00:00 < TGW> cbus: it's at least somewhat connected in low tide
00:00 < TGW> lev makes it more fun
00:00 < AceTetra> i thought shoals was made for no lev
00:01 <+due> hi
00:01 < Henzell> due: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
00:01 <+due> !messages
00:01 < Henzell> (1/3) greensnark said (9h 16m 54s ago): Once we have alligators Donald should ask for alligator sandwiches. The snappy variety.
00:01 <+due> !messages
00:01 < Henzell> (1/2) by said (8h 36m 34s ago): You may want to try out branch messagewindow for more pleasant luaterp behaviour.
00:01 <+due> !messages
00:01 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (5h 55m 20s ago): I think Johanna did this already? She has an uncanny ability to do the things mentioned elsewhere.
00:01 < TGW> 'lo due
00:02 <+due> i
00:02 <+due> Er. Hi.
00:03 <+by> hi due
00:03 <+due> hi rob!
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00:04 < AceTetra> hi people who say hi
00:04 < TGW> hi
00:05 < ogaz> hi AceTetra 
00:06 <+due> mons_is_firewood, I love it.
00:06 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * rf29164271359 /crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Move turn count increase to the end of world_reacts.
00:06 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r0e6910f59646 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Handle multiple temporary lines properly.
00:06 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * re03a91056a5b /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Initialize colour when drawing message window.
00:06 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * rc12350914401 /crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc message.cc message.h): Output solitary leading dash on new turn.
00:06 < AceTetra> due: firewood? ok, kebabable next
00:07 < AceTetra> nethack has "kebabable" monsters, such as dragons, and that is such an awesome word
00:07 < Cryp71c> ..I'm starting to not like regeneration DS mut as a Be
00:07 < Cryp71c> I'm always hungry..
00:08 < TGW> cryp71c: placebo
00:08 < Cryp71c> TGW, eh?
00:08 < TGW> that's not the right word, confirmation bias
00:09 < TGW> the mutation doesn't take hunger
00:09 < Cryp71c> ...eh?
00:09 < Cryp71c> I thought you were going to say that
00:09 < Cryp71c> are you certain, it seriously seems like I'm eating 2-3 as much
00:09 < TGW> being a berserker might have something to do with that
00:09 < Cryp71c> TGW, lol, havn't been zerking recently
00:10 <+due> TGW: psychosomatic, perhaps?
00:10 < TGW> ??regeneration[4]
00:10 < Henzell> regeneration[4/5]: The regeneration mutations conflict with slow metabolism, but do not otherwise affect your nutrition.
00:10 < Cryp71c> psychosomatic atikinsane
00:10 < Cryp71c> 9sp/0
00:10 < TGW> due: there might be a larger word you could use
00:11 < TGW> if anything, regeneration should help you stay satiated
00:11 < TGW> less time waiting
00:11 < Cryp71c> ??hunger
00:11 < Henzell> hunger[1/2]: Obviously, you can't go on without food for too long. In most cases, eating fixes this. Dead: 0. Starving: 1-1000. Near starving: 1001-1533. Very hungry: 1534-2066. Hungry: 2067-2600. Satiated (blank): 2601-7000. Full: 7001-9000. Very full: 9001-11000. Engorged: 11001-12000. Perhaps you wanted to know about {spell hunger}?
00:11  * due points at ##crawl.
00:11 < Cryp71c> ??hunger[2]
00:11 < Henzell> hunger[2/2]: Be warned, you don't always faint before you starve to death
00:12 < Cryp71c> ??nutrition
00:12 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled nutrition in my learndb.
00:12 < Cryp71c> TGW, u know the hunger rates?
00:12 < Cryp71c> ??hunger rate
00:12 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled hunger_rate in my learndb.
00:12 < Cryp71c> grr..
00:12  * due stamps feet.
00:12  * by points at ##crawl, too.
00:12 <+due> You can a) PM Henzell if you're unsure, or b) look up ??learndb for a link to the HTMl version.
00:13 <+due> by: So, haloes don't actually do anything in tiles.
00:14 < Cryp71c> due, was that directed at me?
00:14 < TGW> due: wait, they don't DO anything? or they're invisible?
00:14 <+due> Cryp71c: Yes.
00:14 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r58d13375a7ad /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Update message window TODO list.
00:14 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * rbf955b2d3a76 /crawl-ref/ (11 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into messagewindow
00:14 <+due> TGW: They're invisible; instead of drawing it on teh ground, they draw it on the monster.
00:14 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r22597f1bdeb7 /crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Fix a doubled word in steel ammo's description.
00:15 <+by> due: monster halos? player halo? is this new?
00:15 < Napkin> Eronarn, are you in?
00:15 < Cryp71c> due, that's my bad. you saying ##crawl didn't really indicate anything. Thought I was in the main channel.
00:16 < Eronarn> Napkin: I am
00:16 <+by> in the future, someone saying "##crawl" might indicate something?
00:17 <+by> due: need to sleep now; could you file an issue regarding the halos?
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00:25  * due eats Eronarn.
00:25 <+due> Eronarn: Request for wiki permissions on mantis!
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00:28 < Eronarn> oh, okay
00:28 < Eronarn> (sorry, was off phone shopping)
00:29 < Eronarn> I wish it wouldn't change project view to DCSS when you file something in DCSS
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01:31 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r6931b8ce8d5c /crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Replace the angel tile with one using dynamic weapons (by Porkchop again).
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02:24 < TGW> The goblin hits you from afar with a runed hand axe of reaching.
02:24 < TGW> this is a bit silly
02:25 <+doy> probably a bug
02:28 < TGW> a bailey entry
02:29 <+doy> MONS: goblin ; hand axe ego:reaching
02:30 <+doy> that is a bit silly
02:31 <+doy> !tell dpeg bailey entrace monsters can get hand axes of reaching? really? d:
02:31 < Henzell> doy: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
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03:33 < TGW> how hard would it be to make ice form act as mf in water??
03:33 < TGW> s/??/?/
03:37 <+sorear> 5 minutes
03:37 <+sorear> give or take
03:37 <+doy> @??ice beast
03:37 < Gretell> ice beast (I) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 5(cold) | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(20), cold+++, poison, asphyx | Vul: fire | XP: 121.
03:38 <+sorear> @? ice beast
03:38 < Gretell> ice beast (I) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 5(cold) | Res: magic(20), cold+++, poison, asphyx | Vul: fire | XP: 120.
03:38 <+sorear> ice beasts have only been amphibious for about a week
03:38 <+doy> why the change?
03:38 <+sorear> Darshan wanted to give aquamancers summon ice beast
03:39 <+doy> could be cool, except for how weak ice beasts are
03:39 <+doy> (:
03:39 <+sorear> oh hey
03:39 <+sorear> somebody backported colors to @?
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04:04 <+due> hi
04:05 <+due> Ah,I didn't miss anything.
04:07 <+due> TGW: I'll do it now, if you want.
04:07 < TGW> due: <3
04:09 < Ashenzari> Invalid Beam (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=467) by LordSloth
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04:13 <+due> Delightful, all the amphibious player checks are hardcoded to SP_MERFOLK.
04:13  * due fixes.
04:14 < TGW> what's the sp for?
04:14 <+doy> species
04:14 < TGW> aha
04:15 <+sorear> due: I think 80% of them use player::can_swim
04:16 <+due> Or player::swimming()
04:17 < TGW> receive corpses can give dragons, right?
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04:20 <+due> TGW: Sure.
04:20 < TGW> can those dragons give hides?
04:21 <+due> No.
04:21 <+due> Deliberately cannot.
04:22 <+due> I think adding ice form to ::can_swim should be enough
04:24 < TGW> what part would that exclude? the EV?
04:26 <+due> Hm/
04:26 <+due> Well, there's stuff like visible_igrid which checks for deep water and being a merfolk
04:26 < TGW> I'd be cool with no fumble etc etc and semi-haste
04:26 <+due> Rather than the ability to swim.
04:29 < TGW> !lg
04:30 < Henzell> 9293. TGW the Insei (L6 DGTm), splashed by acid on D:6 on 2010-01-19, with 630 points after 7437 turns and 0:32:03.
04:30 < TGW> !log
04:30 < Henzell> 9293. TGW, XL6 DGTm, T:7437: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/TGW/morgue-TGW-20100119-032937.txt
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04:37 < Twinge_> I guess it sorta also depends on just how ampbious Ice Form should be.  Should it be able to pick up items from deep water like Merfolk, or simply swim across it?  Shrug.
04:37 <+due> I think it should be able to pick up items.
04:37 <+due> It's an interesting bonus.
04:37 <+doy> it might be reasonable to differentiate between "able to move through deep water" and "native to water"
04:38 <+due> doy: Sure, I'm not planning on giving them a speed bonus, for starters.
04:38 <+doy> yeah, stuff like that
04:38 < Twinge_> Nod.  and I guess same issue as with Lev - don't be in deep water when its wearing off?  hehe
04:39 <+doy> pretty much
04:39 <+due> Exactly.
04:39 <+doy> that's less of an issue though, since it's only available through the spell
04:39 <+due> Now, if I could find the speed in water bonus bit. :)
04:39 <+doy> it's only a real issue for lev because most people use potions or rings
04:39 <+doy> which aren't renewable
04:40 <+doy> well, potions can be, i guess
04:40 <+doy> but you know what i mean
04:40 < Twinge_> Ah, forgot that it's renewable.  Hell, I forget they're cancellable; that would've helped when Blade Hands was lasting too long in a game I was playing :P
04:40 <+doy> (:
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04:43 <+due> Yeah, merflk get speed 6 when swimming.
04:44 <+doy> giving amphibiousness to statue form has been an fr for a while too
04:44 <+due> Interestingly enough, you don't get a movement penalty for being burdened as a merfolk while swimming.
04:44 <+due> I didn't know that
04:44 <+doy> once you get this sorted out, could do that too
04:45 <+doy> that's interesting
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04:45 <+due> Yeah.
04:45 <+due> I've half a mind to move the burned checks out of that block
04:45 <+doy> would make more sense to just increase carrying capacity like lev does
04:45 <+due> Hehehehe, ice form wearing off while in deep water does't kill you.
04:45 <+doy> than to explicitly not give a movement penalty
04:46 <+doy> it doesn't?
04:46 <+due> Nope, just leaves you stranded.
04:46 <+due> It's amusing
04:46 <+doy> heh
04:46 <+doy> it should though
04:46 <+due> Oh, it should
04:47 <+doy> hmmm
04:47 <+doy> i wonder if there's anything interesting we could do with the fact that ice floats
04:47 <+doy> something to differentiate it from statue form
04:48 <+doy> hmmmm
04:48 <+doy> maybe things with asphyx resistance should just in general be able to move through deep water
04:48 <+doy> and statue form should get asphyx resistance
04:49 <+doy> since drowning is just asphyxiation
04:49 < Twinge_> statue can't fight or be fought in deep water by non-amphibious creatures, since it walks along the bottom rather than floating?  But gets a movement penalty in all water, like most races get in shallow
04:50 <+doy> i think that would be too much of an edge case to make the effort of coding it in worth it
04:50 <+doy> but yeah, the basic idea of 'ice form floats, statue form walks along the bottom' is something to consider
04:51 <+due> Yeah, agree.
04:51 < Twinge_> Maybe.  First thing that came to mind to differentiate them though
04:51 <+due> Maybe ice form should get a movement penalty in water; they're floating, and finding it difficult to move about?
04:52 < Twinge_> I could go either way there, would just want to see it fairly consistent for player ice form and monster ice beasts.
04:52 <+due> True.
04:52 <+due> @??ie beast
04:52 < Gretell> unknown monster: "ie beast"
04:52 <+due> @??ice beast
04:52 < Gretell> ice beast (I) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 5(cold) | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(20), cold+++, poison, asphyx | Vul: fire | XP: 121.
04:53 <+doy> statue and ice form should probably both get a movement penalty, but statue form should get an attack speed penalty that ice form doesn't?
04:53 <+due> That should probably be made ht_amphibious_land.
04:53 <+due> Instead of just amphibious.
04:53 <+doy> shrug, just throwing out ideas now
04:53 <+due> @??donald
04:53 < Gretell> Donald (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 54 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 8 | Res: magic(33) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 365.
04:53 <+due> sorear: Is there  an easy way to update @?? on CDO?
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04:54 <+sorear> due: ping greensnark, he's the only one who actually knows how
04:54 <+doy> so - three types of amphibiousness: able to breathe water (merfolk), no breathing necessary (asphyx-resistant monsters), able to swim/float in water (ice beasts)
04:54 <+doy> ?
04:54 < Twinge_> 20:52] <Gretell> clouded the Summoner (L9 DESu), worshipper of Sif Muna, shot by a centaur (arrow of flame of flame) (led by a centaur warrior) on D:14, with 3551 points after 12118 turns and 0:58:14. <-- Thought 'of flame of flame' was fixed?
04:54 <+doy> that part i think is worthwhile
04:55 <+doy> just need to decide on how those should actually be differentiated
04:55 <+due> It was fixed
04:55 <+due> st_: What versoin were you playing?
04:55 < Twinge_> Not live on CDO yet?
04:55 <+due> It is... damn it. :/
04:55 <+sorear> due: visible_igrd quite specifically does not check can_swim because, well, it's *visible*.  I gave the ability to see into water as a Mf perk
04:56 < st_> latest I think (d50b26f)
04:56 <+doy> there should be an @ command to show the currently running version on cdo
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04:56 <+doy> and possibly the version that a specific player is playing
04:56 <+due> sorear: Hm, okay.
04:56 <+doy> that would be useful
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04:56 <+doy> statue form should be able to see items in deep water
04:56 <+due> sorear: But does this mean that non-merfolk players who can swim won't be able to pick up items in deep water?
04:56 <+doy> ice form shouldn't
04:57 <+doy> well
04:57 <+due> Okay
04:57 <+due> I'll revert that bit
04:57 <+doy> they should be able to see items on their tile
04:57 <+doy> in deep water
04:57 <+due> Yeah
04:58 <+doy> merfolk should be able to see items in any water tile, things that walk along the bottom should be able to see items in deep water on their current tile only
04:58 <+doy> i wonder if i'm making this too complicated
04:58 <+doy> might want to move this to the wiki before coding it
04:58 <+sorear> due: don't mess with visible_igrd, it's unfinished
04:58 < Twinge_> doy: Might as well add in what I suggested if you're going that far, hehe
04:59 <+due> sorear: Okay, not touching then.
04:59 <+sorear> due: if you want to finish it (as opposed to merely messing with it) - visible_igrd needs to be split apart into visible_igrd and accessible_igrd
04:59 <+sorear> due: the former is for Mf, the latter is for anyone who can dive
04:59 <+due> Right-o, I won't touch it at the minute.
04:59 <+due> Want to finish Donald's speech first.
05:00 <+due> Excellent, drowning works, though the message could do with tweaking.
05:00 <+due> However, it currnetly sounds like you're floating, so that works.
05:02 <+due> Hm, oh, also...
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05:04 <+due> Hm.
05:04 <+due> We don't prevent ending the dragon transformation while over deep water
05:04 < TGW> @no movement bonus: :[
05:04 <+due> So, shouldn't prevent ending the ice form transformation while in deep water?
05:05 <+pointless_> So will ice form get the melee damage bonus vs. floundering enemies? 
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05:06 < TGW> I thought that was just for aquatic dude
05:06 < TGW> s
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05:06 <+due> pointless_: Yeah.
05:06 <+due> pointless_: But you'd get that if they're in water and you're not, no?
05:07 <+due> Ah, yeah.
05:07 <+pointless_> I think for players it is only if you are swimming (not sure how that's defined), and the monster is floundering 
05:07 <+due> I think that's okay.
05:07 <+due> We can maybe add a paraeter to ::Swimming that returns a false value if it's just a temporary/statue form type.
05:09 < Twinge_> Anyone know what learndb's escape char is, to edit in a url?
05:10 < Twinge_> Ah, pointless got it
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05:12 <+due> Okay, I don't think I broke anything.
05:12 <+due> Twinge_: use @ instead
05:12 <+due> s@blah@blah@
05:13 < Twinge_> Okay - yeah pointless used | and it worked.
05:13 < Zannick> or drown in escaping characters
05:13 < Zannick> http:\/\/
05:13 <+due> Or :, really.
05:15 <+doy> : wouldn't work for a url
05:18 <+due> True
05:18 <+due> You can use # too, right?
05:19 <+doy> probably
05:22 < CIA-81> due * r7f33a89a366c /crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc terrain.cc transform.cc): Make ice form amphibious to match ice beasts (FR #461).
05:24 <+due> Does anyone understand the proof in religion.cc:handle_god_time?
05:24 <+doy> yes
05:25  * due doens't :(
05:25 <+doy> that's a pretty well known algorithm
05:25 <+due> hooray, I suck at maths.
05:25 <+doy> http://geomblog.blogspot.com/2008/01/happy-birthday-don-knuth.html
05:25 <+doy> has a couple explanations of it
05:25 <+due> Thanks!
05:27 <+due> That explanation makes a hell of a lot more sense than th ecomment, I think.
