00:00 <@dpeg> doy = acclaimed git guru :)
00:00 <+haranp> git pull works now
00:00 <+haranp> so I can git push?
00:00 <+greensnark> Yes!
00:00 < CIA-81> haranp direction-rewrite * r553c0cd8d1dc /crawl-ref/source/ (15 files): Many more changes to direction().
00:00 < CIA-81> haranp direction-rewrite * rd9662cfaa691 /crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Really add the better ally-attack message.
00:00 <+doy> haranp: how did you create that local branch, by the way?
00:00 <+greensnark> Where are the existing tree colours assigned :P
00:00 < CIA-81> haranp direction-rewrite * rcac99abb0f76 /crawl-ref/source/ (327 files in 23 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into direction-rewrite
00:00 < CIA-81> haranp direction-rewrite * rdd7057404754 /crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Merge branch 'direction-rewrite' of ssh://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref into direction-rewrite
00:00 <+haranp> git checkout -b direction-rewrite
00:01 <+kilobyte> I have a habit of always specifying the branch to pull from (git pull sf direction-rewrite), it's more typing but safer if you have 369860948603 checkouts on 45689 machines
00:01 <+doy> haranp: in the future, do 'git checkout -b direction-rewrite origin/direction-rewrite'
00:01 <+doy> and it'll set all that up for you
00:01 <+haranp> will add to my cheat sheet
00:01 <+haranp> thanks
00:01 <+haranp> dpeg: take a look at the latest push
00:01 <+kilobyte> doy: in newest git it looks like you can 'git checkout direction-rewrite' and it will do that for you
00:01 <+haranp> there are still a few things missing...
00:01 <+doy> kilobyte: ah, cool
00:01 <+greensnark> kilobyte: That's awesome
00:02 <+haranp> for example prompts for clouds are a bit silly
00:02 <+kilobyte> (or complain if multiple remotes have that branch, of course)
00:02 <+greensnark> I always have trouble explaining that to people new to git
00:02 <+haranp> you can now control the F line properly
00:02 <+haranp> so changes to that should be easy
00:02 <@dpeg> haranp: will do in a moment
00:02 <+kilobyte> greensnark: trees in general: 25% light green, 75% dark green.  Trees in Swamp: 25% brown, 75% dark green.
00:02 <+haranp> oh, and check out Apportation :)
00:02 <+greensnark> kilobyte: Sounds good
00:03 <+kilobyte> greensnark: it uses a hash, show.cc:_tree_colour()
00:04 <+greensnark> Ahh, interesting
00:05 <+kilobyte> Shoals can probably keep standard trees, or perhaps even use more bright ones.
00:05 <+doy> palm trees!
00:05 <+greensnark> Shoals doesn't use trees currently, just plants
00:06 <+greensnark> For some reason I typed GREEN : BREEN and couldn't make out why the compiler was complaining
00:06 <+due> hiya
00:06 < Henzell> due: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them.
00:07 <+greensnark> Morning due
00:07 <+due> I want to keep palm trees for th epotential dessert branch
00:07 <+due> If  this is okay
00:07 <@dpeg> due: it is
00:07 <+due> dpeg: The new vaults code won't be ready for 0.6, I don't think
00:07 <+due> I mean, it *works*
00:07 <+greensnark> I'm not entirely sure about the green/brown thing :/
00:07 <+due> But I still have to write all the subvaults and deal with the monster generation and stuff.
00:08  * greensnark tries green/cyan :P
00:08 <+greensnark> Eek, that's dreadful :P
00:08 <+due> I am also still dizzy, don't mind if I'm slightly insane.
00:08  * greensnark hands due a tequila shot.
00:08 <+greensnark> That should help with the dizziness.
00:09 <+due> hooray
00:09 <+due> I'm actually going to the doctor shortly.
00:09 <+kilobyte> due: we mind, being merely slightly insane means you're not qualified for Crawl development
00:09 <+greensnark> Oh, sick :/
00:09 <@dpeg> greensnark: what about only darkgreenß
00:09 <+due> kilobyte: bugger
00:09 <+greensnark> dpeg: That looks a little boring :)
00:09 <@dpeg> darkgreen / grey?
00:09 <+due> HAAHAH
00:10 <+due> What are we talking about now?
00:10 <@dpeg> colour of trees in Swamp
00:10 <+greensnark> Tree colors for Swamp
00:10 <+due> Ah
00:10 <+due> Whats wrong with what we've got at the minute?
00:10 <+greensnark> darkgreen/darkgrey may work, but plain lightgrey does not
00:10 <+greensnark> Yeah, at this point I'm inclined to leave it as is :)
00:11 <+greensnark> green /lightgreen is a bit too cheerful for Swamp
00:11 <+greensnark> But it looks beter than the other stuf I tried
00:11 <+due> Lightgreen is too cheerful
00:11 <+due> But
00:11 <+due> Speaking from experienc
00:11 <+due> Other colours are horrible.
00:11 <+greensnark> Yes
00:11 <+due> I tried brown/yellow in the Wucad Mu wizlab and blech.
00:11 <+greensnark> Unless I change my terminal's notion of brown :P
00:12 <+due> Please don't, because mine is still ugly..
00:12 <+due> What does green and darkgrey look like?
00:12 <+greensnark> Yeah, I think trees look fine
00:12 < Kyrris> Probably all swampy and decaying.
00:12 < Kyrris> due.
00:12 <+greensnark> Green and darkgrey look weird, but less weird than the other stuff I tried
00:12 <+haranp> okay, night
00:12 <+greensnark> But green and lightgreen work better anyway
00:12 <+due> I'm inclinded to stick with green and lightngreen then.
00:13 <+due> Simply because it's a brand new feature typee
00:13 <+haranp> dpeg, if you have more suggestions, just let me know :)
00:13 <+haranp> and someone needs to work out the interface for tiles
00:13 <+due> And perhaps changing the colours of it in random branches might confuse new people.
00:13 -!- haranp [n=haranp@di8-37132.dialin.huji.ac.il] has quit ["leaving"]
00:13 <+greensnark> Does tiles have a different fire interface?
00:13 <+greensnark> I thought it was the same prompts and everything
00:13 <+greensnark> Just with added mouseness
00:13 <@dpeg> greensnark: tiles *should* have a different interface: they can use the mouse
00:14 <+greensnark> Yes, but the basic interface is unchanged
00:14 <+greensnark> i.e. if you're an ASCII player, you can still use all your old shortcuts, etc.
00:14 <+due> dpeg: giving cigotuvi's monster a mutagenic attack is a brilliant idea, but would require defining him as an actual monste.r
00:14 <@dpeg> yes
00:14 <@dpeg> due: yeah
00:15 <+greensnark> due: Do it, no worries :)
00:15 <+due> which I think is probably okay.
00:15 <+due> Unless greensnark is finished with the monster->Lua rewrite ;)
00:15 <+greensnark> :/
00:15 <+greensnark> Don't remind me of that bit-rotting pile of code :P
00:16 <+greensnark> It needs at least 3-4 days of focussed effort 
00:16 <+due> :)
00:16 <+greensnark> And focussed effort involving mon-gear.cc
00:16 <+due> It's fine. I was teasing! <3
00:16 <+greensnark> Also known as the Black Pit, Moria.
00:17 <+due> What was wrong with mon-gear?
00:17 <+due> I mean, I know it was bad
00:17 <+greensnark> Giant switch blocks assigning items
00:18 <+due> Yeah.
00:18 <+greensnark> I'd have to write a parser to translate that :P
00:18 <+due> giant switch blockss of doom.
00:18 <+greensnark> And there are lots of tedious little special cases to trip up an automated converter
00:18 <+greensnark> So I'd need to write test scripts to compare before and after equipment :P
00:18 <+greensnark> "Later!" :P
00:18 <+due> Hehehehe.
00:18 <+due> Or you could just get someone weird and obsessed like me to do it by hand?
00:19 < Kyrris> I love the forest temple!  It's beautiful!
00:19 <+greensnark> I'd have to do a fair few by hand to nail down the APIs to use
00:19 <+greensnark> I still haven't even scoped out the land in mon-gear :)
00:20 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-171-7.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:20 <@dpeg> greensnark: who wrote this mass? And made sure it worked?
00:20 -!- Kyrris [n=1@c-67-186-34-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit []
00:21 <+greensnark> It's like a coral reef :P
00:21 <@dpeg> *mess
00:21 <+greensnark> Gradually built up :)
00:21 < TGWi> ??octopus king
00:21 < Henzell> octopus king[1/1]: +10,+4 trident of the Octopus King {venom, rElec rPois MR}
00:21 <+due> mon-gear is just... disgusting.
00:22 <+due> But it's probably one of the sanest and most efficient ways of doing it in C++, no?
00:22 <+due> So wait, are trees brown in Swamp, now?
00:22 <+greensnark> No
00:22 <@dpeg> 1/4 of them
00:23 <+greensnark> Oh, someone made the change?
00:23 < TGWi> @??tentacle
00:23 < Gretell> tentacle (w) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-60 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 29 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(immune), asphyx | XP: 0.
00:23 <+due> Yeah.
00:23  * due glares at kilobyte.
00:23 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, Adam did
00:23 <+greensnark> Oh
00:23 <+greensnark> Yeah, I suggested it, but I hadn't tried it
00:23 <+due> Hm.
00:23 <+due> I'll have a look and see what it's like.
00:23 <@dpeg> kilobyte's code looks even blacker than than the usual black magic to me :)
00:23 <+due> But I don't think we should be so quick to start recolouring new features for Branches...
00:24 <+greensnark> It's a neat little hash to distribute the different colours randomly, using just the position to decide the colour
00:24 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-171-226.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
00:24 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-170-190.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:24 <+due> I suppose Brown would be kay, though.
00:25 <+greensnark> I thought brown was fine, but it's worse than lightgreen :/
00:25 <+due> Is it? :/
00:25 <+due> Will do comparative screenshots, perhaps.
00:25 <+greensnark> It works better in real life :P
00:26 <+greensnark> Trees with brown trunks and green leaves vs trees with brown trunks and brown leaves!
00:26 <+due> We need a greenbrown colour.
00:26 <+due> Make it so!
00:26 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, I noted the bit about using position, like that a lot. But the h^ etc.... I won't comprehend :)
00:26 <+greensnark> bit twiddling :P
00:27 <+due> I will do screenshots.
00:27 <+greensnark> dpeg: Did you see the change to the Lernaean hydra :P
00:27 <+due> Once the full compile is done.
00:27 <+greensnark> It is hilarious :P
00:27 <+due> I KNOW
00:27 <+greensnark> I can't wait for someone to try hiding behind a tree again :D
00:27 <+due> dpeg: someone stood behind trees and the Lenaean hydra just chilled on the other side while they channelled to death.
00:27 <+due> It was disgusting :(
00:28 <@dpeg> greensnark: <3
00:28 <+due> Also, dpeg, what do you think about actually creating an unrand Entarex and making Maud's behaviour change if you have it?
00:28 <@dpeg> not sure :)
00:28 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-171-7.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
00:28 <@dpeg> if you come up with a cool randart...
00:28 < ogaz> !lm * uniq=the lernaean hydra
00:28 < Henzell> No milestones for * (uniq=the lernaean hydra).
00:28 <+due> :D
00:29 < ogaz> !lm * uniq=lernaean hydra
00:29 < Henzell> No milestones for * (uniq=lernaean hydra).
00:29 <+due> ogaz: uniq=~lern
00:29 <@dpeg> "An ancient sword, looking for Maud."
00:29 <+due> dpeg: Yesssss, exactly.
00:29 < ogaz> !lm * uniq=~lern
00:29 <@dpeg> Attacks anyone who is not Maud :)
00:29 <+due> dpeg: I was thinking more that it was a person who was magiically transformed into a sword.
00:29 <+greensnark> dpeg: No!
00:29 <+due> Oooh, it could be a dancing weapon.
00:29 <+greensnark> It recites love poems to its wielder, assuming they are Maud
00:29 <+due> greensnark: <3
00:29 <+due> Custom noisy sword, ++.
00:30 <@dpeg> but then we lose jpeg as a coder, she'd spend the rest of her time writing Entarex love poems
00:30 <+due> Why is this an issue/
00:30 <+greensnark> It also explains why Maud is so keen to get Entarex back :P
00:30 <+due> Okay, I will do this.
00:30 <@dpeg> now???
00:30 <+kilobyte> well, who's guilty of the Singing Sword?
00:30 <+due> Unrand with custom speech.
00:30 <+due> No!
00:30 <@dpeg> I mean, right now?
00:31 <+due> No, not right now.
00:31 <@dpeg> kilobyte: hey, jpeg and I added a ton of speech for the singing sword!
00:31 <+due> Did you see I committed the item lib changes!
00:31 <+kilobyte> greensnark: to keep the dirty secret hidden?
00:31 <+due> Metatables!
00:31 < Henzell> 1. [2010-01-24] moq the Destroyer (L16 MuWz) killed the 27-headed Lernaean hydra on turn 75326. (Swamp:5)
00:31 <@dpeg> due: yes!
00:31 <+due> Oh, dpeg.
00:31  * greensnark is off, back later.;.
00:31 <+due> dpeg, harpies. :/
00:31 < ogaz> !lm * uniq=~lern -tv
00:31 < Henzell> 1. moq, XL16 MuWz, T:75326 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
00:31 <+due> greensnark: Ciao!
00:31 <@dpeg> due: not working?
00:31 <+kilobyte> dpeg: the speech and idea rocks, the sword sucks bigtime
00:31 <@dpeg> kilobyte: do you want to remove it or improve itß
00:31 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I agree.
00:32 <+due> dpeg: Well, they're slightly grindy. On my SpBe, I decided to leave my food outside of the branch so that it wouldn't get stolen, because losing my food was such a massive, massive issue.
00:32 < ogaz> why was moq using a staff of energy on a mummy :/
00:32 <+due> Which means that you have to leave the branch whenever you want to eat.
00:32 <@dpeg> due: hm, what to do?
00:32 <@dpeg> due: which is a food problem in itself?!
00:32 <+due> dpeg: Well, SpBe is aways a food problem, but usually I can manage that.
00:32 <+due> I just have to take into consideration that a monster steals my food.
00:33 <+due> I know there's been a lot of work on the food theft mechanism, but what about just giving them a hungering attack, like hungry ghosts? I'm unsure.
00:33 <@dpeg> due: perhaps harpies are more interesting for characters with chunks?
00:33 <+doy> !lg * killer=~lern
00:33 <+due> Oh, it's interesting.
00:33 < Henzell> No games for * (killer=~lern).
00:33 <@dpeg> kilobyte: if you have a cool idea to help the singing sword, say it!
00:33 <+due> doy: None yet :(
00:33 <+due> The Singing Sword should randomly animate itself and kill monsters.
