00:03 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rd7d031de1fb9 /crawl-ref/source/ (14 files in 6 dirs): Add purge's tile for the orb of destruction and its magic trail.
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00:18 <+due> TGWi: It partially works and it will get repaired.
00:18 < Henzell> due: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
00:18 <+due> !messages
00:18 < Henzell> (1/3) greensnark said (8h 14m 4s ago): shoals_atoll tide machinery is in place, take a look and see if that's what you wanted.
00:18 <+due> !messages
00:18 < Henzell> (1/2) dpeg said (7h 59m 16s ago): Using the now flexible tides for volcanoes looks like an irresistible idea. Also fits with players sometimes complaining about "not enough action in volcanoes". But: after Trove :)
00:18 <+due> !messages
00:18 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (3h 24m 54s ago): Could we get unique clusters because of players choosing branches in a particular way? So I wait with Snake for some time, then it is generated rather late (for its depth) and gets all the uniques? In other words, would assigning uniques before dungeon generation yield something different?
00:18 <+due> Hm.
00:18 <+due> To be honest, I actually had debated something like that--pre-determined uniques.
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00:21 <+due> Like I said on the slime creatures post, I think we need to reinvestigate how swimming monsters work, and define them in three ways: floats (swims with difficulty, but does not drown); swims (does not get a speed bonus, but no speed penalty); native (may submerge, gets a speed bonus).
00:22 <+due> HT_AMPHIBIOUS_LAND should be swimming, HT_AMPHIBIOUS_WATER would be native, and swimming could be a M_CAN_SWIM class flag.
00:22 <+sorear> predermining features of the entire dungeon could work pretty well
00:26 <+due> sorear: Well, rolling them at the start of the game instead of when each level is generated.
00:27 <+due> sorear: Much like the temple and demonspawn mutations.
00:27 <+doy> did anyone ever run any unique generation stats?
00:27 <+due> No, I keep meaning to
00:27 <+due> I haven't had time. I was going to use Darshan's script though
00:29 <+due> I think dpeg's right in that, if you visit a level late in the game, after having generated all the other uniques, and there are a lot of uniques still available for that depth but unplaced, you have a lower chance of initial failure of placement to do anything.
00:29 <+doy> did this not used to be the case?
00:30 <+due> I think it did
00:30 <+due> But not exactly like this
00:31 <+due> The random unique picker still had a chance of picking one that was already placed; in that case, it would just automatically fail.
00:31 <+doy> ah
00:31 <+due> Whereas now it fails if it gets the dummy
00:31 <+due> Or on a random chance
00:34  * due heads off.
00:38 < Ashenzari> Holy Scourge tiles, floor and doll (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=488) by Porkchop
01:06 < purge> oooo porkshop is good at tiles
01:06 < purge> porkchop*
01:08 < purge> woot jpeg added my iood tiles! :D
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02:10 < purge> Anyone here any have opinions on XNA?
02:10 < purge> if you've tried it :P
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02:35 -!- Netsplit calvino.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Gretell, Spads, Henzell, Napkin, hashc, Ashenzari, MarvinPA
02:37 -!- Netsplit over, joins: hashc, Henzell, Spads, MarvinPA, Gretell, Napkin, Ashenzari
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03:24 < Ashenzari> Jiyva should not put players at risk of stat death (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=489) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
03:44 <+sorear> what if Gretell reported trunk games here?
03:44 <+sorear> highish level ones
03:47 <+due> Or Shoals/unique splats.
03:48 <+due> Porkchop = PigVomit, right?
03:49 < Eronarn> y
03:49 <+due> !tell PigVomit I really like your tiles!
03:49 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let PigVomit know.
03:56 <+due> greensnark: Awesome, thank you so much.
04:00 <+due> !tell dpeg http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:water_creatures_overhaul Fully outlined my amphibiousness proposal at the end of that post.
04:00 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
04:22 <+due> !!
04:22 <+due> Save chooser works, hooray!
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04:24 < CIA-81> due * r43d4ad118999 /crawl-ref/source/dat/levdes.vim: Add FHEIGHT to levdes.vim.
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05:33 < CIA-81> due * r1ea47049cb1b /crawl-ref/source/dat/shoals.des: Tweak wording on Shoals atoll map.
05:33 < CIA-81> due * r8724391af9a1 /crawl-ref/source/dat/ (crypt.des tomb.des): Move Tomb maps into their own files.
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05:46 < CIA-81> due * r5afbacd64d7d /crawl-ref/source/dat/crypt.des: Fix david_glass_crypt.
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07:20 <+due> Mu_, someone elese got Doroklohe!
07:21 < Mu_> i think i saw
07:21 < Mu_> they got scared off?
07:22 <+doy> !lm * type=br.enter place=wizlab
07:22 < Henzell> 16. [2010-01-21] clouded the Farming Destroyer (L23 MuWz) entered Doroklohe's Tomb on turn 235071. (WizLab)
07:22 <+doy> !lm * type=br.enter place=wizlab -tv
07:22 < Henzell> 16. clouded, XL23 MuWz, T:235071 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
07:22 <+due> No, finished it :D
07:24 < Mu_> oh cool
07:31 <+due> !lg Cryptic
07:31 < Henzell> 676. Cryptic the Executioner (L20 DSBe), worshipper of Trog, blasted by an illusion of Mara (bolt of lightning) (woven by Mara) on D:24 on 2010-01-21, with 269725 points after 73825 turns and 6:03:59.
07:32 <+due> !killsby -i Mara
07:32 < Henzell> 3 games for * (ikiller=Mara): 1x N78291, 1x MUMMY, 1x Cryptic
07:32 <+due> Oooh
07:32 <+due> !lg * ikiller=Mara s=killer
07:32 < Henzell> 3 games for * (ikiller=Mara): 1x an illusion of Mara, 1x N78291's illusion, 1x MUMMY's illusion
07:32 <+doy> !lm * type=br.exit place=wizlab -tv
07:32 < Henzell> No milestones for * (type=br.exit place=wizlab).
07:32 <+doy> !lm * type=br.leave place=wizlab -tv
07:32 < Henzell> No milestones for * (type=br.leave place=wizlab).
07:33 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
07:33 <+due> It doesn't give a milestone for leaving, I think?
07:34 < ogaz> I don't believe so
07:35 <+doy> oh right, there's only br.end
07:35 <+doy> !lm * type=br.end place=wizlab
07:35 < Henzell> No milestones for * (type=br.end place=wizlab).
07:36 <+doy> portal vaults should use that for exits
07:36 <+doy> or just have a separate exit field
07:36 <+due> It's possible
07:37 < ogaz> There's usually nothing interesting about leaving a portal vault, though
07:37 <+due> True.
07:38 <+due> Argh
07:39 <+due> l_ditems.cc:39: error: cannot convert ‘item_def’ to ‘item_def*’ for argument ‘2’ to ‘void push_ditem(lua_State*, item_def*)’
07:39  * due sucks at the C++.
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07:54 <+due> @whereis Alweth
07:54 < Gretell> Alweth the Covered (L4 MDFi) saved on D:3 on 2009-11-14 after 1298 turns.
07:54 <+due> @whereis dpeque
07:54 < Gretell> dpeque the Nimble (L10 SpHu) saved on D:10 on 2009-11-15 after 18901 turns.
07:54 <+due> @whereis Brain
07:54 < Gretell> Brain the Conjurer (L9 DSWz), a worshipper of Sif Muna, saved on D:10 on 2009-11-28 after 11699 turns.
07:54 <+due> @whereis Arturs
07:54 < Gretell> Arturs the Ruinous (L3 DECj) saved on D:3 on 2009-11-11 after 2098 turns.
08:00 <+due> @whereis poop
08:00 < Gretell> poop the Fencer (L16 HEPa), a worshipper of Okawaru, saved on Vault:2 on 2009-12-18 after 43064 turns.
08:00 <+due> Oh, nice.
08:00 < mr0t> @whereis da_monkey
08:00 < Gretell> No where information for da_monkey ().
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08:33 < Napkin> What does +9 on my rod of smiting mean?
08:34 <+due> Napkin: ... Good.
08:34 < Napkin> = +9,+9 ?
08:34 <+due> Yes.
08:34 < Napkin> ah
08:34 < Napkin> ok - isn't it weird to have those in a single number for rods?
08:35 < Napkin> that also means.. when I read the recharge on the previous rod - and it turned from 0 to +2
08:35 < Napkin> I enchanted it by +2,+2 with a single scroll of recharging?
08:35 <+due> Yup
08:36 < Napkin> wow
08:36 < Napkin> does the scroll of recharge do the same amount of change to an electrocution weapon then?
08:36 <+due> Not sure, sorry.
08:37 < Napkin> it doesn't
08:37 < Napkin> on an electrocution weapon it only does +1,+0 or +0,+1
08:37 < Napkin> *it didn't in the past
08:37 < Napkin> should be equalized, i think
08:39 < Jampy> hey does anyone know if something similar to the proposal about demigods on the brainstorm page has a chance of making it into trunk in the forseeable future?
08:39 <+due> Jampy: Define forseeable.
08:39 < Jampy> because it sounds incredibly awesome
08:39 <+due> By 0.6 = definitely not.
08:39 <+due> By 0.7 = possibly.
08:40 <+due> 0.7 or later is the likeliest bet.
08:40 < Jampy> yeah i figured it was too big to get in by .6
08:40 <+due> We're already overhauling demonspawn for 0.6 (currently unfinished).
08:40 < Jampy> one other question: i had a dungeon today with both shoals and swamp with no snake.
08:40 <+due> Yup.
08:40 <+due> You get 2 of Shoals, Swamp, Snake.
08:40 < Jampy> ok cool
08:41 <+due> Did you get the one with the Lernaean hydra?
08:41 <+due> !lm * uniq=~lern
08:41 <+due> !lg * killer=~lern
08:41 < Jampy> no thank goodness
08:41 < Jampy> normal hydras were hard enough
08:41 < Henzell> No milestones for * (uniq=~lern).
08:41 < Henzell> No games for * (killer=~lern).
08:41 < Jampy> but the mermaid named is a fun challenge
08:41 <+due> :(
08:41 <+due> Ilsuiw?
08:41 < Jampy> yeah
08:41 < Jampy> he almost killed me a few times before i could get him out of the water
08:42 <+due> She is pretty nasty, yeah.
08:42 <+due> !lm * uniq=Mara
08:42 < Henzell> 56. [2010-01-21] hyperbolic the Bewitcher (L19 DSAM) killed Mara on turn 50627. (Vault:5)
08:42 < Jampy> due is there somewhere you could point me that would start me towards creating a roguelike in c++?
08:43 < Jampy> im extremely new to c++ but i seem to only be able to find info on really complex algorithms or extremely simple tutorials on language basics
08:44 < Jampy> if no, no worries =p
08:47 <+due> Sorry, was getting food
08:47 <+due> I've honestly no idea, sorry.
08:47 <+due> I don't even know C++ :)
08:48  * due just pretends.
08:53 < CIA-81> due vaults * r888f0973b30c /crawl-ref/ (186 files in 20 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into vaults
09:00 < CIA-81> due vaults * r55dc29b2e2c3 /crawl-ref/source/dat/vault_gen.des: Tag the external floors as no_monster_gen.
09:28 <+due> I see no reason why draconian breath is dealt with as non-spell.
09:29 <+due> Oh.
09:29 <+due> NEver mind.
09:30 < Ashenzari> Torment scrolls are still "restricted" for undead (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=490) by OG17
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09:48 < mr0t> Sorry for the bother, but I figure of all the channels I hang out in, this is the best place to ask -- 
09:50 < mr0t> does anyone know of a free, or even just trialware, CD drive emulating program, like Alcohol 120%, which for some reason all of a sudden (without me updating it, oddly) requires me to register, and even a legitimate crack program (i.e. it did generate a legit code, and it *didnt* start any other processes when I ran it, nor did any new files turn up
09:50 < mr0t> always nice to download a program that isn't hidden malware!
09:51 <+due> Hm
09:51 <+due> ISO Buster? Somtehing like that.
09:51 < mr0t> anyway, I've always been suspicious of alcohol 120% because *it* starts a bunch of processes, granted, it makes sense, but some of them can be shut down without affecting anything noticeably, so they *must* be data miners or something
09:51 < mr0t> ISO buster. thanks due~!
09:51 <+doy> mr0t: i always used daemontools
09:51 <+doy> but that was like 6 years ago
09:51 < mr0t> wait, before I go and dl, I should have mentioned I am using windows 2000
09:51 <+due> Ah, ISO buster isn't free.
09:51 <+doy> i was using win2k at the time
09:51  * mr0t slaps himself with a wet trout for it
09:52 < mr0t> does it have a free trial period?
09:52 <+doy> it's free in general
09:52 < mr0t> but not free in the specific way that you have to pay for it to use it? :)
09:52 < mr0t> nah, I think I see what you're saying
09:52 <+doy> hmmm, or was, anyway
09:52 <+due> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_image_software
09:52 < mr0t> free programs seem to be rarer and rarer these days
09:52 <+due> They'r enot, you just have to look.
09:53 <+doy> http://www.daemon-tools.cc/eng/products/dtLite
09:53 <+doy> they still seem to have a free version
09:53 <+due> DaemonTools Lite is freeware, according to Wikipedia
09:53 < mr0t> like um. xchat for instance, used to be free, or at most, you had to sit through a 5 second window encouraging donation or buying the program which would give you advanced options or something like that.. like mIRC 
09:53 <+due> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_CD-ROM_Control_Panel
09:53 < mr0t> sweet!! thanks man
09:53 <+due> XChat *is* free
09:53 < mr0t> this is a big help
09:54 <+due> They just charge for the Windows build.
09:54 < mr0t> heh
09:54 < mr0t> ok, fair enough
09:54 <+doy> which is free anyway
09:54 <+doy> you just have to compile it
09:54 <+due> I wouldn't use it anyway
09:54 <+doy> which other people have
09:54 < mr0t> but for us tards who can't compile.. 
09:54 <+due> I think it's  reprehensible
09:54 < mr0t> that they charge for the win build?
09:54 <+due> Yes.
09:54 <+doy> mr0t: well, other people have compiled it, and they're allowed to distribute it, since xchat is gpl
09:54 < mr0t> Reprehensible, nah
09:54 < mr0t> they gotta make a buck, right?
09:54 <+doy> the whole charging for the windows build thing is pretty odd, overall
09:54 < mr0t> a man's gotta eat
09:54 <+due> It's an open source project
09:55 <+due> I can't imagine they make that much money out of it?
09:55 < mr0t> i know it goes against open source *principles*
09:55 <+kilobyte> well, Windows users are used to being screwed anyway
09:55 < mr0t> nah, not much, but shit
09:55 <+doy> due: i don't think it's reprehensible, but i do think it's fairly odd
09:55 < mr0t> i'd be happy to get a trickle of $5 a week 
09:55 < mr0t> poverty debases one's perception of money 
09:55 <+due> doy: I overstated, I just like the word reprehensible .
09:56 < mr0t> i used to just ignore pennies, for instance, but since I got laid off, I've been trying to figure out a way to remove the copper plating, as well as to then use electrolysis to extract the zinc, which, I think, surpassed copper in price some time ago, but probably is back down to below it
09:57 < mr0t> i was all excited about the 2 or 3 pounds worth of various silver compounds I found 
09:57 <+sorear> I'm pretty sure that's a felony
09:57 <+due> So... moving on.
09:57 <+due> Especially considering this is a publically logged channel.
09:57 < mr0t> then I looked at the stocks and silver is $20 an ounce, and that is a *high*
09:57 < mr0t> hey, I didn't say I was *doing* it, just trying to *figure it out*
09:58 < mr0t> I don't think it's a felony to look at potential chemical reactions that happen to involve currency, as long as I am not conspiring to actually do it, which of course, I am not
09:58 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
09:58 < mr0t> I'm too much of a coward to break the law, at least here in harris county
09:59 < mr0t> maybe in the country where the jails aren't as crowded as bangladesh
09:59 < mr0t> er, country as in rural areas
09:59 < mr0t> anyway, that sentence was typed by an infinite amount of monkeys anyway, so ya'll got nothing to worry about
10:00 <+doy> publically logged?
10:00 < mr0t> well, even if there was an agent of the US Mint hanging out here, or reading the channel logs, it's not like ya'll would be involved at all, unless your infinite amount of monkeys happened to.. well, you get the picture
10:00 <+doy> oh, this isn't ##c-ot
10:00 <+doy> huh
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10:00 <+due> doy: Yeah, odd how that happens, right?
10:00 < mr0t> I log all my channels, but they go into a heavily protected folder
10:01 < mr0t> priv chats each have their own password just to open the file
10:01 <+sorear> I said the thing you were planning to do was probably a felony
10:01 <+sorear> i never said talking about it was
10:01 <+sorear> not that it was at all clear
10:01 <+sorear> pronouns suck
10:01 < mr0t> It's definitely a federal crime, and probably is a class C felony, or if not, then a class A misdemeanor. I don't know much about federal law though since I've never been involved with it
10:02 < mr0t> hell, federal prisons are like vacation compared to state jails and county lockups.
10:02 <+due> Okay.
10:02 <+due> This isn't ##crawl-offtopic.
10:02 < mr0t> as my habitually criminal friend Mike used to say -- "three hots and a cot!"
10:02 < mr0t> A keen observation
10:02 < mr0t> Sorry, I'm just tired and anxious as hell about a forthcoming thing
10:02 <+due> It's fine.
10:02 < mr0t> I'll not talk about it anymore
10:03 <+due> Be anxious in -ot!
10:03 < mr0t> Nah, you're right
10:03 < mr0t> it crowds away the dev talk
10:03 < mr0t> the thing is though, if I may digress momentarily..
10:03 < mr0t> not everyone in ##c-dev is in ##c-ot and vice-versa
10:03 <+sorear> That's on purpose.
10:04 < mr0t> second, ##c-o/t has about a tenth the activity of ##c-dev
10:04 <+sorear> Those of us who are not in ##c-ot, are not in ##c-ot *because we don't want to listen to people ranting about life, the universe, and everything*
10:04 < mr0t> I'm not saying that because of this ##c-dev should be a free-for-all
10:04 <+sorear> To bring that here defeats the purpose.
10:05 < mr0t> I can't object to that, you're absolutely right
10:05  * doy bed
10:05  * due sleeps on doy.
10:06 <+doy> hey now, i'm not *that* easy
10:06 < mr0t> however, in all fairness, while I did come with a non-crawl or -dev question, I was about to go download that program when the conversation turned to xchat making money, which reminded me of my monetary troubles when someone said why would they even charge for xchat when it couldn't possibly generate much income
10:06 <+doy> d:
10:06 <+due> mr0t: We get the point. You do not have to prove yourself, yourself right, or us wrong.
10:06 <+due> doy: You said you were a bed!
10:07 < mr0t> oh, I'm not trying to prove ya'll wrong, quite the opposite
10:07 < mr0t> But, I do sorta feel frustrated when I always seem to be in the wrong channel. that's nobody's fault but my own, though
10:08 <+due> :|
10:08 <+due> We are quite happy and forgiving and perfectly willing to point out wrong-channelness.