05:27 <+doy> (:
05:27 <+doy> it's pretty straightforward once you understand it
05:27 <+doy> just a bit clever
05:27 <+sorear> Is that the one from cpostfx in NetHack?
05:27 <+doy> on the other hand
05:28 <+due> Yeah! Hooray! I understood something mathematical!
05:28 <+due> David will be proud.
05:28 <+doy> there's no reason at all that that part of the code needs to be using that algorithm
05:28 <+doy> that's only useful if you don't know the size of the set you're choosing from
05:28 <+doy> which really isn't the case there
05:28 <+due> I'm just trying to find the function that converts your god into your god's name!
05:29 <+due> Ah.
05:29 <+doy> someone should replace that with a random2 call, i think
05:29 <+due> god_name(god_type god). How simple!
05:47 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["."]
05:47 <+due> Okay
05:47 <+due> Anyone aroun dto help with Donald's god speech?
05:50 <+due> No. :)
05:53 < Twinge_> Kikawha?  Okawho?  Eh, I'll just go with 'Trog'
05:55 <+sorear> XOM
05:55 <+due> That's generic, need specific god complaints.
05:55 <+due> Starting with  Zin.
05:56 < Twinge_> Does he complain about the god you're worshipping, or just have one set for him?
05:56 <+sorear> But nowhere on this pamphlet does it say exactly what Recite is good for.  I wanna be an adventurer not some silly preacher!
05:57 <+sorear> This is all very confusing.  What good is divine satiation if I'm not allowed to eat?
05:57 <+due> The god you're worshipping.
05:57 <+pointless_> I keep trying to spread the word, but I always end up getting punched in the face
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05:58 <+pointless_> Don't preach to me you sanctimonious jerk. 
05:58 <+sorear> Something seems a little off about a god you can pay, no?
05:58 <+sorear> What does Zin need our gold for anyway?
05:59 <+due> Mu_, Zin Donald speech!
05:59 <+sorear> I hate these stupid dietary rules!
05:59 <+pointless_> I've got 200 gold pieces, is that enough to cure these mutations? 
06:00 < Mu_> 'whys everyone so mad at me'
06:00 <+due> "At least they won't go berserk any more."
06:01 <+due> Too meta?
06:01 <+pointless_> Well if Donald isn't worshiping zin I don't think it makes sense
06:02 < Mu_> oh i thought he was generating with a religion
06:02 < Mu_> is he just shopping for a god?
06:02 <+due> True.
06:02 <+due> Mu_: Commenting on your choice of god.
06:02 < Mu_> ah i see
06:02 <+due> "Don't you hate it when everyone gets mad at you?"
06:02 <+pointless_> "If I give you 20 gold can you get rid of these scales for me?" 
06:03 <+due> :D
06:03 <+due> Okay, onto the Shinnig One!
06:03 <+due> (Though feel free to continue with Zin)
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06:03 <+pointless_> "Keep this up and I will RUN AWAY"
06:03 < ogaz> Maybe I should just go to sleep so you won't kill me
06:04 <+pointless_> "I saw you coming a mile away!"
06:06 < Mu_> get that damn torch light out of my eyes.
06:06 < Mu_> pick one of torch or light i guess :p
06:06 <+pointless_> Slaughtering defenseless animals isn't very honorable 
06:06 <+sorear> due: it's not the metaness that's problematic; there's no continuity between games or between versions
06:06 <+due> sorear: True.
06:07 < Twinge_> pointless: That doesn't sound like enough of a complaint :)
06:07 <+due> sorear: The only references I've had to previous versions I've tried to keep very subtle.
06:08 < Twinge_> due: like "Why isn't it easier for me to hit you because of how brightly you glow?" ;P
06:09 <+due> :D
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06:10 <+due> Okay, Kiku
06:10 <+pointless_> You worship who?
06:10 <+pointless_> How do you spell that? 
06:11 < ogaz> How do you pronounce that?
06:11 < Mu_> is she finalized yet
06:11 <+due> Relatively.
06:11 <+pointless_> I don't remember what kiku does anymore so I can't really contribute here
06:12 < ogaz> torment butchery, spellbook/pain brand gifting, get corpses, torment protection
06:13 <+doy> "how much of a masochist are you?"
06:13 < Mu_> 'butchering is such a pain, isn't it'
06:14 < AceTetra> neunon: when you join, i think of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neusis_construction
06:14 <+pointless_> I'm hungry, can you summon some snacks?
06:15 <+neunon> AceTetra: interesting.
06:15  * AceTetra tries to cast "Create Fritos", but fails
06:15 <+neunon> This is one of those days where I see such a wikipedia article and can't process any information in it for the life of me.
06:16 <+due> Okay, Yredelemnul.
06:16 <+due> @??skeletal dragon
06:16 < Gretell> skeletal dragon (D) | Speed: 8 | HD: 20 | Health: 160-320 | AC/EV: 20/4 | Damage: 30, 20, 20 | Flags: undead, evil, sense invisible, fly | Res: magic(106), fire, cold, elec++, poison | XP: 2360.
06:16  * neunon just repacked the server-side git repos
06:16 <+neunon> good lord, those things were bloated
06:16 <+due> Bloat bloat bloaty bloat!
06:16 <+neunon> 161 MB for Crawl itself.. repacked down to 28M.
06:17 <+due> Yredelemnul complaints!
06:17 <+pointless_> You wish you were a real necromancer don't you. 
06:18 <+pointless_> Did you fail out of necromancy school or what?
06:20 <+pointless_> Oh no don't sick a hungry ghost on me!
06:21 <+due> "Your hungry ghost just ate my lunch."
06:21 <+pointless_> What exactly is a 'death cob'
06:21 <+due> Okawaru!
06:21 <+due> Everyone's been waiting for tihs.
06:22 <+due> @The_monster@ says, "Okawaru always makes me think of chokos."
06:22 <+sorear> pointless_: the verb is 'sic'
06:22 <+doy> "yawn"
06:22 <+pointless_> Well there you go
06:23 <+pointless_> "Hey I could use a new animal skin"
06:23 < ogaz> "do you have any spare potions"
06:24 < Mu_> how many innocent creatures had to die so that you could get a new pair of shoes
06:24 <+pointless_> Okawaru gifts are murder
06:27 <+due> Okay, Makhleb next.
06:28 <+pointless_> Are you sure summoning demons is a good idea?
06:29 <+pointless_> Don't blow yourself up now 
06:29 <+sorear> Hey, watch where you throw those lightning balls
06:31 <+due> Sif Muna!
06:31 < ogaz> if you wanted to read so much why didn't you just go to the library?
06:31 <+pointless_> I heard Sif Muna worshipers can...get this...forget things! Is that true? 
06:33 <+pointless_> You know you can just visit your local library right?
06:34 <+sorear> That skill training requirement sounds like a real pain.
06:34 <+due> @The_monster@ says, "Did I just see you do a victory dance?"
06:34 <+due> --^ Too meta/
06:34 < ogaz> I like it
06:34 < AceTetra> i like it too
06:35 < AceTetra> more monsters should detect your playstyle and mock you for it
06:35 <+pointless_> "What did that wall ever do to you?" 
06:35 <+pointless_> You'll go blind if you keep casting by yourself 
06:35 < AceTetra> hahahaha yes
06:35 < AceTetra> put that in
06:36 <+due> Hooray, Trog!
06:37 <+pointless_> "You mad?" 
06:38 < Mu_> 'i bet his next axe abysses you'
06:38 <+pointless_> Are you some kind of troglodyte? 
06:39 <+pointless_> Well you better stick with Trog, I hear he has abandonment issues
06:39 <+sorear> I considered Trog, but the aftereffects of berserking scare me
06:39 < ogaz> Can Donald cast spells?
06:39 <+due> No
06:41 <+due> The gods should probably all hate Donald though, seeing as he hates them.
06:41 <+sorear> The Shining One scares me... those fireballs are not pleasant
06:41 < ogaz> Well, I wanted to suggest some sort of "Don't you wish you could do this?" comment
06:42 <+due> "I bet you're wishing you could cast spells now, right?"
06:42 <+pointless_> Look at me! I'm casting magic dart! Does that piss you off? 
06:42 <+sorear> donald gets random wrath effects?
06:43 <+pointless_> Are you sure you're allowed to read scrolls? 
06:45 <+due> Heheeh
06:45 <+due> Nemelex Xobeh!
06:45 <+pointless_> Hey I saw some litter on the other side of the level, you better go clean that up.
06:47 <+pointless_> "You do magic trick right? Want me to draw a card?" 
06:48 < ogaz> I'm never going to play a card game with you
06:48 <+pointless_> Do you even have room for potions with all the decks you're carrying around? 
06:48 <+sorear> Hey, I think I saw you drop a card
06:48 <+sorear> saw a card fall out of that deck
06:49 <+pointless_> I've seen this trick before, you've got an ace up your sleeve don't you? 
06:49 < Mu_> i think you need to come to terms with your gambling problem
06:49 < Twinge_> ^ <3
06:50 <+due> Hehehe.
06:50 <+due> Elyvilon!
06:50 <+pointless_> What happened to "First do no harm?" 
06:51 <+sorear> Didn't the ability to heal your enemies seem rather useless?
06:54 <+pointless_> Maybe you should start praying
06:54 < ogaz> If I gave you my weapon, would you leave me alone?
06:55 <+due> Okay, Lugonu!
06:55 <+due> Ely is pretty boring for complaints.
06:55 < ogaz> There needs to be an ely complaint about prayer butchering, but I couldn't come up with a good one
06:55 <+pointless_> Why would you want to enter the abyss?
06:56 <+pointless_> You should probably get a mace blessed
06:56 <+due> ogaz: That's gone now.
06:57 <+pointless_> "Nothing ever attacks me when I'm in the abyss"
06:57 < AceTetra> i'm not even afraid of 1s in the abyss
06:58 < AceTetra> nothing is threatening there
06:58 <+due> "So, why can't you enter the Abyss from Pandemonium?"
06:58 < ogaz> all of lugonu's abilities involve hurting yourself, there has to be a good way to complain about that
07:00 <+due> Beogh!
07:00 <+pointless_> You think you can walk on water?
07:00 <+pointless_> Isn't it annoying when people just start following you around? 
07:01 <+pointless_> You're going to need a lot more orcs to take me on.
07:01 <+due> @The_monster@ says, "How do you feed them all? Five loaves and a few fishes?"
07:02 <+pointless_> That's good
07:02 <+pointless_> You better watch out, the one on the left looks like he gets lost easily.
07:03 <+due> One more!
07:03 < Mu_> these wont really make sense if they have no followers when they find him :s
07:04 < ogaz> well, beogh does send you waves of followers
07:04 <+due> True.
07:04 <+due> But the likelihood of that is low.
07:04 <+due> Jiyva!
07:05 < Mu_> 'ewwwwwwwww'
07:05 < Mu_> ;p
07:05 <+pointless_> Take a bath slimeball
07:05 < ogaz> When I saw you last I didn't recognize you
07:05 < Mu_> 'what have you done with all of the items'
07:06 <+pointless_> I hate it when jellies take over a level
07:09 < AceTetra> pointless_: how often does that really happen?
07:09 <+pointless_> I don't know 
07:09 <+pointless_> maybe the joke is better as "I hate it when slimes take over a level" 
07:09 <+pointless_> counting the player as a slime
07:09 < AceTetra> even if i get a jelly room and the asshole jelly eats the door i closed, it still just doesn't happen that often
07:10 < AceTetra> oh, you know that starting vault with the J and h in a glass room with a door?
07:10 <+due> That's an ooze.
07:11 < AceTetra> sometimes a damn jelly spawns in there, and the whole idea is ruined
07:11 < AceTetra> the jelly eats the door and lets everything out
07:11 <+due> Jellies shouldn't pathfind through closed doors.
07:11 < ogaz> If I pretend to be a jelly, can I have your stuff?
07:11 <+due> Fedhas, Cheibriados and Xom.
07:11 < AceTetra> they shouldn't, but this is 0.5.2, and even trunk still had jellies eating closed doors last i checked
07:12 <+pointless_> Fedhas: "What's with all that fungus?" "I can make a puddle of water on the floor too."
07:12 <+pointless_> Chei: "You're not too quick on the uptake, are you?" 
07:13 < Napkin> Eronarn> I wish it wouldn't change project view to DCSS when you file something in DCSS
07:13 < Napkin> It does, even though you have set your default project to "Wiki"?
07:13 <+pointless_> Chei: "Am I talking too fast for you?" 
07:13 < Napkin> moin!
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07:13 <+due> Napkin!
07:13 < Napkin> Due :D
07:16 < ogaz> due: I think this is perfect for a wiki page; if someone has an idea, they can just add it there
07:17 <+due> ogaz: I'm coding up the file at the minute, but good idea.
07:18 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["goodnight"]
07:19 <+due> Night
07:21 <+due> page made
07:22 <+due> NEeds more Xom and Cheibriados speech.
07:22 <+due> Anyone?
07:25 < AceTetra> Xom says, "Huh? You exist? Okay, have some muts." You feel frail. (x3)
07:26 < AceTetra> i can't do chei speech though, since i don't even know what chei's deal is
07:27 < ogaz> Chei says, "Take it easy"
07:27 <+due> Cheibriados's speech *needs* to be fixed.
07:27 < ogaz> also, I think due means speech from Donald about the various gods
07:27 < AceTetra> Xom says, "Oh, go berserk or something." Your vision turns red, blah blah
07:27 <+due> And I meant Donald speech about the gods.
07:28 < AceTetra> oh i see. "Xom is a die with a face on it. Your character is such a total cheeseball."
07:28 <+due> @The_monster@ says, "What is a 'random number god' anyway?"
07:28 < AceTetra> i don't know how to mock chei properly though
07:29 < Mu_> "look at me, i'm running! i'm running!"
07:30 < AceTetra> i really just don't understand anything about chei. trog is understandable, because he owns the source of magic power and he wants to stop unlicensed users from leeching it
07:34 < AceTetra> it's like i have some kind of silly rationale for all the gods, but not chei
07:34 < ogaz> that is the best justification for Trog
07:34 < AceTetra> ogaz: i know huh
07:35 < AceTetra> i've been ruminating about that for a while
07:35 < AceTetra> magic users are leeches, unless they have the proper licenses in the form of scrolls or wands
07:36 < AceTetra> and trog wants those spellbook users to stop stealing power with their reading and their silly hand-waving motions
07:38 <+due> Generic donald speech!
07:38 < AceTetra> with chei, on the other hand, i'm just not creative enough to think of why chei would want to conserve your actions
07:38 <+due> Then confused donald speech.
07:38 < Mu_> i like to think of chei as companion to lugonu, and while she wants to destroy space chei wants to destroy time
07:39 < Mu_> the reality however is that he's a nice guy who calls you dude and talks about tummies
07:39 < AceTetra> Gods? I met better gods a long time ago, when I ate dungeon fungus just a minute ago!
07:39 < AceTetra> Forget your silly gods, Mushrooms and spam spam spam and what's all this trog nonsense anyway?
07:40 < ogaz> due: for confused donald speech, he could trash gods you're not worshipping
07:40 < AceTetra> ok, is there something i should have read about donald?
07:40 <+due> No?
07:40 < Mu_> he complains relentlessly
07:41 <+due> ogaz: I like the idea, but ... effort.
07:41 < Mu_> he has complaints about whatever branch he's in
07:41 < AceTetra> Mu_: yeah, i just was wondering about personality
07:41 < AceTetra> so he thinks EVERYTHING is bogus?
07:42 <+due> No, he just complains.
07:42 <+due> He's one of those peopple that's constantly finding negatives in everything.
07:42 < ogaz> due: I thought it would be easier, actually, because you need to come up with less new quotes for when he's confused
07:42 < AceTetra> oh, i was thinking he should say "Why don't you go out for a walk?" or something, but universal cynic is a bit tougher
07:43 <+due> ogaz: Hm, true.
07:43 < Mu_> 'i bet the orb isn't even all that great'
07:44 < AceTetra> the dungeon just goes down and down forever!
07:44 < ogaz> Why 27?
07:44 < AceTetra> so, donald is MORE cynical than a hungry ghost?
07:44 < AceTetra> ogaz: i dunno, there's 29 hells
07:45 < Mu_> i thought ghosts were intentionally misleading :p
07:45 <+due> Yes, they are deliberately misleading.
07:46 < Mu_> 'why do i only ever find shops selling food'
07:46 < Mu_> 'im hungry'
07:46 < Mu_> :p
07:48 <+due> Okay, confused speech next.
07:48 < AceTetra> Mu_: i would have traded any shop for a food shop on my SpBe
07:50 < Mu_> oh for generic complaints please reference the two best vaults:  'why would someone put a sword in a little box like that' and 'what lunatic builds a room out of secret doors'
07:50 < Mu_> :s
07:51 < AceTetra> Mu_: i like that idea
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07:51 < ogaz> I'm guessing a complaint about Lemuel be too much of an injoke
07:51 < AceTetra> can he mock the lemuel vault with maud and the two statues "placed for maximum pain"?