00:34 <+doy> @??lernaean hydra
00:34 < Gretell> the Lernaean hydra (D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(120), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 7599.
00:34 < ogaz> at the very least, it needs a buff; a +7 unbranded long sword is pretty bad
00:34 <+due> Agree.
00:34 <@dpeg> would be nice if whatever is it the sword gets, it'd fit with the singing
00:34 <+due> dpeg: So yeah, I just don't know; the harpies themselves are already really interesting, I just found the food theft infuriating annoying rather than fun annoying, but easily dealt with
00:34 < nrook> I've used the singing sword through midgame repeatedly, not everything needs to be really strong
00:35 <@dpeg> nrook: but unbranded is not so hot
00:35 <@dpeg> if you wield the singing sword, 't' should not "shout" but "sing" :)
00:35 <+due> :D
00:35 <@dpeg> 'tt'
00:36 <+kilobyte> most brands would be unfitting for it
00:36 <@dpeg> and make the sword perform better
00:36 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes
00:36 <+kilobyte> perhaps just increase the enchantment to +46934769386?
00:36 <+due> "singing brand"
00:36 <+due> Does extra damage against silent monsters
00:36 <@dpeg> hm, what about singing does animate it?
00:36 < nrook> the singing sword could be a scimitar
00:36 <+kilobyte> what if you cast Silence?
00:36 <+due> kilobyte: You are prevented from it.
00:36 <@dpeg> it dies?
00:36 < ogaz> the singing sword scowls horribly at you
00:36 <+due> nrook: That is an idea.
00:37 <+due> Actually, brown is okay for the Swamp's trees.
00:38 <+due> dpeg: But yeah, otherwise, I love Shoals.
00:38 <+due> dpeg: But losing rations on an early Spriggan will most likely make people do the same thing as me (leave food behind at the door).
00:38 <@dpeg> due: yes, Shoals and Slime are the most round branches right now, imo
00:39 <+due> Swamp isn't bad, actually.
00:39 <+due> and Lair is really visually interesting now.
00:39 <+due> Especially now that the water attack bonus is gone, Swamp is less grindy.
00:39 <+due> Bah
00:40 <+due> Oh
00:41 <+due> dpeg: Do you want damaging Slime walls in Slime? We can do this quickly and easily for 0.6.
00:41 <+due> Also, are we going to branch 0.6 soon?
00:41 <@dpeg> so yes, all of Lair is cooler now
00:41 <@dpeg> due: hm, I would like that, yes
00:41 <@dpeg> due: do you know if we increased death ooze generation in Slime?
00:41 <@dpeg> they are a tad too rare
00:41 <+due> I haven't seen any changes to it recently, but that can get turned up.
00:41 <+due> What sort of damage do we want from the walls?
00:41 <+doy> i thought we did
00:41 <+doy> at some point
00:41 <+due> Proximity damage only, or acid-flavour damage?
00:42 <+doy> but might have just been a fr or something
00:42 <+due> doy: Not since I started writing the play-testing posts.
00:42 <@dpeg> due: no, it would've been older
00:42 <@dpeg> but I cannot remember
00:42 <@dpeg> well, thematically, slime wall damage should be acidic, but I don't want rAcid to prevent it -- what to do?
00:42 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2689-gc7db6ed (16.2)!
00:42 <+doy> dpeg: why not?
00:43 <+due> rCorr should prevent it, otherwise it'll be infuriating.
00:43 <@dpeg> doy: the slime walls should do damage in order to prevent the "dig tunnel" scum against the royal jelly!
00:43 <@dpeg> it is a gameplay nerf, hidden as a flavour bit :)
00:43 <+due> Well, sure
00:43 <+due> But unresistable acid damage is bad.
00:44 <+due> Especially when you already have to dig tunnels to get to the different bubbles.
00:44 <+doy> dpeg: the damage should stack for each adjacent acid wall tile
00:44 <@dpeg> okay, each adjacent wall of slime does 1d4 acidic damage, halved if rCorrß
00:44 <+doy> something like that would be fine
00:44 <+due> I think that's good.
00:44 <@dpeg> well, the player would dig something like this:
00:44 <@dpeg> xxxxxxxxxxxxxx...
00:44 <@dpeg> .............@...
00:44 <@dpeg> xxxxxxxxxxxxxx...
00:45 <@dpeg> to minimise wall damage
00:45 <@dpeg> but still, better than nothing
00:45 <@dpeg> also, can the RJ spawn jellies behind the @?
00:45 <+doy> really, royal jelly spawns shouldn't be required to be so close to it, if there's no room for them
00:46 <+doy> being able to limit the spawns by having the royal jelly in an enclosed area like that is a decent part of the issue
00:46 <@dpeg> a completely different solution would be that the RJ spawns can spawn right inside wall, jelly and all
00:47 <@dpeg> yes
00:47 <@dpeg> see ^
00:47 < henryci> Is there an easy way to generate altars using wiz mode?
00:48 <+due> henryci: &_<god>
00:48 -!- eith_ [n=eith@86-41-101-70-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:48 <@dpeg> We should branch really soon. But before that, we should make a list of what's to be done for 0.6.
00:49 < henryci> how about creating an inaccessible altar?
00:49 <+due> henryci: Best bet woul dbe to force-place using &L the inaccessible altar vault.
00:50 <@dpeg> henryci: you can also add PLACE: D:1 to some altar vaults
00:50 <@dpeg> due: what do you thikn about the aggressive RJ spawns?
00:51 < henryci> where does &L gets its map names from?
00:53 <@dpeg> ah, it may not work
00:53 <+due> dpeg: They can kill anyone very quickly.
00:53 <@dpeg> does it?
00:53 <+due> Yes
00:53 <+due> henryci: the name: string on the vault in question
00:53 <+doy> !lg * place=slime:6 killer!=the royal jelly
00:53 < Henzell> 116. minced the Warrior (L18 SETm), worshipper of Makhleb, splashed by acid on Slime:6 on 2010-01-16, with 182128 points after 50316 turns and 4:28:27.
00:53 <@dpeg> due: well, but we all kill the RJ honestly in the open, noß
00:53 <+due> dpeg: I've never tried killing RJ in the open. :)
00:53 <@dpeg> henryci: part of the string is enough, although the prompt should really mention this
00:53 <@dpeg> boo! :)
00:53 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-102-58-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
00:54 <+doy> !lg * place=slime:6 killer!=the royal jelly s=killer
00:54 < Henzell> 116 games for * (place=slime:6 killer!=the royal jelly): 38x an acid blob, 35x a royal jelly, 16x , 15x an azure jelly, 8x a death ooze, 2x a great orb of eyes, 1x an orc warrior, 1x a very large slime creature
00:54 <+doy> !lg * place=slime:6 killer!~royal s=killer
00:54 < Henzell> 81 games for * (place=slime:6 killer!~royal): 38x an acid blob, 16x , 15x an azure jelly, 8x a death ooze, 2x a great orb of eyes, 1x a very large slime creature, 1x an orc warrior
00:54 <+kilobyte> dpeg: we got too many new features with badly unstable code to branch right now IMHO, I'd evict new features to side branches for now
00:54 < henryci> Is there an altar vault defined in vaults.des?
00:55 <@dpeg> no
00:55 <+kilobyte> dpeg: since branching right now means either 0.6 or trunk will degreade
00:55 <+due> dat/des/variable/altar.des
00:55 <+due> vaults.des is purely for the vaults branch
00:55 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I think I agree. This is why I want some discussion about what goes into 0.6 before branching.
00:55 <+due> kilobyte: What's wrong with just moving 0.6 to a branch?
00:55 <+due> And not merging features into it?
00:55 < henryci> I see.
00:55 < henryci> awesome thanks.
00:55 <+due> NAME:     general_overflow_altar
00:55 <+due> That's the inaccessible one
00:55 <+kilobyte> due: we'd have to cherry-pick 90% commits
00:56 <+due> kilobyte: So?
00:56 <+due> kilobyte: It'll at least enforce the feature freeze.
00:57 <@dpeg> we can also get feature freeze by discipline!
00:57 <@dpeg> henryci: does it work?
00:57 < henryci> don't have /des/
00:59 <@dpeg> henryci: are you working with a recent trunk?
01:00 < henryci> I thought so.  Let me verify.
01:00 <@dpeg> henryci: if so, you should have the des files, only in a different place than before
01:01 <+doy> i agree with all new features going on branches now, and keeping master for 0.6 things only
01:01 < henryci> last checkin I have is from 1/18
01:02 < henryci> so I asume this is the latest branch.
01:02 < henryci> err
01:02 < henryci> so this is .6
01:02 < henryci> I'm on branch master.
01:03 <@dpeg> henryci: what are your contents of dat/ ? Many des files or a des/ folder?
01:03 < henryci> many des files.
01:03 <@dpeg> that's old :)
01:03 <@dpeg> doesn't matter, the altar vaults you want are in altar.des
01:03 <@dpeg> simply take an unaccessible vault and add PLACE: D:1
01:04 < henryci> git pull brought me up to date
01:04 < henryci> by 'old'
01:04 < henryci> you mean it's like '5 days old'.
01:04 <@dpeg> alternatively, search for "altar" in entry.des and add WEIGHT: 100000 to a vault with an inaccessible altar (there are a few, the one with fire/water in the corner will be easiest)
01:04 <@dpeg> I added the RJ spawn idea to the Slime wiki.
01:05 <@dpeg> And I made a Singing Sword wiki.
01:05 <@dpeg> I don't think either of these should go into 0.6. Simply because it will attract more cognitive load that should be focused on 0.6.
01:05 <+doy> henryci: that's pretty old around here
01:05 <+doy> (:
01:05 <@dpeg> henryci: anc-ient!
01:05 <@dpeg> but that's not a problem for your Ctrl-O changes
01:07 <+doy> what do you think about swapping ^O and &?
01:07 < henryci> ok, now I'v got what I need.
01:07 <+due> I'm back
01:07 < henryci> thanks guys.
01:07 <+doy> so that we have all of our informational pages on %^&
01:08 <+due> dpeg: If we just do proximity damage, I think that's a nerf as it is
01:08 <@dpeg> doy: good idea
01:08 <@dpeg> due: what does proximity damage mean herE?
01:08 <@dpeg> henryci: we thank you!
01:09 <+due> dpeg: Being close to the walls.
01:15 < Timbermaw> guys, i'm getting red messages on tiles: "ch_force_autopickup failed". should i report that on the tracker?
01:15 <+due> No
01:15 <+due> It's fixed :)
01:15 < Timbermaw> hehe alright
01:15 <+due> To fix it localy
01:15 <+due> go into dat/lua/ and edit pickup.lua
01:16 <+due> Oh, no, you can't.
01:16 <+due> Hm.
01:16 < Timbermaw> ??
01:16 < Henzell> [1/2911]: 
01:16 <+due> Bah, will have to update the CDO binaries.
01:16 < Timbermaw> ops lol
01:17 < Timbermaw> no worries i'll wait for the fix
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01:21 <@dpeg> due: yes, it is a nerf. But as I said above, it will attract comments and perhaps a discussion about how this is not the proper nerf, hence the cognitive load.
01:23 <+due> Hm.
01:25 <@dpeg> So, let's add to wikis whatever we have to say and do it for 0.7.
01:25 <@dpeg> Where is Ashenzari, btw?
01:25 <+due> Okay!
01:26 <+due> I'd love the Vaults changes to go in.
01:26 <+due> But currently, the monster load isn't high enough, and I'm not sure how to balance it properly.
01:28 <@dpeg> see it positive: that means we have content for 0.7 right away :)
01:28 <+due> We already have the holy monsters overhaul
01:28 <@dpeg> yes, there is a bit
01:28 <@dpeg> holy monsters, vaults, div god
01:30 <+due> zin overhaul
01:30 <+due> What do you think of the new swamp, btw?
01:31 <@dpeg> haven't seen it
01:31 <+sorear> ds
01:31 <@dpeg> right!
01:32 <+due> :o
01:32 <@dpeg> if we wanted, we could make a mini release right after 0.6 :)
01:32 < nrook> you could call it... 0.6.1
01:32 <+due> well
01:33 <+due> holy monsters couldn't go in that
01:33 <@dpeg> !tell by Is your godconducts refactory in any way related to the idea of tracking more conducts?
01:33 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let by know.
01:33 <+due> 0.6.1 should be for fixups and cleanups.
01:33 <@dpeg> nrook: no, of course not
01:33 <+due> dpeg: No, but we discussed that earlier, or at least ,sorear and I did
01:33 < nrook> or you could just call it 0.7, and merely have 0.7 come out quickly
01:33 <+due> What you want should be pretty easy.
01:33 <+due> !!!!
01:33 <+due> I got one of my tree levels. :D
01:33 <@dpeg> :)
01:34 <+due> dpeg: I changed the pools layout to occasionally place trees, it looks ace :)
01:34 <@dpeg> greensnark asked if the trees in Swamp couldn't be bushes or plants sometimes.
01:34 <@dpeg> due: yes, I read that.
01:34 <@dpeg> Good thinking.
01:34 < nrook> Speaking of something completely unrelated, I think something should be done about mystic blast.
01:34 <+due> Someone else had that idea
01:34 <+due> Not sure who
01:34 <+due> nrook: What's wrong with it?
01:34 < nrook> (I've been waiting for a while for a lull in the conversation, but you guys keep talking!)
01:35 < Timbermaw> i agree, they talk nonstop
01:35 < nrook> it's a decent, unresistable conjuration available in a very common book
01:35 <+due> And?
01:35 < nrook> so why would any conjurer pick up earth, ever?
01:35 <@dpeg> he says it's too good for the availability
01:35 <+due> LCS/
01:35 <+due> Then we should tone down the availability of power.
01:36 < nrook> I think it's too good for any availability greater than "in annihilations," to be honest.
01:36 < nrook> Earth would be a lot more interesting if people could dip into it for a decent, irresistable spell.
01:36 <@dpeg> nrook: despite the range 4 nerf'
01:36 < nrook> But with mystic blast, there really isn't any motivation to do so.
01:36 <+due> You can get Mystic Blast with Sif Muna very quickly and very easily.
01:38 < nrook> dpeg: IMB is at range 4 now?
01:38 <@dpeg> yes
01:38 < nrook> even so, you don't need to have a great irresistable spell, or even a good one.  It just needs to be non-terrible.
01:39 < nrook> Most enemies won't resist your attacks, and for them you can use your specialty.
01:39 <+doy> how does imb compare to ice bolt?
01:39 <+doy> (or whatever we're calling it these days)
01:39 < ogaz> nrook: even in 0.5, ice bolt is about as good as IMB
01:39 < ogaz> I actually like it better because of the +1 range
01:39 <+due> IMB just has a really good reputation, in my opinion.
