's a modifier adjustment 15:34:56 dpeg: the formula's result is multiplied by a per-monster value 15:35:00 ah, I see 15:35:01 In the monster data 15:35:05 awful 15:35:18 const int modifier = _mons_exp_mod(mclass); 15:35:23 this is as bad as madmen hacking numbers into keyboards 15:35:28 yes 15:35:28 dpeg: Worse. 15:35:29 (: 15:35:38 yes, long live the madmen 15:35:42 that spell xp modifier list is especially ridiculous 15:35:44 Because I can't even set a specific XP value or anything 15:35:45 -!- dpeg is now known as madpeg 15:36:30 I can only set the adjustment (well easily, anyway) which is imprecise 15:36:46 But as I said, works for now 15:36:49 what is the variance in monster xp multipliers? 15:37:09 dpeg: this is why slow, big monsters get so much xp, by the way - the xp formula is linear in monster speed, but quadratic in monster hd 15:37:12 Twinge: I don't think we want individual xp values for monsters in the end 15:37:16 Depends on the monster, but it's a number that defaults to 10, and is tweaked from there. 15:37:45 dpeg: No, but lacking a good formula, setting exact numbers is a lot more useful than adjsuting a modifier :) 15:38:31 For example, I was inable to set jackal to a straight 2exp -- it had to be the 1.8 average it is now, OR a 27 average, nothing in between 15:38:39 *2.7 15:39:51 But anyway, like I said, not a big deal right now; it will do the job to make XP 'good', just not 'great'. 15:40:03 -!- jld has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:40:34 @??giant mosquito 15:40:34 giant mosquito (16y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 1 | Health: 3-8 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 1007(disease) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(4) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 7. 15:40:51 ^^ modifier of 48 15:40:55 Yep :) 15:41:04 @??rat 15:41:04 rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1. 15:41:07 They used to give 1.8exp 15:41:08 ^^ modifier of 1 15:41:18 The mosquitos that is 15:41:19 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 15:41:54 rat would probably be the same at like a 6 modifier or so, but the minimum is 1 so it was easy to just set to 1 15:42:03 jessica is a 106 modifier 15:42:31 er, 125 even, hehe 15:42:44 (Forgot I hadn't updated my spreadsheet after the last changes) 15:42:53 well, jessica's would be fine even with this formula if spell xp modifiers actually made sense 15:43:00 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:06 probably, anyway 15:43:26 i think it's also partially because 1hd monsters have no real way of getting any significant xp 15:43:28 While we're talking about this - was anything else notably nerfed by the recent water changes besides swamp worms, sharks, and (to a lesser extent) fish? 15:43:43 doy: Spell XP mods are based on specifics spells only. Haste and Slow are not in that list. 15:43:54 Twinge: that's my point 15:45:29 worms/sharks no longer have their double damage I was told; dunno if that drastically affects anything else 15:49:58 -!- purge has quit ["."] 15:51:39 "No, but lacking a good formula, setting exact numbers is a lot more useful than adjsuting a modifier" 15:51:43 I strongly disagree. 15:52:15 yeah, it's a lot harder to keep things reasonable relative to each other that way 15:52:15 It is worth thinking about the appropriate xp values. But setting them all by hand (which is what you'll get with your approach) is not good. 15:52:33 considering there are like 400 different monsters that need balancing against each other 15:52:38 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 15:52:48 also, we'll need a formula for things like player ghosts and pan lords anyway 15:52:55 yes, the numbers all drown in a sea of multipliers 15:52:58 doy: yes 15:53:29 So having good target xp values is crucial (this is what Twinge is doing). But that can only be a first step towards a better xp formula. 15:53:34 right 15:53:55 For example, there is no reason not to use Haste in the formula. 15:54:13 all monster spells should have an xp modifier 15:54:20 of one kind or another 15:54:33 yes 15:55:40 is it just "times a for spell x, times b for spell y..." for each spell? 15:55:57 currently yes 15:57:53 @??kobold demonologist 15:57:53 kobold demonologist (06K) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 2/13 | Damage: 4 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: 06magic(26) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 77 | Sp: call imp, demon, cantrip. 15:57:54 it might be beneficial to take into account spell combinations in the future though 15:58:01 I mean 15:58:04 haste + slow, things like that 15:58:14 Twinge: this is not meant to degrade your work, which is very helpful. I am trying to get the correct long term goal. 15:58:15 it should add the multipliers and divide it all by the number of spells 15:58:34 TGWi: perhaps 15:58:46 not all spells are equally likely to be cast though 15:58:53 hm 15:59:05 monsters have specific spell slots that they use in specific situations 15:59:06 also, a bunch of them would work better as additive bonuses 15:59:08 summons etc 15:59:24 doy: how differently are slots 1-5 used? 16:01:28 TGWi: the slots are 'bolt', 'enchantment', 'self-enchantment', 'misc', 'misc', 'emergency' 16:01:36 but that really only refers to how the ai chooses the spell 16:01:42 any spell can go in any slot 16:01:54 right, and what's the difference between how it chooses 1-5 16:02:16 start reading the monster ai code d: 16:02:51 ??monsters 16:02:51 monsters[1/1]: Type @?monstername in this channel (or in a PM to Gretell), or see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/crawl_ss_monsters_by_name.html If you want to see the stats of a monster in trunk, use @?? instead of @? 16:04:29 hellions have every slot other than self-enchantment filled with hellfire burst 16:04:35 which is what makes them so ridiculous 16:04:36 (: 16:07:40 dpeg: Sure, I agree that the formula needs fixed - i several ways. I briefly looked at getting into that myself, but decided it'd be too much to try for before 0.6. I was just saying I'd rather be able to set exact figures versus merely adjusting the modifier - 'well the XP can be 230 or 184, pick the better of those 2 numbers' 16:08:23 what were yellow snakes renamed to btw? 16:08:32 @??viper 16:08:32 viper (08S) | Speed: 13 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 4/14 | Damage: 1504(medium poison) | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(24), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 195. 