00:02 < cbus> @? storm dragon
00:02 < Gretell> storm dragon (D) | Speed: 12 | HD: 14 | Health: 70-140 | AC/EV: 13/10 | Damage: 25, 15, 15 | Flags: fly | Res: magic(93), cold, elec+++ | XP: 3006 | Sp: b.lightning.
00:02 < cbus> did the speed get buffed?
00:04 <@dpeg> Zannick: <3
00:04 < Zannick> :D
00:05 <+by> I'm getting a weird tiles crash with clear_messages=true
00:05 <+by> segmentation fault in cprintf
00:05 <+by> which has a constant string as its only argument
00:06 <+by> cprintf("--more--") -- no patterns in there either that I can see
00:08 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r4d8ea11091bf /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/unique/menkaure.png: Clean up Menkaure's tile a bit.
00:08 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r797faf6b9c37 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/unique/purgy.png: Tidy up Purgy's tile.
00:08 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rada73be6b5dd /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/unique/roxanne.png: Clean up Roxanne's tile.
00:08 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rab88305b6750 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/unique/roxanne.png: Tweak Roxanne's tile some more.
00:09 -!- Netsplit calvino.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: +Keskitalo, Adeon, doy, bhaak, @dpeg, Iainuki, felirx, dis_astranagant
00:10 < Timbermaw> ops?
00:10 < Timbermaw> something wrecked somewhere..
00:11 <@elly> what?
00:11 <@elly> no, it was just a netsplit
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00:12 < Timbermaw> ah i see
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00:19 < Kyrris> Are there any plans to make summons stop attacking harmless plants with rabid fury, while death yaks mob you?
00:19 <@dpeg> Kyrris: "any plans" makes it sound as if we had a masterplan until 2080
00:19 < Kyrris> You don't?
00:20 < Kyrris> My world!  It crumbles.
00:20 < AceTetra> Kyrris: that behavior is amusing. maybe write a patch?
00:20 < Kyrris> Perhaps if I had written any c++ in the past eight years.
00:20 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-166-164.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:20 <+by> you could also file an issue
00:20 < Kyrris> The behavior isn't much of a problem, but it means there's really no combining summons and stealth in some branches.
00:21 < Kyrris> I could.  But I thought I'd see if it was intended behavior, first.
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00:21 < kilobyte> it's especially annoying when a friendly balrug nukes you with a fireball trying to hit a toadstool behind you
00:21 <+due> hii
00:21 < AceTetra> no, i don't think anyone intended for your summoned horrible thing to spend all its time slapping a plant
00:21 < Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
00:21 <+due> !message
00:21 <+due> !messages
00:21 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (1h 17m 5s ago): My Snake:1 has: Aizul, Kirke, Erica, Sonja, Eustachio, Azrael, Nergalle, Harold. Bug?
00:22 <+due> O_O
00:22 < AceTetra> funny, but not intended
00:22 <+due> dpeg: I'm not sure it's a bug, just very rare?
00:22 < kilobyte> yes, a bug, Xtahua's missing
00:22 < Zannick> wow, that's some snake:1
00:22 <+due> !send dpeg Xtahua
00:22 < Henzell> Sending Xtahua to dpeg.
00:23 <+due> Fixed.
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00:23 < AceTetra> i have noticed a unique gathering effect too actually
00:23 < CIA-81> by * r48d6890187b5 /crawl-ref/source/output.cc: Redo hud quiver display formatting.
00:23 < Zannick> that level would be pretty hilarious if my Gregor unique were in there, too
00:23 < AceTetra> i'll get everything cleaned up, and the next new level i visit has at least a dozen @s with names
00:23 <+due> greensnark: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=476
00:23 < Zannick> too bad that patch went into limbo
00:24 <+by> hi due
00:24 <+due> I have no idea why uiques are clumping, then.
00:24  * due eyes dpeg.
00:24 < AceTetra> due: i think it has to do with new level generation
00:24 < Kyrris> Random distributions tend to show clumping.
00:24 < AceTetra> it's like uniques wait in a queue or something
00:25 <+due> Kyrris: I think that might be it, to be honest?
00:25 < Kyrris> It means our pseudorandom generator is good!
00:25 < Zannick> or biased sampling
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00:26 < Zannick> you haven't taken note of all the games where clumping *hasn't* occurred, have you?
00:26 <+due> Zannick: Nobody ever does.
00:26 < Zannick> exactly.
00:26 <+due> Zannick: They only see the clumps and go "wtf clump" and report it.
00:26 <+by> Napkin: the quiver bug should be fixed
00:26 < Napkin> \o/
00:26 < Napkin> thanks :)
00:26 <+due> Need to tweak Darshan's script to generate unique generation statistics and run it through the dungeon a few thousand times.
00:26 < Napkin> Hey rax :)
00:26 <+due> Hi, rax!
00:26 <+by> also, messagewindow is merged -- update so the complaints can roll in overnight?
00:27 <+due> Ooh, nice.
00:27 <+due> Update CDO?
00:27 < Napkin> agreed @ the clumping, btw
00:27 < Napkin> Moin due!
00:27 <+due> Napkin: I'm going to run some generation statistics.
00:27 < Napkin> let rob decide :)
00:27  * dpeg stares at due.
00:27  * due is paralysed by the giant orb of dpeg.
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00:28 <+due> @whereis Jambato
00:28 < Gretell> Jambato the Ruffian (L1 TrBe), a worshipper of Trog, saved on D:1 on 2010-01-10 after 291 turns.
00:28 <+due> Oh, I forgot to kill that one.
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00:28 < AceTetra> due: ok, i would usually think it's just statistics, but it seems to me like uniques gather on newly generated levels
00:28 <+due> AceTetra: They would, yes.
00:28 < AceTetra> i just wish i could quantify this somehow :/
00:29 <+due> Uniques are only ever placed on newly generated levels.
00:29 < AceTetra> oh, ok! exploitable?
00:29 <+due> No?
00:29 < Napkin> lol
00:29 <+due> Uniques have only ever been placed on newly generated levels.
00:29 < Kyrris> How?
00:29 <+due> by: Should I updateCDO, then?
00:30 < AceTetra> Kyrris: i dunno, that's just the first thing i always ask
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00:31 < Napkin> he might have "hey rob?" in his hilight list ;>
00:31 <+due> hey rob!
00:32 < Napkin> btw.. omg! I survived Vault8!
00:32 < Napkin> <3 OOD!
00:32  * due sstars CDO update anyway
00:33 <+due> It'll have to recompile everything so.
00:33 < Napkin> good decision :)
00:33 < Napkin> And I'll head off - G'night!
00:34 <+by> due: yes please!
00:34 <+due> Night Napking!
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00:39 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2482-g48d6890 (16.1)!
00:39 -!- TGW is now known as TGWi
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00:41 <+by> due: thanks!
00:41 <+due> :)
00:43 < TGWi> why do you guys keep trying to trick me into playing with delay_message_clear?
00:43 < AceTetra> TGWi: oh just edit your rcfile
00:43 < TGWi> defaulting it, then renaming the option
00:44 <+by> could you file this in the "Complaints" section of the cdo issue tracker, please?
00:44 < AceTetra> wait, the option was renamed? explicitly setting the old option name worked for me :/
00:44 < TGWi> acetetra: just now
00:45 < AceTetra> well, i did it a week ago, so i dunno
00:47 <+due> We have a "complaints" section? :)
00:47 < TGWi> by the way, someone broke ^p
00:49 < TGWi> (it starts at the top now)
00:49 <+by> known issue, it's just not completely reimplemented yet
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00:55 < Ashenzari> Ctrl-x screen could be exact about charmed monsters (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=477) by Kyrris
00:59 <+due> !tell Keskitalo Love the new Donald tile. :D
00:59 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let Keskitalo know.
00:59 < kilobyte> by: any key will clear --more-- now
01:00 < kilobyte> by: and that nukes its usability as a safety feature
01:00 <+by> that used to be just space?
01:00 < AceTetra> kilobyte: uh-oh. i always used force more to absorb bad keystrokes :/
01:00 < TGWi> oh my god what
01:01 < Kyrris> Space, enter, or escape.
01:02 < AceTetra> i have a great big section of my rcfile that depends on force more dumping keystrokes that aren't space, enter, or esc
01:04 < cbus> dpeg, no 12k tonight
01:04 < Kyrris> I am so not transfering to the new version.  Yee.
01:05 <+due> Welcome to playing the developmental version of crawl.
01:05 <+by> could the guys that don't read c-r-d or commit messages please takek the whining to ##crawl?
01:06 <+due> Oooh!
01:06 <+due> Thanks, PigVomit!
01:07 <+due> omg it's awesome.
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01:10 <@dpeg> by: you can kick!
01:10 < cbus> dpeg, 12k
01:10 <@dpeg> cbus: you are?
01:11 <@dpeg> still?
01:11 < cbus> dpeg, was 14k last time :)
01:11 < cbus> dpeg, nice bug, I'm 13k in all nick lists, but when I type im 12k
01:11 <+due> That's confusing.
01:12 < cbus> it updated :)
01:19 < CIA-81> by * rfe19693b8102 /crawl-ref/source/ (message.cc message.h): Make (some) more prompts respond to the same keys as they used to.
01:20 <+due> by: Do you want me to update again to stem the screaming masses?
01:20 <+by> please :)
01:20  * due will do it quickly, but leaving shortly.
01:22 <+by> don't worry, I can deal with the screaming masses
01:22 <@dpeg> Why does Snorg follow me when I am invisible? :(
01:22 <+due> @??snorg
01:22 < Gretell> Snorg (T) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 96 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 20, 15, 15 | Res: magic(64) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1451.
01:22 < cbus> dpeg, you have a nice behind?
01:22 < cbus> :D
01:22 <+due> Because invis is rubbish.
01:22 <@dpeg> shit
01:22 <+by> that should really be fixed
01:22 <+due> I think it can be fixed now.
01:23 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2483-gfe19693 (16.1)
01:23 <@dpeg> He followed me for more than 12 steps.
01:23 <+by> thanks, due
01:23 <+due> Okay, 've got to run.
01:23 < cbus> dpeg, maybe you got clunky shoes
01:23 <@dpeg> bye
01:23 < cbus> :D
01:23 -!- cbus was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [dpeg]
01:23  * due snorts.
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01:24 <+due> Yeah, non-sense/see-invis monsters seem capable of following you even while invis.
01:24 < kilobyte> by: http://sprunge.us/KeUI
01:24 <@dpeg> due: I noted :)
01:24 < Kyrris> Just not targetting you well, right?
01:24 < cbus> dpeg, low stealth (clunky shoes) might make it possible to follow the sound?
01:24 <@dpeg> cbus: Kenku: no shoes
01:24 < cbus> ahh ok
01:24 < cbus> was guessing on heavy armour
01:24 < Kyrris> dpeg: Clacky talons.  :D
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01:24 <+due> ...
01:25  * due also leaves.
01:30 <+by> kilobyte: thanks, will check; currently examing tiles core (also thanks)
01:32 <+due> by: Oh, my method for doing tiles is to run gdb in a vterm and connect it to the tiles process.
01:33 <+due> by: Another method is  to run tiles with tile_full_screen=false, which also helps.
01:40 <+by> maybe it's a mac problem, but gdb crashes for me
01:50 < CIA-81> by * r36393951c77f /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: More proper linebreaking of tagged strings.
01:50 <+by> kilobyte: that should fix your assert, hopefully
01:57 <+by> hrm, this mac tiles coredump is useless...
01:58 <+by> (gdb) bt
01:58 <+by> #0  0x93cc434d in pthread_getspecific ()
01:58 <+by> #1  0x00000000 in ?? ()
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02:16 < CIA-81> by * r555315ddede9 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Fix long messages causing assert when placing cursor.
02:16 < CIA-81> by * r0a00b0301529 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Start message replay at end.
02:16 < CIA-81> by * r484ac2f6e41c /crawl-ref/source/ (menu.cc menu.h): Add menu flag to allow a menu to start at the end of its content.
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02:31 < rburnham> I really <3 the mutation series, btw. (rC+, etc. etc. and rF+ etc. etc.), especially when there are different options in a particular tree (protect items from cold and cold barbed armour)
02:32 < Timbermaw> ya, it's pretty cool. reminds of those dinosaur petting games :p
02:33 < Timbermaw> different evolution paths and stuff
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02:55 < Eronarn> Cryp71c_ / Timbermaw: We are looking for new mutation ideas.
02:55 < Eronarn> The current list is far too sparse
02:55 < Eronarn> These can be offshoots of existing mutations, too
02:56 < Cryp71c> Eronarn: is this being done on wiki, or just whever?
02:56 < Cryp71c> where*ever
02:56 < Kyrris> Yeah.  There should be a wiki page somewhere, right?
02:58 < Eronarn> yes. brainstorm:species:demonspawn iirc
02:58 < Timbermaw> i could think of some if i knew which ones already exist xP
03:00 < Eronarn> there is a list on the page
03:00 < Eronarn> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:demonspawn
03:02 < Timbermaw> kk will do
03:02 < Timbermaw> <3 long reads
03:06 < Zannick> is this open in general to suggestions?
03:11 <+due> Cryp71c: You can't just remove HT_AMPHIBIOUS_LAND, it'll do weird things. You have to replace with HT_LAND instead. :)
03:11 <+sorear> Zannick: Are they good suggestions?
03:11 <+due> Why does HT_AMPHIBIOUS_LAND get a speed bonus in water, anyway?
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03:12 <+due> I always thought there was M_AMPHIBIOUS for the speed boost, but apparently my mind is broken.
03:13 <+due> I'm assuming rob's latest commit was to fix ^p not starting at the end?
03:13 <+due> I might update CDO again if that's the case.
03:14 <+due> Eh, iit can wait.
03:14 < Cryp71c> due: lol that's my bad, I wasn't aware it was necessary
03:14 < Zannick> sorear: maybe?
03:14 <+due> Cryp71c: Yeah, habitat is one of the essential values.
03:14 < Zannick> i won't be the sole judge of that
03:14 < Zannick> my idea is a fear effect roar via shouting
03:14 <+due> Cryp71c: Basically, every value needs to exist. They're all just numbers, though, so if you leave one out, it'll just complain that it's missing the last one, then try and convert FL_NONE to a habitat, etc.
03:15 <+due> Or at least, I believe this is what it would do.
03:15 < Cryp71c> Are claws, horns and hooves the only body ranks?
03:15 <+due> Scales?
03:15 <+due> Cryp71c: Anyway, I'm thinking that a different solution might be needed for slime creatures. I'd like to make them able to use water, just not get a speed bonus.
03:15 <+due> M_SWIMMER or something.
03:15 < Zannick> scales don't prevent armor, iirc
03:16 < Cryp71c> due: no, they don't
03:16 < Zannick> "body rank" removes a slot
03:16 <+due> Ah.
03:16 < Cryp71c> yeah, prevents armour from that slot
03:16 <+due> I'm not up-to on the current demonspawn lingo.
03:21 < Eronarn> current slot removal: horns, claws
03:22 < Eronarn> proposed slot removal: hooves (probably going in), wings (cloak, might go in)
03:22 < Kyrris> I'd like to throw in really hard behind that proposed change to the scales.
03:22 < Kyrris> If only to be covered in pulsating blue eyeballs.
03:23 < Kyrris> Which should be lower AC, with SInv innate.
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03:48 < CIA-81> dolorous * r032b0667f410 /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc monster.cc): Comment fixes.
03:51 < Eronarn> Kyrris: the dynamic scales one, or the jiyva scales one
03:55 < Kyrris> Uh, yours.
03:55 < Kyrris> Which is not much different from Dpeg's, but more fleshed-out.
03:56 < Cryp71c> Eronarn: I like wings, but It could really kill heavy armour DS with deformed body 1
03:56 < Kyrris> Nah.  That would be -5AC in plate.
03:56 < Kyrris> That's definitely worth the flight.
03:57 < Cryp71c> -5AC can really make a difference mid game though
03:57 < Cryp71c> and are we talking about evoked flight, or natural flight?
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04:00 < Cryp71c> So are blink / tele flagged for removal in .6?
04:06 < doy> Cryp71c: yes
04:08 < Eronarn> i don't like the idea of flight giving deformed body
04:09 < Eronarn> deformed body is kind of stupid anyways
04:15 < Cryp71c> Yeah, a bit.
04:15 < Cryp71c> Be back later
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04:17 <+due> Was Enne here?
04:17 <+due> Ah, no.
04:18 < st_> Not sure if this is exclusive to Donald, but some of his speech is long enough to go onto two lines, and the second line is coloured differently than the first (white -> grey)
04:19 <+due> Bah, really?
04:19 <+due> It's not, it'll be anyway.
04:19 <+due> Er. Anything.
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04:25 <@elly> okay, good
04:25 <+due> :o
04:26 <+due> Elly is banned? That seems problematic.
04:26 < doy> so who are we autobanning?
04:26 <@elly> no
04:26 <@elly> I was just testing something
04:26  * due goes away again.
04:27 <+due> message.cc: In member function ‘void message_window::place_cursor() const’:
04:27 <+due> message.cc:202: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned integer expressions
04:27  * due now gone.
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04:53 < MarvinPA> how do i backup a CDO save, for a bug report?
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04:53 < doy> you ask someone with server access
04:54 < MarvinPA> aha ok
04:54 < MarvinPA> does someone here have server access? :P
04:54 < doy> napkin, due, greensnark, sorear are the ones i know
04:55 < Cryp71c> So for the DS muts, are +MP scheduled for removal as well as blink and tele muts?
04:56 < doy> Cryp71c: this is all covered on the wiki
04:56 < Ashenzari> ^p is broken (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=478) by Lemuel
04:56 < Cryp71c> doy: MP and HP are not detailed on the DS brainstorming wiki.
04:57 < doy> those aren't ds mutations, are they?
04:58 <+sorear> mp and hp are things all chars have
04:58 < Cryp71c> Yes  they are
04:58 < Cryp71c> +10% MP etc. etc.
04:58 < Kyrris> Robust and Energetic.