01:40 < nrook> ice bolt is probably a little bit better, but it involves another school
01:40 < ogaz> but then, I don't like fire conjurers as much as ice conjurers
01:40 <+doy> ice is a lot more fun than fire
01:40 <+doy> (:
01:40 <+due> Ice is really fun, fire is boring.
01:40 < nrook> this is really only an issue for the fire conjurers, because the ice ones have ice bolt
01:40 <+doy> fire needs more explosions
01:40 <+due> fire conjurers have bolt of magma
01:41 <+due> anyway, what is this conversation about?
01:41 < nrook> but afaik nobody uses it, since mystic blast is much easier to cast (no earth) and good enough
01:41 <+doy> replace ice storm with something more thematic, and ditch bolt of fire
01:41 <+doy> and give fire more explosions
01:41 <+doy> (:
01:41 <+due> nrook: Heh, so?
01:41 <+due> We just make IMB rare.
01:42 < nrook> That works if it's rare enough so that, say, only 1/8 casters will get it by the middle of the game.  But even Tukima isn't that rare, is it?
01:42 < nrook> (You could put it back in Annihilations, but I don't think that's on the table :p)
01:42 <+due> I don't get what the issue is.
01:42 <+due> IMB is too good
01:42 <+due> OR
01:42 <+due> IMB overshadows other good spells, so nobody uses them?
01:42 <+due> Or both?
01:43 < TGWi> no and no?
01:43 < nrook> the latter, I think
01:43 < TGWi> ice bolt is better, sticky flame is better
01:43 < TGWi> it overshadows maybe stone arrow
01:43 < nrook> IMB isn't really better than ice bolt, it's just easy to cast
01:43 <+due> I don't get why that is an issue.
01:43 < ogaz> I don't like IMB in annihilations because it's not annihilatory enough
01:43 < TGWi> ogaz: but it is powerful
01:43 <+due> ogaz: Agree, I always found an XL4 spell in annihilations odd.
01:43 < TGWi> demonology has call imp
01:43 <+due> IMB got nerfed in 0.5 with the spell range changes.
01:44 < TGWi> I don't see what the problem is
01:44 < nrook> my point is "mystic blast discourages conjurers from expanding into other schools by giving them a cheap and effective irresistable option"
01:44 <+due> Me neither, to be honest?
01:44 < TGWi> due: you should use some voodoo to make a vault with seasons
01:44 <+due> nrook: So?
01:44 < ogaz> fire conjurers will still need to expand into another school
01:44 < ogaz> unless you want to kill orbs of fire with IMB
01:44 <+due> nrook: They're only cheapening themselves.
01:44 < nrook> so nobody really uses earth
01:45 <+due> I don't think it's our responsibility, they're all quite viable.
01:45 < ogaz> well, the actual issue is that poison arrow is the only thing that keeps poison competitive, but it's also enough to choke earth magic
01:45 < TGWi> s
01:45 < TGWi> erm
01:45 < TGWi> ignore that
01:45 <@dpeg> Does anyone know how stealth and stealth training are affected by heavy armours?
01:46 < nrook> poison arrow is at least in theory rare, though
01:46 <+due> And poison arrow is XL6 and quite powerful.
01:46 < ogaz> dpeg: in 0.5, you cannot train stealth until you have 3*ev in armour skill
01:46 <+due> This is a really familiar argument.
01:47 < ogaz> er, 3*ev penalty
01:47 <+due> In my own opinion, not every school *must* be as viable nor as popular as every other school; they all have positives and negatives, strengths and weaknesses.
01:47 <+due> I still disagree with the notion that all characters should be able to deal with early game threats (poison, cold and fire resistant). They are this for the exact  reason that the early game *needs* threats.
01:47 <@dpeg> due: but that does not refer to HEAVY/LIGHT armours as such... greensnark said there would be an effect like that.
01:48 <+due> dpeg: I don't know, sorry?
01:48 <@dpeg> erm, due <--> ogaz 
01:48 <+due> :)
01:48 < TGWi> due: interesting threats are less "the player can't deal with them" than they are "they can deal with the player"
01:48 <+due> So, people think that IMB is super powerful, and wlil pass up the Earth school (which itself has some amazingly powerful spells), because of this misconception?
01:49 <+due> I think the best we can do in this situation is to make IMB rarer again (take it out of Power, maybe, or decrease the commonness of power), and issue an advisory.
01:49 <+doy> how does imb compare to, say, bolt of iron?
01:49 < ogaz> imo, IMB is not particularly powerful, and what passes up the earth school is poison arrow
01:49 <+due> "STOP! Iskenderun's Mystic Blast is *not* the spell you think it is!"
01:49 < TGWi> doy: different niche?
01:49 <+due> "If you are using IMB for any of the following reasons, you *should* think again:
01:49 <+doy> TGWi: different how?
01:49 <+due> etc, etc.
01:49 < TGWi> doy: 50% more MP, hella more hunger?
01:49 < nrook> I assume it's much worse, given that it's power 4 rather than power 6
01:50 <+doy> TGWi: whatever the level 4 earth spell is
01:50 <+due> Stone Arrow.
01:50 < TGWi> doy: there is none
01:50 <+doy> stone arrow
01:50 < TGWi> there's stone arrow which is levle 3
01:50 <+due> ??stone arrow
01:50 < TGWi> level 3
01:50 <+due> Stone arrow is level 4, no?
01:50 < TGWi> it's only available in two starting books
01:50 < TGWi> 3
01:50 <+doy> stone arrow used to be 4, at least
01:50 < TGWi> it's 3
01:50 < Henzell> stone arrow[1/1]: A level 3 earth/conjuration spell.  Found in the book of Geomancy, starting book for EEs, and also in the Book of Conjurations [fire], starting book for fire-based conjurers. Does 2d12 dmg at max power. Does massive damage from ghosts for some reason.
01:50 <+doy> i don't know if it was changed
01:50 < TGWi> damnit guys it's level 3
01:50 < TGWi> :[
01:50 < ogaz> dpeg: sorry, what I said referred only to heavy armours, you could train stealth from the beginning in light. I don't know how it works in 0.6
01:50 <+pointless_> I think it was always level 3
01:50 <@dpeg> ogaz: thank you very much
01:51 < nrook> nobody knows what level stone arrow is because nobody ever has any reason to cast it =/
01:51 < TGWi> nrook: cj[f], ee
01:51 <+pointless_> It's level 3 now and has been for as long as I can recall 
01:51 < TGWi> ee definitely uses it because it's their first long range conjuration
01:51 <+due> nrook: It's an excellent starting spell for conjurers lookin to go to EE.
01:51 < TGWi> and if people don't play ee, it's not stone arrow's fault
01:51 <+doy> i guess my knowledge is kinda weak since i've never seriously played ee
01:51 <+doy> (:
01:51 < nrook> (except ee, nobody plays ee but that's not-yeah)
01:52 <+doy> i think the problem with ee is mostly that it's based around just raw damage, but fire does that better already
01:52 <+doy> we need to fix fire, i think
01:52 < nrook> also stone arrow has a bad (probably unfair) reputation
01:53 <@dpeg> the elements need diversification as much as anything else
01:53 < TGWi> ice is plenty different, so's air
01:53 < ogaz> earth is pretty different too, though
01:54 < TGWi> it's just poison's gimmick is "almost being earth" and fire only has conjurations
01:54 < nrook> my point is just that more people would go into earth were earth the goto place for irresistable damage, but with irresistable damage everywhere that isn't really a benefit
01:55 < TGWi> is it bad if an element can't compete in conjurations?
01:56 < TGWi> earth's conjurations aren't bad, and whether conjurers use them, EE types do
01:56 < Eronarn> TGWi: did you get your access?
01:56 < TGWi> earth has shatter, not mud storm
01:56 < TGWi> eronarn: yeah
01:56 < TGWi> earth only HAS two conjurations, yeah?
01:56 < ogaz> 3
01:56 < TGWi> and bolt of magma but shut up
01:56 < ogaz> I was actually referring to stone arrow, iron bolt, and LCS
01:56 < TGWi> orite
01:57 < ogaz> also there's several earth/tmut damage spells; I'm not sure how it all works out for EE because I've rarely felt inclined to play it
01:57 < nrook> hmm, are books like the Monster Manual artefacts?
01:58 <+due> No
01:58 < nrook> it would be fun to have more medium-rarity books like that with goofy themes
01:58 <+due> They're just books :)
02:00 < ogaz> does EE have early-game issues of their exp being split too much between earth, tmut, and conj?
02:00 < TGWi> ee keeps conjuration off I think
02:00 < TGWi> and no more than IE splits it between ice/coj/enc
02:01 < ogaz> IE doesn't need to raise ench early, though
02:01 < TGWi> does ee need conj early?
02:01 < nrook> a book of really loud spells!
02:01 < ogaz> I have no idea, that's why I'm asking
02:01 < TGWi> nrook:
02:01 < TGWi> ??book of tempests
02:01 < Henzell> book of tempests[1/1]: Spells: Static Discharge, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Shatter
02:01 < nrook> oh, that already exists
02:01 < TGWi> :P
02:02 < TGWi> there are already a bunch of goofy midgame books that nobody uses because they're so goofy
02:02 <@dpeg> we all know that spells need love, both local (spell by spell) and global (the whole schools)
02:03 <+due> dpeg: Sure, but there hav ebeen a lot of voices screaming for us to make all the schools inherently the same, and I don't think that is a good approach.
02:03 < nrook> how about a thief's handbook!
02:03 < nrook> apportation, swiftness, control teleport, lrd, invisibility
02:04 <@dpeg> due: absolutely
02:04 <@dpeg> nrook: passwall?
02:04 < nrook> passwall, yeah!
02:04 < TGWi> due: who screamed that? that's stupid
02:04 <+due> TGWi: A variety  of people.
02:04 <@dpeg> nrook: propose it, it's nice
02:04 <@dpeg> we now also have noises and ranges to differentiate spells/schools
02:05 < TGWi> LRD? wha?
02:05 < TGWi> isn't that loud?
02:05 < nrook> well, not every thief is subtle
02:05 <@dpeg> TGWi: it is very easy to slip into that mode of thinking
02:05 < nrook> it's loud, but it's the only way to break into certain places
02:05 <@dpeg> TGWi: dynamite --> tresor
02:05 < TGWi> fair enough
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02:06 < TGWi> call it "book of burglary" though
02:07 <+due> dpeg: Add the conducts thing to the 0.7 wishlist, I might give it a go.
02:07 < nrook> TGWi: that's a better name :)
02:07 <@dpeg> due: cool but perhaps by already has a plan :)
02:07 <+due> dpeg: Not sure, perhaps :)
02:08 <@dpeg> due: but we really need conducts and piety for exploration to move on to some cool new god or god changes.
02:08 <@dpeg> How does Armour training work right now? I couldn't get it out of Henzell.
02:08 <+due> dpeg: Easily done by a quick overhaul, I think.
02:08 < TGWi> ??armour skill[2]
02:08 < Henzell> armour skill[2/4]: The EV penalty of a piece of armour is reduced by (Armour skill * strength) / 60, but cannot be reduced to less than half (round towards zero) of its original value; -3 EV armour always gives at least -1 EV.
02:09 < TGWi> ??armour skill[3]
02:09 < Henzell> armour skill[3/4]: The chance of exercising the armour skill when a monster hits and deals more than 0 damage is equal to: (body armour weight)/2000 and is capped at 50%. You have an equal chance of exercising it one or two units.
02:09 < TGWi> ??armour skill[4]
02:09 < Henzell> armour skill[4/4]: The armour skill also has a (body armour weight)/6000 chance of being excersied 1 point every 20 turns or so. This chance is capped at 1 in 6.
02:09 < TGWi> [3] and [4]
02:09 <@dpeg> thanks
02:09 < nrook> ooh, how about a book of spells which make you harder to kill?
02:09 < TGWi> as of 0.5 I think
02:09 <@dpeg> so there is NO reference to HEAVY/LIGHT here?
02:09 < TGWi> nrook: ozo...
02:09 < nrook> stoneskin, ozocubu's armour, phase shift, death's door
02:09 < TGWi> dpeg: it only trains in heavy armour
02:09 <@dpeg> ok
02:09 < TGWi> stoneskin and ozo in the same book is bleah
02:10 <+due> dpeg: It's also like the stoneskin FR, "please let undead use it. you could call it XYZ instead. but please let them use it!".
02:10 <+due> dpeg: which is so totally different from "stoneskin is boring, let's make it interesting".
02:10 < TGWi> what's like that?
02:10 < nrook> alright, replace ozo with dmsl
02:10 < TGWi> nrook: cool!
02:10 < ogaz> throw in borgnjor
02:10 <+due> dmsl is rubbish
02:10 <+due> do borgjnor instead :D
02:10 < ogaz> do both
02:11  * ogaz uses dmsl
02:11 < nrook> am I right in assuming that it's really easy to add new books?
02:11 <+due> that makes it sound like a drug.
02:11 <+due> nrook: not really easy, but relatively.
02:11 <+due> anyway
02:11 <+due> are we all for turning down the commonness oof book of power?
02:11 <+due> now that it has IMB?
02:11 <+due> ??book of power
02:11 < Henzell> book of power[1/1]: Contains Animate Dead, Venom Bolt, Bolt of Iron, Invisibility, Mass Confusion and Poisonous Cloud.
02:11 <@dpeg> due: yes, you are correct, as I said. Stand strong!
02:11 < TGWi> due: sure
02:12 < TGWi> I liked book of power before though
02:12 < nrook> well, it's either that or put ood somewhere else
02:12 < TGWi> it was like a list of spells that people don't use
02:12 <+due> No, OOD is good for Annihilations.
02:12 < nrook> er, mystic blast
02:12 <+kilobyte> Annihilations isn't full.
02:12 <+due> We could always move it back to Annihilations.
02:12 < nrook> that was like a typo, except I typed something completely different from what I meant
02:12 < TGWi> how full is full?
02:12 <+due> TGWi: Nine spells.
02:12 < TGWi> book of the sky is just completely nuts
02:12 < TGWi> ??book of the sky
02:12 < Henzell> book of the sky[1/1]: Summon Elemental, Insulation, Airstrike, Flight, Silence, Lightning Bolt, Deflect Missiles, Conjure Ball Lightning.
02:12 <+due> Is it nine spells?
02:13 < nrook> we could have a book of medium-sized conjurations
02:13 < TGWi> and that's only eight, what
02:13 <+due> Ah, 8.
02:13 <+kilobyte> 8, Annihilations has 6
02:13 < nrook> it's kind of weird that vehumet gives the book of power, anyway, since it has a bunch of not-conjurations in it
02:13 <+due> why did I think it was nine? Maybe because of all the level nine spells.
02:13 < TGWi> 6 is a good book size
02:13 < ogaz> book of the sky reminds me: summon elemental should probably leave geomancy, as there's no way to train up summoning to actually get it castable without abyssing you or something
02:13 <+due> Spell book overhauls -> 0.7.
