00:00 < Kyrris> Right.
00:00 < Kyrris> But I'm not looking at the source, and it's your baby.  :P
00:00 < Eronarn> one particularly nice thing about that tileset - it is a square one
00:00 < Eronarn> would be very, very pretty in console, compared to currently
00:01 <@dpeg> syllogism: don't know yet, will look at the numbers right now
00:02 < Kyrris> Eronarn: In that png you sent, are the corners of the drawn walls at the edges or centers of wall tiles?
00:06 < Kyrris> Err,  corners or centers?
00:06 < Kyrris> Better put: Are the only floor tiles the + marks?
00:06 < syllogism> is the intention to make spellcasting harder or easier in heavy armour? I could do the math but someone surely knows :P
00:06 < Ashenzari> IOOD orb + cloud animated tile submission (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=449) by purge
00:08 < Eronarn> Kyrris: yes, the only floor tiles are the + marks
00:08 < Eronarn> http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/File:Markvii.png is the actual tileset/font
00:09 < syllogism> seems to be about the same
00:10 < Kyrris> I'm seeing randomization.
00:10 < Kyrris> Or a bad O().
00:10 < Ashenzari> Loot unaccessible in bailey (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=450) by Eifeltrampel
00:10 < Kyrris> Unless the data structure allows considering more than one tile as a group.
00:11 < Kyrris> Which would make a big switch probably the easiest solution.
00:11 < Eronarn> Kyrris: there is no reason it has to be exactly that tileset, of course
00:11 < Kyrris> Right.
00:11 < Kyrris> Pillars and angled walls would be enough.
00:12 < Eronarn> yeah, that alone would make the game much prettier
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00:15 < Kyrris> Wall tiles adjacent to # floor tiles.  1 is simple.  2 depends on whether they're adjacent to each other or not.  3 is starting to become a querying nightmare.
00:15 < Kyrris> Like, O(n^n) bad.
00:15 < Kyrris> Especially with the variety of layouts crawl can generate with.
00:16 < Kyrris> In DF, you can use previous state as a guide, because everything has to be dug out.
00:18 < Kyrris> If there's another way to approach this problem, it depends on the map storage.
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00:22 <@dpeg> syllogism: neither really (on casting in armour)
00:22 <@dpeg> one goal was to make Str matter more for heavy armours
00:22 <@dpeg> another to remove the distinction between light and heavy
00:23 < syllogism> is that old AEVP formula right, it looks wrong
00:23 <@dpeg> syllogism: hm, how do I check?
00:24 < syllogism> I don't recall where it is, I try not to look at them when possible
00:25 < syllogism> but that formula doesn't look sane unless I'm missing something which is quite possible
00:25 <@dpeg> there are various caps, I thikn
00:26 < syllogism> wouldn't it basically return the "30" with basically any armour skill value >3
00:26 < syllogism> regardless of str
00:26 < syllogism>  AEVP = EVP * MAX(30, 60-Armour * Str) / 60
00:26 <@dpeg> yes
00:26 <@dpeg> bug!
00:26 <@dpeg> let me look at my old mails, I saved them in some folder
00:29 <@dpeg> hm, not in there -- need to look into SF then
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00:31 < syllogism> the wiki has this: armour's EV penalty * 30 + 15 ) / Strength
00:31 < syllogism> which doesnt make sense either really, I guess there are other formulas applied
00:32 < Eronarn> is that the EV penalty that applies to spellcasting? as in, strength reduces effective armor EV for casting?
00:32 < syllogism> makes it rather difficult to grasp what's going on with the changes. Might be easier just to implement them and then test :P
00:32 <+doy> Eronarn: yes, the "figuring out what walls are supposed to be" part was the part i was talking about being non-trivial
00:33 < syllogism> Eronarn: according to that brainstorm page that was "-20 * EVP + 15 + **Armour * Str / 15** + Shield + Race Mod
00:36 < Napkin> something broken with "+" in the targetting mode?
00:36 < Napkin> first "+" seems to be always ignored
00:37 < Eronarn> god, those are ugly formulas :)
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00:50 < syllogism> dpeg: asking sorear might be easier
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01:05 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r06c542a2d183 /crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Add a tile for sixfirhy, drawn by Porkchop and slightly tweaked by me.
01:05 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r3f519b4a9a4c /crawl-ref/source/ (rltiles/dc-mon.txt tilepick.cc): Remove my debugging lines.
01:05 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r88ef25622619 /crawl-ref/source/ (rltiles/dc-mon/angel.png tilemcache.cc): Add Porkchop's improved angel tile, slightly tweaked.
01:05 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * ra6ac3f8273cf /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/angel.png: Add the old angel tile to UNUSED/monsters.
01:05 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r96ad883e7396 /crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Add purge's tiles for Dowan and Duvessa, yay! :D
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01:26 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rceb13c4aad14 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon.txt: Re-add accidentally removed outlines from a number of monster tiles.
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01:41 <@dpeg> sorear: here?
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01:48 <@dpeg> ??plate
01:48 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled plate in my learndb.
01:48 <@dpeg> ??plate mail
01:48 < Henzell> plate mail[1/1]: +10 ac -6 ev. Weighs 65.0 aum.
02:05 <@dpeg> someone got the time to look at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:ac ?
02:08 < Napkin> travelling to an item, which is below a plant, just does nothing - "can't reach" would be cool in that case
02:09 <@dpeg> agreed
02:10 <@dpeg> Napkin: I am pushing the AC nerf here. You can call me Sysiphos, although all the actual work has been done by Samuel.
02:11 < Napkin> :)
02:11 < Napkin> filing
02:13 <+sorear> dpeg: slightly
02:14 <@dpeg> sorear: you are one of the few persons who have some insight into how combat works. If you could look over the proposals on that AC wiki page (need not be now, of course) and comment, that would be extremely valuable. Again, no action right now is needed, and I will also send a mail to the list.
02:18 < syllogism> I'm finding the new formula confusing too, can AEVP be negative
02:19 <+sorear> the SH number displayed has never been random
02:20 <+sorear> also, currently 1.5-hand weapons are statted for the worst case and get variable bonuses
02:20 < Ashenzari> Traveling to item below a plant (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=451) by Napkin
02:20 <+sorear> if we switch to variable penalties, we need to restat the weapons for the best case
02:22 <@dpeg> sorear: would you comment in the wiki?
02:22 < AceTetra> yay someone thought to report the plant travel thing
02:22 <@dpeg> can be rough style, I can sort it out later
02:22 < syllogism> MIN(0, 3*EVP - Str)
02:25 < syllogism> i'll try to make sense of it later :P
02:25 < Napkin> why didn't you, AceTetra?
02:26 < AceTetra> because i didn't think of it
02:26 < Napkin> :)
02:26 < AceTetra> i was probably just like "oh, i bet that's fixed in trunk"
02:27 <@dpeg> syllogism: erm, should be a MAX, eh?
02:27 < syllogism> dpeg: at least I couldn't make it work with negative or positive EVP when I tried
02:28 <@dpeg> syllogism: that bit is by me. It should really be MAX.
02:28 <@dpeg> With plate mail (EVP 6), you need 18 Str to mitigate the bad effects.
02:29 < TGW> dowan is 46 exp and duvessa is 103
02:29 < TGW> can we make them both 74?
02:30 <@dpeg> ask Jude!
02:31 <@dpeg> syllogism: repaired
02:32 < Eronarn> dpeg: hey, I didn't have time recently to do all the DS stuff, but i at least proposed a scales system - it look ok to you?
02:32 < TGW> due: ask!
02:33 <@dpeg> TGW: due is not here right now
02:33 <@dpeg> Eronarn: in principle yes
02:33 <@dpeg> I need to put some more thought into it, perhaps I can simplify :)
02:33 < TGW> !tell due make dowan and duvessa worth 74 exp, rather than 46 and 103!
02:33 < Henzell> TGW: OK, I'll let due know.
02:33 <@dpeg> sorear: shall we postpone DS overhaul to 0.7?
02:33 < TGW> dpeg: this means going to the old system?
02:34 <@dpeg> not sure
02:34 < TGW> also
02:34 < TGW> bands don't generate through walls, do they?
02:34 < TGW> or they aren't supposed to?
02:34 <@dpeg> they do
02:34 < TGW> oh
02:34 < TGW> I thought I saw that resolved somewhere
02:34 < TGW> 'k
02:34 < AceTetra> you can even bring monsters up stairs and have them show up on the other side of a wall
02:35 < AceTetra> it's a great way to split up crowds
02:35 < AceTetra> on bubble levels it's even a cheap form of banishment
02:38 < Eronarn> dpeg: What do you think the timescale is, on amount of testing DS will require? It seems to me that delaying them is hasty... the system itself won't be the contentious part, it's too close to the current one
02:39 < Eronarn> The issue will be the mutations, and it seems likely it'll be a 95/5 situation there
02:39 <@dpeg> well, of all the new things, DS should require little testing
02:40 <@dpeg> it is a question of getting enough new, good mutations in to replace a bunch of old, bad ones
02:40 < TGW> is the status quo written somewhere?
02:40 < TGW> that's something I'm mildly interested
02:40 < TGW> in
02:40 <@dpeg> if sorear does not have time right now, that's completely okay -- I don't think we need to force new DS into 0.6
02:41 <@dpeg> 0.6 is big enough already, and we've got enough stuff to polish
02:41 <@dpeg> If sorear has the time, then all the better, of course.
02:41 <@dpeg> TGW: yes, you can find very explicit spoilers. Look at the akrasiac page for them.
02:42 < TGW> dpeg: I mean the stuff in 0.6
02:42 < TGW> the old new mutations
02:42 <+sorear> I will have much more time next week, I'd like to postpone my decision until then
02:42 <@dpeg> TGW: see the DS wiki on CDO
02:42 < CIA-81> dpeg * r1236bd241068 /crawl-ref/source/dat/bailey.des: Make loot always accessible in bailey_polearm_2.
02:43 <@dpeg> sorear: yes, no problem at all, as I said. Right now, your expertise on the AC stuff is appreciated. If you can reply on that in the next week, that'd be very helpful.
02:48 < TGW> is there a reason we need to keep the throw foo mutations?
02:48 <@dpeg> Napkin: sorry I have to ask, but when it's time to use Resolved and when to use Fixed?
02:49 < Napkin> nothing to be sorry about
02:49 <@dpeg> I like to close, but many others resolve.
02:50 < Napkin> generally, both mean the same. when you select resolved, it'll show up in the reporters "waiting for approval/acknowledgement"-box in my_view and he can close it, if he agrees
02:50 <@dpeg> ah, I see
02:50 < Napkin> closed means read-only for non-admins
02:50 <@dpeg> I guess that makes more sense for actual bugs, not the stuff that I do.
02:50 < Napkin> i do.. 50/50 - depends on the issue.
02:51 < Napkin> things like "are you ok with that solution" i do resolved - others closed where there is no additional feedback necessary
02:51 <@dpeg> Napkin: there was this idea for minor changes not showing up in the Recently Changed wiki pages list. Is that possible?
02:51 < Napkin> probably, yes
02:51 <@dpeg> cool
02:51 < Napkin> it's a flag - should be possible to filter them out
02:52 <@dpeg> !seen henryci
02:52 < Henzell> I last saw henryci at Sat Jan 16 09:43:53 2010 UTC (16h 8m 12s ago) quitting without a message.
02:52 <@dpeg> sniff
02:52 < Napkin> but maybe it just sorts by modification-date - which would make it more complicated
02:52 < Napkin> just haven't had motivation or time time to check
02:55 < Eronarn> TGW: we don't need to keep the throw foo mutations? i think they're not even in right now
02:55 < TGW> eronarn: well, "are" keeping
02:55 < TGW> they're in both fire facets, rank 1
02:58 < Eronarn> TGW: they could be replaced by something else if you have something more interesting
02:59 <@dpeg> what Ero said
03:01 <@dpeg> TGW: you can comment in the wiki
03:02 < TGW> I'm guessing they're intentionally asymmetrical?
03:02 < TGW> dpeg: will consider, thanks!
03:03 <@dpeg> TGW: yes, of course
03:03 <@dpeg> I keep asking this, but that may be because I don't get answers: are all Div spells removed apart from See Inv etc.?
03:03 < TGW> dpeg: forescry -> phase shift
03:04 < TGW> and sinv lost the div component
03:04 < TGW> the rest are removed but for rods
03:04 <@dpeg> thanks
03:05 <@dpeg> so we may want to add new items which give some Div functionality, but we don't have to
03:05 <@dpeg> I guess the Div god won't make it either...
03:06 <@dpeg> What is Matt's nick?
03:07 < TGW> ?map -> ?divination!
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03:07 <@dpeg> TGW: no, I don't mean that :)
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03:07 < TGW> so, like ball of seeing?
03:08 <@dpeg> there could be a scroll of Detect Items, or Detect Monsters, or a combined version: Detect Things etc.
03:08 < TGW> my way is just taking it a step further
03:08 < Twinge-> 'Scroll of Detection'
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03:08 < Eronarn> dpeg: actually, would rather see it as a potion
03:08 < Eronarn> for ID game reasons
03:08 < TGW> twinge: well, then people ask to combine it with ?dc
03:08 <@dpeg> yes
03:09 <@dpeg> Eronarn: well, I don't think it really fits on a potion
03:09 < TGW> if you call it scroll of divination and lump mapping in, I think it's more interesting
03:09 < Eronarn> dpeg: "potion of acuity" - see invis, detect items, detect traps
03:09 < TGW> and agreed with dpeg
03:09 < Twinge-> TGW: Right, wasn't thinking about that one.
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03:09 < Eronarn> i think that lasting effects which target only the user work better as potions than scrolls
03:09 <@dpeg> of course, you could ask if ?DC is needed after all
03:10 < Eronarn> - are there even any that are scrolls that aren't instant effects? aside from the permanent ones
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03:10 < ogaz> tele?
03:10 < TGW> vulnerability, silence
03:10 <@dpeg> teleport
03:10 < Eronarn> TGW: vuln/silence are both AOE and fit fine as scrolls
03:10 < Twinge-> Also true; remove curse does the job well enough and could spawn a little more often to compensate.  Though detect curse can do it en masse which can be nice.