10:08 < mr0t> anyway, rather than continuing to annoy the channel, I'll go download that ISO program, and hopefully be able to play Lords of the Realm / II and get my mind off my forthcoming court date
10:08 < mr0t> heh
10:08 <+due> Byee.
10:09 < mr0t> i didn't mean that to sound vindictive, but it did sorta sound like that reading it back. Ya'll are a great bunch, incredibly patient. If I were a chanop in all the ##crawl channels I'd probably have banned this mr0t character long ago
10:09 < mr0t> anyway, thanks again for the info, due!
10:10 < mr0t> g'nite ya'll, and thanks for obliging my eccentricities as usual
10:12 <+due> sorear: What's hillbilly sting?
10:13 <+sorear> ...that came completely out of left field
10:13 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit []
10:13 <+sorear> hillbilly sting is a nickname for an early game tactic used in beta26
10:13 <+due> COMBAT -- MISSILE OFFENSE
10:13 <+due>  * "Hillbilly Sting" made useless.
10:13 <+due>    (If you don't know, you don't need to know.) 
10:13 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
10:13 < Twinge> Haha
10:13 <+sorear> back in the day, you could throw needles by hand
10:13 <+due> I was reading the crawl-ref page on SourceForge and saw the link to the announcement of stnoe soup 0.1, and decided to read it.
10:13 <+sorear> the acctuacy was quite low
10:14 <+sorear> but it was still good against, for instance, ogres
10:14 <+sorear> very low EV
10:14 <+sorear> and pillardancable
10:14 <+sorear> this was called the hillbilly sting because throwing poisoned needles at ogres was supposed to make you look like a hillbilly, and it duplicated the effects of the Sting spell
10:15 <+due> Ahh, cool.
10:15 <+sorear> hillbillies = US slang for a category of rural low-INT personage
10:15 <+due> "of disruption"? Man, so many interesting things I've never heard of.
10:16 <+sorear> disruption is quite recent
10:16 <+sorear> the brand was only axed in 0.4
10:16 <+sorear> exactly how new are you
10:16 <+due> 0.4.5
10:16 <+due> !lg
10:16 < Henzell> 1232. bookofjude the Skirmisher (L3 OgBe), worshipper of Trog, quit the game on D:2 on 2010-01-21, with 93 points after 1440 turns and 0:04:39.
10:16 <+due> !lg -1231
10:16 < Henzell> 2. bookofjude the Ruinous (L3 DECj), blasted by Sigmund (magic dart) on D:2 on 2009-01-07, with 176 points after 1976 turns and 0:26:11.
10:16 <+due> Didn't start playing until January or last year.
10:17 <+doy> !lg 1
10:17 < Henzell> 1. doy the Grave Robber (L2 DrDK), slain by Ijyb (a club) on D:1 on 2006-12-14, with 109 points after 1193 turns and 0:31:04.
10:17 <+sorear> !gamesby
10:17 < Henzell> sorear has played 3189 games, between 20071215 and 20091224, won 21 (0.7%), high score 9151703, total score 67800863, total turns 21866693, total time 2170:25:43.
10:17 <+doy> !lg s=cv
10:17 < Henzell> 758 games for doy: 294x 0.3, 213x 0.4, 165x 0.1, 35x 0.2, 27x 0.5, 24x 0.6
10:17 < purge> !gamesby
10:17 < Henzell> purge has played 417 games, between 20070102 and 20100108, won 3 (0.7%), high score 2072470, total score 11832610, total turns 3998811, total time 318:51:47.
10:17  * due young. :(
10:17 <+doy> !gamesby
10:17 < Henzell> doy has played 758 games, between 20061214 and 20100118, won 22 (2.9%), high score 9588581, total score 53163470, total turns 7191925, total time 1116:54:16.
10:18 <+doy> there's plenty of people around here who have been around since before stone soup though, so
10:18 < purge> i win vs. sorear in oldness? 
10:18 <+sorear> most people do
10:18  * due doesn't, but doesn't care. :D
10:19 < purge> silence youngin' you need to earn ur seniority!
10:19 < purge> :D
10:23 <+greensnark> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
10:24 <+due> greensnark!
10:24 <+due> greensnark: In my distress, I emailed you. :)
10:25 <+greensnark> What's up :)
10:25 <+due> greensnark: I think I fail with regards tometatables and things. Anyway, I'm off for a bit!
10:28 -!- Spads_ [n=spacehob@78-105-8-188.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Reconnecting"]
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10:32 < Napkin> greensnarking!
10:43 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r0b392a6cf595 /crawl-ref/source/dat/ (blade.des vaults.des): Move Blade to a separate file, for consistency.
10:43 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r3526973df9b1 /crawl-ref/source/ (41 files in 7 dirs): Fix newlines at end of file.
10:43 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r138c8a952c60 /crawl-ref/source/ (18 files in 6 dirs): Whitespace fixes.
10:43 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
10:43 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
10:43 <@dpeg> mornings
10:43 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
10:43 <@dpeg> !messages
10:43 < Henzell> (1/2) Cryp71c said (13h 59m 47s ago): closable: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=407
10:43 <@dpeg> !messages
10:43 < Henzell> (1/1) due said (6h 43m 16s ago): http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:water_creatures_overhaul Fully outlined my amphibiousness proposal at the end of that post.
10:43 <@dpeg> !tell due Already replied, of course! :)
10:43 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let due know.
10:44 <+kilobyte> dpeg: meow!
10:44 <@dpeg> kilobyte: Hallo!
10:45 <@dpeg> proliferation in the dat/ folder :)
10:45 <+Keskitalo> Morning!
10:45 <+kilobyte> well, if Blade would be the only outlier, it's better to be consistent
10:45 <+greensnark> Can we move .des files to dat/des or something
10:46 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, I think that's good
10:46 <@dpeg> perhaps also have subfolders for portal vaults, branch vaults, others?
10:47 <+greensnark> That'd need a vault honcho to split up
10:47 <@dpeg> Am I a vault honcho?
10:47 <+greensnark> I can put in the recursive search for .des files and leave the rest to you/due
10:47 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yep
10:47 <+greensnark> Vault honcho = you
10:47 <@dpeg> off-topic: there is a funny discussion about labyrinths on r.g.r.misc.
10:48 <@dpeg> greensnark: okay, will split after your commit
10:48 <+kilobyte> just note that moving will cause merging issues with branches like wizlab or vaults
10:48 <+greensnark> Right
10:49 <+greensnark> Fortunately, the merging issues will be in due's plate :P
10:50 <@dpeg> yes, Jude will figure it out
10:50 <@dpeg> "Look, we have smeared vaults all over the source base!"
10:51 <+greensnark> Nobody else is changing those .des files, so it should be a simple merge for him
10:51 <@dpeg> Did anyone of you play with syllogism's file?
10:56 <+Keskitalo> I suppose, to delete an outdated wiki page ("Notify IRC channel of view issues", now that Ashenzari has been running for quite some time), I just edit it to have no content?
10:57 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Not yet, but looks very useful. I haven't really kept up with the AC nerf since the basics were laid down, scary formulas and stuff. =)
10:58 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: yes (for deleting wiki pages)
10:59 <@dpeg> Everyone should play with the sheet.
10:59 <+Keskitalo> Yess, it worked.
10:59 <@dpeg> Or better: if you didn't play with it, you're not allowed to complain about AC/EV in 0.6.
10:59 <+Keskitalo> :)
11:00 -!- ortoslon [n=zoob@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:01 -!- ortoslon [n=zoob@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has left ##crawl-dev ["Leaving."]
11:02 < Twinge> Link to said sheet/file?
11:03 <+kilobyte> dpeg: what do you think about my idea to cap mummy scumming?  http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=222
11:03 <@dpeg> Twinge: I sent it to the c-r-d list yesterday. No link :/
11:03 <+kilobyte> !lg * xl=27 min=dur
11:03 < Henzell> 2349. KiloByte the Farming Executioner (L27 MuGl), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by a Shadow Fiend (dispel undead) on Elf:7 on 2009-08-17, with 924633 points after 3285357 turns and 2:33:05.
11:03 <+kilobyte> !lg * xl=27 min=dur -2
11:03 < Henzell> 2348. 78291 the Executioner (L27 DDCK), worshipper of The Shining One, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2009-08-28, with 28587140 points after 51486 turns and 4:26:07.
11:04 <+kilobyte> I'm a very slow player, yet scummed it to xl27 in nearly half the time it took the fastest player without scumming.
11:07 <+kilobyte> if those 5640 nagas 2687 brown snakes 1980 black snakes brought no more exp than (in the infinity) 200 of each, there would be no problem
11:08 <+kilobyte> and a semi-cap at 100 means normal non-botting scummers won't be affected
11:08 <@dpeg> replied!
11:08 <@dpeg> Twinge: if you give me your email address, I'll forward it to you.
11:11 < Twinge> dpeg: I should have it then, just on my alternate/spammy account.  Lemme check.
11:12 < Twinge> Oh, the attachment was scrubbed though.
11:12 <@dpeg> Twinge: give me your email
11:13 < Twinge> twinge@gmail.com
11:15 <@dpeg> sent
11:16 < Twinge> kilobyte: I'd rather start by dropping their basic exp requirement aptritude from 150 -> 140 myself.  That seems like a good way to increase the viability of running a non-scumming Mummy.  I do also agree they should have some stat increase, but probably not as much as you propose.  +1 Int for sure; past there I'm less certain.  (I guess I should post this as a reply to the thread too :P)
11:16 -!- by [n=vollmert@a12.imp.fu-berlin.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:16 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ
11:16 <+kilobyte> !apt Mu
11:16 < Henzell> Mu: Air=140, Armour=140, Axes=140, Bows=140, Conj=140, Xbows=140, Darts=140, Div=140, Dodge=140, Earth=140, Ench=140, Evo=105, Exp=150, Fighting=100, Fire=140, Ice=140, Inv=105, Long=140, Maces=140, Nec=100, Poison=140, Polearms=140, Shields=140, Short=140, Slings=140, Splcast=130, Stab=140, Staves=140, Stealth=140, Summ=140, Throw=140*, Tloc=140, Tmut=140, Traps=140, Unarmed=140*
11:16 <@dpeg> by: Hi!
11:16 <+by> hi
11:16 <@dpeg> Twinge: helping them does not affect their scumability
11:16 <@dpeg> only the "they have to scum" part
11:16 <@dpeg> so there has to be a negative measure, too
11:17 < Twinge> dpeg: Yes.  That's the only part I consider a problem honestly.
11:17 < Twinge> Other aspects could be put into place, but I don't think they should be as extreme as what you guys are proposing.
11:18 < Twinge> When I first saw Mummies in Crawl, my take on them was "Crawl is a game designed around not having to scum for better equipment/experience/etc.  But if you WANT to do that sort of thing, they also have Mummies available for you to play."
11:18 < CIA-81> dpeg * ra886ce98f29f /crawl-ref/source/dat/crypt.des: Fixed testing WEIGHT for glass lich vault.
11:19 <@dpeg> Twinge: taht is Erik's POV. I'd be happier if Mu was an ordinary member of speciety.
11:19 <+kilobyte> a cap of 100/200 doesn't stop scumming, it does only stop scumming using bots
11:19 <@dpeg> kilobyte: it is a start
11:19 <@dpeg> and more OODs would keep non-bots in their tracks
11:20 <+kilobyte> it does disallow getting to xl27 on D:1, or even on Snake:2
11:20 <@dpeg> yes
11:20 < Twinge> A certain section of players likes to play that way, and honestly I see no reason why it needs to be removed.  Weakening it somewhat and making play viable without scumming seems like a good approach to me; nearly eliminating scumming seems unnecessary to me.
11:21 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
11:21 <+kilobyte> that's why I'm nowhere near "nearly eliminating" it, just putting a limit on returns on scumming the same place for ages
11:21 <@dpeg> Twinge: certain players also liked to abuse the staff of earth
11:22 <@dpeg> It is our policy, not that of the players.
11:22 < Twinge> dpeg: Your email doesn't have an attachment :P
11:22 <@dpeg> grrr
11:23 <+kilobyte> Twinge: being a newbie, I searched 83 levels of Pan once since I didn't know how the special levels worked
11:23 <+greensnark> Can we attach the file to the wiki?
11:23 <+kilobyte> Twinge: mostly fully exploring the levels
11:23 <+kilobyte> !log . char=SpAE urune=14
11:23 < Henzell> 1. KiloByte, XL27 SpAE, T:262053: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/KiloByte/morgue-KiloByte-20081108-224408.txt
11:23 <+greensnark> Mummies don't fit in Crawl at all
11:24 <+kilobyte> yet even most demon species didn't get to 100 kills
11:24 <+greensnark> People who enjoy grinding mummies for 800k turns should play a different game :)
11:25 <+greensnark> But even disallowing bots would make things far better
11:25 < Twinge> greensnark: Eh, perhaps.  It still doesn't seem inherently bad.
11:25 <+greensnark> As it is a single mummy bot can hurt a public server considerably
11:25 < Twinge> kilobyte: Yeah I'm just looking at that - 100/200 isn't nearly as extreme as I thought it was.
11:25 <+kilobyte> greensnark: no one sane does that without at least wild macroing.
11:25 <+greensnark> Twinge: Yeah, there's a point of view that NH pudding farming isn't inherently bad either
11:25 <+greensnark> I just happen to disagree entirely with that POV
11:26 <+kilobyte> mummy _do_ have interesting points.  Like, free hunger.
11:26 <+greensnark> I recently had a discussion with someone who though Elbereth - Elbereth! - was fine
11:26 < Twinge> Just looking at the morgue file of a ~L20 dead MDFi I had, and he only killed 1 type of mob over 100 times.  100/200 is probably fine then; for some reason it sounded a lot more limiting than it was.
11:26 <+greensnark> "Because if you're a fool, you may not use Elbereth correctly, and possible injure yourself" was the justification
11:26 <@dpeg> greensnark: who was that?
11:26 <@dpeg> And is stupidity hereditary?
11:26 <+greensnark> dpeg: Someone ##crawl-offtopic who shall remain nameless :)
11:26 <+kilobyte> Elbereth is the single worst thing that ever happened to Nethack.
11:26 <@dpeg> yes
11:27 <+greensnark> But apparently a lot of people in #nethack think Elbereth is fine
11:27 <@dpeg> It is a prime exampe of "awfully bad design".
11:27 <@dpeg> greensnark: They have to, the slackers :)
11:27 < Twinge> I admit I am not very familiar with Nethack, having seen no reason to even try it with ADOM and DCSS available.
11:28 <+greensnark> NH has some nice points, but it's been killed by neglect and an inability by the DevTeam to make hard decisions
11:28 <+kilobyte> Nethack >>> ADOM.
11:28 <+greensnark> They're like the US Senate :P
11:28 <@dpeg> Twinge: it is still considered the biggest (in whatever sense) roguelike.
11:28 <+kilobyte> and it is nearly strictly a new version of Rogue
11:29 <@dpeg> greensnark: it's not just lack of decisions, but also lack of vision, leadership and actual feedback about the game (as of last month, Pat Ranking was not aware how players would abuse Elbereth from turn 1 onwards).
11:29 < Twinge> dpeg: "most well known", probably.  Recieved attachment, thanks.  Guess I'll need to use a converter...
11:29 <+greensnark> Yeah, NH devs should do IRC more :)
11:29 <@dpeg> In short, Nethack is epic fail!
11:29 <+greensnark> I think some o them still use VMS :P
11:29 <@dpeg> Twinge: yes, only OpenOffice, sorry
11:29 <+greensnark> At least the VMS port is still alive :P
11:29 <@dpeg> greensnark: hehe
11:30  * bhaak looks up from sleep
11:30 < bhaak> oh, nethack bashing
11:30 <@dpeg> bhaak: hey, we have fun dissing Nethack. Join in!
11:30 <+greensnark> NH bashing is fine!
11:30 < Twinge> dpeg: I like a lot of free software, but OpenOffice was really slow and not nearly as nice to use last time I tried it, so I've opted to stick with MS stuff in that field for now.
11:30 <+kilobyte> "NH devs"?  If Nethack had any devs left, _something_ would happen recently.  In ~10 years it is effectively dead, only cosmetic releases, then absolutely nothing for 7 years.
11:30 <+due> Hi!
11:30 <+greensnark> Spork and UnNH are different animals, we don't bash them here :)
11:30 < Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
11:31 <+due> !messages
11:31 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (47m 5s ago): Already replied, of course! :)
11:31 < Twinge> Was a little surprised Excel couldn't even open the file though :P
11:31 <@dpeg> No, in fact, I always point hackers to the live branches.
11:31 <+greensnark> Twinge: There's a plugin thingy that can let Excel open it, but it's mostly just Microsoft doing their best to ignore open standards
11:31 <@dpeg> Twinge: well, it is the other way around: openoffice opens M$ programs
11:31 < Twinge> Nod.
11:32 <@dpeg> lets not bash MS
11:32 <+greensnark> Microsoft does distribute a plugin to open OO stuff, but you have to search for it
11:32 <+greensnark> Yeah, MS doesn't need bashing, they do a good job of it themselves
11:32 < bhaak> you're just jealous. you have to do good work to get recognized whereas the devteam doesn't need to
11:32 <@dpeg> greensnark: they deliver it on punchcards?
11:32 <+kilobyte> from what I heard, you absolutely DO NOT want to use it.  Their plugin is intentionally broken, you use the Sun's one.
11:32 <+greensnark> dpeg: Actually it's available on microsoft.com :P
11:32 <@dpeg> bhaak: yes, they do have the advantage of old age
11:33 <+greensnark> kilobyte: Ah, didn't know
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11:33 <@dpeg> intentionally broken <3
11:33 <@dpeg> sounds almost like Nethack
11:33 <+due> Okay, hi
11:33 <+due> Caught up now
11:33 <@dpeg> Hi!
11:33 <+due> Hi dpeg!
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11:33 <@dpeg> I liked how John H from @play likened Crawl to Rogue.
11:33 <+by> due: tell me, what did I miss? doy's log seems to be broken
11:34 <+due> by: With regards to?
11:34 <+by> hi also
11:34 <@dpeg> Perhaps he'll leave the NH-centric stance.
11:34 <+due> There hasn't been anything inteeresting that I've seen
11:34 <@dpeg> mummies only
11:34 <+by> that's enough, thanks!
11:34 <@dpeg> and splitting des/ 
11:34 <+due> Yes
11:34 <@dpeg> due: is that fine with you?
11:34 <+due> Splitting des is a good idea
11:34 <+greensnark> by: There's a spiffy spreadsheet with AC/EV math, can you review it? :)
11:34 <@dpeg> greensnark: you're the head honcho!
11:34 <+due> I'll just have to re-record my merge conflict fix for WizLab
11:34 <@dpeg> and sorear 
11:35 <+greensnark> We don't have too many players who are very good at the game and at math :)
11:35 <+by> greensnark: review in what sense? that it's correct?