02:13 < ogaz> okay
02:13 <+due> So, either make power less common, or move IMb back to Annihilations.
02:13 <+due> dpeg, thoughts?
02:14 < nrook> due: yeah, that's true.  Just make power less common then, not too much collateral
02:14 <@dpeg> due: on what? My thoughts are: no changes based on lukewarm irc discussions :)
02:14 <+due> I lean towards making power less common, or leaving it as-is.
02:14 < TGWi> lukewarm irc discussions are the best
02:14 <@dpeg> Rather: what's the limit for Armour training, depending on your armour?
02:15 <@dpeg> TGWi: no, changes coming from them can lead to an annoying amount of work.
02:15 <@dpeg> 3*EVP?
02:15 < ogaz> dpeg: it stops training passively at that point, but I think it still trains if you take damage while wearing it
02:15 <@dpeg> anybody can confirm?
02:17 < nrook> another book idea: the Tome of the Dragon, which contains dragony spells! (after this I'll stop, though this is very addicting)
02:17 < nrook> flight, cause fear, bolt of fire, dragon form
02:17 < TGWi> nrook: no don't
02:17 < TGWi> this is fun
02:18 <@dpeg> nrook: wiki! :)
02:18 < nrook> dpeg: I don't have page-creation powers :( Somebody else will have to do it for me
02:18 < nrook> I bet this could be moved to ##crawl, too, since it isn't like there are real Design Decisions being made, and everybody will have fun ideas
02:19 < TGWi> nrook: I can compile these if you say them again
02:19 <@dpeg> nrook: not an updater?
02:19 < nrook> dpeg: oh hey, I am, apparently, according to mantis
02:19 < nrook> did not know this!
02:20 -!- SiberSchool [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
02:20 < nrook> yeah, I am
02:20 <@dpeg> nrook: expect new pages now
02:20 < nrook> sweet, now I'm officially part of the coterie of medium-skilled players who hang out in ##crawl-dev and say things every once in a while
02:21 < ogaz> dpeg: with 18 armour skill in plate, I managed to train armour by having a stone giant hit me(though dodging trained faster)
02:21 < TGWi> brainstorm>magic>new page "Books," right?
02:21 < ogaz> (this was using wizmode 0.5)
02:22 < TGWi> or brainstorm>magic>spells>book ideas? or what? wiki is perplexing
02:22 <@dpeg> TGWi: either of these are okay
02:22 < nrook> I can confirm that, my storm dragon armour games generally have 15 armour and like 10% training
02:22 <+due> WIKI! <3
02:22 <@dpeg> ogaz: what does that confirm? :)
02:22 < nrook> TGWi: if you haven't started yet, I can do it (it turns out I do have wiki privileges)
02:22 < TGWi> ok, cool, you do it
02:23 <+due> I still haven't fixed the of flame of flame deaths
02:23 <+due> I hav eno idea what to do about them.
02:23 <+due> Oh wait
02:24 < ogaz> dpeg: that you can train armour non-passively by having things damage you even once your armour skill is >=3*EVP
02:25 <@dpeg> ogaz: thanks!
02:25 <@dpeg> I am trying to set up a completely new Armour training, but for this I need to know the current one.
02:26 < nrook> hmm, do I want to start brainstorm:magic:books:start?
02:27 < nrook> or just brainstorm:magic:books?
02:27 < TGWi> nrook: book of immunity: resist poison, insulation, see invisible, deflect missiles
02:27 <@dpeg> the latter
02:27 <@dpeg> my idea is that armour training *only* depends on (total damage)/(armour skill), up to constants. What do you think?
02:28 <@dpeg> ogaz: do you also know about Dodging trainingß
02:29 < ogaz> dpeg: no, sorry. All I know is it doesn't train if your armour is <3*evp and you're in heavy
02:30 <@dpeg> that might suffice
02:31 <@dpeg> do we agree that (1) Armour training is a bit too slow, (2) the passive training is bad, (3) the active training is scummable (hence also not ideal)?
02:31 < nrook> TGWi: Statue Form?
02:31 < TGWi> ooh, that can replace dmsl
02:31 -!- henryci [n=henry@c-71-232-165-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit []
02:32 < purge> every skill is scummable?
02:32 < TGWi> maybe ice form for sinv too, for the elemental resistance
02:32 <@dpeg> purge: some are worse than others
02:32 < TGWi> that also puts it at 2 enchantments and 2 transmutations, none sharing auxiliary schools <3
02:33 <@dpeg> purge: standing in a sea of tiny monsters with full pool, doing nothing == bad
02:33 < nrook> TGWi: put in ring of flames, and you can resist every element :)
02:33 < TGWi> nrook: yeah :D
02:33 < TGWi> ??statue form
02:33 < Henzell> statue form[1/2]: Grants great AC (17 + earth/2), a 50% HP boost, and +2 Str, but makes the base action cost of an action 15 instead of 10, similar to the slow spell. Available slots: weapon, cloak, helmet, boots. Provides rPois, rElec, rN+. Huge unarmed damage: base = unarmed_skill + 12 + str. In statue form, {stoneskin} adds more AC than normal.
02:34 <@dpeg> nrook: cold?
02:34 < nrook> dpeg: ice form!
02:34 <@dpeg> sure
02:35 < nrook> I need a name for the stoneskin/phase shift/borgnjor/etc book, too
02:35 < nrook> I have the "book of survival", but that's a bad name
02:35 < TGWi> book of defense, if you're boring
02:35 <+due> no
02:35 <+due> book of skins
02:35 < TGWi> that's sort of neat
02:35 < TGWi> book of durability?
02:36 < nrook> have to take out borgnjor if you're going to call it the book of skins, though
02:36 <+due> needs more creepy
02:36 <+due> why take out borgnjor?
02:36 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit ["sleep"]
02:36 <+due> book of flesh
02:36 < TGWi> oh my god, book of flesh!
02:36 < nrook> haha, that's a fun name!
02:36 <+due> you have to put cigottuvi's degeneration in in that case
02:36 < TGWi> stoneskin sublimation simulacrum
02:36 <+due> okay, time to go out <3
02:36 < TGWi> degeneration
02:36 < TGWi> g'day due
02:36 <+due> TGWi: oooh, true.
02:37 <+due> g'day?
02:37 <+due> you're not australian :o
02:37 < TGWi> g'night
02:37 < nrook> g'night due then
02:37 <+due> !tell mu_ Working on it, thanks!
02:37 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let mu_ know.
02:37 <+due> I'll be back in an hour ;)
02:37 < TGWi> everyone is australian while working on crawl
02:37 < TGWi> uh, good evening then
02:37 -!- mincedd [n=matthew@pool-96-237-13-234.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
02:38 -!- Siber [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Connection timed out]
02:39 < TGWi> book of contact: confusing touch, freeze, vamp drain
02:39 < TGWi> um
02:39 < nrook> sticky flame, soon!
02:39 < TGWi> yeah :D
02:39 < ogaz> shock :P
02:39 < TGWi> shock?
02:39 < nrook> :p
02:40 < nrook> how often do you cast shock not adjacent to an enemy? :)
02:40 < TGWi> ah, heh
02:40 < TGWi> static discharge
02:40 < TGWi> confusing touch, freeze, vamp drain, static discharge, sticky flame soon sounds like a good book
02:40 < ogaz> I don't know if sticky getting nerfed that hard is a good idea; doesn't that end up with fire being just worse than ice?
02:41 < TGWi> ogaz: at the same time as making more spells I think
02:41 < nrook> sticky is already really strong, and this makes it more fun imo
02:41 < nrook> reavers don't care about the range problem
02:42 < purge> sticky flame needs at least a range of 2
02:42 < TGWi> why
02:42 < nrook> anyway, it'll be getting perfect accuracy, too!
02:42 < TGWi> nrook, are you writing these down or should I be?
02:43 < purge> because it cannot be used with conjure flame if range is 1
02:43 < TGWi> purge: heh
02:43 < nrook> TGWi: I am!
02:43 < TGWi> nrook: cool
02:43 < TGWi> would book of bolts be overpowered?
02:43 < nrook> it might already exist, actually
02:43 < TGWi> cold, fire, venom
02:44 < TGWi> shock
02:44 < nrook> also we ran out of bolts with the name changes!
02:44 < nrook> is magma a real bolt?
02:44 < TGWi> s/shock/lightning
02:44 < TGWi> I'd include one of fire or magma
02:44 < TGWi> maybe even magma, since it represents earth as well
02:44 < nrook> I can't remember if magma is actually a bolt or not
02:44 < TGWi> lightning bolt, venom bolt, bolt of magma, bolt of cold
02:44 < TGWi> it is
02:45 <@elly> bolt of ice makes vastly more sense
02:45 < TGWi> ?
02:45 <@elly> what is a 'bolt of cold'?
02:45 < TGWi> ok, that's true
02:46 < nrook> how would a bolt of ice go through people, though?
02:46 < nrook> without killing them?
02:46 < TGWi> but if it were made of ice it would have to be partially irresistible
02:46 < TGWi> and that would be hella OP
02:46 <@elly> oh, I see
02:46 <@elly> hrm
02:46 <@elly> nrook: it's not like a bolt of magma is any differnet
02:46 <@elly> different
02:46 <@elly> it's molten rock at several hundred degrees
02:46 < TGWi> but yeah, you can't even say "it's made of energy" because cold isn't energy
02:47 < nrook> elly: oh, yeah, that's true, magma doesn't make any sense either
02:47 <@elly> what's the theme you're going for?
02:47 < nrook> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:books
02:47 <@elly> well so
02:48 <@elly> a bolt of cold _could_ work
02:48 <@elly> create a localized area of very low-temperature air and throw it at someone
02:48 <@elly> ooh, I like
02:48 < TGWi> elly: yeah I thought of that too
02:48 -!- Yeznik [n=yeznik@72-45-9-012-dhcp.gsv.md.atlanticbb.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
02:48 < TGWi> but it has to be an air spell then
02:48 <@elly> it's true
02:48 <@elly> well, which book is this for?
02:48 <@elly> Book of Bolts? :P
02:48 < nrook> book of bolts
02:48 <@elly> aha, okay
02:48 < nrook> not even kidding
02:48 < nrook> it wasn't my idea :p
02:48 <@elly> what are the existing bolts?
02:48 < TGWi> sorry :P
02:49 <@elly> okay, well, the 'Bolt of foo' name theme sounds a little bit silly when carried to that extreme
02:49 < TGWi> ok so ignore that book
02:50 < SiberSchool> Bolt of bolts
02:50 <@elly> well, there's a good theme in there though
02:50 -!- SiberSchool is now known as Siber
02:50 <@elly> it's more or less the book of hard-hitting single-target spells
02:50 <@elly> right?
02:50 < TGWi> bolts are the multi-target ones
02:50 <@elly> oh
02:52 < ogaz> in 0.5, some were multi-target and some single; I think in 0.6 only every bolt is multi-target
02:52 < ogaz> also I like the idea of a book of bolts, vehumet could gift it instead of power
02:52 -!- Kyrris [n=1@c-67-186-34-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
02:52 < TGWi> oh, woah, you're right
02:53 <@elly> okay, well
02:53 < purge> vehumet is the summoner god too
02:53 < Kyrris> Every time someone says "woah", I hear "I know kung fu."
02:53 < TGWi> and we could make a low-level general conjurations book instead of book of conjurations
02:53 < purge> really power should contain a couple summons
02:53 < TGWi> purge: right, which is why he also gives book of summonings
02:53 <@elly> hrm
02:53 < Kyrris> Really, Vehumet should stop giving summoner books.
02:54 < TGWi> he gives summ books if you have more summoning
02:54 <@elly> 'multi-target spells' isn't a cohesive theme in the same way that the first three books on that page are themes
02:54 < Kyrris> He's perfect for conjurers.  He doesn't give summoners anything but a wizardry bonus.
02:54 < purge> summ books? you mean book?
02:54 <@elly> multi-target spells vaguely strikes me as something like 'Tome of Slaughter'
02:54 < TGWi> tome of the dragon is a work of art
02:54 < TGWi> purge: what the hell are you talking about
02:54 < TGWi> callings, summonings, demonology
02:54 < purge> oh thats right
02:55 < nrook> oh, I assumed purge was just insulting the book of demonology
02:55 < TGWi> :P
02:55 < purge> i don't play summoners
02:55 < purge> well haven't in years
02:55 < ogaz> demonology is an awful book, from what people who actually play summoners say
02:55 <@elly> is there already something like a Book of Protection?
02:55 < TGWi> I hear demonic horde is fun
02:55 < nrook> the book of demonic horde
02:56 < TGWi> ??demonology
02:56 < Henzell> demonology[1/1]: Abjuration, Recall, Call Imp, Summon Demon, Demonic Horde, Summon Greater Demon.  Cannot be read unless you are a level 10 summoner and level 6 spellcaster, or a Vehumite.  Cannot be acquired except by "I give up, heres a random book."  Vehumet's third gift to summoners and sixth to conjurers.
02:56 < ogaz> elly: I don't think so
02:56 <@elly> Book of Immunity has elemental resists and stuff; what about physical damage resists?
02:56 < TGWi> see also: greater demon
02:56 <@elly> (are there enough of those to care about?)
02:56 < Kyrris> Castable spirit status would be nice.
02:56 < TGWi> elly: book of skins is up there
02:56 <@elly> oh, so it is
02:56 <@elly> Book of Reshaping
02:56 < ogaz> elly: I can think of 3: stoneskin, ozocubu's armour, and condensation shield. The problem is, you can't have stoneskin and ozocubus simultaneously
02:56 < nrook> the book of dreams
02:57 <@elly> nrook: ooh, I like
02:57 < nrook> I have no idea what the book of dreams would contain, though
02:57 <@elly> a random selection of spells each time you find it? :)
02:57 < nrook> other than ensorcelled hibernation :p
02:57 <@elly> (yes, I know that's hard)
02:57 < TGWi> book of dreams with EH <3
02:57 < TGWi> intoxication?
02:57 < nrook> intoxication, maybe, yeah
02:58 < nrook> shadow creatures!
02:58 < Kyrris> Intox, EH, tame beasts, polymorph other
02:58 < TGWi> flight? :P
02:58 < Kyrris> And shadow creatures, yeah.
02:58 < TGWi> kyrris' are nice too
02:58 < TGWi> and shadow creatures!
02:58 < Kyrris> That's a good set of dreamy five.
02:59 < nrook> indeed, I'll add it
02:59 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
02:59 < TGWi> which five?
02:59 < Kyrris> tm/pois, ice/ench, ench, tm, summ
02:59 < Kyrris> Intox, EH, tame beasts, polymorph other, shadow creatures.
02:59 < nrook> yeah
02:59 < TGWi> no flight?