03:11 < Eronarn> teleport isn't technically instant, but it's not a longer-duration effect like this presumably would be, either
03:11 < TGW> @scroll of divination: if you share your allowance for ?dm, ?dt, ?di etc, you have to budget them
03:11 < Eronarn> not to say a scroll can't have a longer-duration single-target effect, just i don't think any currently do
03:11 < TGW> you can't save traps for zot, use map for that lab, whatever
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03:11 <@dpeg> I believe that, as happens often, many solution would work.
03:12 <@dpeg> +s
03:12 < Twinge-> Indeed.
03:12 <@dpeg> but it's not really urgent
03:12 <@dpeg> the amulet of Perception would also help, now that Div is gone
03:13 < TGW> well
03:13 < TGW> if you're not really using a resource, you can scum it
03:13 < TGW> since it's entirely a noncombat effect
03:13 <@dpeg> scum what?
03:14 < TGW> if perception gives div
03:14 <@dpeg> no, it doesn't 
03:14 <@dpeg> it helps detecting traps
03:14 < TGW> well, even so
03:15 < Eronarn> do we really need something that helps detect traps...?
03:15 <@dpeg> well, maybe not
03:15 <@dpeg> but in 0.6, casters won't simply spam DT anymore
03:16 < TGW> dpeg: I think it's problematic trying to make them asymmetrical if you've symmetrical mutations
03:16 <@dpeg> TGW: sorry, Fire I vs II or Fire vs Ice?
03:16 < TGW> fire vs ice
03:16 <@dpeg> I don't understand -- you cannot get Fire and Ice
03:17 < TGW> the balancing act you're doing with the ranks, I mean
03:17 < TGW> ice gets rC, then cons, then whatever
03:17 < TGW> fire gets throw flame, then rF, then cons or whatever
03:18 <@dpeg> what's the problem?
03:18 < TGW> cons is in the same slot as passive freeze, hellfire and +10 AC
03:18 < TGW> cons scrolls*
03:18 <@dpeg> TGW: future DS will get all three levels
03:19 <@dpeg> as least with my simple system
03:19 < TGW> hrm?
03:19 < TGW> I mean
03:19 <@dpeg> TGW: I don't understand your issue.
03:19 < TGW> compare fire II to ice II
03:19 <@dpeg> ok
03:20 < TGW> aside from elemental differences, you're comparing +10 AC to throw flame
03:20 < TGW> if you can bear to make them a bit more symmetrical, you can put cons scrolls in the first level
03:20 < TGW> of both, and bump throw flame up and make it into something more impressive
03:20 <@dpeg> but: rF is generally better than rC, and *early* throw flame can be decisive
03:21 < TGW> well, I'm not saying it's a bad mutation
03:21 < TGW> but it's redundant with some of the most available stuff ever
03:22 <@dpeg> I don't think that Fire/Ice symmetry is good in general, and I dislike is especially with the DS mutations.
03:22 <@dpeg> Yes, the Fire and Ice sets are not ideal, so ideas are welcome. Simply symmetrising won't do.
03:27 -!- Twinge- is now known as Twinge
03:28 < Eronarn> does anyone else idslike the conservation
03:28 < Eronarn> it feels entirely forced
03:28 < Eronarn> to me
03:29 <@dpeg> I am not happy with it, but it does fit the facet
03:29 < TGW> I'm mostly a fan of the third-rank powers except cons
03:29 <@dpeg> and allows bringing items to the relevant hell, for example
03:29 <@dpeg> TGW: I like the ice mail
03:29 < Eronarn> dpeg: if we want to buff DS in hell, i think a more interesting way to do this is some facet that makes them immune to hell effects in "their" flavored hell
03:30 < TGW> ero: too narrow
03:30 < Eronarn> TGW: i mean, not exclusively that
03:31 < TGW> is like
03:31 < TGW> lavawalking + displacing flame clouds a reasonable thing?'
03:31 < Eronarn> i actually think that conservation doesn't fit the fire/ice facets - for example, draconians of no color get it
03:31 < Eronarn> TGW: displacing? that seems weird
03:31 < TGW> eronarn: or standing
03:32 < Eronarn> "The flames part before you!"
03:32 < Eronarn> - random thought, attacking things in flame clouds should have a damage shield effect
03:33 < Eronarn> as, presumably, it is more fire than something just being a fiery creature
03:33 < Eronarn> TGW: oh, how about a permanent fire cloud on top of you, have that be your damage shield, and get a "stoke flames" ability?
03:33 < Eronarn> chance to spread fire clouds to adjacent tiles
03:34 < Eronarn> useful, but not amazing, for just you. much better if you have other fire sources
03:34 < TGW> is steam off limits? 'cause it checks rF
03:35 < TGW> dunno if there's another branch for that though
03:35 < Eronarn> TGW: did you see my proposal for smoke demons?
03:35 < Eronarn> it makes them do choking smoke clouds that check asphyx, rather than steam. it's far more hellish
03:43 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@88-148-201-179.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
03:48 < TGW> !log
03:48 < Henzell> 9248. TGW, XL10 KoFE, T:11493: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/TGW/morgue-TGW-20100117-024748.txt
03:52 < Napkin> the ring of the City {-CAST +Blink rElec rPois rC++ rN+ Int+4}
03:53 < Napkin> omg
03:55 <@dpeg> TROG APPROVES
03:55 <@dpeg> the Int+4 is funny
03:55 < Napkin> :D
03:55 <@dpeg> but makes sense
03:55 < Napkin> Eifel found it in treasure trove
03:56 < Zannick> yeah, you'd be smart if you wore that ring
03:56 < Napkin> he's not casting spells.. so.. perfect :D
03:56 <@dpeg> Zannick: and you can use it well on low Int guys
03:56 < Napkin> -CAST only counts for him, right?
03:56 <@dpeg> yes
03:56 < Napkin> ok
03:57 < Napkin> did I mention that my XL21 char found his first boots in D26? :D
03:57 < Napkin> \o/
03:58 < nrook> Napkin: armour acquirements are your friend!
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03:58 < Napkin> that's how I found my only helmet ;-)
03:58 <@dpeg> hehe
04:03 < Napkin> lol, i love the fact, that uniques often have a bunch of units with them
04:03 < Napkin> "Oh.. a wardog!" :D
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04:09 <+due> what?
04:09 < Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
04:09 <+due> !messages
04:09 < Henzell> (1/1) TGW said (1h 36m 17s ago): make dowan and duvessa worth 74 exp, rather than 46 and 103!
04:09 <+due> ... why?
04:09 < TGW> compulsion
04:10 < Napkin> confusion causes the SH value to drop to 0?
04:10 < Napkin> hey, moin due!
04:10 <+due> Hi Napkin, dpeg, TGW!
04:10 <@dpeg> Hi due, due, due!
04:10 <@dpeg> Napkin: sounds like a bug
04:11 <+due> Well, if you're confused, you'll have difficulty blocking anything, no
04:11 < TGW> hey cool I'm on the hi list
04:11 <+due> *no?
04:11 <@dpeg> due: true
04:11 < Napkin> Eifeltrampel has a +1 shield and TSO's shield on - got confused by Erica and now has shield 0
04:11 < Napkin> 0 in blue
04:11 <@dpeg> ok
04:12 <+due> I think that's okay.
04:12 <+due> Though
04:12 < Napkin> so it's intended, due? did I understand you correctly? or just logically correct?
04:12 <+due> Napkin: Logically correct
04:13 <+due> I don't know if it's intentional
04:13 <@dpeg> Napkin: no, we now think it's okay
04:13 <@dpeg> due: the blue colour indicates it is intentional
04:13 <@dpeg> sorear emphasised that SH now shows what you get
04:13 <@dpeg> which is zilch if confused, it seems
04:13 < Eronarn> that, uh
04:13 < Eronarn> seems a bit big of an issue imo
04:14 < Napkin> maybe it is a bug?
04:14 < Napkin> not confused anymore - SH still blue 0
04:14 <+due> Oh, that's a bug.
04:15 <@dpeg> yes
04:15 <+due> Perhaps TSO's shield ability is borked?
04:15 <@dpeg> need to file
04:15 < Napkin> wait - it just wasn't updated
04:15 < Napkin> when confusion was over
04:15 <+due> Hm
04:15 <+due> Still file
04:15 <+due> That needs to be made clearer
04:16 < Napkin> looking at A and returning -> back to blue 42
04:16 <+due> That's a bug
04:16 < Napkin> ja, i'll tell him
04:16 <@dpeg> due: display bug?
04:16 <+due> dpeg: Yes
04:16 < Napkin> thanks, guys :)
04:16 <+due> dpeg: Confusion isn't sending the "update shield value on screen" message.
04:16 <+due> (When the duration ends0
04:16 <+due> However, I think it should be red if it's going to show up as 0 while confused
04:16 <+due> Like AC goes red when recharging for the demonspawn ability.
04:17 <@dpeg> file!
04:17 < Eronarn> demonspawn ability?
04:17 < Napkin> on my way
04:17 <+due> Eronarn: Ice coating thingy.
04:17 < Eronarn> oh
04:17 < Eronarn> haven't tried it yet
04:17 < Eronarn> that seems weird - why's it do that when ozo's doesn't?
04:18 <+due> Because Ozo's doesn't recharge?
04:18 <+due> You misunderstand me
04:18 <+due> When you're hit with fire, it evaporates and refors
04:18 <+due> While it's evaporated and  reforming and slowly increasing, AC is coloured red until completely reformed.
04:18 <@dpeg> due is talking about Ice Mail
04:19 <@dpeg> due: progress on the AC front! :)
04:19 < Eronarn> oh, i see
04:19 <+due> dpeg: Excellent!
04:21 < Napkin> done
04:21 < Ashenzari> SH value disply not reset correctly (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=452) by Napkin
04:21 < Napkin> *display
04:22 < Napkin> oh - he got confused again - and then the display didn't get updated to 0 either
04:22 <+due> Yep, definitely a display bug.
04:24 <+due> New tiles! :D
04:28 <+due> Too many pages of emails.
04:29 <@dpeg> due: delete the Mantis ones
04:29 <+due> I read them all :)
04:29 <+due>  iam OCD like this.
04:30 <+due> Does that commit by Darshan mean that shoals is no longer guaranteed on CDO?
04:31 < Napkin> he wanted to do that
04:31 <+due> Oh, swamp. that is *nice*.
04:31 <+due> Oh *man* that is so nice.
04:31 < Eronarn> due: you get 2 out of shoals, swamp, snake
04:31 < Eronarn> and YES. IT IS.
04:31 < Eronarn> <3
04:31 <+due> Yeah, but did you see what he DID?
04:31 <+due> It's beautiful now :(
04:32 <@dpeg> due: needs more polishing tweaks though :)
04:32 <+due> Yeah.
04:32 <@dpeg> with the Swamp vaults
04:32 < Eronarn> and the shallow water / trees
04:32 <+due> dpeg: Are we okay to add some "unique" frogs for Swamps?
04:32 < Eronarn> don't think he implemented that yet
04:33 <+due> Eronarn: Trees in shallow water?
04:33 < Eronarn> due: right now, the outside border is all trees
04:33 < Eronarn> you can start a fire and wait for it to burn down
04:33 < Eronarn> thus giving you a ton of room of waterless running around
04:33 <+due> Ahhh.
04:33 < Eronarn> the idea is that the trees are mangroves, so that after they burn down there is still shallow water underneath them
04:33 <@dpeg> yes, tree in water would be nice
04:34 <+due> So trees that burn down in swamp should be replaced by water?
04:34 <+due> That's easy.
04:34 <@dpeg> would simply be a new feature type
04:34 <+due> dpeg: New feature isn't even necessary.
04:34 < Eronarn> due: either replaced, or make trees and water compatible - e.g., for swimming things that can swim under the roots
04:34 <@dpeg> !tell greensnark Couldn't we get trees in shallow water by making that a new feature type?
04:34 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let greensnark know.
04:34 < Eronarn> yes, he had ideas for how to resolve it
04:34 <@dpeg> due: but then we can also have trees in shallow water in the main map
04:34 < Eronarn> he just didn't do them yet because they require a bti more discussion than spur of the moment IRC, i imagine
04:34 <@dpeg> will look cool in tiles
04:35 <+due> Though this kinda buffs Swamp hydras, as you can't dig into the border any more.
04:35 <@dpeg> that is good
04:35 <+due> Yeah.
04:35 < Eronarn> due: but there's a lot less water randomly around, easier to get a straight run away path
04:35 <+due> Yeah, I *realy* like it.
04:36 < Napkin> g'night! o/
04:36 <+due> dpeg: I'll convert the Swamp ending vaults if that's okay?
04:36 <@dpeg> due: thank you
04:36 <+due> I think Lemuel's pestilence and my Ice one just need tree borders...
04:36 <+due> Actually, I think that's all they need.
04:37 <@dpeg> yes, was about to say that
04:37 <+due> Stone is still fine, yeah?
04:37 <@dpeg> Napkin: yes, damn late here
04:37 <@dpeg> due: yes
04:37 < Napkin> agreed!
04:37 <+due> dpeg: Also, vaults are coming along well!
04:37 <@dpeg> <3
04:37 <+due> dpeg: If we get curvy-corridors for Snake, we'll have redone most of the major branches.
04:37 < Eronarn> oh, ice...
04:37 <@dpeg> with the AC stuff slowly getting along, we might release 0.6 in 2010 after all
04:37 <+due> That just leaves Slime's acid walls.
04:37 < Eronarn> that is one advantage of making shallow water and ice coexist: ice walls, which have liquid water running underneath them :D
04:37 <+due> Which should be very easy.
04:37 <@dpeg> due: much more minor
04:38 < Eronarn> er, shallow water and walls
04:38 <@dpeg> due: because Slime got so much cool stuff already
04:38 <@dpeg> due: plus Jiyva
04:38 <+due> Oh, it did?
04:38 < Eronarn> would be very neat for Cocytus
04:38 <+due> Oh, golden eyes. :D
04:38 <+due> and slime creatures, true.
04:38 <+due> What  are we going to do about yaks, btw?
04:38 <+due> The idea of a yak leader who, when killed, causes the rest of the pack to flee?
04:38 <@dpeg> due: and the transparent chamber walls in 0.4, and the new royal jelly
04:38 <+due> Okay.
04:39 <@dpeg> due: don't have to do something about yaks, really
04:39 <+due> dpeg: Also, what do you think of wide pools of water surrounded by trees for random vaults in Swampp?