16:08:41 Twinge: also, tweaking the formula to allow that would be pretty easy 16:08:47 Make beetles, worms, oozes act at normal speed (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=573) by TGW 16:08:58 just make everything based around 100 instead of 10 16:10:01 doy: True. Hmm. Eh, there wasn't anything that was a significant problem the way it is now, so I guess we'll just leave it until we do the full formula overhaul. Thanks for pointing that out though. 16:10:30 (: 16:12:24 -!- by has quit ["leaving"] 16:13:35 do we really need two messages for constriction? 16:13:49 "The anaconda constricts you!\nYou are being crushed." 16:14:17 if the messages were the same, people would get them confused 16:14:27 what? 16:14:43 just kidding I have no idea 16:16:03 Twinge: oh, and "fixing that formula" is nowhere a 0.7 goal. That'd be as preposterous as the "overhauled combat system" we had once in the agenda. 16:16:18 (: 16:16:51 doy: no. We have too many loose messages anyway. 16:17:23 -!- CIA-74 has quit [] 16:19:00 Twinge: for now, we should just try to get a feeling for xp values. And which multipliers could be systematised (that means: formulated). In the end, a picture may emerge. 16:22:25 also, time to go home 16:23:51 constriction messages (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=574) by doy 16:24:07 dpeg: Why, I'd like to see an overhauled combat system for 0.7 ;D (XP formula is easier and more feasible though I think, so it's a possibility though not a primary goal.) 16:25:21 Twinge: the 0.7 agenda should only have topics where we have a vague idea of how to proceed :) 16:25:53 And if you want a new combat system, Crawl will go to the way of Nethack, knocking at 4.2's door briefly. 16:26:55 I would approve of a NetHack mod for 0.7 16:27:01 Pfft. It's not impossible. If I understood the current one, I could probably work on making a new one, haha. 16:27:38 Twinge: it's not impossible, but we haven't put any amount of thought into what it would require yet 16:28:02 this isn't to say that it couldn't go into 0.7... look at all the things that tend to sneak into releases when nobody is looking 16:28:05 (: 16:29:10 bhaak: You are free to come up with Crawl-de :P 16:30:58 doy: Well, I wouldn't be covering the coding part, but I could potentially cover the balance part fairly well, if I focused on it and learned how the awkwardness of the current system work 16:31:30 Twinge: dedicated wiki page! Long term thinking :) 16:31:31 -!- Mu_ has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."] 16:31:31 madpeg: let me first finish the other one, before I open up another can of worms :) 16:32:22 bhaak: can UnNH ever be finished? (I.e. do you have a finalised wishlist?) 16:33:25 madpeg: with "the other one", I meant nh-de :) but for unnethack I still have some bigger changes I'd like to make (e.g. a good Gehennom) 16:33:40 dpeg: Nod. Not right now, though. As I said I'll have to fully understand the current set up before I'll know properly how to fix it =) For now I'll just tweak some more numbers. (Working on weights/sizes now) 16:34:22 madpeg: as soon as I embed a scripting language into unnethack, I will be reaching the final stages :-) 16:34:32 Twinge: did you start a page about such? 16:34:32 Eronarn: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:34:36 !messages 16:34:36 (1/1) Twinge said (9h 51m 49s ago): Start making a list of mobs you'd like to see speed adjsutments for then, and maybe start discussing them with due/dpeg/etc. I've started noting problem areas for sizes and masses. 16:34:40 bhaak: bhaak oh, so there is an end in sight. Cool. 16:34:53 Eronarn: Not yet; working with a spreadsheet offline. 16:35:07 Twinge: what i would suggest is we start by making a page with which properties we want to look at 16:35:39 a list off the top of my head: weight, size, AC, EV, attack speed, move speed, constriction-ness, asphyx-ness, water status, intelligence, equipment use 16:35:49 What should overmap display, for discovered branches, for characters who start in the abyss? 16:36:06 henryci: nothing 16:36:14 so only Dungeon (0/27) 16:36:36 Okay. Well I'm only looking at Weight & Size right now (and a few mroe XP tweaks I missed the first time, or since things changed)... and I've already got some 100 odd changes there alone, haha 16:36:40 Eronarn, Twinge: what do you want to do to these numbers? 16:36:46 dpeg: think we can get rid of ck[lugonu] for 0.7? 16:36:47 (: 16:37:04 doy: I am not sure, I think they're okay. You hate them? 16:37:11 i do 16:37:25 madpeg: weight/size is a pretty simple one: the weights/sizes are really, really messed up. They make no sense at all. If they're changed to make sense, we can use these properties more. 16:37:31 lugonu would be much cooler as a late game god, like jivya 16:37:46 dpeg: Make them better, of course! Weight & Size is mostly sanity checks; they were largely defined arbitrarily, and bears are bigger than dragons, tiny spiders are bigger than ogres, etc. right now 16:37:49 lugonu is pretty powerful early game though 16:37:54 doy: I still don't see the conflict. For anyone bar a CK of L, L *is* a late game god. 16:38:17 things like asphyx or constriction are a similar sanity check 16:38:17 Twinge: oh, didn't know that. Sounds like true madmen at work :) 16:38:22 the problem with L is that nobody switches to him because they already have somebody. 16:38:30 henryci: this is not true. 16:38:34 speed, AC, EV are the contentious ones 16:38:35 dpeg: because ck[lugonu] exists, people are going to be a lot less likely to consider switching to him 16:38:35 Can someone provide numbers? 16:38:56 i say there are many monsters who have speeds that are flat out bad design - lke ancient liches 16:39:07 we should, at least, note these even if no change at this time 16:39:07 doy: I don't understand. Whenever I get banished and I see an altar to L, I consider switching (and I did so, too). 16:39:23 Eronarn: One issue is that weight also defines corpse existance. A weight of 0 is a no corpsoe indicator - if we cant statues/etc. to have defined weights we'll need to do more than a number change, I think. (Though there is some odd bit of code about giving monsters weights by size, so many that gives a default if they have no weight defined; not 100% sure on that.) 16:39:25 Eronarn: yes, sounds good to me. I wasn't aware of the project. 