02:59 < nrook> ?? polymorph other
02:59 < Henzell> polymorph other[1/6]: Changes monsters into other monsters, likely to be harder, but without equipment. When used on players by monsters or uniques, it causes bad mutations 9 times out of 10, or otherwise a random mutation, which can still be bad. You can't use it on yourself
02:59 < ogaz> wait, why tame beasts and poly?
02:59 < nrook> oh, right, flight is cool, too
02:59 < nrook> hmm
02:59 < nrook> tame beasts because you count sheep, I assume
02:59 < Kyrris> ogaz: Apparently you don't have the same dreams I do.  :P
03:00 < TGWi> silence maybe
03:00 < Kyrris> Tame beasts because it gets a power bonus vs. sheep.
03:00 < TGWi> dunno
03:00 < TGWi> clearly we need a summon sheep spell
03:00 < ogaz> Kyrris: I dunno, I almost never remember even dreaming
03:00 < nrook> I thought about silence, but I don't like it, since it's supposed to be stifling
03:00 < TGWi> nrook: oh yeah
03:00 < Kyrris> Yeah, anything that wakes people up shouldn't be in :Dreams.
03:00 < TGWi> phase shift?
03:00 < TGWi> not really
03:01 < Kyrris> Phase shift would be better than poly.
03:01 < Kyrris> No?
03:01 < Kyrris> Two planes at once.
03:01 < nrook> eh/intox/flight/tame beasts might be good enough
03:01 < Kyrris> Who says what the immaterial one is?
03:01 < ogaz> I still don't get tame beasts, but whatever
03:01 < TGWi> :P
03:02 < TGWi> yeah I'd replace tame with shadow creatures and phase shift
03:02 < nrook> oh, right, shadow creatures, forgot that
03:02 < nrook> that's better, yes
03:02 < nrook> so EH/Alistair's/Flight/Phase Shift/Shadow Creatures
03:03 < TGWi> cool
03:03 < Kyrris> That makes...  ice/ench, air/ench, summ, tloc/ench, and pois/tmut.
03:03 < TGWi> phase shift isn't ench
03:03 < Kyrris> I like that, for a generalist wizard book.
03:03 < TGWi> it's a nice mix
03:03 < Kyrris> Pure tloc?
03:03 < TGWi> yeah
03:03 < Kyrris> 2,6,5,6,4
03:03 < Kyrris> Good mid-power book.
03:03 < TGWi> yeah :D
03:04 < TGWi> but that's wrong
03:04 < nrook> hmm, I know where the "real" books are, but I can't find the fixedarts
03:04 < TGWi> ??alistairs
03:04 < Henzell> alistairs intoxication[1/3]: Confuses all natural monsters in line of sight which aren't poison resistant or of animal or lower intelligence. This includes you if not wearing an amulet of clarity. Also drains 1-3 points of intelligence 5% of the time. Found only in Book of Party Tricks, L4 Transmutation-Poison spell.
03:04 < TGWi> 2,4,4,5,5
03:04 < TGWi> which is also a good mid-power book
03:04 < nrook> I remember hearing about a "second course in magic" on somethingawful which was all, like, power 4 spells, but it isn't in spl-book.cc
03:04 < nrook> TGWi: an ogre's paradise :)
03:04 < ogaz> nrook: that's a randart
03:04 < TGWi> that's a randart
03:04 < nrook> oh, that's a randart? that explains it
03:05 < TGWi> there are two types of randart books, the fixed-school and fixed-level ones
03:05 < ogaz> occasionally you get randart books that have all the spells at the same level
03:05 < TGWi> the fixed level ones are rarer but completely awesome
03:05 < ogaz> I remember getting a Boris book in Pan with all level 7 spells
03:05 < TGWi> book of reality, for anti-magic effects?
03:05 < TGWi> see invisible, silence
03:05 < TGWi> uh
03:05 < nrook> oh wow, that's really cool ogaz 
03:05 < nrook> but wait
03:05 < nrook> if it's level 7, it doesn't have iron bolt, drain, or crystal spear!
03:06 < Kyrris> Flight is 5?
03:06 < TGWi> ??flight
03:06 < Henzell> flight[1/1]: Level 4 ench/air. Grants levitation and controlled flight for its duration. Found in the {book of the sky}.
03:06 < TGWi> it's 4
03:06 < Kyrris> Oh, wow.
03:06 <+doy> what interesting level 7 spells are there?
03:06 < Kyrris> I was thinking dMsl/haste/silence, I guess.
03:06 < TGWi> greater demon
03:06 < Kyrris> Are restricted-book spells allowed in other books?
03:06 < nrook> every single tloc spell
03:07 < nrook> Kyrris: yeah, Shatter's in the book of tempests
03:07 < Kyrris> Right.
03:07 < nrook> and Haunt hangs out in Summonings
03:07 < ogaz> shatter's also in the other book with dragonform, I think
03:07 < TGWi> nrook, you forgot the book of flesh
03:07 < nrook> TGWi: honestly, I missed the book of flesh completely
03:07 < nrook> TGWi: I'll go look for it
03:07 <@elly> Book of Rending!
03:08 < Timbermaw> animate dead on meat rations should make dancing ribs
03:08 < TGWi> stoneskin sublimation simulacrum cigotuvi
03:08 < TGWi> nrook: ping
03:08 < Kyrris> Animate dead should make chunks into toe golems.
03:09 < nrook> TGWi: book of alliteration! I like it.
03:09 < TGWi> hahaha
03:09 < TGWi> that was flesh
03:09 < nrook> I know, but it's a book with cool alliteration
03:10 < nrook> ?? simulacrum
03:10 < Henzell> simulacrum[1/2]: Powerful but easy-to-kill ice copies of monsters. These can inflict massive amounts of damage if the player lacks cold resistance. They also leave a cloud of freezing vapor when killed.
03:10 < nrook> ?? cigutovi
03:10 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled cigutovi in my learndb.
03:10 < nrook> ?? degeneration
03:10 < Henzell> degeneration[1/1]: Drains a random attribute (str, int, dex).  By 1d4. Will kill you of {stat drain} if chosen stat is low enough.
03:10 < nrook> ?? cigotovi's degeneration
03:10 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled cigotovis_degeneration in my learndb.
03:11 < TGWi> ??cigotuvis degeneration
03:11 < Henzell> cigotuvis degeneration[1/2]: Requires line of fire, checks magic resistance, only works on natural monsters. Turns enemy into a {pulsating lump}, which means not only that you don't get the original monster's exp, but that you'll get mutated if it hits you.
03:11 <+doy> simulacrums should leave a radius 1 cloud of freezing vapour
03:11 < TGWi> ??cigotuvis degeneration[2]
03:11 < Henzell> cigotuvis degeneration[2/2]: Naturally, you SHOULD cast this on every monster worth less than 52 XP, if you have the spell hungerless.  Actually, just use Polymorph Other on them.
03:11 <+doy> rather than just a single tile
03:11 < TGWi> doy: they do
03:11 < TGWi> oh, what?
03:11 <+doy> make them actually dangerous
03:11 <+doy> rather than just annoying
03:11 <+doy> (:
03:11 < nrook> aww, I wanted to check its level because I'm listing them in that order
03:11 < TGWi> they are VERY dangerous
03:11 <+doy> them = the clouds, that is
03:11 < TGWi> af cold is nuts
03:11 <+doy> TGWi: yeah, i meant the cloud part
03:11 < TGWi> ah ok
03:13 < nrook> I like the idea of a book which gets the dungeon itself to do your dirty work
03:13 < TGWi> LRD?
03:13 < TGWi> summon elemental
03:13 < nrook> shadow creatures?
03:13 < TGWi> sure
03:13 < nrook> shadow creatures is such a cool spell if you think about it
03:13 < Kyrris> Castable minefield?
03:14 < nrook> you're, like, summoning the memories of the creatures who have passed before you
03:14 < TGWi> mass confusion, maybe?
03:14 < Kyrris> Or should that stay only a card ability?
03:14 < TGWi> no, enslavement
03:14 < ogaz> book of stone of earth elementals
03:14 < nrook> Kyrris: this is all easy stuff, no new spells I think
03:14 < Kyrris> Ah, okay.
03:14 < Kyrris> Spirits.
03:14 < nrook> I tried to get the stone of earth elementals removed, but it got shot down :(
03:15 < TGWi> nrook: enslavement, LRD, summon elemental, shadow creatures
03:15 < TGWi> maybe tame beasts instead of enslavement
03:15 < nrook> is tame beasts any good, incidentally?
03:15 < Kyrris> Err, book of ghosts:  Haunt, shadow creatures, projected noise, freeze.
03:15 < nrook> for such a cool spell I want it to be a hidden gem
03:16 < TGWi> I'm pretty sure it's not very good
03:16 < TGWi> kyrris: freeze is a stretch
03:16 < Kyrris> It works on about half the animals, half the time.  1/5 chance at max power to make pets.
03:16 < Kyrris> Chill touch of death.
03:16 < nrook> freeze is my favorite one in there, actually
03:16 < TGWi> ok, go for it
03:16 < nrook> I'm not so hot on shadow creatures, though
03:17 < TGWi> I'd suggest phase shift but I think I'm overusing it
03:17 < nrook> although I'm thinking everyone has a different picture of what shadow creatures does
03:17 < TGWi> it's just so cool
03:17 < Kyrris> You're the one who talked about summoning those who have gone before.
03:17 < nrook> hmm, yeah
03:17 < ogaz> I'm so happy phase shift is in tloc now; I felt that what tloc needed was a couple of decent spells between levels 4 and 7
03:18 < Kyrris> Tloc needs a damage spell.
03:18 < TGWi> no it doesn't
03:18 < Kyrris> Smite targeted, checks MR.
03:18 < nrook> tloc needs to put stone arrow in the book of translocations
03:18 < ogaz> I want blink other for tloc, that's all
03:18 < Kyrris> "Dislocate".
03:18 < TGWi> dispersal, ogaz
03:18 < TGWi> just expensive
03:18 < ogaz> ??dispersal
03:18 < Henzell> dispersal[1/2]: All monsters that are adjacent to you will be instantly teleported away if they don't resist (via magic resistance). If a monster does resist, 50% of the time it will be blinked instead (even if it's immune!), otherwise nothing happens to it.
03:19 < ogaz> TGWi: I was thinking of something more like what roxanne does
03:19 < TGWi> ok not the same
03:19 < nrook> dispersal should have a second check against 1/2 your opponent's MR instead
03:19 < nrook> anyway, hmm, book of ghosts
03:19 < nrook> I still think it's missing something
03:19 < Kyrris> List of all spells somewhere?
03:19 < TGWi> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:system:immense
03:19 < TGWi> the big table is sorted by school
03:20 < nrook> cause fear?
03:20 < TGWi> practical magic is gone in trunk, right?
03:20 < ogaz> what?!
03:20 < TGWi> cause fear, sure
03:20 < TGWi> ogaz: it has like zero spells left
03:21 < nrook> or petrify!
03:21 < TGWi> ??book of practical magic
03:21 < Henzell> book of practical magic[1/1]: Spells: projected noise, selective amnesia, detect curse, dig, remove curse.
03:21 < Kyrris> Cause fear.
03:21 < ogaz> wait, selective amnesia was removed?
03:21 < nrook> wasn't it always pretty much the book of selective amnesia
03:21 < Kyrris> YES.
03:21 < TGWi> no
03:21 < TGWi> dc and rc are gone
03:21 < nrook> the book of being a terrible person
03:21 < TGWi> amnesia was moved to wizardry
03:21 < ogaz> oh, okay
03:21 < nrook> cause fear, berserker rage, selective amnesia
03:21 < TGWi> nrook: haha
03:22 < Kyrris> Book of the Mind.
03:22 < ogaz> book of movement: swiftness, haste, statue form, slow
03:22 < TGWi> book of transportation? passwall, tele self, cblink - holy shit ogaz
03:22 < Kyrris> Cause Fear, Confusion, Berserker Rage, Selective Amnesia.
03:23 < nrook> book of exodus: cause fear, sticks to snakes, haunt, fedhas's sunlight ability
03:23 < TGWi> corona?
03:24 < Kyrris> That's awesome, nrook, but wait until we can get new spells in there.
03:24 < Kyrris> Also, you need summon scorpions.
03:24 < Kyrris> And conjure flame.
03:25 < TGWi> book of chemistry - distillation, evaporation, sublimation
03:25 < TGWi> I'm not even kidding
03:25 < Kyrris> TGWi: Alchemist's Guidebook.
03:26 < TGWi> yeah that
03:26 < Kyrris> Possibly also LRD.  Yesno?
03:26 < TGWi> nah
03:26 < Kyrris> It's a good necromut primer, anyway.
03:26 < ogaz> stoneskin?
03:26 < Kyrris> And eminently useful.
03:27 < Kyrris> Stoneskin isn't an alchemical procedure.  :P
03:27 < nrook> hmm
03:27 < TGWi> needs more
03:27 < TGWi> but I like that book
03:28 < nrook> I think the book of ghosts needs a better name
03:28 < nrook> phantasmal book?
03:28 < Kyrris> Lethal infusion?
03:28 < TGWi> [adjective] book sounds like an unidentified randart
03:28 < nrook> oh, yeah
03:29 < TGWi> oh
03:29 < TGWi> condensation shield, duh
03:29 < Kyrris> nrook: [Necromancer]'s Dissertation on Spirits
03:29 < Kyrris> Needs a name.
03:29 < TGWi> kyrris: that sounds like an identified randart
03:29 < Kyrris> TGWi: And?
03:29 < TGWi> nrook: book of chemistry - sublimation, condensation, distillation, evaporation
03:29 < Kyrris> It's essentially an unrand, anyway.
03:30 < Kyrris> Not infusion?
03:30 < TGWi> infusion too
03:30 < Kyrris> That's a chemist
03:30 < Kyrris> ry word.
03:30 < nrook> TGWi: I like that a lot, will add it as I try to think of a name for ghosts
03:30 < TGWi> ok
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03:32 < nrook> call it the book of spirits, put in intoxication :p
03:32 < nrook> nah, I'll just add it as ghosts and put a note saying "please better name" since I can't think of anything
03:32 < TGWi> nrook: you're terrible :P
03:33 < Kyrris> I actually like the Spirits pun.
03:33 < Kyrris> And I hate puns.
03:34 < Kyrris> Tell me you put in Cause Fear.
03:34 < Kyrris> Banshee.
03:34 < TGWi> nrook: [book] of mediums?
03:34 < Kyrris> Book of Bahn Sidhe.
03:34 < Kyrris> Bain Sidhe?
03:34 < Kyrris> Yes, Bain.
03:34 < nrook> bain sidhe?
03:34 < TGWi> book of banshees
03:34 < TGWi> projected noise, haunt
03:35 < Kyrris> Instead of ghosts.
03:35 < Kyrris> Bain sidhe.