07:52 < AceTetra> ahahaha i got preempted by ogaz
07:52 < Mu_> 'i think i hate rivers, but i can't remember why'
07:52 < AceTetra> Mu_: YES
07:52 < AceTetra> i can't remember why that's a great line, but it's probably very good
07:52 < ogaz> Why would an ancient, powerful being agree to be trapped behind glass for eternity, anyway?
07:53 < ogaz> AceTetra: River Lethe. Maud.
07:53 < AceTetra> i just wish i could remember what i was talking about just now
07:53 < AceTetra> who's maud? i think i was supposed to thank maud...
07:55 < Mu_> 'that guy with the scythe is really mean'
07:55 < AceTetra> Mu_: oh, which guy? i just looked at whatever vault it was again and i forgot everything
07:57 -!- Twinge_ is now known as Twinge
08:04 <+due> unseen Donald
08:04 <+due> @The_monster@ says, "Why won't shop keepers serve me?"
08:05 <+due> Okay.
08:06 <+due> 535 lines added :)
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08:21 <+due> damn it.
08:24 <+due> I think I need to do the loogic elsehwere.
08:24 < Twinge> D'oh
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08:59 <+due> Oh snark which is green.
08:59 <+due> greensnark, greensnark, greensnark!
09:04 <+greensnark> Hullo
09:04 <+greensnark> Someone said my name three times?
09:06 <+due> Hehehe.
09:06 <+due> greensnark! I need help.
09:06 <+greensnark> If it's something simple :)
09:06  * greensnark has had work heaped on him.
09:07 <+due> I need help with speech.
09:07 <+due> I've got "No Good Donald" and "Swamp Donald"
09:07 <+due> But it won't combine the two.
09:07 <+due> Er, No God donald.
09:07 <+due> It expects "No God Swamp Donald".
09:07 <+due> Beyond using @_No_God_Donald_@ and doing all the branch logic in @Donald@, is there a way to overcome it?
09:08 <+due> I'd considered making __get_speak_string store speech strings in a vector then randomly return one, but that wouldn't help in any situation other than this one.
09:09 <+greensnark> "Hm" :)
09:09 <+due> It looks like we either get branch-specific Donald speech, or god-specific Donald speech, with no generics at all. :/
09:09 <+greensnark> I'm not familiar with the speech code at all
09:09 <+greensnark> That was zelgadis on steroids
09:09 <+greensnark> Aided and abetted by jpeg
09:09 <+greensnark> Possibly also on steroids, this is unconfirmed
09:10 <+greensnark> So we have _try_exact_string and __try_exact_string, eh
09:11 <+greensnark> Sorry, I'll have to get back to this later :)
09:11 <+greensnark> Got a conf call in 5 minutes
09:11 <+due> Okay
09:11 <+due> It's fine!
09:11 <+due> I came up with a solution.
09:12 <+due> Have Swamp_Donald, No_God_Donald, and then have "No God Swamp" as "@_No_God_Donald_@", "@_Swamp_Donald_@", "@_generic_Donald_@".
09:22 <+greensnark> !cdo
09:22 < Henzell> 8 players: clouded (L8 DENe @ D:6, T:6750), hyperbolic (L18 DSAs @ Vault:4, T:64382), LordSloth (L18 MfSt @ D:19, T:55804), polystyrus (L2 DDNe @ D:1, T:352), trucutru (L16 SpEn @ D:21, T:47857), Xiberia (L11 SpEn @ Lab, T:18284), Yavar (L13 SEEn @ Lair:6, T:28407), Zicher (L8 MiBe @ D:7, T:6073)
09:22 <+greensnark> Oops
09:22 <+greensnark> Anyone found Swamp classic yet?
09:22 <+greensnark> Specifically the Lernaean hydra :P
09:24 < Mu_> do you guys have any idea what might stop a door in a vault from being placed
09:25 <+due> greensnark: Not sure.
09:25 <+due> !lm * uniq=~lern
09:25 <+kilobyte> no idea, but I've seen a lone door standing next to all 8 floor squares on D:1
09:25 < Henzell> No milestones for * (uniq=~lern).
09:26 < Mu_> sometimes when i tested my dis vault the four doors at the front didn't exist, and i was reminded of this bug yesterday when somebody got a vaults vault with a missing door
09:26 <+kilobyte> right yesterday evening
09:26 < Mu_> like not opened, just not there at all
09:26 <+greensnark> There was some code to remove badly placed doors
09:27 <+due> That's odd
09:27 <+greensnark> It is presumably not respecting vault boundaries
09:27 <+due> Oh
09:27 <+due> I screwed it up :(
09:27 <+due> It was lernaean hydra / hydra, not ,
09:27 <+greensnark> ?
09:27 <+due> The "place a normal hydra if no unique available" is "," as a separator, not "/"
09:28 <+greensnark> Oh, so someone got the ending but got fobbed off with a regular hydra?
09:28 <+due> Not sure.
09:28 < CIA-81> due * r3f655f5caac7 /crawl-ref/source/dat/ossuary.des: Tweak ossuary_due_mausoleum to use restrict_door.
09:28 < CIA-81> due * r5895e172ac8f /crawl-ref/source/dat/swamp.des: Fix mistake in vault code that was not placing Lernaean hydra.
09:29 <+due> Fixed, though.
09:29 <+greensnark> Update cdo :P
09:30 <+due> 41 players on the current version of CDO :D
09:30 <+greensnark> The Lernaean hydra should be paradropped in when the player grabs the rune :P
09:30 <+due> @whereis Jambato
09:30 < Gretell> Jambato the Ruffian (L1 TrBe), a worshipper of Trog, saved on D:1 on 2010-01-10 after 291 turns.
09:30 <+due> I have half a mind to delete that.
09:31 <+due> Napkin: ThThoughts on XL1 characters on  D:1 after a small amount of turns who are the only players on a version?
09:31 < Twinge> Give it at least 2 weeks unless it's more than midly inconviencing, I'd say
09:33 <+kilobyte> well, is there any limit on the number of versions?
09:39 <+due> kilobyte: Space.
09:41 <+kilobyte> hmm, does a version take more than a couple megs?  There should be just the executable, dats and compiled database.
09:41 <+due> I've no idea, to be honest. :)
09:42 -!- neunon [n=neunon@unaffiliated/neunon] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
09:43 <+due> Donald definitely needs a new tile.
09:44 < Twinge> Donald the Faultfinder
09:44 <+due> <3
09:44 <+due> I'm sneaking Donald Duck speech in.
09:44 <+due> "Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!"
09:45 <+due> Using the wall of text principle, noboody will ever notice
09:45 <+kilobyte> don't forget about greensnark's line!
09:45 <+due> Which one?
09:45 <+kilobyte> "I'm Donald Deepwood and I'm a mighty pirate"
09:46 <+due> I so should.
09:47 < Twinge> While you're at it Boris should say "I am invincible!"
09:47 < Twinge> Either as a random or on death
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09:53 <+by> hello
09:53 <+due> Hi, rob!
09:56 <+due> This is immensely painful, but oh well, Donald's worth it.
09:58 < Napkin> moin!
09:58 <+due> Hm.
09:59 <+by> reading the backlog, statue form should stomp on items in deep water, destroying them, except for artefacts, which cause a little damage to your feet
09:59 <+by> (not seriously)
10:00 <+due> :D
10:00 <+due> That's cute.
10:01 < Napkin> due - XL1 @ D1 can probably be removed - agreed?
10:01 <+due> Napkin: I think so, yeah.
10:01 < mr0t> what's so great about donald?
10:01 <+due> Unless they have GDA.
10:01 < Napkin> GDA?
10:01 < mr0t> I like the duck angle, but other than that, he's just another unique
10:01 < cbus> nice
10:02 <+due> mr0t: ...
10:02 < cbus> only loot from a labyrinth was a =oInvisibility
10:02 < cbus> rest was crap
10:02 < cbus> or wait, =oInivis is crap :)
10:02 < mr0t> due: ok, I get the idea
10:04 < mr0t> I just figured, yknow, input from regular, non-programming players might be usefl, but you probably already get enough of that
10:04 <+due> We're currently making Donald interesting.
10:04 <+due> This is the whole point of the conversation. :)
10:05 < mr0t> yah, I read the backlog. my question was just, why donald, and not like, terence. but, I can understand, Don being a fellow adventurer and all
10:06 <+due> Why not Donald?
10:06 < Eronarn> mr0t: He is an adventurer, just like you!
10:06 < mr0t> heh
10:07 < mr0t> touch'e
10:07 < mr0t> well, sorry to interrupt, I will return to whatever it is I do when I'm not provoking IRC conflict. :p
10:13 <+due> Apparently prefix combinations are broken.
10:15 <+due> Oh hey cool.
10:15 <+due> I broke unique speech.
10:16 < Eronarn> Excellent, sir.
10:17 <+due> Go me, go me!
10:17 <+by> I want to make some subtle Donald quote about Fedhas mostly providing a mobile toilet...
10:18 <+by> it would need to be more subtle than anything I can think of though
10:19 <+Keskitalo> 25 steel sling bullets, nice.
10:19 <+by> "Fedhas? Were you a dog last life?"
10:21 <+due> Er, so I wasn't kidding about having broken monster speech. :|
10:24 <+due> Not  sure how, though.
10:26 <+by> due: is this in master already?
10:26 < Napkin> broken how?
10:26 <+due> Yes.
10:26 <+due> Adding the branches ot the speech prefixes has apparently broken all speech lookup.
10:27 <+by> I don't know the speech code, but if you like, I'll have a look
10:28 <+due> Hm, I think I know how to fix it.
10:28 <+due> I need to add skips for religion and branches.
10:29 <+due> Okay, I know what to do.
10:30 <+due> A trifle obscure, but easily dealt with
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10:36 <+due> Napkin: As in, they won't speak at all.
10:38 < Napkin> oh
10:40 < Ashenzari> Ziggurat coming to view (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=468) by evktalo
10:42 -!- hashc [n=hash@adsl-68-76-123-64.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
10:42 <+due> Damn it.
10:43 <+due> http://sprunge.us/PYVF
10:43 <+due> Oh
10:43 <+due> Whoops!
10:43 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: If you like stupid deaths, watch my latest.
10:43 <+due> Okay, I thought I was going crazy, but that makes sense.
10:44 <+due> Keskitalo: I'm redoing Donald's tile, would you mind telling me  what you think of my currnet draft?
10:44 <+due> Keskitalo: I'm in the middle of recolouring though.
10:44 <+Keskitalo> due: Sure, send it my way when at a good point
10:48 <+due> Keskitalo: Emailed!
10:48 <+due> I am trying to get the hang of the doll maker. :)
10:49 <+due> Ah! Got it.
10:49 <+due> It wasn't counting "No God" as a god. :)
10:53 <+due> Okay, fixed and pushed the fix through.
10:53 < CIA-81> due * r4f473b976b1c /crawl-ref/source/mon-speak.cc: Add religion to speech prefixes, fix broken monster speech.
10:53 <+due> Napkin: Did you want me to update CDO now to fix it?
10:55 < Napkin> busy at the moment - could you, please?
10:56 <+Keskitalo> "Orcs complain a lot, don't they? I hate it." :D
10:56 <+Keskitalo> This is good stuff, -> reading
10:59 <+due> Sure
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11:00 -!- Spads [n=spacehob@unaffiliated/spads] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:00 <+Keskitalo> "I hate ducks!" ;_;
11:00 <+due> :D
11:00 <+due> Keskitalo: There's another five or so pages worth of it to go in.
11:00 <+due> It just... didn't work.
11:17 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
11:20 <+due> Hooray!
11:20 <+due> New version of Donald's speech done.
11:26 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * rde0bbc51ae65 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/unique/duvessa.png: Tweak Duvessa's stance a bit.
11:27 <+due> Keskitalo: Do you know how often tiles are redrawn on the screen?
11:27 <+due> Every turn, or only when they change?
11:27 <+due> I can't remember.
11:30 <+due> 1590 lines changed. :)
11:31 <+Keskitalo> due: I don't.
11:31 <+due> Will poke Enne or Johanna then.
11:31 <+by> every turn at least
11:31 <+due> by: Ooh.
11:31 <+by> there's also a timeout based redraw
11:31 <+due> by: Well, in that case, my idea for usin the dynamic feature recolouring for haloes might be good.
11:32 <+by> this is done from some getch() variant in the tiles code
11:32 <+due> Having "golden" versions of each dungeon feature shouldn't be too difficult, I think.
11:32 <+due> Keskitalo: Do you think that would be better than just highlighting monsters in Halo?
11:32 <+by> due: definitely sounds like the way to go; doesn't Enne's recent change permit automatically recolouring tiles?
11:34 <+due> Yes, exactly.
11:34 <+due> It just means calculating all the HSV adjustments for the features for "golden".
11:35 <+Keskitalo> due: I do.
11:37 <+due> I might sent an Enne/jpeg/Eino/rob email!
11:37 < Twinge> Donald relevant: http://twitpic.com/x7m4f/full
11:38 <+due> ... the picture.
11:39 < CIA-81> due * r954e7cc301cd /crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Update Donald's speech: includes generic, Gods, and branches.
11:39 <+due> @whereis Jambato
11:39 < Gretell> Jambato the Ruffian (L1 TrBe), a worshipper of Trog, saved on D:1 on 2010-01-10 after 291 turns.
11:39 <+due> @whereis MrDude
11:39 < Gretell> MrDude the Sneak (L2 HaTh) saved on D:1 on 2010-01-08 after 543 turns.
11:40 <+due> @whereis billythekid
11:40 < Gretell> billythekid the Magician (L1 DGDK) saved on D:1 on 2010-01-07 after 102 turns.
11:40 < Twinge> due: Did you make Boris invincible? :D
11:40 <+due> No?
11:40 <+due> He's always beein invincible.
11:41 < Twinge> Text addition I mean
11:41 <+due> I am of the opinon that returning to a level where Boris could be placed, and he has died, should give him a chance of respawning
11:44 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2384-g954e7cc (16.0)!
11:45 < Twinge> Boris clearly must be able to say "I am invincible!".  This isscience fact.
11:56 <+by> "Testing and polish needed for 0.6 release" is so badly out of date
11:57 -!- GeoBSD [n=geobsd@lns-bzn-38-82-253-108-68.adsl.proxad.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
12:03 < GeoBSD> hi, what files to look in to make an upgrader for *.sav (15=>16) to be able to play old saved games ?
12:03 <+by> git log tags.cc
12:04 < GeoBSD> ok thanks by
12:04 <+due> You'd  have to reparse the old file, find out what's missing/been changed, and then spit it out wiht a new version.
12:04 <+due> by: Agree, but we're getting to the point that once we finish AC nerf, we can do another one and enforce featur lock.
12:04 <+due> Which... we haven't been obeying.
12:05 <+by> you could just copy the save, decrement back to 15, and see what breaks
12:05 <+by> 15->16 was done for the removal of rSlow, so it probably should only possibly break amulets
12:06 <+by> you should first load and save with 666cae, though
12:06 <+by> due: there's some issues in there that probably aren't filed anywhere else (they should be...) so there would be some loss when just deleting it
12:07 <+by> but it's not much use in its current state either
12:08 <+due> Deleting?
12:08 <+due> Deleting what? I'm not sure I follow.
12:08 <+by> that wiki page
12:08 <+due> Oh.
12:11 < GeoBSD> also what do you think of the idea to drop object(s)+a potion of mutation then put a sticky flame on it and having a new random object with random property ?
12:11 <+due> ...
12:11 <+due> Polypiling?
12:12 < GeoBSD> what is polypiling ? (sorry)
12:12 <+due> It's a nethack thing.
12:12 < GeoBSD> ahh
12:13 <+due> You make a pile of stuff and polymorph it.
12:13 < GeoBSD> so yes
12:13 <+Keskitalo> Would make an awful grind, to be blunt. :)
12:13 <+due> It's too NetHack-y, to be honest, and goes against the whole "not complicated" bit of crawl. :)
12:14 <+Keskitalo> due: Donald needs a shield to be more annoying. With a chance of reflection. >:)
12:14 <+due> Keskitalo: Hm, Greensnark suggested this with Medusa, too.
12:15 <+due> I wonder if we should have aruined city/bubble/mine city level for Orc:4.
12:16 < Twinge> maybe just a possible vault that's not always there
12:16 < GeoBSD> eh due crawl not complicated (i never end a game !)
12:17 <+Zaba> moin
12:17 <+due> Hi zaba!
12:17 <+due> Zaba, did you get a chance of play with my Snake ending?
12:17 <+due> If not, I'm going to work on it :)
12:17 <+Zaba> due, only slightly..
12:17 <+Zaba> nothing significant, I'm afraid
12:19 <+due> one_chance-in(4) of reflection, perhaps?
12:19 <+due> Zaba: Okay, I'm going to make it symmetricalll. maybe.
12:20 <+Zaba> due, the middle chamber should be symmetric, I think, and with some more stuff in it, like, maybe, pillars
12:21 <+due> Ooh, pillars is a good idea.