04:59 < Cryp71c> Kyrris: indeed, thanks..couldnt think of the names
04:59 < Kyrris> I think they ought to stay, but there ought also be facets that begin with each.
04:59 < Kyrris> Because the suspense is engaging.
04:59 < Kyrris> Similarly to the ice/fire facets.
05:00 < Cryp71c> I rather enjoy facets, but the MP is useless.
05:00 < doy> ah, suppose they are
05:01 < Cryp71c> 10% is what? 2-3 at the most (if its pre-bonuses) for a pure-caster?
05:01 < Cryp71c> that's worthless imo
05:01 < Kyrris> Hm, true.
05:02 < Kyrris> In theory, a facet can have more than three levels of mutation.
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05:06 < Cryp71c> Yeah, but I'm afraid that 4th levels in muts would result in fewer different facets
05:07 < Cryp71c> since obv it would consume a mut slot
05:09 < Cryp71c> I would like to see some of the very-close scale muts be removed and replaced with more interesting scale combos (+1 AC 30% Beam (lightning-type beams, not bolts) bounce, +2 AC 60% chance, +3 90% chance)
05:09 < Cryp71c> instead of 3 different +1 +2 +3 -_-
05:10 < doy> i think facets should stay at 3
05:12 < Cryp71c> Yeah I think so too
05:13 < Zannick> hm, the more i think about it, the more i think Roar shouldn't really be a DS-specific mutation
05:26 < Ashenzari> Something's cutting lines out of the message window, now, like wi/qu long names did. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=480) by Kyrris
05:26 < Ashenzari> New Mutation: Roar (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=479) by Zannick
05:29 <+due> ER
05:29 <+due> New mutations, etc, belong on the wiki.
05:29 < Zannick> whoops, sorry, wasn't sure where to put it
05:29 < Eronarn> my original proposal for facets was 4, but we've kept it at 3
05:29 < Eronarn> 3 is definitely doable
05:30 < Kyrris> Agreed.
05:30 < Eronarn> note, though, that there could also be a difference between facet levels and mutation levels
05:30 < Kyrris> I meant four levels of mutations in one facet.
05:30 < Eronarn> i.e.: facet 1 and 2 are one level of a mutation, facet 3 is three levels of it
05:30 < Kyrris> ...and said so.
05:30 < Kyrris> That just made what you were saying -less- clear to me.
05:31 < Kyrris> You talking tiers, now?
05:31 < Eronarn> er, yes, tiers
05:31 < Ashenzari> When setting macros, the trigger key is not being echoed (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=482) by Kyrris
05:31 < Ashenzari> Exiting the abyss into Shoals:5 caused tides to cease (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=481) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
05:38 < CIA-81> pointless_ * r618b19628f25 /crawl-ref/source/mon-abil.cc: Conserve current HP (not just max HP) when merging/splittings slimes
05:38 < CIA-81> pointless_ * rcface99c9ace /crawl-ref/source/mon-abil.cc: Use grid distance (not e. distance) to decide if slimes can split
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05:47 < dis_astranagant> hmm, I just had an interesting idea for either the start of a race or a new DS mutation: intellect devouring.  It would give an ability that reduces the target's intelligence a step if it has more than plant intelligence, confuses them, makes casters lose a random spell and grants some bonus to the user such as restoring some mp or a short !brilliance effect
05:47 <@elly> Mindflayer!
05:47 < doy> might be interesting for http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:lich
05:48 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v doy] by ChanServ
05:49 < dis_astranagant> if mp gain is the main draw, it could be on a caster friendly race with no other mp regen
05:49 <+due> deep elf!
05:49 <+due> instead of not regaining hp, they don't regain mp!
05:49 < dis_astranagant> though that could make places like the crypt and hive off limits
05:49 <+due> the perfect counterpart to deep dwarf.
05:50 < dis_astranagant> although, much like DD, they'd probably just take vehumet or sif to get around that issue
05:51 < Kyrris> due: But, in counterpoint to DD, they don't spend as much mp to cast?
05:51 < Kyrris> At least 1dXL reduction in all spell costs?
05:52 < Kyrris> Would make their early game much less painful.
05:52 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
05:52 < dis_astranagant> 1dXL is a bit much
05:52 < dis_astranagant> free firestorms 2/3 of the time
05:52 < Kyrris> RIght.  I meant 1d(XL/3)
05:53 < dis_astranagant> ah, half price day
05:53 < Kyrris> Right.
05:53 < Kyrris> Over time.
05:53 < Kyrris> But have to *mumblemumble* to regain.
05:53 < Kyrris> Free magic darts forever.
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06:18 < Eronarn> dis_astranagant: i have both posted a mind flayer race and also suggested mind eating as a DS mutation
06:18 < Eronarn> both are on the wiki
06:19 <@elly> mind flayers!
06:19 <@elly> Picture a mind.
06:21 < Eronarn> stomping on a lesser mind forever?
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06:26 < Ashenzari> NONEXISTENT FOE (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=483) by Kyrris
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08:00 <+due> hi
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08:01 <+due> Argh, not vapours and non-existant foes again.
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08:14 <+greensnark> @whereis MarvinPA
08:14 < Gretell> MarvinPA the Fighter (L16 DSCK), a worshipper of Makhleb, saved on Shoal:5 on 2010-01-20 after 58965 turns.
08:15 <+greensnark> Napkin: This savegame backup script is <3
08:15 <+due> I knoow
08:17 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2490-gcface99 (16.1)
08:17 <+greensnark> cface99, eh
08:18 <+due> Face it! we need c00?
08:18 <+due> *c99?
08:19 < Napkin> Moin guys!
08:20 <+sorear> GC Face!
08:20 <+due> moin napkin!
08:20 <+sorear> due: You wouldn't happen to know what -a1-2490- means?
08:20 <+due> sorear: Yes.
08:21 <+due> Two seconds.
08:21 <+due> Hm.
08:21 <+due> -a1-2367 is the currernt build on trunk
08:21 <+due> So I'm not sure where -a1-2490 cae from.
08:21 <+due> Er, on CDO's trunk page.
08:28 <+due> purge83_! :D
08:28 <+due> Why 83_? I dislike my purges suffixed.
08:29 < CIA-81> greensnark * r0be1cdcb2cb5 /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-cast.cc monster.cc): Fix Call Tide never ending (MarvinPA), increase the duration of call tide.
08:29 <+due> Ooh
08:29 <+due> That reminds me to do my atollkrakenvault.
08:29 <+due> Can we place items in deep water in vaults now?
08:30 <+greensnark> dpeg does not officially endorse this practice :)
08:31 <+due> Well
08:31 <+due> When you kilil the kraken in this vault, the water will disappear
08:31 -!- purge83_ is now known as purge
08:31 <+sorear> due: FYI you can't use apostrophes in C++ preprocessor tokens
08:31 < purge> hi
08:31 < purge> due: just for you, i removed the 83 from my alternate nick :)
08:32 <+due> purge: hooray!
08:32 <+due> sorear: I did somewhere? Bah. Where?
08:32 <+sorear> M_CAN_SWIM_BUT_DOESN'T_LIKE_TO-esque flag could be created that allows
08:32 <+due> sorear: Oh, hehehehehe.
08:32 <+due> sorear: Yeah, but BUT_DOESNT_LIKE_TO looked.. icky.
08:32 < purge> due: shouldn't non-merfolk be able to see items in deep water and retrieve them with apportation?
08:33 <+due> purge: ---^ ask sorear.
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08:34 <+sorear> purge: no.  Having to apport the items merfolk drop is a huge source of grinding, especially if you have to take off armor first
08:35 < purge> Roger. Anyways, time for sleeeeep
08:35 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["zzz"]
08:39 < CIA-81> greensnark stone_soup-0.5 * ra5a74493f8ae /crawl-ref/source/maps.cc: Fix bug in handling .des map validation failures (Eifeltrampel).
08:42 <+Zaba_> what is being developed in the messagewindow branch?
08:43 <+greensnark> Zaba_: You'll never guess
08:43 <+greensnark> Nothing like naming a branch clearly to confuse users :D
08:43 <+Zaba_> well, er..
08:44 <+Zaba_> "message window" can mean many things..
08:44 <+greensnark> It's merged into master now, pull and take a look :)
08:45 <+Zaba_> oh, it is? Okay
08:49 <+greensnark> !tv * Shoal
08:49 < Henzell> 75. LordSloth, XL19 MfSt, T:62056 requested for FooTV.
08:51 <+greensnark> Wow, he really worked hard for that death
08:51 <+greensnark> He was killing ordinary merfolk and completely ignoring the javelineer until it got him to 40 hp
08:51 <+greensnark> And it took a long time to get him to 40 hp :P
08:51 <+greensnark> Like a dozen turns :P
08:54 <+greensnark> due: Could you update CDO with the tide fix so MarvinPA can continue his game?
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09:03 <+due> greensnark: Sure
09:03 <+due> Sorry, was making dinner.
09:04 <+due> MarvinPA: Oh, you'rehere, too.
09:04 < MarvinPA> yus!
09:05 < MarvinPA> thanks :)
09:05 <+due> Napkin: CDo has never seen so many updates in one night!
09:05 <+due> message.cc: In member function ‘void message_window::place_cursor() const’:
09:05 <+due> message.cc:202: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned integer expressions
09:05 <+due> Is that an issue?
09:06 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2491-g0be1cdc (16.1)!
09:07 <+due> @whereis turnerjer
09:07 < Gretell> turnerjer the Chucker (L8 DSAs), a worshipper of Xom, saved on D:7 on 2010-01-20 after 7093 turns.
09:10 <+greensnark> due: Thanks!
09:10 < CIA-81> greensnark * rf22333f7d00b /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Fix signed-unsigned comparison warning (due).
09:11 <+due> greensnark: Is there a wizmode command for tidal affectations?
09:12 <+greensnark> No
09:12 <+due> Ah, okay.
09:12 <+greensnark> Could add one
09:12 <+due> I'm trying to work out how best to do an atoll with kraken.
09:12 <+greensnark> What would you need it to do
09:13 <+greensnark> Hmm, lots of wizmode commands already
09:13 <+due> Hm, "force tide change", "increase tide rate"?
09:13 <+due> I know.
09:14 <+due> Half the problem with wizmode commands is working out a letter for them.
09:14 <+greensnark> Ok, I'll grab ')'
09:14 <+greensnark> Not ideal :P
09:15 <+greensnark> But it's wasting its sweetness on the desert air
09:15 <+due> Isn't it used for something?
09:15 <+greensnark> ( and ) are both used to create features
09:16 <+greensnark> They used to be subtly and needlessly different, but they're unified now
09:16 <+due> Ahh.
09:17 <+greensnark> Tide rate is currently a constant, I can make it changeable, but the change will not be saved
09:17 <+greensnark> I don't suppose that's a problem
09:17 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1758613
09:17 <+due> What do you think of that?
09:18 <+due> Needs more random.
09:18 <+greensnark> It should have a one-square wide floor all round
09:18 <+greensnark> Like the hangout of the watcher in the water at the gates of Moria
09:18 <+due> Hm.
09:19 <+greensnark> Maybe a gate at the back that will not open? :P
09:19 <+greensnark> Is that doable? :P
09:19 <+due> Haha.
09:19 <+due> Gate isn't.
09:20 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1758615
09:20 <+due> Mor elike that?
09:20 <+greensnark> Yes, but maybe there should be something at the back?
09:20 <+greensnark> A statue if not a door that cannot be opened 
09:20 <+greensnark> Or fountains or something
09:21 <+greensnark> Something to draw the player in
09:21 <+greensnark> Loot? :)
09:21 <+greensnark> The kraken has left one or two items up there to lure idiot mortals in
09:21 <+due> Hm.
09:22 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1758618
09:22 <+due> The loot goes in the water.
09:22 <+greensnark> Of course, any player with any sense will know there's something i nthe water
09:22 <+due> When the water goes away, all the fprops that restrict the tides also go.
09:22 <+greensnark> due: Yes, most of the loot should be in the water
09:22 <+greensnark> But there should be the token bait outside :)
09:22 <+greensnark> The kraken wants things to come in, so it sets up some bait :P
09:22 <+due> I still don't like the shape, bah.
09:23 <+due> I am also obsessed with symmetry.
09:25 <+due> Excellent! This is better
09:36 <+due> Hey cool, I'm using kfeat, kitem, kmons and kprop all on the same key spec :D
09:39 <+due> greensnark: Oh, are you there?
09:41 <+greensnark> Yes
09:42 <+due> greensnark: How would I go about write an accessor for monster props in Lua?
09:42 <+due> Oh.
09:43 <+due> I guess I can switch off get_type() and then just push the relevant value.
09:43 <+due> Okay, never mind!
09:43 <+greensnark> There's a bunch of props like name and experience already done, just do it the same way?
09:43 <+due> I meant monster->props, the CrawlHashTable
09:45 <+due> I think I'll rewrite the items library to use userdata instead.
09:45 <+due> Which then makes Troves easier, so win/win situation.
09:46 <+greensnark> Bloody submodules
09:47 <+due> Hehe, did you bork them?
09:47 <+greensnark> I switched to 0.5 and back, and as usual they're up to their silly twix.
09:48 <+due> I hate hate hate submodules in this regard.
09:49 <+greensnark> I hate to say this, but svn:externals is better :P
09:49 <+greensnark> It really needs a nice porcelain frontend to hide all the ick
09:50 <+greensnark> And if I want to quickly clone one local repo to another, guess what
09:50 <+sorear> What's wrong with submodules?
09:51 <+greensnark> sorear: They're too low-level
09:51 <+greensnark> I spend an awful lot of time futzing with them 
09:51 <+greensnark> The end user shouldn't have to write scripts just to automate submodules stupidity
09:52 -!- Keskitalo [n=einokesk@tuomi.oulu.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
09:53 <+greensnark> We have a Keskitalo
09:53 <+due> OMG a Keskitalo!
09:53 < Napkin> Eino!
09:54 < Keskitalo> Hehe, hi folks. :)
09:54 < Henzell> Keskitalo: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
09:54 < Keskitalo> !messages
09:54 < Henzell> (1/1) due said (8h 54m 49s ago): Love the new Donald tile. :D
09:54 < Keskitalo> \o/
09:54 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: Did you sneak in the duck legs that I requested? :P
09:54 < Keskitalo> cbus hated the hair, so all should be all right.
09:54 < Keskitalo> greensnark: No, but I considered not including pants!
09:54 <+greensnark> Yeah, if cbus doesn't dislike something, you're not doing it right
09:55 < Napkin> hehe
09:55 < Keskitalo> Looks like leguin.freenode.net booted me off last night.. my backlog ;_;
09:55 <+greensnark> Freenode still under that silly DDoS I guess
09:55 <+due> Keskitalo: http://tozt.net/crawl!
09:56 <+due> I loved the hair!
09:56 <+due> I wanted  spiky hair.
09:57 < Keskitalo> ohh, the logs.
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10:00 < CIA-81> greensnark * r88057237d9e2 /crawl-ref/source/ (cio.cc dgn-shoals.cc dgn-shoals.h main.cc): Add wizmode &) to modify tide speed or level.
10:01 <+due> <333
10:02 <+due> greensnark: Where should I look for documentation on C++ Lua metatables?
10:03 <+due> I suppose I could google.
10:03 < cbus> keskitalo, I did?
10:03 < cbus> keskitalo, I didn't mind lair
10:04 <+due> Oh no, we'll have to change it then.
10:08 < Keskitalo> cbus: hair not lair!
10:09 <+greensnark> due: The Lua manual is online
10:10 <+greensnark> Probably easier to identify some existing code that's similar to what you want to do and do that same thing, though
10:10 <+greensnark> Metatable discussions tend to be dizzying :)
10:10 <+greensnark> Hey cbus
10:10 <+greensnark> @whereis cbus
10:10 < Gretell> cbus the Vandal (L1 HaHu) saved on D:1 on 2010-01-11 after 232 turns.
10:10 <+greensnark> :P
10:17 -!- Ero_ [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["leaving"]
10:25 <+due> greensnark: Yeah, I decided to go that route.
10:26 <+sorear> &), eh
10:26 <+sorear> I take it we're running out of keys
10:26 <+due> We've a lot of CONTROLs left.
10:27 <+greensnark> No ^T though :P
10:27 <+sorear> but we aren't using stuff like ~T yet
10:28 <+sorear> (that's control-alt-T, ECMA-035 code 148)
10:30 < cbus> morning
10:33 < syllogism> looks like you can scum nemelex decks infinitely as a mummy, as in you never have to leave the temple once your piety is high enough
10:33 < syllogism> and if the weights are correct, he'll only gift you the types of decks you want
10:34 < cbus> nice
10:38 <+sorear> you get enough piety using decks to replace the decks?
10:39 < syllogism> piety decay is very slow and you'll always wait for 400+ turns after each gift
10:39 < Kyrris> As long as you don't use his abilities.
10:39 < Kyrris> And you keep running the risk of horrible consequences.
10:39 < syllogism> of course if you ever sacrifice a weapon, you'll probably keep getting decks of destruction as the weights will all hit 1 eventually (???)
10:40 < syllogism> and eventually you'll draw a card that'll banish you
10:42 < cbus> syllogism, try it on CDO:)
10:42 < cbus> would be interesting to watch
10:42 < syllogism> I don't like mummies :P
10:42 < cbus> me neither
10:44 < Kyrris> Nooooooooooooooooooooooo
10:44 < Kyrris> Wrong channel.
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10:47 <+greensnark> !tell dpeg Can we remove mummies for 0.6?
10:47 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
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10:50 <@dpeg> cheers
10:50 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
10:50 <@dpeg> !messages
10:50 < Henzell> (1/1) greensnark said (2m 47s ago): Can we remove mummies for 0.6?
10:50 <+by> hi
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10:51 <@dpeg> !tell greensnark Got killed by one? I got killed by Snorg, that's even more humiliating.
10:51 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let greensnark know.
