00:00 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:00 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v pointless_] by ChanServ
00:06 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-165-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
00:06  * greensnark feels a yearning for SVG tiles
00:06 <+greensnark> Can we have SVG tiles? :D
00:06 < Cryp71c> SVG?
00:06 <+doy> do you want to draw them?
00:06 <+doy> d:
00:06 <+doy> Cryp71c: vector graphics format
00:06 <+greensnark> doy: I wish I could :P
00:07 <+greensnark> I've been looking at tiles using Napkin's search
00:07 <+greensnark> And while they're pretty, I wish I had hi-res images :)
00:08 < Cryp71c> ohh tiles
00:08 < Cryp71c> thought you said 'titles'
00:09 <+greensnark> Wesnoth got some neat pictures for the main characters in the title campaign
00:09 <+greensnark> When I first tried Wesnoth they had upscaled tiles for portraits, and it looked awful :)
00:16 < Cryp71c> ??git
00:16 < Henzell> git[1/1]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref
00:18 < Cryp71c> Hrm, I'm pretty sure I've removed teleportation and blink without affecting the evokable / scroll stuff...I guess i'll test it tomorrow.
00:22 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
00:23 <+due> Boo.
00:24 <+greensnark> Morning due
00:24 <+due> Boo./sb end
00:24 <+due> sb end
00:24 <+due> Argh.
00:24 <+due> Stupid scrollback.
00:24 <+greensnark> On the exterior surface of your choice
00:24 <+due> :)
00:24 <+greensnark> I see you haven't had your tea yet :P
00:24 <+due> Did I miss any more mummy rargh?
00:24 <+due> And no, I haven't.
00:25 <+greensnark> There was some more mummy discussion, yes
00:25 <+pointless_> But did it involve rargh? 
00:26 <+due> There was a lot of rargh lastnight.
00:26 <+greensnark> rargh is a nebulous, hard to grasp thing
00:27 <+due> Well, it was rargh-y to the point that I decided to go to sleep because I was feeling stressed and I wasn't even involved in the conversation.
00:28 <+greensnark> Also: you have email
00:28 <+due> Yes, I saw, thank you!
00:28 <+greensnark> haben sind gewesen gehabt haben geworden sein
00:30 <+greensnark> And that is an authentic Mark Twain quote to start your day :P
00:30 <+due> Nein, Ich spreche Kein Deutsch!
00:31 <+due> greensnark: But anyway, thanks very much. :)
00:31 <+greensnark> Anyone who hasn't should read: http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html
00:31 <+greensnark> Mark Twain on the German language <3
00:32 <+due> Surely this is verboten in this channel? ;)
00:32 <+greensnark> dpeg likes it :)
00:33  * due grins.
00:36 <+due> Oh, I see the OOD spawns have changed.
00:36 <+due> This seem to make much more sense.
00:42 <+due> I am special enough to be mentioned twice in dpeg's emails, hooray!
00:44 < bhaak> lol
00:44 <+doy> yes, i managed to knock some sense into people when i woke up
00:44 <+doy> d:
00:44 < bhaak> are you sure? due is a regular english word :)
00:45 <+due> bhaak: No, "Jude, Jude and me". :)
00:45 <+due> doy: Yes, good, good. It was going a little bit crazy last night.
00:46 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:46 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
00:46 <@dpeg> cheers
00:46 <+due> dpeg! You mentioned me in your email twice, am I that special? ;)
00:46 <@dpeg> !seen greensnark 
00:46 < Henzell> I last saw greensnark at Thu Jan 21 23:32:36 2010 UTC (14m 21s ago) saying dpeg likes it :) on ##crawl-dev.
00:47 <@dpeg> due: yes, you are
00:47 <+due> :D
00:47 <@dpeg> greensnark: hey, what do I like?
00:47 <+due> http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html
00:47 <@dpeg> greensnark: very good commit message, by the way.
00:47 <+due> dpeg: Also good email, makes a lot of sense.
00:47 <@dpeg> I would really like the AC/EV change commit message to be as long.
00:48 <@dpeg> due: thank you. I thought I owed this to the developers not on ##crawl-dev.
00:48 <+due> Hey, what about my awesome long ranged combat commit messages? ;)
00:48 <@dpeg> due: they were very good :)
00:48 <+due> :D
00:48 <+due> Okay, breakfast.
00:48 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rfc94cdceddd0 /crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Fix post-mortem inventory sometimes not being browsable.
00:49 < Ashenzari> ballistomycete messages should be less literal (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=499) by Lemuel
01:00 <+due> greensnark: So, my code was relatively stable, except for not actually setting up the table in Lua, and not pushing the items at location into a tablle?
01:02 <+greensnark> Yes
01:02 <+greensnark> Although you're using pointers to items, so if you hold on to them in Lua and then rearrange the items on that square, the pointers will no longer be valid
01:03 <+greensnark> I'm assuming you wanted actual references to the items so you can modify them from Lua
01:03 <+greensnark> In which case using pointers is fine
01:03 <+greensnark> If you want copies of the items you'll have to tweak the code
01:03 <+greensnark> Also: Donald splat
01:03 <+greensnark> !lg * killer=Donald 
01:03 < Henzell> 11. saren the Carver (L10 HEPa), worshipper of The Shining One, demolished by Donald (a +3,+5 long sword of flaming) on Orc:1 on 2010-01-22, with 5319 points after 10777 turns and 0:57:36.
01:04 <+greensnark> Possibly someone who expected the old Donald :P
01:05 <+due> !!!!
01:05 <+due> <3
01:05 <+due> However, Donald shouldn't show up on Orc:1.
01:06 <+pointless_> @?? donald
01:06 < Gretell> Donald (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 84 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 26 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(93) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2423.
01:06 <+pointless_> donald is amphibious? 
01:07 <+greensnark> Of course :P
01:07 <+due> He can swim.
01:07 <+greensnark> Donald the ducktaur :P
01:07 <+doy> due: why?
01:07 <+due> doy: Because greensnark said so?
01:07 <+due> (I get to pin this all on you, greensnark.)
01:07 <+greensnark> :P
01:07 <+doy> the player can't swim
01:08 <+doy> why should donald be able to?
01:08 <+greensnark> Donald is not the player :P
01:08 <+due> "Unlike you, he can swim."
01:08 <+doy> ??donald
01:08 < Henzell> donald[1/2]: He is a fellow adventurer, just like you, but different in that he can't fight to save his life.
01:08 <+due> Part of it is power creep, actually; he shows up in Slime and Swamp, I didn't want people to just confuse him to death in water.
01:08 < Zannick> why can't the player swim?
01:08 <+due> ??donald[2]
01:08 < Henzell> donald[2/2]: This has been changed in trunk. He is now between orc knights and warlords in terms of danger, amphibious, and more resistant to magic. Loves his wands, and is much more proficient with them now!
01:09 <+due> greensnark: It works! :D
01:09 <+doy> i don't like that logic, really
01:09 <+greensnark> This is subjective again :P
01:09 <+greensnark> So yeah, someone has to make the decision :P
01:10 <+due> He's blue, his name is Donald, and he swims.
01:10 <+doy> that's the same sort of thing that leads to giving out silence immunity to random monsters because silence is overpowered
01:10 <+due> I think it's amusing and that some people wlil get a laugh out of it.
01:10 <+doy> for no real reason other than "well, they'll be too easy!"
01:10 <+doy> i don't think we should start down that road with amphibiousness
01:10 <+due> True. It can go, I'm not really attached to it.
01:10 <+greensnark> It's not like we're giving amphibiousness to all uniques, come on
01:10 <+due> Primary reason was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Duck
01:11 < Timbermaw> can't you just say he's a duck?
01:11 <+due> Timbermaw: No.
01:11 <+due> Timbermaw: David will shoot us.
01:11 <+doy> greensnark: we didn't give silence immunity or see invis to all uniques either, doesn't make the point less valid
01:11 <+greensnark> Disney still has copyright + trademark and stuff, as well
01:11 <+greensnark> doy: Actually, it just means you don't like it :)
01:11 <+greensnark> Because there is otherwise no resemblance :P
01:11 <+doy> sure there is
01:12 <@dpeg> now I read Twain again :O
01:12 <+greensnark> Ok, it's like this
01:12 <+pointless_> dpeg: So you played a Fedhas game? 
01:12 <+greensnark> If this is a serious problem, convince dpeg and if he says it should be eliminated, we will
01:12 <+greensnark> Because there are a million of these subjective details
01:12 <+greensnark> And we can wrangle about it forever :P
01:13  * due gives greensnark title "Ducktaur Wrangler".
01:13 <+greensnark> I happen to think amphibious Donald is cute, although it will probably never make a huge difference
01:13  * dpeg loads the gun.
01:14 <+due> We could make him amphibious IFF the player is merfolk.
01:14 <+greensnark> Donald the doppelganger? :D
01:14 <@dpeg> I don't see the problem with swimming Donald. We're talking about a unique, not a monster.
01:14 <+doy> also, what makes donald more deserving of being protected from drowning, compared to, say, rupert, or margery?
01:14 <+doy> shrug
01:14 <+sorear> that's Mara's schtick
01:14 <+greensnark> doy: Donald Duck reference, man!
01:14 <+greensnark> That's all there is to it
01:14 <+doy> guess i'm in the minority here d:
01:14 <+due> Primary donald duck reference!
01:14 <+due> Lame non-drowning is just a side point.
01:15 <+due> We could make him drown if confused though.
01:15 <@dpeg> should mention it in the description
01:15 <@dpeg> no!
01:15 <+greensnark> Non-drowning is not even on my radar :P
01:15 <+due> "He is too confused to swim thus drowns."
01:15 <+greensnark> Donald will just die anyway :P
01:15 <+due> dpeg: It is mentioned.
01:15 <@dpeg> cool!
01:15 <+greensnark> He's still not strong enough for a vanilla melee unique :)
01:15 <+due> !lg * killer=Donald -1
01:15 < Henzell> 11. saren the Carver (L10 HEPa), worshipper of The Shining One, demolished by Donald (a +3,+5 long sword of flaming) on Orc:1 on 2010-01-22, with 5319 points after 10777 turns and 0:57:36.
01:15 <+due> !lg * killer=Donald -2
01:15 < Henzell> 10. Sebi the Infuser (L7 DEEn), blasted by Donald (wand of lightning) on D:12 on 2009-09-29, with 1127 points after 9029 turns and 1:52:23.
01:15 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, on Fedhas
01:15 < Twinge> Donald the Ducktaur should remain ampbious imo.
01:15 <@dpeg> @whereis
01:15 < Gretell> dpeg the Shooter (L5 CeHu) saved on D:2 on 2010-01-20 after 3247 turns.
01:15 <+due> He's still hilariously cool.
01:15 <+due> His speech makes me <3.
01:15 <@dpeg> oh, game before
01:15 <+due> dpeg: you're scumming a centaur on D:2? Shame on you!
01:15 <@dpeg> XL 16 KeFE
01:15 <+due> ;)
01:16 <+pointless_> dpeg: any opinion on growth bonus HP - too high/too low? 
01:16 <@dpeg> pointless_: I don't know -- I only used Growth to get oklobs
01:17 < Twinge> Make new Donald's min-depth 13 then?
01:17 <@dpeg> pointless_: but Fedhas is on a very good, many thanks
01:17 <+due> greensnark: Oh: what was the monster_set accessor for in l_mons? I'm assuming I don't need one for dItems?
01:17 <+due> Twinge: He isn't set-up like that.
01:17 <@dpeg> pointless_: +way
01:17 <+due> DEPTH:  Swamp, Snake, Shoal, Slime, Crypt:1-4, Blade, Elf:2-6, Orc:3-4
01:17 <+due> I think Orc:3, Orc:4 is reasoonable.
01:17 <+pointless_> dpeg: Do you like the current evolution interface? I was thinking about switching to single target smite targeted 
01:17 <@dpeg> pointless_: yes, it's very good
01:17 <+greensnark> due: He's actually fine in Orc:1
01:17 <+greensnark> He's a melee unique that's not especially fast
01:18 <+due> He's pretty weak though.
01:18 <+due> @??donald
01:18 < Gretell> Donald (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 84 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 26 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(93) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2423.
01:18 <+greensnark> The only way to get killed by him is to completely uderestimate him
01:18 <+due> Yeah.
01:18 <+due> You can easily escape from him as well.
01:18 <@dpeg> pointless_: oh wait, I didn't get to using Evolution :/
01:18 <+greensnark> @??orc warrior
01:18 < Gretell> orc warrior (o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 16-40 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 20 | Res: magic(16) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 133.
01:18 <+greensnark> Just 6 more damage than an orc warrior
01:18 <+pointless_> dpeg: THen how did you make the oklobs? 
01:18 <+due> Also, what is it with my obsession of making HP a multiple of 42?
01:18 <+greensnark> You mad Aussies are all the same :P
01:18 -!- hashc [n=hash@adsl-68-76-123-64.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
01:18 <@dpeg> pointless_: Growth + Growth?
01:19 <+greensnark> Apparently the number 3 is tattooed into your brainstems at birth, or something? :P
01:19 < Twinge> green: But better weaponry for the depth, seems like?  And 3 times the HP.
01:19 <+pointless_> I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that...
01:19 <@dpeg> due has at least two obessions: alliterations and number fetich
01:19 <+greensnark> Twinge: Sure, but he's a unique, they're supposed to be tougher than the background noise monsters
01:19 <+due> dpeg: And symmetry.
01:19 <@dpeg> pointless_: well, in any case the interfaces are the same, asking for a number of fruits, right?
01:19 <+due> !lg * place=Orc:2 s=killer
01:19 <+due> Er.
01:19 < Henzell> 908 games for * (place=Orc:2): 251x an orc warrior, 127x an orc priest, 86x an orc, 82x an orc knight, 54x a troll, 52x , 51x an orc wizard, 30x an ogre, 27x an orc sorcerer, 22x an orc warlord, 14x a smoke demon, 13x a warg, 10x a hellion, 8x an iron troll, 5x a stone giant, 4x a ynoxinul, 3x a rock troll, 3x a beast, 2x a hobgoblin, 2x a reaper, 2x an ice devil, 2x a sun demon, 2x KiloByte's gho...
01:20 <+due> Walord, hellion, iron troll, stone giant...
01:20 <+due> @??stone giant
01:20 < Gretell> stone giant (C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 48-128 | AC/EV: 12/2 | Damage: 45 | Res: magic(85) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2033.
01:20 <@dpeg> 22 orc warlords <3
01:20 <+due> @??iron troll
01:20 < Gretell> iron troll (T) | Speed: 7 | HD: 16 | Health: 48-128 | AC/EV: 20/4 | Damage: 35, 25, 25 | Res: magic(106), fire, cold | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 827.
01:20 <+greensnark> Heh, kilobyte gets a mention :P
01:20 <+due> Noppe, that is utterly reasonable considering other native spawns in Orc.
01:20 <+pointless_> dpeg: well for wandering mushrooms it just converts ones adjacent to you with no prompt, and I think it would be nice to be able to use decomp. then use evolution to convert a toadstool at range 
01:20 <+pointless_> because wandering mushrooms cost piety not fruit
01:20 <@dpeg> pointless_: I agree on that.
01:20 <+due> dpeg: Oh, and making things look pretty.
01:20 <@dpeg> But for plants, the interface is very good.
01:20 <+due> dpeg: I spent an hour the other day refactoring my work code because it was ugly and I felt :| about it.
01:21 <@dpeg> And due has a knack for opening up new fronts.
01:21 <@dpeg> due: but it's work code! Nobody cares how it lookes.
01:21 <@dpeg> -e
01:21 <@dpeg> ok, thought a bit about submergers on the train, time to wiki it
01:21 < Twinge> due: Oh, didn't realize there were other ways to set the depth.  So he doesn't show up in main dungeon then?
01:22 <+due> Twinge: Not at all.
01:22 <@dpeg> due: you didn't reply to me yesterday -- is it okay if I split up des into subfoldersß
01:22 <+due> dpeg: Oh, yes, I meant to do that last night
01:22 <@dpeg> due: I can do it, too.
01:22 <+sorear> nice typo
01:22 <@dpeg> due: what about a more sane Donald speech syntax? :)
01:22 <+due> dpeg: Please, I'm going to be very busy for the next few days :) <3
01:22 <@dpeg> will do
01:23 <+due> dpeg: Sane Donald speech syntax?
01:23 <+due> dpeg: I need to speak to jpeg and Matthew about it, in that case; greensnark said that they wrote the majority of it.
01:23 <@dpeg> Donald Xom Shoals Confused Drunk Aroused
01:23 <+due> And I don't want to start futzing around with AND/OR of prefixes without knowing what it will do.
01:23 <@dpeg> ok
01:23 <+due> But yes, *that* is a hack
01:23 <@dpeg> but for Donald, all TAGS should be OR
01:24 <+due> Yes, I would like that.
01:24 <+due> Twinge: There are a thousand ways to set th edepth. This is the entire reasno why we switched to the new system.
01:24 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r8af4e4279062 /crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Add a comment.
01:25 <@dpeg> due: not the entire reason!
01:25 <@dpeg> There are always more reasons.
01:25 <+due> Well, yes
01:25 <+due> But utter flexibility with unique placement?
01:25 <@dpeg> but it's a good reason indeed
01:25 <+due> That was always my primary reason.
01:25 < Twinge> due: Fair enough.  I've never looked at the code nor seen it discussed, so... =)
01:25 <@dpeg> due: yes, also having depth and potential vaults in the same place
01:25 <@dpeg> also, outsourcing of data is good
01:25 <@dpeg> it was a good move
01:26 <@dpeg> due: do you have an idea where to put uniques.des, descript.des?
01:26 <+due> Twinge: The previous code was good foor small numbers of uniques, but it was hard-coded, which meant that any tweaks require recompile; it was also a bit klutzy, and you could only specify blocks of depths: D:2-4, etc.
01:26 < Twinge> Gotcha
01:26 <+due> dpeg: uniques.des belongs in dat/uniques.des, in my opinion.
01:26 <@dpeg> the new system is flexible, we can easily make sure the Prince Ribbit in Lair gets a blink frog band etc.
01:26 <+due> dpeg: Yes, exactly!
01:27 <@dpeg> due: so no special folder for the odd des filesß
01:27 <+greensnark> loadmaps assumes all .des files are under dat/des now
01:27 <+due> greensnark: Oh, it does?
01:27 <+due> Bah.
01:27 <+greensnark> Yes, it won't look in dat/ any more
01:27 <@dpeg> due: I thought it searches recursively...
01:27 <@dpeg> ...ah, I see what due wrote
01:27 <+due> Okay, then dat/des/special or something like that.
01:28 <+greensnark> It searches recursively from dat/des and any subfolders of dat/des you may create
01:28 <@dpeg> that is good
01:28 <+due> Put unique.des, layouts.des and rooms.des in that folder, too
01:28 <@dpeg> yes
01:28 <+due> dat/des/special or maybe even dat/des/builder
01:28 <+due> Seeing as they are mostly vaults used for the building of the dungeon
01:28 <+due> and aren't ever placed outside of that?
01:28 <+by> doy: re #128, you were thinking of the message window branch, irght?
01:28 <+due> Yes, buidler works; I'll put vault-gen.des in there as well.
01:29 <+doy> by: yes, that issue was fixed in the message window branch, wasn't it?
01:29 <+due> ... *builder
01:30 <+due> I was thinking of dat/des/builder, dat/des/branches, dat/des/portals, dat/des/religion (for altars and temple?)...
01:30 <+by> doy: think not; I'll have a look if I can save anything from branch "redraw-cleanup"
01:30 <@dpeg> due: already have branches, portals
01:31 <+doy> by: but the issue was about clearing the message window
01:31 <+doy> which i thought didn't happen anymore?
01:31 <+doy> or is that just for some of those situations
01:32 <+by> hmm, true; though it's partially because mesclr(force) isn't even implemented
01:33 <+doy> shrug, do what you want with the ticket(:
01:34 <+greensnark> I love how the new message window merges repeated messages <3
01:34 <+doy> oooh, that's in too?
01:34 <+doy> by++
01:34 <+due> dpeg: Also, we spent ages discussing how to make interestnig  alligators and replacing giant lizards with these: slow, but moving in bursts of fast speed; don't attack unless approached or attack by the player; will automatically returning to their "lake" of spawning.
01:34 <+by> doy: not the ones from different turns
01:34 <+doy> by: still a good start though
01:34 <+due> dpeg: But I had hoped to use alligators in swamp only, so that would involve removing giant lizards fro mthe dungeon, so perhaps they won't work as a replacement for giant lizards.
01:34 <+by> greensnark: it didn't use to do this?
01:34 <+greensnark> by: No
01:35 <+due> dpeg: But we could make giant lizards crocodiles instead, I suppose...
01:35 <+by> it's weird, from reading the old code I thought it did :)
01:35 <+greensnark> If you had a bunch of killer bees attacking you, you'd have to give the space bar a workout in the old messagewindow :P
01:35 <+greensnark> ^P merged duplicates, but not the message window
01:35 <+by> ah
01:35 <+greensnark> Because the mnessage window had to write out stuff immediately
01:35 <+greensnark> And it couldn't scroll back to the previous line to add (x2)
01:36 <+doy> by: hmmm
01:36 <+doy> the intention for the "each turn adds a -" was for consecutive turns with nothing happening to stack them horizontally
01:36 <+doy> not vertically
01:36 <+due> I think 
01:37 <+due> I'll do mock-up alligators tonight, once I'm finished working on troves.
01:37 <+by> yes; I just haven't implemented that
01:37 <+doy> ah, okay
01:37 <+by> should be straightforward though
01:37 <@dpeg> in my new submerger system, some monsters can be submerged when attacking (you would only see the ~ when they're very close) -- alligators would be a very good candidate
01:38 <+doy> due: i'd very much support renaming giant lizards to crocodiles
01:38 <@dpeg> doy: but also more changes
01:38 <+doy> yes
01:38 <@dpeg> cool
01:38 <@dpeg> of course, we're losing 0.6 focus again 
01:38 <+doy> most 'giant <boring animal>' could use something more interesting
01:38 <@dpeg> yes
01:39 <+doy> also, 'color <anything>'
01:39 <@dpeg> but we don't have to solve all of that for 0.6
01:39 <+doy> yes
01:39 <@dpeg> unless we want to compete with the NH devteam
01:39 <@dpeg> Did you folks all see the new @play on Crawl?
01:39 <+doy> i like eronarn's suggestion for fiend -> smoke fiend and pit fiend -> iron fiend too
01:39 <+doy> @play?
01:39 <+greensnark> Feature freeze 0.6 after AC change goes in :)
01:40 <@dpeg> doy: yes, there are some good ideas. But let's wait until 0.7 with those.
01:40 <+doy> sure
01:40 <+by> dpeg: no, where?
01:40 <@dpeg> greensnark: well, I issued a feature freeze long ago. Tells you about my authority :)
01:40 < syllogism> will the new armor spellcasting penalty go in
01:40 <+greensnark> Well, there was always the big outstanding item of AC :)
01:40 <+greensnark> Once that's in we should branch 0.6
01:40 <@dpeg> http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2010/01/column_play_crawlapalooza_part.php
01:41 <@dpeg> syllogism: not goodß
01:41 <@dpeg> damn, ß=? as you might have figured out by now
01:41 <+greensnark> Bonus ß
01:41 < syllogism> no, it seems good
01:42 <+greensnark> haben sind gewesen gehabt haben geworden sein
01:42 <+greensnark> :P
01:42 <@dpeg> syllogism: then sure, why not. I still owe the GDR modification.
01:42 < syllogism> though I don't like how you only need 9 str to cast reliably in 3 evp armor
01:42 <@dpeg> greensnark: just read the text again. It is so awesome, Twain has no clue at all :)
01:42 < syllogism> you could honestly pump ice/regular dragon armor to 4 evp
01:42 <+greensnark> :)
01:42 <@dpeg> greensnark: but he does point out a shortcoming of English, I am surprised.