11:35  * due raises hand for the "not good at maths".
11:35 <@dpeg> the math is only +-*/ :)
11:35 <+due> dpeg: Argh, thanks for fixing the testing weight. I always seem to do that.
11:35 <@dpeg> Half the devteam is numerically challenged? :P
11:35 <+greensnark> by: That the changes look good?
11:35 <+Keskitalo> Here's the AC/EV overhaul post on cdr with the spreadsheet attachment: https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=alpine.DEB.1.10.1001202040060.3236%40lobster.imp.fu-berlin.de&forum_name=crawl-ref-discuss
11:36 <@dpeg> greensnark: everybody can do it. syllogism'
11:36 < bhaak> dpeg: hehe, old age ... what's the average age of the crawl team?
11:36 <@dpeg> s thingie makes sure you *don't* have to understand the formulas
11:36 <+due> I am very slow to comprehend mathematical formulae unless they are explained.
11:36 <+due> Once they are explained, I have no issues.
11:36 <@dpeg> bhaak: <30
11:37 <@dpeg> bhaak: we have developers who are almost 20!
11:37 <@dpeg> children! :)
11:37 <+due> Heh.
11:38 <+due> dpeg: Leeches, uniques that can swim, etc, should get HT_AMPHIBIOUS_LAND
11:38 <+greensnark> I should look at it soooon
11:38 < bhaak> who probably don't even know what lisp and smalltalk is. education these days!
11:38 <+due> withp?
11:38 <+due> dpeg: Fishes, etc, would be HT_AMPHIBIOUS_WATER, like merfolk (but without submerging for merfolk).
11:38 <+due> And then "floating" monsters  would get HT_LAND and M_FLOATS
11:39 <@dpeg> borsuk has a very good point about submerging == bad
11:39 < bhaak> due: you probably just read that in the jargon file.
11:39 <@dpeg> I will keep saying that.
11:39 <@dpeg> The basic question is: who do we want to submerge?
11:39 < bhaak> are there crocodiles with an out-of-water-attack?
11:39 <@dpeg> I think acceptable answer are: "no-one". Or "actual threats" (e.g. kraken).
11:40 <+kilobyte> fishes "amphibious"?  The very definition of that word means "capable of walking both on land and in water".
11:40 <@dpeg> bhaak is right: letting monsters submerge *until* they attack is fine, too.
11:41 <@dpeg> So I am fine with allowing that. But we should really cut on submerging instead of fleeing.
11:41 <+kilobyte> kraken submerging is utterly broken.  Unlike mere fish where you have a chance of killing them in a single blow, krakens _always_ submerge.  And you have to finish them the scummy way.
11:41 <+Keskitalo> I'll try to attach the spreadsheet to the AC nerf page.
11:41 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: thank you
11:41 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I concede that. But I think that for kraken, submerging as an emergency measure could be interesting. That's not the case for fish.
11:42 <+greensnark> Submerge can be retained, but it does need AI fixes or targeting fixes
11:43 <+greensnark> i.e. let submergers flee
11:43 <+greensnark> Instead of staying on the spot like idiots to be killed with polearms :P
11:43 <+greensnark> And it should be restricted to very few monsters
11:43 <+greensnark> Fish submerging is sooo maddening
11:43 <+due> I think we want to keep some submerging.
11:43 <+due> but not in its current form.
11:44 < Twinge> Agree
11:44 <+greensnark> Also: I think allowing targeting of underwater things was a mistake, and should be removed
11:44 <+due> bhaak: No, XKCD.
11:44 <+by> greensnark: yes
11:44 <+greensnark> As also polearms being able to attack underwater critters
11:44 <+due> greensnark: Agree.
11:44 <+due> I like submerging on principle, because it's cool, but all aquatic creatures seem to use it.
11:44 <+by> greensnark: if we want to allow polearms, then for a polearms user, attackable submerged creatures should all get a ~
11:44 <+Keskitalo> On the top of the page now: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:ac
11:44 <+greensnark> by: And at least it should be clear, right now it's an outright spoiler
11:44 <+due> dpeg: Are you happy for me to implement the amphibiousness changes, though?
11:44 <@dpeg> due: disagree it's cool
11:45 <+greensnark> dpeg: I think submerging-until-attack is cool, but submerging-when-hurt is just annoying
11:45 <+due> Well, it's interesting in some regards.
11:45 <@dpeg> due: yes. But note that there are very few monsters with amphi_land
11:45 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes!
11:45 <+due> dpeg: I think this is okay.
11:45 <@dpeg> due: no, submerging when fleeing is like fleeing, only you cannot shoot them in the back. Uncool!
11:46 <+due> dpeg: Interesting in some regards, annoying in others.
11:46 <+due> dpeg: Also, air elementals.
11:46 <+kilobyte> not being able to attack submerged stuff means they'll be nearly unkillable, for krakens, strictly unkillable
11:46 <+due> kilobyte: We're talking about not allowing stuff to submerge.
11:46 <@dpeg> the one bit I like about all of this is using polearms to attack submerged creatures :)
11:46 <+due> The mental image of someone poking a spear in the water to kill a fish is cool.
11:47 <@dpeg> due: yes, but I said that submerge (for fleeing) shoudl be used at most for actual threats (e.g. kraken).
11:47 <@dpeg> due: agreed
11:47 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: The sewer entrance with the big fish is much easier for those who have a spear, that's pretty cool. :)
11:48 < CIA-81> due wizlab * r01871c5f4bbf /crawl-ref/ (128 files in 15 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into wizlab
11:48 <@dpeg> okay, I will try to make a proposal on submergers, okay?
11:48 < Twinge> Gah bloody 'ell, my converted copy of the spreadsheet didn't retail the actual formula parts.  Guess I'll try another converter :P
11:48 < CIA-81> due wizlab * r5ca03a695142 /crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Iskenderun tweaks, Wucad Mu tiles.
11:48 <@dpeg> erm --okay--
11:48 <@dpeg> Twinge: get yourself a linux!
11:48 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: <3
11:48 <+due> You could just install Open Office?
11:49 <+greensnark> Yes, just install OO
11:49 <+due> greensnark: Did my email go through okay?
11:49 <+greensnark> due: Yes, haven't tried the patch yet though
11:49 <+greensnark> Still finishing up work stuff
11:49  * dpeg twiddles thumbs until recursive des search
11:49 < Twinge> I rather disliked Open Office when I tried it in the past.
11:49 < Twinge> It was super slow
11:49 <@dpeg> Twinge: you said that
11:50 <+due> greensnark: No, it's fine. I just wanted to make sure it went through.
11:50 < Twinge> dpeg: Yes, responding to due/green that just told me to install it :P
11:50 <@dpeg> Twinge: in contrast to MS, there is progress in open source country
11:50  * due submerges Twinge.
11:50 <+Keskitalo> Let me make a PDF out of the spreadsheet
11:50 <+greensnark> Ok, cool don't install it, no sweat either way to me :P
11:50 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: no, doesn't work!
11:51 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: or can PDF include formula, so you can still change Str etc.?
11:51 <+due> Anyway, less rargh-y.
11:52 <+Keskitalo> Ahhh, I see. Out of my skills.
11:52 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: uploading the ods is still good :)
11:52 <+due> I prefer updating the OODs.
11:53 <+due> greensnark, dpeg: I can do the recursive directory searching if you want.
11:53 <+due> Or specifically, just recursively searching ./, ./des, ./des/*
11:53 <+due> I don't think we want to search ./dat/*?
11:53 <+greensnark> due: I've almost finished it here, hang on
11:54 <+due> Oh, okay
11:54 <+due> Sorry, I thoght you were busy with work. :) No worries.
11:54 <+greensnark> Well, I'm in a call :P
11:54 <@dpeg> due: updating the OODs?
11:54 <+greensnark> But I have a nice quiet keyboard
11:54 <+greensnark> And people are discussing scheduling, so...
11:55 <+due> :D
11:55 <+due> dpeg: Bad joke.
11:55 <+due> dpeg: Oh! Pretty curved corridors. How?
11:56 <@dpeg> due: greensnark could do that using the height maps... but perhaps not now :)
11:56 <+due> Hmmm.
11:56 <+greensnark> Hm, dunno if heightmaps are useful for curvy corridors :)
11:56 <+Keskitalo> due: Ah, been meaning to ask, about tiles halo - wouldn't berserk-like film work (just filtering the dungeon features with yellow?)
11:57 <+greensnark> Should be pretty easy with splines
11:57 <+due> Keskitalo: Oh, that's how it works in tiles? I haven't seen berserk in tiles yet.
11:57 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: b-b-but you already posted a nice mockup map with curvy snakey shapes.
11:57 <+due> You did?!
11:57 <+due> Where!
11:57 < Twinge> Oh come on.  The wiki bans Excel spreadsheets from being uploaded? :P
11:57 <+due> I never see these nice things :(
11:57 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: yes, he did
11:58 <+due> Link, link!
11:58 <+due> Splines make me think of spleens and spines.
11:58 <+greensnark> I thought we wanted a more constructed look to the Snake maps
11:58 <+due> Constructed look is essential.
11:58 <+Keskitalo> Twinge: Maybe afraid of macro viruses or something? :) Did it complain about the filetype specifically?
11:58 <+greensnark> So I didn't pursue the snake-holey-theme
11:58 <+due> The nagas hewed it out of rock with theeir own hands!
11:58 <@dpeg> Well, I'd like curvy rooms and curvy corridors; symmetry increasing with depth.
11:59 < Twinge> Kesk: Yep :P  I'll externally link it I guess
11:59 <+due> My intent is to place ellipses, track them, and then generate a corridor between them if that wouldn't place a corridor over another room or an already placed corridor.
12:01 < Twinge> What would be a normal spell difficulty for a level 5 spell? (for playing with the spreadsheet)
12:01 <@dpeg> it is okay to have few rooms
12:01 <@dpeg> (which we'll need b/c of round rooms and curvy corridors)
12:01 <+Keskitalo> Twinge: That'll work, thanks. :)
12:02 <@dpeg> due: but the crucial bit is to generate nice looking curved corridors in the first place
12:02 <+due> So, a functoin that takes two points and attempts to generate a curvy corridor between them!
12:02 <+Keskitalo> It's possibly the "Check uploaded files for possibly malicious JavaScript or HTML code" setting, but I'd rather not tweak those myself.
12:02 <+due> I read the Wikipedia entry on "splines".
12:02 <+due> It has a tag that says
12:02 <+due> This article may be confusing or unclear to readers. Please help clarify the article; suggestions may be found on the talk page. (February 2009)
12:02 <+due> Strongly agree.
12:02 <@dpeg> due: I am pretty sure that this article is only directed at those who can count :)
12:03 <+due> "We begin by limiting ourselves to the univariate polynominal" :)
12:03 <+Keskitalo> :-) I wish wikipedia's math articles had a section for us common folks to explain the very very basics.
12:03 <+due> Univariate--any relation to bivariates and trivariates?
12:03 <+Keskitalo> Us countless people who can't count.
12:03 <@dpeg> "May I suggest that, from now on, the rest of this discourse is conducted by those with brains larger than a grape?"
12:03 <+due> dpeg: :p
12:03 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: grrr
12:03 < Spads> Keskitalo: I found the "simple wikipedia" entries on some core math topics to be really elegant
12:03 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: ?
12:04 <@dpeg> That's a sample on one of my lovely Headfuck records, but I don't know from which movie.
12:04 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Sir I must protest I feel you are insulting my intelligence for not understanding the dilemma herein!
12:04 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Hehe, sounds good.
12:04 <+due> Sir, you comment is an insult to grapes!
12:05 <@dpeg> indeed
12:05  * due eats grapes.
12:05 <+due> Spads: Thanks for the suggestion, actually.
12:05 <+due> Ooh, a java applet that generates splines! Sounds delicious. Any relation to grapes?
12:05 <@dpeg> damn, now I cannot lure due into Chebyshev polynomials anymore
12:06 < Spads> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics <-- "Mathematics, or math (sometimes also shortened as "maths"), is the study of numbers, shapes and patterns. Mathematicians are people whose job is to learn and discover such things in mathematics. The biggest part of mathematics is useful for solving problems that occur in the real world, so many people besides mathematicians study and use these parts of mathematics."
12:06 < Spads> That's still my favorite description of math itself.
12:06 <+due> "natural cubic spline" sounds interesting and promising.
12:06 <@dpeg> but it is all wrong!
12:06 <+due> http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/splines/natcubic.html
12:06 <+due> And looks pretty.
12:07 <@dpeg> due: n.o.t.....f.o.r.....0.6
12:07 <+due> dpeg: :(
12:07 <+due> Okaaay.
12:07 <@dpeg> sometimes, crawling reminds me of educating my children
12:07 <+due> dpeg: Oh, and Darshan has some troves stuff to look at later. :D
12:07 <@dpeg> only that these are 2 and 6, so react responsibly at times
12:08 <+due> Okay, so no Snake for 0.6
12:08 <@dpeg> no, not really
12:08 <@dpeg> enough stuff already :)
12:08 <+due> :)
12:09 <@dpeg> most urgent right now: everyone play with armour.ods
12:09 <@dpeg> then to code it and to test it
12:09 <@dpeg> then
12:09 <@dpeg> !seen henryci
12:09 < Henzell> I last saw henryci at Thu Jan 21 01:31:16 2010 UTC (9h 38m 8s ago) quitting with message Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer).
12:09 <@dpeg> and we can release
12:09 <+greensnark> by: Hm, test output no longer shows up when running, say, ./crawl -test rune. Any idea if this is a messagewindow change?
12:09 <+due> Do you want to look at invisibity for 0.6?
12:10 <@dpeg> due: not sure, no
12:10 <+due> Blade and axe traps?
12:10 <@dpeg> what about these?
12:10 <+due> Can we delete them for 0.6? :D
12:10 <@dpeg> We need to wait for Haran's targeting fix, but he will deliver.
12:10 <@dpeg> due: why?
12:10 <@dpeg> Too many casualties?
12:10 <+due> !lg * kaux=~axe ktyp=trap
12:10 <@dpeg> Deleting them makes T&D more useless.
12:10 < Henzell> 184. Stormfox the Eclecticist (L15 DEFE), worshipper of Sif Muna, killed by triggering a hand axe trap on Swamp:5 on 2010-01-19, with 99295 points after 39652 turns and 5:07:07.
12:11 <+due> Hm.
12:11 <+due> !lg kaux=~axe ktyp=trap
12:11 < Henzell> 1. bookofjude the Frost Mage (L12 MuIE), worshipper of Sif Muna, killed by triggering a hand axe trap in a Labyrinth on 2009-08-26, with 25145 points after 40665 turns and 2:25:21.
12:11 <+due> dpeg: I'm still bitter. ---^
12:11 <+greensnark> !lg . ktyp=trap max=sc
12:11 <@dpeg> hey, that was a trap placed by me =)
12:11 < Henzell> 1. greensnark the Chucker (L1 KoWn), killed by triggering a dart trap on D:1 on 2007-10-06, with 46 points after 225 turns and 0:03:59.
12:11 <+due> dpeg: Slime trails for slugs?
12:11 <+greensnark> How do people die to traps :P
12:11 <@dpeg> due: no, enough new features
12:11 <@dpeg> polish!
12:11 <+due> Slime trails for slugs is polish! It makes them interesting!
12:11 <@dpeg> due: what about tides in volcano?
12:11 <+due> But yeah.
12:12 <@dpeg> slugs are extremely uninteresting monsters...
12:12 <+due> I'll talk to Darshan about the possibility of tidal lava in volcanoes.
12:12 <@dpeg> ...they need more than slime trails
12:12 <+due> We could just delete them.
12:12 <@dpeg> Talking to Darshan is always a good start. Best to call him, he's always on the phone.
12:12 <+kilobyte> including Gastronok
12:12 <@dpeg> no!
12:12 <+due> kilobyte: :|
12:13 <@dpeg> slugs can be repaired but not on a whim
12:13 <@dpeg> for 0.7
12:13 <@dpeg> they could retreat in their shell, for example
12:13 <+due> Slugs... don't have shells. Giant snails do!
12:13 <+due> Merfolk are interesting gnow, at least.
12:13 <+by> dpeg: slugs are great for healing necro DD...
12:14 <+due> So are ugly things!
12:14 <+by> no, they hit you back
12:14 <+due> I meant, the'yre interesting.
12:14 <+by> ah :)
12:14 <+greensnark> Do I have to call msgwin_new_turn to force output?
12:15 <+due> Larvae need to come out of 'w', as a thought.
12:15 <+by> greensnark: there's display_message_window to just render it
12:15 <+Keskitalo> due: Yeah, 'k' an 'a' have room.
12:15 <@dpeg> due: I agree
12:15 <+by> greensnark: msgwin_new_turn is just to print the leading dash with delayed messaging
12:15 <+greensnark> Ok, I'll add a Lua wrapper
12:16 <+by> greensnark: in what situation is it not being rendered?
12:16 <+greensnark> Some of the tests use mpr to print progress, like rune-gen
12:17 <+by> mpr should normally result in a message window redraw
12:17 <+by> what's probably missing is a curses refresh
12:17 <+greensnark> The tests might be bypassing some init
12:17 <+due> dpeg: (I'm scrolling down mon-data to see what's new/changed/uninteresting)
12:18 <+by> we're only issuing curses refresh when reading input and calling delay() currently
12:18 <+due> So, thoughts on making giant ttoads slow but hoppy?
12:19 <@dpeg> due: why not, but frogs are even more jumpy
12:19 <+by> greensnark: just calling delay(0) should work
12:19 <@dpeg> (then again, we already have blink frogs)
12:20 <+due> dpeg: I'm thinking specificall of cane toads.
12:20 <+due> dpeg: I'd really like to add a few new frogs for Swamp, because otherwise it's the same old boring monster set.
12:20 <@dpeg> due: as I said on the wiki, we don't need new monsters when we have boring old ones
12:21 <@dpeg> frogs could have normal speed, but have a random chance of jumping two squares
12:22 <+due> hm
12:22 <+due> dpeg: My issue isn't so much boring old ones, is that the boring old ones are used everywhere; Snake and Shoals have unique monsters to them, Swamp does not.
12:22 <+due> So, solutions are removing some of the monsters from generating outside of Swamp, or providing other monsters that do not generate outside of Swamp.
12:23 <@dpeg> due: but as a general rule, before adding new stuff, look at what's already there
12:23 <+greensnark> by: Calling delay applies the initial clrscr(), but Lua mprs are still not producing output
12:23 <@dpeg> goes for spells, items, branches, species etc.
12:23 <@dpeg> always review first
12:23 <+due> dpeg: Yes, I am at the minute.
12:23 < Twinge> due: capybara!  (okay, so they'd probably jsut be super-rats, which isn't too interesting, but... they'd be capybara!)
12:24 <+due> I still see absolutely nothing interesting about the current frogs. They're all basically boring, except for blink frogs.
12:24 <+greensnark> by: Ok, the mesclr calls were messing things up
12:24 <+due> I like the idea of a frog that spits poison, like a cane toad.