13:05 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r1958582e6fd4 /crawl-ref/source/ (12 files in 6 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into messagewindow
13:06 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * redc38e9cc3a3 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Fix broken backward iteration.
13:06 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r2451ce5166e6 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Make first column marker dependent on !clear_messages.
13:06 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * rfdf16a20708c /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: message_window::show is const.
13:06 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r0cc54f5340f3 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Implement mesclr() and Options.clear_messages.
13:06 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * rfe056633af29 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Add message_window::clear for clearing the message window.
13:12 <+due> Zaba: http://pastebin.ca/1757322
13:12 <+due> I normalised the shape; thoghts?
13:12 <+Zaba> due, looks nicer than it used to
13:13 <+due> I'm thinking of putting the door at the bottom.
13:17 <+due> Zaba: http://pastebin.ca/1757330
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13:18 <+Zaba> due, I still think that even more stuff needs to be inside the stone walls.. well, or monsters.  But apportation shouldn't be too easy to do.
13:19 <+due> Sure.
13:19 <+Zaba> due, door at the bottom makes me wonder what is the snake's tail for
13:19 <+due> Symmetry
13:20 <+Zaba> well, of course, it's important, but keeping unneeded stuff out, or putting it in use, is important as well..
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13:21 <+due> Packing it  full of monsters doens't count?
13:21 <+Zaba> hm.. too easy to just sneak to the door and ignore the whole bunch, no?
13:21 <+due> There'll be monsters inside as well.
13:21 <+due> That will shout.
13:22 <+Zaba> ah, but you take a few steps, apport, teleport
13:22 <+due> True.
13:22 <+due> The whole body will be monster-filled, also.
13:25 <+due> Zaba: http://pastebin.ca/1757342
13:26 <+Zaba> due, the door could be on the left of the chamber, too.  Then the unused part of the tail would be much shorter.
13:27 <+due> Oh, truee.
13:27 <+Zaba> due, also, the tail could be cut (violence!) without reducing symmetry, I mean, look, it's not like the *head* is exactly symmetric.
13:28 <+due> Yeah, I am cutting it.
13:29 <+due> Looks much better now.
13:30 <+greensnark> due: How about an additional map based on the Staff of Asklepios?
13:30 <+greensnark> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius
13:30 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1757345
13:31 <+due> greensnark: Also a nice idea!
13:31 <+greensnark> Maybe a chance of secret doors in the 'c' behind which guardian serpents lurk?
13:31 <+greensnark> Don't know if there's enough thickness for that
13:32 <+greensnark> Can we have a giant serpent statue that comes to life or is that too Conan-the-Barbarian-y :P
13:32 <+due> I'm debating hollowing out under the neck and putting some sort of snake shrine in.
13:32 <+due> YES
13:32 <+due> No, no, that is perfect.
13:32 <+due> I like that a lot.
13:32 <+due> I think the whole thing needs to be in stone, though.
13:32 <+due> otherwise it's too spoilery.
13:35 <+due> Maybe a secret door is a bad idea.
13:36 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1757348
13:37 <+due> Zaba, greensnark?
13:37 <+greensnark> Ooh
13:37 <+greensnark> Can the Snake get eyes? :)
13:38 <+Zaba> due, too much free space that's easy to skip, IMO.
13:38 <+due> Yes, monsters.
13:38 <+Zaba> and hard to fill with things that aren't monotone and boring
13:38 <+due> Zaba: Okay, so dump the bit under the head?
13:38 <+Zaba> probably
13:38 <+greensnark> due: Why not provide corridors to connect it up with the rest, but with secret doors
13:39 <+Zaba> due, you could also make the hidden chamber and the entrance to the vault symmetric
13:39 <+greensnark> So you may be advancing down the sinuous neck and the secret doors come open and the greater naga swat team hits you
13:39 <+due> Hm.
13:39 <+due> Interesting idea.
13:40  * greensnark doesn't mind asymmetry.
13:40  * Zaba doesn't mind it when it fits
13:40 <+Zaba> I mean, I know that snakes don't have two heads, for example.
13:40 <+greensnark> What? Who told you that :P
13:41 <+greensnark> Of course they don't have two heads
13:41 <+greensnark> Look, behind you, a three-headed snake!
13:41 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1757351
13:41 <+due> Like that?
13:42 <+due> I don't like the central bit.
13:42 <+greensnark> due: Looks a bit like a swan now :P
13:42 <+due> Hm.
13:43 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1757352
13:45 <+greensnark> due: The shape is fine, but it needs some tactical options
13:45 <+greensnark> Right now it's a long winding dead-end corridor
13:45 <+due> For escape?
13:45 <+greensnark> We need baffles and multiple entrances to keep things interesting
13:45 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1757356
13:45 <+greensnark> For tactical maneuvering!
13:45 <+due> That is prettier.
13:45  * greensnark does not need to "escape" :P
13:46 <+due> I can't think of anywhere to place an alternate entrance that won't be a "use the other entrance always".
13:46 < Twinge> You could probably even use a few of these
13:47 <+greensnark> It doesn't have to be alternative entrances, but you do need something to maneuver around
13:47 <+greensnark> The classic Snake:5 has the big wall and passage behind the rune and pillars and folds near the entrance
13:47 <+greensnark> David's alternative has dual approaches or three approaches depending on the RNG
13:48 <+greensnark> It also has the ring wall in the outer chamber
13:49 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1757359
13:50 <+due> I'm not sure I like that.
13:50 <+due> Works as eyes, but nothing else.
13:50 <+greensnark> due: Doesn't have to be so many v in the neck
13:50 <+greensnark> The c in the tail are nice
13:50 <+greensnark> Myabe little diamond vs further spaced in the neck?
13:52 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1757362
13:54 <+greensnark> due: Works for me
13:54 <+greensnark> With greater nagas in the spaces in the diamond v :P
13:58 < Mu_> nooo living statues is my gimmick ;p
13:59 <+due> :D
14:00 <+due> Okay, needs monsters now.
14:03 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:04 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba_] by ChanServ
14:04 <+due> Zaba: wb
14:06 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1757380
14:06 <+due> Final layout.
14:07 <+due> Now, sleep.
14:08 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:08 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
14:08 <+due> A dpeg!
14:08 <@dpeg> cheers
14:08 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them.
14:08 <@dpeg> I'll be silent!
14:08 <@dpeg> d'oh
14:08 <+due> !tell dpeg http://pastebin.ca/1757380
14:08 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
14:08 <+due> ;0
14:08 <+due> Thoughts appreciated.
14:09 <@dpeg> looks good
14:09 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 5 messages. Use !messages to read them.
14:09 <@dpeg> but need to wait until there is a snaky layout generator
14:09 <@dpeg> !messages
14:09 < Henzell> (1/5) Cryp71c said (18h 49m 56s ago): Potentially closable bug report : http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=416
14:09 <@dpeg> !messages
14:09 < Henzell> (1/4) Cryp71c said (18h 36m 59s ago): Potentially closable bug report : http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=61
14:09 <@dpeg> !messages
14:09 < Henzell> (1/3) Cryp71c said (18h 27m 25s ago): Closable (Already Implemented) : http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=175
14:09 <@dpeg> !messages
14:09 < Henzell> (1/2) doy said (11h 38m 24s ago): bailey entrace monsters can get hand axes of reaching? really? d:
14:09 <@dpeg> oops
14:09 <@dpeg> !messages
14:09 < Henzell> (1/1) due said (1m 21s ago): http://pastebin.ca/1757380
14:11 <+due> Er.
14:12 <+due> Why is Cryptic sending all those to you?
14:12 < Ashenzari> Passive freeze mutation activates on weapon brands (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=469) by 78291
14:13 <@dpeg> due: so I can close!
14:13 < CIA-81> dpeg * r65c9bd1aa9d4 /crawl-ref/source/dat/bailey.des: No more hand axes of reaching in/near baileys (doy).
14:13 <+due> dpeg: Donald overhal! What do you think?
14:13 <@dpeg> absolutely awesome
14:13 <@dpeg> good speech
14:13 <@dpeg> very few cases a bit borderline but great personality :)
14:14 <@dpeg> !tell doy Thanks. Done!
14:14 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let doy know.
14:14 <+due> dpeg: Yeah, some of them might need to be tweakedd, though there are a few that I'm quit attached to. :)
14:15 <@dpeg> due: would it be possible to also have speech directed at player species?
14:15 <+due> Yes, I was thinking about that
14:15 <@dpeg> "You don't say anything! I hate that."
14:15 <+due> But thatwould mean rewriting the prefix engine specifically for Donald.
14:15 <+due> Which is probably going to be saner.
14:15 <+due> Otherwise you'd have to do "Naga No God Swamp Donald" and... it gets crazy.
14:15 <@dpeg> due: imps already use player species
14:15 <+due> Hm, they do, don't they.
14:16 <@dpeg> yes, that should be done in a different way
14:16 <@dpeg> due: why not simply take any line that is valid?
14:17 <@dpeg> e.g. if you are a godless Naga in Swamp, all of Donald's Swamp: and No god: and Naga: lines should kick in.
14:17 <@dpeg> And there could be a bunch of Any: lines, to be used all the time.
14:17 <@dpeg> unless you want speech that specifically targets godless nagas etc. :)
14:18 <@dpeg> but: silent! 
14:18 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
14:20 <+due> dpeg: Exactly.
14:20 <+due> dpeg: Hence what I meant about rewriting the prefix engine for Doonald
14:21 <+due> currently, it won't do that, because prefixes are stacked according to weight.
14:23 <@dpeg> due: yes, should use OR instead of AND
14:23 <+due> Yup.
14:23 <+due> Anyway, what lines didn't you particularly like?
14:24 <+due> About 70% are mine, the rest are from ##crawl-dev chatters :)
14:24 <@dpeg> some are a bit meta
14:25 <@dpeg> I will simply add more of my own, to drown the others out :)
14:25 <+due> Yeah. Some are meta, some are too meta.
14:25 -!- gal_bolle [n=gal_boll@193.49.83.114] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:25 <+due> :D
14:25 <+due> You can remove some if you're really unhappy with them.
14:26 <+due> I'll ask you to put them back in if they're lines I was super-attached to, though.
14:26 < CIA-81> due * r90dc25ccbb14 /crawl-ref/source/mon-gear.cc: Further Donald tweaks, use mon->shield().
14:26 <+due> Keskitalo: Shield changes are in, feel free to use that tile or a spiky haired one!
14:27 <+due> dpeg: The option was to go through the prefixes until we found a message, then stacsh that message somewhere, and keep going through until we get nothing; then randomly return one of the stashed messages.
14:27 <+due> I'm just unsure how  that would impact other things.
14:30 <@dpeg> due: yes, great. Is anything else using prefixes?
14:30 <+due> Yes, most evrything. :)
14:31 <+due> So, I'd need to ask on the list/jpeg/zelgadis about how it would impact.
14:32 <+due> "default fleeing silenced humanoid", etc.
14:32 <+due> If you're silenced, you don't wnat to pick up "default fleeing humanoid" at the same time.
14:33 <@dpeg> due: oh, those do use AND
14:33 <@dpeg> no need to ask
14:33 <@dpeg> so we need another type of prefix
14:33 <+due> Yeah.
14:34 <+due> Well, actually, it shouldn't be too bad.
14:34 <+due> We could just prioritise prefixes..
14:34 <+due> "Exclusive" or "essential" perfixes, perhaps, like "fleeing", "confused", "silenced"--they must be present.
14:34 <+due> And "optional" prefixes: collate these lines, but don't stop just at them.
14:35 <+due> Anyway, sleep time. Goodnight!
14:37 <@dpeg> night!
14:52 < CIA-81> dolorous * r4ec1662cbdb8 /crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Add a few miscellaneous fixes to Donald's speech.
15:00 < gal_bolle> for orc followers, what about making lost followers randomly (but quite rarely) pop-up at the edge of los. The rationale would be that they are looking for you and eventually found you. That way, you don't have/want to go looking for them. Maybe the return rate would be dependent on piety, so that it's better to go on pleasing beogh than to travel back to them.
15:03 <@dpeg> gal_bolle: what about lost followers on other levels?
15:05 < gal_bolle> it would be for them
15:05 < gal_bolle> i was thinking of inter-level travel
15:06 < gal_bolle> it's like a passive recall orcs if you want
15:07 <@dpeg> yes, but that is probably not good
15:08 < gal_bolle> do you have a precise reason in mind?
15:08 <+greensnark> Maybe Beogh should be much more aggressive about protecting orcs
15:08 <+greensnark> And there should be much fewer conversions
15:09 <+greensnark> Like 1/10 the current conversion rate, upped if you have no followers
15:09 <+greensnark> That way you can focus more on individuals rather than seething masses of orcs
15:09 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:09 <@dpeg> holla, a green snark
15:09 <+greensnark> A lobster :)
15:10 <@dpeg> greensnark: but that'd mean you could have ****** piety and there would be lousy plain orcs who won't follow?
15:10 <@dpeg> Blasphemy!
15:10 < AceTetra> writhing masses of orcs
15:10 <@dpeg> greensnark: my proposal (on rgrm) was that the Beoghite sets a number of apostles, and those will travel with him
15:11 <@dpeg> abd Beogh should protect them better, and they'd be more clever about finding their ways
15:11  * dpeg <3 apostles
15:13 <@dpeg> !seen caotto
15:13 < Henzell> Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen caotto.
15:13 <@dpeg> timecircuits: are you caotto?
15:13 <+greensnark> pointless is caotto
15:13 <@dpeg> nicks, they are driving me insane :)
15:13 <@dpeg> thanks
15:13 < timecircuits> ...caotto?
15:13 <@dpeg> timecircuits: who are you? :)
15:13 < timecircuits> …me?
15:14 <@dpeg> !tell pointless New Fedhas is pure love. Great work, just got a KeFE to XL 14, used Growth+Evolution in two crucial spots.
15:14 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let pointless know.
15:14 <@dpeg> timecircuits: If I didn't know for sure that you're one of the good guys, I'd kick you for that :P
15:25 <+greensnark> ##crawl-dev is beyond good and evil
15:28 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:29 <@dpeg> that should be: ##crawl-dev is beyond evil and Really Evil
15:31 < timecircuits> …for what?!
15:31  * timecircuits very confused
15:32 < timecircuits> I've fallen off the map for a month or so; I have no idea what's been going on.
15:32 < CIA-81> dolorous * r925555a34bae /crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Fix typo.
15:32 < CIA-81> dolorous * r9e930d4290e0 /crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Add a few more Donald complaints.
15:35 <@dpeg> timecircuits: everything is different!
15:35 <+greensnark> timecircuits: dpeg was just kidding
15:36 <+greensnark> timecircuits: It's German humour, takes a while to get the jokes :P
15:36 <@dpeg> timecircuits: if you have the time, organise yourself at least a wizmode char and go to Lair and Shoals.
15:36 <@dpeg> timecircuits: expect some hours for Oooh and Wows
15:36 <@dpeg> greensnark: ain't no good German joke without violence involved!
15:36 < timecircuits> ooh, Lair got upgraded?
15:38 <+greensnark> Kiss kiss bang bang
15:38 <+greensnark> No wait, that's Dowan and Duvessa
15:40 <@dpeg> Bonnie and Clyde!
15:42 < Ashenzari> weird shallow water tile (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=470) by Jinhlk
15:43 <+by> timecircuits = Alex MacDonald?
15:44 <@dpeg> Nobody escapes the German thoroughness!
15:49 < AceTetra> The German joke industry has been slow to recover, ever since joke warfare was banned during the Geneva Convention.
15:50 <@dpeg> AceTetra: yes, the obvious response being guerilla jokes
15:50 < AceTetra> Many humorists gave in to their curiosity, and thus fell victim to the killing joke.
15:50 <@dpeg> :)
15:52 <@dpeg> however, I am not sure if killing with bad jokes is really worse than killing by broad grin (USA)
15:52 < Ashenzari> Need the scroll of sunshine (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=471) by Jinhlk
15:53 <@dpeg> bad idea
15:54 <@dpeg> I told you, items in deep water are problematic
15:55 <@dpeg> I wonder that nobody complained how Sunshine is supposed to work: if you evaporate a pool of deep water, there should be a pool left, eh?
15:56 < TGW> what does sunshine cost?
15:56 < TGW> to invoke... decent amount of food?
15:57 < TGW> I'm sort of worried about the whole "piety-free evaporation" thing
15:57 <@dpeg> 2 MP
15:57 <@dpeg> why?
15:57 <@dpeg> they can dry up the whole Swamp -- why not?
15:57 < TGW> it just seems problematic to be -- yeah, that
15:58 < TGW> it's tedious and it removes all the swampiness
15:59 <@dpeg> well, it is a god
15:59 <@dpeg> some gods make certain branches easier
16:00 < TGW> sure, I'm not saying you should remove tso
16:00 < TGW> (well, or fed)
16:01 < AceTetra> i support drying, burning, and completely obliterating the swamp in order to play it easier
16:01 < AceTetra> i like to dig the pillars to make land
16:01 < TGW> acetetra: you should play the new swamp
16:01 < TGW> it's the same but you can walk now
16:01 < TGW> dpeg: but it's like digging out every level, if anyone wanted to do that
16:01 < AceTetra> actually, with my latest rc tweaks, swamp isn't even irritating at all
16:02 <+doy> !messages
16:02 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (1h 48m 52s ago): Thanks. Done!