04:39 < Eronarn> (By the way, speaking of tree walls in Swamp 5 - let breath weapons fire through them! <3)
04:39 <+due> This is something I have *always* wanted.
04:39 <@dpeg> due: sounds great
04:40 <+due> Have we put timecircuit's cat in the CREDITS for sixfihry?
04:40 <@dpeg> no idea, but he should go/be in
04:40 <@dpeg> sleep time
04:40 <+due> night!
04:40 <@dpeg> due: erm, 'cat' -- no :)
04:41 <+due> ;0
04:41 <+due> Okay, next week's play-testing post will be "Down and out with the Dungeon Builders".
04:41 <@dpeg> :)
04:41 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit ["zzz"]
04:42 < TGW> I am really not fond of ijyb
04:43 <+pointless_> TGW: You are just jealous because you don't own D:2
04:43 < TGW> he deals little damage, he's normal speed, no resists, no special attacks, usually no interesting equipment, etc
04:43 < TGW> just a goblin with too much hp
04:44 < TGW> -> kiting for 2000 turns until you get bored and fight
04:44 <+sorear> ijyb should have a guaranteed wand
04:44 -!- eith [n=eith@86-40-245-49-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Success]
04:44 <+due> We could make ijyb interestinger.
04:44 < TGW> and less hp
04:45 < TGW> less hp, more wand was exactly my suggestion
04:45 <+due> He could be a goblin prince and come with a mini-posse.
04:46 < TGW> eronarn: here?
04:46 < TGW> @??ijyb
04:46 < Gretell> Ijyb (g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 28 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 4 | Res: magic(12) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 25.
04:46 < Eronarn> TGW: when am i ever NOT here
04:46 < TGW> @??goblin
04:46 < Gretell> goblin (g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 2-6 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Damage: 4 | Res: magic(1) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1.
04:47 < TGW> eronarn: add dovescape to immense
04:47 < Eronarn> TGW: eventually
04:48 < Eronarn> it's not a top priority
04:48 < Eronarn> you can feel free to add it if you want to make sure i don't forget
04:49 < TGW> due: the level is his kingdom?
04:50 < Eronarn> i like the idea of him demanding tribute from the player, rather than immediately attacking
04:50 < TGW> we need a bunch of monsters that demand you drop your gold on the ground
04:50 < Eronarn> because starting gold amount variance + low amount of explored dlvls = easy to set a cost that may or may not be accessible
04:51 < Eronarn> not a big deal in the long run for, say, 100gp but it does mean you may not be able to buy early cloaks, helmets, etc.
04:55 <+due> Eronarn: Oh
04:55 <+due> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:blog:playtesting
04:55 <+due> Is that in the wrong place?
04:58 < Eronarn> due: it's only "wrong" in that i did not originally foresee a need for a blog section
04:58 < Eronarn> you can do it there, or in =blog: similar to =wiki: or =mantis:
04:59 < Eronarn> really up to you
04:59 <+due> Well, it's the dcss/CDO blog.
04:59 < Eronarn> if you got an error message, that's just the default error message when anyone uses any namespace i didn't make a template for
04:59 <+due> And the playtesting posts are specifically about DCSS.
04:59 < Eronarn> yeah, the stuff isn't in a unified place... like some are in the dcss: root directory
04:59 < Eronarn> for a few of the lists of priorities and such
05:00 < Eronarn> we could do a dcss:crud for that sort of thing, rather than using wiki: and mantis:, if we wanted
05:01 < Eronarn> i have no preference, so if someone has a strong one they should speak up, otherwise i'm just going to let people do their own thing unless it gets too tangled to be easy to navigate
05:06 < Ashenzari> Fedhas altar tile attempt (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=453) by purge
05:09 <+due> purge: It looks good, but I thin kit's not quite organic enough, if that makes any sense? It seems more like it would be covered with vines and plant lif.e..
05:09 < purge> OMG good point due and not hard to add vines hehe
05:09 < CIA-81> greensnark * r82fdff580c3a /crawl-ref/source/dgn-swamp.cc: Discard Swamp heightmap after building level so it doesn't get saved and waste space.
05:10 <+due> greensnark is around?
05:11 < purge> snarking in the shadows apparently
05:11 < purge> :)
05:11 <+due> :)
05:11 <+due> The new Swamp looks so good.
05:13 <+due> It somehow went from being "most annoying branch out" to "utterly aweosme".
05:14 < Eronarn> due: it still needs treefolk!
05:14 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
05:14 <+due> True.
05:14 <+due> !seen doy
05:14 < Henzell> I last saw doy at Sat Jan 16 23:32:58 2010 UTC (4h 41m 46s ago) saying Eronarn: yes, the "figuring out what walls are supposed to be" part was the part i was talking about being non-trivial on ##crawl-dev.
05:14 <+due> doy: Are you around?
05:14 <+sorear> Swamp has heightmaps now?
05:15 <+sorear> How does it differ from Shoal?
05:15 <+due> It's very different.
05:15 <+due> I think the height maps are just a way of generating the paths between the water and making it look good.
05:15 < Eronarn> sorear: the original proposal greensnark made did look a lot like Shoals
05:15 < Eronarn> but since then it's been inverted and tweaked and fiddled with
05:15 <+sorear> does swamp still have any uniqueness?
05:16 < Eronarn> different monster set
05:16 < Eronarn> i don't think it has any swamp-only things though
05:16 <+due> sorear: I've proposed unique frogs.
05:16 <+due> Annd greensnark has proposed alligators and crocodiles.
05:16 < Eronarn> i want plants
05:16 < Eronarn> both stationary ones, and treefolk
05:17 < Eronarn> "The mangrove strangler constricts you with its roots!"
05:17 < purge> how about a man-eating plant that cannot move, but has vines like kraken tentacles? :)
05:17 <+due> Too kraken-like.
05:17 < TGW> blood vines <3
05:17 < Eronarn> (the name is too cool not to use, of.c)
05:18 < Eronarn> ...oh man
05:18 <+due> Kraken ar supposed to be unique to Shoals.
05:18 < Eronarn> Undead Swamp 5 should totally have blood pools.
05:18 < TGW> :D
05:18 <+due> We don't need a plant kraken analogue for Swamp.
05:18 < Eronarn> it is where all the blood in the dungeon drains to
05:18 <@elly> blood pools are awesome.
05:18 < TGW> uh
05:18 <@elly> there should also be acid pools
05:18 < TGW> swamp dragons, swamp drakes, death drakes
05:18 <@elly> there should be *slivers*
05:19 < Eronarn> elly: Everything needs slivers.
05:19 < Eronarn> ...has any angband variant added slivers?
05:19 <@elly> slivers should be everywhere.
05:19 <@elly> no idea!
05:19 < ogaz> how would slivers work in Crawl?
05:19 <+due> ... waitt
05:19  * elly is *tempted* to make an angband variant based on MtG
05:19 < Eronarn> ogaz: bonuses if they can see other slivers.
05:19 < TGW> ogaz: how wouldn't they?
05:19 <+due> we need vampires in Swamp.
05:19 < TGW> that would actually work really well
05:19 < TGW> I thin'
05:19 < TGW> k
05:19 < Eronarn> elly: would the PC be a mook or a planeswalker
05:19 <+due> Vampires in swamp will get vetoed by dpeg, though.
05:19 <@elly> probably mook
05:19 < TGW> leeches are bad enough!
05:19 < Eronarn> setting it in time spiral block would work pretty well for that
05:20 < Eronarn> you can justify it with PORTALS. EVERYWHERE.
05:20 <+due> I'm going to program some frogs.
05:20 <@elly> Eronarn: well, you start as a really weak mook, and become better as you go
05:20 < Eronarn> @??leech
05:20 < Gretell> unknown monster: "leech"
05:20 < Eronarn> @??giant leech
05:20 < Gretell> giant leech (w) | Speed: 8 | HD: 6 | Health: 30-60 | AC/EV: 5/15 | Damage: 20(vampiric) | Flags: amphibious, evil | Res: magic(24) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 86.
05:20 < Eronarn> leech<3
05:20 < ogaz> maybe your goal in this variant is to become a planeswalker
05:20 <@elly> maybe
05:20 < TGW> perhaps someone should just make a magic roguelike
05:20 < Eronarn> ravnica would be a pretty fun roguelike
05:21 <@elly> problem: any attempt at this would have to wade through a vast sea of copyright and trademark infringement :P
05:21 < TGW> that's true :
05:21 < TGW> [
05:21 < Eronarn> pft, who cares
05:21 < Eronarn> nobody can stop information
05:21 < Eronarn> not even wizards.
05:21 <@elly> information wants to be free!
05:22 < Eronarn> information wants a footrub and a nice night in cuddling in front of the fireplace
05:22 < ogaz> Zendikar seems like it would make a good roguelike setting
05:22 < TGW> swamp needs brushwaggs
05:22 < Eronarn> it's worked so hard
05:22 < TGW> please don't talk about sets after tsp block
05:22 < purge> trolls seem like a creature that would dwell in swamps
05:22 < Eronarn> ogaz: i think the problem with zendikar as a roguelike setting is that it is TOO brutal
05:22 < Eronarn> everything can kill you
05:22 < Eronarn> even the ground
05:22 < Eronarn> especially the ground
05:23 < Eronarn> but, anyways, this is offtopic
05:23 <@elly> to -ot!
05:23 < Eronarn> treefolk! which spells would people want to see them with? I like the idea of them having illusions.
05:23 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
05:23 < Eronarn> or possibly spirit-related necromancy
05:23 <@elly> summon plants/animals
05:23 <+due> Necromancy is good.
05:23 < TGW> I want a plant with tloc
05:23 <+due> I like a "call monster" idea.
05:23 <+due> In that it summons  monsters as though it were noise.
05:24 < Eronarn> TGW: do you know what runners are, on plants?
05:24 < TGW> no
05:24 < ogaz> TGW: you've just made imagine a blinking oklob
05:24 < ogaz> thanks for the nightmares
05:24 < TGW> ogaz: well, not an oklob
05:24 < TGW> oklob but with poison instead of acid
05:24 < TGW> due: that IS cool
05:24 < Eronarn> TGW: runners are tiny little shoots that a plant sends off a good distance, and after a while they sprout roots, turning into a new plant
05:25 < TGW> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stolon3800ppx.JPG
05:25 < Eronarn> TGW: a plant that grows its runners via portal projectile from a main body, all across the level, and if one of the nodes sprouted from a runner grabs you it can blink you along the network back to the main body
05:25 < TGW> that sounds kind of annoying
05:25 <@elly> Zendikar is a perfect roguelike setting
05:26 <+sorear> ogaz: yellow draconian shifter = blink oklob
05:26 < Eronarn> due: you know, maybe there could be casting messages like "The wind whistles through the trees" for that
05:27 < Eronarn> that would be pretty neat
05:27 <+greensnark> due: Swamp will still be annoying :)
05:27 < Henzell> greensnark: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
05:27 < ogaz> sorear: but much later in the game, and in less open terrain
05:27 <+due> greensnark: AHAH!
05:27 <+due> greensnark: I need your help with something.
05:27 < TGW> kilobyte's forest branch should have malevolent flora that needs pollination
05:28 < Eronarn> TGW: there are tons and tons of ideas for plants
05:28 < Eronarn> and some of them are even good, amazingly enough
05:28 <+due> greensnark: MARKER: + = lua:restrict_door(), where restrict_door is a function that returns a new marker, seems to use identical markers for each door.
05:28 <+due> greensnark: How do I get it to use a new marker for each door? MARKER: + = lua:blah_blah:new{} didn't fix it.
05:28 < Eronarn> oh, here's one cool idea for forest - a strangler vine, the kind that grow on trees IRL and choke them to death gradually
05:28 <+greensnark> Hm, it shouldn't use the same marker
05:28 < Eronarn> these ones make zombie trees, and you can only clean the infestation by starting a forest fire
05:28 <+greensnark> Is your restrict_door function using common state in the markers?
05:28 < TGW> zombie trees that cast necromancy?
05:29 < TGW> like, what? even pain would get nuts on a tree scale
05:29 < Eronarn> TGW: no, just big, huge zombies
05:29 <+due> greensnark: one second
05:29 < Eronarn> of trees
05:29 <@elly> zombie trees are awesome
05:29 < TGW> why
05:29 < Eronarn> there could be undead trees that are intelligent, too
05:29 <+due> greensnark: http://sprunge.us/PGBA
05:29 < Eronarn> certainly if we do treefolk we can do undead treefolk
05:29 <+due> greensnark: I assumed it would call the function once for each time it placed a marker
05:29 < Eronarn> "ashen ash"
05:30 <@elly> TGW: zombie X is awesome, for all X
05:30 < TGW> elly: swamp worm
05:30 <@elly> like, if you picked up a meat ration, and it was actually a zombie meat ration... awesome.
05:30 < Eronarn> ...you know what we need
05:30 < Eronarn> creeping willows
05:30 <@elly> Eronarn: <333
05:30 <+due> Why not whomping willows?
05:31 < Eronarn> due: Cultural reference <300y.o.
05:31 < TGW> we need a doran unique
05:31 < TGW> makes things deal damage equal to their AC, don't you know
05:31 < Eronarn> wouldn't work well in crawl
05:31 <@elly> just have more AC
05:31 < ogaz> that would be hilarious with curse toes
05:31 < TGW> @??curse toe
05:31 < Gretell> curse toe (z) | Speed: 12 (move: 200%) | HD: 14 | Health: 77 | AC/EV: 50/1 | Flags: undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(immune), hellfire, cold, elec++, poison | XP: 7890 | Sp: summon undead, mushrooms, torment symbol.
05:31 < TGW> lol
05:31 < ogaz> it would also be hilarious with deep elf blademasters
05:32 < Eronarn> @??orb of fire
05:32 < Gretell> orb of fire (*) | Speed: 20 | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 20/20 | Flags: non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(immune), hellfire+++, cold, elec++, poison+++ | XP: 11717 | Sp: b.fire, polymorph other, fireball.
05:32 <+greensnark> due: It should call the function once per marker square
05:32 < TGW> eronarn: no more than it wouldn't work in magic
05:32 < TGW> just don't play it with giant solifuge
05:33 <+greensnark> due: You could add a crawl.mpr in the function and see if it gets called the right number of times?