16:39:30 dpeg: pretty sure you're not typical there, although i may be wrong 16:39:31 (: 16:39:46 can someone provide numbers of conversions to L? 16:40:00 Eronarn, Twinge: would it be good to outsource monster data in text files? 16:40:06 it's quite possible to get banished before you're strong enough to handle the abyss confidently, in which case lugonu is pretty attractive 16:40:07 madpeg: i have wanted to do it for a while, but wanted to get other people involved too. The idea being we come up with a list of potential changes to be looked at per-case, then look at each case. Once. Rather than having to do this every time we want to evaluate a monster property. 16:40:12 madpeg: yes 16:40:32 Yeah, probably. I'm working off a 0.5.2 dump copies into Excel right now 16:40:34 the current format is hideous 16:40:36 !lg * god=lugonu class!=ck 16:40:40 i suppose it depends who you're abandoning, i've swapped from nemelex a fair few times 16:40:44 246. Ping the Swashbuckler (L19 KoAs), worshipper of Lugonu, blasted by a lich (bolt of fire) on Vault:8 on 2010-01-25, with 185406 points after 78169 turns and 8:28:55. 16:40:47 !lg * god=lugonu class=ck 16:40:48 7348. quru the Skirmisher (L3 OgCK), worshipper of Lugonu, succumbed to poison on D:2 on 2010-01-26, with 196 points after 2408 turns and 0:15:27. 16:40:59 doy: the question of whether switching to L *right now* would be ideal or not is completely disjoint from the presence of CK[L] 16:41:03 !lg * god=lugonu class!=ck ktyp=winning 16:41:03 55. hyperbolic the Spry (L27 HaGl), worshipper of Lugonu, escaped with the Orb and 5 runes on 2009-12-30, with 2314582 points after 104147 turns and 11:47:09. 16:41:06 Twinge: it would be easy enough to make weight separate from corpseness 16:41:08 !lg * god=lugonu class=ck ktyp=winning 16:41:08 25. coolrobin the Skullcrusher (L27 OgCK), worshipper of Lugonu, escaped with the Orb and 14 runes on 2009-11-01, with 8581170 points after 169161 turns and 16:55:03. 16:41:57 doy: MarvinPA has a good point. Once we'll have saner wraths, L will become a bit more attractive. 16:42:05 madpeg: people make decisions about these things based on things other than the state of their current game though 16:42:08 Eronarn: Probably. Just depends on how important it is I guess. It'd be a good thing I imagine, to have weight strictly set once by monster -- allows it to be used for more things, and removes awkward special cases. 16:42:10 madpeg: one thing that i also want to do is consider new monster types or flags, if this is ok with you. For example: "spirit". Things that aren't "true" demons, but aren't ghosts. 16:42:27 doy: fair enough. But that has no impact on the usefulness of L in the Abyss. 16:42:29 For example: rakshasa, efreet, the holy spirits proposed for the holy monster revamp 16:42:33 possibly insubstantial wisps 16:42:38 Best I can figure, right now monsters without weights are corpseless, but given a weight based on their size, but then hackishly tweaked if they're statues, an iron devil, or aa few other cases. 16:42:40 possibly elementals 16:42:40 Eronarn: sure, come up with ideas. 16:43:38 doy: if I understand you correctly, your point is that the existence of CK[L] removes some replayability potential. Whereas I say that the presence of CK[L] allows players to get a feeling for the Abyss without losing a good game each time, thus reducing spoiler need. 16:43:48 There's a NO_CORPSE flag or whatever, BUT that currently overlaps with vampire drinking blood from living opponents or something to that effect, so that can't always be used either 16:44:00 I think that both points are valid and it's just a matter of priorities. 16:44:06 Twinge: one thing we could do is add a strength value for monsters and use this in the weight formula 16:44:19 strength? 16:44:22 Eronarn: strength tiers rather, perhaps? 16:44:52 for example: weight = base value derived from size category, then modified by how strong/bulky/muscly the monster is 16:45:13 madpeg: sure, it could be tiers too. Or density, instead of just strength. 16:45:28 Possible, but eh, not sure. And yes it would be density. 16:45:28 could also use maxhp (or average hp) for that purpose 16:45:49 Does anybody know why this condition "if (crawl_state.need_save || !crawl_state.updating_scores)" wraps all of the messages in the overmap display ? 16:46:02 among two monsters of the same size, the one with more hp is more durable, so probably heavier 16:46:08 Twinge: there are some possible values to just inherently tracking the strenght of monsters, though 16:46:19 madpeg: on the other hand, orcs :) 16:46:25 dpeg: That wouldn't pass sanity checks in the end, I think. There's some oddities. 16:46:35 just saying 16:46:54 i think it would be ok if we tracked monster str, int, dex as actual values scaled to the same level as players 16:46:56 try to fight the urge to inflate flags/numbers/etc. 16:47:00 they don't have to use the same formulas 16:47:04 henryci: sorry, I don't know 16:47:10 Eronarn: of course 16:47:14 but it would be probably the simplest way to describe what a monster is actually *like* 16:47:23 henryci: can't you just do the same? :) 16:47:28 Eronarn: I'd err towards not adding any new monster data right now, and only tweak what's there 16:47:30 I can, I just want to know the why of it. 16:47:40 Except maybe fix the no corpse thing 16:48:21 Twinge: with the sheer number of monsters, i think it is better to address everything in one go. We don't have to actually add everything in right now, but we should at least look at them 16:49:02 this will save us from having to go through the entire monster list again when we decide to look at the other stuff 16:49:20 and it will provide a guideline for any new monsters, as to what info the creator should be providing 16:49:29 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 16:49:42 Eronarn: Well, it isn't actually any easier to adjust a lot of this stuff at once rather than in bits IMO. I mean, I'd definitely wwant to look at AC/EV/Speed/Damage all together, but the Weights & Sizes for example can be tweaked whenever easily enough without doing it at the same time as anything else. 16:50:31 Twinge: we don't need to necessarily come up with exact values, just things like: "why is this monster speed 11 instead of speed 10" 16:50:41 or "why is the EV on orbs of fire so high" 16:50:45 Nod. 16:50:51 trunk requires XCode 3.2 to build on Mac OS X? 16:51:18 The new + code is