16:03 <@dpeg> TGW: Swamp will have no items at some point, so I don't see what should be the problem.
16:04 < AceTetra> the irritating part of swamp, for me, wasn't stopping for items. i turned that off anyway. it was the water color inversion on the level map that was really annoying
16:04 <@dpeg> AceTetra: TGW's point is that the presence of items warrants full exploration.
16:05 < AceTetra> oh yeah, shops too
16:05 < TGW> it's not
16:05 < TGW> my point is that it's extremely abusive to be able to just remove the terrain
16:06 < AceTetra> it is also extremely fun
16:06 < TGW> everything flies, is amphibious/aquatic, confuses you, etc etc
16:07 < TGW> one isn't making the branch easier, one is just missing the point
16:07 <@dpeg> TGW: Kiku renders Tomb moot -- so what?
16:08 < TGW> kiku renders tomb less difficult, passively
16:09 < TGW> I wonder, would it break anything if it took a turn to drown?
16:10 <@dpeg> they don't drown at once
16:10 -!- Spads [n=spacehob@unaffiliated/spads] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
16:10 < TGW> hm?
16:10 < TGW> are we talking about ice form?
16:11 <@dpeg> no, I wasn'
16:11 <@dpeg> t
16:12 < TGW> what is the "they?"
16:12 <@dpeg> water monsters whose habitat was stolen by Sunshine
16:12 < TGW> oh, yeah
16:12 < TGW> you can cut them off though
16:13 <@dpeg> Upgrading 1 fungi to wandering mushroom  (piety cost)
16:13 < AceTetra> i already enjoy drying fountains with jellyfish in them, so this is even better
16:13 <@dpeg> TGW: if it's too bad, we can fix it in a number of ways
16:14 <@dpeg> (one of them being that you cannot turn deep water into floor, only into shallow water)
16:14 < TGW> <3
16:15 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:15 < Mu_> the water evaporates and reforms as a titan!
16:16 < Mu_> dpeg is kiku finished or still undergoing changes
16:16 -!- Spads [n=spacehob@unaffiliated/spads] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:18 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@88-148-219-170.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:20 <@dpeg> Mu_: no idea
16:20 < Cryp71c> Can shoals replace Snake now?
16:20 <+doy> Cryp71c: yes
16:20 < Mu_> yeah
16:20 < Cryp71c> cool
16:21 <@dpeg> I still love the idea of a god with constant piety who cares for summons, but that could also be a new god.
16:21 <+doy> i liked the pact god idea
16:21 <+doy> but same
16:22 <@dpeg> doy: it occurred to me late (after the original proposal) that a pact god makes most sense for a summoner playing style.
16:22 <+doy> dpeg: how so?
16:28 <@dpeg> doy: well, you pay with HP, so you don't want to stand in the first row anyway.
16:29 <+doy> ah, true
16:29 <@dpeg> setting up oklob forts is so damn satisfying
16:31 < TGW> don't let lemuel know
16:31 < syllogism> how come we dont have acid clouds yet
16:31 < TGW> syllogism: because the devs don't hate us enough
16:32 <+doy> eronarn suggested mutagenic clouds
16:32 <+doy> (:
16:32 < syllogism> uh?
16:33 <+kilobyte> doy: already in
16:33 <+doy> kilobyte: really?
16:33 < TGW> doy: yeah
16:33 < syllogism> he is thinking like freezing cloud the spell, i think?
16:33 <+doy> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:demon
16:33 <+doy> magenta death at the bottom there
16:33 <+doy> is what i was referring to
16:34 < syllogism> yeah we were referring to fog gens
16:36 <+doy> does anything use mutagenic clouds yet?
16:36 < syllogism> some random vault and a wizlab
16:38 < TGW> I submitted a xom overflow that uses it but dpeg is sitting on it
16:38 < TGW> also, evap mutation uses it
16:42 < Cryp71c> .... "A meltable icy envelope protects you from harm (AC+10)." ?
16:46 < MarvinPA> that mutation is awesome
16:47 < Cryp71c> MarvinPA, it seems kinda cool except vs flame anything
16:47 < MarvinPA> yeah :P
16:47 < Cryp71c> but yeah, 10 AC is nice
16:47 < MarvinPA> the tier 3 ice muts seem a lot cooler than the fire ones
16:48 < Cryp71c> MarvinPA, I havn't gotten fire muts once, but I've gotten the ice muts about 8 times
16:48 <+doy> ice in general is a lot cooler than fire
16:48 < MarvinPA> yeah same here
16:48 < Cryp71c> Muwahahah the +2 pair of boots "Noofif" (worn) {rPois rF++ rN+} for 200g in a shop
16:48 < MarvinPA> that's kinda weird actually
16:48 <+doy> the only cool fire thing is sticky flame, pretty much
16:48 < TGW> doy: was that a pun
16:49 <+greensnark> doy: "ice in general is a lot cooler than fire" <-- I was about to shoot you for the bad pun of the day
16:49 < MarvinPA> do you get that? the wiki says it's throw flame, rF+, hellfire/conserve scrolls
16:49 <+greensnark> Or what TGW said :P
16:49 <+doy> yes, but also serious
16:49 <+doy> (:
16:49 < Cryp71c> MarvinPA, yeah, and?
16:49 < MarvinPA> oh sorry i thought doy was still speaking in terms of demonspawn fire things
16:49 <+doy> MarvinPA: nope, fire in general is pretty boring
16:50 < MarvinPA> yeah, i guess so
16:50 < AceTetra> fire is mostly boring because none of it can compare to the absolute hilarity of sticky flame
16:50 < MarvinPA> some of the high level fire spells look cool but i've never got anyone able to cast them
16:50 < syllogism> hellfire mutation does pretty nice damage 
16:50 < Cryp71c> hrm.
16:51 < syllogism> but costs one third of your hp to use or something ridiculous like that
16:51 < Cryp71c> +2 plate mail or +1 plate mail of FR
16:51 <+doy> it seems like its niche is supposed to be "lots of damage", but that's earth's niche
16:51 < Cryp71c> I have 35 AC atm
16:51 <+doy> so...
16:51 < Cryp71c> and rF+ would give me rF+++
16:51 < AceTetra> if there were an icicles in your enemy's pants spell, and it made a bunch of message spam about how your victim is still so cold, most of ice would look pretty boring too
16:51 <+doy> Cryp71c: ##crawl is --> that way
16:51 < Cryp71c> doy, gahahha! thanks
16:51 < AceTetra> Cryp71c: i colored the channel windows differently to stop myself from doing that
16:52 < Cryp71c> AceTetra, yeah I probably aught to. I've done it 3 times in 2 days
16:52 <@dpeg> I am off
16:52 < Cryp71c> dpeg, nope, you're still on
16:52 < Cryp71c> ; )
16:53 < MarvinPA> are the fire and ice mutation sets supposed to be mutually exclusive?
16:54 < MarvinPA> oh so they are, according to the wiki
16:54 < Cryp71c> MarvinPA, yeppers
16:54 < MarvinPA> but it doesn't work currently
16:55 -!- eith [n=eith@86-40-245-49-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:55 < Cryp71c> MarvinPA, eh? I've never gotten both mut sets
16:55 < Cryp71c> technical question, if I have that +10AC ice mut and rF+++
16:56 < Cryp71c> should the ice mut ever melt
16:56 <+doy> yes, rf+++ isn't immunity
16:56 < syllogism> yes
16:56 < Cryp71c> oh, ok
16:56 < AceTetra> Cryp71c: oh, you're using xchat. i only know about mirc :/
16:56 < MarvinPA> me neither, but i just generated a few demonspawn characters in a debug build and one of them is getting passive freeze and throw hellfire
16:56 < Cryp71c> AceTetra, yeah, i <3 xchat
16:56 < syllogism> even if it was immunity it should melt
16:56 <+doy> true enough
16:58 < TGW> syllogism: rF raises the melting point of water
16:58 < AceTetra> let's not bring physics into this
16:58 < Cryp71c> Yeah, perhaps it should still melt, but a rate reflective of your rF?
16:58 < AceTetra> my anti-magic-piracy Trog was silly enough
16:59 <+doy> Cryp71c: i don't think so
16:59 < Cryp71c> Because ATM, even 1 silly orc wizard shooting 1 flame melts the AC from 10 to 0 in only a few turns.
16:59 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r9c30aa170536 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Implement activity interrupt for error messages.
16:59 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r18ced1057e7d /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Implement dumping of last messages in character dump.
16:59 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r3cabc03d50d0 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Implement message saving and restoring.
16:59 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r8d83e26dfd4f /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Update todo list.
16:59 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r2a6d60d934f5 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Enable more().
16:59 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r8fc2d176c006 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: More prompts for full window (in case of clear_messages=true).
16:59 <+doy> Cryp71c: keep in mind that +10ac is quite strong
16:59 < Cryp71c> doy, yeah I know :P
16:59 < TGW> cryp71c: you are not ice
16:59 < TGW> rF = you can resist fire
16:59 < TGW> not "fire doesn't exit"
17:00 < TGW> rather, fire don exits
17:02 <+greensnark> What exit does the Fire Don use
17:02 <+greensnark> How do you get to be a Fire Don anyway
17:03 < Spads> you anger the Fire Zorro
17:03 < TGW> you advance in the fire mafia
17:03 < AceTetra> you set something on fire, and a guy recognizes your talent. then you move up from there.
17:04 < Cryp71c> lol AceTetra 
17:04 < AceTetra> it's a good way to get a lot of jobs actually. when in doubt, set something on fire.
17:04 <+greensnark> Like a tent?
17:05 < Spads> sometimes you get asked to take some fire from one address to another
17:05 < AceTetra> OOTS rules and i will be so sad when Belkar splats
17:05 < Spads> so long as you don't open the envelope, they know you're trustworthy
17:06 < AceTetra> i briefly considered filing a bug report, requesting that goblins should be green and hobgoblins should be orange by default
17:07 < Cryp71c> Hrmm...wierd hive layout...
17:09 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r139300ccba99 /crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Move Options.show_more_prompt to crawl_state.show_more_prompt.
17:09 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r9880a2e31d47 /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/bailey.des dat/database/monspeak.txt mon-gear.cc): Merge branch 'master' into messagewindow
17:11 -!- gal_bolle [n=gal_boll@193.49.83.114] has left ##crawl-dev []
17:14 < Cryp71c> :( can't get to loot in hive, wtb fireball wand
17:19 < TGW> ##crawl is about half a mile due north
17:20 < Cryp71c> All the cool people are in dev
17:24 < AceTetra> Cryp71c: it is six pieces of loot. the whole thing is just a death trap anyway.
17:24 < Cryp71c> AceTetra, in the new hive layout I havn't found any more than 2, one hidden on either side of the vault
17:24 < AceTetra> slime has a better reward/risk ratio than the stupid hive pond
17:24 <+doy> Cryp71c: but this is ##crawl-dev, not ##crawl-coolpeople
17:24 < AceTetra> oh, new hive nm
17:24 <+doy> you can make that if you want
17:24 <+doy> but it's not here
17:24 < Cryp71c> doy, really? I think the two are synonymous
17:25 <+doy> Cryp71c: really, it's not
17:25 < Cryp71c> really, 1 message is less than all the other non-sense spam that's going on here.
17:26 < TGW> x is broken, therefore break y too
17:26 < AceTetra> i only said what i said about the hive just now because it might have some relevance to how hive should be developed
17:27 < AceTetra> just being sad about not getting across isn't very good dev info
17:27 <+greensnark> Hey, dolorous is back in action
17:34 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-158-175.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:34 < syllogism> spring cleaning?
17:35 < cbus> sup
17:35 < TGW> what's the point of item destruction again?
17:38 < cbus> tgw, don't make the user bitch about weight carrying issues ;)
17:38 < TGW> it seems you could keep all of the intended effects through less annoying means though
17:38 < TGW> people already don't lug around their whole stash because of the item cap and weight cap
17:39 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-171-133.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:39 < TGW> item generation can be changed if consumables are too common
17:39 < eith> its to limit resources in dangerous places, so you cant just carry your whole stash, which some people do try
17:39 < TGW> and in places where it's relevant, you can implement it manually
--- Log closed Tue Jan 19 17:41:20 2010
--- Log opened Tue Jan 19 17:41:33 2010
17:41 -!- kilobyte [n=kilobyte@89.206.35.133] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:41 -!- Irssi: ##crawl-dev: Total of 41 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 6 voices, 33 normal]
17:41 -!- violetj [n=violetj@69.25.196.245] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:41 < TGW> like, tie it to hell effects or whatever, rather than the odd puff of flame/frost
17:41 -!- rax_ [n=rax@autumnfox.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:41 -!- Irssi: Join to ##crawl-dev was synced in 14 secs
17:42 -!- doy [n=doy@69.25.196.247] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:42 < eith> what is actually wrong with item destruction though? its very much a part of roguelikes
17:43 < Ashenzari> Add a health bar to the player icon (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=472) by evktalo
17:43 < eith> even rogue has rust monsters
17:43 < TGW> eith: not "item destruction" in general, perhaps I'm being unclear
17:43 < TGW> the way mottled dragons et al. make you play is incredibly stupid
17:44 < TGW> there should never be a question of enormous tedium vs enormous advantage
17:44 < eith> mottled dragons are irrvelevant, did you see what they did before they were nerfed? they barely kill any scrolls now
17:44 < doy> TGW: i wouldn't call it enormous tedium
17:45 < TGW> doy: finding cover, dropping all scrolls, killing, picking up all scrolls
17:45 < eith> i dont even drop scrolls for them, theres not really any point
17:45 < eith> you might lose 2
17:45 < TGW> if the dragon is awake you're going to drop stacks in a specific order, which is even worse
17:47 < TGW> and while I mean no disrespect, I don't think "eith is lazy" is an argument
17:48 < AceTetra> i agree with TGW about the whole drop-scrolls-in-order routine. maybe a scroll_dump_order option would be nice
17:48 < eith> well im just saying your creating the tedium =p when theres no need really, its epic min-maxing for very little benefit
17:48 < TGW> "very little benefit" is often every single blinking scroll in my possession
17:49 < eith> how come i dont have these problems?
17:51 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-158-34.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
17:51 -!- by [n=rob@g225108062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
17:52 < AceTetra> maybe because you play less, or you're playing trunk, or you simply don't care when it happens
17:52 < AceTetra> i do like that crawl tells you items were destroyed, but not which items
17:52 <+greensnark> All your items merely have a *probability* of being destroyed until you actually check
17:53 < doy> (:
17:53 <+greensnark> I also do not have a problem with item destruction
17:54 < AceTetra> I can't quaff possible potions! I need actual potions! Damn you, quantum physics!
17:54 <+Keskitalo> Say hi to Donald http://bugi.oulu.fi/~evktalo/crawl/donald.png
17:55 < cbus> thats not donald
17:55 < cbus> that looks like some freakish anime char with spiky hailr
17:55 <+greensnark> Can we start using SVG icons? :)
17:55  * cbus hides
17:55 <+Keskitalo> cbus: He whines in trunk, doesn't that fit well?
17:55 < TGW> he complains about the branch?
17:55 < TGW> oh god yes <3
17:55 < TGW> is the speech online somewhere?
17:56 <+Keskitalo> What, don't you have a local git repo clone already? ;)
17:56 < AceTetra> Keskitalo: some of us are still lazy, clueless windows users
17:56 <+Keskitalo> The repo is actually browsable online as well, so yeah.
17:56 <+Keskitalo> AceTetra: Just like me! <3
17:57 < AceTetra> by that i mean me, not accusing TGW of anything
17:57 < TGW> no, I'm also a lazy, clueless windows user
17:57 < AceTetra> is it searchable online? windows's search has some lovely quirks
17:57 <+greensnark> http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt;hb=HEAD
17:57 < cbus> keskitalo, whines about his spiky hair? :D
17:58 <+Keskitalo> cbus: Probably!
17:58 < cbus> nice :)
17:59 <+Keskitalo> And about ducks.
17:59 < TGW> greensnark <3
17:59 < TGW> 1765 @The_monster@ says, "Orcs complain a lot, don't they? I hate it."
18:00 <+Keskitalo> Ooh, I haven't read all of that yet.
18:00 < TGW> and about how there aren't any miners :P
18:00 < TGW> 1785 @The_monster@ says, "These orcs are so stupid, they must've eaten the rune."
18:00 < TGW> ahahahaha, who wrote these?
18:01 < cbus> the rune one is nice :)
18:01 < cbus> greensnark, should I win my char on CDO?
18:01 < cbus> or should I suicide it?
18:02 < TGW> the greek line is great
18:02 < cbus> which one?
18:02 < TGW> 1879 @The_monster@ says, "I don't understand half of what these people say. It's all Greek to me."
18:02 < TGW> for shoals
18:02 < cbus> that one is so boring :(
18:02 < cbus> makes me sad
18:03 < TGW> ?