01:42 < syllogism> or change it to require 4 str per evp
01:42 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yeah, he also mocks himself in the essay :)
01:42 <+greensnark> It's a delightfully tongue-in-cheek essay <3
01:42 <@dpeg> greensnark: signs of superiority
01:43 <+greensnark> "I've studied the language for 9 weeks, so I can now suggest improvements" :D
01:43 <@dpeg> syllogism: I am open for changing AC and EVP values of armours, too.
01:44 <+due> Alligators will finish off swamp nicely, I think, and are easily done (just like the new merfolk for shoals); renaming giant lizards to crocodiles for now will also be an interesting/easy change that will help to make them less boring, though they'll need a snapping attack instead.
01:44 < syllogism> why is X still crashing the game, is it just me?
01:44 <@dpeg> syllogism, sorear: I like about Sam's proposal that it would simplify part of the combat system (by using only one EV / SH penalty). Is this true or am I misguided?
01:44 <+due> syllogism: I think it's just you.
01:44 <+doy> syllogism: ascii or tiles?
01:45 <+greensnark> syllogism: Do you have gdb?
01:45 <+due> Okay, I'm off now
01:45 <+due> dpeg: Alligators and crocodiles would be nice to have a constricting bite attack
01:45 < syllogism> ascii, I compiled after greensnarks' monster spawn changes
01:45 <+due> "You are locked in the creature's jaws!"
01:45 <+due> "The alligator thrashes in a death roll!"
01:45 <+due> etc.
01:45 < syllogism> no
01:45 <+greensnark> If you have gdb, you can get a backtrace
01:45 <@dpeg> due: I agree
01:45 <+greensnark> Hmm, does the msysgit installer allow you to install it?
01:46 <+doy> i just compiled, and it's working fine for me
01:46 <@dpeg> constriction would be nice for 0.7, helps player Nagas, the Snake branch and a bunch of other monsters
01:46 <+greensnark> doy: Probably something Windows specific?
01:46 < syllogism> anyone else on windows?
01:46 <+doy> i did a wizard build rather than a debug build though
01:46 <+due> dpeg: It would also help to make them really interesting; crocodiles are aggresive, alligators are timid but will attack if provoked...
01:46 <+due> Okay, got to run.
01:46 <+due> See you all!
01:46 <@dpeg> "on windows" sounds like a bad case of some drug
01:46 <+due> dpeg: Troves!
01:46 <+doy> dpeg: kraken!
01:46 <@dpeg> due: cheers
01:46 <@dpeg> doy: for example, yes
01:46 <+doy> kraken tentacles seriously need constrictoin
01:46 <+due> dpeg: Will be done tonight. :D Hopefully.
01:46 <+greensnark> Yeah, kraken need help
01:46 < syllogism> it seems you'll still mostly get pretty trashy monsters even if you scum 18k turns :(
01:47 <@dpeg> greensnark: HELP!
01:47 <+greensnark> :P
01:47 <+greensnark> Well, the problem is that the super OOD roll doesn't guarantee an actual OOD monster :P
01:47 <+greensnark> Just makes it more likely :P
01:48 <+greensnark> Also, are you testing it in the dungeon or in other branches
01:48 < syllogism> d
01:48 < syllogism> one giant ant on d1, no oods at all on d2 and d3
01:49 <+greensnark> Giant ant on D:1 doesn't even need the super OOD roll
01:49 <+greensnark> The normal fuzz can throw it up
01:50 <@dpeg> greensnark: can you help the OODs?
01:50 <+greensnark> We can make them kick in faster
01:50 <+greensnark> Right now they ramp up as monster gen ramps down
01:50 <+greensnark> And even drawing the OOD straw isn't enough to force an actual OOD
01:51 <+greensnark> The monster has to get good rolls to boost its level
01:56 < Timbermaw> ah, by the way, did anyone read my quite big rambling about thieves? i threw some suggestions and what-not
01:57 -!- TGWi [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
01:57 <+by> doy: oh, the new dash each turn is a bug
01:57 <+doy> ah, okay(:
02:04 -!- Anym [n=chatzill@host50.natpool.mwn.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
02:04 < Anym> Hi all.
02:04 <+doy> hey
02:04 <@dpeg> Hi Anym!
02:05 < CIA-81> dpeg * rce0d8176f0a6 /crawl-ref/ (76 files in 6 dirs): Split up des files into four folders.
02:05 < Anym> Hi dpeg.
02:05 <@dpeg> Timbermaw: I read it, of course. But didn't I reply?
02:05 < Timbermaw> mhm will check
02:06 <+greensnark> syllogism: Thanks for pointing that out
02:06 < CIA-81> greensnark * r060d406c2e3e /crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Fix super OOD chances not rising linearly (syllogism).
02:06 <+greensnark> Super OOD chance was only peaking in a narrow window
02:06 < syllogism> no wonder then
02:06 <+greensnark> I've also reduced super OOD ramp to 3k->9k
02:07 <@dpeg> Timbermaw: I recently explained somewhere why I think Thief is worthless without a way of getting xp from not-killing.
02:08 <+doy> dpeg: if that's the case (and i think i somewhat agree), we should probably just remove thief as a starting class
02:09 <@dpeg> doy: well, I think the Thief god will do the trick.
02:09 < syllogism> got an orc knight on d1
02:09 < syllogism> 5 orc warriors :P
02:09 <+greensnark> syllogism: After how long?
02:09 <@dpeg> If we want to, we can disable the Thief background until then.
02:09 <+doy> dpeg: sure, but i don't think we want to make the thief class start with the thief god though
02:09 <+greensnark> Or did you wait the entire duration?
02:09 < syllogism> 7k turns, I didnt check between 3k-7k though
02:09 <@dpeg> doy: sure we want. It is like Berserkers.
02:09 < syllogism> glowing ice dragon armour
02:09 <@dpeg> well, sorry for that
02:10 < syllogism> yaktaur
02:10 <@dpeg> sure *I* want :)
02:10 <+doy> dpeg: i thought the idea was to reduce the number of classes that start with gods
02:10 <@dpeg> doy: yes!
02:10 < syllogism> vampire 
02:10 <+greensnark> Is that too much? :P
02:10 <@dpeg> greensnark: no no
02:10 <@dpeg> doy: but Trog and the thief god define playing styles
02:10 < syllogism> six-headed hydra
02:10 <+doy> hmmm, i suppose
02:11 <@dpeg> doy: we can also add the Thief god and still remove the Thief background, but without the former the latter is doomed, in my opinion
02:11 < Anym> FWIW, I think hand crossbows (even though I might have suggested their removal in a tracker item or two) a pretty cool early on and like the current Thieves, probably better than Hunters, for them.
02:11 <+doy> yes, i agree
02:11 <@dpeg> Anym: they are gone
02:12 <+greensnark> The new dart brands more than make up for the missing hand crossbows in damage
02:12 <@dpeg> yes
02:12 < syllogism> deep elf knight on d2 after 4,8k turns
02:12 <+doy> at this point, thief is pretty much strictly a weaker assassin
02:12 <@dpeg> doy: I know
02:12 <+doy> and i don't think that's really useful at all
02:12 < Timbermaw> dpeg: nah you haven't answered! i commented on someone else's feature request with some ideas
02:12 < Anym> dpeg: Hand crossbows? OK, that's fine with me, too.
02:13 <+doy> disabling it until we get a thief god is good, i think
02:13 <+doy> we can decide what to do with it when that happens
02:13 <@dpeg> doy: I don't really care about the current thief. There will also come the day when T&D matters, ideally with a Trapper (sub)style.
02:13 <+doy> sure
02:13 <+greensnark> Will we get picking pockets skill? :)
02:13 <@dpeg> Timbermaw: I answer quite often on that issue (no joke)
02:13 <+greensnark> I'd love to be able to grab stuff back from Maurice :P
02:13 <@dpeg> greensnark: no!
02:13 <@dpeg> no legerdemain
02:13 < Anym> I just would have disliked disabling the hand-crossbow-wielding (and set apart by it) Thieves due to the lack of the Thief god. :-P
02:13 <+greensnark> I had the funniest Maurice encounter the other day
02:13 <+greensnark> He stole all my potions of healing :P
02:13 < Anym> I hope it's part of a/the larger ranged weapons overhaul.
02:13 <+greensnark> And in desperation I polymorphed him into a blowfly
02:14 <+doy> hmmmmm
02:14 <@dpeg> greensnark: but followers of the thief god will be able to steal
02:14 <+greensnark> And he still had his spells <3
02:14 <+doy> oh, nm
02:14 <@dpeg> Anym: yes, it is
02:14 < Anym> Nice.
02:14 < Anym> greensnark: What new dart brands?
02:14 <+greensnark> Anym: Exploding darts, silver, etc.
02:14 <+greensnark> I don't know of all of them :)
02:15 < Ashenzari> Multiple copies of the new amulets are automatically picked up (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=500) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
02:15 <+greensnark> But even the plain flame/frost/poison are quite potent now
02:15 <+greensnark> You can take down most things in the early game with a few branded darts
02:15 < syllogism> sphinx on d4 :P
02:15 <+greensnark> And they can also take you out :P
02:15 <@dpeg> You should all read the latest comment on the @play :)
02:16 <+doy> Anym: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:issue:41
02:16 <+doy> dpeg: saw it
02:16 <@dpeg> doy: for a Crawl hater he knows his stuff quite well
02:16 <+greensnark> He's a Crawl hater?
02:16 <@dpeg> yes, I'd say so
02:16 <+doy> yeah, they're all valid points at least
02:17 <+doy> we just don't care about the first one
02:17 <+greensnark> I thought he's just so soaked in NH that everything else just bounces off :)
02:17 <+doy> and we're fixing the second and third (eventually)
02:17 <@dpeg> If I were to respond (which I won't do), my main point would be that we care about these issues and will address them.
02:17 <@dpeg> doy: yes, exactly
02:17 <+greensnark> Where was the link again
02:17 <@dpeg> the first point is a misunderstanding of "balance"
02:17 <+doy> http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2010/01/column_play_crawlapalooza_part.php
02:17 <+greensnark> Thanks
02:18 <@dpeg> the word is heavily overloaded
02:18 <+greensnark> Hey, the karry troll from rgrmisc :)
02:18 <@dpeg> yes!
02:18 <@dpeg> greensnark: agree on hater now?
02:19 <+greensnark> Oh, were you referring to karry's comment?
02:19 <+greensnark> Or to JohnH's post
02:19 <+greensnark> He also doesn't realise that classes are just starting kit
02:19 <@dpeg> greensnark: John H made a very good post, given that he's a died-in-the-wool NH fanboy.
02:20 <@dpeg> I referred to karry's rant.
02:20 <+greensnark> He's stuck in why-have-classes-if-you-can-make-them-play-the-same narrative
02:20 <+greensnark> When Crawl doesn't have classes :P
02:20 <@dpeg> yes
02:20 <+doy> greensnark: well, it's true that the classes we have aren't always very well differentiated
02:20 <+greensnark> Fair point on stats
02:20 <@dpeg> the renaming may help
02:20 <@dpeg> greensnark: both Str and Dex will matter a lot more in 0.6
02:20 <+greensnark> doy: We don't have classes at all :)
02:20 <+greensnark> Some of the starting kits are very similar, yes
02:20 < Anym> Is it jobs now?
02:21 <@dpeg> Anym: was jobs for a while, is background since yesterday
02:21 <+doy> greensnark: you know what i mean d:
02:21 <+greensnark> I'm fine with calling it whatever, but players seem to think, for instance, that wizard and summoner must play entirely differently
02:21 <+greensnark> doy: Yeah :)
02:21 <@dpeg> whereas the real question: "Will this starting kit get me to XL 5 (or thereabouts), and how?"
02:22 <+doy> ugly thing pack on d:1 at 8k turns
02:22 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@169.236.122.209] has joined ##crawl-dev
02:22 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
02:22 < Anym> dpeg: Nice, as long as it fits on the screen. ;-)
02:22 <@dpeg> are fishes HT_AMPHIBIOUS_WATER?
02:22 <+greensnark> dpeg: You're a better man than I am, reading karry's posts :P
02:22 <+doy> orc knight band at 9k turns
02:22 <+greensnark> My protective mental filter cut in at "This is a flat-out lie of ridiculous proportions"
02:22 <+doy> i like it!
02:23 <@dpeg> or is there another flag for fish?
02:23 <@dpeg> yes, leave it at high levels
02:23 <+greensnark> fishes are HT_WATER
02:23 <@dpeg> the complaints will roll in no matter what
02:23 <+greensnark> Water natives that cannot leave
02:23 <@dpeg> that makes sense
02:23 <+greensnark> The Mu farmers are going to hate your guts :P
02:24 <@dpeg> I am wondering if we really want three levels: HT_AMPHI_WATER, HT_AMPHI-LAND, CAN_SWIM+HT_LAND
02:24 <+greensnark> But I thoroughly approve
02:24 <@dpeg> greensnark: well, I hate their guts, too
02:24 < TGWi> what do you need three levels for?
02:24 <+doy> dpeg: oh hey, i went down a couple levels to test the spawning at deeper dlvls, and got a main dungeon level that is entirely metal
02:24 <+doy> (:
02:24 <@dpeg> TGWi: my point is that two might suffice
02:24 <+greensnark> dpeg: I'd prefer to remove the water speed bonus from amphibious_land
02:24 < TGWi> dpeg: roight
02:24 <@dpeg> doy: yes, can happen, I know
02:25 <+greensnark> And to add a can_submerge flag that governs submerging
02:25 < TGWi> how about just "ignores water"
02:25 <+greensnark> That should cover all our cases
02:25 < syllogism> some players might spend 3k turns on a level without scumming and then get a really lucky roll :P
02:25 <@dpeg> greensnark: and ice beasts would be amphi_landß
02:25 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yes
02:25 <@dpeg> syllogism: that is good
02:25 <+greensnark> Unless we want an actual speed penalty for swimming
02:25 <+greensnark> In which case I think we should do that on a per-monster basis with swim_energy
02:25 <@dpeg> not sure that is needed
02:25 <@dpeg> yes
02:25 <+greensnark> There's already a provision for reducing swimming speed alone
02:25 <@dpeg> where?
02:25 < TGWi> ...so we need what, one level?
02:26 <+greensnark> dpeg: You can assign different costs for walking, swimming, attacking, casting spells, etc.
02:26 <+greensnark> On a per-monster basis
02:26 <+greensnark> zelgadis put in all the machinery :)
02:26 < Anym> What was that about Mu farmers?
02:27 <+greensnark> doy: The dungeon builder can sometimes produce metal walls and even small rooms of crystal
02:27 <@dpeg> Anym: respawns are now tougher, and cease after 9k turns
02:27 <+doy> greensnark: has that always been possible in lair?
02:28 <@dpeg> this should make both automated and manual mummy scumming harder
02:28 < Eronarn> then we should need only two tags, yes? land creature, water creature; all land creatures have -50% water move, but can have this negated with +100% water move. and drowning can be an asphyx thing instead of tied to water movement?
02:28 <+greensnark> doy: Yes, I think so
02:28 < TGWi> eronarn: fumbling etc etc
02:28 < syllogism> ceases after 18k turns, I think, or is it 15k now
02:28 <+greensnark> Eronarn: We still need to indicate that the monster can swim at all
02:28 <+doy> probably just didn't see it as much before since it used to be that a hard 1/3 of lair levels were spotty_level
02:28 < TGWi> conversations are far funnier if you interpret "mu" as itsmu
02:28 <+greensnark> For non-water natives
02:28 <@dpeg> land_only, water_only, amphibious 
02:29 < TGWi> dpeg is right
02:29 <+greensnark> Currently amphibious_water means a) water-attack bonus b) water speed boost c) can submerge
02:29 <+greensnark> amphibious_land means a) no water-attack bonus b) water speed boost as before c) cannot submerge
02:30 <+greensnark> We can separate submerging out into its own flag
02:30 <+greensnark> That leaves water attack bonus
02:30 < Eronarn> so aquatic, amphibious, terrestrial?
02:30 <@dpeg> I am pasting this discussion into the water wiki :)
02:30 <@dpeg> Eronarn: yes, see my ^ 
02:30 <+greensnark> Eronarn: And lava critter
02:30 <+doy> death drake after ~4k turns on d:15
02:31 <@dpeg> doy: those will be popular :)
02:31 < TGWi> greensnark: the attack bonus isn't interesting
02:31 < Eronarn> greensnark: why not just handle that with aquatic, amphibious, terrestrial and a flag for "this applies to lava instead of water"
02:31 <+greensnark> D:15 is pretty deep anyway
02:31 <+greensnark> Well, there's currently no monster that does both lava and floor
02:31 <+greensnark> Apart from things that fly
02:31 <+greensnark> Which get the flight/lev flag
02:31 < TGWi> greensnark: yeah that's called flying
02:32 < Eronarn> sure, but doesn't have to be that way - and it would let you have monsters that burst out of lava and then fly
02:32 <+greensnark> If we remove the water attack bonus we can indeed have a single amphib flag
02:32 < Eronarn> (molten gargoyles!)
02:32 <@dpeg> Eronarn: if you need four flags anyway, it is better with land / water / both / lava
02:32 <+greensnark> If we remove the water attack bonus from monsters, player merfolk should also lose it
02:33 <+greensnark> They get double damage for water attacks which is quite powerful with Fedhas :P
02:33 <+doy> that's fine
02:33 < Eronarn> a flat damage boost in water never made sense to me anyways
02:33 <+doy> yeah, an ev boost makes a lot more sense
02:33 < Eronarn> sharks will bite you just as hard outside of water
02:33 <+greensnark> Let's not invoke realism here :)
02:33 <+greensnark> But yeah, the water attack bonus can be removed without issues
02:34 < Eronarn> greensnark: oh, i oppose it for gameplay reasons too :P it's boring
02:34 < Anym> Maybe even slightly harder, because when the shut their jaws the resistance from the air will be less than what it would be in the water...
02:34 <+greensnark> ...
02:34 <+greensnark> Anym: <3
02:35 <@dpeg> my submerging fin contains a snippet about white ~ (fin of shark)
02:35 <@dpeg> submering FR
02:35  * dpeg should go to bed
02:35 <+greensnark> Shouldn't that be white ^ fin of shark
02:35 <@dpeg> true
02:35 <+greensnark> How is ~ a substitute for ^ :P
02:35 <@dpeg> I don't think in symbols much.
02:36 < Eronarn> greensnark: i favor `
02:36 <+greensnark> ` has the advantage of being unused
02:36 < Eronarn> i also favor adding dolphins that have fins :)
02:37 < Anym> greensnark: Crawl definitely should model drag! And arrow damage should vary depending on the atmosphere. E.g. I could image Hell having higher concentrations of sulphur in the air.
02:37 <+greensnark> :P
02:37 <+greensnark> DF is that way ------->
02:37 <@dpeg> Anym: yes, you have distances yourself from our basic principles!
02:37 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@189.27.197.4.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
02:37 <+greensnark> "You see here a masterwork alligator snapping turtle. It menaces with spikes of awesomeness."
02:38 < Eronarn> it would be nice if ranged weapons had accuracy falloff with range, fwiw
02:38 < CIA-81> by * rfb227f3f1b89 /crawl-ref/source/output.cc: Turn off cursor in print_stats.
02:38 < CIA-81> by * r263f3d1fb386 /crawl-ref/source/ (output.cc stuff.cc): Don't call new_level from redraw_screen.
02:38 <+greensnark> DoomRL-like aiming where the beam visibly diverges from target <3
02:38 < CIA-81> by * r8bfcf9208e7e /crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Remove almost all instances of mesclr(true).
02:38 < CIA-81> by * r17897d12d169 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Reenable forced (delay-also) mesclr; use sparingly.
02:38 < CIA-81> by * ra0d0bf117840 /crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc message.cc): Handle both types of more prompts the same for input.
02:38 < CIA-81> by * rf98e13e46b14 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Fix abundance of new turn dashes.
02:38 <+greensnark> So you can accidentally whack something next to the target if you're shooting from far :P
02:38 < Eronarn> yeah
02:38 < Eronarn> it would give a nice thing for higher skill to mitigate
02:39 < Anym> dpeg: What were those again?
02:39 <+doy> that should be a property of deflect missiles
02:39 <@dpeg> does DoomRL have this?
02:39 <+doy> (:
02:39 <@dpeg> Anym: gameplay > interface > realism
02:39 <+doy> dpeg: you should play a few games of doomrl sometime
02:39 <@dpeg> doy: no time!
02:39 <+greensnark> dpeg: Anym is just kidding :)
02:39 < Anym> greensnark: dpeg knows.
02:39 < Eronarn> it takes only a few minutes :P
02:39 <@dpeg> no, there is no humour involved
02:39 <+greensnark> Although using details for atmosphere might be nice
02:39 <+greensnark> Can we have sulphur lakes in Gehenna
02:40 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes
02:40 < Ashenzari> player porkulator tile (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=501) by Porkchop
02:40 <@dpeg> greensnark: we have fire generators in Gehenna, which is already nice
02:40 <+doy> we still need moss-covered things
02:40 <@dpeg> true
02:40 <+greensnark> Yeah, what happened to moss-covered Lair walls? are they in?
02:40 <+doy> nope
02:40 < Eronarn> we need plants, in general :D
02:40 <+doy> i ran out of time, i'm quite busy for the rest of the month
02:40 < Eronarn> would be perfect for a spring release!
02:40 <+doy> so if anyone else wants to have a shot at it
02:40 <+doy> (:
02:40 <+greensnark> Could do some nice wall patterns with moss
02:41 <+greensnark> Rest of the month is just a few days anyway :)
02:41 <@dpeg> greensnark: made by a moss gardener?
02:41 <@dpeg> Kate Moss?
02:41 <+greensnark> Fedhas should have a mossy -walled altar vault
02:41 <@dpeg> Eronarn: I largely disagree. More plants is not good by itself.
02:41 < Eronarn> greensnark: there is a wiki FR with a variety of surface-covering (wall/floor) plants
02:41 < Eronarn> with various effects
02:42 < Eronarn> dpeg: no, but i think it is an area that needs little effort compared to the gains because plant life is so untapped as a design area
02:42 <@dpeg> the basic point is that interesting + stationary is hard to combine
02:43 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@88-148-216-78.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
02:43 < Eronarn> there are tons of interesting proposals, and a good half of them aren't stationary, anyways
02:43 < TGWi> eronarn: blood vines btw
02:43 < Eronarn> TGWi: blood vines!!
02:44 <@dpeg> moving plants are not better but worse
02:44 <@dpeg> and stationary plants share that niche with statues
02:45 < TGWi> creeping plants are where it's at
02:45 <+greensnark> Spiders + webs
02:46 <+greensnark> What happened to the spider portal vault?
02:46 <+greensnark> Or was it a branch
02:46 < Eronarn> greensnark: there is a proposal on the wiki
02:46 <@dpeg> TGWi: slow monsters are not interesting either, generally speaking
02:46 < Eronarn> it's not very good imo
02:46 < TGWi> dpeg, as in goriwng
02:46 <@dpeg> I like the proposal
02:46 <@dpeg> TGWi: ah!
02:46 < TGWi> growing wow
02:46 <@dpeg> sure, that could be used
02:47 < Eronarn> dpeg: i am not sure what your issue is with plants - having them be stationary is bad? but also, so is having them move? do you just dislike plants? :P
02:47 <+doy> dpeg just doesn't want his oklobs to become less popular
02:47 <+doy> (:
02:47 <@dpeg> no, I don't
02:47 < TGWi> blood vines extend between patches of blood and kill things in horribly gory ways
02:48 <@dpeg> Two general observations: (a) moving plants are unexpected, to say the least. Note that it does not help to make them moving but slow -- that is not interesting tactically either. (b) Stationary monsters are rarely interesting, and Crawl already has a number of them.