really messing up wizard and Ctrl + X (xom debugging) you have to sit there and hold space to get past ALL the + prompts 16:51:32 and it takes forever (I regularly do 1000 iterations so I get good results) 16:51:36 Twinge: i think what we may want to do is, get an extract based off of current trunk stats 16:51:40 Cryp71c: you can disable it 16:51:44 and put that into google docs (better simultaneous editing than the wiki) 16:51:44 Everything at once does also run the risk of getting overloaded and bogging down - I can handle it fine but I think a lot of people gloss over it when there's too much data given at once (for example, my ideas for aptitude tweaks were pretty ignored because of this I think - I should maybe just focus on Hafling & Kobold if I want anyone to pay attention) 16:51:48 doy, how, that would be immensely helpful 16:51:57 not sure, there's an option 16:52:00 :P 16:52:10 Twinge: data overload is a good point 16:52:16 have everyone interested in doing a run through do whichever monsters they feel like, mark their thoughts, mark that they lookd at it 16:52:28 then for any monster with, say, 2+ people who looked at it we mark it as "done" 16:52:40 qualitative information is better for most than numbers 16:53:24 madpeg: i think it would actually be good to revisit monster descriptions, on that note 16:53:35 dpeg: Yeah, could be. However it's more effort to translate it back and forth, so to speak, and I prefer the numbers myself so it's kind of tedious to do it other ways ;) 16:53:37 see which monsters people think wildly divergent things about 16:53:44 Eronarn: well, that is true all the tmie 16:53:50 Yes, monster descriptions do need help as well. 16:53:51 for example: people who think draconians are a large race, people who can't figure out what ice beasts are supposed to be 16:53:56 But I suggest you don't do all these things at once. 16:53:58 Wizard Mode Ctrl + X Takes forever! (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=575) by Cryptic 16:54:02 'Giant Centipede: "It has a lot of legs!" 16:54:11 Twinge: good example. how big is 'giant'? 16:54:35 making comments about which monsters need better most urgently (i.e. a priority list) would help a lot, though 16:54:39 I already tagged on my little list to rename 'giant bat' to 'bat', but not sure on any of the others. 16:55:17 'all the dungeon, items, and monsters shrunk down in size. all giant monsters replaced with normal sized ones' 16:55:56 madpeg: we can do this with google docs pretty well - priority column, default sort by it 16:56:29 we can also do things like, have all the data there in an expanded view, but have the default view be just what we're mostly intersted in at this time 16:56:40 Just don't put too much on your plate. 16:56:47 Anyway, I am about to head out for the evening; we'll talk about this more later. Figure out whatever the easiest waqy would be to show both the old and new numbers for the various data points 16:56:57 I'll go, too. 16:57:02 Twinge: i haven o idea how to best get an extract of monster stats :) 16:57:24 Ah, neither do I :P 16:57:40 That's why I'm using a 0.5.2 online dump of it 16:57:47 Anyone know the build command to turn off the + message prompts? 16:58:29 by would know 16:58:32 -!- madpeg has quit ["cheers"] 16:59:30 Cryp71c: not a build command, a game option 16:59:37 look through options_guide.txt 17:01:09 -!- Anym has joined ##crawl-dev 17:01:22 Hi again. 17:03:39 -!- CIA-78 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:03:50 -!- murphy_slaw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:04:51 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:04:51 -!- murphy_slaw_ is now known as murphy_slaw 17:05:18 doy, should I open a mantis ticket with my snakes to sticks, or stick it on the wiki? 17:05:33 Cryp71c: if it's a full patch, put it on mantis 17:05:47 tag it with has_patch 17:08:38 03by * r98003eee41c1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor-los.cc actor.cc actor.h los_def.cc los_def.h): Hack monster LOS to reduce updates. 17:12:43 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:06 Xom Snakes to Sticks (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=576) by Cryptic 17:15:17 Morning 17:15:18 due: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 17:15:21 !messages 17:15:21 (1/3) st__ said (8h 27m 48s ago): Mara just wrecked my shit hardcore! 17:15:25 Awesome! 17:15:25 !messages 17:15:26 (1/2) Mu_ said (6h 10m 39s ago): Hellbinder wizlab got a hellbinder named upun, but referred to him as "The Upun." one successful meph dunks him in his lava, so his room might need adjusting. 17:15:33 Oh, hm. 17:15:35 !messages 17:15:35 (1/1) st_ said (4h 7m 57s ago): sticking mentioned something about getting exp when leading pikel off the level he spawned on, not sure if he imagined it but maybe look into it? 17:15:49 st_: That was intended. 17:17:38 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 17:19:05 hey nrook. 17:20:25 -!- nrook has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:21:03 kilobyte: Thanks or fixxing the shadow glyph thing. 17:23:28 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 17:28:38 !log 17:28:41 1247. bookofjude, XL4 MfIE, T:1861: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/bookofjude/morgue-bookofjude-20100126-081416.txt 17:32:31 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:34:11 [Tiles] Wizmode-created mimics are "invisible" until hit (g01c72a7) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=577) by jpeg 17:34:49 Hm, probably don't get initialised with a tile when placed. Odd. 17:35:41 Oh, hooray, the direction rewrite merge is in? 17:59:43 yup! 18:00:04 hey doy 18:01:12 looks like by also pushed something that might help with the performance issues 18:01:15 * doy tests 18:01:38 due: beetles already got buffed 18:01:38 Yeah, bye bye monster haloes :( 18:01:47 TGWi: Then they don't need to be nerfed. 18:01:57 due: nerfed? you're nuts 18:03:02 an *action* speed of 10 for beetles/worms/oozes means you can't whack them with a knife forever anymore 18:03:06 @??giant beetle 18:03:06 giant beetle (02B) | Speed: 5 | HD: 5 | Health: 35-65 | AC/EV: 10/3 | Damage: 30 | Res: 06magic(20) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 48. 18:03:09 Er, buffed. 18:03:18 yes they do 18:03:19 Sorry, they don't need to get buffed again. 18:03:23 they're already strong melee threats. 