05:34 <+due> greensnark: Good idea!
05:34 <+due> greensnark: Will me splitting lair.des into swamp.des, slime.des, snake.des and lair.des cause issues?
05:34 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["zzz"]
05:34 <+greensnark> Should be fine
05:34 <+due> Good, it's driving me crazy.
05:34 <+due> I had to scroll for half an hour to find the blasted Swmap endings.
05:37 <+greensnark> :P
05:39 <+due> Oh, excellent.
05:39 <+due> Just converting the extraneous rock/stone in the Swamp vaults was enough.
05:40 <+due> Perfect!
05:41 < TGW> we need pitcher plants
05:41 <+greensnark> due: Thanks :)
05:41 <+due> ... Wow
05:41 <+due> I'm editing the original swamp vault :o
05:41 < TGW> that mesmerise you, trap you then bathe you in acid
05:41 <+due> What a rush!
05:41 <+greensnark> due: Oooooooh!
05:41 <+greensnark> TGW: And destroy all your equipment?
05:41 < TGW> who made undead swamp?
05:42 < ogaz> due: can you "accidentally" delete undead swamp as well? :P
05:42 < TGW> greensnark: dunno
05:42 < ogaz> TGW: Lemuel
05:42 <+due> TGW: ... Lemuel.
05:42 < TGW> of course he did
05:42 <+due> ogaz: No, I love undead Swamp. Did you see my icy sswamp?
05:42 < ogaz> try not to be too surprised
05:42 < ogaz> due: no, but as long as it doesn't have miasma generators I'm okay with it
05:42 < TGW> ogaz: it has hydra simulacra
05:43 <+due> ogaz: It has freezing clouds and hydra simulacra *and an azure jelly*.
05:43 < ogaz> that's evil, but it still sounds preferable over miasma
05:43 < ogaz> also, iss there something like the phantom zone?
05:43 <+greensnark> We need a Lair vault with a moose
05:43 <+greensnark> m00se bites are very painful, you know.
05:44 < ogaz> greensnark: I can't decide whether to applaud that or throw things at you over the internet
05:44 <+greensnark> Moose would be like death yak, only ... moosier
05:46 <+greensnark> Forest fire doesn't seem to produce steam from adjacent water. Shall I make it do so
05:46 <+due> Yes.
05:46 <+due> Oops, I forgot to tes that they still work.
05:46 < CIA-81> due * rb8aec48a6b43 /crawl-ref/source/dat/ (lair.des slime.des snake.des swamp.des): Split lair.des into swamp.des, snake.des, slime.des and lair.des.
05:46 < CIA-81> due * rf990094082ee /crawl-ref/source/dat/swamp.des: Convert Swamp ending vaults to work with new Swamp layout.
05:47 <+due> Ah, they do.
05:47 <+due> greensnark: Will maps with large-ish deep pools of watter surroundeed by trees cause issue with Swamp generation?
05:47 <+greensnark> No
05:48 <+due> Awesome.
05:48 <+greensnark> Well, not after I've tweaked the vault placement code to accept water as overwriteable in Swamp
05:48 <+due> This has been something I have always wanted in swamp.
05:48 <+due> Ah
05:48 <+greensnark> Right now it'll only place vaults with water_ok
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05:48 <+due> Ahh
05:48 <+due> I also need to do the kraken guarding item in deep water.
05:48 <+due> Is there a way to mark an area as unaffected by tides until a monster dies?
05:49 <+greensnark> Until a monster dies, hm
05:49 <+greensnark> Telling the tide not to go somewhere is easy enough
05:49 <+due> It's then lifting the restriction at a later date?
05:49 <+greensnark> But undoing the restriction later is not so straightforward
05:50 <+due> How is the restriction placed?
05:50 <+due> Could we write a Lua wrapper to remove the restriction on a single grid?
05:50 <+greensnark> Let's see
05:50 <+due> I could then have a slaved marker system setup across each of the water cells.
05:50 <+greensnark> If we use an fprop I guess it would be reversible
05:50 <+due> Which the ncalls the "remove rstriction" function on those.
05:50 < TGW> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_fern
05:50  * greensnark looks at fprops.
05:50 <+due> Hm, would still need a runtime wrapper for removing fprops. should be easy enough.
05:50 <+due> Should I write that now?
05:51 < TGW> eronarn: there's your zombie plant
05:51 <+greensnark> due: Yes
05:51 <+due> Ferns are subtropical and tropical, though.
05:51 <+greensnark> We could use an FPROP_NO_TIDE or such?
05:51 <+due> Sure.
05:52 <+due> Is there enough space?
05:52 <+due> 1 << 10?
05:53 <+greensnark> Yes, there's enough
05:53 <+greensnark> prop is probably a 16 or 32 bit int
05:54 <+due> unsigned long
05:55 <+due> I cannot remember bit sizes of C++ types off the top of my head.
05:55 <+due> :D
05:55 <+greensnark> long can be 32 or 64, depends on compiler
05:56 <+due> So it's at least 32 bi.
05:56 <+due> *bit.
05:56 <+greensnark> On the platforms we use, yes
05:56 <+due> Hooray!
05:59 <+due> I'll do fprop_at while I'm at it, that'll come in handy one day.
06:02 <+greensnark> <3
06:03 < Cryp71c> Is it reasonable to get a mutation from a pot that's the same as DS Mut? (eg, I have MR2 via DS Mut, then I quaff pot of mut and get +1 MR (MR3)) ?
06:04 < Cryp71c> Obviously they don't conflict, rather, they coincide, I just didn't know if it was reasonable
06:07 <+sorear> why wouldn't it be
06:07 <+sorear> due: long is *guaranteed* to be at least 32 bits
06:08 <+sorear> due: int and short are guaranteed to be at least 16
06:08 < CIA-81> greensnark * r4bbe9c5b6bd9 /crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc cloud.cc dungeon.cc dungeon.h): Burning trees in Swamp produces shallow water. Fire clouds adjacent to watery squares now produce steam.
06:09 <+sorear> mind you, it's been about 35 years since C was designed and the minimum maximum ranges are looking a little small these days
06:09 <+sorear> I don't think Crawl will even run on a platform with 16 bit ints
06:10 <+greensnark> It won't
06:10 <+greensnark> Lots of places assume 32-bit int
06:10  * sorear is younger than C
06:10  * elly is too
06:12 < nrook> ugh, the two levels in a row have had big stone squares in the middle with OOD monsters
06:12 < CIA-81> greensnark * r34d58cf89833 /crawl-ref/source/maps.cc: All secondary vaults in the Swamp get an implicit water_ok tag, since they'll otherwise never be placed.
06:12 < nrook> I wonder when I'll find the wizard of yendor?
06:12 < nrook> er, this is ##crawl-dev, isn't it
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06:12 < nrook> sorry :(
06:13 <+greensnark> nrook: One day you will discover to your great dismay that you *are* the Wizard of Yendor.
06:14 < nrook> greensnark: and on that day, I will go off into the hills to live as my forefathers did, leaving an elvenking to take my place in our stultifying modern society
06:16 <+due> sorear: Awesome, thanks.
06:18 <+sorear> Will you write a tome of eldritch lore?
06:20 <+due> Hm.
06:21 <+due> Hm, I think I've fucked up with this code then.
06:22 < nrook> Yes. It will contain all of my best baking recipes!
06:22 <+greensnark> nrook: What will you do with your pet hell hound?
06:26 < nrook> greensnark: I will find it a wild bitch and scatter its young across the mountains, of course. These strange pups will sustain the careers of local "colorful" newspapers for years to come.
06:26 <+due> greensnark: Most of the mapdef code that deals with fprops is storing them as ints.
06:27 <+greensnark> due: Not a problem, but you can change them to unsigned long if you want to be noble :)
06:27 <+due> Okay.
06:28 <+greensnark> If you've added the no tide fprop, check it in so I can fix the tide code?
06:28 <+due> One sec
06:28 <+due> I should probably convert them to unsigned longs.
06:29 <+due> Let me make sure it compiles fisrt, will check in then.
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06:34 <+due> greensnark: Almost done.
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06:36 < Ashenzari> blink, teleport ability from mutation don't use MP (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=454) by Jinhlk
06:38 <+due> They weren't supposed to, were they?
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06:38 <+due> greensnark: Pushed.
06:39 < CIA-81> due * rc4246fc216be /crawl-ref/source/ (fprop.cc fprop.h initfile.cc initfile.h l_dgn.cc): Code to alter/check feature properties in Lua.
06:40 <+greensnark> Yay
06:41 <+due> Now converting fprops to unsigned longs... hooray for altering mapdef.h :/
06:41 <+greensnark> Ok, so I can add FPROP_NO_TIDE?
06:41 <+due> Yup.
06:41 <+due> Also, I made fprop_changed a switch. If it's there, it'll remove it; if it's not there, it'll add it.
06:47 <+greensnark> Hm, is there a wizmode command to set fprop
06:48 <+greensnark> Shall I horribly mangle &( to also parse fprops
06:48  * greensnark does that.
06:49 <+due> greensnark: What about destroyed trees in swamp leaving behind the relevant type of water instead of dry ground? Eronarn mentioned it.
06:49 <+greensnark> Already done
06:50 <+due> Oh. :D
06:50 <+greensnark> Clouds should be able to move through trees
06:50 <+due> Yes.
06:50 <+due> I am *so* for this.
06:50 <+due> Actually, I am just giong to do it.
06:51 <+due> Was that a "should" as in, "I have done", or should as in "Someone should make this so"?
06:52 <+due> Hm, we can maybe just limit it to certain types of "thin" cloud.
06:52 <+due> Hm, actually, no, all clouds should.
06:52 <+greensnark> Only thin clouds can dissipate into trees anyway
06:52 <+greensnark> Because clouds can't be placed directly into trees
06:53 < Eronarn> greensnark: they should be able to be: fire breath weapons through trees!
06:53 <+due> Eronarn: Think bigger!
06:53 <+due> Eronarn: Swamp drake breath through trees!
06:53 < Eronarn> due: yes! i proposed that hours ago!
06:53 < Eronarn> i've been trying to get someone to put it in!
06:53 <+greensnark> Fire breath would ignite the trees :P
06:53 <+due> greensnark: I'm making it so that clouds can be placed directly into trees.
06:54 <+greensnark> These aren't trees so much as sticks of gunpowder
06:54 <+greensnark> due: Ok :)
06:54 < Eronarn> greensnark: well, firedrakes already fire through "a plant" to get to you
06:54 < Eronarn> it'd probably be ok if they fired at tree walls
06:54 < Eronarn> if they saw you through them
06:54 <+due> And they're animals, so they don't care about igniting the trees.
06:54 < Eronarn> @??fire drake
06:54 < Gretell> fire drake (l) | Speed: 12 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 8 | Flags: fly | Res: magic(24), fire | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 182.
06:54 < Eronarn> fire res animals, to boot
06:55 <+due> Hm, this means dealing with tracers.
06:55 < Eronarn> ...oh man
06:56 < Eronarn> crocodiles/alligators that are submerged can have 'a snout' poke through the water instead of a ~
06:56 < Eronarn> like i proposed that sharks get fins
06:56 < Eronarn> BUT, swamp dragons/drakes can get the same thing :3
06:56 <+due> They don't submerge!
06:57 <+due> Thoguh drakes could.
06:57 < Eronarn> due: they don't currently, but i have proposed in the past that they should
06:57 < Eronarn> with the lagoons of water, instead of the tiny splotches, it would work much better
06:58 <+due> Hm
06:59 <+greensnark> As long as they don't submerge when hurt
06:59 <+greensnark> They should just submerge when they don't have a foe
07:00 <+greensnark> Submerge on injury is soooo annoying :P
07:00 <+due> Submerge on injury is stupid and should go.
07:00 < Eronarn> greensnark: this could be a good place to test new not-shoals water behaviors
07:01 < CIA-81> greensnark * r8d1fa5916d01 /crawl-ref/source/ (dgn-shoals.cc fprop.cc fprop.h mapdef.cc wiz-dgn.cc): Add FPROP_NO_TIDE to tell the tide not to touch certain squares.
07:01 < Eronarn> i like the idea of monsters that will flee into water, but only into their "home" lake, rather than any water
07:02 < Eronarn> they pursue you out of the water, but if they run, you have to catch them before they get back in
07:02 <+due> Home lakes are a bit diifficult.
07:03 <+greensnark> Could set patrol point
07:03 <+due> Oooh.
07:03 <+greensnark> But I don't know if the behaviour would be particularly player noticeable unless they were looking for it
07:03 <+due> patrolling swamp drakes with lakes.
07:03 < Eronarn> yeah, i just mean a patrol point - not some fancy thing to find out which lake is 'theirs'
07:04 <+due> I don't think it shoulld be for every swamp drake
07:04 <+due> but it might be nice for a pack of swamp drakes that live in a specific lake. <3
07:04 < Eronarn> due: swamp drake broodlings!
07:04 <+greensnark> due: You going to do that? :)
07:04 <+greensnark> You could also let swamp drakes submerge
07:04 <+greensnark> Only when foeless, of course :P
07:05 <+greensnark> Or I guess when very close to home where applicable
07:05 <+greensnark> Although that would still be annoying
07:05 <+due> I'm doing lakes shortly.
07:06 <+due> Bah, clouds in trees isn't working.
07:06 <+due> eh, too tired for this.
07:16 < CIA-81> greensnark * ra660d9f8bb8a /crawl-ref/source/ (actor.h player.h): Remove unused you.youpos, fix comment on actor::move_to_pos.
07:19 <+due> Heh, your lastcommit actually conflicted with the one I was rebasing.
07:19 <+due> (The one before you.youpos).
07:20 <+greensnark> git <<<<<<33333333 you
07:20 <+due> Pretty much.
07:23 <+due> Hm. Something just broke save compatability.
07:24 <+due> greensnark: Did I break something? :)
07:26 <+greensnark> Hm
07:27 <+greensnark> Don't see anything dangerous
07:27 <+due> Odd
07:27 <+due> http://sprunge.us/KCRB
07:27 <+due> They're al map changes.
07:28 <+due> So I don't get why it won't open my save files... oh, I think I deleted half of them. That might be the problem.
07:29 <+due> It doesn't crash, so I guess it's okay.
07:33 <+due> Oh, how delightful, we hit player.h and actor.h!