03:35 < nrook> I mean, I assume that means something but I don't know what
03:35 < Kyrris> Banshee.
03:35 < Kyrris> That's the bastard english spelling.
03:35 < Kyrris> It means female spirit, technically, but the Irish were a euphemistic lot.
03:36 < nrook> everybody's a euphemistic lot when talking about nasty spirits
03:37 < Kyrris> Right.
03:37 < Kyrris> They are the spirits that escort you to the carriage that takes you to hell.
03:37 < nrook> still, I dunno if crawl goes in for references that direct
03:37 < Kyrris> Banshee is a monster TYPE in most games.
03:37 < Kyrris> Like ghasts, or wraiths.
03:37 < nrook> yeah, but "Bain Sidhe" isn't
03:38 < Kyrris> Eh, it's cultural.  Use the english spelling, then.
03:38 < ogaz> Yes, Crawl would never reference mythology directly
03:38 < ogaz> see: nessos, polyphemus
03:38 < Kyrris> Proteus.
03:38 < ogaz> oh, also all the hell lords come from various different sources
03:38 < nrook> well, yeah, but they're old
03:39 < nrook> (the hell lords, not the uniques obv)
03:39 < nrook> and look at the fate of chronos
03:39 < nrook> eh, I'll settle it with the mighty /
03:39 < Kyrris> MIGHTY /
03:39 < Kyrris> MIGHTY /.
03:40 < nrook> I think we should stop for now, the list is getting a bit big
03:41 < eith> bain sidhe is the irish for banshee, it literally means fairy woman
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03:43 < Kyrris> Late to the party, eith.  :P
03:43 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
03:43 < eith> =p
03:45 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has joined ##crawl-dev
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03:50 < Ashenzari> Amulet of Stasis and Teleport traps (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=546) by LordSloth
04:04  * due back.
04:04 < TGWi> due, http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:books
04:04 <+due> Bainsidhe, is better.
04:05 <+due> Or mBainhsidhe in some transliterations.
04:05 <+due> I still do not get eclipsed consonants in Irish.
04:05 <+due> V. confusing.
04:05 < Kyrris> Ignore them, usually.
04:05 <+due> Oh, is that it?
04:05 < Kyrris> Or toss an h after.
04:05 <+due> That's kinda easy.
04:06 < Kyrris> Bhainsidhe, if you want to transliterate it in a way you can read.
04:06 <+due> I only studied Irish for six months.
04:06 < TGWi> does kyrris speak the irish?
04:06 < Kyrris> I mean don't bother writing them.
04:06 < Kyrris> Not unless you want to impress a speaker.
04:06 <+due> Hehe.
04:06 < Kyrris> TGWi: About as well as due.
04:06 <+due> I can pronounce bits of it.
04:06 <+due> But there's all slide vowels and consonant shifts depending on vowels, and then eclipsing.
04:06 < Kyrris> The eclipsed b is halfway to a v sound.
04:07 < Kyrris> Like spanish b.
04:07 <+due> And then the other thing involving the h.
04:07 < Kyrris> Lenition?
04:07 <+due> Lenition!
04:07 <+due> Thank you.
04:07 < Kyrris> Right.  Bh is lenited.
04:07 < Kyrris> Ugh.
04:07 < Kyrris> Fucking Gaelic.
04:07 <+due> Man, it's all coming back to me now.
04:07 <+due> It is not nice.
04:07 < TGWi> ##crawl-arguing-about-linguistics
04:07 <+due> ##crawl-drowning-tgw?
04:07 < Kyrris> Hey, it's relevant to documentation.  :P
04:08 <+due> 'tis.
04:08 < ogaz> eith is actually irish, right?
04:09 < eith> aye
04:09 < Kyrris> nh is straight v sound, isn't it?
04:09 < Kyrris> That doesn't mean he speaks any Gaelic.
04:09  * Kyrris peers suspiciously.
04:09 < eith> well we do actually have to learn it in school
04:10 < Kyrris> Oh, really?  How many years?
04:10 <+due> I studied Japanese for seven years.
04:10 <+due> I... can't remember a thing.
04:11 < eith> you learn irish all the way up to till your like 15
04:12 <+due> Nice!
04:12 <+due> Conversational or grammatical?
04:13 < eith> you have to be able to speak it in exams
04:14 < eith> and listen to it with horrible dialects and shit
04:14 < Kyrris> Ciao.
04:14 < eith> its horrible lol
04:14 <+due> Ick.
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04:17 < TGWi> eronarn: ping
04:17 < Eronarn> pong
04:18 < TGWi> you should see the books page
04:19 <+due> who gave TGWi wiki access? baaad idea.
04:19 <+due> :p
04:19 < eith> =p
04:19 < TGWi> due: only once I figure out how to use the wiki
04:19 < Eronarn> ooh, a page
04:19 < Eronarn> I may look. Doing SQL at the moment.
04:20 < TGWi> that sounds gripping
04:20  * due grips TGWi in horror.
04:20 < TGWi> due: do I have to stop using action verbs or something?
04:21 <+due> No.
04:21 <+due> I'm just being silly.
04:21 <+due> It's okay.
04:23 < Eronarn> TGWi: it's not particularly exciting... but i get paid for it!
04:23 < Eronarn> and the data it will contain *is* exciting
04:24 < Iainuki_> What happened to labs?
04:24 <+doy> something happened to labs?
04:24 <+sorear> Iainuki_: I think you meant that for ##crawl-offtopic
04:25 < Iainuki_> It sounds like a Crawl topic.
04:25 < Iainuki_> Is it not?
04:25 < TGWi> ##crawl-ontopic
04:25 < Iainuki_> Ah, I see.
04:25 < TGWi> or just ##crawl I guess
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04:39 <+due> Okay, larva.
04:39 <+due> ant larva -> lightgrey 'a', soldier ant -> white 'a'. Yes?
04:40 < TGWi> yes!
04:40 <+due> And bee larva to lightgrey 'k'. Yes?
04:40 < TGWi> yes!!
04:40 <+due> Anyone else?
04:41 < Eronarn> sure, why not
04:41 < TGWi> what are ant queens, lightred?
04:41 <+due> yes
04:42 <+due> I'm just going to push it, it makes sens.
04:42 < TGWi> my second choice would be larvae brown/red, bees/ants yellow/lightred, queens white
04:42 < TGWi> so that larvae are darkest
04:43 < TGWi> or maybe my first choice!
04:43 <+due> Any other simple ones?
04:43 <+due> what do we think about swapping wolves and wargs?
04:44 < TGWi> @??wolf
04:44 < Gretell> wolf (h) | Speed: 17 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 3/15 | Damage: 8, 2, 2 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: magic(16) | XP: 99.
04:44 <+due> @??wolf
04:44 < Gretell> wolf (h) | Speed: 17 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 3/15 | Damage: 8, 2, 2 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: magic(16) | XP: 99.
04:44 < TGWi> @??warg
04:44 < Gretell> warg (h) | Speed: 13 | HD: 4 | Health: 16-36 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 12, 3, 3 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: magic(32), poison | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 100.
04:44 < TGWi> uh, what colour are wargs
04:44 < TGWi> white?
04:44 <+due> Wargs have more damage, but wolves and considerably faster.
04:44 <+due> yes.
04:44 < TGWi> @??wolf spider
04:44 < Gretell> wolf spider (s) | Speed: 15 | HD: 8 | Health: 24-64 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 20(medium poison) | Res: magic(32) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 454.
04:44 < TGWi> sure
04:45 <+due> Eronarn, thoughts?
04:45 <+doy> i think wargs and wolves should stay
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04:45 <+due> Hm.
04:45 <+due> Okay, leaving them then.
04:45 <+due> Too contentious to do without discussion.
04:45 <+doy> wargs have more hp and rpois
04:45 <+due> giant iguana -> iguana, thoughts?
04:45 < TGWi> uh no
04:45 < TGWi> they're giant
04:46 <+due> "giant" is overuused.
04:46 < Eronarn> due: i'm the one who proposed switching wolves/wargs, so...
04:46 <+due> in a lot of instances where it is unneccessary.
04:46 <+due> 90% of the 'l' are "giant".
04:46 <+doy> i like the idea of renamings like 'giant lizard' -> 'alligator'
04:46 <+due> doy: 'giant lizard' already got renamed to crocodile :)
04:46 <+doy> but just removing 'giant' from things like iguanas is a bit silly
04:46 <+due> @??crocodile
04:46 < Eronarn> due: favor choose one of giant lizard / giant iguana, drop the other, move the stats to be in the middle of the two
04:46 < Gretell> crocodile (t) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(20) | XP: 104.
04:46 <+due> @??giant lizard
04:46 < Gretell> unknown monster: "giant lizard"
04:46 <+doy> due: right
04:47 < TGWi> they weigh like 20 pounds
04:47 < TGWi> exactly how wimpy is a crawl character?
04:47 < Eronarn> giant newts could be made into iguanas
04:47 <+due> Death drakes are bigger than giant igauans
04:47 < TGWi> @??alligator
04:47 < Gretell> alligator (t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(48) | XP: 962 | Sp: swiftness.
04:47 <+due> they're not "giant death trake".
04:47 < TGWi> uh
04:47 < TGWi> speed 10 act 8?
04:47 <+doy> i mean - i'd be up for renaming most 'giant <foo>' monsters, but let's rename them to something that makes sense
04:47 <+due> *giant death drake
04:47 < TGWi> erm
04:47 <+doy> due: um
04:47 < Eronarn> ...why are alligator/croc on t
04:47 < TGWi> 100/8
04:48 <+due> What?
04:48 < Eronarn> at that point you may as well move all non-drake l to t
04:48 <+doy> due: death drakes could be anything, they aren't real
04:48 < TGWi> why are they act 80%
04:48 <+doy> due: 'iguana' has a specific meaning
04:48 <+due> Hm.
04:48 <+due> Let's deal with issues one at a time.
04:48 < Eronarn> maybe they were meant to be speed 8 act 80%
04:48 <+due> TGWi: alligators are a completely new monster that have nothing to do with crocodiles.
04:49 < ogaz> due: giant giant bat
04:49 <+due> and speed 10 act 80% works quite nice in my tests.
04:49 < TGWi> due: who the hell knows the difference?
04:49 <+due> TGWi: what?
04:49 < TGWi> and can seperate them enough to remember that they're completely different?
04:49 < TGWi> :|
04:49 <+due> Dude.
04:49 <+due> They don't even appear together.
04:49 <+doy> TGWi: what?
04:49 <+due> Alligators are a swamp only monster.
04:49 <+due> Crocodiles appear in the early game, the same place as giant lizards used to.
04:50 < Eronarn> @?giant lizard
04:50 < Gretell> giant lizard (l) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(20) | XP: 104.
04:50 <+due> The only difference between crocodiles and giant lizards is that they'r enow amphibious.
04:50 < TGWi> exactly
04:50 <+due> Oh, go away.
04:50 < TGWi> not that
04:50 <+doy> TGWi: what is your point here
04:50 < TGWi> "The term can also be used more loosely to include all members of the order Crocodilia: i.e. the true crocodiles, the alligators..."
04:51 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o due] by ChanServ
04:51 -!- TGWi was kicked from ##crawl-dev by due [Go away, though.]
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04:51 <+doy> TGWi: different monsters have different stats
04:51 <+doy> this is pretty normal
04:51 < Eronarn> we need an unrand described as crocodile-leather boots
04:51 <+doy> i don't know what you're arguing for
04:51 <+due> Eronarn: Yesss, definitely.
04:51 < TGWi> different monsters with names which are used interchangeably have wildly different stats?
04:51 < Eronarn> due: fwiw TGWi is in the right on this one
04:52 < Eronarn> it was already a problem between giant iguana, giant lizard, komodo dragon
04:52 < TGWi> \o/
04:52 <+due> I. Don't. Care.
04:52 <+due> They are crocodiles.
04:52 <+doy> the term 'snapping turtle' presumably includes alligator snapping turtles too
04:52 < TGWi> !learn add tgw (10:51:49 PM) Eronarn: due: fwiw TGWi is in the right on this one
04:52 < Henzell> tgw[4/4]: (10:51:49 PM) Eronarn: due: fwiw TGWi is in the right on this one
04:52 <+due> They are different colours, they are different glyphs, they are utterly different.
04:52 <+due> Their descriptions are different.
04:52 < Eronarn> due: the problem is in people fighting them for the first time - there is no easy way to see how much HP something has or how hard it hits
04:53 <+due> Eronarn: SO what?
04:53 <+doy> Eronarn: this is true for all monsters
04:53 <+doy> i don't see what the deal is here
04:53 <+due> They'll learn.
04:53 <+due> doy: Me neither.
04:53 <+due> I renamed giant lizards and moved them onto a new glyph. How is this such a massive issue?
04:53 < Eronarn> doy: it's not a huge deal but it is noticeably not ideal
04:54 < TGWi> there is no problem with renaming and moving onto a new glyph
04:54 <+due> Then what is the issue?
04:54 < TGWi> but the new name is synonymous with the name of a far more powerful enemy
04:54 <+doy> TGWi: but the name is different
04:54 <+due> ... the name is *different*.
04:54 <+due> Are people going t ostart looking up monsters in a dictionary?
04:54 < Eronarn> due: it would be like adding a mouse monster, when we already have rats, that was as tough as a giant iguana
04:54 <+doy> i'm pretty sure people will see the different name and realize 'hey, this is a different monster'
04:54 < TGWi> people do not remember the difference between alligators and crocodiles in real life
04:55 < Eronarn> if you called it a "mighty mouse", then okay
04:55 < TGWi> especially *since* you don't see them in the same place, it may not even click that they're different
04:55 <+due> ARGH.
04:55 < Eronarn> people can tell it's supposed to be bigger
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04:55 <+due> They. Will. Learn.
04:55 < Eronarn> but crocodile vs. alligator is not at all intuitive, you can't tell which is tougher until you're already fighting
04:55 < Eronarn> nobody is saying they won't
04:55 <+due> Then why is this an issue?
04:56 <+doy> "stone giant vs fire giant is not at all intuitive, you can't tell which are tougher until you're already fighting"
04:56 <+doy> "steam dragon vs ice dragon etc"
04:56 <+due> Or cyclops versus hill giant.
04:56 <+due> Or naga warior versus greater naga.
04:56 <+due> Or centaur versus yaktaur.
04:56 < Eronarn> um, what
04:56 < TGWi> greater naga doesn't sound more powerful than naga warrior? really?
04:56 < Eronarn> your examples mostly suck
04:56 < Eronarn> yeah
04:56 < Eronarn> seriously, quoting that forever
04:56 <+due> Go away.
04:56 < TGWi> ice doesn't sound more powerful than steam?
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04:57 <+doy> TGWi: mottled vs ice then
04:57 <+due> Or just dragon versus ice dragon.