18:03:46 no, they are not 18:03:54 you can kite any of those enemies completely trivially 18:04:22 I love reading the SourceForge forums and watchin gthem whinge about Swamp endings. 18:04:35 to be fair, undead swamp 18:04:36 can we pleeeease close sf 18:04:48 and uh, sourceforge forums? 18:04:59 either I'm missing something huge, or SA? 18:05:30 due: the choice should be "fight or run," not "trivialize or don't bother" 18:06:39 (randomizing speeds would fix *this* issue too! how about that!) 18:06:49 SA. 18:06:52 Sorry, SA, not SF. 18:07:14 doy: :P 18:07:29 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=135 18:07:45 Helical Nightmares posted: 18:07:45 Holy Christ on a Stick! 18:07:45 Enter my Demonspawn (above) into Swamp 5. Ok. One corridor entry in the upper right to get to the rune. Hydras I'm fine with. Zombie and spectral hydras are ok too. But did you HAVE to flood the ONLY ENTRANCE with miasma and throw in a loving Oklob that I didn't know about until I turned the corner too?? 18:07:50 The Skeletal Dragon was a nice touch. I barely escaped with my life. 18:07:52 So into Snake I go. What the gently caress. My character is extremely resistant to magic. Extremely. Doesn't matter a drat to Mara, who misleads, casts illusions and starts doing 25 damage a pop with whatever spell she is using. On the first level of Snake no less. 18:07:57 Still alive. Anyone got strategies on Mara in Trunk? 18:07:59 Haha. You think that Swamp end was bad? My last character that made it there got one where the only entrance was covered in freezing vapors (goodbye, potions!) and it was filled with like 6 ice dragons and a shitload of hydra simulacra. Do you have any idea how much damage those hydrae can put out? They're almost worse than regular ones, except they die in a stiff breeze. 18:08:04 Oh, and I also found Mara in the Vaults and I ended up having to skip that level. He's loving insanely hard. 18:08:08 Whoa holyy paste batman. 18:08:09 Sorry, I was just trying to paste the middle paragraph, somehow copy caught the whole thing. 18:08:20 What's the plan for submerging monsters? 18:08:34 pointless_: Deleeete, deleeete. 18:08:35 pointless_: the proposal is on the wiki 18:08:40 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:water_creatures_overhaul#amphibiousness_proposal_mark_2 18:08:45 It's on that page smoewhere. 18:08:51 But look! Mara love! Swamp ending love! 18:09:18 Is submerging still retained? 18:09:29 Yeah, it's still existant, but it's defined by a flag. 18:09:39 ok but monsters will still submerge sometimes 18:09:46 I don't care about the details 18:09:57 Yes, they'll still submerge, this may change. 18:10:17 pointless_: they'll submerge when moving to attack, not when fleeing 18:10:21 that's the main point 18:10:40 03pointless_ * r9f3742434e48 10/crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc enum.h godabil.cc): Let sunlight auto-target disturbances in water again 18:11:16 @'s "extremely resistant to magic" should definitely definitely change to "extremely resistant to hostile enchantments" 18:11:33 Agree. 18:11:37 Mr -> enchantment resistance. 18:11:47 (and pain) 18:11:52 Magic resistance confuses *everyone*, though. 18:11:54 Like all the nwe people 18:11:55 like, I know MR is being changed 18:11:57 Including myself 18:12:07 but this is literally a one word change 18:12:10 thought that MR counts towards conjurations, etc 18:12:12 TGWi: Yes, will do. 18:12:15 :D 18:15:41 should mf imitate enemy aphibians 18:15:42 ? 18:15:58 In what sense? 18:16:17 the new amphibious rules 18:16:21 no speed bonus, no attack bonus 18:16:45 @??merfolk 18:16:45 merfolk (02m) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 9 | Health: 18-54 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 18 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(36) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 188. 18:16:49 ok, just attack bonus 18:18:47 Keskitalo: you around? 18:19:40 !tell Keskitalo The windows tiles version on your page crashes on load, can you find out if the latest trunk tiles build works? 18:19:40 purge: OK, I'll let Keskitalo know. 18:20:54 purge: I'll update 'em. 18:21:11 purge: Will take about ten minutes though. 18:24:24 'There is a strange disturbance in the water here' no longer displayed (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=578) by caotto 18:25:20 !tell by that helped a decent amount (it's about twice as fast as before), but still nowhere near 0.5 speeds/: 18:25:20 doy: OK, I'll let by know. 18:26:25 due: ok thanks 18:28:42 purge: New tiles version up 18:28:46 Can you let me know if it works? 18:29:52 purge: Oh blast, my mistake, updated the wrong one. 18:33:30 hehe 18:33:38 ok np i haven't DL'd anything yet 18:37:28 Okay 18:37:34 purge: New tiles version *is* up now. 18:37:55 "You feel sick. x4" <3 18:38:00 <3 18:38:21 ok trying..... 18:38:24 03due * ra2cad0f2939a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (output.cc player.cc): Change "xyz resistant to magic" to "resistant to hostile enchantments". 18:38:42 :D 18:38:52 Should probbably change it for monsters as well, come to think o fit. 18:39:28 yay works 18:39:31 Oh, it works? 18:39:32 -!- nrook has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:36 due: the new plantey Lair generator makes autoexplore really suck. The damn thing can't deal with plants in a corner, it claims it can't reach places when merely walking close and taking a look would explore it fully. 18:39:37 That's weird, I wonder what fixed it. 18:39:58 fix auto-explore! 18:40:20 kilobyte: that's a quite longstanding issue 18:40:32 it's been the case for as long as i can remember, anyway 18:40:52 the autoexplore code doesn't take los into account 18:41:06 just tries to step everywhere, not look everywhere 18:41:25 there's also a number of plants tucked in places where you need to destroy them to learn there's nothing behind then 18:42:04 or you could just get the "i can't autoexplore anymore" message, look at the level map to make sure there's nothing obvious missing, and continue on 18:42:21 there's one or two plants like that explicitly placed in hive:2, for what it's worth 18:43:00 doy: not anymore, I fixed them 18:43:02 .xX 18:43:02 xPx 18:43:02 Xxx 18:43:06 ah(: 18:44:05 in this case, you can't see X is a wall without killing the plant, and here autoexplore is correct 18:44:05 Do you think we need to look at unique placement again? 18:44:25 naaah, it's ok. 18:44:27 kilobyte: yes 18:44:28 dpeg suggested that we could pick all the uniques at the start of the game, like we currently do with the temple. 