12:24 <+greensnark> I get output once I remove the mesclr
12:24 <+by> ah, mesclr is evil anyway :)
12:24 <+by> one other possible interaction is the cached previous message, so a call to flush_prev_message might help
12:24 <+greensnark> I guess I need a wrapper to do mpr + delay(0) for L:ua
12:25 <+greensnark> Let me add flush_prev_message wrapper also
12:25 <@dpeg> due: yes, I agree. This is why I don't want new cool frogs as long as the boring giant frog sits there. Unhappy, unkissed.
12:25 <+by> possibly, adding flush_prev_message at the start of delay would be a good idea
12:25 <+greensnark> Some of the tests run so long I have no idea if they're running or stuck :)
12:25 <+due> dpeg: Well, how about we make frogs hoppy, then?
12:26 <+due> We can use something similar to the sixfirhy movement.
12:26 <@dpeg> yes, as I suggested :)
12:26 <@dpeg> never seen one
12:26 <+due> Two seconds then
12:26 <+by> greensnark: we could also add a (conditional) call to refresh() to mpr
12:26 -!- Spads [n=spacehob@unaffiliated/spads] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
12:27 <+due> dpeg: I'm termcasting if you want to connect and watch
12:27 <@dpeg> little time, lunch soon
12:27 <@dpeg> there
12:27 <+due> I've got a tame sixfirhy on my tail :)
12:28 <+due> See?
12:28 <@dpeg> yes
12:28 <@dpeg> something like that, yes
12:28 <+due> We could use something similar for frogs, but not make them quite as fast.
12:29 -!- henryci_ [n=henry@c-71-232-165-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit []
12:31 <+due> Linking takes forever. :/
12:32 <+by> yay, it seems tiles is building here now
12:32 <+by> make debug TILES=y BUILD_ALL=y
12:32 <+due> by: yay, it takes forever=y?
12:33 <+by> linking is absolutely terrible here, because I build in $HOME over nfs
12:34 <+due> I can't believe how long it's currently taking. :/
12:34 < CIA-81> greensnark * rbd71ccdb379a /crawl-ref/source/ (81 files in 5 dirs): Move .des files to dat/des, and allow them to be placed in subdirectories of dat/des.
12:34 < CIA-81> greensnark * r9c594d7ed346 /crawl-ref/source/ (12 files in 3 dirs): Update tests to use crawl.message() instead of low-level crawl.mpr().
12:34 <+due> greensnark: Thanks!
12:34 <+due> dpeg: Shall I reorganise the .des files, then?
12:35 <+greensnark> due: Enjoy the delicios merges into wizlab and vaults branches :D
12:35 <+due> greensnark: plz die :D
12:35 <+greensnark> I'd neglected to pull before I made the changes which meant the crypt.des breakup had me spend 5 mins picking up the pieces :P
12:36 <+due> Mwahahaha.
12:37 < Twinge> kilobyte: Still around?
12:38 <+kilobyte> Twinge: $RANDOM_CAT_NOISE ?
12:42 < Twinge> kilobyte: I'm looking at a logarithmic function rather than hard step-downs for moster exp reductions.
12:42 <+due> greensnark: Still conference calling?
12:43 <+kilobyte> Twinge: I considered that as well, but 1. it would bring unneccessary round-off errors, and 2. people would be hurt well before they are considered to be scumming
12:43 < Twinge> round-off errors?  And no, I don't believe they'd be hurt too soon, not how I'm doing it anyway
12:44 <+due> dpeg: I'm wary about switching to this, because it means that giant frogs go from hitting you one every second time while the two of you are moving, to once every third turn.
12:44 <+due> dpeg: It also means that if you stand next to a frog and hit . three times, it'll only attack you twice.
12:44 <+due> dpeg: Is this too much of a nerf for them?
12:45 < CIA-81> by * r0056c04dd891 /crawl-ref/source/cio.cc: Fix buffer not being terminated correctly in line_reader.
12:45 < CIA-81> by * ra98ae0f60d25 /crawl-ref/source/ (libutil.cc libutil.h): Move cgetsize and cscroll outside #ifdef USE_TILE.
12:45 < CIA-81> by * rb375614cbd92 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Fix message_window::scroll to blank the new lines.
12:45 < CIA-81> by * r99c23007500f /crawl-ref/source/cio.cc: Allow line_reader to scroll its region.
12:46 <+kilobyte> my current version (which I was about to push) does xp >>= num_kills/100, which means 2^-⌊num_kills/100⌋
12:47 <+by> in 0.5, a line-breaking line_reader will eventually scroll the entire screen...
12:47 <+kilobyte> we may change that to floating-point 2^-(num_kills/100)
12:48 < Twinge> kilobyte: I'm looking at e.g. 75 kills = 100%, 85 kills = 83%, 100 kills = 66%, 125 kills = 49%, 150 kills = 39%, 200 kills = 27%, 250 kills = 20%, 300 kills = 16%...
12:48 <+due> Is this per-level thing?
12:48 <+kilobyte> due: per monster species
12:48 <+due> Huh.
12:48 <+Keskitalo> due: The frogs close in faster right?
12:49 <+due> So, completing orc is basically pointless?
12:49 < Twinge> due: per moster type, not general species.
12:49 <+due> Keskitalo: Kinda. They lag back, then hurry up to catch witih you.
12:49 < Twinge> So your first 75 orc warlords (in my example) are still worth 100% of their exp
12:49 <+greensnark> due: No, I was dealing with email :)
12:50 <+due> greensnark: :)
12:50  * due heading off to read From Hell shortly, anyway.
12:50 < Twinge> After you've taken out 75 orcs, they drop fro 2exp to 1exp :P
12:50 <+by> due, Keskitalo: it'd be great if you could test tiles -- I can build it but not run it due to missing GLX
12:50 <+Keskitalo> by: Okay, will do.
12:51 <+by> I've also made some changes possibly affecting #165
12:51 <+by> great, thanks
12:51 <+Keskitalo> Compiling here will just take forever. :)
12:51 <+due> I have half a mind to commit the frog changes and see what happens.
12:51 <+greensnark> As long as you don't weaken frogs
12:51 <+due> greensnark: Yes, that's my worry.
12:51 <+greensnark> Test them in arena against the usual suspects
12:51 <+kilobyte> Twinge: what is your formula?
12:51 < Twinge> kilo: How's that look?  I think it's plenty fine to have the 1/2exp start at ~125 kills rather than 100...
12:51 <+by> the test I've been doing is to enter a long note to cause the message window to scroll
12:52 < Twinge> =30/(LOG(NUM_KILLS/6)*NUM_KILLS/2.7)
12:52 <+due> Oh, hey.
12:52 < Twinge> If Kills >75
12:53 <+Keskitalo> by: I'll test the wizmode prompts as well.
12:53 <+Keskitalo> Hmmh, actually, I'm not sure if I have the time today. :/
12:53 <+Keskitalo> Let's see how fast this compile is! :D
12:54 < purge> holy backlog :O
12:54 <+by> don't worry, it's not really urgent
12:54 <+due> purge: Holy runes batman!
12:54 < Twinge> It can be subtly tweaked, but the basic formula layout seems reasonably sound.  =40/(LOG(B2/5)*B2/2.2)  was my first one, which is pretty similar.  85 = 84%, 100 = 68%, 125 = 50%, 150 = 40%, 250 = 21%, etc.
12:54 <+Keskitalo> Silly me doing a distclean build too.
12:54 <+by> debug at least? :)
12:55 < purge> due: they took me alot longer than they should have.. endless fidgiting with textures and layer effects
12:55 <+due> ccache = <3
12:55 <+due> purge: I like the brown + green one.
12:57 < Twinge> There might even be a better way to go about it - I'll admit I'm not too used to using logs in general.  But I do like the spread that creates, and definitely prefer to see it step down gradually rather than killing a mob, getting 400 exp, killing another, suddenly getting only 200.
12:58 < purge> due: thanks :)
12:59 <+due> Okay, give up with frogs.
13:00 <+Keskitalo> due: Aw. Let's look at them later. btw, this sixfirhy-style movement might be right for the Spider Nest tarantellas later on.
13:00 <+Keskitalo> I updated the mantis frontpage message a bit: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php
13:00 <+Keskitalo> Does it look helpful?
13:01 <+Keskitalo> Links to help items missing.. and indeed, the help items themselves. :)
13:02 < purge> spider nest lacks driders??
13:02 <+Keskitalo> It tries to steer FRs towards the wiki.. too strongly?
13:02 <+Keskitalo> purge: Beware of D&D-isms! (although I like the idea too :))
13:02 < purge> half spider half man HAS to be in mythology too!
13:03 <+due> It is
13:03 < purge> they could spit webs that act like nets
13:03 <+by> Spiderman unique?
13:04 < purge> spider unique name = terrorantula
13:04 <+by> jumping from wall to wall in a city layout level?
13:04 <+due> :D
13:06 <+greensnark> purge: Don't call em driders, call them spitaurs
13:06 < purge> greensnark: brilliant :D
13:07 <+by> need scorpitaurs, also
13:07 <+due> Dore's illustratoin of Arachne from Greek myth has her as half-spider.
13:07 <+by> arachnitaur
13:08 < Twinge> archnitaur is better :)  spitaur almost sounds like it is emphasizing 'spit' ;)
13:08 <+due> Arachnotaur would be better.
13:08 < purge> ^ +1
13:08 <+due> 0.7 :)
13:08 <+due> dpeg may strangle us in a fit of 0.6 depression.
13:09 < purge> player arachnotaurs have 4 boot slots
13:09 < Twinge> Hah.
13:10 <+due> Player arachnotaurs get an arachnid barding :)
13:11 < purge> gotta think up what spells arachnotaur spellcasters would use
13:11 <+due> Necromancy and poison.
13:11 <+sorear> arachnotrons?
13:11 <+due> Arachnotrans!
13:11 < Twinge> You know, considering that Ogres and Spriggans can wear the same robe or golden dragon armor, It seems like maybe bardings should be merged?
13:12 <+Keskitalo> "Arachnotaur" sounds pretty good.. I think I have "arachnid" in an old file with 50 bad species suggestions for Crawl. :)
13:12 <+due> Golden dragon armour is magical.
13:12 <+due> Keskitalo: I like "arachnid" as well.
13:12 <+due> Or "arachned".
13:13 <+Keskitalo> Spider's Nest in at least portal vault form would be great to have for 0.7.
13:13 <+sorear> Twinge: robes are always a loose fit
13:13 <+sorear> Twinge: golden dragon armor is tailor-made, which is why it fits anyone
13:14 <+due> greensnark: One minor merge conflict. :)
13:14 <+kilobyte> Twinge: by log, you meant log10, right?
13:15 < purge> I thought there were ideas for a forest branch yet i don't see a page on brainstorm?
13:15 < CIA-81> due wizlab * rc984256563fe /crawl-ref/source/ (149 files in 13 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into wizlab
13:16 <+greensnark> due: Should I be disappointed :P
13:16 <+kilobyte> purge: I really should write up all the ideas discussed so far
13:16 <+Keskitalo> kilobyte: That'd be great! <3
13:16 < CIA-81> due vaults * r31c768943c2d /crawl-ref/source/ (149 files in 13 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into vaults
13:16 <+due> None there, either.
13:16 < CIA-81> due vaults * r78bb0953db77 /crawl-ref/source/dat/ (des/vault_gen.des vault_gen.des): Move in line with current dat/des/ layout.
13:17 <+due> purge: What was the babylonian half/half scorpion called?
13:17 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@166.137.4.27] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:17 < purge> aqrabuamelu (girtablilu)
13:17 < purge>     - scorpion-man, the guardians of the gates of the underworld. Their "terror is awesome" and their "glance is death".
13:18 <+due> :D
13:18 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@166.137.4.27] has quit [Client Quit]
13:18 <+due> that kinda works as a crawl name, too.
13:18 <+Keskitalo> Aqrabuamelu and Girtablilu sound just like Crawl names.
13:18 <+due> I know!
13:19 <+greensnark> Pan lord names? :P
13:19 < purge> http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/assyrbabyl-faq.html
13:19 < purge> ^ lots of interesting stuff in there for ideas
13:21 <+Keskitalo> Tiamat!
13:21 < Twinge> kilo: Yeah.
13:21 <+Keskitalo> Should she be chaotic, with all that colour-changing going on? :)
13:21 <+due> I thin so.
13:22 <+kilobyte> Twinge: http://sprunge.us/ZCRI -- it's exp, sum(exp) for my formula and both of yours
13:25 <@dpeg> cheers
13:27 < Twinge> kilo: Nice.  Didn't realize quite how little difference there was betwee the 2, hehe.  I'd favor the slightly softer one, then (#3)
13:27 <@dpeg> due: re Frogs: well, they could be boosted in some other way. I am also not convinced that simply making frogs and toads hop is good enough. They're more cool, sure, but not really tactically interesting that way.
13:27 <+greensnark> Allow frogs to hop over obstacles :)
13:27 <+greensnark> Like smaller monsters, plants, fungi
13:27 <+greensnark> And stuff like lava
13:28 < Twinge> kilo: (And you should technically have no 0exps, because the minimum possible is 1)
13:28 <+Keskitalo> by: Tiles build starts and runs, looks ok from a glance.
13:29 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@88-148-216-78.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:29 <@dpeg> for what it's worth, I support Adam's formula
13:29 <@dpeg> it is very simple
13:31 <@dpeg> Twinge: 0 xp is okay, because the bots don't care if they get 1 xp or 10 xp
13:31 <+Keskitalo> Gotta go now. Cheers!
13:31 -!- scarf [n=scarf@unaffiliated/ais523] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:31 <+by> Keskitalo: thanks
13:32 < Twinge> dpeg: Hmm, perhaps, perhaps.
13:32 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: bye
13:33 < Twinge> dpeg: Adam=kilobyte?  I really think it just flat feels awkward to kill something, get 400 exp, kill another, then suddenly only get 200 exp.  And yes, this WILL come into play in normal, non-scummed games (just not drastically)
13:33 <@dpeg> Twinge: I think for what we want to accomplish, your approach (smooth xp loss) is not necessary and opaque, rather.
13:33 <@dpeg> kilobyte's approach is blunt and simple, but that is good here
13:34 <@dpeg> Twinge: the 3-digit club is very small: bees, orcs
13:34 <@dpeg> it doesn't really matter
13:34 < Twinge> slime creatures, yaks
13:34 <@dpeg> no way
13:34 <@dpeg> might feel like it :)
13:35 < Twinge> No, they are.  I checked only 1 morgue file and those stood out; level 19 MDFi, no epecial time scumming or anything.
13:35 < Twinge>   114 slime creatures
13:35 <@dpeg> interesting
13:35 < Twinge>   91 yaks
13:35 < Twinge>  272 killer bees
13:35 <@dpeg> but so be it: 14 slimes at 1/2 xp, so what?
13:35 <@dpeg> we should reduce the number of slimes, perhaps, that's what
13:36 <+due> Slimes, yaks and killer bees are the most common monsters that people run into.
13:36 <@dpeg> more than plain orcs?
13:36 < Twinge> orcs are up there, 1 notch below bees
13:36 < Twinge> in this file anyway
13:37 <+due> Among the most common monsters that people run into.
13:37 <+due> I just find the idea of reducing the amount of EXP you can get from a specific type of monster over time simply because Mummies is scummable seems a bit... od.
13:37 <+due> *odd.
13:37 <+due> Why not just get rid of mummies?
13:37 <@dpeg> Twinge, kilobyte: the main point is that a very simple formula will be easy to adapt. If you have carefully chosen parameters (I saw a 2.2 somewhere), that will be harder. This is why I think kilobyte
13:37 < Twinge> Agree with fewer slime creatures, yes.  But hard caps just seems so inorganic.  It's slightly more opaque, but not in any way that actually matters - they're both simple to explain, and truely saying "Killing a lot of something starts to reduce how much exp it gives you" is plenty sufficient explaination; people don't need to know exactly how much it is reduced by.
13:37 < syllogism> where's the formula
13:37 <@dpeg> s approach is more robust
13:38 < Twinge> Why is it harder to adapt with a more specific formula?  They both just plug in rather directly
13:38 <+due> Is this only for mummies, or for everything?
13:38 < Twinge> It would have to be for everything, but mostly only affect mummies
13:38 <@dpeg> due: (1) it is an incentive against all scumming, (2) I also proposed to have fewer re-spawns, and those that come up more in OOD direction
13:39 <@dpeg> I am sick of re-spawned critters
13:39 < syllogism> when I got robe of the archmagi for the first time I thought I was getting less xp because there was some sort of cap :P
13:39 <+due> Well, turning down respawns works.
13:39 <@dpeg> hehe
13:39 <+due> But is scumming really *that* much  of an issue?
13:39 <@dpeg> due: but we need xp caps as an anit-bot measure
13:39 < syllogism> respawns are very important
13:39 <@dpeg> syllogism: why?
13:39 <+due> dpeg: Why?
13:39 < syllogism> zot 5 wouldnt be zot 5 without respawns
13:39 < syllogism> you'll get draconian groups spawning suddenly
13:39 <@dpeg> due: yes, the bots hog up resources on the servers
13:40 < syllogism> while retreating
13:40 <@dpeg> syllogism: *nasty* respawns I am fine with
13:40 < Twinge> due: I like a multi-tiered approach, myself.  And I agree with you here - scumming isn't that big of a deal.  BBut, if it IS to be changed like this, I want it to be done in a logarithmic function :)
13:40 <+due> Surely that's the issue of the server admin, not us?
13:40 <@dpeg> draconing bands: every day
13:40 < syllogism> trivial spawns don't really give any xp
13:40 <@dpeg> due: no
13:40 < syllogism> unless you are a mummy
13:40 <@dpeg> syllogism: but they are still annoying
13:40 <@dpeg> syllogism: they interrupt my travel. I hate that!
13:41 <+kilobyte> dpeg: in my current version that I almost pushed, the spawn rate is halved but anything except for the initial set is 3.5x likely to be mildly OOD (up to 5 levels), and 5x as likely be super-OOD (up to 12 levels)
13:41 <@dpeg> Twinge: a log takes too long to reach 0
13:41 <+due> How many people scum and play mummies that are scummed?
13:41 <@dpeg> kilobyte: that includes both of our ideas, right?
13:41 <@dpeg> due: doesn't matter :)
13:41 <+due> Okay.
13:41 <+kilobyte> dpeg: yeah
13:41 < syllogism> just halfing spawn rates like that without doing some research first seems bad
13:41 <+due> What about bots trying up server resources?
13:41 <+due> *tying
13:41 <@dpeg> One person who solves labs with a script is enough to change labs.
13:41 < syllogism> like how often do creatures spawn just due to the player resting a lot
13:41 < Twinge> syllogism: Halfing seems rather extreme. I was thinking 80%.
13:42 < syllogism> they pose a danger early on
13:42 <+kilobyte> 80% wouldn't be noticeable
13:42 <+due> I still don't get the point?
13:42 <@dpeg> syllogism: halved, but more than doubled threat should be okay
13:42 <+due> Maybe I'm missing something massive.