07:33 <+greensnark> Anything to improve your compile times :)
07:33  * greensnark is here to help.
07:33  * due beats greensnark with a dowsing rod.
07:34 <+due> (That's the title of the divinations removal play-testing post: hit me with your dowsing rod)
07:34 <+greensnark> Is that supposed to sound kinky
07:36 <+due> "hit me with your rhythym stick" :)
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07:39 <+due> We should move lev-pand.cc to dgn-pand.cc, no?
07:39 <+greensnark> Hm, yes
07:40 <+greensnark> The actual Pan level building should also be moved there
07:40 <+greensnark> It seems to contain just some misc routines
07:40 <+greensnark> dungeon.cc needs to be split up :P
07:40 <+greensnark> Or renamed to katamari.cc
07:40 <+due> LOL.
07:40 <+due> Agree.
07:40 <+due> We could maybe move unique placement into its own file.
07:41 <+greensnark> Yes, ideally dungeon.cc would have just the utility routines that the various builders use
07:42 <+due> Which reminds me to parameterise the l_dgnbld.cc functions so that they can be reused for different l_dgnbld.cc functions.
07:43 <+sorear> dungeon bold?
07:43 <+sorear> Ben Harrison has invaded Crawl?
07:44 <+due> dungeon build :)
07:44 <@elly> sorear: oh no :(
07:46 <+due> who?
07:46 <@elly> the angband dude
07:46 <@elly> responsible for cave_feat_bold, iirc
07:47 <+due> oh
07:48 <+sorear> infamous for his inability to make useful names
07:48 <+sorear> also his "overuse" of "quotation" "marks"
07:48 <@elly> was Ben Harrison the 'all "compound nouns" are in "quotation marks" guy?'
07:48 <@elly> ah, yes
07:48 <+due> Is that almost as "bad" as when people "use" quotation marks for "emphasis"!
07:48 <+greensnark> Well, all old school maintainers need their verbal tics
07:48 <@elly> he wasn't even using them for emphasis
07:48 <@elly> more just as decoration
07:48 <+greensnark> Brent had ... inappropriate ... ellipses
07:49 <+sorear> he sued them for Angband-specific terms
07:49 <+sorear> if you could find them in a standard dictionary, he left them outside quotes
07:49 <+due> That is an amusing typo!
07:50 <@elly> sorear: where angband-specific includes things like "line of sight"
07:50 <+sorear> and "monster"
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07:53 <@elly> and "integer"
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07:56 < Cryp71c> Are there conditions under which a potion of levitaiton will not produce a warning message?
07:56 <+due> Such as, "You float up into the air"?
07:56 <+due> Or as in, "Your levitation is almost running out"?
07:56 < Cryp71c> due, the second
07:56 <+due> Hm.
07:57 <+due> Well, the only instances it won't produce a warning message wouldn't be specific to a potion of levitation.
07:57 <+due> Spell, potion, and evocation all use DUR_LEVITATION or whatever.
07:57 <+sorear> the warning message will always be generated
07:57 <+due> And I can't think of any instances where that wouldn't generate one.
07:57 <+sorear> if you miss it, it's your own fault
07:57 <+due> Yeah.
07:58 <+due> What about a one-turn duration or something like that?
07:58 < Cryp71c> sorear, is it logged in ctrl + p? (the 'levitation is running out' message)
07:58 <+sorear> of course
07:59 <+sorear> due: 1. those don't happen 2. you still get the obvious short duration indicator
07:59 <+due> sorear: Yeah.
07:59 <+sorear> Did Cryp71c just die?
07:59 < Cryp71c> sorear, nope, I managed to scramble
07:59 <+sorear> Is he trying to blame it on us?
07:59 < Cryp71c> but there was no message.
08:00 < Cryp71c> Nothing in the log
08:00 <+due> @whereis Cryp71c
08:00 < Gretell> No where information for Cryp71c ().
08:00 < Cryp71c> cryptic
08:00 <+due> Local game?
08:00 <+due> @whereis cryptic
08:00 < Gretell> No where information for cryptic ().
08:00 <+due> @whereis Cryptic
08:00 < Gretell> Cryptic the Severer (L14 DSBe), a worshipper of Trog, is currently on Hive:2 after 33508 turns.
08:00 <+sorear> well if somebody else wants to investigate, go ahead
08:00 <+due> http://crawl.develz.org/saves/Cryptic-cd12798-100117-0800.tar.bz2
08:01 <+sorear> I bet he removed a +Lev item and isn't admitting it
08:02 <+due> Hm.
08:02 <+due> Oh, you haven't saved?
08:02 <+due> Bah.
08:03 < Cryp71c> Sorry back
08:03 < Cryp71c> sorear, potion of levi
08:03 < Cryp71c> due, there, saved.
08:04 <+sorear> due: let me know if there's any actual bug
08:04 < CIA-81> due * r7cab36931b74 /crawl-ref/source/ (l_dgn.cc mapdef.cc mapdef.h): Convert fprop instances in mapdef.* to unsigned long. (greensnark)
08:06 <+due> The yellow wasp stings you but doesn't do any damage.
08:06 <+due> You miss the yellow wasp.
08:06 <+due> Your kick misses the yellow wasp.
08:06 <+due> You are starting to lose your buoyancy!
08:06 <+due> The yellow wasp is engulfed in flames!
08:06 <+due> Cryp71c: Here is your $10 glasses gift voucher..
08:06 <+due> :)
08:08 < Cryp71c> :(
08:08 <+sorear> If I had a nickel for every time somebody came to the DevTeam crying about levitation wearing off when they weren't paying enough attention to see the warning, I would be a rich man
08:08 <+sorear> I hope there's never an actual bug
08:08 <+sorear> because if there is one, nobody will beleive it
08:08 <+due> No, an actual buug would be tres awkward.
08:08 <+due> But I checked anyway.
08:09 <+due> Cryp71c: force_more_message = You are starting to lose your buoyancy!
08:09 <+greensnark> Why not just make tht force_more the default
08:09 < Cryp71c> that might be nice.
08:09 <+due> It's probably a good idea.
08:10 <+due> Okay, swamp pools!
08:11 <+greensnark> Can we have Baba Yaga as a unique in the Swamp!
08:11  * greensnark <3 Baba Yaga
08:12 <+greensnark> Dunno what spells she'd use though :P
08:12 <+greensnark> And we'd need her walking hut
08:12 <+due> Yes.
08:12 <+due> Walking hut is easy.
08:12 <+due> I even know how to do the portal vault thingy!
08:13 <+due> I can use the execute-Lua-code-on-death thing that Matthew did for TRJ.
08:16  * due making swamp entries.
08:23 <+due> greensnark: Why isn't swamp placing minivaults?
08:23 <+due> Or float vaults?
08:24 <+greensnark> You have the latest changes?
08:25 <+greensnark> It should be placing them now
08:25 <+due> Nope :/
08:25 <+greensnark> I just called up a Swamp:1 with lemuel's yak island
08:25 <+due> Hm.
08:25 <+greensnark> Possibly the dummy balancer is too harsh for Swamp?
08:26 <+due> I set the weight of the vault to 1000000 and included a crawl.mpr statement.
08:26 <+greensnark> sprunge it and I'll try
08:27 <+greensnark> It just placed the library on Swamp:2 as well
08:27 <+greensnark> Library sticks out like a sore thumb ;P
08:27 <+due> http://sprunge.us/bDUh
08:27 <+due> Yeah, we need to go through and cull some vault tags.
08:27 <+due> There are a lot that no longer make sense in smoe branches.
08:28 <+greensnark> Um, that weight
08:28 <+greensnark> Is too large
08:28 <+due> Even setting it to 300 does nothing.
08:28 <+due> I just held the 0 key down for my last attempt :0
08:29 <+greensnark> Let me check if floating vaults are placed
08:29 <+greensnark> Oh, you need a depth
08:29 < ortoslon> potions of agility/brilliance should recover attributes
08:29 <+greensnark> And you do have a depth, sorry
08:29 <+due> Ahah!
08:29 <+due> Removing float helps.
08:30 < ortoslon> that way they'll be useful as emergency items in hells
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08:33 <+greensnark> due: Only 11% chance of even trying to place a floating vault per level
08:34 <+greensnark> due: You can adjust dummy.des if we have enough vaults now
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08:53 <+due> Ahh.
08:54 <+due> Could maybe just have a Swamp-specific vault.
08:55 <+due> Er, dummy.
08:55 <+due> greensnark: I have no idea how to tweak them though.
08:56 <+due> Eh, it  doesn't matter that much.
08:57 < ortoslon> is amulet of stasis meant to cost 1gold?
08:57 <+due> No.
08:57 <+greensnark> :P
08:57 <+due> Someone forgot to give it a cost.
08:58 <+due> Will fix.
08:58  * due smacks greensnark.
08:58 <+greensnark> due: Just copy the existing dummy with DEPTH: Swamp, add !Swamp to the old dummy, and set the probability for the Swamp dummy appropriately
08:59 <+due> Okay!
08:59 <+due> Which one affects minivaults?
08:59 <+greensnark> primary_mini_dummy
08:59 <+due> Okay.
08:59 <+due> I'll do both, I think.
09:00 <+greensnark> Maybe make the non-mini dummy less likely?
09:00 <+greensnark> We could drop it back to 6666 as well to add more delicious vaults to the dungeon
09:00 <+greensnark> Don't know how many non minivaults we have though
09:00 <+due> Me neither.
09:02 <+greensnark> Swamp seems to have very few non-minivaults
09:02 <+greensnark> Only onia's swampy vault
09:04 <+greensnark> http://sprunge.us/ENEX
09:05 < ortoslon> maybe make berserk prevent using stairs
09:05 <+due> ortoslon: ... why?
09:05 < ortoslon> i tried to imagine going upstairs furiously
09:06 <+due> No, I mean, why nerf berserk so massively?
09:06 <+greensnark> Haven't you seen anyone stomping up stairs in a rage? :P
09:06 < ortoslon> hmm yes :P
09:07 <+due> greensnark: swampy_vault doesn't really vit in with vaults now.
09:07 <+greensnark> vit in with vaults?
09:07 <+greensnark> :P
09:07 <+due> Er, fit in with swamp now.
09:07 <+greensnark> Is it fixable?
09:08 <+greensnark> Or if not, could just be removed from Swamp
09:08 <+due> Not really, not without duplicating it for Swamp.
09:08 <+due> I think I'll just remove it from Swamp.
09:08 <+due> But having a "throwback" Swamp ending might be col.
09:09 <+due> A large plateau surrounded by a thick wall of trees with the old Swamp builder-style internals.
09:09 <+greensnark> Yeah, the old Swamp builder could be callable from Lua
09:09 <+greensnark> The code is in dgn-swamp.cc, ifdefed out
09:10 <+due> Or converted into an l_dgnbld function.
09:10 <+greensnark> Or that, it's pretty simple code
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09:10 <+due> Hm.
09:11 <+due> Didn't it just take the current map and work on it a few times, like the Lair ruination patterns?
09:11 <+due> Might be easier to just duplicate with substs and shuffles.
09:11 <+greensnark> It converts doors to floor, 1/3 of floor to shallow water, and rock to shallow/deep water, weighted toward shallow
09:12 <+greensnark> So yes, easily substable
09:12 <+doy> i'm not sure i like the height maps for swamp, i'm going to write my own swamp layout at some point i think
09:12 <+due> $140 for stasis?
09:12 <+doy> probably not for a couple weeks though
09:13 <+due> doy: I think it's currnetly awesome.
09:13 <+doy> but having multiple layouts is a good thing, so
09:13 <+due> It looks more like a swamp than it did before.
09:13 <+doy> due: you pinged?
09:13 <+doy> due: oh, certainly
09:13 <+due> @whereis doy
09:13 < Gretell> doy the Skirmisher (L4 DrCr) saved on D:4 on 2010-01-11 after 4297 turns.
09:13 <+greensnark> doy: Why not, we can change the builder or replace it if we have a better layout builder
09:13 <+doy> the old layout is pretty bad
09:13 <+due> Are you playing that at all?
09:13 <+doy> (:
09:13 <+doy> greensnark: yes
09:13 <+greensnark> due: Are $140 sounds fine, thanks! :)
09:13 <+greensnark> Er, s/Are//
09:13 <+doy> due: i think i just started it when i was bored a few days ago, why?
09:14 <+due> It's the only game on that version of trunk. ):
09:14 <+due> *:)
09:14 <+greensnark> Can it be migrated?
09:14 <+doy> feel free to toss it if it's an issue
09:14 <+doy> (:
09:14 <+greensnark> Is there a script to auto-migrate games
09:15 <+doy> there has to be, it's given as an option when you load a save from an old version on cdo
09:15 <+due> I don't know how to access that, though.
09:16 <+due> I'll wait 'til napkin comes online ):
09:17 < CIA-81> due * r0ac7928587d0 /crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: Give Amulet of Stasis a cost (ogaz).
09:17 <+greensnark> You just have to say the name three times
09:17 <+greensnark> Napking Napking Napking
09:18  * greensnark waits for Napking to appear.
09:18 <+due> Wrong time of day for this time of the week, no?
09:18 <+due> Oh, 9am.
09:18 <+due> :)
09:19 <+greensnark> Yeah, wrong time of day :P
09:19 <+greensnark> He might wake up in a few hours :)
09:19 <+due> Once the robotic hibernation ceases?
09:20 <+greensnark> Don't remind me of Mr Roboto
09:20 <+greensnark> I have this terrible urge to listen to it
09:20 <+greensnark> And then it infests my brain for weeks
09:20 <+greensnark> Nooooo, you made me do it
09:22 <+due> I don't even know what that is.
09:22 <+sorear> greensnark: what do you think of !send?
09:22  * due looks up on YouTube.
09:22 <+greensnark> sorear: ?
09:28 <+greensnark> Hey there Cthulhu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut82TDjciSg
09:28 <+due> greensnark: Does it only ever place one minivault?
09:30 <+greensnark> due: Looks like it
09:30 <+greensnark> Unless the vault it picks has the "extra" tag
09:31 <+due> Ahhhh.
09:36 <+sorear> we should just scrap staff damage
09:37 <+sorear> it's a silly gimmick
09:37 <+doy> ?
09:37 <+doy> why?