02:48 < Eronarn> i have no idea what you mean by 'unexpected'
02:49 <+doy> i agree about moving plants
02:49 <+doy> wandering mushrooms are fun precisely because they are unexpected
02:49 <+doy> but giving that sort of ability to too many things dilutes that
02:50 <+doy> i think adding more plants in general could be interesting, but i haven't really read any of the proposals for them
02:50 < Eronarn> i don't think that something called a "wandering" mushroom is unexpected at all, nor is the idea of moving plants unexpected among... pretty much anyone who plays fantasy games
02:50 <@dpeg> Eronarn: things that move are ... animals
02:50 <@dpeg> plants are things that stand still
02:51 < Eronarn> dpeg: Except when they're demons. Or statues. Or ghosts. Or angels. Or the real-life plants that move.
02:51 <+greensnark> dpeg: Should we give some sort of warning when the player hits the 3k threshold?
02:51 <+doy> greensnark: nah
02:52 < Eronarn> plus, things like treefolk are absurdly common in fantasy
02:52 < Eronarn> and pretty much expected
02:52 <+greensnark> Those Mu farmers are going to get a fun surprise :)
02:52 <+doy> this is something that is able to be noticed pretty easily on its own
02:52 <+doy> the exact numbers don't matter so much
02:52 < Eronarn> it's unexpected that we *don't* have any intelligent or mobile plant monsters (two that "move", but in very very specific/limited ways)
02:52 <@dpeg> greensnark: no
02:52 <+greensnark> Cool
02:53 < Anym> And what's the 3k threshold?
02:53 <@dpeg> Anym: tougher OOD spawning sets in
02:53 <+doy> Anym: spawn rate starts dropping, and ood chance starts increasing
02:53 <+doy> after 3k turns on a level
02:53 < Anym> Yay!
02:53 <@dpeg> Eronarn: I wouldn't like it, okay? And no, I don't care about fantasy books or games.
02:53 <+sorear> Hey, Anym is here!
02:53 < Anym> 3k turns in total?
02:53 <+doy> Anym: yes
02:53 < Anym> Hi sorear.
02:53 <+greensnark> Anym: Yes, 3k cumulative turns on a level
02:54 < Eronarn> dpeg: If you want to avoid it because you don't like it, that's your call, but I like it and am not alone in liking it :P
02:55 <+doy> i don't think this conversation is going anywhere productive d:
02:55 < Anym> How does respawning work actually? Do monsters respawn while you're away? Or does the game check how much time has passed since your last visiting and then perform appropriate spawning?
02:55 <@dpeg> doy: no, also we have it from time to time
02:55 <+doy> Anym: monsters have always been able to respawn when not in your los
02:55 <+sorear> dpeg: DoomRL monsters sometimes target the position you were at last turn instead of the position you are now - this makes approaching and retreating diagonally very useful
02:56 <+by> I think they only respawn on the level you're on?
02:56 < Anym> Let's fork Dungeon Crawl Vegetable Soup, now with more plants! :-P
02:56 <+doy> oh, yeah, respawns don't happen if you aren't on the level
02:56 <+sorear> the chance depends on distance, the monster's attack, and a few other factors
02:56 < Anym> doy: Also on levels you're not on?
02:56 <+doy> doomrl monsters have significantly poorer ai than crawl
02:57 <+doy> it actually makes them more difficult, since you usually have no choice but to charge them
02:57 <+doy> and doomrl is a ranged-combat based game
02:57 <@dpeg> Anym: <3
02:57 <@dpeg> sorear: interesting -- this could also work for Crawl
02:57 <+greensnark> Dungeon Crawl Turtle Soup?
02:58 < Anym> Shark fin soup?
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02:59 < Cryp71c> How do you spawn a creature (in debug) with a particular spell?
02:59 <+by> have shifters always been able to shift into shifters?
02:59 <+by> saw two this game already
03:00 <+doy> Cryp71c: monster ; spells:magic_dart
03:00 <+doy> or something like that
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03:00 < Cryp71c> gotcha
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03:02 < Cryp71c> ...well hell
03:06 < Cryp71c> If anyone can guess the format for giving certain spells to creatures in debug, let me know.
03:08 <+greensnark> Cryp71c: doy just told you how?
03:09 <+greensnark> &M orc spells:magic_dart
03:09 <+sorear> And you even said "gotcha"
03:13 <@dpeg> !tell due I copied the relevant bits of the ##crawl-dev discussion into the water wiki page. Hope you agree with the conclusion.
03:13 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let due know.
03:13 <@dpeg> bedtime
03:13 <@dpeg> greensnark: OODs are fully functional nowß
03:14 <@dpeg> ?
03:15 <@dpeg> I hope so, otherwise I cannot sleep well.
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03:34 < Anym> Bye everyone.
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03:45 < Cryp71c> hrm, I tried that earlier and it didn't work
03:45 < Cryp71c> musta been a typo
03:50 < Cryp71c> What's a ring with blink on it?
03:50 < Cryp71c> is there such a thing?
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03:59 <+by> !hs char=sesu
03:59 < Henzell> 1. rob the Summoner (L10 SESu), worshipper of Vehumet, slain by a spiny frog on Lair:3 on 2009-04-30, with 3629 points after 17036 turns and 1:43:29.
04:00 <+by> !apt se
04:00 < Henzell> SE: Air=80, Armour=140, Axes=130, Bows=100, Conj=130, Xbows=100, Darts=100, Div=130, Dodge=70, Earth=80, Ench=130, Evo=82, Exp=120, Fighting=80, Fire=80, Ice=80, Inv=75, Long=110, Maces=140, Nec=90, Poison=80, Polearms=140, Shields=130, Short=110, Slings=100, Splcast=91, Stab=100, Staves=100, Stealth=75, Summ=90, Throw=70, Tloc=100, Tmut=60!, Traps=100, Unarmed=80!
04:00 <+by> !aplayers
04:00 < Henzell> 13 active, <=80x24 players: Shovelmint (L27 KoBe @ Blade, T:104982), Errol1 (L21 DGIE @ Elf:1, T:72238), alistair (L11 DDVM @ Orc:2, T:20779), splat (L10 TrFi @ Lair:1, T:9995), dtsund (L8 DEWz @ Minitom, T:11439), rolfh (L8 MuWz @ Temple, T:44991), VicViper (L8 HuPa @ D:6, T:5604), Jack (L7 DECj @ D:6, T:5079), Oddsox (L7 KeSu @ D:5, T:4201), FriedPie (L2 DSCK @ D:1, T:756), Lessy (L2 SpHu @ D:2,...
04:00 <+by> @whereis elliptic
04:00 < Gretell> No where information for elliptic ().
04:00 <+by> @whereis hyperbolix
04:00 < Gretell> No where information for hyperbolix ().
04:01 <+by> @whereis hyperbolic
04:01 < Gretell> hyperbolic the Bewitcher (L25 DSAM), a worshipper of Makhleb, won on 2010-01-21 after 82345 turns!
04:01 <+by> !whereis hyperbolic
04:01 < Henzell> hyperbolic the Brawler (L13 TrHe), a worshipper of Elyvilon, last saved on D:14 on 2010-01-21 after 24049 turns.
04:01 <+by> !whereis elliptic
04:01 < Henzell> hyperbolic the Brawler (L13 TrHe), a worshipper of Elyvilon, last saved on D:14 on 2010-01-21 after 24049 turns.
04:01 <+by> !hs * char=trhe
04:01 < Henzell> 56. rob the Wrestler (L23 TrHe), worshipper of Elyvilon, escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2009-09-12, with 1804874 points after 95434 turns and 7:39:28.
04:01 <+by> !streak elliptic
04:01 < Henzell> elliptic has 8 consecutive wins (DSBe, MiFi, DDNe, MfCr, HOPr, HEAE, SpEn, MDAr) and has won their last game (DSAM).
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04:11 <+by> oops, sorry guys
04:11 <+by> sleep now
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04:56 <+due> Hiya
04:56 < Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
04:56 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has quit []
04:59 <+due> !messages
04:59 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (1h 46m 45s ago): I copied the relevant bits of the ##crawl-dev discussion into the water wiki page. Hope you agree with the conclusion.
04:59 <+due> Great, will look, don't have time now.
05:00 <+due> !tell dpeg Will do. I plan to do Troves, amphibious creatures, and crocodile rename tonight.
05:00 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
05:00 <+due> !tell due Read the water wiki page.
05:00 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let due know.
05:05 < Ashenzari> Remove Teleportation / Blink Mutations (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=502) by Cryptic
05:08 < Jampy> ihas it ever come up to give demonspawns (or everyone) the possibility of gaining mutations that mimic some other race specific traits like hugeness(giant clubs) or water affinity?
05:09 <+sorear> yes
05:09 <+sorear> many of our existing mutations are actually like that
05:09 < Cryp71c> There are a few mutations like that in muations.cc actually
05:09 < Cryp71c> though I've never gotten them, they may not be fully implemented.
05:10 < Jampy> ah cool
05:10 <+sorear> claws, slow healing, mapping
05:10 <+sorear> all used to be truely-innate abilities
05:10 < Jampy> oh
05:10 < Jampy> i didnt even think of that
05:11 < Cryp71c> sorear, has there been a concensus regarding the +MP muts on DS?
05:12 <+sorear> Cryp71c: no
05:12 <+sorear> Cryp71c: if no consensus is reached that they should stay, they will go
05:12 <+sorear> Cryp71c: like *all* the DS muts
05:13 < Cryp71c> sorear, ah I wasn't aware that was the current working policy. There definitely hasn't been agreement that they should stay, and I've talked with a few who definitely think they should go.
05:13 < Cryp71c> I've been working on he mut code, figured I'd ask, but ofc I'll wait until I hear something from you guys
05:13 < Cryp71c> s/he/the
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05:57 <+due> Helloo
05:57 < Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
05:57 <+due> !messages
05:57 < Henzell> (1/1) due said (57m 2s ago): Read the water wiki page.
05:57 <+due> Ah
05:59 < Cryp71c> lol due, forgetting your own messages?
05:59 <+due> No, I would've forgottne to check it
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06:00 <+due> hii ogaz
06:01 < ogaz> hi due
06:01 < ogaz> What's up?
06:02 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit []
06:02 <+due> Not much
06:02 <+due> trying to make heads or tails of this page
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06:44 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
06:44 <+due> Hey Vandal!
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07:00 <+due> Or not.
07:00 < MarvinPA> Your wandering mushroom hits your toadstool.
07:00 < MarvinPA> Your toadstool is destroyed!
07:00 < MarvinPA> You feel a little guilty.
07:01 < MarvinPA> that doesn't seem right :(
07:01 <+due> Oh, awkward.
07:01 <+due> Yeah, let me fix that.
07:02 <+due> That's part of the monstes-kill-toadstools+plants change.
07:02 <+due> Shouldn't do so for allied monsters if it would cause piety loss.
07:03 < MarvinPA> yeah, that could work out badly in branches with lots of plants if allies go crazy attacking them :P
07:06 <+due> !lm * uniq=~lern
07:06 <+due> !lg * killer=~lern
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07:06 < Henzell> No milestones for * (uniq=~lern).
07:06 < Henzell> No games for * (killer=~lern).
07:07 < ogaz> due: I don't think the Lernaean Hydra is generated ingame
07:07 <+due> ogaz: >:) 'tis now.
07:08 < ogaz> oh, cool
07:08 < ogaz> don't let it melee you on pain of death?
07:08 <+due> Hehehe.
07:08 <+due> Well, it generates in the new old_school swamp ending.
07:08 <+due> Which is a randomly generated ending that looks like... old school swamp.
07:08 <+due> It also has the Lernaean Hydra tucked away in a corner. <3
07:08 <+due> dpeg said we could add it :D
07:10 < ogaz> I just hope no one takes the stairs and lands right next to it
07:10 <+due> Can't.
07:10 < ogaz> okay, awesome :D
07:10 <+due> Hang on
07:10 <+due> Will pastebin
07:11 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1761201
07:11 < Napkin> Moin moin!
07:11 <+due> Heya Napking!
07:12 < Napkin> Due! :D
07:12  * Napkin closes that pastebin link quickly again *
07:12 < Napkin> didn't see anything - didn't see anything
07:13 <+due> Whaat?
07:13 < Napkin> wanna play it! not be spoiled ;)
07:13 <+due> Oh :)
07:13 <+due> :D
07:14 < Napkin> :)
07:16 < ogaz> due: <3
07:18 <+due> ogaz: :D
07:19 <+Keskitalo> Do I smell funny if I don't like an user with "Nobody" for name and "anon511-lolwut@yahoo.com" for email address? :)
07:20 < Napkin> hehe
07:20 < Napkin> I checked too, Keskitalo 
07:20 <+Keskitalo> HAI GUYS AIM ANOOONOMUSS
07:20 <+due> I don't particularly like it.
07:20 < Napkin> he actually reported a bug :)
07:20 <+due> But doesn't seem particularly to be a troll.
07:21 <+due> Maybe we could require a valid email address? Or is that too muh?
07:21 <+Keskitalo> That's a plus. :) Well, as long as it's not bugmenot.
07:21 <+Keskitalo> i.e. as long as there is just one "Nobody".
07:22 < ogaz> If he doesn't troll, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt
07:23 <+due> You think someone's set up an oopen account for bug reporting and has the password posted somewhere?
07:23 < Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=222#c1374
07:23 <+due> We can always check IP addresses and stuff.
07:24 < Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=470#c1379
07:24 < Napkin> he's even participating
07:24 <+due> Which reminds me to check the SF tracker.
07:25 < Napkin> I should have created a blacklist of names :)
07:27 <+due> Do friendlies attacking neutral plants also give piety loss, MarvinPA?
07:27 < MarvinPA> hmm, i'm not sure
07:28 <+due> Hm.
07:28 < MarvinPA> i'll try and check
07:28 < Napkin> Today I will speed up the "Knowledge Bots" website to use local rsync of learndb :D
07:28 <+Keskitalo> due: Looks like one person, but that was my initial paranoid thought. :]
07:29 < MarvinPA> yeah, they do
07:30 <+due> MarvinPA: Okay, thanks
07:30 < MarvinPA> with "you feel very guilty" as the message, so maybe it's even more piety loss? :o
07:31 < MarvinPA> or maybe just because it was a plant and not a fungus, i dunno
07:31 <+due> MarvinPA: What about hostiles?
07:31 <+due> You feel very guilty is piety loss
07:32 <+due> You shouldn't get hostile plants, though.
07:32 < Napkin> for the record: 8941 entries in learndb!
07:32 < MarvinPA> yeah, it didn't say 'very' when i ran into it before though
07:32 < MarvinPA> and yeah
07:32 < MarvinPA> no hostile plants as fedhas
07:32 < ogaz> Napkin: and only like 1/8 are in bad_ideas!
07:32 < ogaz> how many are redirects?
07:33 <+sorear> Keskitalo: I have to wonder in general about the 'proper' course of action for undesirable user accounts
07:33  * sorear is not thrilled having a user named 'niggercrusher' playing on his server
07:33 <+sorear> (which, granted, is not on the same level as a mere 'Nobody')
07:33  * due registers NobodyCrusher.
07:34 < Napkin> talk to and inform that you won't tolerate such a name, sorear 
07:34 < Napkin> to people using Nobody, xSHITLORDx and PigVomit - I just ask them, if they don't think a different name would be more appropriate
07:36 < Ashenzari> Doors can be generated being attached to only one wall (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=503) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
07:36 <+due> PigVomit's using PorkChop, no?
07:36 <+due> His tiles are excellent.
07:36 < Napkin> yes, once he started participating, he asked me to change his nick
07:37 < Napkin> rax actually added a black list for names containing certain strings iirc, sorear
07:38 < Napkin> 731, ogaz :)
07:39 < ogaz> Napkin: thanks
07:40 < Napkin> only checked first entries with "see {link}" - i consider others to be valid
07:40 < Napkin> cubs/1:see {cbus} <- hihi
07:40 <+due> ??due
07:40 < Henzell> due[1/7]: Sigmund is his only true love.
07:41 < Napkin> hahaha
07:41 <+due> Hm. Still true.
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07:43 < Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=due
07:43 <+due> !learn delete due[3]
07:43 < Henzell> Deleted due[3/7]: Optional branches can be in pretty much any order after that: Hells, Slime, Tomb and Abyss. Otherwise: Zot. Clearing Zot and not taking the orb, then going to other branches is also an option.
07:44 < Napkin> there's a tile missing!
07:44 <+due> With?
07:44 < Napkin> with that due entry :>
07:44 <+due> Hehe
07:44 < Zannick> ?? jokeserver[3]
07:44 < Henzell> jokeserver[3/3]: You die...Xom finds this hilarious!
07:45 <+due> I think I will play
07:45 < Napkin> good choice!
07:46 <+sorear> Napkin: the blacklist is just for henzell
07:46 < Napkin> oh, right
07:46 < Napkin> i would be more harsh
08:00 < CIA-81> due * r256b3fc73c07 /crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Don't let monsters pathfind through friendly firewood. (MarvinPA)
08:04 < MarvinPA> hmm, should you be able to use abilities that don't cost food, if you're starving?
08:04 < Napkin> yes, please
08:04 <+due> MarvinPA: Can't you already?
08:04 < MarvinPA> nope
08:04 <+due> I dislike the whole no spellcasting while starving thing.
08:05 < MarvinPA> can't use decomposition or sunlight while starving
08:05 <+due> Hm.
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08:30 <+due> Mu_! :D
08:39 < Mu_> dueey
08:40 < Mu_> did the logs stop logging?
08:40 <+due> Doy is here, so I don't think so
08:40 <+due> but Freenode was doing the hula-hoops last night
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09:11 < Ashenzari> Demonspawn can get both Ice facets. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=504) by Kyrris
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09:57 <+due> Wb, sorear.
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10:01 <+due> Oh, scarf = ais523?
10:02 < scarf> yes
10:05 <+due> !tell doy Love the new Lair. (My first proper play-through.)
10:05 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let doy know.
10:13 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2572-g256b3fc (16.1)!
10:14 <+kilobyte> now we'll see how it goes.  Since you spend 1-1.5k turns per level on the average, it's very easy to reach 3k turns.  And elf knights on D:1 mean we'll be reverting this part rather soon.
10:15 <+due> Elf knights on D:1?
10:15 <+due> Is that even possible?
10:15 <+sorear> I sense pessimism.
10:15 <+due> Well, if it needs to be reverted, hit me up.
10:15 <+due> But it'd be easier to just update nad recompile than to revert CDO, I think? Napkin?
10:15 <+sorear> Back in the good old days you could get yaktaur captains on D:1.
10:15 <+doy> !messages
10:15 < Henzell> (1/1) due said (10m 34s ago): Love the new Lair. (My first proper play-through.)
10:15 < Napkin> mmh?
10:16 <+doy> (:
10:16  * sorear sobs for the 0.1 OOD system
10:16 <+doy> due: it's not going to affect anyone who plays the game normally
10:16 <+due> Napkin: Is it easy to shift all the save-games down a version if we run into troubles?
10:16 <+sorear> as we're seeing now, nerfing oods was a mistake
10:16 <+due> doy: I honestly didn't think so, but half the time I hav eno idea whether or not people are voicing serious concenrs or not.
10:16 < Napkin> no, it's not "easy"
10:16 < Napkin> but doable
10:16 < Napkin> if people save their games
10:16 <+due> Napkin: Yeah, okay, so easier to just revert the change in trunk and then recompile and shift everyone up? :)
10:17 <+doy> ood spawns were one of the most depressing nerfs in stone soup anyway, in my opinion
10:17 < Napkin> indeed :)
10:17 <+doy> so... let them whine
10:17 <+doy> (:
10:17 <+kilobyte> I wonder why no one of us did a back-of-the-envelope estimate of the number of turns spent per level yesterday.
10:17 < Napkin> i don't like ridiculous ood spawns
10:17 <+doy> i did
10:17 <+doy> vaguely
10:17 <+due> !lg kiler=troll s=place
10:17 < Henzell> Unknown selector: kiler
10:17 <+due> !lg killer=troll s=place
10:17 < Henzell> 9 games for due (killer=troll): 5x D:8, 2x D:9, 1x D:10, 1x D:12
10:18 <+doy> looked over a couple of my games, i seem to average just over 1000 turns per level or so
10:18 <+doy> and i'm not particularly fast
10:18 <+due> 1k turns a level is still a third of what is required to hit the OOD penaalty, right?
10:18 <+doy> and nothing starts happening until 3k turns
10:18 <+doy> and even then, it's a ramp up
10:18 <+kilobyte> a 3-rune win has 69 levels
10:18 <+due> Yeah.
10:19 <+doy> kilobyte: yeah, and a 3-rune win is usually around 100k turns or so
10:19 <+due> !lg * nrune=3 kty=winning s=turns
10:19 < Henzell> Bad arg 's=turns' - cannot summarise by turn
10:19 <+due> !lg * nrune=3 kty=winning s=turn
10:19 < Henzell> Bad arg 's=turn' - cannot summarise by turn
10:19 <+due> :|
10:19 <+due> !lg * nrune=3 kty=winning x=turn
10:19 < Henzell> Unknown selector: kty
10:19 <+doy> we need avg=turn
10:19 <+due> Oh, I give up. I just fail.
10:19 <+due> doy: Yes, that would be nice.
10:19 <+Keskitalo> regarding kobolds with killer darts on D:1 (yeah I just died in one's arms tonight)
10:20 <+Keskitalo> I wonder if it would be bad to be able to see monsters missiles? Like you see worn and wielded equipment?
10:20 <+due> oh, thank you for the reminder
10:20 <+kilobyte> if the _average_ is close to 1.5k, you hit 3k very often
10:20 <+doy> kilobyte: can always tweak it if it actually becomes a problem
10:20 <+doy> but i'd say let it be for a little bit
10:20 <+due> It'll be ggood just for the fun of it.
10:21 <+kilobyte> yes, this why I said we'll be reverting it rather soon :p
10:21 <+kilobyte> for now, let's enjoy the splats and suffering :)
10:21 <+doy> it certainly won't be reverted
10:21 <+due> Increased to 4k or so seems like a better option than straight reverting.
10:21 <+doy> yes
10:21 <+kilobyte> I agree with Lemuel's post on c-r-d
10:22 <+Keskitalo> Hmm, an altar on D:1.
10:22 <+due> adjustments can always be made.
10:22 <+due> Keskitalo: Alligators in swamp!
10:22 <+due> Oh bummer, crocodiles and alligators need to be on the same  glyphs, right?
10:23 <+kilobyte> they're so unlike each other!
10:23 <+due> Also, why are giant geckos yellow?
10:23 <+Keskitalo> due: They're badass for XL1 chars.
10:23 <+due> Hm.
10:23 <+due> Okay, bah.
10:23 <+Keskitalo> I might be full of BS but I think the idea is to have bright colours for *relative* threats on normal spawning depth.
10:23 <+due> I wanted to use blue and lightblue for alligators, and yellow for crocodiles.
10:23 < Kyrris> Stairdancing a tough fight might be likely to hit 3k.
10:24 < Kyrris> I probably spent close to that on Vaults:7 a few times.
10:24 < Kyrris> I'm a bit late to this conversation.
10:24 <+due> I suppose we can stick to lightgreen for crocodiles.
10:25 <+due> Okay, colours.
10:26 <+due> green, giant newt; lightgreen, giant lizard -> crocodile; yellow, giant gecko; blue, giant iguanaa; magenta, gila monster; lightred, komodo dragon; brown, swamp drake; red, fire drake; lightgrey, death drake.
10:26 <+due> Oh, lightcyan, lindwurm.
10:26 <+due> I'm proposing that we move giant iguana to cyan, and use blue + lightblue for alligators.
10:28 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@85-131-29-172.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
10:28 <+due> No objections? Okay.