18:44:33 It would prevent clumping in that regard. 18:44:46 The previous code made clumps impossible, the current one is fair instead. 18:44:51 Okay. 18:44:56 I think clumps are okay. 18:45:05 And i thin kthe main reason people complain about them so much is because they only ever notice the clumps. 18:45:09 right 18:45:18 Which are still quite, quite rare. 18:46:51 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 18:47:12 exactly 18:47:33 ??git 18:47:34 git[1/1]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref 18:50:44 I definitely want to put randart rods on the 0.7 todo. 18:50:57 doy: What's the roadmap wiki page? 18:51:14 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:testing_and_polish_needed_for_0.6_release 18:51:32 feel free to take that 'postponed' section and start a page for 0.7 18:52:03 thanks, I was trynig to findit under 'roadmap'on the wiki :) 18:52:33 Okay, giant spores should go on *, right? 18:52:48 i think ero was the only one against that 18:52:56 Stuff ero 18:53:02 (: 18:53:09 He just wants insubstantials on * so he can have dwarves on v :) 18:53:15 And neither of those are happening before 0.7 so 18:53:24 hehe 18:54:19 -!- Eifel has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:44 dire flails: 2-handed, 13 damage, very rare. Great maces have 17 damage and occur on 43 monsters, starting with ogres and orc warriors. 18:55:49 what would you change them to? 18:55:53 pretty sure there's a proposal to make dire flails 1.5 handed 18:56:15 doy, what's the command for init submodule after a fresh git? 18:56:46 git submodule update --init 18:57:05 due, thanks 18:58:02 heh, there's 9476967297 maces, and not a single 1.5 handed one 18:58:15 yeah, was just looking at that 18:58:43 might make eveningstar 1.5 handed too, while you're at it 18:59:01 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 18:59:29 Do giant spores turn neutral for Jiyvaites/ 18:59:53 Question: 1.5 handed? 19:00:05 due: they shouldn't 19:00:06 ??hand and half 19:00:06 I don't have a page labeled hand_and_half in my learndb. 19:00:16 doy: No, they shouldn't, should they? They turn neutral for Fedhas instead. 19:00:24 I think that in itself is enough indicator as to why they shouldn't show up in Slime. 19:00:25 yes 19:00:40 I'm asking how you can have 1.5 hands. 19:00:54 Madtrixr: It's a weapon that requires one and a half hands to wield. 19:00:56 ??hand and a half 19:00:56 more effectively with two[1/2]: Hand-and-a-half weapons (those marked "It can be used with one hand, or more effectively with two (i.e. when not using a shield).", when wielded without a shield, do more damage and have a slightly shorter delay. 19:01:09 There we go. 19:01:09 Ah, missed the 'a'. 19:01:30 Spriggans and other small races require two hands to wield them, and they are the largest weapons wieldable by Sprigs. 19:01:39 I'm for dire flails being 1.5-handed. 19:01:50 Spriggans and other small races are penalised drmatically if they ever want to go maces. 19:01:53 It's like versitile weapons in 4e: Are one handed, but can be used with two, and are stronger. 19:01:53 (although they aren't 1-handed for ogres and trolls, and i'm not sure why) 19:02:01 doy: Disparity is confusion. 19:02:08 LOVE IS WAR 19:02:18 * due inserts 1984 slogans here. 19:02:21 grrr! whoever has been using Cryptic moved -_- 19:02:48 well, not moved...but they logged off and someone else logged in (or else they're running a system in IL and another in FL) 19:03:03 Did you register the nick? 19:03:12 maybe you should pick a more creative name 19:03:14 just sayin 19:03:15 (: 19:03:40 :D 19:04:28 lol, I've used Cryptic for YEARS, I just never have gotten it on freenode. 19:04:37 I refuse to give it up. It will be MINE! 19:04:42 Giant spores as * is *nice*. 19:04:51 Cryp71c: You won't get it, someone has registered t. 19:05:01 I was about to say, 19:05:20 You have lost it Cryptic. sorry. 19:05:21 due, they havn't been on in over 60 days. Its mine as long as I can /nick and go ask in #freenode for its previous owner to be dropped. 19:05:28 I've already checked ;) 19:06:30 Ahh. 19:06:52 But the problem is that everytime I'm available to /nick to it, someone else already has. 19:07:06 Hehehe. 19:07:21 Bah 19:07:34 So, the ME_SCARE fear event only applies to scrolls of fear, and not at all to monsters fleeing. 19:07:37 RARGH. 19:08:05 try it now 19:08:54 ... try what now? 19:09:20 Talking to cryptic 19:09:29 srry. 19:09:43 * Madtrixr lets the devs get back to work 19:09:48 Oh. 19:09:53 I thought you'd changed the flee mechanics. 19:09:56 I was goin gto kiss you. ;) 19:09:58 :D 19:10:08 If I could help, I would. 19:17:05 These are just a few of my hated things! enum.h 19:17:07 doy: my guess is that the ghost code weirds out when undead ghosts are made 19:17:20 what? 19:17:29 hm 19:17:36 is this for Mara's summoned ghosts? 19:18:16 11:11 <+doy> sorear: any idea why ugly things have NOZOMBIE? 19:18:31 oh 19:19:33 oh right, ugly things use the ghost code for some reason that i don't understand 19:19:37 incorrect mimic descriptions (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=579) by doy 19:20:45 doy: it's the only way for a single monster type to have more than one kind of attack 19:20:50 freezing, flaming, etc 19:20:56 ah 19:24:53 Heh, you can kite hydras with a spriggan and a fast weapon. 19:25:39 So, we're looking pretty spiffy for glyph changes. 19:26:04 The only remaining aunknown are elementals and ice beasts. 19:27:30 Hey cool 19:27:35 converting to jiyva causes a segfault 19:27:48 -!- B0RG1N has joined ##crawl-dev 19:27:56 ASSERT(load_mode != LOAD_VISITOR) in 'files.cc' at line 1356 failed. 19:28:14 Abandoning Fedhas seems to cause this issue. 19:29:27 Why the hell would it be running that code 19:29:41 Sounds like a corrupted save 19:30:44 -!- B0RG1N has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:49 Is it against the coding convention to comment what every function does above it? 19:32:57 No 19:33:04 Only do it if it's unclear thouggh 19:33:12 a lot of the previous "this function is used in xyz" are old, old comments 19:33:15 that should probably go 19:34:36 hrm, ok. 19:37:50 03due * rc6d3b5741152 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Don't special-case Mara with resistance messages. 