13:42 <@dpeg> due: which point?
13:43 < Twinge> due: dpeg and kilo (and others) hate sucmming and want it to be ver hard to do or ineffective to do, mostly :P  I think it's fine for one race to be scummable.  Check out the mantis thread,
13:43 <+kilobyte> actually, this change may _increase_ xp output since that 50% will include less popcorn
13:43 < Twinge> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis//view.php?id=222
13:43 <@dpeg> due: We have the following issues: (1) Mummies can be scummed. (2) Mummies have to be scummed, unless you play a challenge game. (3) Mummies can be scummed on an automated basis, hurting servers. (4) Mummy scumming relies on respawns, which also annoys non-mummies.
13:43 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes, I can live with that.
13:43 < syllogism> you can't reduce scumming by reducing spawning rates
13:43 < syllogism> you'll have to eliminate them completely
13:43 < syllogism> or do that xp cap thin
13:43 < syllogism> g
13:44 <+due> I've got mummies quite far without scumming them.
13:44 <@dpeg> syllogism: I know that. This is why we do both.
13:44 <@dpeg> due: which you can still do in the future
13:44 <+due> You just spend a lot more turns resting to regain HP and MP.
13:44 < syllogism> I don't think it's a good idea, at least based on what I've heard so far
13:44 <+due> What sort of impact is this likely to have on normal games, though?
13:44 < Twinge> due: I've heard Icemage has too.  Which is why I like reducing their exp apt 150->140, and raising their stats slightly -- that should help make them more viable without scumming
13:45 <+due> !hs * char=MuIE
13:45 < Henzell> 993. Kjoery the Devastator (L27 MuIE), worshipper of Sif Muna, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2009-03-04, with 12624015 points after 126471 turns and 12:29:44.
13:45 <@dpeg> due: not much. The xp cap should be unnoticed. The tougher respawns should be noticeable. Fewer respawns should disencourage people to scum non-Mummies in Lair.
13:45 <+greensnark> Gang, apparently using clean_map interferes with travel
13:45 <+greensnark> Because it erases monster memory from the map
13:45 <+kilobyte> syllogism: sum(2^-⌊num_kills/100⌋) goes to 200 in the infinity
13:45 < syllogism> I'd rather see some mummy specific solutions or by making scumming dangerous
13:45 <+greensnark> And travel checks that monster memory
13:45 <+due> greensnark: Clean map? ^C?
13:45 <+greensnark> I plan to make clean_map just not display monsters on the X map
13:45 <+due> greensnark: I thought that's what it did. :o
13:45 <@dpeg> greensnark: very good
13:46 <+greensnark> due: No, there's an obscure clean_map oiption
13:46 <@dpeg> syllogism: but tougher respawns do that?
13:46 <+due> Oh, okay.
13:46 <@dpeg> I do not see the problem here :)
13:46 < Twinge> dpeg: Couldn't the server simply be set to have a cap of how much input it can recieve at a time?  Like, 5 commands/second or something?
13:46 < syllogism> where's the mantis thread
13:46 <+by> greensnark: sounds like the correct solution
13:46 < syllogism> dpeg: but you aren't doing just that
13:46 < Twinge> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis//view.php?id=222
13:46 -!- Spads [n=spacehob@unaffiliated/spads] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:46 <+due> Twinge: Or the server admins could just ban people.
13:46 <@dpeg> I have toyed with either (1) no respawns at all or (2) fewer, tougher respawns for a long time. Don't see problems there, only gains.
13:47 <+greensnark> by: Ok, will fix
13:47 < Twinge> due: Yeah (obviously with a stated no-bot policy).
13:47 <+kilobyte> this will also have an effect on waiting out god wrath
13:47 <+greensnark> Any solution that requires the server admin to actively intervene is not good
13:47 <@dpeg> syllogism: the proposal is this: (a) xp cap, to make automated mummy scumming useless; (b) fewer+tougher respawns to make manual mummy scumming harder; this also helps everybody else.
13:47 < Twinge> Fewer, tougher respawns is probably okay but will need a moderate amount of testing I think.
13:47 < Twinge> XP cap seems reasonably unnecesary, but if it is in place, I'd definitely want to see it as a logarithmic.
13:47 <+kilobyte> there is no no-bot policy.  Think TAEB.
13:47 <+due> greensnark: So we should be programming with the intent of reducing the capacity for people to run crawl through a bot?
13:48 < syllogism> end game scumming is fine
13:48 <@dpeg> We like machines. We hate bots scumming mummies. Okay?
13:48 <+greensnark> We should fix the obvious bot-abusable places when they're demonstrated to us by abuse on the servers, certainly
13:48 <+greensnark> I'm not referring to bots with genuine AI
13:48 < syllogism> you cant really bot scum pan anyway
13:48 <@dpeg> Twinge: log is not a good solution, as I explained. I reached 0 too slowly.
13:48 <+greensnark> I'm referring to the stupid mummy farming bots
13:49 <@dpeg> yes
13:49 <+due> There are stupid mummy farming bots?
13:49 < Twinge> due: Next we'll see random questions pop up after you do a repetive activity, like on Runescape or something ;O
13:49 <+greensnark> That bring servers to their knees
13:49 <+due> That's stupid.
13:49 <+greensnark> And seriously try the patience of admins
13:49 <@dpeg> due: yes, that is the point
13:49 < syllogism> well there've been one or two :P
13:49 < Twinge> dpeg: And I consider reaching 0 slowly a good thing :P
13:49 <+greensnark> And force me to periodically kill -9 processes on cao
13:49 <@dpeg> Twinge: please
13:49 <+due> Anyway
13:49 <@dpeg> I stand fully behind kilobyte's change.
13:49 <+due> I still don't understand, but so long as it doesn't impact people who are playing normally, I don't really care. :)
13:50 < syllogism> by the way, they'll still be able to scum all they want with the new system
13:50 < syllogism> 200 hydras is a lot
13:50 <+due> syllogism: They'll just have to wait longer?
13:50 < syllogism> yes
13:50  * due heading off in 10.
13:50 < Twinge> And waiting longer means more scumming which means more server abuse, in the end :P
13:50 <+sorear> please, no UI 'solutions' to the mummy bot problem
13:51 < Twinge> sorear: I was joking, I would cry if that was put into place
13:51 <@dpeg> sorear: where is an UI solution?
13:51 <+sorear> Crawl playing (non mummy) is an interesting AI problem and I'd hate to see it collateral damage
13:51 <+sorear> 04:53 < Twinge> due: Next we'll see random questions pop up after you do a  repetive activity, like on Runescape or something ;O
13:51 <+due> I thought that was a joke?
13:51 <@dpeg> sorear: yes, I fully agree.
13:51 <+due> It seemed ludicrous enough to be a joke to me. :o
13:51 <@dpeg> I am getting my blood boiled up already.
13:52 <+due> Boiling makes me think of tea.
13:52 <+due> Hm.
13:52 <+kilobyte> thanks for the reminder, my cup is empty
13:52 <+due> So's mine, but that would involve effort.
13:52 < Twinge> What's the in-game command for a dump of a live character?
13:53 <+due> #
13:53 <+due> How extreme are we talking about OOD spawns, here?
13:53 <+due> Is it going to make travelling across levels or returning to previous levels to rest from a threat impossible?
13:53 < syllogism> the problem with extreme OODs is that they are also extreme XP
13:53 < syllogism> and often not allt hat hard :P
13:53 <@dpeg> 13:41 <+kilobyte> dpeg: in my current version that I almost pushed, the spawn  rate is halved but anything except for the initial set is  3.5x likely to be mildly OOD (up to 5 levels), and 5x as  likely be super-OOD (up to 12 levels)
13:54 <+kilobyte> I only increased the odds of them happening.
13:54 <+due> Ah, okay
13:54 <+due> So it's the current OOD spawns?
13:54 < Twinge> ...Okay so these exp caps won't do anything except prevent a complete God, 27 in all skills, character.
13:54 < purge> extreme oods are good for conjurers/casters .. very bad for melee
13:54 <@dpeg> Twinge: now compare that with your log formula
13:54 < syllogism> I've never really actually seen these OODs _spawn_ in wizmode
13:54 <@dpeg> purge: depends on what you get
13:54 < syllogism> they've always been part of the initial monster set
13:55 < syllogism> though I havent really tested much
13:55 <@dpeg> yes, I also find OOD respawns lacking
13:55 <@dpeg> only orc bands and what not :/
13:55 <+due> (Also, I never thought a discussion about fixing mummy scumming could become so teeteringly heated!)
13:55 <+due> dpeg: Oh, someone got Doroklohe again. :D
13:55 <+due> dpeg: And completed it!
13:55 < syllogism> which monster set
13:55 <+greensnark> Maybe the OOD rolls are not involved for respawns?
13:55 <@dpeg> due: oh, awesome. Did he like it?
13:56 <+greensnark> Should fix that if that's the case
13:56 <+due> dpeg: Yes. :D
13:56 <+due> dpeg: Was surprised when th ewalls disappeared and demons appeared.
13:56 <@dpeg> yay \o/
13:56 <+due> !lg * br.enter=~wizlab
13:56 < Henzell> Unknown selector: br.enter
13:56 < Twinge> I have a mummy with 1.8million turns, that has spent a lot of time farming Lair:10 (0.5 character), and has only 241 death yak kills and 145 hydra kills.
13:56 <+due> !lm * br.enter=~wizlab
13:56 <+due> Twinge: Okay, so the sorts of limits we're discussing aren't likely to even be hit by normal players?
13:56 < Twinge> Looks to me like the proposed exp caps won't actually do anything but make the scumming process take long, and thus hammer the server even more.
13:57 <@dpeg> due: no, they aren't
13:57 < Twinge> due: Except on monsters that are too common and should be made less common, e.g. yaks, slime creatures, and killer bees.
13:57 < purge> maybe mummies should start to permanently deteriorate after incredible amounts of turns
13:57 <+due> Which can be fixed by making them less common.
13:57 <+due> Though killer bees being prevelant is an issue with the hive.
13:57 <@dpeg> kilobyte: can you look into what greensnark said
13:57 < Twinge> Yes, though bee vaults are common too
13:57 <+due> Okay, cool, well, I am behind the changes too, then.
13:58 <+due> Not that that means anything much :)
13:58 < Henzell> 16. [2010-01-21] clouded the Farming Destroyer (L23 MuWz) entered Doroklohe's Tomb on turn 235071. (WizLab)
13:58 < syllogism> apt
13:58 <+due> Henzell is slow.
14:00 <+kilobyte> the "super OOD" thingy starts after 1400 turns but affects only 1 in 5000 monsters
14:02 <+kilobyte> only the main dungeon gets OODs at all, too
14:04 < scarf> I thought the whole point of mummies was that they were meant to be scummable
14:04 < scarf> (much the same way Pan is meant to be scummable)
14:05 <+kilobyte> you can still scum them, you just need to wary your turf a bit
14:06 <+due> Okay, sleep.
14:06 <+due> dpeg: Remember Botono! ;)
14:07 < Twinge> scarf: Agree.  That's how I've felt about them too.  I DO agree that they should be made easier to play without being scummed, but I don't really agree that them scumming is an issue beyond potential bot/server issues, which should be solveable on the server end of the matter.
14:07 < scarf> perhaps you could enforce a maximum play speed
14:08 < scarf> in order to get rid of server load issues
14:08 < Twinge> That's what I was thinking and mentioned earlier - a cap of 5 commands/second or something, I dunno.
14:08 <+due> Or remove mummies. :)
14:08 <+kilobyte> the 'rest' key has the biggest load
14:08 < scarf> have you ever played a roguelike? 5 commands/second is easily reachable for a human player
14:09 < scarf> still, I'm finding that pressing 5 is rather slow even in a tty compile of Crawl at the moment
14:09 < scarf> especially if the level has one of those vaults with loads of trapped monsters
14:10 <+kilobyte> about all the time spent bot-scumming is waiting for fresh meat, not actually killing it
14:10 < scarf> oh, I discovered a whole new ridiculous method of scumming yesterday
14:10 < Twinge> scarf: Whatever number works best, 5 seemed reasonable and with server lag normal players wouldn't be going muchfaster imo.
14:10 < scarf> basically, you go into the Abyss and wait until you're surrounded by golden eyes in a confined space
14:10 < scarf> then you just hold down control-direction until they're all dead and give you a ridiculous amount of exp
14:10 <+kilobyte> if there are monsters which fail to get to their destination due to plants/congestion/etc, waiting speed falls 10-100 times
14:10 < Twinge> I've also had all trunk games have slow resting too though.  Every single one I've tried since 0.5.2
14:10 < scarf> or until the level regenerates
14:10 <+due> @??golden eye
14:10 < Gretell> golden eye (G) | Speed: 13 | HD: 6 | Health: 6-18 | AC/EV: 0/20 | Flags: lev | Res: magic(immune), asphyx | XP: 189.
14:11 <+greensnark> I think slow resting is because the screen is redrawing every turn
14:11 <+greensnark> Which is a bug
14:11 < Twinge> Ah.
14:11 <+greensnark> Rest is not supposed to redraw anything until the rest ends
14:11 <+due> greensnark: I get a flashing cursor in debug mode, underneat "very full".
14:11 <+kilobyte> another place where mummies can scum: Cheibriados' piety
14:12 <+due> greensnark: What about clouds?
14:12 < Twinge> kilo: Seems like exp caps and reduced respawn both lend themselves to MORE scumming rather tha less, honestly :P
14:12 <+greensnark> Well, debug is a different story
14:13 <+due> greensnark: Also, email! :D
14:13  * due heading off to bed.
14:19 < scarf> I get the same as due about the flashing cursor, but in tiles rather than in debug mode
14:19 <@dpeg> back
14:20 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r473a79216035 /crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Add Tiamat to the chaotic monsters, for her changing colours.
14:20 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r8914c41b98d8 /crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Being an actual spellcaster with chaotic spells doesn't make you chaotic; having chaotic spells without being an actual spellcaster does - you have "innate" chaotic abilities. (Forgot to commit this earlier.)
14:20 < syllogism> Nikola probably shouldn't appear on orc 2, ever
14:20 <+due> Why not?
14:21 < syllogism> all his spells can basically oneshot anyone
14:21 <@dpeg> I'll say it again for the non-developers: we (I think I can speak for the whole devteam) don't want scummable mummies. The no-hunger perk is fine and interesting, but we like neither idea of scumming as is, nor the consequences it brings (like bots killing servers).
14:21 < syllogism> except shock
14:21 < syllogism> orc 4 would probably be fine 
14:21 < syllogism> as players should already consider it dangerous
14:21 <+due> syllogism: But the equivalent D: depth is fine?
14:21 < syllogism> possibly, depends what's the equivalent d
14:21 <+due> This is the problem with using depth as a modifier.
14:21 <+due> D:14
14:22 <@dpeg> due: yes, slightly problematic, but not too bad
14:22 <+due> ??orcish mines
14:22 < Henzell> orcish mines[1/3]: Found in the main dungeon, between D:6 and D:11. Four levels deep. Irregular layout with lots of bubbles; you can get stuck if you aren't careful and don't have digging or infinite supplies of teleportation.  Escape hatches can strand you very easily!
14:22 < syllogism> players don't realize orc on d11 is more dangerous
14:23 <@dpeg> to be honest, I am not happy with that, but I seem to be a minority there
14:23 <+due> Probably why Orc was no-uniques until recently.
14:23 < Twinge> Yeah, that is somewhat non-intuative and I don't think it is stated in game?
14:23 <@dpeg> with a deep branch entry, you're punished twice
14:23 < syllogism> it mostly affects uniques
14:23 < syllogism> just
14:23 <+due> It only affects uniques, yes.
14:24 <+due> Butt it's always only affected uniques.
14:24 <+greensnark> I like the threat in deep branches, but Nikola may be a special case
14:24 <+due> I could just make Nikola !Orc: he's racist and dislikes them.
14:24 <+greensnark> I like meeting Xtahua and Boris in Snake, for instance <3
14:24 <+greensnark> Don't deprive me of my uniques!
14:24 <+due> !lm greensnark uniq=Dowan
14:24 < Henzell> No milestones for greensnark (uniq=Dowan).
14:24 <+due> :|
14:24 < syllogism> xtahua and boris should be native in snake :P
14:24 < syllogism> to
14:25 < Twinge> What's Nikola's minimum depth right now?
14:26 <+due> 14.
14:26 < Twinge> ...Then how could be spawn in Orc:2?  Wouldn't that be 13-equivalent at worst?
14:26 <+due> For Orc on D:11, Orc:1 = 12, Orc:2 = 13, Orc:3 = 14.
14:26 <+due> Followed up stair.s
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14:34 <+due> Heh, goodnight.
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14:38 <@dpeg> kilobyte: still ready to push the commit?
14:44 <@dpeg> kilobyte: an alternative would simply be to not-spawn monsters past the 100th. (And no replacement either, of course.)
14:45 <+greensnark> Places like Zot:5 semi-rely on respawns
14:45 < scarf> that allows a different sort of scumming, though
14:45 < scarf> which is running to a completely cleared level in order to do whatever you want in peace
14:45 < scarf> like alter self
14:45 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, I know
14:45 <+greensnark> Alter self can be removed without affecting anyone :P
14:46 < syllogism> you can already alter self in temple for example
14:46 <@dpeg> syllogism: but Lair is much better: food!
14:46 < scarf> oh, forgot temple was no-spawn
14:46 <+greensnark> If we can fix places like Hells and Zot to work without respawns, removing respawns is the way to go
14:46 <@dpeg> greensnark: as I said, respawns are okay if they're dangerous. Zot would qualify.
14:46 <+greensnark> Or just mark respawns as zero exp :P
14:47 < syllogism> you could keep spawns in zot
14:47 < syllogism> who cares if people scum there
14:47 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, what syllogism says
14:47 < syllogism> and you definitely should keep them in pan/hell/abyss
14:47 < scarf> "You're getting tired of killing all these orcs"
14:47 <@dpeg> no xp after some set number is not a bad idea anyway
14:48 < syllogism> I think it's unnecessary
14:48 < syllogism> and a bit arbitrary
14:48 <@dpeg> it is not very elegant
14:48 <+greensnark> I guess people also scum for equipment from respawns
14:48 <@dpeg> greensnark: people scum anything if they can
14:48 <+greensnark> But yeah, these are mostly academic at this point, whereas the basic mummy bots are demonstrated
14:48 <@dpeg> indeed
14:49 <+greensnark> If players move their scumming elsewhere, we'll smack those places as well :)
14:50 <@dpeg> I really agree with respawns which are at least a bit OOD
14:50 <+greensnark> Napkin: You around?
14:50 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yes
14:50 <+greensnark> Respawns should be dangerous
14:50 < Napkin> yes
14:50 < Napkin> what's up?
14:51 <+greensnark> And if the player exceeds the dawdle threshold, we shouldn't be using the +12 super OOD, buit the b26 +27 super OOD :)
14:51 <@dpeg> hehe <3
14:51 <@dpeg> for reals!