10:51 < syllogism> :P
10:51 <@dpeg> @whereis dpeg
10:51 < Gretell> dpeg the Destroyer (L16 KeFE), a worshipper of Fedhas, dead on Elf:1 on 2010-01-20 after 68452 turns.
10:51 <@dpeg> so much for Fedhas testing :/
10:54 < Keskitalo> Hiya dpeg!
10:55 < Keskitalo> greensnark: Isn't everything that's scummable by mummies scummable by vampires too?
10:55 <@dpeg> greensnark: ah, you ment *player* mummies! Context missing :)
10:56 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: not really, b/c bloodless Vampires don't heal.
10:56 <@dpeg> greensnark: seriously, I wound't mind tacking some clock on to mummies.
10:56 <@dpeg> Like their bandages getting off and they having to fix that with scrolls or something.
10:58 <@dpeg> by: messagewindow is on CDO now?
10:58 <+by> yes
10:58 <@dpeg> cool, many thanks
10:58 <+greensnark> dpeg: I mean the player species, yes :)
10:58 < Henzell> greensnark: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
10:59 <+due> dpeg! <3
10:59 <+greensnark> !messages
10:59 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (7m 54s ago): Got killed by one? I got killed by Snorg, that's even more humiliating.
10:59 <@dpeg> by: I am talking with Haran about the targeting interface. As I see it, the ideal case would be to use a fixed amount of the message window for each targeting session: fixed header (the Aim and Firing lines), followed by a variable line for monster descriptions. Is it possible to do that without much flickering from redraws?
10:59 <+due> dpeg: Many thanks and many complaints. It got to the point where I was debatingbanning half the people active in -dev :)
11:00 <@dpeg> greensnark: I believe that Mu should be repaired. Especially since it's "incredibly hard early on, easy later" which is not good.
11:00 <+by> flickering from redraws shoudln't be an issue
11:00 <@dpeg> due: complaints about Donald?
11:00 <+due> dpeg: No, messagewindow.
11:00 <@dpeg> by: good. Do you see another issue?
11:00 <+greensnark> dpeg: And every time I spectate a Mu player, I want to go over and shoot them :P
11:00 <@dpeg> due: just kick more. 
11:00 <@dpeg> greensnark: I never played Mu. No idea how some players manage.
11:01 <+greensnark> They can be played without grinding, but 90% of players don't
11:01 <+greensnark> It's like NH pudding farming :P
11:01 <@dpeg> due: did they have a point or was it mere complaining only because something is new and different?
11:01 <+by> dpeg: it's different from the current model to some extent so would require changes to the message code; but that's not an issue
11:01 <+by> there's only one place that needs to be hacked for that now
11:01 < syllogism> worse and worse oods over time please, wouldn't fix the problem but would allow some fun splats
11:02 <@dpeg> greensnark: Erik kept telling me that the spots for scumming in Crawl (Mu, Pan, Nemelex) are intentional and should stay. But I never really believed that.
11:02 < syllogism> pan should stay :P
11:02 <+greensnark> dpeg: Well, Erik liked farming
11:02 <@dpeg> Yes to all.
11:02 <@dpeg> by: and the one place is overwriting the old line?
11:02 <+due> dpeg: There were bugs, but they were complaining about them.
11:03 <+by> the one place is message.cc
11:03 <+due> As in, filed, and then continuing to whinge.
11:03 <@dpeg> grrr
11:03 <@dpeg> due: kickban
11:03 <+due> Yeah.
11:03 <+by> it wasn't that bad really IMO
11:03 <+due> I decided to get back to work instead of slacking off. :)
11:03 <@dpeg> they can complain in ##crawl or in #nethack or wherever else
11:03 <+greensnark> ##crawl-whine channel needed
11:03 <+due> by: True.
11:03 <+due> greensnark: and ##crawl-wine for afters?
11:03 <@dpeg> syllogism: I believe that respawning is not good right now. Don't want useless monsters as respawns. No rats please -- OODs are okay.
11:03 <+due> dpeg: I'm looking at the dlua items library for Troves.
11:04 <@dpeg> due: hero!
11:04 <+due> It's... harder than I expected.
11:04 <@dpeg> gulp
11:04 < syllogism> respawning is good, but I suppose you could make them stop eventually
11:04 <@dpeg> greensnark is here
11:04 <+due> I think I'm going to have to cull everything but one or two functions from the current monster library and then adapt that to items.
11:04 <+due> Then move all the item fuctions back in.
11:04 <+due> Yes, I'll be sending him my drafts. :)
11:04 <+due> Oh!
11:04 <+by> we need ##crawl for players, ##crawl-dev for devs and chosen players, and something in between for mixed communication :)
11:05 <@dpeg> by: yes, for that we have a few outstanding individuals.
11:05 <+due> dpeg: http://pastebin.ca/1758705
11:05 <@dpeg> should only let people into ##crawl-dev by invitation :)
11:05 <+due> dpeg: It's easier to just kick out the unwanteds, I think.
11:06 <@dpeg> due: beautiful vault
11:06 <+due> dpeg: Yes, you kil the kraken, the water will eventaully go away, and you get item. <3
11:06 <+due> I just have to write code for accessing monster props. Sigh.
11:07 < Mu_> due did your snake vault get finished
11:08 <+due> Mu_: Kinda, I've got a final version that just needs threat.
11:08 <+due> But it may wait until we get pretty corridors first.
11:08 <+due> Mu_: You saw that lastnight though, today was a work day rather than a spend it all day slacking day :)
11:08 < Mu_> ;o
11:10 <+due> Now, jogging time
11:15 <@dpeg> have fun
11:15 <+due> Haven't gone yet :/
11:15 <@dpeg> Go!
11:15 <+greensnark> Go west
11:15 <+due> Yes, I will
11:20 < Keskitalo> Argh, no invitation-only ##crawl-dev. Just whine at whiners and kick if they don't comply. :) I liked Rob's "those who don't read commits and/or c-r-d, take your whining to ##crawl" (about messagewindow). 
11:21 <@dpeg> okay, good policy
11:21 < Keskitalo> Everyone should be welcome to contribute, and that includes hanging out on ##crawl-dev, but to participate a certain level of effort should be expected; plus on-topicness.
11:22 < CIA-81> by * r7fb1e08fc310 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Move prompt display out of msgwin_get_line.
11:22 < CIA-81> by * r610e12ba8f80 /crawl-ref/source/macro.cc: Macro entry with msgwin_get_line_autohist.
11:22 < CIA-81> by * r0b8f4b95af24 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Fix inverted use of return value of cancelable_get_line.
11:23 < Keskitalo> And lurking is fin.
11:23 -!- by [n=rob@g225109228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["later"]
11:23 <@dpeg> lurking fin die siecle
11:23 <@dpeg> *de
11:23 <+greensnark> Lurking fin de shark
11:23 <@dpeg> hehe
11:24 <@dpeg> greensnark: so, I will try to come up with ideas for Mu. So far, I always ignored them when designing.
11:27 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yeah, they're a blight on the face of Crawl :)
11:28 <+greensnark> They're quite interesting when not farmed, so any disincentive to sit around and farm will work well
11:33 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, should be able to come up with something
11:36 -!- NoX1ouS [n=samimyll@tuomi.oulu.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:37 < NoX1ouS> hi
11:38 < NoX1ouS> you might have heard about the UKKOSS5 project from university of oulu ?
11:39 <@dpeg> yes
11:40 < NoX1ouS> well, I'm going to be involved in a small part of that
11:40 <+greensnark> Is that the accessibility thing that Keskitalo talked about?
11:40 < NoX1ouS> usability/accessibility yes
11:40 <+greensnark> Ah
11:40 <+due> Hooray for usability!
11:41 <+due> Agree strongly with Eino's comments regarding invite-only, I just don't think that works well for something that is essentually community-driven and open source.
11:42 < NoX1ouS> I'm propably the only one in the project that knows anything about game usability atm :/ but I'll do my best to get others excited too
11:42 <+due> Hooray, though!
11:42 < NoX1ouS> heh
11:43 < NoX1ouS> what are you expecting to get from us?
11:43 <+due> I've no idea, but it sounds interesting?
11:44 < NoX1ouS> you know freedroid?
11:44 <@dpeg> NoX1ouS: well, any comments on how to make the interface easier understand for players without background in the genre
11:44 <+due> Yes, I've heard of it, but never played it.
11:44 <+due> Unless this is a colony of freed droids, who roam free in the wild!
11:45 < NoX1ouS> I did a similar thing for them a while ago
11:46 < NoX1ouS> general usability issues and to help new players get inside the game easier
11:46  * due nod.
11:46 <+due> Are you looking sppecifically at tiles, or tiles as well as ascii?
11:46 <@dpeg> yes, feedback on that is welcome, NoX1ouS 
11:47 <+due> I think ASCII has inherent usability issues that aren't easily addresses, but it would be interesting to hear ssome comments on it.
11:47 < NoX1ouS> hoping to get a look at both, but we'll propably focus on the tiles-side
11:48 <+due> Yeah, tiles is more easily adapted.
11:49 <@dpeg> but I cannot play it :)
11:49 < NoX1ouS> players seem to get more drawn to graphics today :p
11:49 <+due> I find tiles impossible to actually play. :)
11:49 < bhaak> today? I started on a GUI-version with menus in the late 80ies
11:49 <@dpeg> NoX1ouS: maybe (I cannot comment, I don't play games), but I think it's hopeless to even try to compete with commercial games 
11:50 <+due> dpeg: Agree, and the "roguelike niche", as it were, has always been for ASCII interfaces.
11:50 < NoX1ouS> well, competing in their own area is, but you could allways make somethings better
11:51 <@dpeg> NoX1ouS: I thought the appeal of Tiles is more about using the mouse (and hence less the barock key set)
11:51 <@dpeg> presenting monsters as simple graphics vs letters is more a psychological hurdle, I guess
11:51 < NoX1ouS> There's nothing scarier than a black D
11:52 <@dpeg> NoX1ouS: Nethack player :P
11:52 < NoX1ouS> can still remember the date I finished it :)
11:52 < bhaak> which looks like a pale blue D :)
11:53 <@dpeg> NoX1ouS: I believe that Crawl is far ahead of Nethack when it comes to usability
11:53 <@dpeg> (I am not saying this in order to annoy bhaak)
11:54 <+due> !lg ktyp=winning -4
11:54 < Henzell> 2. bookofjude the Executioner (L27 MDCK), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2009-07-17, with 1720473 points after 125198 turns and 9:23:03.
11:54 <+due> !lg ktyp=winning -5
11:54 < Henzell> 1. bookofjude the Executioner (L27 MDFi), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2009-03-07, with 1312901 points after 154757 turns and 15:38:51.
11:54 <+due> My first win :D
11:54 < bhaak> dpeg: :) I don't disagree with you 
11:54 <+due> @whereis bhaak
11:54 < Gretell> bhaak the Skirmisher (L1 MfFi) quit on D:1 on 2010-01-06 after 28 turns.
11:54 <@dpeg> bhaak: cool. Just noted that it might sound deliberately offensive.
11:54 <+due> Ah, never mind. :)
11:54 < bhaak> I quit? must have pressed the wrong buttons
11:54 < NoX1ouS> haven't had a try yet, but will give it a go during this week
11:55 < NoX1ouS> propably will start with the ascii, as I prefer my roguelikes ascii :)
11:55 <+due> Well, Crawl is the first roguelike I played and enjoyed, and... look at me now! :)
11:55 <@dpeg> NoX1ouS: there is a tutorial!
11:55 <+due> dpeg: Tutorial might be something we need to look at, too.
11:55 < NoX1ouS> good, one point passed allready!
11:55 <+due> (As in, extending, etc.)
11:56 < NoX1ouS> if you're interested theres my bachelors thesis about game heuristics during development
11:57 < NoX1ouS> it's not that good paper, but will give an idea about addressing usability during development
11:58 < NoX1ouS> can be found here: http://kgbry.kicks-ass.net/kandi.pdf
11:58 <+due> Sounds interesting!
11:58 <+sorear> you're with evtaklo?
11:59 < NoX1ouS> me?
12:02 <+due> I assume so.
12:03 < NoX1ouS> what/who is evtaklo? :)
12:04 < syllogism> keskitalo
12:04 < syllogism> eino
12:04 < NoX1ouS> oh
12:04 <+due> I thought evtaklo was someone else?
12:05 <+sorear> evtaklo is or was his/her netname
12:05 < syllogism> it's evktalo isn't it :P
12:05 <+sorear> same letters
12:05 <+due> Ah.
12:05 < NoX1ouS> evktalo sounds more like our generated usernames
12:05 <+due> There's another "ev<something with k and t>" around that != Eino.
12:06 <+sorear> NoX1ouS: Eino V KeskiTALO?
12:06 < NoX1ouS> must be
12:07 -!- henryci [n=henry@c-71-232-165-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit []
12:07 -!- henryci [n=henry@c-71-232-165-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
12:08 <+due> is lua_pushboolean one of ours?
12:09 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r5cdf988e027c /crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: In the Ctrl-X menu, also list monsters' attitude as charmed and peaceful.
12:09 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rb7d209a4a7e2 /crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Switch Ctrl-X monster's examine/execute modes for consistency with items.
12:09 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r61e1c80be455 /crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Experimentally, default Ctrl-X behaviour to ACT_EXECUTE.
12:09  * due ACT_EXECUTEs some monsters.
12:12 -!- hashc [n=hash@adsl-68-76-123-64.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
12:13 < NoX1ouS> oh, and there's our stuff we did for freedroid available at their wiki: http://freedroid.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ToDo/UsabilityStudy
12:17 < syllogism> the "random/mixed" loot in wizlab doroklohe seems be pretty awful compared to "armours" and "scrolls"
12:17 <+due> syllogism: Thanks, will note that in the header.
12:18 <+due> Which one is "random/mixed"?
12:19 < syllogism> #           0 = scrolls. 1 = armours. 2 = mixed
12:19 <+due> Ah
12:19 < syllogism> so 2
12:19 <+due> I am blind.
12:19 <+due> Hm
12:19 <+due> It's weighted towards *s and |s.
12:20 < syllogism> marvinpa couldn't clear it, he got the layout with an ancient lich and a greater mummy
12:20 < syllogism> and had to run away
12:20  * due cackles.
12:20 < MarvinPA> i was a coward :(
12:20 <+due> MarvinPA: Poor you. :(
12:20 <+due> !lm * br.enter=wizlab
12:20 < Henzell> 14. [2010-01-20] MarvinPA the Warrior (L19 DSCK) entered Doroklohe's Tomb on turn 83134. (WizLab)
12:20 <+due> !lm * br.enter=wizlab -tv:<0:>$
12:20 < Henzell> 14. MarvinPA, XL19 DSCK, T:83134 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
12:20 < syllogism> due: yeah I noticed that but at least based on a sample size of three all I got was basically d1 grade items
12:20 <+due> (I have to see this)
12:20 < MarvinPA> hah, it's not very exciting
12:20 <+due> syllogism: Really? Odd.
12:21 <+due> syllogism: Maybe item level is weird in portal vaults.
12:21 <+due> syllogism: I've never checked that before.
12:21 <+due> It sould be using absdepth() though...
12:21 <+due> FooTV is slow today.
12:21 < syllogism> I got some cheese, a club, a plain deck, a robe, a hand axe, a glowing bow
12:21 <+due> MarvinPA: Isn't it pretty, though?
12:21 <+due> syllogism: That's broken.
12:22 < syllogism> a dagger, a wizard staff
12:22 < cbus> hmm interesting
12:22 < cbus> --more-- ends up being scrolled up in the clear message thingie
12:22 < MarvinPA> it is! the tomb thing is cool
12:22 <+due> cbus: I believe this is a known issue.
12:22 < cbus> like its a normal message
12:22 < cbus> due, oki, not posting BR then :)
12:22 <+due> MarvinPA: Combined effort: design by dpeg, implementation of boxes by enne, mechanism of them dropping by me.
12:23 < MarvinPA> nice :)
12:23 < cbus> due, you get like 24 --more if you get paralysed by xyuf
12:23 < cbus> btw
12:23 < cbus> like right after each other
12:23 <+due> Aahahahhaa
12:23 <+due> Oh man, that's so evil.
12:23 < cbus> the bugger made me berserk after paralysing
12:23 < cbus> went to 4 hp
12:23 < cbus> but took him out :D
12:24 < cbus> but youg et like 4-5 --more-- straight after each other, it looks weird
12:24 <+due> MarvinPA: You could've used silence.
12:24 < MarvinPA> yeah, i probably should've tried that
12:24 <+due> Silence + executioners = bye.
12:24 < MarvinPA> i've never got a crusader-style character to this point though, so i'm not used to the playstyle
12:24 <+due> dpeg particularly wanted that one to be ultra-evil.
12:25 <+due> The threat may be slightly too much, though.
12:25 < cbus> well trunk is much harder now
12:25 < syllogism> due: oh wait, I guess the item level depends on the portal depth, I should probably try testing it deeper: P
12:25 < cbus> so many nasty new uniques
12:26 < cbus> pretty much no crappy uniques left except jessica and the crappy goblin
12:26 <+due> syllogism: Yes, it does.
12:26 <+due> cbus: Jessica is fucking *scary* now.
12:26 < cbus> (after that I guess sigmund is the only bad one left) :)
12:26 < cbus> due, hmm?
12:26 <+due> Jessica has killed me a thousand times, or near enogh.
12:26 < cbus> what got changed?
12:26 <+due> And  yes, I'm glad we're close to achieving "non-boring" uniques.
12:26 <+due> @??jessica
12:26 < Gretell> Jessica (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Flags: evil, spellcaster | Res: magic(4) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 25 | Sp: pain, slow, haste, blink.
12:26 <+due> @?jessica
12:26 < Gretell> Jessica (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(4) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 4 | Sp: magic dart, slow, haste, blink.
12:26 < syllogism> nothing I think, jessica has always been nasty
12:26 < syllogism> if she slows you
12:26 < syllogism> and hastes
12:26 < cbus> also seems that orcs spawn in nice large packs more often
12:27 < cbus> with like 1-2 orc wizards+priests
12:27 <+due> And here greensnark coimplains about the early game being easy :)
12:27 <+due> cbus: Have you been tormented by Menkaure yet?