10:29 < Twinge> Kyrris: I guess it depends on just how fast the ood/reduced spawns ramp up for how important it is to normal chars.
10:30 <+doy> yes, i really thing we should wait to see how it actually plays out
10:30 < Twinge> due: Seems fine-ish, though obviously a bit crowded.  I guess it already was, though.
10:30 <+doy> before assuming it's going to cause all kinds of problems
10:30 <+doy> maybe move alligators and crocodiles to t
10:31 <+due> doy: That was my other thought.
10:31 <+due> doy: But I'm not sur ethat renaming and rebranding and re-glyphing giant lizards from 'l giant lizard' to 't crocodile' would help.
10:31 <+due> And they'd change glyph, name, *and* colour.
10:31 <+due> Does this matter?
10:31 < Twinge> how similar will they be to ginat lizards?
10:31 <+doy> i don't mind it
10:31 <+doy> Twinge: stats would be basically the same
10:32 <+doy> @??giant lizard
10:32 < Gretell> giant lizard (l) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(20) | XP: 104.
10:32 <+due> True.
10:32 <+due> Stats will be identical, for now.
10:32 <+due> In 0.7 they'll get a jaw-clenching (like constricting) attack.
10:32 <+doy> giant lizards were always annoying because they're such a large jump in power level
10:32 <+due> They'll be amphibious, but get no speed bonus in water.
10:32 <+doy> compared to the rest of the lizard-type things you've seen up until that point
10:33 <+doy> making it clear that they're actually different is a good thing, i think
10:33 <+due> I suppose moving them to 't' works, then?
10:33 <+due> Also, "crocodile" sounds a lot more terrifying than "giant lizard".
10:33 <+due> At least in my head.
10:33 < Twinge> The name is a pretty clear indicator, hehe.  And since they're close enough re-using the glyph is fine.  But moving them is also fine.  Pretty indifferent on this one.
10:33 <+doy> yes
10:34 < Twinge> giant lizard did definitely sound rather generic for something that can smack for 20 damage
10:34 <+due> Yeah.
10:34 <+Keskitalo> Level gain --more-- seems to be printed below the visible message window for me.
10:34 <+Keskitalo> (on CDO, the latest build)
10:34 <+kilobyte> especially that the name sounds like "giant newt"
10:35 <+due> kilobyte: Yeah.
10:35 <+doy> kilobyte: yes
10:35 <+kilobyte> we're overusing "giant", so it doesn't convey a sense of danger
10:35 <+due> We really need to dump giant.
10:35 <+doy> yes
10:36 <+doy> giant <anything> really needs to be renamed
10:36 <+due> Iguanas are usually pretty large; why do they need to be giant?
10:36 <+due> doy: Giant bat and giant cockroach?
10:36 <+Keskitalo> I think I agree.
10:36 <+due> Monsters don't have to be large to prove to be a big threat.
10:36 <+due> And I don't think we need to rationalise that they're a big threat because they're "giant": they can just be a threat.
10:37 < Ashenzari> Being paralyzed no longer offers a --more-- prompt each turn. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=505) by Kyrris
10:37 <+doy> 'giant' could stay for insects, i suppose
10:37 <+doy> but 'giant bat' -> 'bat' wouldn't be a bad idea, i think
10:37 <+due> "mite" sounds better than "giant mite" in my head.
10:37 <+due> I agree.
10:37 <+Keskitalo> "mitey mite".. aren't mites quite tiny?
10:38 < Kyrris> They're small enough to parasitize ticks.
10:38 <+due> But why do we need to call them giant?
10:39 < Kyrris> Could be "big-ass".
10:39 <+doy> due: because hitting normal mites with a sword doesn't really make sense
10:40 < st_> maybe crawl mites are giant, but do you need to name them that?
10:41 <+due> st_: That is my point.
10:41 < Kyrris> They're Mitanic.
10:41 <+doy> shrug, i think it sounds somewhat silly to say nothing
10:41 <+due> "This mite is surprisingly large."
10:41 < st_> the description could say "I really really big"
10:41 <+doy> but you could be right
10:41 <+doy> i don't feel too strongly about it
10:41 <+doy> (:
10:41 < st_> Is*
10:42 <+Keskitalo> Also hiding the --more--: getting another go from identify scroll.
10:42 < Twinge> Jumbo, Enormous, Gigantic, Hulking, Huge, Immense, Towering, Massive, Oversized, Mighty...
10:42 <+due>             // [ds] Amphibious monsters get a significant speed boost
10:42 <+due>             // when swimming, as discussed with dpeg. We do not
10:42 <+due> And *now* the truth comes out.
10:42 <+Keskitalo> :D
10:42  * due glares respectively at greensnark and dpeg.
10:43 < syllogism> Does cdo have the new OODs yet
10:43 <+due> Yes.
10:43 <+due> As of about half an hour ago.
10:43 <+doy> just did a few minutes ago
10:43 <+due> We are all waiting patiently for the deaths.
10:43  * due cackles, quietly, though.
10:43 <+doy> (:
10:44 < syllogism> time to die
10:44 < syllogism> to scare ##crawl
10:47 < Eronarn> fr: new jumbo shrimp monster
10:48 < Eronarn> just get rid of one of the fish for it
10:48 < CIA-81> kilobyte * re2ec8461d327 /crawl-ref/settings/autopickup_exceptions.txt: Multiple copies of new amulets are useless (Marvin)
10:48 < CIA-81> kilobyte * re330e68623d7 /crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Scrolls (not spells) of torment are definitely not useless for undead (Marvin)
10:52 <+sorear> !lg Kyrris -2
10:52 < Henzell> 619. Kyrris the Firebug (L1 KeFE), hit from afar by a kobold on D:1 on 2010-01-22, with 41 points after 186 turns and 0:00:25.
10:52 <+sorear> ^^^ buggy vmsg
10:53 <+sorear> it should say what he was hit *with*
10:53 <+Keskitalo> Again --more-- problems when joining a religion - that part also displays differently from before. (haven't checked message.cc todo list)
10:53 <+sorear> that message is supposed to be reserved for innate ranged attacks (oklobs, manticores)
10:54 <+greensnark> Oh god, we need jumbo shrimp
10:54 <+doy> !lg Kyrris -2 -tv
10:54 < Henzell> 619. Kyrris, XL1 KeFE, T:186 requested for FooTV.
10:54 <+greensnark> And the new super OOD will probably need to be weakened, yeah :P
10:54 < syllogism> why? :P
10:54 <+greensnark> But we shall gloat over the splats first
10:54 <+doy> sorear: exploding dart
10:54 <+sorear> doy: I know
10:55 <+sorear> doy: But people who run !lg queries five years from now won't
10:55 <+greensnark> syllogism: Well, it's now 1 in 500, so people are going to run into frost giants from randomy respawsns even before 3k turns :P
10:55 < syllogism> oh
10:55 <+sorear> Especially if they're doing aggregate or filtered queries and can't just check logs
10:55 <+doy> sorear: i know
10:55 <+doy> just pointing it out to whoever feels like actually fixing it
10:55 <+doy> (:
10:56 < syllogism> were the super oods broken before your changes?
10:56 <+greensnark> They were 1 in 5000 :P
10:56 <+greensnark> 10x more common now :P
10:56 <+greensnark> Even before anti-scumming activation
10:56 < syllogism> yeah but I don't think I ever saw anything on d1 that could be considered super OOD :P
10:56 < Twinge> Centaurs on D1 for everybody!
10:56 < syllogism> centaurs arent super ood :P
10:57 <+due> greensnark: YOU ARE TO BLAME.
10:57 <+greensnark> D:1 had the 1.4k wait before super OODs could activate, and even after it activated it was 1 in 5000
10:57 <+due> greensnark: I SAW THE COMMENT.
10:57 < Twinge> For D1 they count as super OOD, I think.
10:57 <+greensnark> due: For what? :P
10:57 <+due> greensnark: I'm just going to kill the amphibious bonus, and we can adjust swim speed at a later date?
10:57 <+sorear> Twinge: moderate ood is like 7, super ood is 27
10:57 <+due> greensnark: Or should I go through and manually update all of them?
10:57 <+sorear> super ood = titans
10:57 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away
10:58 <+greensnark> due: I haven't followed the water discussion closely, but things like hydras and Antaeus should keep their water boost
10:58 <+greensnark> As also mefolk in water
10:58 <+due> greensnark: Okay. But we'll do that using SWIM_ENERGY, yeah?
10:58 < Twinge> sorear: Madness.  But... that's never happened on D1?  I remember looking at a lot of D1 kills, and they only things that far OOD were like from pissed dieties
10:58 <+greensnark> But we can add it back later if necessary
10:58 <+due> greensnark: I don't honestly understand how ennergy is supposed to work.
10:58 <+greensnark> Yes, we can use swim_energy
10:59 <+due> greensnark: So, that's why I'm saying someone else who can work out what it should be so it's the same as before can do it. :)
10:59 <+greensnark> !lg * killer=yaktaur caption min=lvl
10:59 < Henzell> No games for * (killer=yaktaur caption min=lvl).
10:59 <+greensnark> !lg * killer=yaktaur captain min=lvl
10:59 < Henzell> 232. wasp the Swordfighter (L18 HEPa), worshipper of The Shining One, shot by a yaktaur captain (bolt of frost) in Hell on 2007-07-25, with 211386 points after 61450 turns and 7:49:11.
10:59 <+greensnark> Beh
10:59 <+due> swim_energy(6) means they use 6 of <default energy> per action, yeah?
10:59 <+greensnark> !lg * killer=yaktaur captain min=xl
10:59 < Henzell> 232. syllogism the Ducker (L1 SpTh), worshipper of Elyvilon, shot by a yaktaur captain (bolt of flame) on D:22 on 2008-08-07, with 368 points after 24798 turns and 1:01:31.
10:59 <+greensnark> !lg * killer=yaktaur captain place=D:1
10:59 < Henzell> 1. Imin the Skirmisher (L2 MuFi), shot by a yaktaur captain (bolt) on D:1 on 2007-03-24, with 73 points after 1105 turns and 0:04:31.
11:00  * greensnark is slow.
11:00 <+due> Or is it 6 of base speed?
11:00 <+sorear> due: energy for monsters works exactly the same as for players
11:00 <+greensnark> 6/10 of the normal energy they'd use
11:00 <+due> Okay.
11:00 < syllogism> You hear a splash. x4
11:01 <+due> sorear: I don't understand how it works for the player, either. :)
11:01 <+due> ??energy
11:01 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled energy in my learndb.
11:01 < syllogism> I guess some foo band spawned in water?
11:01 < syllogism> should I investigate? :P
11:01 <+due> You should.
11:02 <+due> Anyway
11:02 <+due> I'm of for a jog.
11:02 <+due> Back in an hour or so.
11:02 < syllogism> lucky me
11:02 <+greensnark> What was it :P
11:02 < syllogism> check ##crawl :P
11:02 <+greensnark> How boring
11:02 <+greensnark> That's already been done in 2007 :P
11:03 <+greensnark> Can you get some more modern action
11:03 <+doy> people still hang out in ##crawl?
11:03 <+greensnark> How about a titan
11:03 <+doy> that place got to be too much for me
11:03 <+doy> (:
11:03 < Twinge> Dear lord, yaktaur captain
11:03 < Twinge> doy: <Gretell> meneril the Chiller (L2 MuIE), shot by a yaktaur captain (bolt) on D:1, with 76 points after 9684 turns and 0:07:57.
11:03 <+doy> greensnark: is the current ood formula more or less harsh than 0.1 levels?
11:04 <+doy> Twinge: nice
11:04 < Twinge> doy: Not nice :O  
11:05 <+greensnark> doy: More common
11:05 <+greensnark> But it only kicks in after 1.4k turns on D:1
11:05 <+greensnark> I'm planning ot push it back to around 1/2000 as a starting value
11:06 <+greensnark> Compared to 1/5000 in 0.1
11:06 <+greensnark> And 1/500 now :P
11:06 <+doy> if it starts at 1/500 now, what does it ramp up to?
11:06 < syllogism> 1/1 :P
11:06 <+greensnark> 100% after 9k turns :P
11:06 < Twinge> Wait, so did any of the mummy buffs go in yet?
11:06 <+doy> haha, nice
11:06 <+doy> Twinge: the stats did, i think
11:07 <+doy> not sure about anything else
11:07 < syllogism> yeah this MuWz has 10 17 10
11:07 <+greensnark> 0.2% at 3k turns, 100% at 9k turns
11:07 <+greensnark> I think the starting value needs a change
11:07 <+greensnark> And the ending value back to 12k turns :P
11:07 < Twinge> More int than Dex, for sure
11:07 <+greensnark> syllogism: What do you think? :P
11:08 < syllogism> sounds fine
11:09 < syllogism> I found something new :P
11:09 < syllogism> but I might die to something old :(
11:10 <+greensnark> Try to avoid being boring here :P
11:10 < syllogism> I think I managed :P
11:10 <+greensnark> <3
11:10 <+greensnark> Only 5k turns, too, good, good
11:12 < Twinge> <Gretell> meneril the Magician (L2 MuWz), blasted by an ogre mage (bolt of lightning) on D:1, with 34 points after 5119 turns and 0:05:11.
11:12 <+sorear> Perfect
11:12 <+sorear> Let's keep OODs exactly as they are now
11:13 < Twinge> And make a centaur always spawn on D:1 every game too right
11:14 <+doy> !killsby centaur cv>=0.4 place=d:1
11:14 < Henzell> 48 games for * (ckiller=centaur ((cv>=0.4 place=d:1))): 7x KiloByte, 2x Pixels, 2x syban, 2x heteroy, 2x TGW, 1x aori, 1x crawlie, 1x thevalrus, 1x b0lt, 1x MUMMY, 1x 78291, 1x tapicell, 1x Manslay, 1x sysy, 1x rolfh, 1x svek, 1x Phantom, 1x Scarr, 1x Elly, 1x Eli, 1x ziropiro, 1x Jhav, 1x doy, 1x ruthinator, 1x Blackmore, 1x Sergei, 1x Skizzler, 1x Shivaasori, 1x herself, 1x NyaaKitty, 1x khyrre,...
11:15 < Twinge> I wonder how many of those followed up stairs 
11:15 <+greensnark> I avoided a centaur on D:1 once. It was a mistake, because I met a worm on D:2 :P
11:16 <+doy> !lg kilobyte ckiller=centaur place=d:1 s=xl
11:16 < Henzell> 7 games for kilobyte (ckiller=centaur place=d:1): 3x 4, 2x 3, 1x 5, 1x 6
11:16 <+doy> !lg kilobyte ckiller=centaur place=d:1 s=race
11:16 < Henzell> 7 games for kilobyte (ckiller=centaur place=d:1): 7x Mummy
11:16 <+doy> aha
11:16 < Kyrris> You finish putting on the +2 pair of gloves of Ynekioru {rPois Acc+3}.
11:16 <+doy> !lg kilobyte ckiller=centaur place=d:1 s=start
11:16 < Henzell> Bad arg 's=start' - cannot summarise by start
11:17 <+doy> !lg kilobyte ckiller=centaur place=d:1 s=v
11:17 < Henzell> 7 games for kilobyte (ckiller=centaur place=d:1): 3x 0.4.4, 2x 0.6.0-a0, 1x 0.5.1, 1x 0.6.0-a1
11:17 <+doy> !gamesby kilobyte race=mu
11:17 < Henzell> kilobyte (race=mu) has played 656 games, between 20080808 and 20100121, won 1 (0.2%), high score 2213368, total score 6128918, total turns 35437963, total time 187:22:58.
11:17 < CIA-81> by * ra21ab46018f3 /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc mon-util.h): Revert "mons_is_firewood: Monsters that other monsters may cut through."
11:17 < CIA-81> by * re2dbb8c1401c /crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Move cutting down check out of _monster_move.
11:20 -!- by [n=rob@g225126085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:20 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ
11:20 <+by> hi
11:20 <+doy> hey
11:24 <+Keskitalo> Hi by!
11:24 <+Keskitalo> Where should I post bugs/anomalies about the message window? Is there a wiki page or a Testing & Feedback item on the mantis?
11:25 <+by> nothing at the moment; you could start one or just file bug reports
11:25 <+Keskitalo> Okay, I'll start one later
11:26 <+Keskitalo> due/Napkin can you run cdo/trunk update scripts? I could use the new builds on the usability project right now :)
11:26 < CIA-81> greensnark * rd3eb308ad228 /crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Make super OOD chances start at 1/5000 again, and increase ramp time to 9k turns (0.02% at 3k -> 100% at 12k turns).
11:26 < syllogism> wasn't it going to be 2k :p
11:26 <+sorear> let's just get rid of level_number and monster depths
11:26 <+greensnark> It was :P
11:26 <+doy> sorear: d:
11:27 <+sorear> make monster composition uniform by branch
11:27 <+Keskitalo> due/Napkin scratch that, I can do
11:27 <+by> would it be straightforward to get the stash tracker to find sticks-to-snake material by searching for "stash"?
11:27 <+by> "stick"
11:27 <+greensnark> Yes
11:28 < Napkin> updated this morning, Keskitalo :)
11:28 <+greensnark> You can add a suitable annotation to item descriptions
11:28 <+greensnark> The same way weapons are annotated with their skills and stuff
11:28 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: I mean the Windows builds.. I'm on it. Already played the freshest build on CDO a bit back. :)
11:28 <+doy> if you're going to mess with item annotations, you should make the {artefact} annotation added to all artefacts, not just ided ones
11:28 <+Keskitalo> Damn kobolds with darts, I ain't going near them anymore.
11:28 <+by> is this in C++ (stash.cc?) or lua?
11:29 <+greensnark> by: It can be done in either
11:29 <+greensnark> If you use Lua you'll probably need to add bindings to figure out if an item is sticks-to-snakes-able
11:29 <+greensnark> stash.lua has the existing annotaitons
11:30 <+by> ok, thanks, I'll have a look
11:30 <+sorear> ==doy
11:30 <+greensnark> agreed on artefact applying to all arts
11:30 <+by> yes, I'll try to do that as a warm-up
11:31 <+greensnark> stash_annotate_item is the C++ function that hands off to the Lua annotator and adds spellbook contents
11:31 <+greensnark> If you want to do it in C++, you'd do it there
11:31 < Napkin> :)
11:32  * due reutnrs.
11:32  * greensnark reuters.
11:32 <+due> ...
11:32  * due returns.
11:32 <+Keskitalo> by: I assume " *   - --more-- for full message window (partial)" in the todo is that when the message window is full and you get a --more--, it's not displayed ?
11:32 <+sorear> hey, we could even annotate items with alt spellings
11:32 <+sorear> artifact, armor
11:33 <+due> sorear: That's stupid.
11:33 <+greensnark> Yes, we should do that
11:33 <+due> OH
11:33 <+due> You don't mean
11:33 <+due> plate mail {armor}?
11:33 <+Keskitalo> by: The religion screen is also on your TODO, I think that covers what I had to report
11:33 <+due> Obviously I missed a point.
11:33 <+greensnark> The game is supposed to accept US english spellings where possible on player input
11:33 <+greensnark> due: These annotations aren't actually shown to the user
11:33 <+sorear> due: Annotations are not the same as inscriptions
11:33 <+due> Ah.
11:33 <+due> Ignoreme!
11:33 <+greensnark> It's like ^F shop
11:33 <+due> Yeah, I just gathered that.
11:33 <+sorear> ^F armor in this case
11:33 <+by> Keskitalo: first, no
11:34 <+due> That is a really good idea?
11:34 <+doy> greensnark: where does it do that currently?
11:34 <+greensnark> doy: stash.lua 
11:34 <+by> that's just that delayed messaging doesn't have window-full --more-- prompts at all, which is part feature and part missing implementation
11:34 <+doy> greensnark: no, i mean the accepting us english bit
11:34 <+greensnark> doy: Oh, for .rc config options
11:35 <+doy> oh, it does?
11:35 <+doy> i had no idea
11:35 <+doy> (:
11:35 <+due> by: Thanks for tweaking the cutt-down thing.
11:35 <+greensnark> It's not consistent, but that's the intnet, yes
11:35 <+due> Okay, back into amphibiousnessmonsterness!
11:36 <+by> due: just a bit of cleanup -- thanks for fixing the actual behaviour
11:36 <+Keskitalo> by: Oh, I see. I'll note that down.
11:36 < CIA-81> by * ra5c0dcc21673 /crawl-ref/source/l_item.cc: l_item.cc: item.artefact doesn't check identified status anymore.
11:37 < CIA-81> by * rf45e327980a9 /crawl-ref/source/dat/lua/stash.lua: Update artefact stash search comment.
11:37 < Ashenzari> Message window anomalities (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=506) by evktalo
11:37 <+due> by: That's fine, someone (marvinpa, I think?) commented that they got a piety loss because a wandering mushroom destroyed a toadstool to get to a monster.
11:37 <+due> greensnark: Can you think of any instances where we shouldn't be doing monster speed in water via swim energy?
11:39 <+Keskitalo> What was the delay_message_clear renamed to?
11:39 <+sorear> clear_messages
11:41 <+Keskitalo> Thanks.
11:41 <+Keskitalo> by: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=506 - does it look useful? I added some related reports under Relationships. I figure that list could be useful.
11:42 <+by> Keskitalo: yes, thanks
11:43 <+due> Icemage has a point, to be honest.
11:43 <+by> Keskitalo: my remark was re the --more-- TODO item; your issue is different
11:43 <+due> But the numbers just need to be tweaked.
11:45 <+due> Oh.
11:45 <+due> they have been.
11:45 <+due> Ignore me.
11:45 <+greensnark> due: No, swim energy should be fine 
11:45 <+due> greensnark: Excellent.
11:48 <+due> So, what monsters should get immediate swim_energy tweaks? Ilsuiw, antaeus, hydras and merfolk?
11:49 < syllogism> 1/3000 or 1/4000 would be better
11:49 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2579-gf45e327 (16.1)
11:50 <+greensnark> syllogism: Well, if they farm they'll get there quick
11:50 <+greensnark> And past D:7 level-generation will use 1/5000 OODs, which should keep things lively
11:50 <+greensnark> I like the more aggressive OOD gen of 1/500 :P
11:51 <+greensnark> But I enjoy the early game more than most :P
11:51 <+due> greensnark is a freak. ;)
11:51 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf
11:51 <+greensnark> due: by likes early game too! <3
11:51 <+due> I love the early game, to be honest?
11:51 <+greensnark> Aha
11:52 <+greensnark> Now the confessions begin
11:52 <+due> Hence the ;).
11:52 <+greensnark> "I have a secret early-game fetish"
11:53 <+by> yes
11:53 <+due> greensnark: Also, thank you so much; the ditem stuff works perfectly!
11:54 <+due> greensnark: Can you think of any sane way for dLua to convert a non-ditem item into ditem, if ... oh, never mind.
11:54 <+greensnark> You're welcome, you did all the work anyway :)
11:54 <+due> It just needs a "convert_to_dlua" that's assert_dlua.
11:54 <+due> Which pushes a that item with a new metatable using push_ditem! Hooray!
11:54 <+due> I understand! I see the light!
11:54  * due is blinded.
11:55  * greensnark tranquilizes due.
11:55 <+due> :)
11:57 < syllogism> found the perfect scummy spot :P
11:58 < CIA-81> by * rac585e081608 /crawl-ref/source/ (spells2.cc spells2.h): item_is_snakable: Whether an item is suitable for Sticks to Snakes.
11:58 < CIA-81> by * rdb2f87eebcab /crawl-ref/source/l_item.cc: item.snakable: Lua binding for item_is_snakable.
11:58 < CIA-81> by * r05e793241f23 /crawl-ref/source/dat/lua/stash.lua: Annotate snakable items with "stick" for the stash tracker.
11:58 <+sorear> snackable!
11:58 <+greensnark> Don't make me hungry, people
11:58 <+greensnark> Terrible things happen when I get hungry :P
11:59 <+sorear> Do these things involve Crawl hacking
11:59 <+due> ... do they?