19:37:52 03due * r6357d55b577f 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Bring monster MR wording in line with player's. 19:37:54 03due * raa890a5f1945 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-pick.cc): Move giant spores to '*', don't spawn them in Slime. 19:37:55 03due * r563243285feb 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc describe.cc enum.h religion.cc): Replace Jiyva's jelly shield with jelly paralyse. (N78291) 19:38:00 Hooray 19:38:25 jelly paralyze? 19:38:28 Quick, hide Eronarn! 19:38:37 minced: You can pray to stop jellies moving. 19:39:38 So 19:39:41 Haven't played Jiyva much - will jellies actually follow you, or do they just become neutral? If the former, then jelly paralyze would be pretty nice. 19:39:46 We have Rakshasas on R, efreet on E and ice beast on I. 19:39:47 @??ice beast 19:39:47 ice beast (16I) | Speed: 10 (swim: 110%) | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 512(cold) | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(20), 12cold+++, 03poison, asphyx | Vul: 04fire | XP: 121. 19:39:51 minced: neutral. 19:40:07 And elementals on # and { 19:40:13 I would so love to get the elementals off # and {. 19:40:15 yes 19:40:18 @??earth elemental 19:40:18 earth elemental (07#) | Speed: 6 | HD: 6 | Health: 30-60 | AC/EV: 14/4 | Damage: 40 | Flags: 11non-living | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++ | XP: 84. 19:40:37 Hm, we can't really move the rest of the elementals to 'v', as they're not insubstantial. 19:40:41 @??waater elemental 19:40:41 unknown monster: "waater elemental" 19:40:41 @??water elemental 19:40:42 water elemental (12{) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 30-48 | AC/EV: 0/7 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 11non-living, amphibious, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 10elec++, 03poison | Vul: 04fire | XP: 172. 19:40:49 Though they're all non-living. 19:40:56 efreet -> R, elementals -> E 19:41:03 doy: Yeah. 19:41:12 I still don't like E, though. 19:41:25 And we need to do something about ice beasts. 19:41:29 @??azrael 19:41:29 Azrael (04E) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 88 | AC/EV: 10/5 | Damage: 12 | Flags: 05demonic, lev | Res: 06magic(44), 04fire+++, 03poison | Vul: 12cold | XP: 1588 | Sp: b.fire, sticky flame, fireball, hellfire, hellfire burst. 19:41:40 yeah, no idea about ice beasts 19:41:41 @??mara 19:41:42 Mara (04R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(213), 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 7532 | Sp: mislead, mara summon, b.lightning, player ghost, pain, teleport self. 19:41:47 they're less urgent than elementals though, i think 19:41:48 Bah, there'd be a colou clash with Mara and azrael. 19:42:09 It's really just elementals that are urgent. 19:42:14 yes 19:42:20 Is it that really important for Mara to be red? 19:42:23 minced: Yes. 19:42:30 Q, q, i... 19:42:53 hmmm, did anything used to be on i? 19:42:57 No, nothing. 19:43:04 wonder why 19:43:12 Elementals would be nice on 'i' forr the time being. 19:43:19 But there's no rationale for it. 19:44:00 yeah, that could work for now 19:44:48 and just leave R/E/I as they are for now 19:46:24 -!- Anym has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 19:47:07 Okay. 19:47:09 Let's do that. 19:47:15 That fixes most of my issues with everything else. 19:47:30 What sort of rational can we apply to 'i' besides "it's not being used and it's small and it didnt' require shifting anything"? 19:47:35 yeah, elementals and giant spores were the ones i actually cared about 19:47:57 # for monsters is just so bad though. 19:48:02 yes 19:49:00 Should I make fire elementals ETC_FIRE instead now? 19:49:08 hmmm 19:49:34 why not 19:49:44 can revert that bit later if people don't like it 19:49:58 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [] 19:50:13 I thin k we could make eart helementals yellow as well 19:50:35 Is "You lose piety" an appropriate message? 19:50:51 So it just leaves rakshasa, efreets and ice beasts on their own. 19:50:57 Which are fine for now, but should really channge. 19:51:06 could make ice beasts demonic too 19:51:10 Yeah 19:51:12 and merge all three 19:51:16 that would be interesting 19:51:23 But that can be for 0.7 19:51:26 yes 19:51:33 demonic ice beasts? 19:51:37 preposterous 19:51:39 ice form would be weird if it turned you into a demon 19:51:43 lightblue i is nice 19:51:49 MarvinPA: True. 19:51:55 I suppose that wouldn't work. 19:51:55 ofc if that means rN+++ for ice form go for it 19:52:01 :P 19:52:11 well, i don't think that ice form is explicitly "turns you into an ice beast", is it? 19:52:23 no, it doesn't 19:52:25 you get the ice beast tile! 19:52:25 it just uses the same glyph 19:52:26 i think 19:52:45 and imitates ice form as closely as it can without actually using af cold 19:53:02 (it should definitely use af cold) 19:53:24 TGWi: AF_COLD is something specifically for monsters. 19:53:41 I'm aware 19:54:02 @??ice beast 19:54:02 ice beast (16I) | Speed: 10 (swim: 110%) | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 512(cold) | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(20), 12cold+++, 03poison, asphyx | Vul: 04fire | XP: 121. 19:54:04 ??ice form 19:54:05 ice form[1/1]: +20% hp, no weapons or armour save cloaks, -fire, +++cold, +pois, +5-12 AC (and additional bonus from synergy with {ozocubu's armour} ), +10,+9 slaying w/ freezing brand. 19:55:10 same AC, same resistances, same glyph, apparently same tile, probably makes you the same shape (cloaks only)... 19:55:34 doy: termcasting, tune in? 19:55:54 I'm kinda happy with this. 19:56:25 yeah, looks good to me 19:56:39 The only thing I'm unsure about is yellow for earth elemental, but I like the ligh colours. 19:56:45 @??water elemental 19:56:46 water elemental (12{) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 30-48 | AC/EV: 0/7 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 11non-living, amphibious, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 10elec++, 03poison | Vul: 04fire | XP: 172. 19:57:06 Cryp71c: You should be able to hit escape to clear (permanantly) all more prompts. 19:57:21 It just spits everything out until it's done, instead of prompting you every time the screen fills up. 19:57:35 They shouldn't be fire vulnerable. 19:58:57 Though I suppose it evaporates them. 19:59:13 does it shoot steam at you? 19:59:14 It causes issues with spriggan monsters, but that's fine. 19:59:18 it should 19:59:42 We need more water-based attacks. 