09:39 <+greensnark> Staff damage needs some sanity applied, at least
09:39 <+greensnark> They all do ridiculous amounts of damage
09:39 <+doy> sure
09:39 <+due> Why not just make them branded?
09:39 <+doy> i don't think it needs to be scrapped though
09:39 <+doy> due: that would just make them too weak too be even worth using
09:39 <+due> Fire = flaming, ice = freezing, earth = crushing, death = pain?
09:40 <+doy> since they're basically just +0 quarterstaves otherwise
09:40 <+doy> unenchantable
09:40 <+due> Well, the pluses can still be determined by the relative magic skill.
09:41 <+doy> yeah, there should be some way to buff the damage
09:41 <+doy> otherwise it would just not be used at all
09:41 <+greensnark> But they shouldn't really be comparable to the best melee weapons
09:41 <+doy> which is too far in the other direction i think
09:41 <+doy> sure
09:41 <+greensnark> When they also boost magic skills
09:41 <+due> But I don't get why there's all this fancy stuff involving damage calculations and things.
09:41 <+doy> they don't need to be
09:41 <+doy> due: because weapon enchantment is so meaningless
09:42 <+due> Hm.
09:42 <+due> But why does staff of death use different mechanisms to pain branded weapons for calculating bonus damage?
09:42 <+doy> does it use similar mechanisms to the other staves?
09:43 <+due> ??staff of death
09:43 < Henzell> staff of death[1/1]: Aids necromancy (cf. staves of conjuration etc.).
09:43 <+due> ??pain
09:43 < Henzell> pain[1/2]: L1 necro spell, exclusive to the Book of Necromancy.  Inflicts 1hp non-fatal damage on the caster. Does 1d(4 + pow/5) damage, with a limit of 100 power, and bypasses AC - but checks MR and only affects those without life protection.
09:43 <+due> ??pain[2]
09:43 < Henzell> pain[2/2]: Brand which inflicts 1d(necromancy skill) extra damage on necro+1 out of 8 successful hits.  Does not affect those with rneg (demons, undead, shadow dragons, death drakes, Daevas).  Available as a temp brand (Excruciating Wounds - L5 ench/necro; Unlife) but not affixable. (For the record, a monster's necromancy skill is HD/3, HD/2 if undead.)
09:43 <+doy> pain brand always has seemed pretty strange to me
09:43 <+due> I'm pretty sure staff of death bonus is different to pain brand, at least, this is what was indicated to me in ##crawl once.
09:43 < Mu_> so is air
09:43 < Mu_> ??staff damage
09:43 < Henzell> staff damage[1/2]: Enhancer staves (fire, cold, air, death) have (Evoc + 1)/15 chance of doing 1d(1.25 * (Evoc + skill)) extra damage that ignores AC, but checks the appropriate resistance. On top of the evocations check, air needs to pass a (damage dealt + air + 1)/20 chance, and death a (necro + 1)/8 chance. The {staff of poison} is handled differently.
09:44 <+due> Yeah.
09:44 <+due> They work off *evocations*.
09:44 <+due> *Why*?
09:44 <+doy> yeah, staff of death uses the same formula as the rest of the staves the
09:44 <+doy> which is reasonable
09:44 < Mu_> i really like them as they are
09:44 <+doy> due: because evocations is the skill that you use to get abilities out of items?
09:44 <+due> That's like saying "Hm, well, using spellcasting would be too cheap. Let's use evocations instead!"
09:44 <+doy> it makes sense to me
09:45 <+due> doy: You don't need evocations skill to get your weapon to flame if it's flame branded, nor does evocations affect the bonuses from staves.
09:45 <+doy> the staff damage isn't a spell
09:45 <+doy> so i don't see why it would use spellcasting
09:45 <+due> Hm.
09:45 <+due> Wait, so you don't need any magic skill to use fire or cold stavesin combat?
09:46 < Mu_> right
09:46 <+due> It always seemed to be "If you want to do a staves build, you need good staves skill, evocatoins, spellcasting, and the relevant spell school."
09:46 <+doy> i think the damage should probably be toned down for most of them
09:47 <+doy> they shouldn't do more damage than high-end melee weapons
09:47 < Mu_> well they need the investment and they're resisted by large parts of the game
09:48 <+doy> sure
09:48 < Mu_> high end melee weapons don't find enemies that negate their entire damage ;p
09:49 <+due> I just never saw the point.
09:49 <+due> Too much effort. :)
09:50 <+doy> but spellcaster builds already have spells
09:52 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1754476
09:52 <+due> Thoughts on general shape?
09:52 <+sorear> really, this is all my fault
09:53 <+due> Aside from the top bit.
09:56 <+due> sorear: why?
09:57 <+doy> because sorear likes being dramatic
09:57 < Mu_> oh wow swamp is all different looking
09:57 <+due> Mu_: isn't it aweseome?
09:58 < Mu_> it looks tidier
09:58 <+doy> i don't like swamp looking tidy/:
09:58 < Mu_> i don't think you really need a little subcompartment for the rune ;p
09:59 <+doy> i do like it a lot better than the old layout though!
09:59 < Mu_> do you even need stone? could the vault just be trees?
09:59 <+due> No, needs to be stone.
09:59 <+due> And I like the vault subcompartment.
09:59 <+due> It makes kiting the rune annoying. :)
09:59 <+doy> kiting the rune?
09:59 <+greensnark> Vault can be trees, but trees are easily burned
10:00 < Mu_> ah
10:00 <+doy> and trees are see-through
10:00 < Mu_> i didn't think that many would be
10:00 < st_> what if you had tons of stuff hiding in the trees to ambush people who burn them
10:00 <+doy> well, yeah, depends on how deep they are
10:00 <+doy> st_: meh
10:00 <+due> Oh man, my old-school generator works perfectly.
10:01 <+due> doy: Running in and running back out again with th erune.
10:01 <+doy> that's not 'kiting'
10:01 <+doy> (:
10:01 <+due> Hm.
10:01 <+due> Kiting is when you drag a monster away from a pack.
10:01 <+due> Kiting the rune is where you drag the rune away from a pack of monsters! That makes sense.
10:01 <+doy> kiting is when you abuse the speed system to get free attacks
10:01 <+doy> not when you drag a monster away
10:01 <+due> Oh, it is?
10:02 <+doy> yeah
10:02 <+due> Hm.
10:02 <+doy> like alternating backing up and attacking in such a way that the slower monster can't counterattack
10:02 <+due> I always thought kiting was when you were doing say, Tomb:3, and you wander down and grab a greater, and then run away frmo the pack so that they don't notice you.
10:03 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1754480 Still needs tweaks and monsters.
10:03 <+greensnark> Put in the Lernaean hydra :P
10:04 <+due> ... I'd seriously debate it.
10:04 <+doy> has that been added yet?
10:04 <+due> If I didn't think I'd get shot.
10:04 <+greensnark> @??the Lernaean hydra
10:04 < Gretell> the Lernaean hydra (D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(120), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 7599.
10:04 <+doy> nice
10:04 <+greensnark> It just doesn't have a home
10:04 < Mu_> it still doesn't spawn anywhere :(
10:04 <+greensnark> It's been around since 0.5
10:04 <+doy> aw
10:04 <+sorear> Why doesn't it spawn?
10:05 < Mu_> make it spawn patrolling just behind that blind corner on the way to the rune ;-)
10:05 <+doy> yeah, should have a chance of spawning on swamp end or so at least
10:05 <+sorear> Also, why is it HD:30
10:05 <+doy> sorear: does it matter?
10:05 <+due> @??hydra
10:05 < Gretell> hydra (D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 39-104 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(52), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 1214.
10:05 <+doy> i guess polymorph would be pretty ridiculous
10:05 <+greensnark> 30 is orb of fire material
10:05 <+sorear> doy: it offends my sense of order to have HD>27 monsters
10:05 <+doy> considering mr120 isn't that much
10:05 <+greensnark> @?? orb of fire
10:05 < Gretell> orb of fire (*) | Speed: 20 | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 20/20 | Flags: non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(immune), hellfire+++, cold, elec++, poison+++ | XP: 11717 | Sp: b.fire, polymorph other, fireball.
10:05 <+due> Haha, a HD30, 27-headed hydra.
10:06 <+due> And it's only 7600exp.
10:06 <+greensnark> Well, the HD isn't doing much for it :P
10:06 <+greensnark> Now, if you gave it the ability to throw stuff :P
10:06 <+doy> due: that seems like a reasonable amount of xp
10:06 <+sorear> you could give it spells:
10:06 <+greensnark> The HD 30 would suddenly become powerfully useful :P
10:06 <+doy> considering it's melee-only, and speed 10
10:06 <+due> Old school swamp vault looks stupidly awesome.
10:07 <+due> Yes, I am termcasting it.
10:07 <+greensnark> I thought you fixed the weight? :P
10:08  * greensnark demands the Lernaean hydra.
10:08 <+due> Didn't have a testing weight for the ending, though.
10:08 <+due> Which is a completely different thing
10:08 <+greensnark> Also add some extra hydras to the swamp alternative ending
10:08 <+due> Think it looks old-school enough?
10:08 <+greensnark> The one with the fire drake
10:09 <+due> the fiery one?
10:09 <+greensnark> Not the fiery one
10:09 <+due> Oh.
10:09 <+greensnark> The one with alternative in the name 
10:09 <+due> Tha tdoesn't have a fire drake, I don't think.
10:09 <+due> Oh, it does.
10:09 <+greensnark> It's always been underpopulated
10:09 <+due> How many more?
10:09 <+due> Four enough?
10:10 <+greensnark> 1=11., 4=44. :)
10:10 <+greensnark> Er, 3=33.
10:10  * greensnark likes hydras.
10:10 <+due> Eh, okay. :)
10:10 <+due> Still need monsters here.
10:11 <+due> I think it looks pretty old-school.
10:12 < st_> are the other swamp ends stone walls?
10:12 <+due> Every swamp end is stone walls.
10:12 <+due> We need more swamp mist in swamp.
10:13 <+due> Maybe that's a few too many monsters.
10:13 <+due> Oh yeah.
10:13 <+due> Mmm, hydralicious.
10:14 <+due> That's slightly better.
10:14 <+due> 14 hydrae?
10:15 <+greensnark> Too many? :P
10:15 <+greensnark> 14 sounds fine to me!
10:15 <+greensnark> That ending was always too easy, it has some catching up to do :P
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10:15 <+due> Too many swamp dragons!
10:15 <+greensnark> Maybe 1=111.. and 3=333.. ?
10:16 <+greensnark> Or are you referring to your new vault?
10:16 <+due> New vault.
10:16 <+greensnark> The classic Swamp vault had a decent monster count, something not too far from that
10:16 <+greensnark> Say within 2x of that :P
10:17 <+due> 31 monsters, 7 swamp drakes, 5 swamp dragons, the rest are hydrae.
10:17 <+greensnark> With the Lernaean hydra as the boss thing
10:17 <+due> I'll have to run the Lernaean hydra past David, I think.
10:17 <+greensnark> Didn't he want it in Swamp?
10:17 <+greensnark> Why was it added and not used?
10:17 <+due> Oooh swarm.
10:17 <+due> I have o idea.
10:18 <+due> 12 swamp dragons sounds about right.
10:18 <+due> That one has 23 monsters.
10:18 <+sorear> Swamp:$ should have walls that look like they're carved with countless reliefs of hydras
10:19 <+sorear> then when you pick up the rune, every wall square turns into a real hydra
10:19 <+due> It's probably too unbalanced, I'd better do it by glyphs.
10:20 <+greensnark> I wanted something like that for Mu's fleshworks :P
10:20 <+due> 14 hdyra.
10:20 <+greensnark> A corridor of writhing flesh that dissolves into pulsating lumps when the player reaches midpoint :P
10:20 <+due> The walls come alive?
10:20 <+due> Oh man, that would be cool.
10:20 <+greensnark> Players would hate it though :P
10:20 <+due> True.
10:20 <+greensnark> They do have that mutating hit :P
10:21 <+due> 15 hydra, 10 swamp dragons, I'll toss in a couple of swamp drakes.
10:21 <+greensnark> Can we fix swamp drakes?
10:21 <+greensnark> They never seem to confuse
10:22 <+due> Yeah, their cloud bursts are too short.
10:22 <+due> I'm not sure whwy.
10:23 <+due> 17 monsters!
10:23 <+due> Oops, wrong order.
10:23 <+sorear> greensnark: you have it backward
10:24 <+sorear> "players would hate it" is a reason TO do something
10:24 <+due> I think that's pretty reasonable.
10:25 <+due> Hey, I'm pretty happy with this.
10:25 <+due> Or not.
10:25 <+due> Should have 10 hydras and 10 swamp drakes on avera.
10:26 <+due> Ah, that works.
10:26 <+greensnark> Avera's digs hydras, does she
10:26 <+greensnark> Er, Avera
10:26 <+due> Avera?
10:26 <+greensnark> That's what you said!
10:26 <+due> Average.
10:26 <+due> Do we have a way of calculating the gross exp of a map a dozen times or so?
10:26 <+due> I would greatly appreciate this.
10:27 <+greensnark> Could modify place-pop to do it
10:27 <+due> Could you? I'm going for food, back in a bit.
10:27 <+greensnark> Sure
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10:38 <+due> I am back.
10:40 <+Zaba> wb due
10:40 <+due> Hi zaba!
10:41 <+due> Zaba, your map eye is needed.
10:41 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1754508
10:42 <+Zaba> looks good
10:43 <+due> Darshan wants me to place the Larnaean hydra over the rune
10:44 <+due> It looks kinda like old school swamp
10:44 <+due> Like, *really* like old school swamp. I'm pretty happy with it.
10:44 <+due> The only other thing I'd debate doing having different pathways, but that's too complicated.
10:45 <+due> Might randomise the corridor some.
10:45 < AceTetra> isn't a 27-headed hydra basically an instakill if it gets adjacent?
10:46 <+sorear> no
10:46 <+due> No.
10:46 <+sorear> if you have 0 ac and 0 ev sure
10:46 <+sorear> but 27 heads = 27 AC rolls
10:46 <+sorear> even if you have mediocre AC, it'll still take a huge bite out
10:46 <+due> @??the lernaean hydra
10:46 < Gretell> the Lernaean hydra (D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(120), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 7599.
10:47 <+sorear> even a caster should have 15-20 ac by swamp:5
10:47 <+sorear> more if ozie's armor is in use
10:47 <+due> Or be able to get it.