12:27 < cbus> ?? menakure
12:27 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled menakure in my learndb.
12:27 < cbus> ?? menkaure
12:27 < Henzell> menkaure[1/1]: A unique, early mummy, also found in Ossuary. Knows pain, torment, and haste. Orc-wizard purple!
12:27 < cbus> yeah
12:27 < cbus> hmm
12:27 < cbus> yay
12:27 < cbus> altar that is unreachable :/
12:27 <+due> @??menkaure
12:27 < Gretell> Menkaure (M) | Speed: 6 | HD: 3 | Health: 24 | AC/EV: 3/6 | Damage: 25 | Flags: undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(20), cold, poison | Vul: fire | XP: 121 | Sp: pain, haste, torment symbol.
12:28 <+due> I should give him a robe of resistance. :D
12:28 < cbus> 12:27:33 < Gretell> pingpong the Ruffian (L5 TrFi), succumbed to poison on D:4, with 460 points after 3493 turns and 0:11:39.
12:28 < cbus> there you go
12:28 < cbus> gotta love unreachable overflow vaults
12:28 < cbus> :)
12:28 < cbus> -Welcome, pingpong the Troll Fighter.
12:30 < cbus> (the magic dart wand didn't do enough damage so I needed some help by a kobold)
12:30 <+greensnark> !cdo
12:30 < Henzell> 9 players: crepe (L2 MfCr @ D:1, T:522), MarvinPA (L20 DSCK @ Crypt:5, T:85590), moq (L10 DrTm @ D:9, T:15521), nubinia (L12 SETm @ Lair:5, T:20224), pingpong (L1 TrFi @ D:1, T:292), polystyrus (L8 DSVM @ D:8, T:10309), RoundRobin (L7 MfIE @ D:6, T:5579), Silwyr (L2 HEFE @ D:1, T:752), Zicher (L21 MiBe @ Crypt:3, T:60797)
12:30 <+greensnark> Oops, I keep doing that in the wrong window :P
12:31  * due spanks greensnark.
12:31 < cbus> greensnark, how about buffing =oTele
12:31 < cbus> making it not randomly teleport you
12:32 <+due> The only reason =oTele is still existant is because it can randomly teleport you.
12:32 < cbus> btw, ^P is bugged
12:32 < cbus> it gets cleared by the delay message clear thingie
12:33 <+due> As in, completely cleared?
12:33 < cbus> yes
12:33 <+due> Or you have to scroll back to get to it?
12:33 < cbus> check my game
12:33 < cbus> you do not get to scroll
12:33 <+due> Too lazy to do so :)
12:33 < cbus> (you do scroll by numlock right?)
12:33 < cbus> I mean numpad
12:33 <+greensnark> Why don't you play cbus, damn you
12:33 <+due> < and >, or - and +
12:33 <+greensnark> *as cbus
12:33 < cbus> greensnark, why?
12:34 < cbus> greensnark, I don't play seriously on this account :)
12:34 <+greensnark> I can never remember "pingpong" :P
12:34 <+greensnark> Let's see the bug, then
12:34 <+due> cbus is ever serious?
12:34 < cbus> I don't suicide chars every 5 seconds on purpose when I get bored :)
12:34 < cbus> (waiting in front of *)
12:34 < cbus> and stuff
12:35 < cbus> greensnark, theres another bug
12:35 < cbus> the note prompt cuts
12:35 <+due> greensnark: How do I deal with giving longs and floats to Lua stack? is lua_pushnumber overloaded for this?
12:35 < cbus> ooh whats this y bug?
12:35 < cbus> with repeated y on multiple lines
12:35  * due takes cbus's batteries out.
12:36 <+due> (Finally, peace and quiet.)
12:36 < cbus> getting you a screenshot :)
12:36 <+greensnark> due: Lua treats all numbers as doubles, so you can just use lua_pushnumber, yes
12:36 <+due> dpeg is still here! dpeg, someone did the Doroklohe wizlab.
12:36 <+due> greensnark: Hooray!
12:36 <+due> greensnark: Hm, what about char?
12:37 <+greensnark> char is just a tiny int, so pushnumber will work there as well
12:37 <+greensnark> Unless you want Lua to see it as a string?
12:37 <+greensnark> Depends on how the char is used
12:37 < cbus> due, http://haxxor.se/~cbus/ybug.png
12:37 < cbus> due, is that a bug? (the y at the right)
12:37 <+due> greensnark: Yeah, that's what I'm wondering.
12:37 <+due> greensnark: Eh, I'll treat it as an int.
12:37 <+due> cbus: Yes.
12:37 <+greensnark> cbus: ... you're using Windows 7 :P
12:38 <+greensnark> You terrible person
12:38 < cbus> greensnark, yes
12:38 < cbus> its better than vista/xp :)
12:38 <+greensnark> That's not saying much :P
12:38 < cbus> ?? rock wall
12:38 < Henzell> rock wall[1/1]: The basic fabric of ordinary dungeon levels and functionally equivalent to the walls of pandemonium. Unlike other kinds of wall, it can be removed by wand of digging, wand of disintegration, Lee's Rapid Deconstruction, Shatter, Corruption, Summon Elemental, stone of earth elementals, boring beetles, Dissolution, and eyes of devastation..
12:38 <+greensnark> Looks like line input has some minor issues in the new message window
12:39 <+due> You're using Windows.
12:40 <+due> greensnark: Also, I think I may misunderstand something; Lua functions that error and don't return any value, the actual C++ functoin should return 0; otherwise, it should return the number of arguments passed, yes?
12:41 < cbus> the y bug is from the notes being cut off at 80 chars instad of being newlined
12:41 < cbus> btw
12:44 <+greensnark> due: I didn't understand the question
12:44 <+greensnark> If you use luaL_error or lua_error, the function doesn't return, but throws an exception or longjmps out
12:44 <+due> greensnark: Okay.
12:45 <+greensnark> For normal returns, the function must return the number of return values it pushed onto the stack
12:45 <+due> Okay, good.
12:45 <+due> This is what I thought.
12:49 < Ashenzari> long notes and side effects (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=484) by cbus
12:52 < cbus>  J - a giant spiked club
12:54 < st_> I think I somehow caused an infinite loop, look at roundrobin
12:55 <+greensnark> Do you have any naughty macros
12:55 < cbus> found a bug in P
12:55 < st_> nope, I was mashing ` a lot though
12:55 < cbus> http://pastebin.com/d7d9083c7
12:55 < cbus> is that a bug?
12:55 < cbus> looks weird that it only lists one of the rings that I'm wearing
12:55 <+due> st_: ` is a killer.
12:55 <+greensnark> cbus: File a bug?
12:56 < cbus> greensnark, my bugs don't get fixed though :)
12:56 <+greensnark> They'll get fixed, get off your persecution narrative :P
12:57 <+greensnark> Yeah, someone needs to get rigorous on `
12:58 <+greensnark> It's been a bug attractor forever
12:58 <+due> It makes me weep.
12:58 <+due> But it's souch a good idea for aa key.
12:58 <+greensnark> It interacts very poorly with macros
12:59 <+greensnark> And it's buggy all by itself
12:59 < syllogism> I've never used it, what's the attraction
12:59 <+greensnark> I don't use it either
12:59 <+due> 57, 40
12:59 <+greensnark> But then, I got used to playing Crawl before it was there
12:59 < Ashenzari> P only showing one ring out of two (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=485) by cbus
12:59 <+due> syllogism: Removing victory dancing would fix it.
13:00 <+greensnark> I remember the blinding flash of enlightenment I got when I realised it was easier to eat strawberries by dropping them on the floor and eating :P
13:00 < syllogism> whoa :P
13:00 <+greensnark> Atomjack does that in his games :P
13:00 <+greensnark> And I was like: "Oh wow, I've been a doofus specifying the item letter for each strawberry!!11!"
13:01 <+due> Woohoo, set prop works!
13:01 <+due> Er, get prop.
13:02 <+greensnark> due: The kraken vault may not actually be affected by the tide if the water at the entrance lands on high ground in the Shoals
13:02 <+due> greensnark: :/
13:02 <+greensnark> The tide can only affect water that's connected to the sea
13:02 <+due> greensnark: Can I manipulate the height map?
13:02 <+due> Damn it, it was such a *good* idea!
13:03 <+greensnark> I could add APIs for the heightmap, but it would still need to be connected to the sea
13:03 <+greensnark> Or I guess we could allow vaults to define additional tide seed points
13:03 <+greensnark> And make the center of the vault a tide seed
13:03 <+due> I like that idea.
13:04 <+greensnark> Is the vault in yet?
13:04 <+due> Well, I like the idea that when the kraken dies, the water suddenly rushes in, if at high tide.
13:04 <+due> No, I'm still writing the property wrapper so I can do sane monster death triggers without having to rremove my toenails with a rusty pair of pliers.
13:04 <+greensnark> But... think of al the toenail golems that will never be born!
13:05 <+due> I'm like the toenail golem abortionist.
13:05 <+greensnark> I didn't know you were anti-toenail-golem-unllife
13:05  * due promotes safe toenailing.
13:05 <+due> Anyway, that's done.
13:18 <+due> Damn it, this isn't goin gto weird, either.
13:19  * greensnark gives due a new keyboard.
13:19 <+due> I really should be asleep.
13:20 <+due> I can't give my kraken a props to use because argh.
13:20 <+due> I need a combined prop/portal_desc marker.
13:22 <+due> The problem is that MonPropsMarker dleetes itself after being triggered.
13:22 <+greensnark> So you need two separate markers?
13:22 <+due> At the same spot.
13:22 <+greensnark> Can be done
13:22 <+due> Or I need to combine MonPropsMarker.
13:22 <+due> it can?
13:22 <+due> I thought it could?
13:22 <+due> ... couldn't*
13:23 <+greensnark> A square can have as many markers as it wants
13:23 <+due> Oh.
13:23 <+due> So wait, MARKER: 1 = blah, MARKER: 1 = blah2 works?
13:23 <+greensnark> Yes
13:23 <+due> Argh.
13:23 <+due> I was always of the opinion that this didn't work for Lua markers.
13:24 <+greensnark> Well, the two markers will not know about each other
13:24 <+due> That's fine.
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13:29 <+due> Oh dear.
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13:37 <+due> I keep getting Lua eerrors.
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13:38 <+due> Okay, it works.
13:39 <+due> greensnark: Pushing. It would be nice if we could specify the center of the map as a high point or something so that it immediately runs away when the kraken dies.
13:39 <+due> greensnark: Would that happen?
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13:40 <+due> Hm, looks like it' that's how rain works.
13:40 <+greensnark> Immediately runs away?
13:41 <+greensnark> Oh, you mean it immediately dries out
13:41 <+due> Yeah.
13:41 <+due> Otherwise,c it works perfectly.
13:41 <+greensnark> That will need heightmap twiddling
13:41 <+due> Currently, there's a change of never being able to get to the water.
13:41 <+greensnark> I can rig that up here once I have the map to play with
13:41 <+due> I just pushed it :)
13:41 <+greensnark> We'll just add a tide seed and bind the water to a specific height
13:42 <+due> Awesome
13:42 <+due> dgn.add_tide_seed, dgn.bind_water_height? :)
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13:42 <+greensnark> Tide seed wil just be a marker :)
13:42 <+due> Welcome back, folks.
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13:43 <+due> greensnark: Did you get it?
13:43 <+due> I'm assuming we lost CIA-81.
13:43 <+greensnark> Yes
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13:44 <+due> Whcih reminds me to add slave_iterator to my todo list
13:44 <+due> Apparnetly it is broken
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13:48 <+due> @??tentacled monstrosity
13:48 < Gretell> tentacled monstrosity (X) | Speed: 9 | HD: 25 | Health: 75-200 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 22, 17, 13 | Flags: demonic, amphibious, see invisible | Res: magic(166), fire, cold, elec++, poison | XP: 2135.
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13:51 <+due> greensnark: I sleep now, let me nkw how it goes.
13:51 <+greensnark> Sure, will do
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13:52 <+due> What a kraken atoll!
13:52 < CIA-81> due wizlab * r0fb512e282ee /crawl-ref/source/dat/wizlab.des: Some Cigotuvi buffs and tweaks.
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13:52 < CIA-81> due wizlab * r773bbd4e65e5 /crawl-ref/ (98 files in 9 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into wizlab
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14:00 < CIA-81> due * r068e22250f5b /crawl-ref/source/l_mons.cc: Additional monster Lua wrappers for props: get_prop, has_prop.
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14:14 < CIA-81> due * r0ed472ac9024 /crawl-ref/source/dat/ (clua/lm_trig.lua shoals.des): Let monster_dies work with props, Shoals Kraken atoll map!
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14:16 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rff6f57e53276 /crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Fix Ctrl-X viewing monsters having no effect with messages_at_top.
14:16 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * ra3b05652523a /crawl-ref/ (8 files in 2 dirs): Rename character job -> background.
14:16 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rb2b7b68710c2 /crawl-ref/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Update documentation on job -> background.
14:16 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r2cfb86c0f299 /crawl-ref/docs/template/apt-tmpl.txt: Whoops, forgot to update the aptitudes _template_.
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14:17 < Mu_> what were teh cig tweaks due
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14:24 < cbus> any way to prevent the history clearing?
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14:41 <@dpeg> !tell NoX1ouS Thanks for paper!
14:41 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let NoX1ouS know.
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14:43 <@dpeg> MarvinPA: tell me about the Dorokhloe wizlab, please.
14:48 <@dpeg> anybody here?
14:49 < syllogism-> yes
14:49 <@dpeg> syllogism-: so is Dorokhloe loot broken?
14:49 < syllogism-> probably not
14:49 <@dpeg> phew
14:50 <@dpeg> depends on depth?
14:50 < syllogism-> the new gdr formulas may be somewhat problematic since they tend to have little to no effect until your armor skill is 15+, maybe even 20
14:51 <@dpeg> syllogism-: which one -- there are now two.
14:51 < syllogism-> both of them, yours is better though
14:51 < syllogism-> I havent tried to decipher NewRR
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14:52 <@dpeg> syllogism-: yeah, I think that NewRR is too complicated, and hence less robust
14:52 <@dpeg> will look at my formula again later (and at your ods files =)
14:52 < syllogism-> "New" is pretty bad as it takes enchantments into account and gives too high GDR for "light" armour
14:55 <@dpeg> yes
14:55 <@dpeg> as I said, GDR should imo be a function of base_AC and nothing else
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14:55 <@dpeg> (well, Armour skill)
14:56 <@dpeg> Mu_: hi Neil!
14:56 < Mu_> yo
15:00 < CIA-81> by * rf6757c334319 /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Fix the first ring not being displayed in _prompt_ring_to_remove.
15:06 <@dpeg> reading through the Freedroid report, I wonder what Crawl will get :)
15:11 < NoX1ouS> found anything similar in it?
15:11 < Henzell> NoX1ouS: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
15:11 < NoX1ouS> !messages
15:11 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (29m 40s ago): Thanks for paper!
15:12 <@dpeg> NoX1ouS: well, I am expecting certain criticisms already :)
15:13 < NoX1ouS> :)
15:13 <@dpeg> NoX1ouS: when you examined Freedroid, did you have a Freedroid player or developer in your ranks?
15:14 < NoX1ouS> we were all students, never heard about freedroid before
15:14 <@dpeg> interesting that you did it then
15:15 < cbus> dpeg, how about role
15:15 < NoX1ouS> well, it was a schoolproject and we asked if they wanted to get free usabilitystudy
15:16 < NoX1ouS> they wanted and we delivered
15:16 <@dpeg> cool
15:16 <@dpeg> I wonder what you guys will say about learning curve in Crawl :O
15:16 < NoX1ouS> we shall see :)
15:18 < cbus> dpeg, role instead of background
15:19 < cbus> background sounds so hmm, "relationship" and stuff
15:19 <@dpeg> cbus: too late!
15:19 < cbus> can still change
15:19 <@dpeg> that ship has sailed
15:19 <@dpeg> nah, Johanna just worked through the manual
15:19 < cbus> doh, that fails :)
15:19 <@dpeg> also, "role" might lead people into thinking "role-playing", something we want to avoid
15:21 < cbus> career also sounds misleading
15:21 < cbus> you get a CV with that?
15:21 < bhaak> you just need a small intro text that gets the player started. that's enough for background :)
15:22 <@dpeg> bhaak: psssh
15:22 <@dpeg> bhaak: nobody read the blurb anyway :P
15:24 < bhaak> dpeg: ha, I've got prove, that at least one person on this planet does read it! http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=11454812#post11454812
15:24 <@dpeg> "Then Marduk created Moloch and Moloch created Mumpi and Mumpi created Mimmelmann and Mimmelmann hatched an egg. You shall retrieve the Egg of Mimmelmann from deep down."
15:25 < bhaak> important informations. WHAT should I get (Egg of Mimmelmann) and WHERE should I get it (deep down). Good role-player don't need more. ;)
15:25 <@dpeg> bhaak: self-referencing does not count!
15:26 < bhaak> he, I'm not KoboldLord!
15:26 <@dpeg> no quests, no stories, no plots, no roles, no tasks, no NPCs, only death & despair
15:26 <@dpeg> ^ what makes a good game :)
15:27 < bhaak> I didn't your goal is to turn Crawl into a PWP
15:27 < bhaak> *know
15:27 <@dpeg> !wtf PWP
15:27 < Henzell> WTF was that? Unthing!
15:28 < bhaak> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWP_%28fanfiction%29#PWP
15:28 <@dpeg> sounds good!
15:29 <@dpeg> especially for the necrophiliacs
15:30 < bhaak> Is that an idea for a new role in crawl?
15:30 < felirx> What I`m proud so far is the fact that crawl is probably the first rpg-like game I`ve gotten past throught the chargen part in less than three hours.