11:59 <+greensnark> Not at work, no :P
11:59 <+due> Damn.
11:59 <+greensnark> Well, not major hackin, no :P
11:59 <+sorear> oh, so they do cause minor hacking?
11:59 <+greensnark> Can I give quokkas bolt of draining breath?
12:00 <+due> Been there, done that.
12:00  * sorear wafts a slice of pizza under greensnark's nose
12:00 <+greensnark> I think it would round them out neatly
12:00 <+sorear> greensnark: I think they'd overlap too much with red rats
12:00 <+greensnark> Oh, right
12:00 <+due> http://allyscurrypalace.co.uk/site/images/cdeals/pakora1.jpg
12:00 <+greensnark> Hellfire breath?
12:00 <+due> You knooow you want to.
12:01 < Twinge> give it to capybara instead
12:01 <+due> To be honest, a rat monster with draining breath sounds like a cool idea.
12:01 <+sorear> greensnark: teleportation and breeding maybe
12:01 <+greensnark> There's a place 2m walk from here with awesome pakoras
12:01  * greensnark is back in a bit.
12:01 <+due> Bring me some.
12:01 <+greensnark> That's "2 minutes", not miles
12:01 <+sorear> 2 meter? mile?
12:01 <+sorear> ah
12:01 -!- Kyrris [n=1@c-67-186-34-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit []
12:01 <+due> I haven't had pakora in two years?
12:01 <+due> Hm.
12:02 <+due> You know... my kitchen is only a half a minute walk. Do I want to make pakora?
12:02 < syllogism> storm dragon skeleton
12:02 <+due> syllogism: I did that in Ice Caves: ice dragon skeletons that breathe frost.
12:03 < syllogism> I mean there's one on d1 :P
12:03 <+due> Oh.
12:04 <+due> Okay.
12:04 <+Keskitalo> by: Ah alright, I'll clarify that in a bit. Thanks! (I'll add some more info too - I only tested on CDO, I'll check it out on Windows tiles too)
12:04 < scarf> the Abyss is so beautiful, it makes the rest of the game boring in comparison
12:04 <+due> Frogs, hydra, merfolk, snakes, Antaeus...
12:04 <+due> scarf: Even my portal vaults? :(
12:04 < scarf> due: which ones? I might not have found them
12:05 <+sorear> <3 Abyss
12:05 <+due> scarf: WizLabs.
12:05 <+sorear> my favorite level too
12:05 < scarf> due: I haven't found one, then
12:05 < scarf> the abyss would be even better if it deliberately picked monsters with a similar colour to that of the level, by the way
12:05 < scarf> although that wouldn't really work on tiles
12:06 < syllogism> well it kind of does
12:06 <+due> Yeah. Tiles is always a struggle.
12:06 < scarf> am I going to have to recompile for tiles just to see what the abyss looks like in them?
12:06 < scarf> or can someone describe it to me?
12:06 <+due> I've never been in Abyss.
12:06 <+due> In tiles.
12:07 <+due> scarf: Pandemonium picks colours based on monsters. :)
12:07 < scarf> heh
12:07 < scarf> hmm, Crawl has a shortage of really open levels
12:07 <+due> Okay. Slugs.
12:07 < scarf> I dream about things like a Plains branch full of centaurs
12:07 <+due> Speed bonus in water?
12:07 < scarf> maybe I should implement it
12:08 <+sorear> due: np
12:08 <+sorear> no
12:08 <+due> Giant newt?
12:08 <+due> And komodo dragon?
12:08 < scarf> hmm, unlikely to come up very often for newts, but it would make sense if they did
12:09 <+due> Okay.
12:09 < scarf> and it's hardly going to make a big gameplay difference either way
12:09 < scarf> (Crawl doesn't have a Dudley, does it?)
12:09 <+due> What SWIM_ENERGY() value should we be using to duplicate the  previous speed bonus?
12:09 <+sorear> 6
12:10 <+sorear> exacrtly
12:10 <+due> Ah, thank you.
12:10 <+due> SWIM_ENERGY(8) = slow in water than 6, yeah?
12:10 <+due> Because it's using 8/10 instead of 6/10 energy.
12:11 <+sorear> yes
12:12 < Twinge> scarf: Brand full of centaurs?  The vaults are not enough for you??
12:13 < scarf> Twinge: it's not really the centaurs, more the openness
12:13 < scarf> it just seemed like a plausible place for centaurs to live
12:13 < Twinge> Vestibule is rather open
12:13 < scarf> ideally it would be just the one level, but infinitely wide
12:13 < scarf> and you could play a spriggan and just run and run and run
12:14 < scarf> but then, people don't really like role-playing NetHack, even less so in Crawl I imagine
12:14 <+due> scarf: there is a proposal for an open branch
12:14 < Adeon> infinity <3
12:15 <+due> scarf: A desert-based replacement for Crypt
12:15 < scarf> desert could work
12:15 <+due> Hm.
12:17 <+due> Should I be tweaking swim speed for turtles?
12:18 <+due> Ah, no, that already tweaks swim speed...
12:18 <+due> !tell greensnark What should be done about snapping turtles? Left as-is regards swim speed?
12:18 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let greensnark know.
12:18 <+due> Ugly things get no speed bonus, as far as I'm concerned?
12:19 <+due> sorear?
12:20 <+due> I'm also going to make sea snakes faster in water.
12:24 <+sorear> yes
12:24 <+due> Ooh, there are desert iguanas.
12:25 <+due> I wish real life were as interesting as crawl monsters.
12:26 <+greensnark> due: Turtles should get speed boost in water, yes
12:26 < Henzell> greensnark: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
12:26 <+due> greensnark: Snapping turtles have a weird action energy.
12:26 <+due> whereas alligator snapping turtles do not
12:26 <+greensnark> Action energy doesn't apply to swimming
12:27 <+greensnark> It applies to attacking
12:27 <+greensnark> Or spellcasting and stuff which turtles don't
12:27 <+due> Ah, you're right.
12:27 <+due> Easy to adapt it to work for that, thoguh.
12:27 <+due> Though I should just make a new one.
12:27 <+greensnark> You can just combine them with |
12:28 <+due> Oh, you can?
12:28 <+due> I didn't realise this.
12:28 <+greensnark> ACTION_ENERGY(8) | SWIM_ENERGY(6)
12:28  * due dumb.
12:29 <+due>     mon_energy_usage operator | (const mon_energy_usage &o) const
12:29  * due did not read this far. :(
12:31 <+due> Okay, awesome..
12:32 <+due> greensnark: I'm also making sea snakes SWIM_ENERGY(4). Sound good?
12:32 <+greensnark> Nasty :)
12:32 <+greensnark> I like it
12:32 <+due> I knoooow.
12:32 <+greensnark> So they're effectively speed 30 in water :P
12:33 <+due> Shh, don't tell
12:33 <+due> You just don't fight them in water.
12:33 <+greensnark> Nobody fights them in water, yeah :)
12:33 <+due> Hm.
12:33 <+due> Part of the issue with habits is habitat to grid.
12:33 <+due> I've made the primary for amphibious land, and the secondary water.
12:34 <+due> Is this going to be okay for merfolk?
12:34 <+greensnark> Yes
12:34 <+greensnark> The only extra detail is the submerging flag if any
12:34 <+greensnark> Presumably water damage bonus is removed, in which case you should also remove it from player merfolk
12:34 <+due> I'm just changing that.
12:35 <+due> Amphibious first, then submerging is goin gto be a class flag.
12:35 <+due> Next, water damage boni will go bye-bye.
12:35 <+greensnark> Is "boni" a word :P
12:35 <+due> Yes
12:35 <+due> bon.i                ADJ    1 1 NOM P M POS             
12:35 <+due> bon.i                ADJ    1 1 VOC P M POS             
12:35 <+due> bonus, bona -um, melior -or -us, optimus -a -um  ADJ   [XXXAO]  
12:35 <+due> good, honest, brave, noble, kind, pleasant, right, useful; valid; h
12:35 <+due> boni is the nominative plural masculine form of the adjective bonus.
12:36 <+due> It's the proper plural of bonus. :)
12:36 <+greensnark> Maybe, but in English you'd write bonuses :P
12:36 < scarf> was in Latin
12:36 <+due> Octopi?
12:36 < scarf> words can change plurals when they change languages
12:36 < scarf> although don't always
12:37 <+greensnark> English is irregular like that
12:37 <+due> Boni is an acceptable plural.
12:37 <+due> As I tell a lot of people, penii is not.
12:37 < scarf> (I love the arguments about whether the plural of "Unix" is "Unixen" or "Unices")
12:37 <+greensnark> WHo uses "penii" :P
12:37 <+due> "penes" is the proper plural of "penis".
12:37 < Ashenzari> Autopickup not working (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=507) by Eifeltrampel
12:37 <+due> A surprisingly large number of people that I know think "penii" is cool and correct.
12:39 <+due> How many more class flags can we stuff in?
12:39 < scarf> I don't get why you'd be going around pluralising "penis" anyway
12:39 <+due> It's at 1<<31; is that the limit, or is 1<<32?
12:39 <+due> Oh, there's a spare.
12:40 <+greensnark> 1<<31 is the max for 32-bit
12:40 <+due> Hm
12:40 <+due> But there's no reason why we can't increase the size of mons_class_flags, right?
12:40 < scarf> (1<<32)-1 is the max for unsigned, (1<<31)-1 for signed
12:40 <+due> It's an unsigned long at the minute.
12:41 <+greensnark> scarf: We're talking about bit flags, not numbers
12:41 < scarf> hmm, next size up is long long, and not all compilers support it
12:41 < scarf> greensnark: ah
12:41 <+due> Maybe not, then? Bah.
12:41 <+due> Maybe we need to dump some flags.
12:42 <+greensnark> M_NO_WAND and M_NO_HT_WAND :P
12:42 <+due> :p
12:42 <+greensnark> Or we can keep M_TWOWEAPON out
12:42 < scarf> you could check all the compilers that Crawl's meant to support to see if they handle long long, I suppose
12:42 <+due> It's sane and it makes sense and it stops uniques of low levels getting hight-tier flame wands if you want to give them a large HD.
12:42 <+greensnark> There's such a small number of two-weaponers that using a flag for them is unnecessary
12:42 <+greensnark> due: I don't mean removing the functionality
12:43 <+due> True.
12:43 <+greensnark> I mean moving the check into a function that checks for specific monster types
12:43 <+due> But otherwise it's hardcoded and annoying?
12:43 <+due> But you're right, they could/should go.
12:43 <+greensnark> Or we can use extended monster flags, just add another enum
12:43 <+greensnark> But that tends to be messy :P
12:43 <+due> scarf: What's the difference between unsigned long long and uint_64?
12:44 < scarf> due: uint_64_t is always exactly 64 bits, unsigned long long is at least 64 bits
12:44 <+greensnark> uint_64t should exist on all the gccs we care about
12:44 <+due> Ah.
12:44 <+greensnark> But best not to rely on it if we can avoid it
12:44 < scarf> also, the first requires a C99 header
12:44 <+greensnark> stdint, yeah
12:44 < scarf> whereas the second, while required by C99 compilers, is often supported by other compilers too
12:44 <+due> greensnark: We already use uint64_t, no?
12:44 <+greensnark> We already use stdint
12:44 <+greensnark> Do we use uint64_t somewhere?
12:45 <+due> It's in random.cc; not sure if it's actually used.
12:45 < felirx> msvc and gcc use different names for those
12:45 <+greensnark> uint32_t is what we use
12:46 <+greensnark> I don't know if we care sufficiently about platforms that can't handle 64-bit ints
12:46 <+greensnark> I also don't know what C++ thinks about enum constants that need 64-bits
12:46 < scarf> it's a case of compilers, not platforms
12:46 <+greensnark> sorear: ^^ thoughts?
12:46 < scarf> most compilers are happy to emulate 64 bits if needed
12:46 <+greensnark> scarf: Well, I mean compiler-as-platform
12:46 <+greensnark> I suppose I should be clearer
12:47 <+due> Well, it's not really important at the minute, because there's still a free flag for classes  that I can use for M_SUBMERGES.
12:47 <+greensnark> But I'd rather just toss the M_ flags that are used by one or two monsters only
12:47 <+due> M_INVIS, M_NO_WANT, M_NO_HT_WAND...
12:47 <+greensnark> M_ARCHER, M_TWO_WEAPON are used by very few monsters
12:47 <+due> What else? M_GLOWS? M_TWO_WEAPON and M_ARCHER?
12:47 <+due> And possibly M_ACID_SPLASH.
12:47 < felirx> unsigned __int64 for msvc, uint64_t for gcc if you care
12:47 <+greensnark> But don't remove them right now if we have a spare
12:47 <+due> Oh, M_ACID_SPLASH is used a lot.
12:48 <+due> For some reason I thought that was TRJ-only.
12:48 <+due> M_BURROWS is only used by two, too.
12:48 <+due> Anyway.
12:48 < scarf> why is it stored in an int rather than a bitfield, by the way? historical reasons, or some other reason?
12:51 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@136.2.1.101] has joined ##crawl-dev
12:52 < Eifel> hi
12:52 <+due> Hey Eifel.
12:52 <+sorear> greensnark: POSIX mandates uint64_t exist
12:53 <+sorear> greensnark: MSVC | POSIX is the whole world, right?
12:53 < scarf> sorear: some POSIX is newer than others, though
12:53 <+sorear> greensnark: I would just do a flagset type, N-word vector
12:53 <+due> greensnark: Merfolk will never submerge now, right?
12:56 <+greensnark> Right
12:56 < felirx> gcc types, intel's compiler, msvc are probably the 99% of the compilers you'll find
12:56 <+due>     // FIXME, switch to 4.1's MF_SUBMERGED system which is much cleaner.
12:56 <+due>     // Can't find any reference to MF_SUBMERGED anywhere. Don't know what
12:56 <+due>     // this means. - abrahamwl
12:56 <+due> How cute. :)
12:56 <+greensnark> Merfolk should not submerge because submerging is exclusively the province of the lame :)
12:57 <+due> Okay.
12:57 <+due> Now we get to go down the list and delete some water creatures' ability to submerge.
12:57 <+greensnark> Well, unless we're fixing submergers to only submerge until first attack
12:57 <+due> Swamp worm?
12:59 < scarf> playing through the games, it seems as though submerging is designed to give a reason to play polearms
12:59 <+due> Tentables submerge?
13:00 <+greensnark> Don't let tentacles submerge
13:00 <+due> Gone.
13:00 <+greensnark> scarf: There was no design there, the two happened independently, and the polearm attacking water things is obscure and probably a misfeature
13:00 <+due> Making amphibious monsters submerge will now be difficult, but I think that's fine.
13:00 <+due> Maybe it should just not happen.
13:00 <+due> I'm going to nuke giant leeches from submerging.
13:02 <+due> Argh, mon-util.h hits 110 files?
13:02 <+greensnark> Have fun :P
13:02 <+due> I hate that.
13:03 <+greensnark> Is that Donald dialogue? :P
13:03 <+due> ... I have half a mind to add w:1 @The_monster@ says, "Recompiling everything? I hate that" to donald.
13:03 <+due> "Re-doing everything? I hate that." might be better and more to the point: re-doing the game after you die, recompiling...
13:05 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@166.137.5.160] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:06 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@166.137.5.160] has quit [Client Quit]
13:06 <+by> mon-util.h is far too large; when you're done, I'll try to split it up a bit
13:07 <+due> by: Please do, I'll kiss you.
13:07 <+due> I've got the water boni to kill next.
13:07 <+by> it won't help with enum changes though, probably
13:07 <+due> Probably not.
13:10 < syllogism> Was Donald inspired by Francis from left 4 dead
13:10 <+due> syllogism: I don't know, I think pointless had the original idea to do complaints while following the player around?
13:10 <+due> And then someone suggested (or I came up with the idea) to have the ccomplaints dependnent on branch, god, etc.
13:11 <+due> greensnark: How was your pakora, also?
13:13 <+due> !lm Silwyr
13:13 < Henzell> 68. [2010-01-22] Silwyr the Skirmisher (L7 MDFi) killed Duvessa on turn 4837. (D:5)
13:13 <+due> !lg Silwyr
13:13 < Henzell> 31. Silwyr the Skirmisher (L7 MDFi), blasted by Dowan (shard of ice) on D:5 on 2010-01-22, with 1101 points after 4854 turns and 0:22:50.
13:13 <+due> I love it.
13:14 <+greensnark> due: I had samosas
13:14 <+greensnark> Freshly made :P
13:15 <+due> ...
13:15 <+due> greensnark: Anyway, gloat with me! Dowan got a post-Duvessa death kill!
13:15 <+greensnark> Hasn't he been doing that a lot :)
13:15 <+due> !lg * killer=Dowan|Duvessa s=killer
13:15 < scarf> I haven't noticed any particular teamwork between Dowan and Duvessa, by the way
13:15 < Henzell> 87 games for * (killer=Dowan|Duvessa): 58x Duvessa, 28x Dowan, 1x Duvessa, the human
13:16 <+due> scarf: Yeah, it should be worked on.
13:16 < scarf> they spawn together, but that's about it
13:16 <+due> They're supposed to stick together.
13:16 <+due> Dowan will also haste Duvessa.
13:16 < scarf> and I normally kill them by baiting them into separating
13:16 < syllogism> too bad non-D OODs are pathetic
13:17 <+by> greensnark: do you know about extra mpr("") required on DOS?
13:18 <+due> Okay, trapdoor spiders work too.
13:18 < scarf> !lg * killer=uniq s=killer
13:18 < Henzell> 31590 games for * (killer=uniq): 14320x Sigmund, 5072x Jessica, 4164x Ijyb, 3459x Terence, 921x Blork the orc, 734x Prince Ribbit, 526x Erolcha, 494x Edmund, 145x Psyche, 142x Snorg, 132x Frederick, 114x Boris, 92x Margery, 81x Xtahua, 81x Crazy Yiuf, 68x Rupert, 61x Urug, 60x Norris, 58x Duvessa, 52x Agnes, 51x Harold, 51x Jozef, 50x Norbert, 50x Erica, 43x Antaeus, 38x Menkaure, 36x Tiamat, 32x ...
13:19 <+due> Crazy Yiuf's making his way up there!
13:19 <+due> As is Duvessa and Menkaure.
13:19 < scarf> any unique who isn't in that list needs buffing
13:19 < scarf> also, I wouldn't have expected to see Jessica second on that list
13:19 <+due> Jessica is one of the scariest uniques out, besides Sigmund, for early dungeon.
13:19 <+by> !lg * killer=uniq s=killer cv=0.6
13:19 <+due> greensnark: Where are the water attack bonuses hiding?
13:19 < Henzell> 1268 games for * (killer=uniq cv=0.6): 313x Sigmund, 138x Terence, 102x Ijyb, 81x Crazy Yiuf, 81x Prince Ribbit, 79x Jessica, 62x Blork the orc, 56x Duvessa, 36x Menkaure, 28x Gastronok, 26x Dowan, 25x Pikel, 18x Erolcha, 17x Jozef, 17x Nikola, 15x Purgy, 15x Rupert, 13x Harold, 13x Edmund, 11x Aizul, 11x Agnes, 10x Norbert, 10x Maud, 10x Erica, 8x Psyche, 8x Snorg, 7x Grum, 7x Frederick, 6x Mauri...
13:19 < scarf> I suppose it's a case of, if you prepare for Sigmund you're prepared for Jessica too
13:19 <+due> Hey, cool, all of my uniques are up there. :)
13:20 <+greensnark> due: fight.cc
13:20 <+due> !lg * ikiller=uniq s=killer cv=0.6
13:20 < Henzell> 1388 games for * (ikiller=uniq cv=0.6): 313x Sigmund, 138x Terence, 102x Ijyb, 81x Crazy Yiuf, 81x Prince Ribbit, 79x Jessica, 62x Blork the orc, 56x Duvessa, 40x a slave, 36x Menkaure, 28x Gastronok, 26x Dowan, 25x Pikel, 18x Erolcha, 17x Nikola, 17x Jozef, 15x Purgy, 15x Rupert, 13x Edmund, 13x Harold, 11x Agnes, 11x Aizul, 10x Maud, 10x Norbert, 10x Erica, 9x , 9x a war dog, 8x Snorg, 8x Psyche...
13:20 <+due> 40x a slave :)
13:20 <+greensnark> by: DOS cprintf needs \r\n instead of plain \n
13:20 < scarf> what's the difference between killer and ikiller?
13:20 <+due> scarf: ikiler checks the summon/lead chain.
13:20 <+due> scarf: Pikel's slaves are part of his band, so
13:20 <+due> !lg * ikiller=pikel s=killer
13:20 < Henzell> 65 games for * (ikiller=pikel): 40x a slave, 25x Pikel
13:20 <+by> so we don't need the mpr("") if we remember to use EOL instead of \n?
13:20 <+due> !lg * ikiller=pikel killer=slave
13:20 < Henzell> 40. minced the Skirmisher (L5 HOCr), mangled by a slave (led by Pikel) on D:3 on 2010-01-20, with 264 points after 5790 turns and 0:24:18.
13:21 <+greensnark> by: Yes, I think
13:21 <+by> ok, thanks
13:21 <+due> !lg * ikiller=pikel
13:21 < Henzell> 65. Eifeltrampel the Skirmisher (L6 MDPa), worshipper of The Shining One, slain by Pikel (a +2,+2 whip of flaming) on D:3 on 2010-01-22, with 620 points after 4294 turns and 0:24:32.
13:21 < scarf> !lg * ikiller=sonja s=turn
13:21 < Henzell> Bad arg 's=turn' - cannot summarise by turn
13:21 <+by> I'll remove that then, and fix the DOS bugs when they turn up
13:21 < scarf> !lg * ikiller=sonja s=xl
13:21 < Henzell> 8 games for * (ikiller=sonja): 3x 11, 3x 10, 1x 1, 1x 12
13:22 < scarf> hmm, Sonja, I'm disappointed in you
13:22 <+kilobyte> I still don't get the point why we support DOS at all.  There are some mythical platforms that can run DOS but not anything else but no one could name one.
13:22 < scarf> !lg * ikiller=uniq s=place
13:22 < Henzell> 31710 games for * (ikiller=uniq): 17077x D:2, 6588x D:3, 2490x D:4, 1821x D:5, 660x D:6, 518x D:1, 440x D:9, 246x D:7, 218x D:10, 209x D:11, 168x D:8, 96x D:12, 75x Snake:4, 59x Snake:3, 59x D:15, 55x D:13, 54x Snake:5, 54x Pan, 51x Snake:1, 42x Coc:7, 41x D:16, 40x Snake:2, 33x D:21, 31x D:14, 30x Swamp:4, 28x Swamp:5, 25x D:22, 24x D:17, 23x Swamp:2, 21x Vault:4, 20x Vault:7, 19x Vault:6, 19x D:...
13:23 <+due> 42x Coc:7.
13:23 <+due> I wonnder who *that* could be.
13:23 <+due> !killsby Murray
13:23 < Henzell> No games for * (ckiller=Murray).
13:23 <+kilobyte> people download the DOS binary because they think that console = DOS
13:23 <+due> :( Poor Murray.
13:23 < scarf> maybe because the windows console subsystem is really messy?
13:24 < scarf> try looking up the reason you can no longer copy-paste into a Windows terminal window, it's hilarious
13:24 <+kilobyte> no worse than Windows' emulation of DOS
13:24 < scarf> kilobyte: agreed
13:24 <+due> Okay, goodbye water attack bonus.
13:25 <+due> Oh, wait.
13:25 <+due> Does that mean swamp wworms will no longer get bonuses?
13:25 < scarf> hmm, no Unique kills in Lair at all?
13:25 < scarf> at least, not showing up on that top kills list?
13:25 <+due> Ah, they're all going.