14:51 <+greensnark> Napkin: The old clean_map behaviour was to erase plants that were not in immediate LOS even on the main screen, right?
14:51 <@dpeg> greensnark: but plants should stay on the map
14:51 <@dpeg> all immobile monsters should
14:52 < Napkin> not so sure
14:52 <+greensnark> Napkin: I mean, that's the behaviuour in your game, no?
14:52 < Napkin> it also doesn't put plants in "memory" that are in immediate LOS
14:52 <+greensnark> This lag is making my typing disastrous
14:53 <+greensnark> My patch to clean_map hides monsters in X-map
14:53 <+greensnark> But shows them in the main view even if they're outside LOS
14:53 <+greensnark> I don't know which behaviour is prefereable to clean_map users, because i maqn ot one :)
14:53 <+greensnark> *I am not one
14:54 < Napkin> wasn't aware it'll also show them on X :-O
14:54 <+greensnark> :/
14:54 <+greensnark> No
14:54 <+greensnark> I'm saying it weill not show them on X
14:54 <+greensnark> But it does show them in the main view
14:54 <+greensnark> Where "it" = my current patch to clean_map behaviour
14:55 <+greensnark> And my question is: should it hide monsters in the main view that are outside LOS?
14:55 <+greensnark> Which is what the old clean_map does
14:55 <+greensnark> As far as I can make out,m anyway
14:55 < Napkin> I enabled clean_map to not have them in main view, i think. I didn't know they are shown on X
14:55 < Napkin> but
14:56 < Napkin> thinking about it - I was always missing the fact that plants were not shown on X
14:56 < Napkin> now I know why
14:56 <+greensnark> I can tweak clean_map to not hide immobile monsters
14:56 <+greensnark> As dpeg suggested
14:56 < Napkin> that would be very cool
14:56 <+greensnark> But for other monsters
14:56 <+greensnark> What is the desired behaviour
14:57 < Napkin> have them not shown on any
14:57 <+greensnark> Ok
14:57 <@dpeg> greensnark: Ctrl-C should clear mobile monsters in both maps
14:58 <+greensnark> I think it currently clears all monsters, right?
14:58  * greensnark hasn't used ^C in a while
14:58 < Napkin> oh - that would be also a way to go - use clean_map false and use ctrl+c
14:59 < Napkin> i know i am driving you crazy :-$ sorry, greensnark 
14:59 <+greensnark> ^C is manual cleanup
14:59 <+greensnark> Let me fix both
15:00 <+greensnark> Although if nobody needs clean_map, we should toss it
15:00 < Napkin> let me check, greensnark 
15:00 <+greensnark> It's one of those really obscure options :P
15:00 < Napkin> hey! :-P
15:01 < Napkin> on CDO only me and crackman, greensnark 
15:02 < Napkin> and crackman is no longer playing (former colleague)
15:02 < Napkin> but if you like, I can start using ctrl+c
15:02 <+greensnark> I remember crackman
15:02 <+greensnark> Lots of ghosts :)
15:02 < Napkin> hehehe
15:02 <+greensnark> Let me fix these anyway
15:02 < Napkin> ja :)
15:03 < Napkin> i think clean_map should not show "ghosts" of mobile monsters on neither X nor view_port
15:03 < Napkin> and that's what ctrl+c should remove too
15:03 < Napkin> ??
15:03 < Henzell> [1/2903]: 
15:03 < Napkin> :D
15:06 <@dpeg> I use clean map!
15:06 < Napkin> not on cdo
15:06 < Napkin> :-P
15:06 <@dpeg> Napkin: crackman no longer plays? :(
15:06 <+greensnark> dpeg: You mean ^C or the option
15:06 < Napkin> no, he got caught by eve online
15:07 <+greensnark> MMORPGs are daedly :P
15:07 <@dpeg> greensnark: ^C
15:07 <+greensnark> I have a friend who plays 4 hrs of WoW every day :P
15:07 <@dpeg> I apologise if you talked about something different
15:07 <+greensnark> dpeg: There's a weird option called "clean_map" that only Napkin uses :)
15:08 <@dpeg> greensnark: does not sound good
15:08 <@dpeg> (the WoW story)
15:08 <+greensnark> Yeah, his wife hates it :P
15:08 <+greensnark> He stopped playing WoW some time back, actually
15:08 <+greensnark> But plays DF instead :P
15:09 <+greensnark> This is why I do not want to try DF ever :P
15:09 <+greensnark> With Crawl I can stop playing whenever I want
15:09 <@dpeg> yes, DF is a reason to get divorced
15:11 < Adeon> DF <3
15:12 <@dpeg> hehe, getting long time lurkers out of the bushes that way
15:12 < Adeon> agh
15:14 <@dpeg> although their speech is a bit rusty after years of lurking :)
15:25 <+kilobyte> about scumming good gods' piety, are we going to do anything for piety for exploration instead of waiting?
15:25 -!- lorimer [n=granny@adsl-068-209-119-143.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:25 <+kilobyte> gods which accept kills (ie, nearly all) shouldn't accept monsters which are way under your level, too
15:26 < lorimer> bunch of lamers!
15:26 <+greensnark> <3
15:26 < bhaak> look, we have a lorimer!
15:26 < lorimer> \o/
15:26 < lorimer> it seems quieter here
15:26 < bhaak> dpeg: kick him! he only wants to steal your best ideas!
15:27 < lorimer> bhaak: the preciousss, i wantss it
15:27 <+greensnark> Sorting ##crawl-dev's ideas by quality will need a supercomputer, so they're safe for the next few hundred years :)
15:27 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes, I am waiting for piety for exploration for so long.
15:27 <@dpeg> It is also a prerequisite for the thief god.
15:27 < lorimer> greensnark: take 90%, deposit in bit bucket
15:28 < lorimer> greensnark: steal rest :D
15:28 <@dpeg> *hack has been recently abandoned by the UN.
15:28 <+kilobyte> to stop CB mummies from sitting on D:1, I added:
15:28 <+kilobyte> (you.experience_level < you.your_level + 2 + level / 2 + random2(5))
15:29 <@dpeg> kilobyte: to what?
15:29 <+kilobyte> but that's really, really mild and stops only worst abuse
15:29 < lorimer> dpeg: that's five years later than the dev team did.  :D
15:29 <@dpeg> lorimer: hehe
15:29 <@dpeg> lorimer: don't be so optimistic!
15:29 <+kilobyte> UN = ?
15:29 <@dpeg> United Nations
15:29 < bhaak> hey, the last file release from the devteam was 2 months ago!
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15:29 < lorimer> actually pat has been much more forthcoming lately about the existence of "dev" code
15:29 <@dpeg> bhaak: what did they do?
15:29 < lorimer> it seems perhaps someone has lit a fire under someone
15:30 <@dpeg> kilobyte: so it's the above level cap, plus the respawn change?
15:30 < lorimer> ...whether this amounts to anything is another story entirely
15:30 <@dpeg> lorimer: he wrote to you?
15:30 < bhaak> dpeg: add the recover program to the mac distribution :)
15:30 < lorimer> dpeg: no, he litters on RGRN occasionally and he talks to bhaak :D
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15:31 <@dpeg> a hopeless case
15:31 <+kilobyte> dpeg: I mean a separate issue, mummies/vampires can get CB piety by the good old scumming methods even when they provide no exp
15:31 <@dpeg> ah, I see
15:31 <@dpeg> CB piety is constant over time?
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15:32 <+kilobyte> yes, this is why it won't work with other gods
15:32 -!- stabwound1 [n=sh@node510.wl-a.pppoe.execulink.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:32 <@dpeg> hey, a stabwound
15:32 <+kilobyte> it's still alive!
15:33 <@dpeg> kilobyte: greensnark, due, I are fine with your spawning change.
15:33 <@dpeg> kilobyte: can you test if those OOD monsters actually generate?
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15:35 < lorimer> happy split time?
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15:36 <+kilobyte> dpeg: sure, I'll take a look
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15:37 <@dpeg> kilobyte: also, someone said that OOD respawns don't work outside the main dungeon. That's bad, I think.
15:37 <@dpeg> (but I don't know if it's true in the first place)
15:37 <+kilobyte> mon-place.cc, line 398
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15:40 <@dpeg> kilobyte: any reason not to extend this to other branches?
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15:42 < Ashenzari> Snake pits rune submissions (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=491) by purge
15:43 <+kilobyte> other branches have much stricter separation of levels
15:43 <+kilobyte> I'm not sure if they can't get OODs by other means, too
15:44 <@dpeg> syllogism indicated that not
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15:49 <+kilobyte> tests results: lesser OODs do happen, greater OODs require thousands of spawns to happen
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15:51 <+kilobyte> those "lesser OODs" are snakes, worms and similar junk though, so they're nothing to be excited about.
15:52 <+greensnark> We can give lesser OOD injections of caffeine
15:52 <+greensnark> Early game's too damn easy anyway :)
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15:53 < syllogism> hopefully we'll see yellow wasps in lair more than once every 5000 games now
15:53 < CIA-81> greensnark * r573a83e1dafa /crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Fix clean_map so it only affects level-map display and does not actually erase map monster memory (Napkin).
15:54 <+by> gradual respawned monster speed increase over time?
15:55 < Napkin> \o/
15:56 < Napkin> thank you very much, greensnark :))
15:56 < scarf> by: that makes even non-mummies capable of scumming, but I love that idea
15:56 <+greensnark> Increasing respawn rate does contribute directly to farming
15:56 < scarf> perhaps corpse drop rate could go down over time too, to prevent farming
15:56 <+by> I meant monster speed, not respawn rate
15:57 <+greensnark> by: Nasty :P
15:57 < scarf> oh, you mean the monsters just start running around faster?
15:57 <+by> yes
15:57 <+greensnark> By turn 500k, everything is speed 30 :P
15:57 <+greensnark> Apart from the player ;P
15:57 < scarf> I do like the idea of an insanely out-of-depth monster turning up now and again
15:57 < syllogism> Vestibule had funny spawning mechanics for a while
15:57 < syllogism> monsters were spawning faster than I could kill :(
15:57 <+greensnark> Yeah, I cranked up Vestibule spawn rate for a bit, it was hilarious
15:58 < scarf> it's actually interesting comparing roguelikes for spawn rate; for instance, in pokemon mystery dungeon the monsters respawn faster than you regenerate
15:58 <+kilobyte> right now it's ~20 yaktaur captains and stone giants attacking you at once, then nothing
15:58 < scarf> so unless you're really good at one-shotting them, eventually you have to move onwards to avoid running out of hp
15:59 < scarf> what about making the levels themselves deteriorate over time?
15:59 < scarf> so eventually it looks like what would happen if lugonu decided to get xom's attitude
15:59 < scarf> and is full of demons everywhere
16:00 <+greensnark> By the way, whoever cleaned up map memory code, nice work
16:00 < CIA-81> kilobyte * rbf6576bdb2e4 /crawl-ref/source/ (newgame.cc player.cc): Mummy reform 1/3: the goodies.
16:00 <+by> that was me mostly, thanks
16:00 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r42b59c174d54 /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc player.h): Mummy reform 2/3: diminishing gains for hundreds of kills.
16:00  * greensnark remembers the map memory massacre in b26.
16:00 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r17679527ba28 /crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc mon-place.cc): Mummy reform 3/3: cut monster spawns by half, generate more OODs.
16:00 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r6ef73463abd1 /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/gods.txt religion.cc): Drop piety for gourmand with CB (scummable).
16:00 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r6d2b6e59eb11 /crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Disallow scumming D:1 for CB piety. Slightly increase the gains otherwise.
16:00 < CIA-81> kilobyte * re7cb82bc02da /crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc describe.h religion.cc religion.h): Fix bad display of Chei's powers.
16:00 <+greensnark> Doing anything involving the map in b26 was like walking on broken glass :P
16:01 <+by> greensnark: well, the recent changes were mine
16:01 <+by> I have no idea what it was like in b26 :)
16:01 <+greensnark> Well, it was only slightly improved from b26 until 0.4 at least
16:01 <+by> it's still a mess in some sense, with some code manipulating env.map_knowledge directly and other using the get_map_knowledge_*
16:02 <+by> also, I'm not at all sure the colour handling is a good idea -- I saw the colour in there, so I used it more extensively, but it's a bit of a mess
16:02 <+greensnark> Yay, mummy fixes <3
16:03 <+by> I think initially the colour was in there only for colouring out-of-sight items, but that only became clear later
16:03 <+greensnark> The colour handling is still classic b26, especially travel colours :)
16:03 <+greensnark> I still have scars from b26 map code
16:03 <+greensnark> Where the map memory was 0-based
16:03 <+greensnark> But the map grid was 1-based!
16:03 <+greensnark> That was awesome
16:04 <+by> yikes, I think I removed some out-dated comments about this
16:04 <+kilobyte> well, the spawn/OOD rate thing affects everyone, and it's likely we'll be messing with it shortly...
16:04 <+kilobyte> greensnark: and what about those numbered entries everywhere?
16:05 <+kilobyte> we probably should get rid of remnants, like the comments in enums and compile checks when the number of enums is increased
16:06 <+by> kilobyte: be bold!
16:07 <+greensnark> Those enum numbering comments are madness :P
16:08 <+greensnark> Plus the strategic gaps in the enums :P
16:08 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@189.27.197.4.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:08 <+greensnark> Compile checks still make sense in places where enums need matching strings, but for simple cases where we can use Perl to create the string arrays, we should do that
16:09 <+greensnark> I am not 100% comfortable with the use of perl in the build, though
16:09 <+greensnark> It makes life hard for people using things like Visual Studio
16:10 <+greensnark> Not that there are many alternatives
16:10 <+greensnark> Doing this stuff in C++ is pain
16:10 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:10 <+greensnark> NetHack compiles a program called makedefs just to generate enum constants and stuff
16:11 < scarf> yep, although it tends to break save compat
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16:16 < bhaak> perl? you already have lua, why not use that?
16:18 <+kilobyte> lua sucks ass for string handling
16:18 <+kilobyte> and you'd need to compile it anyway
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16:41 <+doy> i am not a fan of reducing exp gain like this
16:41 <+doy> it's opaque and spoilerish
16:41 <+doy> and feels very heavy-handed
16:42 <+doy> i do fully support bringing back actual ood monsters though
16:42 <+doy> pretty sure they were nerfed way too hard in 0.2 or whatever
16:43 <+greensnark> I'm fine with xp reduction if the player is actively farming a level
16:43 <+greensnark> XP is overrated anyway
16:43 <+greensnark> I am also for bringing back actual OOD
16:43 <+doy> i just don't like it because it's a complete spoilerly mechanic
16:43 <+by> alternatively, players could bleed XP over time
16:43 <+greensnark> Add a note in the manual
16:43 <+greensnark> If the player is grinding, I don't care much for their problems in life :P
16:44 <+doy> by: i would like that better, but i think most people would disagree with me
16:44 <+doy> (:
16:44 <+greensnark> Bleeding XP also works
16:44 <+greensnark> Any reasonable mechanic to prevent players from camping D:1 till the end of time
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16:44 <+greensnark> But I think the solution that's already in is ifne
16:44 <+doy> why wouldn't increasing ood spawn rate do this?
16:44 <+greensnark> *fine
16:45 <+doy> oh, it's already in?
16:45 <+doy> /:
16:45 <+greensnark> I think so, yes
16:45 < scarf> hmm, the issue is mostly with atheist mummies
16:45 < scarf> all other mummy-legal gods bleed piety
16:46 <+greensnark> I think the xp reduction is very reasonable
16:46 <+doy> scarf: i don't see how that makes a difference
16:46 <+greensnark> And that this kicking about reducing xp is similar to the howls of protest for removing xp from summons :P
16:46 < scarf> doy: because eventually you'll get god wrath issues
16:46 < scarf> if you try to scum forever
16:46 <+greensnark> You do have to kil ridiculous amounts of monsters before xp reduction activates
16:46 <+doy> greensnark: yes, that was my "i think most people would disagree with me" comment
16:47 < scarf> greensnark: there should be an in-game message
16:47 < scarf> when it starts reducing, something like "you're getting bored of killing all these orcs"
16:47 <+greensnark> scarf: And who would notice it? :P
16:47 <+doy> scarf: but if you're powerful enough to farm like this, being an athiest doesn't matter
16:47 <+greensnark> Unless you make it a force_more
16:47 < scarf> doy: that's the issue, really; atheist is broken as a god in that circumstances
16:47 <+greensnark> And even then the bots would just flip past it
16:47 <+doy> scarf: what?
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16:47 <+doy> the purpose of gods isn't to put a time limit on anything
16:47 < scarf> doy: precisely because it doesn't have a clock
16:47 <+doy> gods aren't intended to be clcoks
16:48 <+doy> hence why we have good gods, etc
16:48 < scarf> strange, to me they seem rather designed for that purpose
16:48 < scarf> apart from good gods, which are banned for undead
16:48 <+greensnark> Piety decay can work like a clock
16:48 < scarf> I assumed the reasoning was so that every character had either a food clock or piety clock
16:48 <+greensnark> But a mummy bot would generate enough piety
16:48 <+doy> there are several proposals for steady piety non-good gods
16:49 < scarf> (is no-good-gods-for-undead a gameplay-based or flavour-based restriction, by the way?)
16:49 <+doy> scarf: but atheist has always been a choice
16:49 <+doy> and always will be a choice
16:49 < scarf> agreed
16:49 <+doy> so it's not a really effective clock
16:49 < scarf> heh, I'm pretty sure there was at least one atheist clock proposal in bad_ideas
16:49 <+doy> i mean, mummies can just abandon their god and wait out wrath before starting to farm anyway
16:50 < scarf> something about Xom deciding to adopt the character
16:50 < scarf> IMO, "atheist is broken" is not a reason to get rid of atheist, especially given how precise the circumstances need to be
16:51 <+doy> and atheist isn't broken
16:51 <+doy> there are other mechanics which only work well if you assume atheist
16:52 <+doy> but it's those other mechanics which are broken
16:52 < scarf> hmm, really, no individual game element can be broken, just a combination
16:52 < scarf> except maybe Elbereth
16:53 <+greensnark> Tolkien estate should have a word with NH devs about destroying their trademark value :P
16:54 <+greensnark> "Elbereth" is exclusively associated with a negative thing :P
16:54 <+greensnark> It's like the silly snitch idea in Harry Potter :P
16:55 < scarf> the funny thing is, it's an optional feature in the game, just everyone always leaves it on for some reason
16:55 < cbus> scarf, its default
16:55 < cbus> thats why :)
16:56 <+greensnark> Elbereth isn't exactly optional, it's tied to unrelated things like crowning
16:56 < scarf> greensnark: it's tied to exactly one unrelated-except-flavour thing, which is crowning
16:56 <+greensnark> But even if it were optional, it's a compile-time default, so yeah, what cbus said
16:57 < scarf> hmm, I've actually come to the conclusion that the most fundamental discriminator of how a roguelike works is which clocks are involved
16:58 < scarf> Crawl has a food clock (sometimes), and a piety clock (sometimes)
16:58 <+doy> crawl needs to bring its ood clock back
16:58 < scarf> NetHack doesn't really have any clocks that aren't trivial to get around in the early game, which leads to scumming
16:58 < scarf> Angband has the light clock, but again only early-game; besides, it's pretty much designed for scumming
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16:58 < scarf> and pokemon mystery dungeon has an HP clock, as well as the arbitrary max-time-on-level clock
16:59 < bhaak> scarf: and DF?