15:31 < bhaak> let me guess, a former angband/moria/omega player? :)
15:31 < felirx> nah, obsessive perfeftionistic minmaxer
15:31 < syllogism-> incursion is the worst
15:32 < syllogism-> it's literally impossible to get past the chargen :P
15:32 <@dpeg> syllogism-: do you still play it?
15:32 < syllogism-> no I never really played it, just tested for a bit
15:32 <@dpeg> felirx: do you like the fact that starting stats/gear are non-random now?
15:32 < felirx> non random is good
15:32 < syllogism-> felirx: have you tried it?
15:32 < felirx> if it was random I`d sit there rolling the stat for hours
15:33 <@dpeg> felirx: this obsession does not work well with the short lifespans of characters :)
15:33 < felirx> I know :)
15:33 < bhaak> "non random is good" is not a sentence I expected to hear in ##crawl-dev
15:33 < cbus> bhaak, "Determinism is good"
15:33 <@dpeg> bhaak: it is always the question of when/where to apply a principle :)
15:34 < felirx> it took me literally a day to just get past kotor1 chargen
15:34 < scarf> crawl still has startscumming, but it's about getting past the first few levels with most of your gear intact + picking up good stuff
15:35 < scarf> rather than in initial stats
15:35 <@dpeg> felirx: I don't think any Crawl dev is like you, but we still think of players like you :)
15:35 < felirx> the decision is more like "what I want to play today" and not "how can I make the most out of this before I even start playing"
15:35 < syllogism-> felirx: seriously, you should try incursion if you havent
15:35 <@dpeg> scarf: don't think one can abolish that
15:35 <+greensnark> It takes me too long to get past any char-gen with pictures of the character
15:35 < scarf> dpeg: no, neither do I
15:35 < scarf> (I'm ais523, by the way, trying out a new nick)
15:35 <+greensnark> "Why do all the pictures look like things out of nightmare!"
15:35 <@dpeg> ah°
15:36 <@dpeg> I already hated the gender question in Nethack.
15:36 < scarf> it is actually slightly relevant
15:36 < bhaak> greensnark: ASCII only doesn't protect you from that. I've wasted hours finding good-looing fonts for a @
15:37 <@dpeg> scarf: well, if it that's bad, there is always "change
15:37 < scarf> beh, not worth a wish
15:37 < scarf> there's polyself too which is cheaper
15:38 <@dpeg> "female" could be a new background
15:39 < bhaak> and "male" is the default?
15:39 <@dpeg> no!
15:39 <@dpeg> there is no "male" background
15:41 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:49 < bhaak> I don't know that sounds a little bit like sexism: You can be a Fighter, a Paladin, Healer, Crusader, ... or a female
15:50 < scarf> like elves in Hack?
15:51 < bhaak> or orcs in any fantasy setting
15:52 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r57ce023677fd /crawl-ref/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Rename unix background option to background_colour.
15:52 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rbbfb1fdf5058 /crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Finally fix savegame chooser. :D
15:53 < cbus> dpeg, trog is fun
15:53 < cbus> e - the +3,+7 giant spiked club of Kociahac (weapon) {god gift, pierce}
15:56 <@dpeg> cbus: good stuff
15:56 < cbus> dpeg, no
15:56 < cbus> a - the +3,+11 dire flail "Hejaketh" (weapon) {god gift, elec, Dex+2}
15:56 < cbus> thats the good stuff
15:56 < cbus> until I get M&F up 
15:56 < cbus> :D
15:57 < cbus> dpeg, 2 hitted a 7headed hydra (in normal mode, no extra damage modifiers or berserk)
15:57 <@dpeg> no ego?
15:57 < cbus> elec!!
15:57 < cbus> but I meant no +DMG from rings or stuff
15:57 < cbus> and no elec outburst
15:57 < cbus> on that hit
15:57 < cbus> so technically no damage
15:58 <@dpeg> ah!
15:58 < cbus> no ego I mean
15:58 < cbus> sorry, game and telephone makes ircing hard :)
15:58 < cbus> dpeg, the trog gifting nice weapons make trog so much more interesting
16:01 < cbus> dpeg, off to play go in an hour :)
16:01 <@dpeg> very good!
16:03 < CIA-81> greensnark * r569c3326919a /crawl-ref/ (10 files in 4 dirs): shoals_atoll support: FHEIGHT sets heights for map squares, tide_seed property requests that a marker be treated as a source for tide effects.
16:03 < CIA-81> greensnark * r42b8b685763b /crawl-ref/source/prebuilt/ (levcomp.lex.cc levcomp.tab.cc levcomp.tab.h): Update level compiler for FHEIGHT.
16:04 <+greensnark> !tell due shoals_atoll tide machinery is in place, take a look and see if that's what you wanted.
16:04 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
16:04 <@dpeg> greensnark: I foresee beautiful Shoal entry vaults.
16:04 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:08 <+greensnark> I haven't enabled tide effects outside the Shoals yet, but it's just a small change
16:09 <@dpeg> ok
16:09 <+greensnark> Any vault using it will have to be careful not to flood the level though :P
16:09 < scarf> the occasional flooded level could be a fun change of pace
16:10 < scarf> but yes, as the code stands you wouldn't want a level full of deep water
16:11 <+greensnark> Only the Shoals builder uses the heightmap at all, so outside the shoals all squares will be at sea level and the tide will look very boring
16:11 <+greensnark> Unless the vault defines pretty heights
16:11 <@dpeg> yes
16:11 <+greensnark> And uses a border at sufficient height to keep the tide from escaping
16:12 <@dpeg> due should use tides for the volcanoes
16:14 <@elly> YES
16:14 <@elly> argh, I wish I could summon the energy to add this kind of terrain system to angband
16:14 <@dpeg> elly: Angband is your native game?
16:14 < doy> greensnark: so how does the height specification work?
16:15 < syllogism-> maybe add some acid lakes
16:15 <@elly> dpeg: yes
16:15 <@elly> dpeg: the terrain system is a clusterfuck :(
16:15 <+greensnark> doy: It's documented!
16:15 < doy> can you randomize it, or do you have to specify actual heights for each tile?
16:15 < doy> pshh, docs
16:15 <+greensnark> Right now you have to set the height explicitly in maps
16:15 < doy> i suppose that would be not too hard to automate in lua
16:16 <+greensnark> The actual island building and smoothing code can easily be given Lua wrappers
16:16 < doy> also true
16:16 <+greensnark> The Volcano probably needs some custom stuff though
16:16 <+greensnark> Since there are very specific outlines that need to be met
16:17 < doy> yeah
16:19 <@dpeg> !tell due Using the now flexible tides for volcanoes looks like an irresistible idea. Also fits with players sometimes complaining about "not enough action in volcanoes". But: after Trove :)
16:19 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let due know.
16:20 < Napkin> alright, manual savegame tranferer is done \o/
16:20 < Napkin> or rather.. manual automatic ;)
16:20 <@dpeg> Napkin: wasn't it automatic already=
16:20 <@dpeg> ?
16:22 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:23 < Napkin> yes, when you play your char, yes
16:23 < Napkin> but there are zombie-like chars...
16:24 <@dpeg> Napkin: I thought you delete them after a while?
16:24 < Napkin> players create a char and just leave it there not touching it for ages
16:24 < Napkin> I do - but now I need to hurry less
16:24 < Napkin> I can move all chars to the latest available version first and just keep that one longer
16:25 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Keskitalo] by ChanServ
16:25 < Napkin> instead of keeping 6 different version all with 1 char ;)
16:25 < Cryp71c> What would you guys think about mutation potions having different effects on DS? I continue to feel like they aught to operate differently on demonspawn even if the chances of getting good / bad muts is still 50%
16:25 <+Keskitalo> Evenings!
16:25 < Cryp71c> Morning
16:25 < Napkin> Hi Keskitalo!
16:26 < doy> Cryp71c: why?
16:28 < Napkin> because each installed version uses at least 18mb, dpeg 
16:28 < Cryp71c> doy, DS already have a natural affinity for mutations, one could say that its the grotesque nature of their species. not to mention I've seen mut pot mutations that add a rank to a pre-existing DS mutation (which would've filled in later on anyways)
16:28 < doy> Cryp71c: if mutation potions affect ds mutations, that's a bug
16:29 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: so it would be nifty but would there be any gameplay gain?
16:30 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: I read the freedroid report :)
16:30 < Cryp71c> dpeg, I suppose not, unless you changed the % of a good / bad mutation (so that it was > 50%), but that wouldn't be necessary unless everyone agreed that DS were underpowered somewhere in the mid-late game.
16:31 < Cryp71c> Which makes sense to me...but from a neutral standpoint, I can't say DS are particularly weak (up to the point where I've gotten one). My deaths with them have been stupidity and carelessness, not a lack of power.
16:31 < doy> ds are one of the best species already
16:31 < doy> don't think they need any buffs
16:32 < Cryp71c> I'm not sure I would say best...but yeah, certainly not needed to be buffed.
16:32 < doy> well, 'one of'
16:32 < doy> they're certainly up there
16:32 <@dpeg> well, they have obvious problems... but we're trying to address them
16:32 < doy> yeah
16:32 < Cryp71c> IDK, they're very tough to play without a god to support them early on.
16:32 <@dpeg> this is not about making them stronger
16:32 < doy> but the problems are with the mechanics, not with their power level
16:32 < doy> right
16:33 <@dpeg> yes
16:33 < Cryp71c> Be and Ck are easier to play than Fi and Ga
16:33 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: this is true for all species?
16:33 < doy> Cryp71c: that's true of any species
16:33 < scarf> hmm, this reminds me of something I've been trying for fun (rather than serious play) recently; playing SpCK of Lugonu, and seeing how long turn-wise I could survive in the Abyss
16:33 <@dpeg> hehe, sandwiching Cryp71c 
16:33 < Cryp71c> well yeah, but the gap is narrower with a great many other characters
16:33 < syllogism-> scarf: i tried that for a bit, the highest I got was xl 6
16:34 < scarf> syllogism-: xl 8, and several hundred turns
16:34 < Cryp71c> Tr, Md, Centaur, Ho, Ogre, Mi can all stand on their own early on pretty easily
16:34 < Cryp71c> (comparatively0
16:34 < scarf> I think it's entirely plausible that a very lucky player could survive long enough to get the rune
16:34 < syllogism-> well yes
16:34 < syllogism-> !lm * type=rune min=turn
16:34 <@dpeg> scarf: rune could be around the corner :) (after map change)
16:34 < doy> syllogism-: cv>=0.5
16:34 < scarf> dpeg: I thought it didn't generate for immediately
16:34 <@dpeg> map change
16:35 < doy> since the rune generation changed
16:35 < scarf> !lm * type=rune min=turn
16:35 < scarf> ah
16:35 < scarf> one thing that annoys me is, how am I meant to distinguish a rune from water/lava when they're both represented by {
16:35 < doy> it used to be entirely random, now it's a lot less common unless you've been there a while
16:35 < scarf> is it a different colour?
16:35 < Cryp71c> Ctrl + F 'rune' ?
16:36 -!- zenna [n=jannesep@tuomi.oulu.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:36 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: Abyss
16:36 < Cryp71c> ohya, my bad.
16:36 < Henzell> 25212. [2009-03-13] Mayhem the Skirmisher (L1 SpCK) found an abyssal rune of Zot on turn 64. (Abyss)
16:36 < Henzell> 25212. [2009-03-13] Mayhem the Skirmisher (L1 SpCK) found an abyssal rune of Zot on turn 64. (Abyss)
16:36 < syllogism-> you can't get the rune unless you leave the abyss and return though
16:36 < doy> scarf: rune is }
16:36 < scarf> ah
16:36 <@dpeg> Does anyone find blue merfolk annoying?
16:36 < scarf> syllogism-: ooh, didn't know that
16:36 <@dpeg> I have trouble spotting them.
16:37 < scarf> so you'd have to escape then abandon Lugonu
16:37 < Cryp71c> dpeg, a little, but I watch the monster-list and then go looking on the map for the creature
16:37 < syllogism-> scarf: the way to get one early is/was is to leave and immediately abandon lugonu to get banished
16:37 < scarf> yep
16:37 < syllogism-> also that query took forever
16:37 < scarf> I must try that sometime, for when I want high-stakes informal play where I'm almost guaranteed to die instantly
16:38 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@189.27.197.4.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:41 < Napkin> yes, dpeg, me too
16:41 <@dpeg> Napkin: good, will address that before release.
16:41 < Napkin> I thought it's because i use the double "~" as waster symbol
16:42 <@dpeg> Napkin: I think that any blue letter is bad, but "m" and "~" might be particularly troublesome
16:42 < Napkin> pity - because i think it's the perfect glyph for water :)
16:42 <@dpeg> oh sure, we should change the merfolk's colour
16:43 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2510-g42b8b68 (16.1)
16:43 < Napkin> anything option I have to activate to see rob's changes to the message-window?
16:43 < Napkin> *any option
16:43 <@dpeg> no, I don't think so
16:47 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
16:48 < Cryp71c> Sigh, does anyone else think uniques on D:3-5 having wands of draining is not cool?
16:49 < syllogism-> just you
16:49 < eith> nah, its pretty rare
16:49 < Cryp71c> eith, RNG must be out for me then, cause I've seen it like 5x over the past 2 days
16:49 < Cryp71c> terrance especially.
16:49 <+by> ##crawl?
16:50 < Cryp71c> by, no..its potentially a balance issue?
16:50 < Cryp71c> Good lord you guys are heavy on pointing shit to ##crawl when this channel isn't even that spammy
16:50 <+by> it used to be even less spammy
16:50 < eith> it can get messy...
16:51 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Looks like Sami spilled the beans a bit more than I'd have liked, but yeah. The freedroid stuff is pretty good. :)
16:51 < Cryp71c> by, yay for worthless, discussionless channels.
16:51 < Timbermaw> haha.. but cryptic you start lots of characters.. so that would average 1% of games they get drain or something i think
16:51 -!- Cryp71c was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [No whining!]
16:51 <+by> Cryp71c: complaining about uniques with wands is typical useless player whining
16:51 <@dpeg> hah, faster!
16:51 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:51 < Cryp71c> *yawn* -_-
16:52 < Cryp71c> fine fine, I'll sit here, bring up nothing, and let you have your 'less spammy' channel :)
16:52 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@ip102.148.adsl.wplus.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:52 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba] by ChanServ
17:05 <+greensnark> We could make merfolk green
17:06 <+greensnark> Don't know where to put aquamancers though
17:06 <+greensnark> Red merfolk? :)
17:06 < doy> i don't know that it's really an issue
17:06 < doy> i mean, the same thing happens with lava worms, etc
17:06 <+greensnark> True
17:07 <@dpeg> it is an issue
17:07 < doy> we only have a limited number of colors to work with
17:07 < CIA-81> dolorous * r81e587013b29 /crawl-ref/source/goditem.cc: Since abominations are now chaotic, scrolls of summoning should be too.
17:07 <@dpeg> much more water in Shoals than lava
17:07 <@dpeg> anywhere else
17:07 <+greensnark> green/red/magenta/brown available in the non-dangerous colour range
17:07 <+greensnark> Er, green is used by aquamancers
17:07 <@dpeg> white and grey would work too
17:08 <+greensnark> We could move merfolk to grey and javelineers to white, yes
17:08 <@dpeg> yes, I think that's good
17:08 < CIA-81> by * r1f4b2d5d177f /crawl-ref/source/libutil.cc: Fix cgotoxy not handling GOTO_DNGN properly.
17:08 < CIA-81> by * r623638dc03d8 /crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Extract pattern templates to pattern.h.
17:08 <+greensnark> But grey is the master archer uniform :)
17:08 < CIA-81> by * rc7ee5f5347bb /crawl-ref/source/ (66 files): Remove libutil.h from AppHdr.h and include explicitly.
17:08 < CIA-81> by * re0c2efd66885 /crawl-ref/source/ (libutil.cc libutil.h): Add cgetpos() as a region-aware replacement for wherex()/wherey().
17:08 < CIA-81> by * r50af0d3f07e9 /crawl-ref/source/ (libgui.cc libgui.h): Implement cgetpos for tiles.
17:08 < CIA-81> by * ra1bcc86c3c08 /crawl-ref/source/ (cio.cc cio.h): Make line_reader aware of its region.
17:08 < Cryp71c> doy, with regard to the slime creature bug report, would the new flags you were discussing (M_CAN_SWIM_BUT_DOESN'T_LIKE_TO-esque) be used instead of HT_Land or HT_Amphibious or in addition to? (I've re-done my patch to replace HT_AMPHIBIOUS with HT_LAND instead of just removing the former from slime_creature)
17:09 < doy> @??slime creature
17:09 < Gretell> slime creature (J) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 1/4 | Damage: 22 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(44), poison, asphyx | XP: 423.
17:09 -!- by [n=vollmert@a12.imp.fu-berlin.de] has quit ["leaving"]
17:09 < doy> Cryp71c: i'd say that we should let asphyx-resistant monsters move through water at a movement penalty
17:09 <@dpeg> I support that idea of reluctant swimmer. It's a good one.
17:09 <+greensnark> Actually we should just repurpose ht_amphibious_land to reluctant-to-swim
17:09 < doy> and that would just take care of slime creatures on its own
17:09 <@dpeg> doy: oh, then we don't even need a new flag.
17:09 < doy> yeah
17:10 <+greensnark> And disallow ht_amphibious_water from submerging altogether
17:10 <@dpeg> sounds good
17:10 -!- scarf [n=scarf@unaffiliated/ais523] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
17:10 -!- scarf [n=scarf@unaffiliated/ais523] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:10 <@dpeg> I need to make a proposal for monster behaviour vs invisible players.
17:11 < Cryp71c> doy, ok, so would that imply a new HT_ type, or would asphyx resistant creatures still have HT_LAND and have logic elsewhere to facilitate the movement penalty through deep water?
17:12 < doy> Cryp71c: i think keeping them as HT_LAND and having logic elsewhere for asphyx-res stuff would make the most sense
17:12 < doy> but i'm not familiar with the code at all
17:13 <@dpeg> greensnark: do you think you could do the change?