13:25 < scarf> !lg * ikiller=uniq place=lair
13:25 <+due> !lg * killer=uniq br=Lair s=killer
13:25 < syllogism> there are some, but until recently there were almost no uniques in lair
13:25 <+due> Uniques in lair  are an 0.6 thing.
13:25 < scarf> ah
13:25 < Henzell> 40. bookofjude the Basher (L12 OgBe), worshipper of Trog, slain by Maud (a +2,+0 demon trident) on Lair:3 on 2010-01-22, with 16995 points after 19530 turns and 1:28:09.
13:25 < Henzell> 38 games for * (killer=uniq br=Lair): 9x Rupert, 7x Maud, 5x Gastronok, 4x Harold, 3x Jozef, 2x Erica, 1x Morun, 1x Bogdan, the orc priest, 1x Michael, 1x Duane, 1x Snorg, 1x Agnes, 1x Learuk, the orc knight, 1x Joseph
13:26 <+due> Adventuring uniques in Lair are a "in the past few weeks" thing.
13:26 <+due> Learuk is treated as a unique?
13:26 < syllogism> 4.1 had lair uniques :P
13:26 <+due> syllogism: But 4.1 != soup.
13:26 < syllogism> Maud would instakill you
13:26 < scarf> is Maud a reference to NetHack, or to the poem that NetHack's referencing, by the way?
13:27 <+due> The poem.
13:28 <+Zaba_> Learuk?
13:28 <+kilobyte> "Learuk, the orc knight"
13:28 <+Zaba_> ah.
13:28 <+due> Tennyson!
13:28 <+due> I was going to say Coleridge but I knew that wasn't right.
13:29 <+greensnark> Albatrosses in Shoals
13:29 <+due> Hehehe.
13:31 < CIA-81> by * rfcfcb486ba20 /crawl-ref/source/stuff.cc: Move display_message_window() to the end of redraw_screen().
13:31 < CIA-81> by * ra3504a65baae /crawl-ref/source/ (stash.cc stash.h): Save stash tracker reply to stash tracker.
13:32 <+by> too bad I can't ammend pushed commit messages
13:32 <+due> Yeah.
13:32 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@189.114.79.146] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:32 <+due> I hate that, especially if I notice it just when I commit it.
13:32 <+due> Okay.
13:33 <+due> greensnark: About to push the changes. Any comments before I do so?
13:33 <+kilobyte> you can delete master then re-push it, but if anyone pulled in between, it will be a mess
13:33 <+due> greensnark: Quick summary: goodbye HT_AMPHIBIOUS_LAND, WATER, hello HT_AMPHIBIOUS.
13:33 <+due> greensnark: Swimming bonus is per-monster, rather than for amphibious. Submerging is per-monster wtih M_SUBMERGES. Water attack bonus is gone.
13:33 <+by> how hard would it be to build the DOS port on a mac; can I run it in DOSBox?
13:33 <+greensnark> due: Push it, if it needs tweaks, we'll make the changes
13:34 <+due> Pushed.
13:34 <+greensnark> by: It would be pretty rocky, so I wouldn't bother
13:34 <+due> Slime creature sshould probably be SWIM_ENERGY(12) or so.
13:34 < CIA-81> due * r445a01597390 /crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc fight.h): Remove monster and player water attack bonus.
13:35  * due kicks ci	.
13:35 <+due> ... CIA-81.
13:37 <+kilobyte> interesting literal tab :p
13:37 <+due> Lag.
13:37 <+due> Did that commit actualy go through properly?
13:38 <+kilobyte> the last commit in is the one CIA-81 announced at 13:34
13:39 <+due> Huh.
13:39 <+due> Can isomeone pull and make sur ethere are three commits?
13:39 <+kilobyte> there are
13:39 <+due> Ah, good.
13:39 <+due> Weird that they didn't go through.
13:40 <+kilobyte> it's a common thing, expect them to show up in an hour or so
13:41 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Connection timed out]
13:46 <+due> Okay: random chance of many_pools level being clusters of trees instead. Yes/no?
13:47 < Xiberia> do said pools house electric eels
13:48 < Xiberia> then hell yes, go crazy with the trees!
13:50 <+kilobyte> need dropbears
13:57 <+due> Okay, so this means that the large many_pools  levels can sometimes be trees.
14:00 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r75be38c6a437 /crawl-ref/source/viewmap.cc: Don't allow exclusions in labyrinths.
14:03 < CIA-81> by * r9af02c492aa6 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Fix --more-- prompts not being flushed.
14:04 <+due> Stupid CIA.
14:05 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:10 < CIA-81> due * r60ebd32f1739 /crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/iter.lua: Generate an error for no markers on Lua slave iterator.
14:10 < CIA-81> due * r2529c57241ec /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Very occasionally use _many_pools with Trees instead.
14:12 < Mu_> due -- did you finish ozocubu, iskenderun and cekugob yet !?
14:12 <+due> Iskenderun is done
14:12 <+due> I gave up on Cekugob
14:12 < Mu_> D:
14:12 <+due> And I'm still working Ozocubu over in my head.
14:14 < Mu_> :|
14:14 <+due> But I have a working idea in my head, so it's okay!
14:14 < Mu_> i believe in you
14:14 < Mu_> maybe i'll try cekgob again later
14:14 <+due> Please do! My ideas for randomly generated just looked terrible.
14:15 <+due> I like the idea of having like... tetris bit-shapes in squares or circles that are randomly placed, and ensuring  tha tthere's a path between them.
14:15 <+due> Like 4x4 blocks with paths cut randomly through.
14:16 <+due> That's possibly workable.
14:19 -!- ortoslon [n=zoob@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:19 <+by> due: are you done with mon-util.h for the moment?
14:19 <+due> by: For the foreseeable future, at least.
14:19 <+due> Tomorrow is Troves, which means finishing the dlua items, and the play-testing post.
14:20 <+due> I'm still undecided as to whether or not I should do "Honey, I shrunk the temple" or "Down and out with the dungeon builders".
14:20 <+by> it's just aboaut the next half hour or so -- don't want to cause merge conflicts
14:20 <+due> Ah, I'm literally just goin gto bed. :)
14:22 <+due> Goodnight, folk!
14:22 <+by> good night
14:27 -!- Timbermaw_ [n=riquez60@200.175.209.46.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:30 < ortoslon> i love the health and mana minibars near character tile
14:31 < ortoslon> but the mana minibar needs to be lighter
14:31 < ortoslon> it blends with the dungeon
14:34 < Timbermaw_> i never noticed
14:34 < Timbermaw_> you play tiles?
14:36 < ortoslon> yes
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15:00 < Mu_> !tell due ask me about my cekugob map
15:00 < Henzell> Mu_: OK, I'll let due know.
15:09 -!- Timbermaw_ is now known as Timbermaw
15:12 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r0ea43b2706b5 /crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Mention artefactness of unidentified artefacts in their description.
15:12 < scarf> Mu_: I misread that
15:12 < scarf> and thought that someone had made a unique oklob
15:12 < CIA-81> due * re6389b48e107 /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-place.cc mon-util.h monster.cc): Unlink habitat and submerging.
15:20 <+kilobyte> Mu_: what would you think about rolling boulder traps in Cekugob?
15:21 < Mu_> not sure
15:22 < Mu_> have they been proposed already?
15:24 <+kilobyte> in passing; I don't know of any actual writeups
15:24 < Mu_> might be fun :)
15:25 < Mu_> i'll see what due thinks of having them in cekugob
15:28 <+kilobyte> !tell due What would you think about rolling boulder traps in Cekugob?
15:28 < Henzell> kilobyte: OK, I'll let due know.
15:28 < CIA-81> due * r97508e645b8f /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-util.cc mon-util.h monster.cc wiz-mon.cc): Merge HT_AMPHIBIOUS_WATER/LAND, remove amphibious speed boni.
15:32 <+kilobyte> yay... 1h 54m after the commit, and CIA caught up
15:35 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-102-58-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
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15:53 < Ashenzari> SS trunk f45e327 : enchant armour bug (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=508) by Karagy
16:02 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r66c4191b1c42 /crawl-ref/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Add options to control showing the minibars on the player tile.
16:04 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away
16:10 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:17 < CIA-81> by * rb00a92348e70 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Update message.cc TODO list.
16:17 < CIA-81> by * r69801c3c6f1e /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-enum.h mon-util.h): Move enums from mon-util.h to mon-enum.h.
16:17 < CIA-81> by * rfb00b0435195 /crawl-ref/source/ (actor.h fight.cc fight.h monster.h player.h): Move monster casts from melee_attack to actor.
16:17 < CIA-81> by * rff178309a783 /crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Replace print_formatted_paragraph by mpr.
16:17 < CIA-81> by * r74872017b2b0 /crawl-ref/source/ (19 files): Update includes after the mon-util.h split.
16:17 < CIA-81> by * rc246f8a975e9 /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.h mon_resist_def.h): Split mon_resist_def out of mon-util.h.
16:17 < CIA-81> by * r4911b061717b /crawl-ref/source/ (makefile.obj mon-util.cc mon_resist_def.cc): Move mon_resist_def implementation to mon_resist_def.cc.
16:18 < Ashenzari> SH recalculation (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=509) by Karagy
16:29 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."]
16:43 < Napkin> Sigmund is back! http://crawl.develz.org/info/
16:43 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@169.236.122.209] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:44 < Napkin> And, learndb info is now parsed from the local rsync copy :) faster!
16:44 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:44 <+greensnark> Napkin: Yay :)
16:44 < Napkin> 500% speed-up, I'd say :D
16:45 <+greensnark> Not surprising :)
16:45 <+greensnark> Do you dump all bad ideas now? :P
16:46 < Napkin> hehe, we could :D
16:49 <+by> how do I resolve an invalid bug report? "no change required"?
16:49 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf
16:51 <+greensnark> notrepro if it's not reproducible
16:52 <+greensnark> or no-change-required if it's just flat wrong, I guess
16:52 < scarf> is the report wrong as in not happening
16:52 < scarf> or wrong as in not a bug?
16:52 < scarf> those should be notrepo and nochange respectively, I think
17:02 <+doy> there's a "won't fix" too
17:02 <+doy> that's what i usually use for "i disagree with the premise behind this report"
17:03 <+doy> 'no change required' for "it already works this way, what are you talking about"
17:03 <+doy> and 'not reproducable' for "it doesn't already work this way, what are you talking about"
17:05 <+doy> also, i like the idea of monsters using submerging as a way to sneak up on the player, unsubmerging to attack
17:05 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r9af80fca276a /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/animals/hog_player.png: Replace player hog tile with one based on Porkchop's creation. Thanks!
17:05 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r5495fc57daf0 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (9 files in 3 dirs): Move transformation tiles into their own folder player/transform.
17:29 < Ashenzari> shift-moving in levelmap misbehaves near the border (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=510) by rob
17:31 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:31 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
17:31 <@dpeg> cheers
17:31 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
17:31 <@dpeg> !messages
17:31 < Henzell> (1/2) due said (12h 31m 33s ago): Will do. I plan to do Troves, amphibious creatures, and crocodile rename tonight.
17:31 <@dpeg> !messages
17:31 < Henzell> (1/1) bhaak said (8h 43m 42s ago): some preliminary results for the nethack poll. I'm still doing categorization of all the answers. hope to have this finished by this week-end. http://manyeyes.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/users/Patric+Mueller
17:32 <@dpeg> !tell Anym http://manyeyes.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/users/Patric+Mueller
17:32 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let Anym know.
17:32 <@dpeg> !seen due
17:32 < Henzell> I last saw due at Fri Jan 22 13:22:06 2010 UTC (3h 10m 18s ago) saying Goodnight, folk! on ##crawl-dev.
17:33 <+doy> hmmm, randomizing the starting and ending points for the spawning ramp down might be a decent idea
17:37 <@dpeg> doy: good idea
17:37 <+doy> was tgw's idea, on mantis
17:37 <+doy> (:
17:39 <@dpeg> !seen greensnark 
17:39 < Henzell> I last saw greensnark at Fri Jan 22 15:52:10 2010 UTC (47m 48s ago) saying or no-change-required if its just flat wrong, I guess on ##crawl-dev.
17:40 <@dpeg> !tell greensnark Do you think randomising the OOD ramps (start/end) is worth it?
17:40 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let greensnark know.
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18:01  * Keskitalo stretches
18:06 <+Keskitalo> Maybe we should branch 0.6 and future development already to keep new features from creeping in? :)
18:07 <+Zaba_> perhaps somebody else could implement the ac nerf, if it's taking so long for whoever wanted to do it..
18:08 <+doy> sounds like that's asking for a really painful merge once 0.6 gets released
18:08 <+doy> considering the amount of code churn we tend to get
18:08 <+doy> Zaba_: i think we're back to making progress on that now
18:08 < syllogism> the main ac nerf is really simple to do, you literally change just one number :P
18:08 < syllogism> I think
18:08 <+Zaba_> ah, okay
18:09 < syllogism> there are other formulas that are being changed though
18:09 <+Zaba_> well, I was referring to the whole ac/ev/armour nerf
18:11 <+Keskitalo> doy: Well, I was thinking of people committing the applicable changes to both branches. (Which should be painful too, though in smaller doses.)
18:11 < Twinge> The difference between -4EV armor and -5EV+ for spellcasting seemed rather excessive to me, but otherwise the formulas mostly seemed okay.  (Though also not sure on the new GDR yet)
18:12 < syllogism> the differences aren't very big as long as you meet str requirements
18:14 < Twinge> Yes - but those requirements hit harder than they should IMO.  Seems like part of that should be transfered over to the armor skill
18:15 < Twinge> Don't get me wrong, it's good to have more reason to get Strength on say Spriggans, but it still feels like the current new settings have it tweaked a little too high of an impact.  And I'm not talking about making GDA reasonable or anything :)
18:15 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@ip102.148.adsl.wplus.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev
18:15 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba] by ChanServ
18:18 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@169.236.122.209] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
18:19 < CIA-81> by * r5ae694d0e69e /crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Fix beam drawing in the wrong place.
18:19 < Twinge> In some cases you're looking at e.g. Very Good -> Useless with the old formula versus the new
18:20 < CIA-81> by * rd4435c8b8bed /crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Redraw SH for strength change.
18:21 < Twinge> And with high str and crap armor skill (instead of the other way around) it's more like Very Good -> Good
18:24 < Ashenzari> Consolidate coordinate system transformations. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=511) by rob
18:24 <+by> Keskitalo: actually, I thought I'd updated the TODO list in the item myself; also, it still doesn't seem to have updated...
18:30 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
18:31 <+Keskitalo> by: I think I did manage to update it, but probably not from a fresh pull.
18:31 <+Keskitalo> by: Did so via "Update Issue" - try now?
18:32 <+Keskitalo> ...
18:32 <+Keskitalo> I probably "updated" it to the older one :D
18:33 <+Keskitalo> by: Looks like it. Sorry, I'll revert. :)
18:38 <+by> Keskitalo: looks good now
18:39 < Ashenzari> More helpful and unified scrolling prompts for formatted_scroller. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=512) by rob
18:46 <+greensnark> !tell dpeg I don't think it's necessary to randomise the OOD ramps. I don't see any exploitable mechanic there; randomising will just make players exit the level at the lower end of the random range.
18:46 < Henzell> greensnark: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
18:46 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
18:46 < scarf> greensnark: you know someone will try to farm OODs...
18:46 <+greensnark> So?
18:46 <+greensnark> How does randomising change this?
18:47 <+greensnark> There's a hard end to any farming they can do, which solves the mummy farming issue as far as I can see
18:47 <+doy> hmmm, you know
18:48 <+doy> hells and pan don't even need to be exempt from the rampdown thing
18:48 <+greensnark> Yes
18:48 <+doy> since there are an infinite number of pan levels, and hell has hell effects
18:49 <+greensnark> Hells are not a major problem in terms of farming, since it can't be scripted effectively when you're going to land in the Abyss every so often
18:49 <+doy> yes
18:49 <+greensnark> Pan levels can be farmed
18:49 <+greensnark> But stopping spawns in Pan levels just means the player moves to the next Pan level
18:49 <+greensnark> Unless we stop spawns in Pan altogether
18:49 <+greensnark> That still allows the player to move on and use the non-respawn monsters
18:50 <+doy> right, so we may as well make it consistent
18:51 <+doy> also, dpeg has supported the idea for a while of making pan levels get increasingly difficult, the more you visit
18:51 <+greensnark> Difficult in what way
18:51 <+doy> not sure, higher hd pan lords was part of it at least, i think
18:52 < scarf> increasing the spawn rate and number of initial monsters would work
18:54 < Twinge> It doesn't actually need to be consistent here, though - Pan and the Abyss, at least, are clearly special areas and it is pretty understandable if the spawns never drop off there.
18:54 <+doy> well, sure, it could go either way
18:54 < Twinge> Seems lke not a big deal either way probably
18:54 <+doy> i'd just be in favor of consistency, if it's not going to make a difference
18:55 <+doy> but yeah, not a big deal
18:55 < Twinge> Fair.
19:03 <@dpeg> an old idea of mine was that monster generation should ramp up in Abyss (use total time spent there) whereas for Pan, difficulty of random demons would increase with total time spent
19:03 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
19:03 < CIA-81> by * r16ddaad714a3 /crawl-ref/source/cio.cc: Change cursorxy to always use screen coordinates.
19:03 <@dpeg> but Erik blocked this, saying that Pan is intentionally scummable
19:05 <+doy> dpeg: is the pan overhaul a possibility for 0.7, do you think?
19:06 <@dpeg> doy: yes, would be
19:06 <@dpeg> just need to agree on something
19:06 <@dpeg> and Erik effectively vetoed the thing
19:06 <+doy> yeah, should probably move that fr over to the wiki
19:06 <@dpeg> and I'd rather spent my discussion time with him on the Temple system (which he also wanted to keep as is)
19:10 <@dpeg> Twinge: in general, it seems best for a new effect to be meaningful before we water it down
19:10 <@dpeg> this is why we should keep the effect of Str on AEVP as in the proposal (and in fact, syllogism suggested to use 4 instead of 39
19:10 <@dpeg> 3)
19:11 <+doy> ac nerf is the last remaining feature for 0.6, right?
19:13 <@dpeg> yes
19:13 <@dpeg> there's still a lot of polish, of course
19:13 <@dpeg> and
19:13 <+doy> yes
19:13 <@dpeg> !seen henryci
19:13 < Henzell> I last saw henryci at Thu Jan 21 21:59:56 2010 UTC (20h 13m 44s ago) quitting without a message.
19:16 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away
19:17 <+doy> things that still need cleaning up before release include: new message window stuff, ^O screen, ballistos, ds mutations, finish drawing new tiles, possibly a few tweaks to the new rod stuff
19:17 <+doy> along with various minor bug fixes
19:17 <@dpeg> doy: well, there are still some open ends: DS, noise, div items
19:17 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf
19:17 <+doy> ah, div stuff too
19:17 <+doy> forgot about that
19:17 <@dpeg> doy: we can work without new div items, but I don't know
19:17 <@dpeg> would have been nice to have the div god, too
19:17 <@dpeg> I hope he doesn't get lost 
19:18 <+doy> at this point, that should probably be 0.7
19:18 <@dpeg> yes
19:18 <@dpeg> we need testing and polish for the new gods already
19:19 <+doy> fedhas seems to be getting a reasonable amount of attention so far
19:19 <+doy> i still have heard very little about jivya
19:19 <@dpeg> yes, Fedhas is cool and interesting
19:19 < Napkin> Nabend guys!
19:19 <@dpeg> I am not sure if Che has an audience beyond Nagas at the moment
19:19 <@dpeg> Hallooooo!
19:20 <+doy> oh, and i've heard even less about che
19:20 <+doy> !lg * cv=0.6 s=-god
19:20 < Henzell> 15585 games for * (cv=0.6): 36x Jiyva, 43x Beogh, 50x Feawn, 79x Nemelex Xobeh, 83x Elyvilon, 147x Fedhas, 148x Cheibriados, 166x Yredelemnul, 178x Kikubaaqudgha, 180x Lugonu, 234x The Shining One, 302x Xom, 316x Sif Muna, 324x Vehumet, 496x Okawaru, 501x Makhleb, 516x Zin, 714x Trog, 11072x 
19:20 <+Keskitalo> Heyaa heyaa!
19:20 <+doy> getting about as much play as fedhas, at least
19:20 -!- by [n=rob@g225126085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
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19:21 <+doy> !lg * god=fedhas s=xl
19:21 < Henzell> 147 games for * (god=fedhas): 18x 9, 17x 10, 16x 4, 15x 8, 12x 12, 12x 5, 11x 7, 8x 11, 7x 6, 5x 2, 4x 14, 4x 13, 3x 27, 3x 18, 3x 1, 2x 15, 2x 16, 1x 17, 1x 3, 1x 21, 1x 23, 1x 26
19:21 <+doy> !lg * god=cheibriados s=xl
19:21 < Henzell> 148 games for * (god=cheibriados): 27x 9, 19x 8, 17x 10, 17x 7, 10x 11, 10x 6, 9x 12, 7x 4, 6x 5, 5x 14, 5x 3, 4x 13, 3x 15, 2x 18, 2x 27, 1x 19, 1x 1, 1x 20, 1x 16, 1x 2
19:21 <+doy> people seem to be less successful with che though
19:22 < Xiberia> cause you need to be naga
19:22 < Xiberia> well, "need"
19:23 <+doy> i'd think that ponderousify would mitigate a lot of that need
19:23 <+doy> but i haven't actually tried it seriously
19:23 <+doy> !lg * ktyp=winning god=cheibriados s=name
19:23 < Henzell> No games for * (ktyp=winning god=cheibriados).
19:24 <+doy> !lg * ktyp=winning god=fedhas s=name
19:24 < Henzell> 3 games for * (ktyp=winning god=fedhas): 1x Omniguy, 1x heteroy, 1x pointless
19:24 <+doy> !lg * ktyp=winning god=cheibriados max=xl
19:24 < Henzell> No games for * (ktyp=winning god=cheibriados max=xl).
19:24 <+doy> !lg * god=cheibriados max=xl
19:24 < Henzell> 148. Zippy the Destroyer (L27 NaRe), worshipper of Cheibriados, splashed by acid on Slime:6 on 2009-11-15, with 488772 points after 130628 turns and 6:53:19.
19:24 <+doy> !lg * god=cheibriados max=xl -2
19:24 < Henzell> 147. 78291 the Ninja (L27 NaWr), worshipper of Cheibriados, blasted by a greater mummy (divine providence) in Zig:25 on 2009-12-09, with 587370 points after 165951 turns and 9:22:47.
19:24 <+doy> !lg * god=cheibriados s=race
19:24 < Henzell> 148 games for * (god=cheibriados): 67x Naga, 19x Demonspawn, 16x Ogre, 11x Mummy, 10x Mountain Dwarf, 7x Troll, 5x Kobold, 2x Sludge Elf, 2x Deep Elf, 2x Vampire, 1x Minotaur, 1x Halfling, 1x Merfolk, 1x Hill Orc, 1x High Elf, 1x Deep Dwarf, 1x Spriggan
19:27 < Napkin> *** Update about Knowledge Bots website (http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?page_id=214): LearnDB is now mirrored and parsing the entries is done locally. Much faster! Links in Henzell entries are now clickable. Colors have been slightly adjusted and screenshot of Sigmund added :) ***
19:27 < Timbermaw> hello, question: do enchantments like confusion, petrify, paralisys and sleep (for example) have different to-hit ratios?
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19:33 < Twinge_> Kind of depends on how important Slouch (did that get renamed yet?) is to the overall usefullness of Chei
19:34 < Twinge_> That is clearly drastically better with Nagas; otherwise any non-Centaur non-Spriggan should be reasonable
19:37 < Mu_> random2(10) is 0-9, right?