10:47 < AceTetra> oh, so SpBe is obviously a challenge class then
10:47 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
10:47 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
10:47 <+due> dpeg!!
10:47 <@dpeg> cheers
10:48 <@dpeg> gotta play Lego, later :)
10:48 <+due> Bah!
10:48 <+due> Okay.
10:48 < AceTetra> best excuse there is
10:48 <+due> dpeg: For when you get back (hooray, lego!!), Lernaean hydra in a swamp ending, yay or nay? greensnark wants it to be so.
10:48 <+due> dpeg: http://pastebin.ca/1754513 <-- swamp ennding in question
10:48 < AceTetra> "Hey! Fix this for us!" "brb lego"
10:48 <+due> AceTetra: So true.
10:48 < Mu_> i wouldn't place it directly on the rune
10:48 <+due> I <3 lego so much.
10:49 <+due> Mu_: Yeah, at the 4 rather than on the rune.
10:49 < AceTetra> the lego 3d scanner is cool stuff
10:49 <+due> there's a lego 3d scanner?
10:49 < Mu_> even so that corridor is not a nice place for a 27-hydra
10:49 < AceTetra> yes. also a lego automatic transmission
10:49 < Mu_> since you'll probably be standing in shallow
10:50 <+due> 50/50 chance of shallow, yeah.
10:50 <+due> I don't really like the idea myself, but Lemuuel started a trend of boss monstersin the oriented Swamp endings, and I'd like to continue it.
10:50 <+due> (I did an azure jelly for the ice endingg.)
10:51 < Mu_> put it in the big open area then ;p
10:51 <+due> I could put it in that little nook in the bottom left hand corner... 
10:51 <+due> Eh, it all depends on the ploog.
10:57 <+sorear> needs more moths
11:02 <+due> Hm.
11:03 <+due> Reducing the general weight of the dummy for Swamp means an increased number of labs.
11:03 <+due> Bah.
11:03 <+due> I think we should disable shafts in swamp.
11:08 < AceTetra> can you also disable shafts above D:8?
11:09 <+due> Well, known shaft generation isn't enough.
11:09 <+due> Numbers need to be fudged up again.
11:09 < AceTetra> i got totally shafted by one that took me from D:6 to D:8 and i was like xl10 at temple
11:09 < CIA-81> greensnark * r2d9a94641ded /crawl-ref/source/dgn-swamp.cc: Set build method and layout type for swamp builder.
11:09 < CIA-81> greensnark * r0ef3a565b7f1 /crawl-ref/source/scripts/place-population.lua: Update place-population to report xp stats as well as monster numbers (due).
11:10 <+due> Gretell: <3
11:10 <+due> ...
11:10 <+due> greensnark: <3
11:10 < AceTetra> i think it might be a good idea for shafts to start appearing after the last temple level
11:10 <+greensnark> ./crawl -script place-pop Swamp:5
11:10 <+greensnark> Will report monster stats for Swamp;5
11:10 <+due> Excellent.
11:11 <+greensnark> Report will be in monster-report.out
11:11 <+due> AceTetra: Shafts are fine how  they are, they just generate unknown too often.
11:11 <+due> greensnark: Turning down th edummy and disabling the vaults that don't fit in with swamp means more labs.
11:12 <+due> greensnark: I turned the five pool vaults up to 500 each, with one of them at 1000 weight.
11:12 <+greensnark> Labs have an absolute chance
11:12 <+greensnark> They shouldn't be affected by twiddling the dummies
11:12 <+due> Oh, god
11:12 <+due> Er, good.
11:12 <+greensnark> Depends on their priority, have to check
11:12 <+greensnark> Yeah, lab priority is 50, they won't be affected by changing dummies
11:12 <+due> I'm going through disabling vaults that don't work in Lair.
11:14 < AceTetra> what's "generate unknown"?
11:14 <+due> Shaft traps have a percentage chance of being placed, and then marked as preknown.
11:15 < AceTetra> oh, so you can run for them. i like that idea
11:15 <+due> timecircuits's patch increased shaft generation considerably, to compensate for removal of down escape hatches, but didn't quite increase the rate of known shaft traps.
11:15 < AceTetra> "removal of down escape hatches"? i gotta keep up with this stuff better
11:16 < AceTetra> that sounds like a big change
11:17 <+due> They're being replaced by shafts.
11:18 <+due> Bah, how do I reset what I've already git add'd?
11:19 < AceTetra> hey, since it's kinda idle now, i was wondering how i should solve this: when i autotravel to a level that i haven't yet visited by accident, it gets there before i'm ready for a new level, so i might miss a labyrinth. to prevent this, i made travel stop on all staircases down. is there a better way?
11:19 <+due> Don't auto-travel to levels you haven't visited before?
11:19 < AceTetra> due: i don't know how that's possible
11:20 < AceTetra> it doesn't warn you if you travel to somewhere you haven't been to
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11:20 <@dpeg> due: map looks good. Nor sure on the Lernaean hydra. You decide :)
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11:22 <+due> dpeg: Okay, I'll put it in the lower corner, away from the rune. ;)
11:23 <+due> dpeg: Oh, and Greensnark asked me to turn up hydras in the swamp_alternative map, make 1=11., instead of 1=1..
11:23 <+due> (Last full stop was the end of the sentence, whoops.)
11:23 <@dpeg> due: the hydra has a special colour?
11:24 <+due> Yes!
11:25 <+due> @??the lernaean hydra
11:25 < Gretell> the Lernaean hydra (D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(120), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 7599.
11:25 < cbus> dpeg, goclub on wednesday :D
11:25 < cbus> dpeg, goclub on wednesday :D
11:25 < cbus> SDK before summer!
11:25 < AceTetra> why are the level map colors used for the unseen parts of the viewport
11:26 <+due> That's always been the case?
11:26 < AceTetra> yeah, i was thinking they should be separate, but i don't know how to accomplish that at all
11:27 < AceTetra> currently i have that colour map option set to off, but it darkens stairs as well as everything else, so it's slightly annoying
11:27 <+due> Oooh, it bit me.
11:28 <+due> Okay! Time to commit Mr Lernaean Hydra!
11:28 < AceTetra> would it require a new option name to set those separately?
11:34 <@dpeg> cbus: good! :)
11:34 <@dpeg> I am moving in 30 minutes, so very little time.
11:34 <+due> Napkin, Napkin, Napkin!
11:34 <+due> dpeg: Moving again? :o
11:34 <@dpeg> greensnark: no hope for trees in shallow water?
11:35 <@dpeg> due: moving with furniture into my flat.
11:35 <+due> Oh :)
11:36 <+due> dpeg: Trees in swamp destroy into shallow water, btw.
11:36 < CIA-81> due * r7443446f38c5 /crawl-ref/source/dat/ (float.des mini.des): Disable some mini/float vaults that don't work with new Swamp.
11:36 < CIA-81> due * ra13d622c1de5 /crawl-ref/source/dat/dummy.des: Split the Swamp balancer out into it's own.
11:36 < CIA-81> due * r39aa226164df /crawl-ref/source/dat/swamp.des: Swamp pools, Swamp entry vault.
11:36 < CIA-81> due * r52641bf576bf /crawl-ref/source/dat/swamp.des: New Swamp ending: "old school" Swamp, Lernaean hydra.
11:36 < CIA-81> due * rf57c75887a57 /crawl-ref/source/dat/swamp.des: Increase number of hydrae/swamp dragons in swamp_alternative (greensnark).
11:37 <@dpeg> due: yes, I saw that. But wouldn't a "tree in shallow water" (completely new dungeon feature) allow for cool stuff?
11:37 < CIA-81> greensnark * r8a6746ad0a33 /crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: Fix swamp drakes not getting effective meph cloud in Swamp.
11:38 <+greensnark> dpeg: Composing features is problematic :)
11:38 <+greensnark> That kind of thing is better handled with monsters, like the plant monster
11:38 <+greensnark> That's the main reason I used plants in Shoals
11:39 <+greensnark> We could just change the description for trees in Swamp
11:39 <+greensnark> But it'd still need special treatment from the tiles code
11:42 < CIA-81> greensnark * r550bd520c116 /crawl-ref/source/scripts/place-population.lua: Don't include the cumulative monster count when calculating pop totals.
11:42 <+due> greensnark: Not difficult.
11:43 <+due> greensnark: Just do a branch check and return a different tile for Swamp.
11:43 <+greensnark> :P
11:43 <+due> It's not at all difficult.
11:43 <+greensnark> I'll leave that to the tileheads :)
11:43 <+due> Can we call them mangroves? :D
11:43 <+greensnark> Why not
11:43 <+greensnark> Gunpowder mangroves :P
11:43 <+greensnark> I ... went a little overboard with the steam from burning them :P
11:43 <+due> I <3 mangroves.
11:44 <+due> greensnark: Do you want to tone it down before I update CDO?
11:44 <+greensnark> No :P
11:44 <+due> Haha. Okay.
11:44 <+greensnark> Try it :P
11:44 <+due> Can we turn up cloud generation in swamp?
11:44 <+greensnark> Have to increase cloud limit if you do
11:45 <+due> They're only short lived, though.
11:45 <+due> Though you're right, it is quite high.
11:45 <+due> I probably just never noticed before with the clutter.
11:45 <+due> Hm, fire isn't sprading to other clouds.
11:45 <+due> Ah, steam is good.
11:45 <+due> No, that's great.
11:46 <+due> greensnark: We could also limit cloud generation to areas in LOS.
11:47 <+due> Might turn giant leeches up a bit.
11:47 <+greensnark> So there's an ice statue-in-smoke vault? :P
11:48 <+due> Only ever saw one O_o
11:48 <@dpeg> greensnark: this is why I suggest a genuinely new feature instead of a compound
11:48 <+greensnark> dpeg: Adding a new feature makes a lot of work and disturbs a lot of code, better to repurpose the existing tree feature
11:49 <+greensnark> Much as Pan just relabels rock walls
11:49 <+due> It is an annoyingly large amount of work :/
11:49 < Mu_> polystyrus has a wizlab
11:49 <+due> Is anyone interesting in my termcast?
11:50 <+due> Cigotuvi's Fleshworks!
11:50 < AceTetra> watching
11:51 < AceTetra> what's with all the 7s?
11:51 <+due> Nothing?
11:51 <+due> They're trees.
11:51 <@dpeg> greensnark: ok!
11:51 < AceTetra> oh, why are they 7?
11:51 <+due> ... Because they are?
11:52 < Mu_> whoa, renamed shit doesn't stack up any more?
11:52 < AceTetra> yes, but, uh
11:52 <+due> Mu_: It never has.
11:52 <+due> Mu_: Oh, wait, it does.
11:52 < Mu_> ??
11:52 < Henzell> [1/2900]: 
11:52 <+due> Mu_: I misunderstood you.
11:52 < Mu_> he just had two renamed orcs in the list
11:52 < AceTetra> Henzell: you're awesome
11:52 <+due> Hm.
11:54 < Mu_> add generate_awake tot he prisoners :o
11:54 <@dpeg> Mu_: you can do it :)
11:55 <+due> Mu_: I'm thinking of buffing Cigotuvi's monster again and making the uglie sin the loot chamber very uglies.
11:56 < Mu_> my line ends break everything :p
11:56 < Mu_> ok
11:57 <@dpeg> Mu_: switch to a sane OS
11:57 <+greensnark> Hey, you blamed the Lernaean hydra on me
11:57 <+due> greensnark: Of course I did. :D
11:57 <+greensnark> But! You added it :D
11:57 <+due> I didd!
11:57 <+due> I'm waiting for c-r-d-esque backlash.
11:58 <+due> Maybe make more of the uglies very uglies, too.
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11:58 <+greensnark> <b0rsuk> Lernaean hydra is stupid, no hydra can supply blood for 27 heads, should call it the Fainting hydra.
11:58 <+due> HAHAH. Where was that?
11:58 <+greensnark> Oh, he didn't actually say that :P
11:58 <+due> Oh.
11:58 <+greensnark> I was just channeling him :P
11:58 <+due> Wow, that was so b0rsukish I am amazed.
11:59 < AceTetra> shame i'm new enough to not understand at all
12:00 <+due> Yup, buff Cigotuvi's Monster.
12:00 < Mu_> why does cig's monster look white in the monster list
12:00 < AceTetra> there was a whole OOTS strip about hydrae with more than 20 heads fainting too
12:00 <+due> I don't know, I was wondering that myself.
12:00 <+due> Or maybe not.
12:00 <+due> Heehehe, almost died!
12:00 <+greensnark> Actual b0rsuk: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.development/msg/b06f26df836c260f
12:01 <+greensnark> Item weights are not correctly aligned
12:01 <+due> It's the stuff like "to whooever implemented it, please die" that makes me laugh.
12:02 <+due> greensnark: Where?
12:02 <@dpeg> hey, borsuk is playing
12:02 <@dpeg> in a Sewer right now
12:02 < AceTetra> huh, i don't know how you can properly parody b0rsuk at all
12:02 <+due> dpeg: We're watching someone in Cigotuvi's Fleshworks!
12:04 < AceTetra> who was talking about a totally modular crawl interface in here?
12:04 < AceTetra> all script-driven and placed anywhere on the screen in whatever format
12:04 <+due> Mu_: Also, need to move the giant eyeball so you don't see it. n78291 went "hm, no way am I going in there" when he saw it.
12:04 < Mu_> ;o
12:05 < Mu_> i think we should make the rMut in that room a randart
12:05 <+due> Hm, interesting idea.
12:05 <+due> Incitementt to mutation!
12:05 < Mu_> owner:cigotuvi   ??
12:05 <+due> Hehehe, no, sorry.
12:05 < Mu_> ;-)
12:06 <@dpeg> due: sounds exciting. No time here :/
12:06 <+due> dpeg: :(
12:06 <+due> Mu_: Agree with the very uglies?
12:06 <@dpeg> AceTetra: this is 100% unrealistic
12:06 < Mu_> sure
12:07 < AceTetra> dpeg: too much effort?
12:07 < Mu_> need that 'ugliest thing' unique to stick in there ;p
12:07 < syllogism> I dont recall seeing any very ugly things last time I played
12:07 <+due> AceTetra: Would require rewriting a lot of stuff.
12:07 <+due> syllogism: In the cigotuvi lab?