16:59 < scarf> bhaak: isn't a roguelike
16:59 <+doy> hmmm, you know
16:59 < scarf> it's a strategy game
16:59 <+doy> a better idea than having arbitrary exp penalties across the board
16:59 <+doy> would be to just give mummies some kind of clock of their own
16:59 < scarf> (the PMD time-on-level clock is the simplest and most arbitrary solution to scumming I've ever seen; if you spend too long on any particular level, you just die outright; there are warnings, ofc)
17:00 <+greensnark> doy: Who would these exp penalties penalise that you're so worried about?
17:00 <+greensnark> I don't see the xp penalties affecting anyone who is not grinding, so I flat cannot understand your concern here
17:00 < bhaak> scarf: Adom and Omega?
17:00 < syllogism> it's a clumsy solution
17:00 < scarf> bhaak: don't know enough about them to say
17:00 <+doy> greensnark: i dislike it on principle
17:00 <+doy> hidden mechanics for no good reason
17:00 <+greensnark> Oh well
17:00 <+greensnark> I disagree with "no good reason"
17:00 <+doy> and yes, it's a clumsy solution
17:01 <+greensnark> And we can just document it
17:01 < bhaak> people don't read
17:01 <+greensnark> "clumsy" is subjective
17:01 < scarf> I remember that both my and bhaak's solutions to a similar problem in NetHack (score from farming) are very similar to XP dropoff in Crawl
17:01 <+greensnark> There may be more elegant solutions, but this one is simple
17:01 <+doy> yeah, crawl is very much a "manual optional" type of game
17:01 <+greensnark> Come up with something elegant and simple that solves the problem, and we can change it
17:01 <+greensnark> It can be unhidden fairly simply
17:01 < scarf> anyway, one silly issue with limiting XP
17:02 < scarf> is that people can still farm for monster inventory
17:02 <+greensnark> scarf: Agreed there
17:02 <+greensnark> And Nemelex piety
17:02 <+doy> scarf: less of an issue because monsters rarely have anything interesting that you can't get through normal playing
17:02 < scarf> yep, I was about to mention that that would be the simplest use of a monster inventory
17:02 <+doy> and you can't sell items
17:02 < scarf> doy: you could just wait until a goblin generates with an insane randart, or something
17:02 < scarf> that's theoretically possible, isn't it?
17:02 <+doy> and keeping nemelex piety up while farming would be much more difficult to script
17:03 <+doy> i don't think monsters can spawn with randarts
17:03 < scarf> and my idea isn't to keep nemelex piety up
17:03 < scarf> you collect a million daggers, then convert to nemelex and sacrifice the lot
17:03 < syllogism> wouldnt a simple solution be to just stop spawning monsters
17:03 < scarf> instant maxed-out piety
17:03 <+doy> regardless, levels have an item limit
17:03 <+greensnark> syllogism: Right, we discussed that, but I missed the end of that discussion?
17:03 <+doy> of like 500 or something
17:03 <+doy> so this isn't very useful
17:04 < scarf> doy: then you dump your 500 daggers onto a level immediately as you go onto it
17:04 < scarf> all game
17:04 < scarf> and none of the monsters you ever face will have an inventory
17:04 < syllogism> greensnark: yes we did but apparently it was vital to commit it asap
17:04 <+greensnark> syllogism: Ah, this upsets you too? :P
17:04 < scarf> which makes the game much easier
17:04 < scarf> (sort of like the 200 meatball steal in NetHack)
17:04 < syllogism> greensnark: I kill hundreds of monsters in a zig :P
17:04 <+greensnark> Doesn't mean it can't be changed :)
17:04 <+greensnark> syllogism: Face it, do you give a shit about the xp at that point? :P
17:04 < syllogism> slightly
17:04 < syllogism> somewhat
17:05 <+doy> greensnark: does the level item cap apply to monster inventories?
17:05 <+greensnark> doy: Yes
17:05 < scarf> ooh god
17:05 <+greensnark> Monster inventories are handled badly
17:05 < syllogism> plus if you stop spawning monsters it makes spawning good god piety harder
17:05 < syllogism> as they'll run out of food
17:05 < syllogism> err
17:05 < syllogism> scumming
17:06 <+greensnark> syllogism: Agreed
17:06 <+greensnark> It worked pretty well to end Vestibule scumming
17:07 <+greensnark> Possibly only Zot, Hells and Pan should allow monster regen
17:07 <+doy> another idea would be to make it possible to generate monsters from other branches if you stay on a level too long
17:07 <+greensnark> *respawn
17:07 <+doy> "wandering monsters" or so
17:07 <+doy> so that camping any level could get you a lich or whatever
17:09 <+doy> since the problem with the ood clock being an effective limiter was that some branches don't have any effectively dangerous monsters?
17:09 <+greensnark> Yes
17:09 <+greensnark> Like Hive and Lair
17:09 <+doy> well, can't imagine getting any meaningful amount of exp from hive
17:09 <+doy> but lair, yeah
17:09 <+greensnark> Time Hive became a portal vault anyway
17:09 <+doy> also true
17:09 <+greensnark> bees give surprising amounts of xp
17:09 <+greensnark> @??killer bee
17:09 < Gretell> killer bee (k) | Speed: 20 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 2/18 | Damage: 10(poison) | Flags: fly | Res: magic(12) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 61.
17:10 <+greensnark> And they generate in swar,s
17:10 <+doy> hmmm, i suppose
17:10 <+greensnark> And they're trivialto kill at a certain point
17:10 <+greensnark> If you dig yourself a corridor
17:10 <@rax> They're more dangerous than big kobolds early but provide less XP, I'd argue.
17:10 <+doy> i always underestimate big kobolds
17:11 <+doy> they have more hp than i expect, every time
17:11 <@rax> !killsby big kobold
17:11 < Henzell> 367 games for * (ckiller=big kobold): 7x crawlie, 6x 78291, 5x heteroy, 5x adamzap, 5x clouded, 4x pointless, 4x rolfh, 4x Grimm, 4x Nikinyo, 4x Tityrus, 3x Leibowitz, 3x Appoxie, 3x eben, 3x splat, 3x simul, 3x chilliwack, 3x Radicchio, 3x nmf, 3x Kyrris, 3x Archibald, 3x zyrkx, 3x sorear, 3x AuditDaFed, 3x aristotle, 3x Jaeger, 3x IamThem, 3x Mong, 3x jejorda2, 2x purge, 2x earlybird, 2x Iaido, ...
17:11 <+greensnark> Try, but we're talking about farming the Hive, and if bees respawn in the Hive, their xp is sufficient to farm
17:11 <+greensnark> *True
17:11 <@rax> !killsby killer bee
17:11 < Henzell> 2167 games for * (ckiller=killer bee): 30x 78291, 26x splat, 25x poop, 24x IronRobin, 21x ekaterin, 21x coweater, 21x crawlie, 20x chilliwack, 19x redwood, 18x heteroy, 18x Nexos, 16x sorear, 15x Dalarist, 15x Archibald, 14x Chog, 13x jilles, 13x oniyuri, 13x yap, 13x Ping, 13x rob, 13x mafalda, 12x Radicchio, 12x Johan, 12x Temoid, 12x Grimm, 11x aristotle, 10x Lemuel, 10x Tenaya, 10x daf, 10x je...
17:11 <+greensnark> Trunk allows large kobold packs earlier, they're fun <3
17:11 <+greensnark> But yes, definitely less dangerous than bees
17:11 <@rax> I would argue that there are many better ways to deal with farming Hive than to make killer bees an even more miserable experience for early characters.
17:11 <+doy> !lg killer~~killer bee|big kobold s=killer
17:11 < Henzell> 9 games for doy (killer~~killer bee|big kobold): 8x a killer bee, 1x a killer bee zombie
17:12 <+greensnark> rax: ?
17:12 <+greensnark> I don't understand
17:12 <@rax> I would aruge that killer bee XP is too _low_ if anything.
17:12 <+doy> rax: we aren't planning on doing anything to killer bees
17:12 <+greensnark> We were talking about making bees not respawn with time in the Hive, not reducing xp
17:12 <+doy> or any monsters, really
17:13 <@rax> OK, maybe I misinterpreted. "bees give surprising amounts of xp" set off my nerf alarm like whoah.
17:13 <@rax> Bees not respawning in Hive is fine :) 
17:15 < scarf> perhaps after a while, it should fill with wasps instead
17:15 <+doy> wouldn't help anything
17:15 <+doy> mummies are inherently rpois
17:16 <+doy> and with rpois, wasps aren't any more dangerous than bees, really
17:16 < scarf> oh, you mean mummyscumming in hive
17:16 < scarf> I thought you meant anyone could do it
17:17 <+doy> put on an rpois ring
17:17 <+doy> done
17:17 <+doy> but really, scumming by anyone else is much much less of an issue
17:17 <+doy> scumming in this way specifically, anyway
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17:18 <+greensnark> I don't know of anyone who would bother farming the Hive, definitely
17:19 <+greensnark> Hey, these new tiles for snake runes are neat: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=491
17:19 <+doy> yeah
17:20 <+doy> should probably get a full set of rune tiles done
17:24 < CIA-81> by * rb6ed277a9e0f /crawl-ref/source/ (message.cc message.h): msgwin_prompt and msgwin_reply to allow generic saving of replies.
17:24 < CIA-81> by * r912746a56089 /crawl-ref/source/macro.cc: Use msgwin_prompt/reply when adding a macro.
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17:32 < purge> greensnark: thanks :D
17:57 <@dpeg> back
17:57 <@dpeg> for the record: I agree with the xp cap because it is such a simple formula and won't affect normal play
17:58 <@dpeg> I brought in no respawns, by the way :)
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18:08 < syllogism> xp cap also doesnt really affect mummy scumming, just the kind of scumming that causes server problems
18:08 < syllogism> you'll still get more than enough xp
18:08 <+doy> it'll just take longer
18:08 < syllogism> and that too
18:08 < syllogism> but even if you stop at a few hundred kills
18:10 < syllogism> 200 hydras = 242k xp
18:10 <+doy> bug reports like "hey, i've been collecting runes in pan for a while, why are pit fiends only giving me 600xp?" would be annoying too (although not sure exactly how likely that would be)
18:13 <+greensnark> Well, obviously the reduced xp will need to be communicated 
18:13 < Twinge_> I still say the cap would encourage MORE scumming, not less.  
18:13 <+greensnark> Nobody is arguing for it to be hidden
18:13 <+greensnark> The cap should just movet o zero quickly
18:14 <+greensnark> Or we just eliminate respawns
18:14 <+doy> i like decreasing respawns better than just stepping down xp
18:15 <+greensnark> Either model works for me
18:15 <+greensnark> But if the stepdown just means diminishing returns players will still farm
18:15 <+greensnark> So the stepdown has to go to zero returns at some point :P
18:15 <@dpeg> yes
18:16 <+doy> sure, just use a stretched out version of the vestibule code
18:16 <+greensnark> purge: Hot snaky rune <3
18:16 <+greensnark> Vestibule code could be used as is
18:16 <+greensnark> It ramps down monster gen pretty quickly
18:16 <@dpeg> Here are the possible solutions: (1) Only significant respawns (I hope that's in--should use "generic" OODs for all branches) for a while, after that no respawns at all; (2) no xp for respawns. I like (1) better.
18:17 <+greensnark> But we'd have to decide what levels should retain respawns
18:17 <+doy> greensnark: hells, pan, and zot
18:17 <@dpeg> yes
18:17 < syllogism> and hopefully abyss :P
18:17 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yeah, we need nice OODs :)
18:18 <+doy> dpeg: for the "generic" oods, i was thinking something similar to how monsters can take stairways, which gives you monsters from other branches
18:18 <+doy> just assume that given enough time, monsters could take multiple stairways
18:18 <+greensnark> Can we get a better name for the generic "merfolk" monster
18:18 <@dpeg> doy: yes, simply assume that time was long enough that anybody interested could be in Lair (say) meanwhile
18:18 <+doy> right
18:18 <+greensnark> "merfolk" sounds odd to me
18:18 <@dpeg> greensnark: merdud
18:18 <+greensnark> dpeg: <3
18:18 <+greensnark> Although apparently syllogism had troubel with the duds throwing javelins :P
18:19 <@dpeg> So what do you think? Timing out of respawns or 0 xp?
18:19 <+doy> i like timing out of respawns better
18:19 <+greensnark> Ramping down respawns sounds better
18:19 < Twinge_> 0exp for respawns seems kind of awful, and definitely would affect normal games somewhat
18:19 <+doy> how fast does the vestibule ramp down?
18:19 <+greensnark> Twinge_: Well, it's on a ramp down, not every respawn = 0
18:19 < syllogism> dpeg: as I mentioned earlier, ramping down respawns also makes farming good god piety slightly harder
18:20 < syllogism> slightly because you can still farm every level until monsters stop spawning :P
18:20 < syllogism> depending on how long it takes
18:20 <+doy> yeah, i think the ramp down should be long enough that that's still possible to some extent
18:20 <+doy> although it should definitely put a cap on that too
18:21 <+doy> i think that's okay
18:21 <+doy> i mean... in most games, people don't hang around levels long enough to see hardly any respawns anyway
18:21 <+greensnark> Vestibule ramp starts at 500 turns
18:21 <+doy> unless they're farming
18:21 < syllogism> it should probably be several thousands of turns
18:21 <@dpeg> syllogism: good god piety will be changed anyway
18:21 <+doy> yeah, i'd say 2000 at least
18:22 <+greensnark> Why?
18:22 < syllogism> so it won't affect normal games?
18:22 <+greensnark> Are you referring to the zero point or the point at which respawns decline?
18:22 <@dpeg> greensnark: piety scumming comes up in actual games, that's not good
18:22 < syllogism> you can easily take 2k turns per level
18:22 <+doy> greensnark: it shouldn't be noticable by people just clearing out a level normally
18:22 <+greensnark> Ok, are we talking about the start of the ramp down
18:22 < syllogism> one pillar dance can take 500 turns :P
18:23 <@dpeg> is the counter reset if you leave the level?
18:23 <+greensnark> Or the end of the ramp down?
18:23 <+doy> greensnark: start
18:23 < syllogism> greensnark: vestibule seems to go off the cliff
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18:23 < syllogism> but I havent really looked at the code or tested it much
18:23 <+doy> it's okay for vestibule, because you never spend any significant amount of time in vestibule
18:23 < syllogism> yes
18:23 <+doy> but dungeon levels can take a lot longer
18:23 <@dpeg> is duration/level stored for the whole game?
18:24 < syllogism> yes
18:24 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yes
18:24 <+doy> yes
18:24 <+greensnark> env.turns_on_level
18:24 <@dpeg> I don't see what's wrong with adding OODs to the level mix after a while
18:24 <+doy> dpeg: that should definitely go in too
18:24 < syllogism> nothing
18:24 <+greensnark> 2k to begin ramp down works well
18:24 <@dpeg> ok
18:24 <+greensnark> I think OOD increase is in already
18:24 <@dpeg> and when do we end it?
18:24 <+greensnark> 15k turns?
18:24 <@dpeg> ok
18:25 <+doy> sounds good
18:25 <+greensnark> Apparently Vestibule doesn't completely kill monster gen
18:25 <@dpeg> in this phase, every monster can spawn everywhere?
18:25 < syllogism> greensnark: weird
18:25 <+greensnark> It just declines to 5 in 20000
18:25 <+doy> dpeg: for oods, possibly
18:25 <@dpeg> doy: yes, only OODs
18:25 <@dpeg> I want drac packs in Lair etc.
18:25 <+doy> should probably be weighted toward the current branch somewhat
18:25 <@dpeg> yes
18:26 <+doy> but yeah, should have a decent chance of pulling from other branches
18:26 < syllogism> wait you really want drac pacs in lair? :P
18:26 <+greensnark> I'm not entirely keen on monsters spilling over between branches
18:26 <+greensnark> I really like that some monsters only appear in some branches
18:27 <+doy> i don't think that monsters should spill over from pan/hell/zot, probably
18:27 <+greensnark> I wouldn't want aquamancers in Lair :P
18:27 <+doy> but from other places, i don't see too much of an issue
18:27 <+greensnark> Yeah, this is one of those subjective things :)
18:27 <+doy> greensnark: if you've been hanging around a single lair level for 10k turns, you deserve aquamancers d:
18:27 <@dpeg> well, I think that some monsters work everywhere
18:27 < syllogism> krakens in hive fountains
18:27 <@dpeg> hehe
18:27 <+doy> heh
18:27 <+greensnark> <3
18:28 <+greensnark> Pity krakens are so useless :P
18:28 <+greensnark> I should up their tentacle damage
18:28 <+doy> does all damage done to tentacles still apply to the kraken itself?
18:28 <+greensnark> Whoever convinced me to keep it so low was wrong :P
18:28 <+greensnark> Yes
18:28 <+doy> that should be capped at the maxhp of the tentacle, i think
18:28 < syllogism> @?? tentacle
18:28 < Gretell> tentacle (w) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 36-60 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 29 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(immune), asphyx | XP: 0.
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18:29 <+greensnark> I think krakens are rare enough that tentacles can be made more dangerous
18:29 <+greensnark> And they need that speed boost, whatever Ero says :)
18:29 <+doy> tentacles should get constricting
18:29 <+kilobyte> doy: if you get hp of a tentacle to 0, it does go away, so that caps the damage
18:29 <+greensnark> They're really just pathetic atm unless they catch you in water
18:30 <+doy> kilobyte: but if you hit a tentacle for 100 damage, does it apply 100 damage to the kraken?
18:30 <+doy> tentacles should also get faster attack speed, probably
18:30 <+doy> and maybe higher ev
18:30 <+greensnark> I'd like faster movement speed also
18:30 <+greensnark> After all, they're appendages
18:30 <+doy> i think the damage is fairly okay
18:30 <+greensnark> And appendages can move fast!
18:30 <+doy> should buff them in other ways
18:31 <@dpeg> Would someone do the respawn changes we discussed?
18:31 <+kilobyte> before you even consider that, we should make krakens killable without having to stand there and poke them with a spell/polearm for a decade
18:32 <+greensnark> Kraken submerge definitely needs fixing
18:32 <+kilobyte> because otherwise buffing them is pointless
18:32 <@dpeg> all submerging needs fixing
18:32 <@dpeg> I will do a proposal later today
18:32 <+greensnark> Respawn change summary: a) start ramp down at 5k turns on level, decline to zero by 20k turns on level
18:33 <@dpeg> kilobyte: if we time out respawn rates, we can remove the xp cap again, okay?