04:57 < TGWi> it would be more like making a stone giant and a rock giant and expecting people to learn
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04:57 < TGWi> sure, they might, but it's not necessary that they should have to
04:57 <+due> I said stop.
04:58 <+due> Unless someone decides to override me, no change is happening.
04:59 <+due> Any other simple glyph changes need to happen while I'm doing the larvae?
04:59 < Eronarn> did anyone chime in on reassigning vortexes
04:59 <+due> Shadows really ought to change.
05:00 < TGWi> does anything else use v?
05:00 <+doy> shadows definitely
05:00 < Eronarn> air elementals
05:00 <+doy> TGWi: air elementals
05:00 < TGWi> shadows, lol
05:00 < TGWi> @??earth elemental
05:00 < Gretell> earth elemental (#) | Speed: 6 | HD: 6 | Health: 30-60 | AC/EV: 14/4 | Damage: 40 | Flags: non-living | Res: magic(immune), fire+++, cold+++, elec+++, poison+++ | XP: 84.
05:00 < TGWi> @??water elemental
05:00 < Gretell> water elemental ({) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 30-48 | AC/EV: 0/7 | Damage: 25 | Flags: non-living, amphibious, lev | Res: magic(immune), elec++, poison | Vul: fire | XP: 172.
05:00 < Eronarn> at the moment we have insubstantial wisps on p, air elementals on v, smoke demons on 3, vapours on #
05:00 < Eronarn> al for what essentially look like identical monsters
05:00 <+due> Well, smoke demons are a ... demon.
05:00 < Eronarn> we should reduce this to 2 glyphs at most
05:00 <+due> But vapours and air elementals should be 'p'.
05:00 < TGWi> smoke demon is justified I think
05:00 < Eronarn> ...what
05:01 < TGWi> p is a good thing!
05:01 < Eronarn> why p
05:01 < Eronarn> p is for ghosts
05:01 < TGWi> p is for insubstantial guys
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05:01 <+due> p is phantoms and insubstantials.
05:01 <+doy> Eronarn: insubstantial wisps are on p
05:01 < Eronarn> um
05:01 <+due> I thin khe wants to move them off p.
05:01 < Eronarn> out of the several insubstantial monsters in the game
05:01 < Eronarn> one of them is on p
05:01 <+doy> so
05:01 <+due> phantoms are on p.
05:01 < TGWi> what else is?
05:01 < Eronarn> due: er, the non-undead-y ones, anyways
05:01 <+due> ghosts.
05:02 < TGWi> what does insubstantial do? I've been speaking from flavor
05:02 <+doy> i'd be alright with moving insubstantial wisps off of p
05:02 <+due> There aren't many other insubstantials.
05:02 <+due> doy: Sure.
05:02 < TGWi> is that the sticky flame thing?
05:02 <+due> but what do?
05:02 <+due> TGWi: Nets, sticky flame
05:02 <+doy> TGWi: among other things
05:02 <+due> TGWi: Some other spells, I forget what.
05:02 < TGWi> so, all p except phantom?
05:02 < TGWi> @??spectral warrior
05:02 < Gretell> spectral warrior (W) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 27-72 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 18(drain) | Flags: undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(72), cold, poison | XP: 541.
05:03 <+doy> i think everything on # and { should be changed, probably
05:03 <+due> doy: Agree, clouds ar eenogh as it is.
05:03 <+doy> that's just pointless interface confusion
05:03 < TGWi> we could go the other way and assign all elemental-types to v
05:03 <+doy> so how about v for insubstantial wisps, vapours, etc
05:03 <+due> doy: I like that.
05:03 < TGWi> high five doy
05:03 <+doy> and p for shadows
05:04 <+due> We could move all elementals to 'v', too, I suppose.
05:04 < Eronarn> why not to E
05:04 <+due> We'd have to move efreeti off.
05:04 <+doy> yeah, we could move efreets elsewhere
05:04 < TGWi> is efreet moving?
05:04 <+doy> R maybe
05:04 < ogaz> I was thinking e, but same idea
05:04 < Eronarn> e is elves
05:04 < TGWi> also what about raks
05:04 <+due> 'E' is to big, thoguh.
05:04 <+doy> efreets to R, elementals to E
05:04 < ogaz> oh, right
05:04 <+due> elementals are kinda naff.
05:04 <+due> I don't want to move rakshasas off R.
05:04 < TGWi> v could be for vapours, vortices
05:04 <+doy> (weren't we going to use R for non-demon demonic monsters?)
05:04 < Eronarn> TGWi: dwar[v]es
05:04 < TGWi> eronarn: lol
05:04 < Eronarn> doy: that was my suggestion, yes
05:05 < TGWi> what other glyphs are unused
05:05 < TGWi> Qi?
05:05 <+doy> so make R rakshasas and efreets
05:05 < Eronarn> `
05:05 <+due> Which doesn't work, because our rakshasa are demons.
05:05 < Eronarn> ~
05:05 <+doy> due: non-numbered-demon demonic
05:05 < Eronarn> vapours as ~ would work well i think
05:05 < TGWi> couldn't you assign a tier to raks
05:05 <+due> Can't use ~, unless we fully dump submerging.
05:05 <+doy> you know what i mean
05:05 < ogaz> huh, there really is no good glyph for dwarves
05:05 <+due> ogaz: 'v' works well.
05:05 < TGWi> use 'e'
05:05 <+doy> TGWi: e is too full
05:05 <+due> 'e' would be too confusing.
05:05 < Eronarn> due: there are only like... two vortexes, one proposed. ~ would work fine with limited colors
05:05 <+due> They're currently on @.
05:06 < TGWi> make dwarves replace ALL elves!
05:06 <+due> Eronarn: Yeah, but it's used to denote invisible monsters in clouds as well.
05:06 <+doy> Eronarn: don't really like monster glyphs overlapping with dungeon feature glyphs
05:06 <+due> It's more of amultipurpose feature glyph than a monster glyph.
05:06 < Eronarn> anyways, i like * for vortexes better than v
05:06 <+due> I'm goin got move vapours to 'v', for the minute.
05:06 <+due> For 0.6.
05:06 <+doy> Eronarn: could work too
05:06 <+due> Which is apparently coming out next month.
05:06 <+doy> due: that sounds good
05:06 < Eronarn> a vortex hanging in midair doesn't look appreciably different from an orb
05:06 <+doy> due: heh
05:06 < Eronarn> they're both swirly energy balls
05:06 <+doy> i give it two months at least
05:07 <+doy> due: vapours and insub wisps to v
05:07 <+due> Okay.
05:07 <+doy> shadows to p
05:07 <+due> I'm just going to go ahead and make the changes.
05:07 < Eronarn> but i'd favor this in particular because it frees up v
05:07 <+due> darkgrey p?
05:07 <+doy> due: no darkgrey monsters
05:07 <+due> Hm.
05:07 <+due> blue p is already taken for phantoms.
05:07 <+due> magenta p.
05:07 < TGWi> phantoms aren't insubstantial, are they?
05:08 <+doy> due: darkred?
05:08 < Eronarn> they should be if they aren't, imo
05:08 < TGWi> darkred p is flayed ghost?
05:08 < TGWi> @??flayed ghost
05:08 < Gretell> flayed ghost (p) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 0/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: undead, evil, lev | Res: magic(58), poison | XP: 719.
05:08 <+doy> TGWi: oh
05:08 <+doy> forgot about that one
05:08 <+doy> phantoms are insubstantial
05:08 < Eronarn> why do we have both W and p, anyways
05:08 <+doy> all current p are insubstantial
05:08 <+due> I like magenta p,
05:08 < TGWi> you can sticky flame phantoms, can't you?
05:08 < TGWi> ??monsters
05:08 < Henzell> monsters[1/1]: Type @?monstername in this channel (or in a PM to Gretell), or see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/crawl_ss_monsters_by_name.html If you want to see the stats of a monster in trunk, use @?? instead of @?
05:09 < TGWi> ??phantom
05:09 < ogaz> not in 0.6
05:09 < Henzell> phantom[1/1]: A ghost that is the same sort of bastard blinker as an imp. Has more AC and hits harder, but doesnt regen like an imp and cant use weapons or armour. Unlike most ghosts, sticky flame adheres to phantoms.
05:09 < TGWi> oh ok
05:09 <+doy> due: magenta is usually used for more dangerous monsters
05:09 <+due> Hm.
05:09 <+doy> TGWi: we recently went through and made the insubstantial monster list more sane
05:09 <+due> cyan?
05:09 < ogaz> darkgrey would be perfect if monsters were allowed to be darkgrey
05:09 <+doy> due: cyan sounds good
05:10 <+due> ogaz: Yeah, no darkgrey.
05:10 <+due> I went with magenta because shadow imps are magenta.
05:10 <+doy> hmmm, i suppose
05:10 < TGWi> also, can butterflies be excluded from both greys?
05:10 <+due> As are shadow demons.
05:11 < TGWi> darkgrey is apparently bad and lightgrey looks like bats
05:11 <+due> TGWi: Kinda difficult at the minute.
05:11 < TGWi> oh?
05:11 <+doy> TGWi: that would be a good idea, but yeah, not sure how hard it would be
05:11 <+due> We'd need to create a new monster-only random colour that restricts using darkgrey and black.
05:11 < TGWi> didn't someone do that with Yiuf?
05:11 <+due> No
05:11 <+due> I was goin gto, but it was to omuch fuss.
05:11 <+doy> excluding dark grey would be easier i think
05:11 <+due> doy: All the "shadow" creatures are magenta.
05:11 <+doy> due: sounds good then
05:11 <+due> We could just make it pick again if it gets darkgrey.
05:11 <+doy> due: right
05:14 <+due> I should do that.
05:15 <+due> We've only elementals on # and { now.
05:15 <+doy> efreets to R, elementals to E
05:16 <+due> I'm not going to FR this, just going to push.
05:16 <+due> I don't think it'll be issueous.
05:16 <+sorear> moving elementals to E?
05:16  * sorear makes sad puppy eyes at due
05:17 <+due> sorear: No, not touching E.
05:17 <+due> sorear: Can you update @?? ? I can't remember how to :(
05:17 <+doy> why not? i think the elemental glyphs are some of the most problematic
05:17 < TGWi> @??alligator
05:17 < Gretell> alligator (t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(48) | XP: 962 | Sp: swiftness.
05:17 < TGWi> @??crocodile
05:17 < Gretell> crocodile (t) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(20) | XP: 104.
05:17 <+due> doy: But the most contentious.
05:17 <+sorear> due: I did it once by accident
05:17 <+due> sorear: Bah.
05:17 <+sorear> due: I don't *actually* know how to either
05:17 <+due> Okay.
05:18 <+due> I'm pretty sure I just have to update the crawl-ref copy and then run the makefile...
05:18 <+doy> due: who's being contentious about them?
05:18 <+due> doy: me ;)
05:18 <+doy> d:
05:18 <+due> doy: I don't like elementals on E.
05:18 <+doy> why not?
05:18 <+due> Because elementals aren't particularly threatening.
05:18 <+due> And E is a ncie and big glyph.
05:19 <+due> Ah, looks like i tis updating. Hooray!
05:19 <+doy> i'd rather make elementals more threatening(:
05:19 <+doy> but that's a bigger change, i suppose
05:19 <+due> Hm, true.
05:19 <+due> Did nobody notice the buff I gave sea snakes? :)
05:20 <+due> It confuses me that we go from sorted by glyph to sorted by type at the end of mon-data.h
05:21 <+due> @??alligator
05:21 < Gretell> alligator (t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30, 15 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(48) | XP: 1089 | Sp: swiftness.
05:21 <+due> Better.
05:21 <+due> @??sea snake
05:21 < Gretell> sea snake (S) | Speed: 12 (swim: 40%) | HD: 10 | Health: 40-90 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 24(strong poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 755.
05:21 <+due> Just need greensnark to do the timidity thing :D
05:23 <+due> It's so nice to put people on ignore.
05:23 < Eronarn> due: B? S? H?
05:24 <+due> B? S? H?
05:24 < Eronarn> "it's not scary" is not a reason not to use a cap glyph
05:24 <+due> Ah.
05:24 < TGWi> K is less scary than k too
05:24 < Eronarn> heck, W
05:24 <+doy> S is scary
05:24 <+doy> (:
05:24 < TGWi> of course, Ks are way bigger
05:24 <+due> S and H are quite scary, iin my mind.
05:24 < TGWi> and S is way scarier than s
05:24 <+doy> most S are pretty dangerous when you first meet them
05:24 < TGWi> and H than h
05:24 <+doy> but yeah, B is pretty underwhelming
05:24 <+doy> also, e, t
05:24 < TGWi> what's b for?
05:24 < Eronarn> i'm not against "bigger=tougher", mind you
05:24 <+doy> are pretty scary
05:25 <+due> batty things.
05:25 < Eronarn> just... we aren't doing it right now
05:25 < TGWi> oh right
05:25 < TGWi> yeah those are a bit less scary :P
05:25 <+due> Eronarn: But I see no reason why we should keep not doing it now. ;)
05:25 <+due> Oh, what about I?
05:25 < Eronarn> due: because if we're going to constrain ourselves in design that way, we should redesign things that violate those constraints
05:25 < TGWi> ilemental
05:25 < ogaz> are there any I other than Ice Beast?
05:25 <+due> No, I mean.
05:25 <+due> What about ice beasts?
05:25 < TGWi> oh
05:25 <+due> They're the only thing on it.
05:25 < TGWi> hrm
05:26 < TGWi> well nobody knows what they look like
05:26 < ogaz> also, ice beasts are fairly formidable when you first run into them
05:26 <+due> ogaz: agree.
05:26 < Eronarn> ice beasts could be E just fine
05:26 <+due> TGWi: Apparently they're some sort of hybrid dog thing, according to the tile.
05:26 < Eronarn> [E]lementals and related creatures
05:26 < TGWi> are the tiles online somewhere?
05:26 <+due> TGWi: Yes, just linking.
05:26 < TGWi> ok
05:26 < TGWi> "h" is kind of stupid for ice beasts, however
05:26 <+doy> Eronarn: if we move ice beasts to E, no reason to not keep efreets there
05:26 < TGWi> especially since white h is taken
05:26 <+due> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?page_id=214
05:27 < Eronarn> doy: ...?!
05:27 <+due> Hm
05:27 <+doy> TGWi: that looks more like a bear to me
05:27 < TGWi> oh wow, that site is great
05:27 <+due> Ice beasts might work on Y.
05:27 <+due> Or U.
05:27 <+due> But then overlap with polar bears.
05:27 <+doy> i don't think ice beasts should be moved to any 'natural animal' glyph though
05:27 <+doy> because they really aren't
05:28 < TGWi> uh, aren't ice beasts humanoid?