12:07 < AceTetra> as i said, i dunno how to do it at all
12:07 < syllogism> no, anywhere
12:07 <+due> Oh, hm.
12:07 <@dpeg> AceTetra: impossible to do for the team, and not worth the effort imo
12:08 <@dpeg> gotta go
12:08 <@dpeg> see you later
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12:08 < AceTetra> i would love to have a 23x23 viewport on a 80x24 screen though
12:08 < AceTetra> mqaybe if i write a patch people will be like "oh ok"
12:10 < AceTetra> what's "impossible to do for the team" mean?
12:11 <+due> We already have targets that we're struggling to meet for 0.6.
12:11 < AceTetra> oh, so that's just about 0.6 goals? i'm an idealist, i can wait
12:19 < syllogism> it looks like with the suggested new heavy armour spellcasting failure formula you'll need considerably more str to make it work but once your str is high enough the penalty is less than it used to be
12:22 < syllogism> str will help considerably more than int until you eliminate the penalty
12:23  * due back.
12:27 < syllogism> it's also possible to get ridiculously high ev in a crystal plate, but I suppose since it requires high str/dex/dodging/armor it may not be an issue
12:31 < syllogism> ""I disagree with the presented AC figures: All AC should be created equal. Someone in a +8 robe should have the same AC as someone in a suit of +0 plate mail with the same armor skill. AC from mutations should also count the same way" are you serious dis_astragant
12:31 <+due> . . .
12:32 <+due> What, AC should be GDR no matter the source?
12:32 <+due> Maybe I misunderstand.
12:33 < syllogism> he isn't even talking about gdr there
12:33 < syllogism> just that you should have the same ac wearing a +8 robe or a +0 plate mail at armour 27
12:33 <+due> They all have different bace AC though.
12:33 < syllogism> or by having thick black scales 3...
12:33 <+due> ??plate mail
12:33 < Henzell> plate mail[1/1]: +10 ac -6 ev. Weighs 65.0 aum.
12:34 <+due> Eh, I don't care to get involved.
12:35 < CIA-81> due * rd50b26f051e8 /crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc: Increase generation of giant leeches in Swamp.
12:41 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2341-gd50b26f (16.0)!
13:26 <+Zaba> trees in swamp is cool
13:27 <+due> Agree
13:29 <+due> looks good, too.
13:29 <+due> What branch ending should I work on next?
13:30 <+due> Snake?
13:30 < hashc> orc :p
13:31 <+due> They don't have Branch ends.
13:31 < st_> I just had a crash upon entering the vaults
13:31 <+due> st_: Ack, how?
13:31 <+due> Hang on a tick
13:32 <+due> Are you logged out and saved?
13:32 < st_> I pressed > and then I was back at the menu
13:32 <+due> Okay, stay out for a sec
13:32 < st_> I'm logged in, but not ingame
13:33 <+due> Got your save, let me see...
13:33 <+due> Hm, seems to have generated okay for me. Let me check your crash file.
13:34 <+due> Nice weapon, btw.
13:34 <+due> I want a butterfly sword :D
13:34 < st_> heh
13:35 <+due> Odd
13:35 <+due> It doesn't look like you actually crashed
13:35 <+due> Try again?
13:35 <+due> Weird.
13:35 < st_> well loading the game again puts me at vault:1, so I dunno
13:35 <+due> Let me know if it happens again, it might have smoething to do with the dungeon builders.
13:35 < st_> alright
13:35 <+due> Did you see any messages flash across the screen?
13:36 < st_> nope
13:36 <+due> Okay, probably not Lua then...
13:36 <+due> I might run some generation tests on it... but that'll wait.
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13:48 <+due> Zaba: around?
13:48 <+Zaba> yeah
13:48 <+due> I'm not sure I like it, but
13:48 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1754640
13:49 <+due> though cleaning up the top area helps
13:49 <+Zaba> interesting
13:49 <+Zaba> but I think it should be more random
13:49 <+due> Well, this is the first pass.
13:50 <+due> I want the general shape, then I'll randomise out the edges.
13:50 <+Zaba> I mean, the layout should allow for more randomness
13:50 <+Zaba> right now, being more random would make it rather ugly, IMO
13:50 <+due> What sort of randomness do you think, then?
13:50 <+Zaba> maybe alternate paths into the central region?
13:51 <+Zaba> with only one actually reaching it, the rest being randomized out into dead ends full of greater nagas.
13:51 <+due> Hm.
13:51 <+due> Well, the snake itself will be packed full of nasties.
13:54 <+due> Zaba: 
13:54 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1754645
13:54 <+due> Mind playing aorund with it a bit?
13:54 <+due> I like the general idea, I'm just not sure if it's workable.
13:54 <+due> And the whole asymmetrical thing is nanoying me.
13:55 <+due> Could be easily fixed though.
13:57 <+due> Goodnight!
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15:44 < Ashenzari> Exclusion autoannotations make goofy plurals (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=455) by OG17
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15:59 < TGW> due: lair should have branch ends
16:03 < blabber> Hi all. I am the maintainer of the FreeBSD port of stonesoup. Steven asked to give the git version a try as 6.0 is approaching.
16:04 < Ashenzari> Frances tile improvement (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=456) by Porkchop
16:05 < blabber> I wonder if it would be ok if I integrate my patches in a way it is controlled by a build flag would there be a chance to get it included in your upstream repository?
16:06 <+greensnark> blabber: Yes, what are the patches?
16:06 < blabber> I have none yet. I will start the porting this evening night. But basically it will be BSD-specific paths and compileroptions.
16:07 <+greensnark> There shouldn't be a problem at all
16:08 <+greensnark> If Steven's working with you, he can merge them upstream, or you can attach them to a ticket on Mantis: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php
16:08 < blabber> if i have a working version (or problems) i will ping you guys in this channel.
16:08 <+greensnark> Yes, definitely
16:09 <+greensnark> Thanks for maintaining the BSD port :)
16:10 < blabber> maintaining the port is in my own interest. I never got farther than D:8 but i love your game :)
16:11 < Napkin> welcome to the club, blabber :)
16:11 <+greensnark> We are joined by the Napking <3
16:12 < Napkin> greensnarking! How's it going? :)
16:12 <+greensnark> Good, good
16:12 < Napkin> excellent!
16:12 < Napkin> <- still alive, btw :D
16:12 <+greensnark> @whereis Napkin
16:12 < Gretell> Napkin the Fencer (L21 HEFE), a worshipper of Vehumet, saved on Orc:3 on 2010-01-17 after 120336 turns.
16:12 <+greensnark> Ooh
16:13 < Napkin> \o/
16:13 <+greensnark> Got Aizul yet? :P
16:13 < Napkin> yes! last thing - and I slept gooooood afterwards ;))
16:13 < Napkin> I'm having a bit of trouble with resistances though
16:13 < Napkin> Will try my luck in the elven halls now
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17:13 < Napkin> repell missiles \o/
17:13 < Napkin> oops, mischan
17:41 < Napkin> a wand of teleportation {fully recharged}
17:41 < Napkin> It can have at most 9 charges.
17:41 < Napkin> why not make it show the charges with (9) now?
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17:49 < blabber> Woohoo... This is a really impressive makefile. But I am glad you did not choose to use automake and friends...
17:50 < Ashenzari> Nessos with bow (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=457) by Porkchop
17:51 < Napkin> mostly thanks to Steven :)
17:54 < syllogism> is the wiki page on spell failure corretct http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=Spell_success ? I can't get ingame results to match
17:54 < syllogism> specifically the final stepdown
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18:08 < blabber> hmmm. i am quite sure dcss depends on sqlite but i don't find this documenzed in INSTALL.TXT.
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18:09 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r6722bf474593 /crawl-ref/source/ (rltiles/dc-corpse.txt tilepick.cc): Use Wayne's tile for the calculation of the dwarf corpse tile.
18:09 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r04b52db46c45 /crawl-ref/source/tilepick.cc: For monster detection, use the human tile for dwarves (Wayne).
18:10 < ortoslon> playtesting post newer than last windows build. not good
18:11 <+Keskitalo> I'm on it
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18:23 < blabber> anybody know the minimum sqlite version used by dcss?
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18:40 < blabber> ah. sqlite3 it is.
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19:19 < blabber> I got stuck with my FreeBSD port of stonesoup 0.6.0. I want the port to use the lua/sqlite/etc libs provided by the FreeBSD ports tree. But the makefile insists on building a fresh one in src/contrib. How can I disable this?
19:19 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r9070ae69f61b /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (UNUSED/monsters/nessos.png dc-mon/unique/nessos.png): Use Porkchop's Nessos tile, tweaked to make the bow flaming.
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19:21 < blabber> I thougt the makefile would skip these if i didn't set BUILD* variables...
19:24 < eith> probly need neunon for that, he wrote the new makefile
19:25 < blabber> i think i got it... there is some magic in the makefile to autodetect the presence of these libs... and the paths are of course not bsd compliant ;)
19:26 < blabber> i slowly make progress...
19:26 < eith> cool :)
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19:40 < Ashenzari> Permanent bazaar description is "UNDESCRIBED PORTAL VAULT ENTRANCE." (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=458) by heteroy
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20:22 < TGW> who wrote the amulet of stasis description?
20:22 < syllogism> greensnark i imagine
20:25 < TGW> "translocular?"
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20:41 < blabber> woa - is perl really a build dependency for dcss now?
20:51 < AceTetra> is there a maximum size for a crawl level?
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20:52 < TGW> 80x70
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20:59 < AceTetra> what if you dig?
21:06 <+Enne> AceTetra: Try it.  :)
21:06 < TGW> 80x70
21:06 < AceTetra> ugh, that sounds like effort, but i'm trying it now
21:07 < TGW> elven walls might be a problem
21:07 < TGW> they're rock, but coloured like stone
21:08 < AceTetra> TGW: i recolored all the walls, so not a problem
21:08 < AceTetra> all of elf looks like stone to me
21:08 < AceTetra> ok, so they really are 80x70
21:09 < AceTetra> why do the walls at the edge not have a description?
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21:12 <@elly> 'envenomancer'? seriously?
21:14 <+sorear> seriously
21:17 < syllogism> made a handy spreadsheet with the new ev/spell failure/ac formulas, demigod gets a nice boost since dex/str will be more useful
21:22 < syllogism> does AEVP get rounded down?
21:26 < CIA-81> pointless_ * ra41a9d625e97 /crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Fix decomposed skeletons getting the wrong speed and HP
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21:35 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r3b7c8a454e22 /crawl-ref/source/dat/lair.des: Nicer coloration of the strawberry vaults.
21:35 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r8ec944303241 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (25 files in 3 dirs): Colour grass tiles a darker and (I feel) more natural colour.
21:35 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r616a366a350e /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (10 files in 2 dirs): Add flowered grass tiles, with appropriate weights.
21:39 < AceTetra> flowered grass? like in zelda:LTTP? that kicks ass
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22:31 < TGW> random direction my ass
22:38 < purge> any devs around?
22:38 < purge> napkin?
22:38 < purge> oh hes not on :|
22:38 < purge> oh yes he is hehe
22:38 < purge> thought he'd be op or +v 
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22:54 < Napkin> what's up, purge?
22:55 < Napkin> not that i'm a dev... but since you asked for me
22:56 < Ashenzari> Dowan didn't notice his sister's death (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=459) by Kyrris
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23:05 < purge> napkin: can i upload a .exe to a tracker item? or zip it? or what?
23:06 < purge> i made a little demo program of my iood tiles in action
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23:10 < Napkin> uuhh.. .exe
23:10 < Napkin> :D
23:10 < Napkin> can't you make a video out of it?
23:10 < purge> well its actually a "game"
23:10 < purge> how?
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23:11 < Napkin> on windows, huh?
23:11 < Napkin> no clue
23:11 < purge> lol
23:11 < Napkin> but, did the tracker complain?
23:11 < purge> i didn't try yet, wanted to make sure its ok
23:12 < Napkin> well, as you can imagine - downloading .exe files isn't something many will do
23:12 < purge> yeah i know :|
23:12 < Napkin> but i'm ok with it - as long as you scanned it
23:14 < Napkin> a buddy of mine just said to use camtasia
23:14 < Napkin> on windows - to make videos
23:15 < Napkin> but on first look - doesn't look too nice either ;)
23:15 <+sorear> a lot of Windows recorder programs make self-playing .exe files
23:15 < eith> camtasia rocks
23:16 < purge> i was hoping for something free :|
23:16 < Napkin> sorear - the idea is not to have an exe
23:16 < Napkin> just a video/demo
23:17 < eith> camstudio is free, but its not half as good
23:18 < eith> why it needs to be free is beyond me though =p
23:18 < Napkin> camtasia has a free version, no?
23:18 < purge> well the trials usually have crappy limitations that make them useless
23:19 < Napkin> true
23:19  * purge is trying camstudio
23:30 < purge> ok that program worked! the video is under 1mb
23:34 < purge> still here napkin?
23:35 < Napkin> yes
23:35 < Napkin> i think upload limit is... 5mb?
23:36 < purge> can you see if you can view that movie file? it seemed to give me a trouble :|
23:36 < purge> i uploaded ithttp://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=449
23:36 < Napkin> sure
23:36 < purge> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=449
23:38 < Napkin> works like a charm in VLC, purge 
23:38 < eith> working fine in windows media player on win7 aswell
23:38 < Napkin> codec: CRAM, 384x256 with frame rate 200
23:38 < Napkin> frame rate of 25~30 should be enough, btw
23:38 < Napkin> in case you do more videos :)
23:39 < purge> ok thanks :)
23:39 < Napkin> thank you :)
23:39 < eith> looks cool, btw, i like the smoke
23:39 < purge> i want jpeg to look at that because she is unsure about how the clouds look
23:39 < Napkin> agreed!
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23:44 < CIA-81> pointless_ * r3f8f37db599b /crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Increase the casting difficulty of Fedhas' rain
23:44 < CIA-81> pointless_ * r87b950701045 /crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Change the cost display for Fedhas evolution
23:44 < CIA-81> pointless_ * r13ba95e8a77f /crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ability.txt: Update the growth and evolution ability descriptions
23:44 < CIA-81> pointless_ * rf903462645b8 /crawl-ref/source/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Allow toadstools on tiles Fedhas worshipers are standing on
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