19:37 <+doy> yes
19:37 < Mu_> ty
19:38 -!- kerio92 [n=kerio92@unaffiliated/kerio92] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:38 < kerio92> nethack has no balance issues
19:38 -!- kerio92 [n=kerio92@unaffiliated/kerio92] has left ##crawl-dev []
19:39 < Napkin> hihi - sweet :D
19:39 < Timbermaw> lol
19:39 < scarf> sorry, argument in #nethack
19:39 < scarf> that was indirectly my fault, I shouldn't have encouraged him
19:40 < bhaak> but he needs to #enhance his troll skills. they aren't at expert level :)
19:40 <+doy> Napkin: any reason some tiles might be missing from that page?
19:40 < Napkin> which, doy?
19:40 <+Zaba> real trolls never part
19:40 <+doy> Napkin: orb guardians, orb of fire, rakshasa (that i've noticed)
19:40 < scarf> bhaak: with the suggested exp pool changes, all the experience he gains in the near future will go into trolling and being a munchkin, I imagine
19:40 < Napkin> checking
19:41 -!- ortoslon [n=zoob@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:41 < bhaak> scarf: but he won't play crawl, not even a nethack variant, only vanilla
19:41 -!- ortoslon [n=zoob@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has left ##crawl-dev ["Leaving."]
19:42 < scarf> he wouldn't like crawl, there aren't enough exploits
19:42 < scarf> some people are incurable...
19:43 < Napkin> rakshasa is failing, because...
19:43 < Napkin> > grep -i \"rakshasa\" /home/services/crawl/source/crawl-git/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h
19:43 < Napkin>     MONS_RAKSHASA, 'R', YELLOW, "rakshasa",
19:43 < Napkin>     MONS_RAKSHASA_FAKE, 'R', YELLOW, "rakshasa",
19:44 < Napkin> next dc-mon.txt is searched for MONS_RAKSHASA\nMONS_RAKSHASA_FAKE
19:44 < scarf> is god wrath meant to be able to directly one-shot a character, by the way?
19:44 <+doy> scarf: depends on how strong the character is
19:44 < scarf> fair enough
19:45 < scarf> I was wondering if it was like angry Xom, who's supposed to be incapable of killing you directly
19:46 < Twinge_> Bored Xom or Abandoned Xom doesn't have those same qualms
19:46 < scarf> Xom has qualms?
19:46 < scarf> I thought it was just a mechanical problem
19:46 < Napkin> arg.. comments in dc-mon.txt?
19:47 < Napkin> shit... excuse me
19:47 <@dpeg> !seen zelgadis
19:47 < Henzell> Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen zelgadis.
19:47 <@dpeg> !seen matthew_cline
19:47 < Henzell> Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen matthewcline.
19:47 <@dpeg> scarf: in general, no, gods shouldn't kill you directly
19:48 <+by_> re Cheibriados, he works great in conjunction with statue form also
19:48 < scarf> abyssrunning is rather frustrating when Lugonu just arbitrarily kills you
19:48 < scarf> rather than summoning minions
19:48 <+by_> I think if the ponderousification is fixed, che is a fine god
19:48 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-154-86.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:48 <+doy> by_: it's broken?
19:49 <+by_> it only works on body armour contrary to intention, and optimal play dictates wearing it for weak enemies but not when exploring
19:49 <+doy> description for death cob: "A dreadful undead cob of maize. Look, this one was probably a mistake. We're sorry."
19:49 <+doy> hmmm
19:49 <+doy> by_: ah
19:49 <+doy> (:
19:49 <@dpeg> by_: good to know
19:50 <+by_> there was some discussion on this; see wiki; one approach was to give a piety hit for taking off the armour
19:50 <@dpeg> by_: good points
19:50 -!- by_ is now known as by
19:50 <@dpeg> by: they're written down somewhereß
19:50 <@dpeg> ?
19:51 < Napkin> those 3 fixed, doy - let me know, if you find more
19:51 <+by> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:god:cheibriados&s[]=cheibriados
19:51 < Napkin> it's difficlut to match all cases on first try :)
19:51 <+by> dpeg: you wrote most of that page
19:51 <@dpeg> by: good
19:51 <@dpeg> by: erm :)
19:51 <@dpeg> I still think that being full or better should work out for Che
19:52 <+doy> Napkin: death ooze
19:52 <@dpeg> there have been some changes around that, but I didn't follow closely
19:53 < Napkin> guys? could you fix dc-mon.txt please?
19:54 <+doy> Napkin: how is it broken?
19:54 <@dpeg> what is wrong with it?
19:54 < Napkin> "undead/skeletal_dragon MONS_SKELETAL_DRAGON"
19:54 < Napkin> some contain a full path - while all others don't... grrr :-P
19:55 <+greensnark> I think it's just relative to rltiles/dc-mon ?
19:55 < Napkin> fixed, doy
19:56 < Napkin> very difficult to match all cases
19:56 < Napkin> yes, it is, greensnark 
19:56 <+greensnark> Oh, there's a %sdir thing as well
19:56 < Napkin> everything else uses the %sdir - almost
19:56 <+greensnark> Butterfly tile <3
19:57 < Napkin> don't get me wrong, doy - keep them coming :)
19:57 <+greensnark> sixfirhy looks hilrious
19:59 <+doy> zombies don't have tiles, but that might be a separate issue
20:00 <+greensnark> Do zombies use a generic zombie tile or the base monster's tile with a different colour?
20:01 < Napkin> the generic zombie tile
20:01 < Napkin> sadly
20:01 < Napkin> looks kinda weird
20:01 <@dpeg> Napkin: will come over time
20:01 < Napkin> Dragon zombie and rat zombie using the same tile :D
20:01 <@dpeg> there are so many tile artists these days
20:01 < Napkin> of course
20:01 <@dpeg> I wonder we had half as many players write monster descriptions
20:02 <@dpeg> or music or draw vaults
20:02 <@dpeg> *wish
20:02 <+doy> we have a lot of people doing vaults
20:03 <@dpeg> yes, just whining :)
20:05 < Napkin> me too ;)
20:05 <+doy> the non-base slime creatures
20:06 < scarf> "Strange energies run through your body. You feel less energetic!"
20:06 < scarf> there's something wrong with that combination...
20:07 <+greensnark> When the strange energies are done running through you, you obviously feel less energetic
20:07 <+doy> orange crystal statue
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20:09 < Napkin> oh, you are talking to me, doy?
20:09 <+doy> Napkin: yes
20:09 <+doy> (:
20:10 <+doy> draconians
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20:13 <+doy> snapping turtle
20:13 < Napkin> but in dc-mon.txt - it's "snapping_turtle.png" instead of "snapping_turtle"
20:13 < Napkin> *bug in dc-mon.txt - it's "snapping_turtle.png" instead of "snapping_turtle"
20:15 < Napkin> {giant,titanic,etc} slime creatures are not mentioned in mon-data.h
20:15 < Mu_> i'm still generating maps with two disconnected features, despite ending the vault def with   'validate {{ return glyphs_connected('?', '<') }}'   are there any other ways to do it?
20:16 <+greensnark> Mu_: Is this map somewhere we can look at it?
20:17 < Napkin> are you fixing snapping turtle, doy?
20:17 < Mu_> greensnark: http://pastebin.com/d52bc19b
20:18 <+doy> Napkin: nope, i know nothing about how dc-mon.txt works
20:18 < Mu_> yes i had to put each subvault assignment on its own line, it wouldnt work if i had multiple characters on the left :s
20:18 <+doy> i'll let someone else do it
20:18 <+doy> (:
20:18 < Napkin> doh, come one
20:18 < Napkin> please? :)
20:18 < Napkin> *come on
20:18 <+greensnark> Mu_: Scary :)
20:18 < Mu_> i was embarrased to paste it :p
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20:19 <+greensnark> I'm not sure how subvaults interact with the connectivity check
20:19 < Mu_> :(
20:19 <+greensnark> Especially if your subvaults use ? and < themselves
20:19 <+greensnark> Do they?
20:19 < Mu_> nope
20:20 <+greensnark> Oh, is that subvault the only one
20:20 <+greensnark> I could try it
20:20 < Mu_> two
20:20 <+greensnark> Is this file sufficient to try it 
20:20 < Mu_> yep
20:20 < Mu_> it wont always generate disconnected maps
20:21 -!- ortoslon [n=zoob@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:21 < Mu_> it's very basic atm while i just try and get subvaults working
20:21 < Napkin> doy: no MONS_ORANGE_STATUE in dc-mon.txt - seems like their tile is created differently
20:21 < ortoslon> is it okay that AoRage and Trog give me two different berserk abilities?
20:21 <+doy> Napkin: they are MONS_ORANGE_CRYSTAL_STATUE
20:21 < ortoslon> amulet's costs none, trog's costs food
20:22 <+doy> ah, that seems to be another bug in dc-mon
20:22 <+doy> possibly
20:23 <+greensnark> I think all these tiles show up in-game, no?
20:23 <+greensnark> Might be best to let one of the tiles devs make changes to dc-mon.txt :)
20:23 <+doy> yeah, that's why i don't really want to mess with it myself
20:23 <+doy> right
20:23 < Napkin> "orange crystal statue" is MONS_ORANGE_STATUE in mon-data.h, but MONS_ORANGE_CRYSTAL_STATUE in dc-mon.txt
20:24 < Napkin> nothing i can do to relate that
20:24 < Napkin> agreed about orange crystal statue
20:24 < Napkin> but snapping_turtle having .png is just a bug
20:25 < Napkin> >  grep png dc-mon.txt
20:25 < Napkin> snapping_turtle.png MONS_SNAPPING_TURTLE
20:25 < Napkin> ---
20:25 <+doy> Keskitalo: familiar with any of this?
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20:37 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r6518ffd7329a /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon.txt: Fix snapping turtle tile pick (Napkin)
20:38 <+Keskitalo> Err, should check compile first, then push. Hopefully I didn't break it. (I just removed the .png so should be ok.)
20:38 -!- Ero_ [n=ero@149.152.23.34] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:38 < Napkin> perfect, thanks :)
20:39 <+Keskitalo> I'll take a look at the crystal statue too, I think I know where to look.
20:41 <@dpeg> Damn, while holding hand of my daughter (trying to make her sleep) a colossal mistake in my submerger FR occurred to me.
20:41 <+greensnark> So apparently dpeg thinks about submerged sushi far more than his daughter :P
20:41 <@dpeg> :P
20:42 <@dpeg> cannot simply rule that fish won't flee/submerge
20:42 <@dpeg> as that would mean they're cannon fodder for the conjurers
20:42 <+greensnark> They still are, unless we get rid of targeting things under water
20:42 <+greensnark> Which I think is a good idea
20:42 <@dpeg> well, I want a better system
20:43 <+greensnark> Getting rid of the underwater targeting, I mean
20:43 <+Keskitalo> The orange crystal statue thing is a simple naming consistency thing. Should we do ORANGE_STATUE or ORANGE_CRYSTAL_STATUE? :)
20:43 <+doy> dpeg: i think they should still submerge, but only when waiting to attack
20:43 <+doy> Keskitalo: whichever is in mon-data.h, probably
20:43 <+Keskitalo> ORANGE_STATUE it is. Less line changes too. :P
20:43 <+Keskitalo> I'm doing a full compile just in case so I'll push it in 30 mins. :)
20:44 <+doy> dpeg: have submergers tend to stay submerged, unless you're adjacent to them, at which point they unsubmerge and attack
20:44 <+doy> and only resubmerge if you run away
20:45 <@dpeg> doy: submerged attack is in my proposal -- did you read itß
20:45 <@dpeg> This motherbloody right Shift key is not working.
20:45 <+doy> nope!
20:45 <@dpeg> doy: :)
20:45 <+doy> that page got huge really quickly
20:45 <+doy> and so i stopped following it
20:45 <+doy> (:
20:45 <@dpeg> doy: I condensed it!
20:45 <@dpeg> please have a read
20:45 <@dpeg> can comment here
20:45 <+doy> okay
20:47 <@dpeg> I think that melee water creatures should be hidden as soon as their target (you) is too far away (out of reach)
20:47 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: I flipped through it and generally I approve! I think having them not submerge just because they're low on health is good already. Ranged/conjurer problem is true of course. As Darshan points out the targetting needs to be looked at.
20:47 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Yeah, pretty much.
20:48 <+Keskitalo> Actually, the targetting problems should kind of vapourize when the changes go through?
20:48 <+by> Napkin: there have been a couple of bug fixes -- would you mind updating cdo?
20:48 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: But wimpy fish should never actually flee. And you shouldn't be able to target submerged fish I guess.
20:49 < Ashenzari> Demonspawn received different scale mutations (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=513) by fnwc
20:59 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:00 < Ashenzari> Trogg's Burn Spellbooks (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=514) by Cryptic
21:03 <+by> dpeg: ok to make "Make ponderous" apply to any armour slot (except for shields)?
21:08 < CIA-81> greensnark * r47defd3b8f3f /crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: [Mantis 514] Reduce steam cloud generation for flame cloud near water.
21:17 <+doy> dpeg: yes, i think your proposal is good, and i think making fish just be allowed to submerge if they can no longer reach you would be sufficient to fix it
21:19 -!- Jampy [n=Jampy@c-67-168-196-117.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:24 <+Keskitalo> What are "MONS_MONSTER_NAME" variables/enums/??? called? Commit messages are such a pain. :D
21:25 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-154-8.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:25 <+greensnark> enum constants
21:30 < Napkin> reee
21:31 < Napkin> sure thing, by - just waiting for Keskitalo's fix :)
21:31 <+by> I'm planning to implement a che piety cut for taking off ponderous armour; it would seem fair to allow the player to put a different piece of ponderous armour on in exchange without incurring a penalty
21:31 <+by> Napkin: thanks
21:31 <+greensnark> Napkin: Stathol says his game is repeatedly hanging, can you check?
21:31 <+greensnark> On ##crawl
21:32 <+by> any better ideas than starting a delay on taking off the armour and cutting piety after it runs out?
21:32 <+greensnark> Taking off armour has a delay anyway
21:32 <+greensnark> You can do appropriate things when the delay runs out
21:32 <+greensnark> i.e. there's no need for an extra delay, unless I misunderstood the idea
21:33 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-162-172.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:33 <+by> but the player should get a chance to wear something else, so it would appear to require an extra delay that is still active after the undress delay
21:33 <@dpeg> by: yes!
21:34 <+by> at the end of the delay, would compare ponderous level to before taking off the armour
21:34 <@dpeg> by: agree with everything re Che
21:34 <+greensnark> by: Oh, I see
21:34 <+by> dpeg: ok
21:34 <+by> greensnark: but it seems terribly complicated
21:34 <+greensnark> by: Yes, and it wouldn't work for players who are swapping gear in multiple steps
21:34 <@dpeg> damn, I once invented a solution for this
21:35 <+by> greensnark: why not?
21:35 <+greensnark> by: Player drops armouyr, intending to walk across stash and pick up another ponderous armour
21:36 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r334aa95dff11 /crawl-ref/source/ (rltiles/dc-mon.txt tilepick.cc): Consistency for MONS_ORANGE_STATUE enum constants.
21:36 <+by> they'd learn not to do that -- the delay could well last some 20 turns
21:36 <+greensnark> Things like gourmand also have this issue
21:36 <+by> also, Shoal splat
21:37 <+doy> !lg * place=shoal
21:37 <+greensnark> Oh, I thought you meant a delay as in delay.cc, which doesn't allow the player to issue commands while active
21:37 <@dpeg> by: one solution is to use prayer for this
21:37 < Henzell> 76. Cryptic the Severer (L16 DSBe), worshipper of Trog, hit from afar by a merfolk javelineer (javelin of penetration) (led by Ilsuiw) on Shoal:4 on 2010-01-22, with 117268 points after 40411 turns and 3:28:46.
21:37 < Napkin> \o/
21:37 <+doy> !lg * place=shoal -tv
21:37 < Henzell> 76. Cryptic, XL16 DSBe, T:40411 requested for FooTV.
21:37 <+by> greensnark: I may have confused terminology, sorry
21:37 <+by> a "duration" would be right?
21:37 <+greensnark> Crawl confuses a lot of terms :)
21:37 <+greensnark> Yeah, a duration sounds more like it
21:37 <+Keskitalo> That's a project/wiki page right there. =)
21:38 <+by> dpeg: hmm, interesting
21:40 <+by> dpeg: prayer would have to be non-renewable for this to work, however
21:40 <+by> dpeg: or disallow movement during prayer: praying to Chei means meditating (or changing clothes)
21:41 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2608-g334aa95 (16.1)
21:42 < Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/info/?q=snapping%20turtle \o/
21:42 < Napkin> and statue working too - thank you, Keskitalo :)
21:42 <+by> thanks!
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21:43 <+doy> did the statdeath discussion ever make it to a wiki page, by the way?
21:44 <+greensnark> Yes
21:44 <+greensnark> Don't remember where though :P
21:44 <+greensnark> Oh, ok, stats page
21:44 < Napkin> buuuuh @ statdeath!
21:45 <+greensnark> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:stats&s[]=stat&s[]=death
21:45 < syllogism> what's wrong with pan being scummable
21:45 < syllogism> once you can scum pan, you've won the game anyway
21:45 < syllogism> you can make it harder of course
21:46 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: Great! :)
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21:49 < Napkin> and draconians.. they are so different - i would have no idea how to figure out their tiles, doy
21:49 <+doy> Napkin: okay
21:49 < Napkin> thank you for the reports though :)
21:49 < Napkin> i think we fixed most of them?
21:50 <+doy> yeah, i think pretty much everything is fixed now, that i saw anyway
21:50 <+doy> hmmm, other than zombies
21:50 <+greensnark> Maybe we could add a flag to monster to make it spit out the name of the tile to use
21:50 <+greensnark> Assuming there's a single tile
21:50 <+greensnark> Dracs may need colour overlays
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21:53 <+greensnark> Looks like drac tiles use a base drac tile overlaid with a job tile
21:54 <+greensnark> Napkin: Should be easy for your advanced PHP image manip skills :)
21:54 <+greensnark> Or at a pinch just use imagemagick to slam the tiles into a composite :)
21:54 <+greensnark> Or just show them both at the same spot using HTML+CSS
21:54 <+greensnark> HTH :P
21:55 < Napkin> hehehe
21:55 < Ashenzari> Game freezing after killing monster with magic (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=515) by Stathol
21:55 < Napkin> there is no such skill here, greensnark :-P
21:55 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-158-25.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:55 < Napkin> i use shell to find the tile ;)
21:56 <+greensnark> I thought you scaled the image using PHP?:)
21:57 < Napkin> yes, but for that I need to find a tile first :)
21:58 < Napkin> if you have any other idea?
21:58 <@dpeg> okay, submerger wiki is better now
21:59 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Great!
21:59 < Napkin> greensnark: I grep mon-data.h with the name I get ("Sigmund" -> MONS_SIGMUND)
22:00 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: have a look! If it's okay, I'd ask Jude if he wants to have a go.
22:00 < Napkin> greensnark: and then i check dc-mon.txt (MONS_SIGMUND -> sigmund) and add .png
22:00 <@dpeg> syllogism: it is a fundamental question, whether we want any form of scumming. Personally, I think that everything should become harder as time goes on. Now, Pan shouldn't be an epic variant of Zig, but I feel we can keep the concepts distinct. (Also with Abyss ramping up monster generation over time.9
22:00 < Napkin> greensnark: then I search for that file in rltiles
22:01 <+greensnark> Napkin: I was wondering if we can hack monster into giving the tile names as relative paths
22:01 <+greensnark> monster -tile red draconian annihilator for instance
22:01 <+greensnark> Might be tricky to compile the tile pick code without dragging in libpng and SDL though :)
22:01 < Napkin> what would be awesome
22:01 <@dpeg> where is the stat death wiki page?
22:02 < Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:stats
22:02 <@dpeg> syllogism: as far as you are concerned, the only thing on the AC wiki page that needs care is the GDR formula?
22:02 <@dpeg> Napkin: <3
22:02 < Napkin> :)
22:02 < TGW> a player's combined scales level should be capped at 3 (full)
22:02 <@dpeg> TGW: yes
22:02 < TGW> cool
22:04 <@dpeg> oh, the stat death proposal is quite good, I added it to my private 0.7 agenda :)
22:05 < Ashenzari> Robe of Clouds floor tile (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=516) by Porkchop
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22:06 <@dpeg> porkchop and purge are racing for the Most New Tiles title
22:06 < Napkin> hehe
22:07 < Napkin> cdo is racing the quarter million hits a month ;>
22:08 <@dpeg> there should be combined CDO and CAO statistics
22:08 <@dpeg> the CAO numbers are depressing :)
22:08 < Napkin> and CAO has those awesome stats!
22:08 < Napkin> someone should write a post about them :)
22:09 <@dpeg> Napkin: but they're going downhill since quite some time because all the cool kids play on that CDO server
22:09 < Napkin> I meant the 0.5 game stats website
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22:10 <@dpeg> Napkin: I mean the same.
22:10 <+greensnark> CAO could do combined scoring
22:10 < Napkin> CAO includes CDO's stats in that
22:10 <@dpeg> syllogism: still here?
22:10 < Napkin> doesn't it already?
22:10 <+greensnark> CAO includes CDO stats, but only from stable games
22:10 < syllogism> yes
22:10 < Napkin> of course only stable
22:10 <+greensnark> And most players play CDO for the trunk games :)
22:10 <@dpeg> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/per-day.html ???
22:10 < Napkin> well.. you guys should release already :D
22:10 <@dpeg> syllogism: did you read my question above? 
22:10 < syllogism> care as in needs to be looked into?
22:10 <+greensnark> I'm in favour of an Ubuntu-style release model :)
22:11 <@dpeg> syllogism: yes
22:11 <@dpeg> greensnark: how's thatß
22:11 <+greensnark> Set a hard six-month deadline, and feature freeze with whatever's in by that point :)
22:11 <+greensnark> Anything that doesn't make the deadline gets pushed to next release
22:11 < Napkin> hehe - harsh!
22:11 <@dpeg> Napkin: I am trying to push it, trust me. Whenever I send an email on that errant, at first nothing happens, and soon enough someone will make a new portal vault, or a new layout etc.
22:12 <+greensnark> dpeg: The problem is that there are outstanding items for 0.6
22:12 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, that's good, but Crawl is not a project for fixed deadlines.
22:12 <+greensnark> Once AC fix is in, we should branch immediately
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22:12 <@dpeg> greensnark: I know and I have been pushing AC since a looooong time ago.
22:12 < Napkin> what i was about to say - branch :)
22:12 <+greensnark> Once we've branched the release will settle pretty fast
22:12 <+doy> greensnark: it'll still require a good amount of tweaking
22:12 <+greensnark> Yes
22:13 <@dpeg> I told you so often that you can help by playing with syllogism's sheet!
22:13 <+greensnark> But it won't be shaken up by new features
22:13 <+doy> i don't think we'll be able to manage a release before march or april
22:13 < Napkin> but also, i have to admit - a _lot_ of nice stuff has made it into master branch recently!
22:13 <@dpeg> by: still thinking about Che?
22:13 <+doy> even if ac nerf gets in now
22:13 <+by> argh, doing the armour switching is hard to get right
22:13 <+by> dpeg: yes
22:13 <+doy> Napkin: yes!
22:13 < syllogism> high end gdr numbers are fine, but since 10-15% has little to no effect, gdr basically plays no role until the very end
22:13 <@dpeg> by: I once had a solution without praying, I think.
22:13 <+greensnark> Without the AC nerf I think we're just four weeks from a stable build
22:13 <+greensnark> With the Ac nerf, it'll obviously take longer
22:13 <@dpeg> syllogism: enough to tweak the (Armour+13)/17 numbers?
22:14 < syllogism> dpeg: ?
22:14 <@dpeg> syllogism: that's one factor there, isn't it?