17:15 < doy> also, i think giving statue form asphyx-resistance would be good
17:15 < Cryp71c> So as far as the HT_ (s) go at the moment, ht_amphibious_land is == ht_amphibious_water except water can submerge, and land of course, cannot?
17:16 < Cryp71c> (that's what i took from greensnark's 2 comments on the matter)
17:16 <+greensnark> Cryp71c: That's right
17:16 <+greensnark> Using asphyx for this is problematic because it'll allow demons and undead to swim
17:17 <+greensnark> The problem with res_asphyx() is it's not so much res_asphyx as res_curare
17:19 < Cryp71c> So removing submergability from ht_amphibious_water would prevent merfolk, kraken tentacles, sea snakes, etc. from submerging?
17:19 < Cryp71c> er..
17:19 < Cryp71c> yeah that's not a question considering its obviousness
17:20 <+greensnark> Merfolk cannot submerge anyway now
17:20 <+greensnark> They're special-cased
17:20 <+greensnark> In general submerging monsters produce behaviour that nobody enjoys
17:21 <@dpeg> yes
17:21 <+greensnark> It can only be fixed with AI fixes to submerging
17:23 <@dpeg> greensnark, Cryp71c: seen this one? http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:water_creatures_overhaul
17:24 <@dpeg> a true borsuk
17:25 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: re:invisibility, it looked like the monster can follow you, but if you take a sharp turn (i.e. keep in their melee range), they go to the spot where you previously were, but don't hit you.
17:26 <+Keskitalo> Which is kind of cool, but I suppose makes invisibility somewhat useless. I don't know what the code is saying, so I don't know if it's intentional.
17:26 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: still not good, imo. Think of what happens if a monster goes invisible.
17:26 <+Keskitalo> Oh yeah, it's disparate. (if that's the word)
17:26 <@dpeg> desperate :)
17:39 < Cryp71c> yeah, player invisibility seems like it is highly undervalued, since the monster AI is able to so closely follow you.
17:39 -!- Antagonist [n=Landon@dsl-245-43-80.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined ##crawl-Dev
17:39 < Cryp71c> And yeah, the water creature overhaul seems something to take into account with these changes to slime creature submergability
17:39 < doy> i don't know, i've used invis to escape on several occasions
17:39 < Cryp71c> er...slime creature speed*
17:40 < doy> it's a lot more powerful than people seem to think
17:40 < doy> although not perfect
17:40 <+Keskitalo> I like Borsuk's water creature overhaul.
17:40 <@dpeg> doy: I often advertise invisibility, but only against ranged attackers. Yesterday, it was evidently broken against Snorg. :(
17:40 <+Keskitalo> I went invisible next to Ijyb and he just followed me around. Maybe it works better further away from monsters?
17:41 <@dpeg> doy: and the other use is to boost stealth
17:41 < Cryp71c> Going invisible while already in sight of a monster is where the problem lies, since I've rarely escaped from more than 2-3 monsters if I invis after they've already seen and noticed me.
17:42 < doy> well, i don't know that invis should necessarily just make monsters forget about you
17:42 < Cryp71c> no, certainly not forget, that would be very bad
17:42 < doy> they should be able to guess where you might be based on your previous locations
17:42 < doy> and they should still be able to hear you
17:42 <@dpeg> doy: I didn't say that. But Snorg was following me for many steps, and it was an open room.
17:42 < doy> yeah
17:43 < doy> not saying it's not broken at the moment, just how i think it should work
17:43 < doy> (:
17:43 <@dpeg> yes, this is why it's not trivial to make a proposal
17:43 < doy> it's hard to tell what's actually happening because monster ai is so random
17:43 < doy> need someone familiar with the ai code
17:43 < doy> although not sure if anyone really fits that description
17:43 < doy> (:
17:45 <+Keskitalo> Yeah. :)
17:45 <@dpeg> so clearly, invisible should be really different from confusing the monster 
17:46 < doy> yes
17:46 < doy> the monster should still be trying to attack you
17:46 <@dpeg> it could also run away :)
17:46 < doy> also a possibility
17:46 < doy> (:
17:46 < doy> depends on the monster, probably
17:47 <@dpeg> sure
17:47 < doy> possibly animal and lower intelligence should have a chance of just forgetting you exist
17:47 <@dpeg> that would be wandering
17:47 < doy> yeah
17:47 <@dpeg> I meant actually running away as an option for sentinels
17:47 < doy> intelligent monsters shouldn't just start wandering though
17:47 < doy> yeah, i know, just giving more options
17:50 <+Keskitalo> Invisibility is a lot more expensive than confusion, it seems as well. Mephitic cloud is ridiculously cost-effective.. at least in the earlier game. Invisibility "just makes you glow :P" in comparison. (not an actual quote ;))
17:50 < doy> yes, meph cloud is quite strong early on
17:51 <+Keskitalo> Confusion is a great yardstick/comparison. Another effect it could be compared on is (scrolls of) fog.
17:51 <+Keskitalo> I'd imagine animals might be scared or start wandering when their target dissapears into a smoke cloud. (Gameplay goes first of course.)
17:55 < Cryp71c> greensnark, so the habitat types are just constants used that are checked in the logic (upon which different action is executed) (such as submergability, etc.)
18:03 < doy> so what do people think about Siber's idea here? http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:experimental_skill_pool_changes
18:04 < doy> are there any obvious downsides that i'm not seeing?
18:05 < scarf> which idea is Siber's?
18:05 < doy> the one with "Siber:" in front of it
18:05 < Cryp71c> What is 'victory dancing' ?
18:05 <@dpeg> Jesus
18:05 < scarf> it seems to make victory dancing proactive instead
18:05 < doy> Cryp71c: repeatedly doing some pointless action (casting a spell at a wall, etc) to train skills
18:06 < doy> after killing something
18:06 < scarf> as in, now you dance before killing the monster, rather than afterwards
18:06 < doy> scarf: possible
18:06 <@dpeg> scarf: well, it depends on how long the memory is
18:06 <@dpeg> if it is very long...
18:06 < scarf> I know that before learning better, I always assumed that you only transferred experience if a skill actually transferred something
18:06 < doy> yeah
18:06 < scarf> dpeg: then you're still victory dancing beforehand, just you have more time to do it
18:06 < scarf> *a skill actually accomplished something
18:06 <+Keskitalo> scarf: Like at the start of the game?
18:06 < scarf> so, instead of dancing by casting spells at walls, you had to cast them at monsters, etc
18:06 < doy> scarf: if by "very long" means "on the order of 10k turns or so"
18:07 < scarf> doy: then you can dance whenever you feel like it
18:07 < scarf> want to get some T&D? untrap now, gain exp later!
18:07 < Cryp71c> doy, I do see some potential problems
18:08 < Cryp71c> say for example (at a fairly low level) I see a unique (Sigmund) and I know I can kill him (cause I'm an awesome zerker) but I wand him to yellow as he walks towards me.
18:08 < Cryp71c> Then I zerk and 1 shot him.
18:08 <@dpeg> scarf: that (wrt T&D) is still better than the current situation where you have to make sure that there's xp in the pool
18:08 < scarf> yes, I think it's an improvement
18:08 < scarf> it's annoying not being able to victory-dance-equivalent early due to the nearly empty pool
18:08 < doy> yes
18:08 < doy> very much so
18:08 < scarf> as in, suppose I want to train slings, it's pointless to use my inferior sling skill over my superior axe skill just because my pool is empty
18:09 < doy> it also makes things like ogres ridiculously overvalued
18:09 < doy> at low levels
18:09 < doy> because they actually give you pool xp
18:09 <@dpeg> also, I believe that the amount of "exercising" should actually depend on what goes on
18:09 <@dpeg> no exercising Armour by standing among rats, no exercising of Con by doing no damage
18:09 < scarf> hmm, Siber's suggestion is rather like a converse suggestion of what we have now
18:09 < scarf> atm, exp goes into an exp pool, and from there into the skills when you train them
18:10 < Siber> It is indeed
18:10 < doy> scarf: in a way, but i think it's a much more logical method
18:10 < doy> and less easy to game
18:10 <@dpeg> I like about Siber's proposal that we can get rid of the Pool line in the HUD.
18:10 < doy> assuming things are adjusted properly
18:10 < Cryp71c> xp pooling is just tough to work with, it always will result in victory dancing..if that's what we want to get away from, perhaps we need to look at a more realistic overhaul of xp?
18:10 < doy> yes
18:10 < doy> that too
18:10 < scarf> the Siber suggestion makes skill training go into a skill pool, and from there into the skills when you gain exp
18:10 < scarf> I strongly agree with the dpeg plan of making exercising care about what happens, though
18:10 <@dpeg> but there is the problem that not all skills can be made scum-proof.
18:10 < doy> yeah
18:10 < doy> i'm not sure if it's really worth it
18:11 < doy> except in really obvious cases
18:11 <@dpeg> I think it is.
18:11 <@dpeg> definitely for Armour and Dodging
18:11 < scarf> perhaps, all actions that are "useful" for the character gain exp (e.g. you get a few exp points for beating a trap, like you do in D&D)
18:11 < doy> sure
18:11 < scarf> and only actions that gain you experience are eligible for skill exercise
18:11 < doy> but then, if the only way you can train armour is by fighting dragons and such
18:11 < scarf> that might be too radical a change, then
18:11 < doy> well
18:11 < scarf> *though
18:11 < doy> there are only a limited number of those
18:11 < doy> scarf: that's a more radical change
18:12 < scarf> doy: training armour would presumably count on how many hp of damage your armour blocked
18:12 <@dpeg> doy: well, simply compare monster difficulty vs player (Armour skill, say)
18:12 <@dpeg> as long as the monster can damage you, you can train Armour
18:12 < doy> dpeg: but my point is that it'll make getting to armour 27 significantly harder
18:12 < Cryp71c> doy, yeah I would <3 seeing armour trained when a) your armour impedes an attack or b) your armour prevents dmg
18:12 < doy> because there are fewer strong monsters
18:12 <@dpeg> doy: depends on the numbers
18:12 < doy> sure
18:12 <@dpeg> Armour training should be faster anyway (for 0.6)
18:12 < Cryp71c> Instead of standing around
18:12 < Siber> I think anything where progression is based on skill use will see some form of 'practice' as an option as a natural consequence. My suggestion still allows it, but I think makes it less jarring and eliminates a certain need to practice to get what you want
18:13 < doy> Siber: i agree
18:13 < scarf> I like the suggestion just because it means that practice is useful when your exp pool is empty
18:13 < doy> scarf: i agree
18:13 < doy> (:
18:13 < Siber> As a caster I find a strong need to victory dance with certain skills that would otherwise get little EXP, my system is meant to aleviate that
18:13 < scarf> I described victory dancing in #nethack as victory, dance, victory, dance, etc
18:13 < scarf> it works a lot better if there's no correlation between the timing of the dance and the victory
18:13 < Siber> Exactly.
18:14 <@dpeg> so it's a good idea, but not for 0.6 :)
18:14 < Cryp71c> Stealth training seems very strange to me as well, it seems that walking aroudn sleeping (or distracted) creatures trains stealth only sometimes
18:14 < doy> i suppose
18:14 < doy> (:
18:14 <@dpeg> Siber: advertise it when we discuss the 0.7 agenda, please
18:14 < scarf> stealth training I don't really get at all
18:15 < doy> Cryp71c: well, everything gets trained only sometimes
18:15  * Siber gets all warm and tingly!
18:15 < Siber> Definitely
18:15 < scarf> every now and then you see your stealth skill got bumped, and you have no idea why
18:15 < scarf> it's almost as if a full exp pool gives you detect monsters simply by looking at the points going into stealth
18:15 < doy> scarf: yes, there have been a lot of weird tweaks to stealth (and armour) just because they train so slowly otherwise
18:15 < Cryp71c> doy, actually, it *feels* like only armour and stealth are trained sometimes (and fighting, to a lesser extent) whereas everything else is trained when you use it.
18:15 < doy> no, you train stealth by just walking around normally
18:15 < doy> even if there are no monsters
18:15 < doy> just really slowly
18:15 < Cryp71c> ahh
18:15 < doy> trains faster if there are sleeping monsters around
18:16 < doy> "around" meaning "in los"
18:18 < doy> part of the issue too is that only some skills are able to be victory danced
18:18 <@dpeg> yes
18:18 < doy> like... you can cast spells at a wall, but you have to train axes by actually fighting monsters
18:18 <@dpeg> which is why the whole thing needs thoughts
18:18 < doy> and this would remain a problem with the new system
18:18 < scarf> spells should have to hit monsters to count, I thought they did already
18:19 <@dpeg> con spells are unproblematic
18:19 <@dpeg> but what about summons?
18:19 < scarf> part of the issue is with self-target spells
18:19 <@dpeg> (I can still solve that: train when *they* kill)
18:19 < doy> dpeg: that seems really odd though
18:19 <@dpeg> scarf: train when the buff is actually used
18:19 <@dpeg> doy: not sure
18:19 < doy> it might solve the issue sort of, but would feel really unintuitive
18:19 < scarf> dpeg: ouch, that's hard to determine
18:19 <@dpeg> or train when they do damage
18:19 < scarf> swiftness, for instance
18:19 < doy> scarf: not really
18:19 < scarf> how can you figure out when that's being used and when it isn't?
18:19 < doy> scarf: we track it already anyway
18:20 < doy> scarf: he means for summons
18:20 < doy> not self-targeted spells
18:20 <@dpeg> but yes, as I said before, there are obstacles
18:20 < scarf> ah, I'm talking about self-targets
18:20 < scarf> maybe they only give you exercise during periods of tension
18:20 <@dpeg> you could say that something which cannot be checked shouldn't be a spell (I am serious here)
18:21 < doy> dpeg: that would basically mean eliminating most of enchantments
18:21 < doy> i don't think spells should have to be offensive
18:21 < doy> that seems overly restrictive
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18:22 < scarf> there should be some way to check most spells, if only approximately
18:23 < scarf> say, swiftness if you use it to open up distance from something that would beat you in melee
18:23 <@dpeg> doy: well, the haste spell is problematic anyway
18:23 < doy> scarf: that's really getting pretty vague and difficult though
18:23 < scarf> yes
18:24 < doy> dpeg: i suppose
18:24 < doy> but levitation, berserk, various brands, blink, ...
18:24 < scarf> and just because haste is problematic doesn't mean that, say, minor buffs are
18:24 < doy> right
18:25 <@dpeg> the conceptual solution is probably to make sure that (a) total xp is limited and (b) all skills are attractive
18:25 < Cryp71c> What if, instead of keeping track of the last xxxx actions you made (for xp distribution) you incremented each skill when its used, and then set a global decay rate on these skill trackers
18:25 <@dpeg> and that indirect skills train fast enough on their own, if enabled
18:25 < doy> Cryp71c: yes, that was my thought for the implementation
18:25 < Cryp71c> Then distribute xp based on the ratio of a given skill value to the total of all skill values
18:26 < Cryp71c> doy, ah, must've missed it
18:26 < doy> Cryp71c: well, i didn't actually say it, but
18:26 < doy> (:
18:26 < doy> it's how i was envisioning it working anyway
18:26 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: that makes it very hard to learn a new skill late in the game (Siber's proposal might have the same issue)
18:26 < doy> dpeg: depends on the decay rate
18:27 < Twinge_> Exp decay seems like something most players would not find fun
18:27 < doy> Twinge_: not exp decay
18:27 < Cryp71c> Not xp decay
18:27 <@dpeg> I don't see why actual skill levels should matter. What you have done in the last x turns should matter, nothing else.
18:27 < Cryp71c> skill use decay rate
18:27 < doy> dpeg: actual skill levels shouldn't matter
18:27 < Cryp71c> dpeg, i agree
18:27 < Twinge_> Oh, hmm
18:27 < Cryp71c> which makes the implementation all that much easier
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18:27 <@dpeg> 18:25 < Cryp71c> Then distribute xp based on the ratio of a given skill value  to the total of all skill values
18:27 < doy> dpeg: skill values != skill levels
18:28 <@dpeg> ah
18:28 < doy> each skill has an associated arbitrary value
18:28 < doy> which is incremented each time it's used
18:28 <@dpeg> the exercise value, right
18:28 < Cryp71c> 'skill value' is the value representing a skill's "use"
18:28 < Cryp71c> Yes
18:28 < doy> and every so often, all exercise values get multiplied by .99 or something
18:28 <@dpeg> could also reduce exercise values when actual xp is given to that skill
18:29 <@dpeg> this makes it a bit more fair, perhaps
18:29 < doy> yeah, that could work too
18:29 < Cryp71c> doy, might need to also do a flat subtraction too, since by the end game you could be (conceptually) distributing xp into everything since multiplying by .99 would never make a value 0
18:29 < doy> that's how nemelex deck distribution works, actually
18:29 <@dpeg> yes
18:29 < doy> and i think that's a good model
18:29 < Cryp71c> dpeg, that sounds like a good idea
18:29 <@dpeg> Haran will be proud of you :)
18:30 <@dpeg> but we should sort this out for 0.7
18:30 -!- Eronarn_ is now known as Eronarn
18:30 <@dpeg> I think it's a basic flaw we can correct
18:30 < doy> each sacrifice of a specific item type increases the value for that deck type, and each deck gift reduces the value by some amount
18:30 < doy> yeah
18:30 < doy> should go in early for 0.7, probably
18:30 <@dpeg> yes
18:30 < doy> since it'll likely need a lot of tweaking
18:30 <@dpeg> as early as the AC nerf :P
18:30 < doy> hehe
18:30 < Cryp71c> hrm, I seem to have lost greensnark after we got onto the xp pool
18:30 < doy> this should be easier to code, i would think
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18:37 <@dpeg> doy: well, if you can come up with a model, add it to the wiki page
18:37 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: I think it's an unusual time for him anyway
18:37 <@dpeg> he should be sleeping or so
18:37 < doy> dpeg: just did
18:37 < Siber> wwerg,,n,j.k.ktuihjughjygjyuyhhhthgytjytkyjhy
18:38 <@dpeg> Siber: yes!