20:00:14 that sounds extremely problematic 20:00:19 Why does? 20:00:28 water resistance doesn't exist 20:00:31 water magic doesn't exist 20:00:34 Yes, I know. 20:00:43 03pointless_ * r5d2c165443a6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc enum.h godabil.cc godabil.h): Experimentally switch evolution to a single target ranged ability 20:00:48 Hellfire resistance doesn't exist for monsters. 20:01:24 also, "water damage" sounds like either asphyx or physical 20:01:32 Yes, physical. 20:01:57 well, or shoddy workmanship 20:02:05 Er. 20:02:14 Hellfire resistance doesn't exist for players. 20:02:17 It does for monsters. 20:02:25 Neither does earth resistance. 20:02:31 Or air resiistance (airstrike). 20:03:06 @??water elemental 20:03:06 water elemental (12{) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 30-48 | AC/EV: 0/7 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 11non-living, amphibious, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 10elec++, 03poison | Vul: 04fire | XP: 172. 20:03:07 well, that's explicit for earth, at least 20:06:25 due+++++++++++++++ finally fixing MR 20:07:16 sorear: TGW suggested it :) 20:07:19 http://sprunge.us/PXji 20:07:26 doy: comments on my commit message? 20:07:40 !learn add tgw (9:07:11 PM) due: sorear: TGW suggested it :) 20:07:40 tgw[5/5]: (9:07:11 PM) due: sorear: TGW suggested it :) 20:07:49 You're so egotistical ;) 20:09:01 that parenthetical statement at the beginning is confusingly worded/punctuated 20:09:05 sounds fine otherwise 20:09:06 (: 20:10:05 @?vapour 20:10:05 vapour (15#) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 24-60 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Flags: 11non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 11elec+++, 03poison | XP: 1429 | Sp: b.lightning. 20:18:39 @??vapour 20:18:39 vapour (11v) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 24-60 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Flags: 11non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 11elec+++, 03poison | XP: 901 | Sp: b.lightning. 20:18:53 True, it does 20:19:23 I just removed it, it's pointless. 20:20:22 03due * r6cc520966ce7 10/crawl-ref/ (settings/052_monster_glyphs.txt source/mon-data.h): More glyph changes: move elementals to 'i'. 20:28:04 * due goes out. 20:28:33 shouldn't you move them to q? 20:32:44 (because nobody will ever use q)) 20:36:42 this is kind of nonideal 20:37:25 I just filled up my message area, and the last line hit a force more 20:37:51 the force more was pushed onto the next page, and there was a force more to see it :| 20:38:07 a non-forced more, rather 20:45:45 03pointless_ * r25ba124e588e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc godabil.cc godabil.h): Don't give a target prompt in evolution if nothing is in range 20:46:17 why is gastro not vul pois? 20:47:07 I don't think regular slugs are 20:47:07 that would be like making a species of dog with rP 20:47:14 @??elephant slug 20:47:14 elephant slug (15j) | Speed: 4 | HD: 20 | Health: 100-160 | AC/EV: 2/1 | Damage: 40 | Res: 06magic(80) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 903. 20:47:18 oh 20:47:24 -!- Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:48:35 it would also be like making a type of human with rHellfire 20:51:01 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 20:54:31 03dolorous * r767edb42e53d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Fix typo. 20:54:33 03dolorous * rd0c4aed79943 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Add one more Donald complaint. 20:57:32 -!- eith has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:00:08 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:31 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 21:03:13 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:10:05 ENCH_EAT_ITEMS is prevented from doing anything (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=580) by 78291 21:15:43 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 21:17:15 Alrighty, I'm back 21:21:58 03pointless_ * rfb2436798a07 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Tweak friendly wandering mushroom behavior 21:22:09 03pointless_ * r01d90ab200c0 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Update a monsters AI state if evolution is used on it 21:23:07 ugh 21:23:18 I just leveled up without getting a single force_more 21:29:01 -!- kilobyte has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:49 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 21:36:57 -!- minced has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:51:35 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 22:00:13 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:00:46 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:00:52 -!- Cryp71c_ is now known as Crypt71c 22:01:00 -!- Crypt71c is now known as Cryp71c 22:01:06 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:01:24 -!- Cryp71c_ has quit [Client Quit] 22:02:19 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 22:06:19 -!- Timbermaw has quit ["later!"] 22:06:47 -!- nrook has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:57 -!- Iainuki_ has quit [] 22:15:22 Shapechanging inconsistency (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=581) by LordSloth 22:23:17 hiya 22:24:39 nothing uses i 22:43:00 due did you enjoy my splat 22:44:01 Yes <3 22:50:46 It was terribly awesome. 22:59:08 * due cuddles st_. 22:59:48 that DENe had it coming though, three staves of death and two necronomicons by xl15 23:00:18 Nice. 23:00:22 I like how you went around the corner... 23:00:23 and then died! 23:00:57 really wish I didn't shout to draw wayne to me, I think that's what killed me 23:01:04 Hah, yeah. 23:01:11 The lightning bolt bounce didn't help. 23:06:08 -!- Cryp71c has quit [] 23:10:56 // My kingdom for a closure. 23:10:59 I love source code comments. 23:13:01 I need to write the alphabet stone soup post. 23:13:25 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 23:13:30 -!- Cryp71c has left ##crawl-dev 23:17:36 hooray for hitting describe.h 23:33:53 -!- mincedd has joined ##crawl-dev 23:36:57 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 23:41:41 Fedhas or nemelex (DEHu) 23:41:48 Fedhas 23:46:49 the Options global should probably be defined outside of options.h 23:46:54 -!- mincedd has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:47:00 that woul dmean not having to include options.h for every file that you want too look up options for 23:47:05 and thus not have to recompile everything