05:28 <+due> agree
05:28 < TGWi> ??ice form
05:28 < Henzell> ice form[1/1]: +20% hp, no weapons or armour save cloaks, -fire, +++cold, +pois, +5-12 AC (and additional bonus from synergy with {ozocubu's armour} ), +10,+9 slaying w/ freezing brand.
05:28 <+due> I like ice beasts on 8, personally.
05:28 < Eronarn> "kind of like a yak, but with a shaggy coat of icicles and much bigger claws"
05:28 < TGWi> oh, cloaks only
05:28 < TGWi> nevermind
05:28 <+due> Or 9.
05:28 < Eronarn> ice gargoyles :D
05:28 < TGWi> 8 looks like a snowman
05:28 <+doy> due: that could work
05:28 < Eronarn> hm...
05:28 <+doy> either 8 or 9
05:28 < Eronarn> 8 = humanoid constructs, 9 = monstrous "constructs"?
05:28 <+due> It would free up another glyph.
05:29 <+due> But I don't think I'll get away with making those changes without an FR and discussion.
05:29 < ogaz> are 9 and 6 used at all?
05:29 <+due> So, I'm going to commit these
05:29 <+due> ogaz: 6 and 7 aren't, 9 are.
05:29 <+due> @??gargoyle
05:29 < Gretell> gargoyle (9) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 18/6 | Damage: 10, 6, 6 | Flags: non-living, fly | Res: magic(32), elec++, poison | XP: 140.
05:29 < Eronarn> - the only thin to think of is that ice beasts are living things
05:29 < TGWi> 9 is gargoyles hi due
05:29 < ogaz> oh right
05:29 <+doy> ogaz: 9 are gargoyles, 6 are going to be demonspawn eventually
05:29 < Eronarn> currently
05:29 < ogaz> due: 7 is trees now
05:29 <+doy> and 7 are trees
05:29 <+doy> 8 are golems
05:29 <+doy> 0 is unused, but potentially confusable with O
05:30 <+due> and the orb, after all.
05:30 < Eronarn> imo, E for elementals, efreet => R (malevolent spirits), ice beast => E
05:30 < TGWi> don't most fonts have a slashed zero?
05:30 <+doy> due: oh, right
05:30 < Eronarn> vortexes => *
05:30 <+due> Giant spores -> *, also.
05:30 <+doy> Eronarn: agree with everything there, except ice beast -> 9
05:30 <+doy> due: yes, that
05:31 <+doy> along with removing giant spores from spawning in slime
05:31 < Eronarn> doy: well, i think there it's a question of
05:31 < Eronarn> what the heck *IS* an ice beast
05:31 <+due> Hm
05:31 < Eronarn> is it more of an elemental-y thing, a natural thing but made of ice, etc.
05:31 <+doy> well, ice statues can create ice beasts
05:31 <+due> doy: Agree, to be honest, I don't think they should.
05:31 < TGWi> doy: they can summon ice beasts
05:31 <+due> (re: spores)
05:31 < TGWi> doesn't mean anything
05:31 < Eronarn> also, i don't like giant spores to * "just because they explode", really
05:31 <+due> Eronarn: Them being on 'G' makes less sense.
05:31 < TGWi> eronarn: they don't fit in with G at all
05:32 < TGWi> at all
05:32 <+doy> Eronarn: G is 'eyes' everywhere else
05:32 <+due> 'They're a ... type of eyeball.';
05:32 < Eronarn> holy shit i didn't say to keep themo n G aaaaaaaaa
05:32 < TGWi> creepiest fungi ever!
05:32 <+due> They explode more in common with * than they have eyes ll over them with G.
05:32 < Eronarn> i'd want them on f
05:32 <+doy> Eronarn: meh
05:32 <+due> meh.
05:32 < TGWi> confusing with ballistos
05:32 <+doy> f and P are immobile
05:32 < TGWi> well no it isn't
05:32 < TGWi> haha but confusing with f in general
05:32 < Eronarn> TGWi: it's all in color
05:32 <+due> "mon_glyph = shadow : black " ""???
05:33 < TGWi> due: what?
05:33 < Kil2> anyone else think it would be cool if fedhas sunlight killed vampires instantly? =)
05:33 < TGWi> also they're pretty clearly smaller than fungi
05:33 < TGWi> kil2: no
05:33 < Eronarn> ...when has that ever influenced glyph
05:33 < TGWi> it already makes them sparkle
05:33 < Eronarn> ever
05:33 < Eronarn> steam dragons are smaller than humans iirc
05:33 <+due> Does anyone know if that  works?
05:33 <+due> Kil2: Too overpowered.
05:34 < ogaz> what about sunlight damaging vampires at the end of their turns?
05:34 <+doy> due: 'black' means some sort of elemental-type color, doesn't it?
05:34 < Eronarn> well, anyways. i don't particularly care where ice beast ends up as long as it makes sense
05:34 <+doy> or is that just internally
05:34 <+due> doy: Hm, I'm not sure.
05:34 < Eronarn> in their undefined-ish state, E and 9 both equally don't make sense
05:34 < ogaz> wait, sunlight isn't actually stationary, right?
05:34 <+due> doy: MY issue is how to represent the lack of glyph.
05:34 <+due> ogaz: Not yet.
05:34 <+doy> due: _
05:35 < Eronarn> things i am more interested in: what'll happen to Q, q, I, v
05:35 < TGWi> doy: AAH WHY IS MY ALTAR MOVING
05:35 <+doy> i have "mon_glyph = _ : p" in my rc
05:35 <+doy> which reglyphs shadows
05:35 <+due> Ah, thanks.
05:35 < ogaz> Eronarn: I'd almost like to just leave them until we want to replace them
05:35 <+due> It treats "#" as a comment.
05:36 <+doy> due: and i'm pretty sure that if you don't also recolor shadows, it'll make them flip between white and blue or something
05:36 <+due> Aaaawkward.
05:36 < TGWi> can you escape waffles?
05:36 <+doy> which i think is because they use BLACK internally as their color
05:36 <+due> doy: Yeah, darkgrey..
05:37 <+due> Argh, why does linking take forever and a day?
05:37 < Eronarn> Import has been successfully finished, 9511 queries executed.
05:37 < Eronarn> phew
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05:37 <+due> Still linking.
05:38  * due links arms with doy, dances.
05:38 <+due> Oh, issue
05:38 <+due> vapours and air elementals on 'v' at the minute, for this commit, share colour.
05:38 <+due> @??vapour
05:38 < Gretell> vapour (#) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 24-60 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Flags: non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(immune), elec+++, poison | XP: 901 | Sp: b.lightning.
05:38 <+due> should we make vapours white?
05:38 <+doy> yes
05:38 <+doy> or lightcyan
05:39 <+due> ooh, lightcyan
05:39 <+due> Also, insubstantial wisps are also lightgrey.
05:39 <+due> bah.
05:39 < ogaz> could just leave the glyphs untouched until we actually want to add monsters
05:39 <+doy> air elementals should be white
05:39 <+due> ogaz: Nah.
05:40 < ogaz> due: why not?
05:40 < TGWi> ogaz: we can shuffle around the glyphs without rest
05:40 < TGWi> does that work too?
05:40 < ogaz> :effort:
05:40 <+due> ogaz: Because it's easier to do it right now, and have a free glypht to suggest a monster, than to create a monster and have everyone go "but "X" already has "YZ"! no way!"
05:41 <+due> Also, the glyphs are currently confusing and non-uniform.
05:41 <+due> doy: Also, mu keeps saying that your logs have stopped.
05:41 <+doy> oh really
05:41 <+doy> hmmm
05:41 <+doy> i really should make Ashenzari handle the logging, it would make things a lot easier
05:42 <+due> yes
05:43 < TGWi> maybe you should distribute the glyphs as evenly as possible so you have an excuse to not implement monsters
05:45 <+due> no :)
05:49 <+due> @??vapour
05:49 < Gretell> vapour (#) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 24-60 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Flags: non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(immune), elec+++, poison | XP: 901 | Sp: b.lightning.
05:51 <+due> @??shadow
05:51 < Gretell> shadow ( ) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 5(drain strength) | Flags: undead, evil, see invisible | Res: magic(20), cold+++, poison | XP: 28.
05:53 <+due> http://sprunge.us/BdRa
05:53 < Eronarn> TGWi: new policy: all glyphs must be shared by at least 12 monsters
05:53 <+due> Can I get some comments before I push?
05:55 < TGWi> are vortices insubstantial;?
05:56 <+due> Yes.
05:56 < TGWi> just making sure
05:56 <+due> All 'v' ar einsubstantial, I double checked this ":)
05:56 <+due> (though I just triple checked now after doubting myself)
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05:59 <+doy> test
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06:00 <+due> you borked it (:
06:00 <+due> poor ashenzari :(
06:01 < TGWi> due: jude brown is a recommended search on google
06:01 < TGWi> just thought I'd let you know
06:03 <+due> Still linking ;(
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06:06 <+doy> test
06:06 <+due> Okay, yiuf will never be darkgrey!
06:06 <+due> Neither will abominations or other BLACk monsters.
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06:10 <+doy> test
06:10 <+due> Hey, maybe we could rename crocodiles as dwarf crocodiles.
06:10 <+due> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_crocodile
06:10 < TGWi> hell yeah we could
06:11 <+due> Bit too wimpy a name, but cuuuuute.
06:11 < TGWi> and alligators -> giant dwarf crocodiles!
06:11 <+due> They're still one of the biggest early game threats.
06:11 <+due> No.
06:11 < TGWi> :P
06:11 <+due> !killsby giant lizard
06:11 < Henzell> 461 games for * (ckiller=giant lizard): 9x 78291, 8x yap, 6x sorear, 6x dpeg, 5x Archibald, 5x Nexos, 5x simul, 5x nmf, 5x mercury, 5x crawlie, 4x rob, 4x Lemuel, 4x neleai, 4x Ping, 4x Eifeltrampel, 4x Tityrus, 4x IronRobin, 4x tcircuits, 4x Pacra, 4x poop, 4x daftfad, 4x mr0t, 4x heteroy, 3x bookofjude, 3x thevalrus, 3x earlybird, 3x ronf, 3x Johan, 3x jeykey, 3x coweater, 3x TAS2012, 3x clouded...
06:11 <+due> Anyway, nobody is commenting on my commit?
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06:12 < TGWi> http://www.lpzoo.org/animals/images/facts/dwarf_crocodile.jpg
06:12 < TGWi> aww
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06:12 <+doy> test
06:12 < TGWi> http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/jerry_gingerich/10wafricandwarfcroc-1alt.jpg/medium.jpg and I'm done
06:13 <+due> omg awww <3
06:13 < TGWi> are there any adorably ugly animals that start with q?
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06:13 <+doy> test
06:14 <+due> quokka.
06:15 < TGWi> quail
06:15 < TGWi> holy shit quail
06:15 < TGWi> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Brown_Quail_Dayboro_Feb06.jpg
06:15 <+due> mmmm, lunchy
06:16 < TGWi> does crawl have any birds?
06:17 <+due> not really
06:17 < ogaz> birds don't make a lot of sense in a dungeon
06:17 <+due> it will have phoenixes.
06:17 < TGWi> quokka
06:17 < TGWi> erm
06:17 < TGWi> kenku
06:17 < TGWi> why did I say quokka?
06:17 <+due> You're obsessed.
06:18 < ogaz> do butterflies spawn in shoals? maybe they can be replaced with seagulls, if they do
06:18 <+due> <3 excellent idea.
06:18 < TGWi> indeed
06:19 <+due> Okay
06:19 <+due> nomore darkgrey randoms
06:19 <+due> happy, TGWi?
06:19 < TGWi> with regards to random colours, yeah
06:26 <+due> doy: did you read the commit messags?
06:27 <+doy> due: busy at the moment, give me a minute
06:27 <+due> Okay
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06:33 <+doy> test
06:33  * doy test
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06:35 <+doy> test
06:35 <+doy> okay
06:35 <+doy> logging is back up, and using ashenzari
06:36 <+doy> which means it's a lot more flexible now
06:36 <+due> hooray
06:36 <+doy> but possibly more buggy, so let me know if there are issues
06:36 <+due> Okay
06:36 <+due> Need a relink for the commit message?
06:37 <+doy> nope, got it
06:38 <+doy> due: looks good to me
06:39 <+due> Okay, here goes nothing.
06:39 <+doy> also: logs should now be rotated daily
06:39 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-101-70-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
06:39 <+doy> which should help people who were complaining about monthly logs getting too big
06:39 <+due> Hooray
06:39 < CIA-81> due * r20efee2c8b00 /crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Don't let Mara summon a player ghost while the player is out of LOS.
06:39 < CIA-81> due * r494db5b6afa0 /crawl-ref/ (settings/052_monster_glyphs.txt source/mon-data.h): A few further (simple) glyph and colour changes.
06:39 < CIA-81> due * r58955c4e673e /crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc mon-util.cc mon-util.h): Don't hand out darkgrey to 'BLACK' monsters. (TGW)
06:40 <+due> TGWi: Your name! In lights!
06:41 < TGWi> I am not fond of daily logs
06:41 < TGWi> makes it harder to search for stuff
06:47 <+doy> heh, doesn't like mirc color codes
06:47  * doy is lazy though
06:47 <+doy> deal with it later
06:49 <+due> Wooohooo, gummy babies.
06:49 <+doy> hmmm, now to see about getting my private logs back up and running...
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06:49 -!- doy [n=doy@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
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06:50 < henryci> I'm in the abyss (in .5) and I see a potion of paralysis on the same tile as a rock wall.
06:50 < TGWi> dig the wall to get to the potion
06:50 <+due> That's odd.
06:51 <+doy> oh hmmm, looks like they'd already fixed themselves on their own last night
06:51 < henryci> well the potion isn't interesting, it's the bug I'm curious about.
06:51 <+doy> oh well!
06:51 <+doy> henryci: the abyss has *all kinds* of dumb bugs like that
06:51 <+doy> from what i hear, the code is an absolute mess
06:51 < henryci> how is item generation done, is it done in the same pass as level generation?
06:52 <+doy> no idea
06:52 <+due> I've never even looked at it.
06:52 <+due> Too scary.
06:52  * doy points henryci at abyss.cc
06:52 <+doy> have fun
06:52 <+due> henryci: try generate_abyss. :)
06:54 <+due> hey cool
06:54 < henryci> ohh, learned that Xom rewards you for hanging out next to the exit until it disappears.
06:54 <+due> It never actually checks to see what type of feature it places the item on
06:54 <+due> maybe we should fix that
06:54 <+due> Oh wait, it does. Hm.
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06:57 < henryci> due where are you seeing that?
06:57 <+doy> henryci: abyss.cc:250
06:58 <+doy> it seems to set the tile explicitly to DNGN_FLOOR before even attempting to place an item
06:59 < henryci> ohh tricky, I missed that b/c I was looking for a comparison.
06:59 <+due> yeah