18:38 <@dpeg> keep it coming :)
18:39 < Siber> Sorry bout that, 3 year old got the keys
18:40  * by fixing tiles compile now
18:42 <+Keskitalo> <3
18:43 <@dpeg> Siber: what the name?
18:43 < CIA-81> by * rd7a36ae66889 /crawl-ref/source/ (colour.cc tilepick.cc tilesdl.cc): Fix tiles compile completing the libutil.h change.
18:43 <@dpeg> by: you can compile and test tiles now?
18:44 <+by> I can compile tiles on my notebook
18:44 <+by> I can't debug it properly unfortunately
18:47 <@dpeg> by: great effort, though
18:47 <@dpeg> acting responsible and taking care of tiles
18:47 <@dpeg> not like some other developers :)
18:48 < Siber> THE NAME?
18:48 < Siber> Oh hey caps
18:48 <@dpeg> Siber: yes, of your child
18:48 < Siber> Neice. Fiona
18:49 <@dpeg> ah
18:49 <+by> I've broken tiles regularly...
18:49 <@dpeg> by, a legendary breaker of tiles
18:50 <+by> greensnark: re submerging, what do you think of just putting a flat one_chance_in(3) in with the submerging condition?
18:51 < Timbermaw> question: shouldn't stalkers be a recommended class for vamps? assassins are and vamps aren't great with ranged weps
18:53 < doy> !apt vp
18:53 < Henzell> Vp: Air=100, Armour=140, Axes=110, Bows=140, Conj=160, Xbows=140, Darts=140, Div=120, Dodge=90, Earth=120, Ench=90, Evo=90, Exp=150, Fighting=110, Fire=140, Ice=100, Inv=120*, Long=100, Maces=140, Nec=90, Poison=120, Polearms=110, Shields=110, Short=90, Slings=140, Splcast=130, Stab=90, Staves=140, Stealth=50, Summ=100, Throw=140*, Tloc=140, Tmut=90, Traps=100, Unarmed=90
18:53 <+by> maybe it's their bad conj aptitude?
18:53 < doy> conj and pois
18:53 < doy> stalkers are basically a cross between assassin and venom mage
18:54 < doy> vamps are really only good at the assassin part
18:54 < Timbermaw> mhm well ok
18:54 <+by> if you see them as part enchanter, it's more of a vampire role
18:55 <+by> ??book of stalking
18:55 < Henzell> book of stalking[1/1]: Spells: sting, sure blade, projected noise, mephitic cloud, poison weapon, petrify, invisibility.
18:55 <+by> more ench than conj in there
18:56 < Timbermaw> right i just thought spellcasting would be better than a blowgun
18:58 < Cryp71c> doy, dpeg, so can I implement the 'HT_AMPHIBIOUS_WATER' can no longer submerge and 'HT_AMPHIBIOUS_LAND' should no longer get a speed bonus on water idea that was discussed earlier by ..someone?
18:58 <@dpeg> by: did you see the link about submergers?
18:58 < doy> Cryp71c: i'm not sure if we actually came to a consensus yet
18:58 < Cryp71c> doy, ok, although its related to the water creatures overhaul, they're obviously different issues so I wanted to make sure.
18:59 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: no, needs discussion
18:59 <+by> dpeg: not sure; I just read the last part of the log
18:59 <@dpeg> not sure what next
18:59 < doy> Cryp71c: i'd like it to be tied more into 'breathing vs non-breathing', but as greensnark pointed out, we use asphyx-res to mean "curare-res", so just using that won't work directly
18:59 < doy> we should get that straightened out first
18:59 <@dpeg> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:water_creatures_overhaul
19:00 <+by> Timbermaw: Vp are probably no worse stalkers than say Kenku; feel free to FR them to be unrestricted; don't feel strongly either way
19:00 < Cryp71c> dpeg, yeah we read that earlier and they seem similar, but aren't overlapping issues.
19:00 < Cryp71c> s/we/i
19:00 <@dpeg> well, whenever is working on changing submerging, should also think about the big picture
19:00 <@dpeg> words missing :)
19:00 < doy> yeah, i'd like the amphibiousness stuff to be able to go in before the total water creature overhaul
19:01 < doy> the overhaul should probably be 0.7 anyway
19:01 < Cryp71c> doy, perhaps replacing asphyx-res with curare-res and actually have asphyx-res mean asphyx-res? ?
19:01 < doy> Cryp71c: right, but that requires discussion
19:01 < Cryp71c> right
19:02 < Cryp71c> Should all of this info (the HT_AMPHIBIOUS_xxxx discussion) be added to the water creatures overhaul, or is there a more generic location to put all that information?
19:02 < Cryp71c> Or would you guys prefer to keep the discussion in IRC?
19:02 < doy> just add another section to the water creatures overhaul page
19:03 -!- henryci [n=henry@c-71-232-165-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
19:03 < doy> ===== Amphibiousness =====
19:03 -!- henryci [n=henry@c-71-232-165-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:03 < doy> or so
19:03 <@dpeg> doy: could you set up a mail to c-r-d about the short-term plan for water creatures? I've lost sight...
19:03 <@dpeg> henryci: !!!
19:03 <@dpeg> Hi
19:03 < doy> dpeg: i'll see what i can do
19:04 <@dpeg> thanks
19:05 < Cryp71c> this may be vain-sounding, but can I request to have the username on my mantis/wiki account changed?
19:06 <@dpeg> by: the message area uses all lines again?
19:06 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: will do
19:06 < Cryp71c> dpeg, Cryptic instead of Cryp71c if you would't mind.
19:06 <+by> dpeg: I don't know, give it a try? I never understood exactly what issue you were having
19:09 < Napkin> learndb about "conjure flame": Fun fact: Hasted enemies get burned twice as much!
19:09 < Napkin> is that still true? :-O
19:10 < doy> that might have been fixed?
19:10 < doy> i know greensnark redid a bunch of speed-related things a few months ago
19:11 < Napkin> same could be true for sticky flame too, huh? if at all still
19:12 < doy> yeah, that used to also be true for sticky flame
19:12 < doy> not sure if it still is
19:12 < Napkin> I'll try to keep an eye on that
19:13 <+by> doy: I think that was pointless/caotto
19:13 <@dpeg> by: issue with what?
19:13 <+by> message area using all lines
19:14 <@dpeg> by: yes, I just played it. Now it has all lines. The issue was that so many targeting prompts (and others) would require --more--
19:14 < Napkin> <3 the fact that the message window is no longer clearing on various actions!
19:14 <@dpeg> yes
19:14 < Napkin> but the "-" at the bottom is confusing
19:14 < Napkin> used differently than before now
19:14 <+by> dpeg: oh, --more-- prompts are just disabled with delayed messaging currently
19:15 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: you're now update Cryptic. Okay?
19:15 <+by> Napkin: it's turn based instead of mesclr based now, as doy suggested
19:15 < Napkin> but
19:15 <@dpeg> *updater
19:15 < Napkin> i think it's not consequent yet - it's missing when you step on items
19:15 < Cryp71c> dpeg, thanks a ton
19:15 < doy> yes, i found the old behavior pretty confusing
19:15 < doy> i should see what the new stuff looks like
19:15 < doy> haven't had a lot of time lately
19:15 < Napkin> the old was simple, to be honest
19:15 <+by> Napkin: it's not clear to me how exactly it should work
19:16 <+by> I considered seeing the single '-' as a prompt, but doy had some good argument against that
19:16 < doy> Napkin: the issue with the old behavior was that you could take a turn, and have no -, and then do something like walk into a wall, which has no effect whatsoever, and then have a -
19:16 < doy> which makes the - pretty meaningless
19:16 < Napkin> i like the old way of when to show it: something happened in exactly the last turn - don't show it. if you move on and in ancient style there was no message - show it.
19:17 < doy> Napkin: yes, i agree with that, as long as it actually counts by 'turns', not 'keypresses'
19:17 <+by> re sticky flame duration, 2cc88f probably handles it
19:18 < Napkin> well, i don't think the "turn" is so important. the "action" (including keypresses) is the important thing.
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19:18 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r7704e93a01eb /crawl-ref/docs/develop/release.txt: Add a bit about updating the PDFs.
19:18 < doy> Napkin: why?
19:18 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: oh, nice
19:19 < Napkin> isn't the problem that people can't differentiate between what happened "now" and what happened "last turn" since we turned of clear_message?
19:19 < doy> Napkin: yes
19:19 < doy> and that's my point
19:19 < Napkin> *turned off
19:19 < doy> if you can walk into a wall and get a -
19:19 < doy> then that's not differentiating between "now" and "last turn"
19:19 < Napkin> that's ok
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19:19 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: jpeg's mail kinda brought that up :)
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19:20 < Napkin> ok, then let me rephrase:
19:20 < Napkin> isn't the problem that people can't differentiate between what happened "now" and what happened "last action" since we turned of clear_message?
19:20 < doy> Napkin: no, "last turn" was the actual issue
19:20 < Napkin> what good does that do to the usability?
19:21 < Ashenzari> Being invisible is broken (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=486) by dpeg
19:22 < Napkin> while separating between actions, makes it clear the "last action" is over
19:22 < Napkin> anyways, you decide that, not me
19:23 < doy> well, the other option, like by_ said, would be to use the - as a sort of 'prompt' indicator
19:23 <@dpeg> I still think that consecutive turns without anything happen should get additional dashes
19:23 < doy> which would solve that issue
19:23 <@dpeg> would be very useful for disrobing or searches
19:23 < doy> but that wastes a line in the message area a lot more
19:23 < doy> and those lines are pretty precious
19:23 < doy> dpeg: yes, that's another reasonable idea
19:23 <@dpeg> doy: well, if something happens, that line should be re-used
19:24 <@dpeg> it is just like a "progress meter"
19:24 <@dpeg> actual content takes precedence
19:24 < doy> dpeg: right, but if - means "prompt", then it should always be there when crawl is waiting for input
19:24 <@dpeg> I think by didn't like it :)
19:24 <@dpeg> doy: could be like this:
19:24 < doy> which means that line can't be used by messages
19:24 <@dpeg> -    awaits prompt
19:24 <@dpeg> - -  one turn nothing happened
19:24 <@dpeg> - --
19:24 <@dpeg> - ---
19:25 <@dpeg> etc
19:25 <@dpeg> - You miss.
19:25 < Napkin> that would make auto-explore extremely spammy
19:25 <@dpeg> it would be just one line
19:25 < doy> well
19:25 < Napkin> and not help about readablilty at all
19:25 < doy> we'd limit it
19:25 < doy> there would be a max number of - to add
19:25 < Napkin> and.. ugly ;)
19:26 <@dpeg> Napkin: do you see the advantage when searching?
19:26 < doy> anything that happened more than like 50 turns ago isn't really relevant anyway
19:26 <@dpeg> you are using personal words to downplay the idea
19:26 < doy> the amount of time taken isn't really relevant, i mean
19:26 <@dpeg> doy: no, but indicating that you did press 5 would be very useful
19:26 <@dpeg> for me, and last time I asked, also for some others
19:27 <@dpeg> and it would teach players without words how long it takes to disrobe plate
19:27 < doy> dpeg: right, i just mean that we could just cap it at the terminal width
19:27 <@dpeg> doy: of course we do!
19:27 < doy> and that wouldn't lose any important information
19:27 <@dpeg> if we get fance, we reduce the long --------------- from the other end :)
19:27 <@dpeg> yes
19:28 < Napkin> you mean "spammy" and "ugly" as "personal words"? well, I could say "it will output a lot of superflouous glyphs, which I don't see the use for" and "personally I think it will not look nice".
19:28 <@dpeg> 19:25 < Napkin> that would make auto-explore extremely spammy
19:29 < Napkin> and no, i don't see the advantage when searching
19:29 <@dpeg> 19:25 < Napkin> and not help about readablilty at all
19:29 <@dpeg> 19:25 < Napkin> and.. ugly ;)
19:29 < doy> i think we should wait on this discussion until we have a couple implementations
19:29 < doy> that we can actually try out
19:29 <@dpeg> I use to lose a lot of turns and food from pressing 5 accidentally or twice
19:29 < doy> this theoretical talk about what it might look like isn't helpful
19:30 <@dpeg> agreed
19:31 < Napkin> yes - that's what I said - was it taken in an attacking way?
19:32 <@dpeg> yes, it was!
19:32 < Napkin> ok, i'll shut up then. sorry
19:32 < Napkin> not my intention.
19:32 < Napkin> o/
19:32 <@dpeg> no sweat -- it's just that I cannot kick you :)
19:33 <@dpeg> syllogism-: would you upload armour.ods to the wiki -- it is awesome!
19:35 <@dpeg> !tell syllogism- Would you upload armour.ods to the wiki? It is awesome!
19:35 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let syllogism- know.
19:36 <+greensnark> Wow, that's a lot of scrollback in a short time
19:36 <+greensnark> doy: I think pointless made the speed fixes a wile back
19:36 <+greensnark> *while
19:36 < doy> ah, guess i was misremembering
19:37 <+greensnark> And yes, once we split res_asphyx and res_curare life becomes simpler for water movement checks
19:37 <+greensnark> It'll also reduce the special cases in monster drowning code
19:37 <@dpeg> greensnark: is that a quick fix or should we make a note somewhere?
19:38 <+greensnark> A tracker item, ideally, I've been hit by a squall of work :)
19:38 <+greensnark> And apparently I have to learn Android programming in a hurry :P
19:40 < Cryp71c> Well there are only a handful of places res_asphyx is used, I can take a look at the function definition, look through each use of it and determine (in each case) if the intended use was res_asphyx or res_curare and make the appropriate substitution (after I turn res_asphyx into res_curare and then actually implement a real res_asphyx)
19:40 < Cryp71c> It doesn't look to be very time-consuming.
19:40 <@dpeg> greensnark: Android programming -- paid to code Crawl? :)
19:40 <+greensnark> Still need a tracker item
19:40 <+greensnark> dpeg: Unfortunately no :P
19:40 <@dpeg> ok, someone who followed the asphyx debate -- could you open a Mantis item?
19:43 <@dpeg> !tell syllogism- Alternatively, you (or I) could also send it around on c-r-d.
19:43 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let syllogism- know.
19:45 < Cryp71c> dpeg, yeppers I'll do it, this is about res_asphx actually being res_curare and the need for a real res_asphyx ?
19:45 <@dpeg> I think so. If I fully knew, I'd do it myself :)
19:45 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: thanks
19:46 < Cryp71c> Related to the HT_AMBHIBIOUS discussion earlier, I've already written a short snippet (and tested it) which prevents HT_AMPHIBIOUS_LAND from submerging, can I stick that on the wiki under the === AMPHIBIOUS === discussion I'm writing up, or ...what's the best place to put it?
19:46 < doy> res_asphyx should imply res_curare
19:46 < doy> for the curare bonus damage
19:47 <+greensnark> Right
19:47 <+greensnark> I think res asphyx is neatly covered by the monster flag
19:47 <+greensnark> So res_curare is res_asphyx + demons / whatever
19:48 < Cryp71c> oh, well then that change is very small
19:48 < doy> res_asphyx + abnormal_blood
19:48 < doy> (:
19:48 < doy> Cryp71c: it'll still involve deciding which monsters should now get asphyx-res
19:49 < Cryp71c> doy, ..I thought that flag was accurate already?
19:49 < doy> Cryp71c: no, it includes things like demons
19:49 < doy> which is the issue
19:49 <+greensnark> The monster flag doesn't include demons
19:49 < doy> oh
19:49 <+greensnark> But the res_asphyx function does
19:49 <@dpeg> doy: no_blood is part of abnormal_blood?
19:49 < doy> ah, okay
19:49 <+greensnark> I don't know if only the right monsters get the flag, though
19:50 < doy> dpeg: sounds reasonable
19:50 < doy> things with no blood shouldn't be affected by any poisons
19:50 <+greensnark> That flag dates back to 0.1 when 90% of the changes made were under the influence of alcohol
19:50 < doy> except possibly powerful magical ones
19:50 < doy> heh
19:50 <@dpeg> greensnark: I don't like to read that :)
19:50 < Cryp71c> so should demons have the asphyx-res flag and there should be no special case code in res_asphx, or they shouldn't have asphyx-res flag and the special case code should remain?
19:50 < Cryp71c> and of course by res_asphyx I mean res_curare
19:50 < Cryp71c> I think...
19:50 < doy> Cryp71c: demons shouldn't be asphyx-res
19:51 <@dpeg> doy: but curare_res
19:51 <@dpeg> ?
19:51 < doy> there should be a res_curare function which checks the asphyx_res flag
19:51 < doy> among other things
19:51 <+greensnark> Some demons can be poisoned, maybe those should be affected by curare
19:51 < doy> dpeg: yes
19:51 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: are you editing the water monster page?
19:51 < doy> greensnark: sounds reasonable
19:51 <+greensnark> Curare is a mess, really :P
19:51 <+greensnark> Not surprising, it was added in 0.1 :P
19:51 < Cryp71c> dpeg, yes I'm nearly finished, i had a question before about where I should stick this snippet of code I've written
19:51 <@dpeg> greensnark: were you still studying at that time?
19:52 <+greensnark> dpeg: Hah, no
19:52 <+greensnark> But I was at a job where we could finish off our work for a release in 1/7th the allotted time
19:52 <@dpeg> and you spent the rest guzzling away?
19:52 <+greensnark> And every day past that involved everyone from the manager down going to lunch and getting pleasantly sloshed :P
19:53 <+greensnark> And then I'd come back and hack Crawl :P
19:53 < Cryp71c> doy, right so res_asphyx (which currently has the code to check demons and such) should become res_curare (which should then be modified to only provide asphyx immunity if they are also poison immune)
19:53 <@dpeg> wrong order, Darshan, wrong order!