18:33 <+greensnark> b) start OOD ramp up at 5k turns on level, OOD chance maxes out at 20k turns on level, with OODs only being placed in normal monster gen, i.e. OODS stop when monsters stop?
18:33 <+greensnark> c) Allow OODs to draw from other branch populations
18:33 <+kilobyte> we can, but having the cap is worth it by itself
18:33 <+greensnark> Is that correct
18:33 <+doy> greensnark: yes
18:34 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, only last time it was 2k to start :)
18:34 <+greensnark> Er, yes, 2k turns
18:34 <@dpeg> kilobyte: true, is worth it
18:34 <+greensnark> And 2k+15k = 17k turns to end
18:34 <+doy> the difference between 2k and 5k isn't really important
18:34 <+greensnark> Should I wiki it?
18:34 <@dpeg> simply coding is enough =)
18:34 <+greensnark> I can also do it now, but I think it's important to record somewhere for people to know
18:34 <+kilobyte> we _already_ have a ramp
18:34 <@dpeg> kilobyte: but does it ever stop?
18:34 <+kilobyte> it's pathethic, but it's there
18:34 <+doy> yeah, apparently we just went ahead and coded the reduced xp stuff last night, so... go for it
18:35 <+greensnark> Right, I think kilobyte did the OOD ramp
18:35 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes, but there's new bits now!
18:35 <+doy> why were oods nerfed so hard in the first place?
18:35 <+kilobyte> uhm no, it was there, I merely increased the odds somewhat
18:35 <+greensnark> I don't know if the OOD change ever worked for respawns
18:35 <@dpeg> well, there is another thing that I insisted upon: I don't want meaningless respawns, at any time
18:36 <+kilobyte> before my changes, the odds of a big OOD were 1:5000, now they are 1:1000
18:36 <+doy> dpeg: 'meaningless respawns'?
18:36 <+kilobyte> and 1 in 1000 monsters means nothing
18:36 <+greensnark> We nerfed it in 0.1 because it was a common complaint
18:36 <@dpeg> rats, orc bands, you name it
18:36 <+doy> greensnark: but the nerf was really really hard
18:36 <@dpeg> greensnark: never listen to your players
18:36 <+greensnark> kilobyte: Yes, we'll hve to change that
18:36 <+doy> and wasn't it nerfed again in 0.2 or so?
18:37 <+greensnark> Well, lots of stuff in 0.1 wasn't throught through sufficiently or tested
18:37 <+doy> i remember still getting decent oods in 0.1
18:37 <+greensnark> I think this was just not tested
18:37 <@dpeg> as far as I understood, kilobyte just made none-OOD spawns impossible -- which is good
18:37 <+greensnark> dpeg: No, he just increased OOD numbers
18:37 <+greensnark> super OODs are still very rre
18:37 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, but that is a different fact than "no more trivial spawns"
18:37 <+greensnark> And they're not very super anyway :)
18:38 <+doy> dpeg: could just adjust (or add if it doesn't exist) the cap on how far outside of their native depth monsters are allowed to spawn
18:38 <@dpeg> doy: don't understand?
18:38 <@dpeg> ah, for normal spawning?
18:38 <@dpeg> yes
18:39 <+greensnark> Ok, I'm using 3k and 18k turns as more Crawly numbers :P
18:39 <@dpeg> pfff
18:39 <+doy> (:
18:39  * greensnark beats dpeg with the Crawl Prime
18:39 <@dpeg> number fetichists :)
18:40 <@dpeg> spawns can also be bands, right?
18:40 <+greensnark> Says the mathematician, pot calling the kettle black :P
18:41 <+greensnark> Maybe we should allow foreign OODs only from directly connected branches?
18:41 <+kilobyte> greensnark: you may want to revert the spawn rate change if you do that
18:41 <+greensnark> So you'll get only dungeon spawn in Hive
18:42 <+kilobyte> definitely
18:42 <+greensnark> But Lair can get spawns from dungeon and all the Lair branches
18:42 <+greensnark> Elf would suck though :P
18:42 <+greensnark> Or main dungeon + connected dungeons
18:46 <+kilobyte> well, after a bit of thinking, I don't see foreign spawns giving us anything, and they can bring theme problems and make branches less unique
18:46 <+kilobyte> they would be good if we kept infinite generation
18:46 <+kilobyte> since they protect against being safe while scumming
18:46 <+doy> hmmm, true
18:47 <+doy> i like the idea, but if we're also ramping down spawn rate, it probably doesn't have to be so extreme
18:47 <+doy> the chance for it could be smaller, anyway
18:47  * greensnark is also not a major fan of foreign spawns because it reduces the uniqueness of the branches
18:47 <@dpeg> greensnark: dungeon is good
18:48 <@dpeg> but why not allow Zot? :)
18:48 <@dpeg> Zot monsters look nice everywhere
18:48 <+doy> dpeg: because zot is locked until you insert the runes
18:48  * greensnark takes the uniqueness of branches amendment :P
18:48 <+greensnark> Can we make that Crawl's fifth amendment :P
18:48 <@dpeg> the right to bear nuns ?
18:48 <+greensnark> Er
18:49 <+greensnark> I thought that was the right to keep and arm bears
18:49 <@elly> the right to add turtles
18:49 <@dpeg> free beer & nuns!
18:49 <+greensnark> I mean, keep and bear arms
18:49 <@dpeg> elly: 2 turtles + 3 turtles = ?
18:49 <@dpeg> okay, gotta catch a train
18:49 <+greensnark> http://armedbear.org/abcl.html
18:50 <+greensnark> "The right of the people to keep and arm bears shall not be infringed!" <3
18:50 <@dpeg> you'll do the spawns, I will come up with a submerger submission
18:50 <+greensnark> Ciao
18:50 <@dpeg> greensnark: don't listen to the whiners, we're missing heavy OODs for so long!
18:51 <+greensnark> Say hi to your D:1 titan overlords
18:51 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit ["nerf now, nerf here"]
18:51 < syllogism> well lair already has some nastyish OODs, they just never spawn
18:51 < syllogism> some other branches might need help though
18:51 <@elly> I for one welcome our D:1 titan overlords, greensnark
18:52  * kilobyte waits for the number of spriggan and centaur players to skyrocket.
18:52 <+kilobyte> Nagas will be fucked, though.
18:52 <+greensnark> Well, this is only if they hang around D:1 forever
18:52 <+greensnark> Or D:x forever
18:52 < syllogism> normal OODs should be more common too
18:53 < syllogism> spawned OODs
18:53 <+greensnark> Respawned or start-of-evel OODs
18:53 < Mu_> plenty of OODs from vaults tbh
18:53 < syllogism> possibly both, we would need some stats
18:54 <+doy> looking through one of my 15-runer games, i have over 100 kills on orange demons, neqoxecs, most 5s, giant bats, yaktaurs, slime creatures, killer bees, guardian mummies, orcs, green and grey rats, ugly things, small abominations, and skeletal warriors
18:54 <+doy> and this is without any more farming than necessary to get all the runes
18:54 < syllogism> how often do you see lair wasps or wolf spiders
18:54 <+greensnark> That may be more down to their rarity
18:54 <+doy> syllogism: or lindwurms
18:54 < syllogism> it is
18:54 < syllogism> lindwurms arent thaaat rare :P
18:55 < syllogism> or maybe I'm just lucky
18:55 <+greensnark> Swamp tentcled monstrosities :)
18:55 <+doy> basically every lindwurm i see is a shapeshifter
18:55 <+doy> not sure how many actual ones i've seen, but it's very few
18:55 < syllogism> !lg * place=Lair killer=~lindwurm
18:56 < Henzell> 44. crawlie the Spear-Bearer (L12 MfCK), worshipper of Makhleb, blasted by a lindwurm (blast of flame) on Lair:7 on 2010-01-08, with 19079 points after 16974 turns and 1:24:03.
18:56 <+doy> huh
18:56 < syllogism> lindwurms seem to be about as rare as elephant slugs?
18:56 <+doy> lindwurms are 10, elephant slugs are 30
18:57 <+doy> other things at 10: giant beetle, scorpion, oklob, steam dragon, orange rat
18:57 <+doy> although this is affected by native depth too
18:57 < syllogism> what's the difference between mons_lair_level and mons_lair_rare
18:57 <+greensnark> _level defines their native depth
18:58 < syllogism> ah
18:58 < syllogism> I see it now :P
18:58 <+doy> in any case, we could probably stand to tone down the frequency of most of those monsters i listed above
18:59 <+doy> and bump up some others to compensate
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18:59 <+kilobyte> well, the frequency numbers are relative
18:59 <+kilobyte> when you bump something down, everything else goes down
18:59 <+kilobyte> up
18:59 <+doy> well, sure
19:00 < syllogism> some of the rarities are pretty bizarre
19:00 < syllogism> like large abominations are rarer in crypt than ancient liches
19:00 < syllogism> or regular liches
19:00 < syllogism> or maybe I can't interrept this right :P
19:00 < syllogism> interpret
19:00 <+greensnark> syllogism: You can use ./crawl -script place-pop Crypt:1 Crypt:5 to get actual monster distrib at level gen
19:01 <+doy> http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/crawl_ss_branches.html
19:01 <+greensnark> It will generate a monster-report.out
19:01 <+greensnark> It helps a lot when twiddling the knobs
19:01 <+kilobyte> well, abominations are mostly demonic, and crypt is supposed to be undead
19:01 < syllogism> they are corpses
19:01 <+greensnark> Although it works best for branches where monster native depths are not based on absolute depths
19:02 <+doy> greensnark: is there a reason we can't just make all depths relative to the current branch?
19:02 <+greensnark> I think most are
19:02 <+doy> absolute depth in general is a weird concept
19:02 <+doy> considering the amount of variance we have in branch entrance depths
19:03 <+greensnark> Only unique placement is the floater
19:03 <+doy> ah, okay
19:03 <+greensnark> So if you run place-pop script, the unique stats will be different in branches with variable depths
19:03 <+greensnark> I think there are one or two branches that use absolute depth, can't recall
19:03 <+doy> converting everything to use relative depth might be saner overall
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19:18 < Ashenzari> Misplaced message while butchering (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=492) by Nobody
19:21 < Napkin> hey rax?
19:22 < Napkin> rax: I'd like to catch you and setup rsync one of these days - pretty please :))
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20:04 < Napkin> !send greensnark hot coffee!
20:04 < Henzell> Sending hot coffee! to greensnark.
20:05 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-171-58.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:08 < Napkin> !send greensnark a big pot of hot & fresh coffee
20:08 < Henzell> Sending a big pot of hot & fresh coffee to greensnark.
20:12 < Napkin> kilobyte? you don't mind me running learndb-html.pl on CDO too - do you?
20:17 <+kilobyte> Napkin: I don't have a version with all the recent changes.
20:17 <+kilobyte> Napkin: so you'd have to talk to someone with access to CAO
20:17 < Napkin> i just pulled it from cao
20:17 <+kilobyte> Napkin: so... what do you need me for?
20:17 < Napkin> asking for your permission, kilobyte 
20:18  * kilobyte is not Microsoft.  No WGA attached :p
20:18 < Napkin> the usual etiquette :)
20:18 < Napkin> great, thanks :)
20:19 < Cryp71c> Napkin, we get learndb on grettel?
20:20 < Napkin> no, no need
20:20 < Napkin> henzell is doing a superb job with serving it :)
20:20 < Cryp71c> oh ok, lol :) Yeah there's not much purpose but I wasn't sure what that particular file was used for
20:20 < Napkin> but, I will use the data for the website :)
20:20 < Napkin> should speed it up quite a lot :)
20:22 < Napkin> in case you didn't know (and to make it more public, of course) - this website: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?page_id=214
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20:22 < Napkin> ;)
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20:28 -!- SIberAsleep [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Whoa! Partial hit!"]
20:34 < Cryp71c> I had used that on occasion :) Its useful when i can't join irc
20:34 < Cryp71c> Napkin, is the @?? data on that page from @? or @?? ?
20:35 < Napkin> from @??, Cryp71c 
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21:38 < Ashenzari> wucadmu temple black stone walls tile (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=493) by Porkchop
21:38 -!- Eronarn_ is now known as Eronarn
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21:58 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r779740b333a3 /crawl-ref/source/ (delay.cc mon-stuff.cc monster.cc): Turn autopickup back on when killing backlit invisible monsters.
22:06 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["."]
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22:14 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r8226ea335dee /crawl-ref/source/delay.cc: Add a missing break in the delay starting message switch conditional.
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22:29 < Ashenzari> message window can't handle long strings and crashes (8226ea33) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=494) by jpeg
22:35 < CIA-81> by * r18a740f01d11 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Fix last column in message window not being cleared properly.
22:38 < CIA-81> greensnark * r141c1e7bbfe7 /crawl-ref/source/ (10 files in 3 dirs): Monster respawn rate reduces after 3k turns on level, respawning ends after 15k turns on level, monster level fuzz and super OOD rates increase with time spent beyond 3k turns on level.
22:38 < CIA-81> greensnark * r95a44477da7d /crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc: Decrease rarity of tentacled monstrosities in Swamp (they're still quite rare).
22:39 < Ashenzari> tiles: long notes blank intermediate lines (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=495) by rob
22:42 < CIA-81> greensnark * r104b10d63fb5 /crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Discard unused function.
22:45 < Napkin> kilobyte, still here?
22:52 < syllogism> decrease rarity?
22:52 < TGWi> make common
22:52 < syllogism> oh right
22:52 < syllogism> duh
22:52 < TGWi> what were you thinking it was
22:53 < syllogism> I couldn't reconcile decrease and make more common
22:54 < Ashenzari> Amulet of stasis doesn't prevent giant eyeball paralysis (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=496) by valrus
22:55 <+doy> why would stasis prevent paralysis
22:55 < syllogism> the description says it does
22:55 <+doy> that doesn't make any sense
22:55 < syllogism> it preserves your current condition
22:56 <+doy> what better way to preserve it than by not letting you move
22:57 < Zannick> what about the fact that you *can* move?
22:57 <+doy> what?
22:57 < Zannick> is that not part of your condition? should it not preserve that?
22:57 < Zannick> (note i've never used the amulet of stasis)
22:58 < Kyrris> Regardless of should or shouldn't, it says it -does-.
22:59 < Ashenzari> Amulet of Guardian Spirit doesn't stop poison damage as description implies it should (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=497) by valrus
22:59 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r24a88db19858 /crawl-ref/source/tutorial.cc: Respect key bindings in a great number of tutorial messages.
22:59 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r3a0fe26ceaa1 /crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 4 dirs): Add Porkchop's holy scourge tiles.
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23:14 < Ashenzari> wucadmu temple autumn trees tiles (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=498) by Porkchop
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23:21 < syllogism> hmm X is crashing the game 
23:23 <+greensnark> syllogism: Every time, or do you have to do something unusual
23:23 < syllogism> I was testing the new monster spawns, I didn't make clean though
23:24 < syllogism> but yes, every time
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23:27 < syllogism> that "random monster gen scaled off" message is kind of spammy but I guess it doesn't matter :P
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23:30 <+doy> greensnark: what's the connection check for orc supposed to do, exactly?
23:30 <+doy> is orc:4 always supposed to be connected?
23:31 < syllogism> the worst I saw on d1 was an ice beast
23:31 <+greensnark> doy: No idea?
23:31 <+greensnark> I think the intent at some point was that Orc:4 should be fully connected
23:31 <+greensnark> But I don't know if that was implemented or even agreed upon
23:31 <+doy> ah, thought you might have been the one that coded it
23:31 <+greensnark> Enne added some connectivity code, I'm not very familiar with it
23:32 <+doy> yeah, i'm pretty sure some connectivity checks were added
23:32 < syllogism> I made clean and X works fine
23:32 < syllogism> err
23:32 <+doy> but i don't know what they were
23:32 < syllogism> I take it back :P
23:32 <+greensnark> syllogism: That's only for debug builds, but yeah, I should toss it
23:32 < syllogism> yes obviously it is
23:33 <+greensnark> doy: There are also some branches that disable connectivity checks altogether
23:34 <+greensnark> Ah yes, if the branch has BFLAG_ISLANDED, the dungeon builder won't check for stair connectedness
23:34 <+doy> there are connectivity checks other than the one for orc?
23:34 <+greensnark> Every branch that doesn't disallow it gets it
23:35 <+greensnark> The Tomb used to get it too
23:35 <+doy> swamp, shoals, tomb, and hells, looks like
23:35 < syllogism> according to &", 8 monsters spawned in 12k turns on d4
23:35 <+greensnark> And the builder would helpfully fix the stairs on Tomb:1 and Tomb:2 so you could walk straight down :)
23:36 < syllogism> and none of them ood really
23:36 <+doy> heh
23:36 <+greensnark> syllogism: Default spawn rate is rather low
23:36 <+doy> the builder can adjust vaults?
23:36 < syllogism> yes
23:36 <+greensnark> 5/480 chance of spawn every 5 turns
23:36 <+greensnark> And then that's further reduced
23:36 -!- Kyrris [n=1@c-67-186-34-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit []
23:36 <+by> I'm aware of two kinds of connectivity checks: 1. no parts of a level not connected to a staircase 2. interlevel connectivity (_fixup_interlevel_connectivity)
23:37 < syllogism> a stone giant skeleton though
23:37 <+greensnark> What was the old spawn rate for monsters?
23:37 < syllogism> how old
23:37  * greensnark looks at 0.1.
23:38 <+greensnark> Aiee, 0.1 is like an alien city now :P
23:40 <+greensnark> If I'm reading this right, 0.1 had a 1/240 chance of placing a monster every turn
23:40 <+greensnark> And master has a 5/480 chance of placing a monster every 5th turn
23:41 <+greensnark> That is we've reduced the spawn rate by 50%
23:41 <+greensnark> Was this intentional?
23:42 <+greensnark> Or am I misreading something 
23:42 < syllogism> I doubt it was intentional, if that's the case
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23:46 < CIA-81> by * rb18974f645ba /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Redraw message window before printing --more-- prompt.
23:46 < CIA-81> by * r25bf26adf318 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Scroll message window one-line-at-a-time when adding messages.
23:47 <+greensnark> acr.cc was a real monster in 0.1 :P
23:48 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-155-37.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
23:49 <+greensnark> Oh, the 480 was for the mummy fix
23:49 <+greensnark> Let me change that back to 240.
23:50 <+sorear> greensnark: the first version after jpeg made spawns depend on absolute time, we had a version of Crawl with 95% less spawns
23:50 <+sorear> it was much better
23:50 <+greensnark> :)
23:50 <+sorear> b/c she moved it into the slow loop without adjusting odds
23:52 < CIA-81> greensnark * r125ae6e64ba7 /crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc mon-place.cc): Restore respawn rate to 1/240 per standard turn, subject to scaling for time spent on the level.
23:54 < Ashenzari> Ranged Combat for 0.6 (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=41) by dpeg
23:55 <+doy> maybe i should go back and fill in the older tickets
23:58 < Cryp71c> Are blink / teleport being removed as mutations alltogether, or simply removed from DS - possible muts?
23:58 <+doy> removed altogether