18:06 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * raf27f256035b /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (UNUSED/monsters/donald.png dc-mon/unique/donald.png): New Donald tile (with Jude).
18:06 < TGW> 1953 @The_monster@ says, "There's a difference between guardian serpents and nagas? I never noticed."
18:06 < TGW> 1955 @The_monster@ says, "Brown snakes? Black snakes? Grey snakes? This guide is useless!"
18:07 < TGW> for tso worshippers: 2132 @The_monster@ says, "I think I'll have a nap."
18:08 < doy> i'm not sure i like stuff that's this meta
18:08 < TGW> kikubaaqudgha: 2156 @The_monster@ says, "At least you'll get some reading material."
18:08 < doy> for actual in-game content
18:08 < TGW> doy: are you kidding? it's awesome
18:09 < TGW> it's just speech, there's no harm if you don't get it
18:09 < TGW> and most of it is hilarious
18:09 < TGW> 2196 @The_monster@ says, "Oh, hey! I could use a new animal skin. Have you got any spares?"
18:12 <+Keskitalo> "Ah. You're responsible for all those zombies upstairs." :D
18:12 < cbus> btw, autoexplore keeps picking upp "oStasis
18:12 < cbus> how many do I need? :)
18:12 < AceTetra> i kind of agree with doy, it sounds like donald should be talking to the bug tracker instead of the player for a lot of those
18:12 <+Zaba_> such speech is kind of an inside joke
18:13 < TGW> 2436 @The_monster@ says, "Tummy is such a puerile word."
18:14 < doy> i mean, that last one there is referencing some obscure part of a god description for a god that hasn't even been in an actual release yet, and that part of the description was reworded after just a couple weeks
18:14 < TGW> 2547 @The_monster@ says, "I think I hate rivers, but I can't remember why."
18:15 < TGW> doy: I don't see why it's a problem
18:15 < doy> i like the concept of him commenting on branches, gods, etc, but it would be better if he would stick to things that made sense in-game
18:16 <+Keskitalo> I do think the speech should be at least up to date.
18:17 < TGW> if you remove the lethe comment I'm quitting
18:17 < doy> TGW: that one i'm okay with
18:17 < doy> because it's actually referencing something in-game
18:17 < doy> and that actually makes sense
18:18 <+Keskitalo> How about, for Elly: "Pacification.. more like chaosbringer!" and "Nobody likes a pacifist!"
18:18 < TGW> what do you have a problem with, then? just "tummy"?
18:18 < Mu_> lethe one was mine :D
18:18 <+Keskitalo> "More you talk about peace, the more everyone is punching each other."
18:18 < doy> TGW: talking about animal skins when referencing oka
18:19 < Mu_> i'm sure due would be willing to prune down
18:19 < doy> talking about black snakes/brown snakes/etc
18:19 <+Keskitalo> That was funny to me, but I agree it's out of place. The "moccasin" bit makes the same reference and still makes sense. :)
18:20 < doy> i agree that it's funny, that doesn't mean that it belongs in the game(:
18:20 <+Keskitalo> yeah :)
18:20 < cbus> I have a theoretical question
18:21 < cbus> what happens if a shape shifter slime creature merges with a normal one?
18:21 < cbus> :D
18:21 < doy> try it!
18:21 < doy> (:
18:21 < cbus> don't have a bulid ready :(
18:21 < TGW> I don't get the objection to the snakes and skins
18:21 < TGW> pretty much anybody who has played 0.5 would get it
18:22 < doy> right, that's my point
18:22 <+Keskitalo> TGW: It'll get really obscure by 0.8 and mean nothing to people who start with 0.6.
18:22 < doy> especially if we happen to change how acquirement works by 0.7 or something
18:22 < Mu_> if you don't get the reference it just sounds like someone sold him a vague travel guide
18:23 < Mu_> doesn't seem that bad
18:23 < cbus> thats the funny part imo
18:23 < cbus> that it will get obscured later :)
18:23 < doy> but if you do get the reference, it breaks immersion somewhat
18:23 < cbus> and only the old farts will remember
18:23 < cbus> ?? sixfirhy
18:23 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled sixfirhy in my learndb.
18:23 < cbus> is that like sixfifty?
18:23 < cbus> @?? sixfirhy
18:23 < Gretell> sixfirhy (4) | Speed: 30 (move: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 2/20 | Damage: 12(elec) | Flags: demonic | Res: magic(48) | XP: 260.
18:24 < cbus> whats a sixfifty?
18:24 <+Keskitalo> cbus: Ask timecircuit's cat.
18:24 <+Zaba_> as dpeg once mentioned, old versions of the game never existed from the point of view of the game universe, I'm pretty sure he did mention it, oh well
18:24 < TGW> I find it hard to believe that a cat could type sixfirhy
18:24 < cbus> they do anything special?
18:24 < doy> Zaba_: yes, exactly
18:24 < TGW> zaba_: but it still makes sense
18:24 <+Zaba_> TGW, somebody sold him a guide with snakes being called as they used to in previous game versions.  Does not make sense.
18:26 < TGW> and an uninformed okawarite doesn't even have to recognize it as a joke
18:26 < TGW> you can just say "no, sorry, donald" and go on with your life
18:26 <+Zaba_> TGW, the problem isn't that old players will get the joke and new ones won't, the problem is that the joke is not exactly appropriate for the game universe.
18:26 < doy> TGW: my point is that it's more problematic for people who do recognize it as a joke
18:27 < doy> for people who don't, it's just meaningless
18:27 < cbus>  o - a +2,+5 triple sword of holy wrath (weapon) {god gift}
18:27 < cbus> -You open the sixfirhy like a pillowcase!!! You kill the sixfirhy!
18:27 < cbus> die you coin change
18:27 < TGW> every single unique has a bunch of non sequiturs, there's no reason everyone should understand everything donald says
18:27 < doy> TGW: they do?
18:27 < doy> like what?
18:28 < TGW> pick any of the uniques without personality
18:29 < AceTetra> even psyche's lines make sense, so i dunno what lines you're referring to
18:29 < doy> TGW: like what?
18:29 < TGW> one moment
18:31 < Mu_> if any speech should be removed it's tame humanoids rickrolling you
18:31 < TGW> yeah that :P
18:31 < doy> Mu_: yeah, i'm not thrilled with that one either
18:31 < TGW> and everything terence says
18:31 <+Keskitalo> Hee hee.
18:31 < TGW> 5483 @The_monster@ asks @foe,@ "Do you want it fast or slow?"
18:31 < TGW> 5503 @The_monster@ says @to_foe@, "How do you enjoy it?"
18:32 < Twinge-> @The_monster@ says, "Slime for the Slime God!"
18:32 < doy> TGW: okay, those have the "meaningless" part down
18:32 < doy> they don't have the "problematic" part that i was talking about though
18:32 <+Zaba_> what's the problem with "How do you enjoy it?"
18:32 < TGW> on a completely unrelated note, 5611 The death cob makes a corny joke.
18:32 <+Zaba_> it's not like it refers to some feature that was removed in 0.1..
18:32 < doy> Zaba_: exactly
18:33 < TGW> what was removed in 0.1?
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18:37 < TGW> who implemented donald's speech?
18:37 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-171-133.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
18:38 < Twinge> @The_monster@ says @to_foe@, "Odis was a nice man, you're awful."
18:39 <+greensnark> TGW: due 
18:40 < TGW> and yeah, how is referring to the odyssey okay but the game itself not?
18:40 < doy> that one's something of a grey area
18:40 < doy> since shoals is explicitly vaguely themed around that
18:41 < doy> probably shouldn't have direct references though
18:41 < doy> shrug
18:41 <@dpeg> hey, is it kicking time againß
18:41 < cbus> -The deep elf master archer shouts! The deep elf master archer wields a runed elven longbow. The deep elf master archer shoots a glowing elven arrow. The glowing elven arrow hits you! You blink!
18:41 < TGW> 4833 @The_monster@ says, "Study your classics!'
18:41 < TGW> nessos
18:41 < Twinge> Nessos - @The_monster@ says, "I schooled the Big Guy. You'll be no problem."  <-- I don't even get that one myself, but its clearly referencing something 
18:42 < TGW> dpeg: I think we're good
18:42 < doy> dpeg: just discussing what sorts of things are appropriate for monster speech
18:42 < doy> some of the donald stuff that went in last night is potentially problematic
18:43 <@dpeg> doy: agree on too-meta speech for Donald (already talked to Jude about it, it's not much)
18:43 < TGW> dpeg: which parts?
18:43 < TGW> I'd be willing to concede "tummy," but I think the snake renaming reference is benign
18:44 < Twinge> Agree.
18:45 <+greensnark> Twinge: That Nessos line is odd
18:45 <+greensnark> Chiron saying that would make more sense, but he's not in Crawl
18:46 <@dpeg> Centaurs were teachers of several Greek heros, no?
18:46 <+greensnark> Chiron was, not Nessos
18:46 < TGW> wiki says he killed heracles posthumously
18:46 <+greensnark> That I can recall
18:46 <+greensnark> Chiron was supposed to have taught Achilles
18:47 <+greensnark> And Herakles, for that matter
18:47 < cbus> cursed ring of the ancients
18:47 < cbus> is it a fixed art?
18:47 <@dpeg> I suggest that everyone who wants to remove a Donald speech line brings up replacement. And no, not here.
18:47 < Mu_> there is currently a donald page on the wiki
18:47 <@dpeg> very good!
18:47 <+greensnark> Or email due, who's point man on Donald
18:47 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * re2d8c6792e84 /crawl-ref/source/wiz-mon.cc: Fix wizmode created ghosts (&m ghost) not being handled correctly.
18:48 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r0c7441d0a51d /crawl-ref/source/ (21 files): Rename several functions involving player "class" to "job".
18:48 < Mu_> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:donald if anyone wants a link
18:48 < TGW> how do we feel about the okawaru fruit line?
18:49 < doy> the nessos line is probably referring to nessos being the one who killed hercules
18:49 <@dpeg> Of course, Donald speech is nothing to get worked up about.
18:50 <@dpeg> The big points are: AC nerf; fate of DS; god testing.
18:50 <@dpeg> People just love to get drowned in meaningless details.
18:51 <+greensnark> doy: Well, he only manages that after he dies :P
18:52 <+greensnark> Is AC change finalised
18:52 < doy> true enough
18:53 < Twinge> dpeg: Well to be fair, the tiny details are a big appeal of rogue-likes to me and I imagine to many others.  Not saying the big issues aren't more important, but the little stuff does have importance too!
18:54 <@dpeg> Twinge: yes, but I can sneak in fundamental changes without anyone noting. And a trivial change can cause week-long flamewars.
18:54 <@dpeg> greensnark: I re-made the AC wiki page. It's all there now.
18:54 <+greensnark> Bikeshed factor :)
18:54 < Twinge> Haha.
18:55 < doy> well, there's also the aspect of people tending to agree with your fundamental changes
18:55 < doy> (:
18:55 < doy> enough people anyway
18:56 < TGW> it's too much work to complain about fundamental changes
18:56 < TGW> I'd have to actually read the new formula and do some math
18:57 < TGW> it's easier to yell at doy about inconsequential things
18:58 <@dpeg> doy: well, I think it'd be good to have a good discussion about basic principles :)
18:58 < Twinge> Yeah, it's easier to understand and have an opinion on the small stuff.  I love working with game balance, but I don't currently have a good enough feel of the AC/EV/SH system as it is now to feel that I have a reliable opinion on how to change it, so I haven't commented there.
18:59 <@dpeg> Aizul would have killed me if it were not for the bible protecting my heart.
18:59 <@dpeg> erm, the amulet of GS
19:01 < cbus> dpeg, the autoexplore tends to pick up multiple "oStasis
19:01 < cbus> dpeg, have you tried what happens if a slime creature shape shifter merges with a normal one (is that even possible?)
19:01 < cbus> might be a possible crash :)
19:02 < cbus> (alot of vague wording there but I haven't tried myself and I don't know wizmode enough to try it without asking how to generate the said shape shifter)
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19:04 <@dpeg> cbus: the first one is a bug! Report!! The second probably leads to a crash :)
19:04 < cbus> dpeg, the first one might be fixed, I'll report next time it happens
19:06 < cbus> dpeg, let me know the result if you try the slime creature thing :)
19:06 <@dpeg> cbus: will be a rare event (meeting of slime and shifter)
19:06 < cbus> dpeg, yeah, I had one of those in elven halls (but not a slime creature)
19:06 < cbus> only the slime shaped shifter
19:06 < cbus> isn't it possible to force a shape shifter with that shape in wiz mode?
19:08 <@dpeg> hm, I am not a wizard mode wizard
19:08 <@dpeg> ha, me fighting Aizul
19:08 <@dpeg> step 1: two oklobs =)
19:09 <@dpeg>  Your oklob plant falls asleep!
19:09 <@dpeg> :/
19:10 < cbus> nice bug :)
19:11 <@dpeg> Something is being crushed. (x2)
19:11 <@dpeg> What is this?
19:12 <@dpeg> wow, Aizul, Kirke and the balrug guy
19:12 < doy> new anaconda attack description, flavor only for now i think
19:12 < doy> probably shouldn't be noticable from out of los though
19:13 < TGW> I just tested
19:13 < TGW> the shifter and the real slime refuse to merge
19:14 < AceTetra> i wonder what ought to happen if a slime shifter merges with a real slime, and then changes into a scorpion or something
19:14 < AceTetra> The gigantic slime thing bursts! You feel queasy.
19:16 < Cryp71c> Hrm, I'm kind of finding the EV mut to be a waste, has anyone else found it to be more useful than an AC mut, or any other mut?
19:16 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-156-50.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:16 < TGW> acetetra: I just told you
19:16 < TGW> hm
19:17 < TGW> I wonder if two slime shaped shifters would merge
19:17 < TGW> but there's no way in hell I'm testing that
19:17 < Cryp71c> lol
19:20 < AceTetra> "<TGW> acetetra: I just told you" <- dunno what you're referring to there
19:20 < TGW> shifters don't merge with real slimes
19:20 < AceTetra> yeah, and then i was replying to that, like "what if they did, then changed again?"
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19:29 < Cryp71c> Twinge, troubles?
19:32 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-171-133.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
19:32 < Cryp71c> Apparently..
19:32 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-172-52.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:33 < TGW> the shapeshifting diffuses
19:33 < TGW> they split again and you get two shapeshifters
19:35 <+Zaba_> cool
19:35 < TGW> @cateater
19:38 < AceTetra> whot
19:40 < TGW> ok there is no prompt on evap
19:40 < TGW> at all, ever
19:40 < TGW> you can evap poison directly on yourself and it won't care
19:42 < AceTetra> all explosions and gas clouds should produce a prompt
19:46 < AceTetra> "Really blow stuff up? [y/n]"
19:47 < TGW> really kill yourself? [y/n]
19:47 < AceTetra> TGW: "Really die? [yn]" is a stock joke in any roguelike context
19:48 < AceTetra> in fact, it's cheesy and cliche and i'm ashamed i did it just now
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19:56 <+Zaba_> "Do you want your possessions to be identified?" would be a good speech line for Terence, if it wasn't such an awfully direct reference.
19:58 < AceTetra> "Do you want your possessions identified?"
19:58 < AceTetra> no "to be" there
20:01 <+haranp> has anyone done any work on Crawl for Android?
20:02 < AceTetra> haranp: i tried crawl at 64x24 terminal size, if that counts
20:02 < AceTetra> everything worked but the level map
20:03 < TGW> acetetra: apparently nethack uses the vandal dialect
20:03 <+Keskitalo> Hi Haran!
20:05 < cbus> haranp, do you know wizmode kung fu?
20:05 < cbus> haranp, I have a possible bug that needs trying :)
20:06 < cbus> haranp, mr slime creature (shape shifter) meets mr slime creature (normal one) might possibly crash the game (if they join in marriage)
20:06 <+haranp> stack trace, stack trace :)
20:07 < cbus> I've never seen it but it might crash the game :D
20:07 <+haranp> how?
20:08 < TGW> cbus: I tested it
20:08 < TGW> they don't mix
20:08 < cbus> ahh nice
20:08 < cbus> :D
20:10 <+haranp> I've got a shiny new N1 device and would love to have Crawl on it
20:11 < AceTetra> haranp: what screen size?
20:11 <+haranp> no idea
20:12 <+haranp> http://www.google.com/phone/static/en_US-nexusone_tech_specs.html
20:12 < AceTetra> as the screen size gets smaller, rendering crawl gets more difficult
20:12 <+haranp> 800x480
20:12 < AceTetra> oh that's more than enough
20:13 <+haranp> no keyboard though
20:13 <+greensnark> Writing a new interface will be the biggest pain
20:13 < AceTetra> how were you intending to do directional controls then?
20:14 <+Keskitalo> Touch screen? <3
20:14 <+haranp> can't tiles be played almost keyboardless now?
20:14 <+greensnark> Yes, but you still need an alt interface for a phone :)
20:14 < AceTetra> my mind is untainted by tile-related foulness, so i don't know
20:14 <+greensnark> Is there a NH port for Android?