19:53 < doy> Cryp71c: poison immune or asphyx-resistant
19:53 < doy> but yeah
19:54 < Cryp71c> greensnark, after our discussion earlier regarding the habitat types, submerging, and speed boosts, I wrote a brief snippet which prevents HT_AMPHIBIOUS_LAND from submerging (as per your suggestion), where should I stick it? the Wiki (I have an appropriate place for it)?
19:55 < Cryp71c> doy, ah so demons which are poison immune should return true on res_curare() ?
19:55 <+greensnark> Cryp71c: ht_amphibious_land can already not submerge
19:55 < Cryp71c> greensnark, er, ht_amphibious_water
19:55 <+greensnark> ht_amphibious_water can submerge, but it's not agreed that this should be disabled
19:55 <+greensnark> It might be better to fix submerge AI instead
19:55 < doy> Cryp71c: yes
19:55 < doy> i think
19:56 <+greensnark> My suggestion was aimed at using amphibious_land to indicate that the monster does not get a speed boost in water, but that's probably better handled with res_asphyx
19:56 <+greensnark> So probably best not to poke the amphib. behaviour now
19:57 < Cryp71c> greensnark, well this seems more an issue of core behavior for the habitats than writing special cases in AI...if there are some creatures which are HT_AMPHIBIOUS_WATER but should still be able to submerge, perhaps a 3rd AMPHIBIOUS HT is necessary?
19:57 <+greensnark> Nono :P
19:57 < Cryp71c> lol, k
19:57 <+greensnark> Too many amphibious HT already :)
19:57 < Cryp71c> only 2?
19:57 <+greensnark> Yeah, that's one too many :)
19:57 < Cryp71c> lol
19:57 < doy> there should be one for "native to water" and one for "can swim, sort of"
19:57 < Cryp71c> I was rather surprised at how few HTs there are
19:57 < doy> that's all we need
19:58 -!- by_ [n=rob@g225120070.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
19:58 < doy> then the rest can be covered under asphyx res
19:58 < Cryp71c> I think its pretty well simplified as it is...a bit more complexity wouldn't automatically be bad.
19:58 < doy> we don't need anything more than that
19:58 < Cryp71c> but I understand
19:58 <@dpeg> "Good day, Sir, would you like to buy some of these nice HT flags?" "Bugger off, I have enough. Grrr!"
20:00 <+greensnark> Oh yeah, one diff between the two ht_amphib flags is that ht_amphibious_water gets to use watery terrain to its advantage
20:00 <+greensnark> ht_amphibious_land does not
20:02 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, that's a good distinction, which should stay.
20:04 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@169.236.122.209] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:06 < Ashenzari> res_asphyx() to become res_curare() (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=487) by Cryptic
20:07 <@dpeg> doy: as it happens, Lemuel added his take on the victory dancing wiki yesterday
20:07 < doy> dpeg: by 'yesterday' you mean 'within the last few hours'
20:08 <@dpeg> hm, perhaps :)
20:08 <@dpeg> doy: but I like the thing we had here much better
20:09 < doy> hmmm
20:09 < doy> yeah, i'm not sure
20:09 < doy> i mean, it does handle the victory dancing issue better
20:09 < doy> but i'm not sure if the result overall is any better
20:09 < doy> seems like it would require more tweaking in any case
20:10 <@dpeg> doy: for example, our approach gets rid of the pool completely
20:10 <@dpeg> that is worth a lot
20:11 < Cryp71c> dpeg, are you referring to skill use values and distributing xp based on the ratios of those?
20:11 < doy> yes, that too
20:12 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: I would phrase it completely differently, but I think yes
20:12 < Cryp71c> btw, if you havn't noticed already, I'm done editing the water overhaul wiki page, if you needed to get onto it.
20:12 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: already did
20:12 < Cryp71c> dpeg, yeah..i'm at a lack for better terminology
20:12 < Cryp71c> k
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20:16 < syllogism-> seems like it would be really difficult to get right
20:16 < Henzell> syllogism-: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
20:17 <@dpeg> syllogism-: I don't think it is so bad... training is far from ideal right now.
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20:21 < syllogism-> dpeg: I don't think I can upload things to the wiki
20:22 < Napkin> by?
20:23 < Napkin> this is what's confusing me:
20:23 < Napkin> -You hit the kobold.
20:23 < Napkin>  You kill the kobold!
20:23 < Napkin> -
20:23 < Napkin> **************************
20:23 < Napkin> I killed the kobold, did no action afterwards, and the "-" is shown
20:24 < Napkin> then I step onto the kobold corpse and see this without "-":
20:24 < Napkin> -Items here: % )
20:24 < Napkin>  a club
20:24 < Napkin>  a kobold corpse
20:24 < Napkin> **************************
20:24 < doy> hmmm, yeah, the - probably shouldn't be shown there
20:25 <@dpeg> syllogism-: is it okay if I send it to the list?
20:25 < doy> once a turn goes by, it should then add a - on its own line, and then add an additional one for each turn with no messages (up to a max of the term width)
20:25 < syllogism-> i made a bit updated version so I could send you that one first
20:26 <@dpeg> yes, please
20:26 < Napkin> should "Updater" be allowed to upload?
20:26 <@dpeg> syllogism-: btw, is "Max AC New" the effective AC?
20:26 <@dpeg> or with enchantment?
20:26 < syllogism-> it's with max enchantments
20:26 < Napkin> single click to allow it
20:26 <@dpeg> Napkin: yes, perhaps
20:27 < Napkin> done.
20:27 < Cryp71c> When you guys say 'glyph' are you referring to symbol (and color of that symbol) used to depict that monster?
20:28 < doy> yes
20:28 < doy> a glyph is the visual representation of a character
20:28 < doy> can either include the color or not, depending on context
20:28 < Napkin> a tree or wall has a glyph too
20:29 < doy> 'character' meaning... typographical character
20:29 < doy> not game character
20:29 < doy> (:
20:32 <+by> that particular case above is because the "Items here:" message is output by autopickup, which takes place right at the beginning of a turn
20:35 < Cryp71c> Are player ghosts flagged as undead?
20:35 < Cryp71c> (or evil)
20:35 < Napkin> it's confusing somehow..
20:36 <+by> Napkin: it may be; I'm not set on it staying like this
20:38 < syllogism-> dpeg: sent
20:38 < syllogism-> err
20:38 < doy> Cryp71c: they are undead
20:38 < syllogism-> oops forgot to attach it :P
20:38 <@dpeg> by: do you still dislike ------ for turns without any effect?
20:38 < doy> not sure about evil
20:38 < doy> @??player ghost
20:38 < Gretell> unknown monster: "player ghost"
20:39 <@dpeg> syllogism-: ASP being negligible is a problem in its own right
20:40 < doy> hmmm
20:40 < doy> i wonder if that "don't suicide with fireballs" change made cerebov just never use fire storm anymore
20:41 < doy> that really should have more logic involved
20:41 <+greensnark> Can check with fight club
20:42 < doy> !fight cerebov v antaeus
20:42 < doy> ummm
20:42 < doy> what in the world
20:42 < doy> oh
20:42 < doy> that wasn't me
20:42 <@dpeg> syllogism-: thank you so much. Sent it 'round!
20:43 < doy> why doesn't henzell listen for !fight in here?
20:43 < Cryp71c> dpeg, closable: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=407
20:43 <@dpeg> bye, gotta run to get some bread
20:43 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: !tell today please :)
20:43 < Cryp71c> :)
20:43 < Cryp71c> !tell dpeg closable: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=407
20:43 < Henzell> Cryp71c: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
20:44 <+greensnark> doy: !fight isn't Henzell, it's varmin
20:44 < doy> ah, i guess i haven't been paying attention to ##crawl at all
20:45 < Napkin> hmmm. flying over deep water: Items here: % )) - trying to butcher: -There isn't anything here - something wrong?
20:46 < doy> Napkin: you shouldn't be able to see the items there
20:46 < doy> unless you're a merfolk?
20:46  * dpeg is not happy with items in deep water.
20:46 < Napkin> no, flying HE
20:46 < doy> Napkin: yeah, you shouldn't be able to see the items there at all
20:46 < Cryp71c> Napkin, similar issues exist with sacrificing items that are in water (and getting god gifts that then fall into the water)
20:46 < Napkin> ok - so it's known and filed already, right?
20:47 < Cryp71c> The praying / god gifting aspect is
20:47 < Napkin> I have to admit I am not playing latest version
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20:47 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:47 <+greensnark> Bad Napkin
20:47 <+greensnark> How can you not be playing latest versioin :P
20:48 < Napkin> hey - hadn't you suggested that that, I would have been dead and enjoying that new version already :-P
20:48 <+greensnark> Wait, why are you in Shoals :P
20:48 < Napkin> *that character
20:48 <@dpeg> all that would be solved by not having items in deep water
20:48 < Napkin> found boots of leviation in vault8 (two pair, actually :D) and doing clean-up now, greensnark ;)
20:48 <+greensnark> I think just making items in deep water inaccessible would fix it
20:49 < doy> dpeg: yeah, i'm not sure about that either
20:49 <@dpeg> that's progress at least, yes
20:49 < Cryp71c> 'inaccessible' sounds very generic and like it would involve quite a bit of code
20:49 <+greensnark> While still allowing due to do his kraken-with-loot-in-deep-water thing
20:49 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, Jude's new vault is the only thing holding me back from pushing harder
20:50 <+greensnark> dpeg: Actually, we can go back to deep water destroying items, but the old behaviour would show items floating in deep water if forcibly placed there
20:50 <@dpeg> greensnark: that'S even better
20:50 < syllogism-> dpeg: well the combat delay penalty does hurt a bit
20:50 <+greensnark> Floating items look weird when it's splint mail :)
20:50 < syllogism-> plus you can't wield two handed weapons
20:50 <@dpeg> syllogism-: so ASP is not fully meaningless?
20:51 < doy> maybe kraken corpses should act like a tile of dry land
20:51 < doy> (:
20:51 < syllogism-> no, but I haven't really looked at the proposed combat changes yet
20:51 <@dpeg> syllogism-: as always, your comments are appreciated. The devteam is stumbling in the dark! :)
20:52 < syllogism-> drpraetor says it's almost the status quo
20:53 -!- Kyrris [n=1@c-67-186-34-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:53 <@dpeg> !tell due Could we get unique clusters because of players choosing branches in a particular way? So I wait with Snake for some time, then it is generated rather late (for its depth) and gets all the uniques? In other words, would assigning uniques before dungeon generation yield something different?
20:53 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let due know.
20:53 < syllogism-> the spellcasting code is pretty awful, I wonder if it was originally intended for your spell skill based spell failure reduction to go through step down (it uses spell power formula)
20:54 < syllogism-> you get slightly diminished returns once your spell schools are over 22 or so
20:54 < doy> Napkin: how did you recolor your hud?
20:54 < syllogism-> or lower with the spellcasting bonus
20:54 <@dpeg> syllogism-: is it the same in 4.1?
20:54 <@dpeg> also: hunger
20:54 < Napkin> the ?: screen? or the hud stuff (Health, etc), doy?
20:55 < doy> Napkin: Health:, etc
20:55 < Napkin> uhm, 1s
20:55 <@dpeg> doy: there is an options :P
20:55 < syllogism-> no idea, brent did nerf spellcasters a lot but not sure in what way
20:55 < doy> really?
20:55 < doy> had no idea
20:55 < Napkin> status_caption_colour = white, doy
20:55 < doy> interesting
20:55 <@dpeg> syllogism-: yes, 4.1. may not be a role model for combat system
20:55 < Napkin> it was white somewhere in 0.3 I think... and I got used to it :)
20:56 < doy> i think i like how that looks a lot better than brown
20:56 < doy> (:
20:56 < Napkin> :)
20:56 < doy> (although i'd still love a lua hud!)
20:56 <+greensnark> doy: Want to write that? :)
20:56 < doy> heh
20:57 <+greensnark> Should be easy-ish
20:57 < doy> i'll write the lua part, if someone else writes the bindings
20:57 < doy> (:
20:57 <+greensnark> I think tiles uses the same code too
20:57 <@dpeg> hey, the current HUD is 4.1 style! A nod to Brent.
20:57 < Napkin> greensnark? would you have an idea of how to fix auto-explore not run into plants and stop? and on the other hand stop if a plant is blocking a narrow walk-way?
20:58 <@dpeg> okay, foooood
20:58 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit ["HUNGER"]
20:58 <+greensnark> That would probably need changes to the travel code
20:58 -!- TGWi [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:58 < Napkin> it made "playing" shoals quite difficult
20:58 <+greensnark> There used to be some thing to route around plants, don't know what it looks like now
20:58 < Napkin> bbl
20:58 < doy> autoexplore/travel should also be able to work if you're standing on an excluded tile, if you're adjacent to a non-excluded tile
20:59 < doy> that's something that's bothered me for a while
20:59 <+greensnark> Yes
20:59 < Kyrris> doy: It seems to, if the exclusions are because of steam clouds.
20:59 < Kyrris> I've been able to autoexplore away from lava/water lakes for a while.
20:59 < doy> hmmm
21:00 < Cryp71c> Kyrris, there are very wierd exlucsion-based bugs caused by say, burning books (trog) where autoexplore fails until you move around the burning book
21:00 < Kyrris> Yeah, I realize there are a lot of weak points.
21:01 < doy> hmmm, maybe that does work now
21:01 < doy> i know it didn't for a while
21:03 < Kyrris> Yep.
21:03 < Kyrris> Just did it.
21:03 < Kyrris> Standing in excluded shallow water, o sent me wandering.
21:04 < Kyrris> Works for manual exclusions, too.
21:04 < doy> can't autotravel just treat remembered immobile monsters as unpathable, like walls?
21:04 < doy> doesn't seem like it would need special code for routing around things
21:05 < Kyrris> doy: Do monsters use the same pathfinding code?
21:05 < doy> Kyrris: shrug
21:06 <+greensnark> Monsters do not use the same pathfinding code
21:06 <+greensnark> Travel used to peek at plants in mapped terrain, but I don't think it does any more
21:07 <+greensnark> It can certainly use the seen flag that's available now
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21:11 <+by> is_travelsafe_square does seem to consider monster-blocked cells
21:11 < Cryp71c> oooo, I love the new temple with trees thing
21:12 < Cryp71c> sry... /me goes back to #crawl
21:15 < Napkin> plant is still considered like a wall if it's in a uhmm.. 1-width-walkway
21:15 < Napkin> auto-explore will turn around and walk elsewhere
21:15 <+by> they could be treated as traversable with a heavy traversal penalty -- it's currently 2 for closed doors and 3 for traps
21:16 < doy> elly: you took autovoice away from me and due when you changed us to the op level, perhaps there needs to be an op-committer level?
21:16 < doy> by: that penalty would have to be several hundred for bushes d:
21:16 <+by> maybe the changes related to auto-cutting-down of toadstools broke something?
21:17 <+greensnark> by: No, I think travel is working as intended, but the behaviour is suboptimal in places blocked by plants
21:18 <+greensnark> i.e. Napkin would like travel to walk up to the plant and stop, whereas it will currently path around the plant
21:18 <+greensnark> Setting a cost for the plant ought to work
21:18 < doy> greensnark: no, other way around
21:18 <+greensnark> doy: He said so just a little while back ^^
21:19 <+greensnark> <Napkin> plant is still considered like a wall if it's in a uhmm.. 1-width-walkway
21:19 <+greensnark> <Napkin> auto-explore will turn around and walk elsewhere
21:19 < doy> "would you have an idea of how to fix auto-explore not run into plants and stop?"
21:19 < Napkin> but only then
21:19 <+greensnark> Hm?
21:19 <+greensnark> Ok, then I don't understand the problem :P
21:19 < Napkin> sorry, got busy, 10m
21:20 < syllogism-> i think that's the same thing phrased in a different way
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21:35 <@elly> doy: oh, sorry
21:35 <@elly> doy: one sec
21:37 <@elly> doy: fixed, rejoin
21:39 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."]
21:47 < Napkin> still here, greensnark?
21:48 < TGWi> "shoals_atoll support"
21:48 < TGWi> this is the happiest moment of my life
21:48 < CIA-81> by * r3c8124153e81 /crawl-ref/source/libutil.cc: Revert "Fix crash in line_reader."
21:48 < CIA-81> by * r00a86ae18ee0 /crawl-ref/source/ (message.cc message.h): Export function to scroll message window.
21:48 < CIA-81> by * rea8f5973148f /crawl-ref/source/ (libutil.cc libutil.h): A bunch of convenience functions for dealing with screen regions.
21:48 < Cryp71c> Is it intentional that slime creatures (even titanic slime creatures) have the same HD (and are polymorphable) when they're merged?
21:49 < syllogism-> yes
21:50 < Cryp71c> ok, because polymorphing titanic slime creatures is an easy (and kind of cheap) way of dealing with them
21:52 < Kyrris> And tanking your xp gain.
21:52 < Cryp71c> yeah, I guess -_-
21:52 < Kyrris> The idea that polymorph should split them first was bouncing around.
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22:05 < Napkin> kraken tentacles cannot be aimed at with z, only with Z
22:06 <+kilobyte> which is silly
22:07 < TGWi> am I allowed to file bugs about ^p etc etc?
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22:07 < Napkin> wasn't there one filed today already?
22:07 < Kyrris> TGWi: It isn't fixed enough for you?
22:08 < TGWi> "fixed enough?"
22:08 < TGWi> starting scrolled halfway down and not having any labels is pretty bad
22:09 < TGWi> also forced --more--s are showing up in the middle of the screen and not the bottom
22:09 < TGWi> how much of this is known?
22:09 <+doy> probably should make it a wiki page
22:10 <+doy> it'll be hard to keep track of as 20 different tracker tickets
22:10 < TGWi> a wiki page for bug reports, impressive
22:10 < Napkin> actually a good idea
22:11 < TGWi> and they're coloured weird
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22:23 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r51efcdce0ef6 /crawl-ref/source/ (tilemcache.cc tilepick.cc): Fix tile asserts whenever tilemcache tried to draw a holy scourge.
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23:02 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r24e1062cb82b /crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Add an equipment tile for the holy scourge.
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