22:14 <+by> with a duration, the problem is that allowing a player to requip crystal plate instead of gold dragon armour would also permit a player to take off the gloves, run from a monster, and put them back on
22:14 <+doy> greensnark: maybe a bit generous, but yeah(:
22:14 <@dpeg> by: under prayer, players would be very slow? 
22:14 < syllogism> oh didn't have the formula open
22:14 <+greensnark> I think it's far more important to get the release out than to wait for it to be perfect :)
22:15 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes
22:15 <@dpeg> because the feedback after release helps much more
22:15 <+greensnark> As long as it's not unstable or atrociously out of balance
22:15 < Napkin> i can imagine that stable players in ##crawl get frustrated already
22:15 <@dpeg> why?
22:15 < syllogism> maybe body base ac having a bigger impact would help, but GDR isn't really important
22:15 <+doy> *cough ballistos cough*
22:15 < Napkin> so many "but in trunk it's..."
22:15 <@dpeg> wimps
22:15 <@dpeg> :)
22:15 < syllogism> so it's not a big deal if we don't get it exactly right 
22:15 <@dpeg> Vorfreude!
22:15 < syllogism> at this stage
22:15 < Napkin> hehe
22:15 <+greensnark> doy: Ballistos are mildly annoying, but they're really not the horrors they're made out to be :)
22:16 < syllogism> err armor base ac*
22:16 <@dpeg> greensnark: players are very good at making elephants out of mice
22:16 <+greensnark> I suppose you could get really unlucky with ballistos
22:16 <+by> dpeg: I think I'll just go with cutting piety for disrobing as a start
22:16 <@dpeg> or midgets?
22:16 <@dpeg> by: ok
22:16 <+doy> greensnark: they're okay usually, but they have that frightening potential to turn into uneradicatable death traps
22:16 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-167-58.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:16 <@dpeg> greensnark: there are now two workable ideas to save the ballisto, so I don't worry there
22:16 < purge__> ballistos when they first went in *were* unstoppable many times
22:16 <@dpeg> !seen caotto
22:16 < Henzell> Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen caotto.
22:16 < purge__> but it was corrected pretty fast :p
22:16 <@dpeg> !seen caotto_
22:16 < Henzell> Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen caotto.
22:16 <+by> !seen pointless
22:16 < Henzell> I last saw pointless at Wed Nov 26 04:55:29 2008 UTC (about 1y 8w 2d 16h 21m 29s ago) saying But the user was not online.
22:16 <+greensnark> Wandering spores could do with less ballisto generation, I guess
22:17 <+Keskitalo> March or April sounds really good, honestly. :)
22:17 <+doy> yeah, i think the proposals we have now for ballistos should make them fine
22:17 <+doy> greensnark: yes, that's the main issue
22:17 <@dpeg> greensnark: exactly
22:17 <+by> !seen pointless_
22:17 < Henzell> I last saw pointless at Wed Nov 26 04:55:29 2008 UTC (about 1y 8w 2d 16h 21m 51s ago) saying But the user was not online.
22:17 < Napkin> heh - my dad cursed nicely about the ballisto :D
22:17 < syllogism> 0.6 seems like the biggest release yet in terms of new features
22:17 <@dpeg> I am not sure about the status of the noise project.
22:17 <+greensnark> dpeg: I'd suggest leaving it in whatever state it is for 0.6 :P
22:17 <+doy> noise could really get postponed
22:17 <@dpeg> syllogism: and every time we promise ourselves to "make it really small, this time"
22:18 <+doy> we didn't add anything that depends critically on it
22:18 <+by> dpeg: you can leave noise as is -- the stealth game isn't broken
22:18 <@dpeg> greensnark: sure. Matthew operates on a rather erratic basis.
22:18 <@dpeg> by: yes, I played a bit to note that
22:18 <+doy> and really, div stuff would be fine the way it is now too
22:18 <+greensnark> Yes
22:19 <+by> one thing that might be worth doing is to make controlled blink silent -- currently you'll wake everything except those on the edge of LOS I believe
22:19 <@dpeg> But does anyone if these are true now: (a) Monsters fighting monsters makes noise (important for allies/summons). (b) spellcasting noise is different?
22:19 <+greensnark> If I have time this weekend I shall examine the AC math
22:19 <+by> (b) certainly
22:19 <+greensnark> But I'm really quite unfamiliar with things like GDR and spellcasting penalties :P
22:19 <@dpeg> greensnark: <3
22:19 <+by> casting spells in general causes you to wake everything within radius of spell level
22:19 <@dpeg> greensnark: this holds for everybody, except perhaps sorear, syllogism, dis_astranagant, Brent
22:20 <+by> and I think beams make noise on impact
22:20 <@dpeg> by: right, I remember that one
22:20 <+by> dpeg: also monsters fight outside player LOS much better nowadays, which helps also against player summons
22:21 <@dpeg> cool
22:21 <+doy> the only things that are absolutely critical for the release are the ac nerf, finishing the message window rewrite, and getting the rest of the new tiles drawn
22:21 <+by> you'll often see missiles flying at your summons from outside LOS
22:21 <+greensnark> doy: Yes
22:21 < Napkin> <3 stone soup!
22:21 <+doy> there are a bunch of other tweaks that would be really nice, but nothing else should really be a release blocker, i think
22:21 <+greensnark> And release stability
22:21 <@dpeg> doy: we collected a list of outstanding items today, do you still have it?
22:21 <+doy> dpeg: on irc? yeah
22:21 <@dpeg> by: another bit about Che. My original idea was that ponderousifying should also improve the armour... in the end, it could lead to randarts. Should I/we flesh out a model?
22:21 <+greensnark> But a couple of weeks on cdo without major new features going in should fix stability bugs
22:22 <@dpeg> okay, let's target the AC change for next week
22:22 <@dpeg> so that people can look into it this weekend :)
22:22 <@dpeg> and once the AC is in, feature freeze
22:22 < Napkin> btw.. i might have to take CDO down one day or another - need to repartition :D
22:22 < syllogism> that sheet doesn't take into account gdr can't be higher than your total ac. Doesn't really affect the new formulas but it does inflate GDR old figures
22:23 < syllogism> but aren't really important
22:23 <@dpeg> ah
22:23 < Napkin> it's kinda like... 150 additional mb used per day
22:23 <@dpeg> GDR is a very weird beast
22:23 < syllogism> it's pretty unnecessary in my opinion
22:23 < syllogism> it doesn't do much and it's complicated
22:24 <@dpeg> I think it is okay with the other changes
22:24 <@dpeg> I could make CPM interesting
22:24 <@dpeg> syllogism: I guess a good design would be obtained by answering the following questions: what GDR should plate mail at 0 skill give? And which at skill 27ß
22:25 < syllogism> yes but it's also important to look at what the actual effect of having 20% gdr is
22:25 < syllogism> @?? stone giant
22:25 < Gretell> stone giant (C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 48-128 | AC/EV: 12/2 | Damage: 45 | Res: magic(85) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2033.
22:26 < syllogism> because obviously 20% gdr doesn't mean you take 20% less damage on average
22:27 < syllogism> given same ac and 0 vs 20% gdr
22:27 < syllogism> and it only applies in melee
22:27 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: I like the water proposal. The proposed alligators might get very interesting, as you can't be sure if the turbulence will follow you on-land.
22:28 <+Keskitalo> Dropping targetting on water creatures -> <3
22:29 < CIA-81> by * r9c721b900ca5 /crawl-ref/source/ (godabil.cc godabil.h invent.cc): Allow Cheibriados worshippers to ponderousify any armour slot.
22:29 < CIA-81> by * re31a025185bd /crawl-ref/source/religion.h: Bring did_god_conduct header parameter naming in line with implementation.
22:29 < CIA-81> by * r44ecb0af9a9b /crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h it_use2.cc religion.cc): Cheibriados piety loss for unequipping ponderous armour.
22:31 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Dropping even polearms from the picture might be beneficial; polearm of reaching -> free fish sticks.
22:32 <+Keskitalo> -> everyone lugs one around
22:32 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-158-25.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [No route to host]
22:32 <+greensnark> I agree on disabling all attacks on submerged creatures
22:34 < scarf> it's rather counterintuitive for you to be able to walk onto the same square as a submerged monster, by the way
22:35 <+Keskitalo> That's going.
22:35 <+Keskitalo> Happily! :)
22:35 <+greensnark> Yeah, that's been nothing but a source of bugs :P
22:36 < scarf> why was it even possible in the first place?
22:36 <+greensnark> Probably because the player and monsters are handled entirely different and someone thought it would be cool to use that for submerging
22:37 <+greensnark> There have been numerous bugs where a monster that can't submerge winds up on the player's position
22:37 <+greensnark> The classic is that 0.1 death where an electric golem blinked onto the player's position
22:37 <+greensnark> ANd beat the player to death before they could work out where it was
22:37 < syllogism> I suppose gdr has a more noticeable effect if your ac is closer to the gdr% and the enemy hits hard
22:37 < syllogism> but that rarely happens
22:37 < scarf> couldn't the player run?
22:38 < scarf> actually, that reminds me rather of engulfing in NetHack, where the player ends up /inside/ the monster
22:38 < scarf> and has to 1v1 it from the inside
22:39 <+doy> there's still the issue of air elementals
22:39 <+doy> what about them?
22:40 <+by> ok to just make submerged monsters immune to beams?
22:41 <+by> branch?
22:42 <+greensnark> by: master :P
22:44 -!- hashc [n=hash@adsl-68-76-123-64.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:48 <+Keskitalo> "I only survived thanks to a scroll of fog" on Zot:5 <3
22:49 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: hm, the polearms bit was an attempt to keep the mental image of the fishpole (cool!) with another perk for the polearms skill
22:50 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Yes, but I think it's unfortunately to overall detriment
22:50 <+greensnark> dpeg: I liked the idea at the time, but a) it's a spoiler b) it produces incredibly grindy play
22:50 -!- SiberSchool [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:51 <@dpeg> greensnark: would be much less grindy with my proposal, it's pretty radical
22:51 <+Keskitalo> Plus it's not a Polearms perk if everyone would carry one around to bore themselves with :]
22:51 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: okay, I agree that reaching for distance 2 is not good
22:51 <+greensnark> Yeah, way too many players carrying around a spear just to kiill fish
22:51 <@dpeg> but getting one attack on the hidden monster next to you is probably okay
22:51 <@dpeg> it will surface in the next turn anyway
22:52 <+greensnark> If we fix the various submerging-monster AI idiocies, it'll be fine
22:52 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Yeah, that does sound good.
22:52 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, that's all in
22:52 <@dpeg> Ok, will redo the thing again :)
22:52 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: And a decent perk; could be very good for Swamp/Shoals!
22:53 <+Keskitalo> To get the first hit. (Assuming fishes, at least some, take one turn to appear?)
22:53 <+Keskitalo> Like @.~ --> .@~ --> .@;
22:53 <+greensnark> When you say "good for SHoals" you mean "produce more splats in Shoals", I hope :)
22:54 <@dpeg> greensnark: :)
22:54 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Hey, there's some Shoals comments in the SA thread.
22:54 <+greensnark> I follow the SA thread :)
22:54 <+greensnark> Someone called the Shoals incredibly treacherous <3
22:54 <+greensnark> Of course, he was playig a tiles version that showed boss merfolk using the same tiles, so!
22:55 <+Keskitalo> The one that begins "Whoa, Shoals is a bloody deathtrap" has a nice story about dying there with a buff char.
22:55 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@169.236.122.209] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:55 <+greensnark> Sounds excellent <3
22:55 <+Keskitalo> http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=126#post371187195
22:55 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: done
22:55 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Great!
22:56 <@dpeg> !seen due
22:56 < Henzell> I last saw due at Fri Jan 22 13:22:06 2010 UTC (8h 34m 9s ago) saying Goodnight, folk! on ##crawl-dev.
22:56 <@dpeg> Sleep's over!
22:56 <+Keskitalo> Yes, 8 hours already!
22:56 <+by> you should call him
22:56 <@dpeg> by: :)
22:56 <+greensnark> Definitely call him
22:57 <@dpeg> He does not live alone, I think.
22:57 <+greensnark> Where does he get off sleeping so long :P
22:57 <+greensnark> dpeg: That's fine!
22:57 < Cryp71c> dpeg, closable: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=514
22:58 <@dpeg> players are not only wimps but also cowards :) (re SA thread)
22:58 < Jampy> i think the new shoals is much more challenging (i think ive lost 2 out of 3 guys that have gotten there), but its a lot more interesting and fun
22:58 <+greensnark> The early iterations of the new Shoals monsters were quite brutal
22:58 <+greensnark> But I think they're pretty reasonable now
22:58 < Jampy> oh is it possible that the shoals rune was burried in deep water for ever
22:59 < Jampy> i had a game where that appeared to be the case
22:59 <+greensnark> Shoals was always balanced with ref to Snake, not Swamp :)
22:59 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: thanks!
22:59 <+greensnark> Jampy: It's possible for the tide to wash into huts, but it'll go out again eventually
22:59 <+greensnark> Possibly you just missed a hut?
23:00 < Jampy> i could have missed a hut
23:00 < Jampy> but there was a hut with 2 tiles of deep water
23:00 <@dpeg> There are voices of sanity in SA. Bug!
23:00 < scarf> greensnark: is Swamp going to be balanced with reference to Shoals, some time?
23:00 < Jampy> in the middle of the hut
23:01 < Cryp71c> I also wanted to get your guys' opinion on this: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=460
23:01 <+doy> scarf: no
23:01 <+doy> well
23:01 <+doy> swamp will be changed
23:01 <+greensnark> Ilsuiw's hut has gappy diagonal walls and is filled with water, is that the one?
23:01 <+doy> but it really doesn't need to be balanced with respect to anything else
23:01 < scarf> agreed, at the moment it just feels rather like a rather arbitrary branch
23:01 < Cryp71c> I submitted a fix, but never really cleared it with anyone..and thus wanted to see if anyone had a better solution than simply changing the distance to 20 units.
23:01 <+greensnark> The tide isn't entirely deterministic, so it could leave water pockets behind as it recedes out of a hut
23:01 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: thanks, I replied.
23:01 <+by> what's the XP ration of shoals to swamp?
23:02 <+greensnark> Best fix is to just make it wash items out again
23:02 <+by> s/ration/ratio/
23:02 < Jampy> i should have taken a screenshot or saved the game green.  im not totally sure about the layout =(
23:02 <+greensnark> by: Shoals is close to 1.8x Swamp xp
23:02 <+by> ??swamp
23:02 < Henzell> swamp[1/2]: Accessed from the Lair somewhere between levels 2 and 7. Five levels deep. Expect watery terrain and hydras throughout. A decaying rune lies at the bottom, guarded by swamp dragons and hydras. As swamp drakes emit mephitic clouds, enter not without poison resistance or enhanced mental clarity, unless you like embarassing drowning deaths.
23:02 <+doy> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/SeraphRoy/BucklerofWin.png haha what
23:02 <+greensnark> Varies quite a bit both ways
23:02 <@dpeg> greensnark: which is not the intention :)
23:02 <+by> should just make swamp 9 levels deep :)
23:02 <@dpeg> by: pfff :)
23:02 <+Keskitalo> by: <3!!!
23:03 <+greensnark> dpeg: My hands are tied, can't make an interesting branch without that much xp :P
23:03 <+greensnark> Shoals and SNake are very close in xp
23:03 <+greensnark> Swamp has nothing but a few hydras all the way down to Swamp:5 :P
23:03 <+greensnark> And there it has a few more hydras and swamp dragons :P
23:04 <+doy> swamp needs a better monster set
23:04 <+Keskitalo> This was nice to read: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=127#post371286612
23:04 <+by> sleep now
23:05 -!- by [n=rob@g225111091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["night"]
23:05 <+Keskitalo> by: Cheers!
23:05 <+Keskitalo> <-- slow
23:05 < Cryp71c> lol "The orc corpse of Blork the orc "
23:05 < purge__> someone is using purge :/ i don't think i am the owner of the nick though
23:05 < Ashenzari> The orc corpse of Blork the orc (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=517) by Stathol
23:05 -!- purge__ is now known as purge_
23:08 < scarf> purge_: "purge" is registered, but hsan't been used since Aug 13
23:08 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-163-108.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
23:08 < scarf> well, if it has they haven't logged in
23:09 < purge_> yeah i know i am asking in #freenode if i can get it
23:10 < purge_> ogaz interested? :P lol
23:10 <+Keskitalo> New rods might be a bit much: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=128#post371368099
23:10 < Cryp71c> purge_, probably not. They've been registered for 3 years, typically the 'reclaim' date (the date that an account can be unregistered and thus made available for registration again) is 8 weeks + a week for every week of registered time.
23:10 < Cryp71c> Although I'm sure they'd say if he hadn't been on in 6-8 months, that its available
23:11 < purge_> yeah its only been a little over 3 months it seems
23:11 < ogaz> purge_: I like clicking on links(if I recognize where they come from)
23:11 < purge_> ocd? :)
23:11 <+doy> Keskitalo: yes, i've been kinda concerned about them
23:11 <+doy> they went in without much discussion, and i haven't heard much feedback in general
23:11 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: if you spot good content in SA, make sure to at least link it from a Mantis item.
23:12 <@dpeg> Cannot rely on SAers to file.
23:12 <+doy> so it's hard to say how well balanced the new stuff actually is
23:12 <@dpeg> doy: would you add a note on rods to the "test for 0.6" wiki?
23:12 <+doy> that sounds like it's more of an issue with summoning in general than with rods, but until we fix summoning, it might be better to not hand out quite so many cheap sources of it
23:13 < Twinge_> Cryptic: Every year of registered time, not every week, is what I remember being told
23:13 < Cryp71c> purge_, on a related note, I'm waiting to get Cryptic
23:13 < Cryp71c> Twinge, ah, I spoke with someone a week or so ago, but he may have misinformed me.
23:13 < Twinge_> week = week seems insane, though year = week seems kind of weird too to be honest ;)
23:14 < Cryp71c> yeah I know
23:14 < Cryp71c> I thought it strange
23:14 < Cryp71c> I'm waiting until mid-feb or march and gonna try and take Cryptic
23:14 < Cryp71c> its been 7 weeks as of now, and only registered for 24
23:14 <+doy> ##crawl-sa is ---> that way
23:14 < Cryp71c> doy, our bad
23:14 < Cryp71c> dpeg, IDK why I'm commenting on the thread..I guess for posterity, you think the listen distance would better be LOS?
23:15 <+Keskitalo> There's ##crawl-sa? Cool.
23:15 <+doy> Keskitalo: shrug
23:15 <+doy> there could be if you join it
23:15 <+doy> (:
23:15 <@rax> Is there really ##crawl-sa?
23:15 <+doy> i'm just making stuff up
23:15 <@rax> "I thought that was just ##crawl"
23:15 <+Keskitalo> :)
23:16 <+Keskitalo> I'll add the rod bit to 0.6 page.
23:16 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: we are talking about noises from someone floundering in shallow water?
23:16 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: thank you
23:16 < Cryp71c> dpeg, creatures floundering, yeah.
23:16 < Cryp71c> (confused, whatever)
23:17 < Cryp71c> In my patch, if you can see them it says the monster name + " splashes around" or something like that...if its within 20 cells, it says "Something splashes around"
23:19 < purge_> should shields(besides bucklers) affect casting more? according to the SA forum its rare to see a caster ascending without a shield?
23:20 <+doy> purge_: pretty sure non-buckler shields do affect casting quite a bit
23:21 < Cryp71c> yep, anything non-buckler affects your EV, and thus your casting by quite a bit.
23:22 < ogaz> using a shield is the equivalent of losing something like 7-8 points of int for success rates, and a large shield is like 15
23:22 <+greensnark> dpeg: Check out Adeon's Shoal rune grab :P
23:22 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: let's wait with it, for floundering may be gone Real Soon.
23:22 <@dpeg> greensnark: where?
23:22 <+greensnark> dpeg: floundering's already gone
23:22 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: ^
23:22 <+greensnark> due made the amphib changes
23:22 < Cryp71c> dpeg, close that request then for me? 
23:22 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: yes, will do
23:22 < Cryp71c> thanks
23:22 <+greensnark> !lm Adeon rune=barnacled -tv:>2
23:22 < Adeon> I thought I was dead! it was the first time I've been to shoals
23:22 < Henzell> 1. AdeonTwo, XL24 OgSt, T:99051 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
23:23 <@dpeg> thanks for bringing it up, I hope you didn't have too much trouble with the patch
23:23 <@dpeg> XL 24 :)
23:23 < ogaz> BTW, I was thinking maybe shields should affect spell success rates of large races the way that bucklers do for normal-sized races
23:23 <+greensnark> dpeg: Og, so effectively XL 16 in power :)
23:23 <@dpeg> greensnark: not true!!! Og = powerhouse
23:24 <+greensnark> Just kidding :)
23:24 <@dpeg> also, they level so fast
23:24 <@dpeg> ogaz: I think size matters already?
23:25 <+Keskitalo> I'm off to sleep. Cheers!
23:25 <+greensnark> Wow, that ttyrec is messing with FooTV
23:25 <+doy> what's it doing?
23:25 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes :/
23:25 < Timbermaw> yes i've eaten half my popcorn bowl waiting for it to lead
23:25 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-167-58.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:25 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: bye!
23:25 < Timbermaw> load*
23:25 <+greensnark> It seems to be pegging CPU for some reason
23:26 < ogaz> dpeg: I don't actually know
23:26 <+greensnark> Ok, there we go
23:26 <@dpeg> AC 7, EV 10 <3
23:26 < Timbermaw> greensnark: you manage termcast? CDO?
23:27 <+greensnark> No, I host FooTV
23:27 <+greensnark> FooTV is just one of the termcast channels
23:27 <+greensnark> And Napkin runs CDO
23:27 < Timbermaw> ah okay
23:28 <@dpeg> awesome
23:29 <+greensnark> It'd been even better if he'd fought the kraken :)
23:29 <@dpeg> is there any reason why "sea snake" isn't "serpent"?
23:30 <+greensnark> No pressing reason, no :)
23:30 < Twinge_> sea serpent implies something much larger, more threatening, and less poisonous than a snake
23:31 <+greensnark> I can do the more threatening bit any day :P
23:31 < Timbermaw> crawl is being spammed by the java virus
23:31 < Timbermaw> #crawl i mean
23:31 < Twinge_> Anyone on Op on ##crawl?
23:31 <+greensnark> Sea snakes are more modeled after the real beast than the mythical beastie
23:32 <+greensnark> But the mythical thing could be used instead
23:32 <+greensnark> Napkin and Elly have ops on ##crawl
23:32 <+greensnark> So does rax
23:34 <@elly> I do not have 'real ops'
23:34 <@elly> but what's up?
23:34 < scarf> Timbermaw: they were attacking #nethack earlier
23:34 < scarf> elly: spambot attack
23:34 <@elly> oh, sorry
23:42 <@dpeg> ##crawlers attacked #nethack ?!
23:43 <@dpeg> playing to many Trogites or what?
23:44 < scarf> dpeg: no, the spambots did
23:45 < hashc> no one has berserkitis dont worry
23:47 <@dpeg> okay, was a bit worried
23:47 <@dpeg> still wonder that SA is so tame
23:48 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r6033313e12eb /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (dc-item.txt item/weapon/holy_scourge.png): Replace holy scourge tile with a more glowy version, also by Porkchop.
23:51 -!- Ero_ [n=ero@149.152.23.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:55 <@dpeg> !tell due Are the splashing noise messages gone along with the floundering?
23:55 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let due know.
23:56 -!- scarf [n=scarf@unaffiliated/ais523] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
23:57 <+greensnark> Actually, I'm not sure if floundering went or just water attacks
23:57 <+greensnark> Floundering doesn't sound like a bad thing in itself
23:58 <@dpeg> yes
23:58 <@dpeg> one of the ideas for big species was to make them immune to floundering
23:59 < Eronarn> a dex component to floundering would be nice