20:14 <+greensnark> I've seen the iPhone NH port
20:14 <+haranp> nethack-android
20:15 <+greensnark> iPhone NH port was a brave effort, but I wouldn't want to play it :P
20:15 <+haranp> don't know how well it works
20:15 <+greensnark> It involved a lot of fiddly tapping and cursing
20:15 < AceTetra> crawl doesn't need nearly as many key commands as it uses, so this should at least be possible
20:15 <+Keskitalo> haranp: The console version was compiled fairly painlessly on an openmoko touch screen phone which ran debian; it could be played with the virtual keyboard. This might be not useful information though. :)
20:16 <+Keskitalo> But what was interesting was that autoexplore made it quite nice to play.
20:16 <+haranp> and there's angband for android too
20:16 -!- Kyrris [n=1@c-67-186-34-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:16 <+haranp> nowadays there's so much logic in autoexplore that you can probably play crawl with one key :)
20:17 <+Keskitalo> I believe automeleeing nearest opponent was recentlyishly implemented..
20:17 <+greensnark> Crawl is a much bigger resource hog than Angband/NH
20:18 <+greensnark> Don't know about openmoko, but on an iPhone it'll start scraping the bottom of the memory barrel before it's done loading maps :P
20:18 <+haranp> there's 4GB disk, 512MB RAM, and a 1GHz processor on the N1
20:18 <+greensnark> Nexus One has much better specs than my iPhone :/
20:18 < Kyrris> Droid can take it.
20:18 < Kyrris> :D
20:18 <+haranp> that should be enough for crawl, right greensnark?
20:19 <+greensnark> haranp: Should be plenty, yes
20:19 < AceTetra> crawl does seem to use a lot more logic than it needs, in general
20:19 <+greensnark> But we'd still need a brand new touch interface :)
20:19 < doy> AceTetra: what
20:19 < doy> what does that even mean
20:19 < AceTetra> i dived the semi-controlled blink code, and i was like, "what? 300 die rolls for this?!"
20:19 < doy> dude
20:19 < doy> you are obsessed
20:20 < doy> that's not even true anyway
20:20 <+haranp> AceTetra: that takes up 0.01% of the memory/disk
20:20 < AceTetra> yes, i know die rolls cost nothing
20:20 < doy> in almost all cases it only does one or two
20:20 < TGW> I don't understand how you'd play crawl on a touch screen with a touch phone
20:20 < AceTetra> also, yes, it is different since i last looked
20:20 < TGW> unless you reduce LOS to 3
20:20 <+haranp> TGW: 800x480 display, don't forget
20:20 < AceTetra> TGW: crawl only needs a 17x17 viewport anyway
20:21 < TGW> haranp: yeah but you have to touch it with some degree of accuracy
20:21 < AceTetra> you can do 17x17 characters on nearly anything
20:21 < TGW> ASCII is the way to go
20:21 <+greensnark> TGW: Things that require you to tap a specific square like taregeting would obviously have a zoom/scroll thing
20:21 < Kyrris> greensnark: Magnifying caret.
20:21 < TGW> 17x32 is 544
20:22 < Kyrris> Touch and drag, release to tap.
20:22 < TGW> so you'd have to make new tiles and everything
20:23 < AceTetra> "<TGW> 17x32 is 544" <-- huh? what's that number for?
20:23 <+haranp> 32x32 tiles won't fit on the screen, is TGW's point
20:23 < TGW> right
20:23 < AceTetra> oh, but ascii characters can be something like 6x10
20:24 < TGW> yep
20:24 <+Keskitalo> Argh, why am I sitting on the silverzinchaos commits.
20:24 < TGW> but then you have to include controls, 'cause 6x10 is untouchable
20:25 < AceTetra> on a keyboard, i usually target either with the - key, or with the directional controls
20:25 <+haranp> greensnark's right of course, you have to have a custom interface
20:25 <+haranp> would be one hell of an app if it worked though
20:26 < Kyrris> They connect to wifi, right?
20:26 <+haranp> yes
20:26 <+haranp> could run through cao
20:27 <+greensnark> Separating the UI layer for this could also help the legendary tiles-on-cao work
20:27 <+haranp> and that will happen round about the time crawl moves to TDD
20:27 <+greensnark> Lot of work, though :P
20:27 <+haranp> :)
20:27 < doy> hey, at least we *have* tests now
20:27 < doy> (:
20:28 < AceTetra> i get why the stylus idea would be nice, but crawl's rules inherently depend on a 17x17 minimum viewport size
20:28 < AceTetra> so if the stylus input can't work with 17x17, use buttons
20:29 <+haranp> it's not such a big deal if the viewport is 7 wide instead of 8; that just fits
20:29 <+haranp> cut max view range to 7, and so on
20:30 <+haranp> and you'd have 320x480 below the map for status info
20:30 <+greensnark> You'd need a palette of common action buttons
20:30 < AceTetra> except that 7 LOS isn't the same rules as traditional crawl
20:30 < AceTetra> it's either 8 or 6 if you have a bone lantern
20:31 <+Keskitalo> One thing would be to generate a smaller tileset from a nice font.
20:31 <+haranp> autoexplore, inventory, stash, levelmap, fire, zap, any other commonly used keys?
20:32 <+Keskitalo> 'a'bility
20:32 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * ra26e1f348a18 /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Silver doesn't double-damage demons. (Unless they're chaotic, of course).
20:32 <+Keskitalo> resting
20:32 < Kyrris> cast, invoke, chop
20:32 < AceTetra> haranp: put on and take off
20:32 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r853fa8d888e2 /crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Add monster that are actual spellcasters and know chaotic spells to Zin's DID_KILL_CHAOTIC check.
20:32 < Kyrris> eat
20:32 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r64245c974113 /crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Move Crazy Yiuf from is_chaotic to is_unclean, plus add Psyche and Gastronok. Zin doesn't like crazy people, or slugs in wizard hats.
20:32 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * reb1973f2c5de /crawl-ref/source/spl-data.h: Mark Cigotuvi's Degeneration, Summon Horrible Things, Twisted Resurrection and Banishment as chaotic spells.
20:32 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r94f8c5521bb9 /crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Make abominations chaotic.
20:32 < AceTetra> you can combine ALL the equipment keys. in fact, please do so.
20:32 <+greensnark> Keskitalo commit avalanche
20:32 <+haranp> eat can be done from inv menu
20:33 <+greensnark> Pickup/drop
20:33 < Kyrris> So demons don't take damage from silver, but player DS do?
20:33 < AceTetra> eat, wear, take off, use item, all can be the same key
20:33 < doy> Kyrris: yes
20:33 < doy> because player ds are mutated
20:34 < Kyrris> Right.
20:34 <+greensnark> Player DS have long received loving attention from things like holy wrath, despite not being immune to the torment that everything else that is susceptible to holy wrath is :)
20:34 < Kyrris> So it's the hybridization that gives them trouble.
20:34 < doy> yes
20:34 <+haranp> it might be interesting to log keystrokes on cao to see what the commonly used commands are
20:34 <+greensnark> haranp: 'o' :)
20:34 < Kyrris> Zin's okay with horsepeople.  And snakepeople.  And fishpeople.  But not demonpeople, because that's just gross.  :D
20:35 < AceTetra> i don't hammer 'o' anymore
20:35 <+greensnark> Neither do I
20:35  * greensnark macros Tab to 'o' and hits Tab instead
20:35 < AceTetra> once you set travel to not stop for finding items, everything is so much faster!
20:35 < AceTetra> my autoexplore only stops for stairs, fights, and full pack.
20:36 <+greensnark> So that you can cross the whole level and die without realising you autopicked up a wand that could have saved you? :P
20:36 < AceTetra> well, no, since i review my inventory if i'm in trouble
20:36 < Kyrris> He exercises perfect strategy, instead.  Of course.
20:36 < AceTetra> i also review it before going down
20:36 <+greensnark> So you can zap-test your new wand of hasting on the ogre in an emergency? :P
20:37 < AceTetra> zap-testing hasting is not much of a concern
20:37 < syllogism> no travel auto stop is worse than delay message clear :P
20:37 <+greensnark> I don't know :P
20:37 < AceTetra> i usually end up polymorphing Sigmund into a huge slug or something
20:37 <+greensnark> delay_message_clear is one of the great evils of all time :P
20:37 < syllogism> you play with delay message clear, you lost the right to complain :P
20:38 < AceTetra> syllogism: not none. i still stop for stairs and fights.
20:38 < doy> delay_message_clear is great
20:38 <+greensnark> It's getting to the point where delay_message_clear can go occupy a territory and name it Mordor or something :P
20:38 < AceTetra> is delay_message_clear on by default now?
20:38 < syllogism> AceTetra: it's still terrible
20:38 < syllogism> you've to identify some stuff immediately
20:39 < AceTetra> syllogism: the patience preserved is worth the items lost
20:39 < syllogism> plus I need to sacrfice everything to the one true god, Nemelex :P
20:39 < AceTetra> NO! TROG!
20:39  * greensnark shoots everyone with the this-is-crawl-dev gun
20:39  * greensnark also shoots himself.
20:40 <+Keskitalo> Kyrris: Player DS don't take silver damage just yet; need to check the degree of mutatedness of the pc first.
20:40 < AceTetra> the whole conversation seemed pretty on-topic for -dev to me
20:40 < syllogism> kind of weird you take the damage if you worship an evil god though
20:41 <+greensnark> Should do the runes-on-skin branding for the evil gods
20:41 < AceTetra> syllogism: yeah, damage should go with materials and your race, not your god or job
20:41 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Yes! <3
20:41 < syllogism> are those tattoo mutations still there
20:41 <+greensnark> So Makhleb tattoes you with his eeevil touch, which is why you're vulnerable to holy things
20:41 <+greensnark> Or was it silver things :P
20:42 <+greensnark> syllogism: No idea, but they'd be easy enough to bring back
20:42 < AceTetra> what about "cold iron"?
20:42 <+Keskitalo> syllogism: Yeah, that'll probably go. I'd love the mark of Evil though!
20:43 < syllogism> looks like they are gone :(
20:43 < Kyrris> Keskitalo: Eighteen levels of mutations is enough to do it, right?
20:43 < syllogism> "Your hands, arms and shoulders are covered in intricate, arcane blue writing."
20:43 <+greensnark> I'm glad it so carefully spells out the body parts involved
20:43 < syllogism> that's level 3 :P
20:44 < AceTetra> "All of your skin is covered in writhing orange runes."
20:44 < syllogism> apparently you start with some writing on the chest and then it disappears :P
20:44 < AceTetra> you can read yourself for destruction effects!
20:44 < syllogism> "There is a green sigil on your chest"
20:44 <+Keskitalo> Kyrris: Yeah, some sort of a number what to consider 100% silver damage is needed.
20:44 < syllogism> "There are several blue sigils on your hands and arms"
20:44 < syllogism> ignore the color difference, copied the wrong line :P
20:45 <+Keskitalo> I've got to go. Cheers!
20:45 <+haranp> ditto
20:45 -!- haranp [n=haranp@math1.math.huji.ac.il] has quit ["leaving"]
20:46 < AceTetra> Even after bathing in the fountain, your entire body is still covered with purplish-black bleeding symbols.
20:47 < AceTetra> If only you could understand the mysterious writing on your own skin.
20:51 < TGW> acetetra: nonono
20:52 < TGW> intelligent monsters blow up when they get close enough
20:52 < AceTetra> like with explosive runes?
20:52 < TGW> sure whatever
20:53 < AceTetra> TGW: you don't know about explosive runes? you read the runes, then the item blows up in your face
20:53 < AceTetra> it's hilarious
20:54 < Ashenzari> Equipment corrosion from acid damage on monsters (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=473) by 78291
20:54 < Kyrris> Who did the new octopus-shaped Hive?
21:02 < Mu_> i think st did
21:03 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@189.27.196.83.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:14 < AceTetra> "<doy> you are obsessed" <- no, probably just short memory
21:18 < cbus> acetetra, you are possessed
21:18 < cbus> (speling)!
21:18 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."]
21:21 -!- SIberAsleep [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:21 -!- Ero_ [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:26 < Twinge> !tell Cryp71c  my ISP is fubar.  I'll be stable in maybe a month or two.
21:26 < Henzell> Twinge: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know.
21:50 -!- by [n=rob@g225109228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:50 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ
22:00 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rb08279a5edac /crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: Add health/magic bar to player tile. (Patch by felirx and Eino, thanks!)
22:01 < Napkin> the spell "haste" has a range?
22:01 <@dpeg> back
22:01 <@dpeg> need kicks?
22:01 < Napkin> hi david
22:01 <@dpeg> damn, I missed Haran :(
22:01 <@dpeg> Hi everyone!
22:02 < Napkin> don't worry - i bet you kicked someone else ;)
22:02 < doy> dpeg is just really itching to kick people
22:02 < doy> (:
22:02 <@dpeg> doy: the anaconda message is noted from afar :/
22:02 < Napkin> he's on adrenaline - watch out!
22:03 < TGW> dpeg: should I say something provocative for you?
22:07 -!- AceTetra was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [For proposing to combine equipment keys. In ##crawl-dev!!!]
22:07 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:08 < Napkin> \o/
22:08 -!- AceTetra [n=AceTetra@97-126-73-66.tukw.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:08 < doy> he found someone!
22:08 < doy> (:
22:08 < AceTetra> that was hilarious
22:09 < syllogism> these random kicks are a bit silly
22:09 < AceTetra> ##crawl-kicking
22:09 <@dpeg> syllogism: wasn't random
22:10 < AceTetra> syllogism: no, they're funny. it's not proper irc without kicking!
22:10 < syllogism> wasn't the comment in context of palmpc/phone crawl anyway
22:10 <@dpeg> AceTetra: this topic has been done to death. NOT IN ##crawl-dev PLEASE.
22:10 < AceTetra> syllogism: yes
22:10 < Eronarn> Napkin: you can cast haste on other things, not just yourself
22:10 < AceTetra> dpeg: oh, sorry, which topic? combining keys or phones?
22:11 < Napkin> yeah, came to my mind the second I asked, Eronarn :D thanks :)
22:11 <@dpeg> AceTetra: combining equipment keys. There are looooooong threads about it, on the mailing list, Usenet and wherever.
22:11 < syllogism> dpeg: haranp was fantasizing about playing crawl on his new phone
22:12 < Napkin> good!
22:12 < syllogism> that's the context
22:13 <@dpeg> syllogism: I know. But I felt that AceTetra meant more than just the phones...
22:13 < syllogism> possibly
22:13 < AceTetra> syllogism: i was humorously referring to the endless key-combining threads though, so i may have deserved that kick
22:13 <@dpeg> The phones today, my console crawl tomorrow.
22:13 < AceTetra> also, kicks are funny
22:13 <@dpeg> And I even say why. Now.
22:14 < AceTetra> * AceTetra: you need to be a channel operator to do that
22:14 <@dpeg> syllogism: I only kick when I feel stuff said is not good for ##crawl-dev.
22:15 < syllogism> dpeg: it seems to me the new ev formula, and to a lesser extent the aevp formula, will considerably boost races with a high attribute total. It's generally a good thing but may require some tweaking
22:15 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rc59fafcf051b /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/unique/frances.png: Feminize Frances' tile, building on Porkchop's tile submissions.
22:15 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rd0a5dfbfd4a2 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/frances_male.png: Add old (male) Frances tile into the UNUSED folder.
22:15 < syllogism> seems a bit silly high elves will be better dodgers than halflings
22:16 <@dpeg> syllogism: attribute = Dex?
22:16 <@dpeg> or Str+Dex+Int ?
22:16 < syllogism> well not just dex since you've to invest points into int and possibly str too
22:17 < syllogism> then again the stat diffierences are generally minute
22:17 < AceTetra> dpeg: it was a bad joke, but there's still the serious part. i don't think there's much of a threat from phone crawl's keystrokes invading console crawl
22:18 <@dpeg> AceTetra: I see. Didn't recognise the joke, sorry.
22:18 < AceTetra> i mean, there's about 20 buttons on most phones. you have to combine commands somehow
22:18 < Napkin> gestures!
22:18 < AceTetra> dpeg: oh, i thought you were kicking me for the bad joke
22:18 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:19 <@dpeg> AceTetra: on the phone, sure
22:19 < Ashenzari> OCS of WucadMu tile for  wizlab WucadMu's Monestary (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=475) by Porkchop
22:19 < Ashenzari> strangeness viewing monsters in full_describe_view() (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=474) by rob
22:20 <@dpeg> should be nice to be an XL 15 Ke in Shoals
22:20 < syllogism> probably a bit too splatty even with flight
22:21 < doy> 15:16 < bhaak> NUDE has an extended command #shout which delivers a message into #nethack.de
22:21 < doy> great idea, or greatest idea?
22:22 < doy> (nude being a nethack server)
22:22 < syllogism> I take back what I said about halflings
22:22 < AceTetra> i don't even understand, but shouting is cool
22:23 < TGW> can we make a command which delivers a message into #nethack.de?
22:23 < Napkin> one way shouting? hmm.. 2 way? annoying! :>
22:23 < AceTetra> "A few of our players are trying to beat the game unspoiled and thus we kindly ask you to 'encrypt' major spoilers with ROT13" <-- that whole idea is silly
22:23 < bhaak> doy: there's also the corresponing .mail command that delivers an in-game mail message
22:23 < doy> bhaak: nice
22:23 < Zannick> what about !send?
22:23 < TGW> acetetra: ROT13 it twice
22:24 < AceTetra> TGW: this message is doubly encrypted
22:24 < TGW> acetetra: this message is encrypted ten times as much
22:25 < AceTetra> ok, let's stop circlejerking in the dev channel
22:27 <@dpeg> syllogism: yes, I agree
22:27 <@dpeg> syllogism: (agreed on my KeFE being splatty) -- what do you take back? Future Halflings will be okay EV-wise?
22:28 <@dpeg> bhaak: Guten Abend!
22:28 < syllogism> well they'll be okay if they don't also want to cast spells
22:28 <@dpeg> syllogism: but that's exactly the choice we want?
22:28 < syllogism> yes, and they do get a respectable ev even if they invest some points in int
22:28 < syllogism> stuff like +6 rings of dex may require some thought though
22:29 < syllogism> at high dodging they'll be better than the ring of shaolin
22:29 < bhaak> dpeg: N'Abend!
22:29 <@dpeg> syllogism: yes, that's because the proposed EV formula is cap-free
22:29 <@dpeg> syllogism: otoh, it would simply mean that Dex+6 and EV+8 now have different target audiences
22:30 < syllogism> at high dodging +6 dex gives ~8ev so about the same I guess
22:30 < syllogism> ~9 for spriggan
22:30 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-159-3.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:30 <@dpeg> syllogism: that is probably okay... Dex also gives other boni
22:31 < syllogism> dpeg: well we are talking about a ring here
22:31 < syllogism> but then again most players won't have that high dodging
22:31 < syllogism> it's only +3ev at dodging 10
22:31 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Connection timed out]
22:32 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA
22:37 <@dpeg> syllogism: yes, which is why I think it is okay to have both types of ringsd
22:37 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * rcedac7ec14eb /crawl-ref/source/state.cc: Fix inverted initialization of crawl_state.show_more_prompt.
22:37 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * re05abe36a7bb /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: User-forced --more-- prompts.
22:37 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-173-237.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:37 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r1f0627bf872b /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Update messagewindow todo list.
22:38 <@dpeg> greensnark: KeFE vs Polyphemus -- the guy still doesn't throw sheep. Bug!
22:38 <@dpeg> Polyphemus resided on a 1x1 islet, how pitiful
22:40 < AceTetra> is hellion island still around?
22:40 < AceTetra> yak island was pretty funny
22:40 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rf510601b8263 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/unique/polyphemus.png: Replace Polyphemus' tile with Porkchop's version, slightly edited by me.
22:40 <@dpeg> AceTetra: yes
22:40 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@88-148-219-170.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
22:41 < AceTetra> ok, but you can't land on it anymore, right?
22:41 <@dpeg> hm, no idea
22:41 < AceTetra> landing on hellion island was the best way to interact with it
22:41 < doy> i think you can, but that really should be fixed
22:41 < doy> pan portals shouldn't be able to land you inside pan vaults
22:42 < doy> hellion island was really only acceptable because you can't end up on it accidentally
22:42 < AceTetra> doy: i was just reading chat from someone who landed on it and died
22:42 < doy> (there's no space for a normal teleport to land you on it, for instance)
22:42 < AceTetra> i don't know how it happened
22:42 -!- Twinge-- [n=user@97-124-153-148.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:43 < doy> it's possible to land on it when first entering the level, because monsters on the place you enter the level at are teleported away
22:43 < doy> to avoid placement issues
22:43 < AceTetra> yeah, so why can you land in a vault in the first place?
22:44 < AceTetra> i thought crawl would have anti-vault-landing logic
22:44 < doy> probably because there's no code in place to prevent it
22:44 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:44 < doy> it normally isn't an issue, since stairs can't be generated in a vault, unless they're placed there explicitly
22:44 < doy> but pan doesn't have stairs in the other direction
22:44 < AceTetra> doy: ok, but lots of vaults have all three < included in the map
22:45 <+by> pan could get dummy upstairs that appear as floor
22:45 < doy> AceTetra: and?
22:45 < doy> by: yeah, that could work
22:45 < AceTetra> by: i would redefine those as < anyway
22:45 -!- blabber [n=tobi@95-88-224-31-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:46 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-172-52.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Connection timed out]
22:46 < AceTetra> doy: you were talking about how < can't be randomly generated in vaults, so i pointed out how they don't even need to be generated, since a lot of vaults have <<< in them to begin with
22:46 -!- Spads [n=spacehob@unaffiliated/spads] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:47 < doy> "unless they're placed there explicitly"
22:47 < AceTetra> yeah
22:47 < AceTetra> and my point is that they're explicitly placed a LOT.
22:47 < doy> not really
22:47 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * rdd96410fc73d /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Filter message history according to channel_message_history.
22:47 < doy> mostly just on full-map vaults
22:48 < doy> since that's necessary
22:48 < doy> there's only two others that i can think of off the top of my head
22:48 < doy> although i'm probably forgetting some
22:48 < AceTetra> even mon raqndom maps, i still run into tons of <<< vaults. it feels like the whole game is made of octagon levels.
22:48 -!- blabber [n=tobi@95-88-224-31-dynip.superkabel.de] has left ##crawl-dev []
22:48 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * rfb16e12e7d9e /crawl-ref/source/ (30 files in 3 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into messagewindow
22:48 < AceTetra> er "on random"
22:49 <+by> why is there another class/job discussion?
22:49 < doy> shrug, i don't
22:49 < AceTetra> it seems like whenever i complain and someone else says they don't really run into it much, it's because someone else plays less
22:49 < doy> by: no idea, i thought it was decided a while ago
22:50 < AceTetra> i wish i couuld quantify
22:50 < Napkin> david didn't know, he asked
22:50 <+by> I thought the last time people agreed that "role" was probably good, which hasn't even appeared in the current discussion
22:50 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-159-3.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [No route to host]
22:51 < AceTetra> there's an issue about role vs job? i just write whichever
22:51 <@dpeg> by: because Johanna fixed some s/class/job bugs and in her commit message asked "we should settle that?" and I mistakingly said yes.
22:51 < doy> AceTetra: it's true that i haven't played much in the past month or two
22:51 < doy> but pretty sure vault weights haven't changed that much since then
22:52 <+by> messagewindow isn't much worse than master anymore; I should probably threaten to merge so someone gives it a try
22:52 <+by> (or ask nicely for feedback)
22:52 <@dpeg> by: yes, I agree
22:52 <+greensnark> by: Doooo it
22:53 <@dpeg> by: that's imperial order, now you have to do it
22:53 < doy> by: how is it better than master so far?
22:53 <+greensnark> Unless you merge into master you'll have 1e-10 % of the playerbase using it
22:53 <@dpeg> greensnark: you sneaked on my Polyphemus comment, I noted :)
22:53 <+by> what, threaten to merge, or merge?
22:53 <+greensnark> by: Merge
22:53 <+greensnark> dpeg: Oh, the sheep :)
22:53 < AceTetra> DO it, not threaten it!
22:54 <@dpeg> on the verge to merge
22:54 < Napkin> merge \o/
22:54 < Kyrris> What's messagewindow?
22:55 < Napkin> I wanna try, rob! your changes sounded delicious :D
22:55 <+greensnark> Napkin's HEFE is still alive, must be some Crawl bug :)
22:55 < Napkin> ha! :D
22:55 < AceTetra> Kyrris: the part of crawl's screen that has all the spam
22:55 < Napkin> Good... morning (?), greensnarking!
22:55 < Napkin> <3 OOD!
22:55 < Kyrris> Then what by said doesn't make sense.  That makes me suspect you're wrong.  :P
22:56 < doy> Kyrris: no, he's right
22:56 <+greensnark> Actually I'm just off to sleep :)
22:56 < Napkin> :)
22:56 < doy> by's branch is rewriting the code for that
22:56 < AceTetra> Kyrris: messagewindow is the part of crawl's screen with the messages. better?
22:56 < Napkin> g'night! :)
22:56 < Kyrris> Oh, see, he made me think "messagewindow" was the name of his branch, or something.
22:57 < Kyrris> Ace's good name is cleared.
22:57 < doy> Kyrris: it is
22:57 < Napkin> Vault8 got new "boxes"? :D
22:57 < AceTetra> ah, no, it's like 'viewport' or 'hud'
22:57 < doy> the branch is named messagewindow, and it's for rewriting the message window
22:57 < AceTetra> hahaha, my good name
22:57 < Kyrris> Then that's what I wanted to know.
22:57 < Kyrris> GOOD NAME GONE.
22:58 < AceTetra> crawl has messagewindow, hud, the viewport, the monsters list, and whatever fullscreen lists there are
23:03 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-173-237.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Connection timed out]
23:04 -!- bhaak [n=bhaak@84-74-155-65.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
23:04 <@dpeg> !tell due My Snake:1 has: Aizul, Kirke, Erica, Sonja, Eustachio, Azrael, Nergalle, Harold. Bug?
23:04 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let due know.
23:05 < TGW> dpeg: if it's a bug you should never fix it <3
23:05 <@dpeg> only half of them dead
23:05 -!- bhaak [n=bhaak@84-74-155-65.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined ##crawl-dev
23:05 <+by> dpeg: what's your opinion on renaming Nikola to Niko?
23:07 <@dpeg> by: too anachronistic?
23:07 <@dpeg> (ie Nikola is?)
23:07 <+by> not sure, I guess it's not any more explicit than all the ancient names
23:08 <+by> there's just something a little wrong with it
23:08 <@dpeg> I don't mind Nikola, personally.
23:09 <+by> at some point, I had the impression that quite a few people were uncomfortable with it
23:09 <+by> may have gotten used to it, however
23:09 < AceTetra> i was just saying Nikola doesn't fit with the rest of Crawl's uniques
23:09 < Kyrris> I love Nikola.
23:09 < Ashenzari> Snake:5 is generated without vault and rune (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=476) by hayenne
23:09 < Kyrris> The name tells me more about what to expect from him than anything else could.
23:10 < Kyrris> Dangerous with uncontrolled lightning.  Done.
23:10 < AceTetra> Crawl uniques have names that are either generic English first names, or strings of nonsense. Nikola isn't either.
23:11 <+by> not the pan/hell lords, though
23:11 < AceTetra> i mean, i love fighting Nikola Tesla, but it just doesn't fit very well
23:11 <+by> also, not a few recent uniques: Azrael, Tiamat, Polyphemuus
23:12 < TGW> acetetra: nessos
23:12 < TGW> polyphemus
23:12 < AceTetra> oh, ok. my point was total crap. :/
23:13 < AceTetra> although... i never said i didn't like Tesla :P
23:15 < AceTetra> Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs.
23:15 < AceTetra> Tesla lyrics are in Nikola's verbiage, right?
23:16 < CIA-81> by * r37bf5d32477f /crawl-ref/source/ (message.cc tags.h): Bump minor version.
23:17 < Kyrris> Tesla is a band?
23:17 < AceTetra> yes
23:18 < AceTetra> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_(band)
23:19 <+by> for some reason I got git to merge the merge commit and the minor version bump...
23:21 < kilobyte> Crawl uniques which _are_ generic English first names are in dire need to be axed anyway.  Almost all of the rest are references, usually to mythology.
23:22 < TGW> you're right let's axe sigmund
23:22 < kilobyte> Sigmund is in the second group.
23:22 < AceTetra> kilobyte: on the other hand, they have hit points and they give exp when they die, so who cares what they're called?
23:22 < TGW> and jessica
23:22 < TGW> how about jessica?
23:22 < AceTetra> TGW: jessica is a consistent border case
23:23 < TGW> ?
23:23 < AceTetra> i think jessica is supposed to be wussy
23:23 < TGW> she's pretty bad at it
23:23 < AceTetra> ?? wussy uniques
23:23 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled wussy_uniques in my learndb.
23:23 < AceTetra> oh, what's that called now?
23:24 < kilobyte> Ones which lack even their own speech: Duane Edmund Frances Frederick Louise Wayne.  Other bad ones: Harold Joseph Josephine Jozef Norbert Terence Rupert.
23:24 < AceTetra> there are a lot of enemies that share speech and spellbooks though
23:24 < AceTetra> @? deep elf high priest
23:24 < Gretell> deep elf high priest (e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-66 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Damage: 14 | Flags: evil, see invisible | Res: magic(88) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1045 | Sp: demon, hellfire burst, minor healing, smiting, animate dead.
23:24 < AceTetra> @? draconian zealot
23:24 < Gretell> red draconian zealot (d) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 64-96 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 15 | Flags: evil, cold-blooded | Res: magic(64), fire | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2172 | Sp: demon, hellfire burst, minor healing, smiting, animate dead.
23:25 < TGW> joseph jozef josephine should just get axed
23:25 < TGW> it's ridiculous
23:25 < TGW> or, like, renamed
23:25 < AceTetra> i don't see why crawl needs unique personalities for each unique
23:25 < AceTetra> they're just there for you to kill them
23:25 < kilobyte> Axed, then renamed.  In that order.
23:26 < AceTetra> kilobyte: what, you gonna name the blood stain?
23:26 < kilobyte> AceTetra: yes.  Then sweep it away.
23:26 < Zannick> Blaine the bloodstain
23:27 < kilobyte> AceTetra: and then, since git's history is immutable, hack into SF and the machines of everyone around and remove the traces they ever existed.
23:27 < TGW> acetetra: because it leads to stuff like donald
23:27 < kilobyte> AceTetra: and then salt the ground where the blood stains were
23:27 <+by> hmm, I forgot to test with tiles before pushing
23:27 < AceTetra> TGW: i don't see the harm with one character who makes meta comments
23:28 < TGW> acetetra: it will ruin the game
23:28 < TGW> finding donald funny is a no-brainer
23:28 < AceTetra> crawl is so tied to irc, it might as well have a unique named after each of us
23:28 < Zannick> dpeg hits! You die...
23:29  * AceTetra suddenly realizes that this is an unpopular and very repugnant viewpoint
23:29 < TGW> eronarn's unique randomly mutates the dungeon and enemies
23:29 < TGW> and mostly your spells
23:31 < TGW> (dpeg just nerfs them)
23:31 < kilobyte> the dpeg unique could wield a fixedart "Nerf Bat"
23:32 < AceTetra> heh, that reminds me of the "IT Crowd" intro
23:33 < TGW> kilobyte: an acid attack
23:33 < TGW> but it nerfs instead of corrodes
23:34 < Zannick> an uncursed nerfed blowgun
23:34 < Zannick> "nerfgun" for short?
23:34 < AceTetra> huh, i used to think "team nerf" was funny, but now the whole joke is worn out
23:37 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
23:37 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v pointless_] by ChanServ
23:39 < Napkin> hey by?
23:40 < Napkin> Remember that you fixed the bug where a too long weapon name and/or description would cause the next line in map-view to disappear?
23:40 < Napkin> rob?
23:40 <+by> dimly
23:40 < Napkin> same happens for the Qv slot
23:40 < AceTetra> Donald says, "Greet me or stab me or SOMETHING! Just get on with it, whatever it is."
23:42 < AceTetra> Donald says, "You know what's funny? You haven't got a turn since seeing me, and I can predict that you're as boring as every other player. How does that feel?"
23:43 < AceTetra> should donald say "player" ever?
23:44 < Napkin> good catch, AceTetra 
23:44 < Napkin> could you file it, please?
23:44 < AceTetra> wait, file what?
23:44 < AceTetra> i made all of that up just now :/
23:44 < Napkin> that's a bug
23:44 < Napkin> lol, funny guy..
23:45 < AceTetra> donald didn't ever mention the player in crawl, i was just wondering if he should
23:45 < AceTetra> so, i'm glad to know that he definitely shouldn't
23:46 < Napkin> at least my opinion ;)
23:46 < CIA-81> kilobyte * ra43b069c4b81 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Fix compilation.
23:46 < AceTetra> mine too, i agree. i was just running some very cynical donald lines by everyone, sorry to be confusing
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23:47 -!- Spads [n=spacehob@unaffiliated/spads] has joined ##crawl-dev
23:47 < Napkin> no harm done ;)
23:48 < AceTetra> the whole meta-Donald issue is interesting though.
23:49 < Zannick> why not have an even more meta character named Kurt? ;)
23:49 < AceTetra> why Kurt
23:49 < Zannick> after Gödel
23:50 < AceTetra> that is so meta-meta, my brain exploded just now
23:50 < kilobyte> Donald says, "They hate when I make meta references.¨
23:50 < AceTetra> i'll never get all this brain out of my carpet :(
23:51 < Zannick> Kurt says, "But if you are consistent in your search for the Orb, it can never be complete!"
23:59 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r6cf9350cf9c1 /crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Purge Purgy's entry of misspellings.