00:01 <@dpeg> right now, I have exp q:2 / cure mut q:3
00:01 <@dpeg> also, we hand out only one stat
00:01 <@dpeg> which might be not as useful as exp
00:01 <@dpeg> so I will do 8
00:01 <@dpeg> ok?
00:02 <+Keskitalo> That sounds like good loot to me.
00:02 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * rf39d39faaf4c /crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/items.txt: Sort potions alphabetically.
00:02 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, do iiiiittttt.
00:02 <@dpeg> yes, you'd hope that stat+8 was worth it :)
00:04 <@dpeg> compiling, then pushing
00:08 -!- Netsplit kubrick.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Henzell, jld, gunofdis, Vandal|LT, felirx, Iainuki, TGW, cbus, +Keskitalo, Gretell,  (+5 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
00:08 -!- Netsplit kubrick.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Zannick, @rax, mr0t, elly, CIA-81, st_, @dpeg, purge, jarpiain, +greensnark,  (+1 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
00:14 -!- rax_ [n=rax@69.25.196.243] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:15 -!- Netsplit over, joins: @dpeg, Vandal|LT, Zannick, TGW, jld, Vandal, timecircuits, purge, mr0t, cbus (+16 more)
00:15 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r2478df259196 /crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Remove comments about old command/key information on the help screen.
00:15 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r5250c9a05b2f /crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Replace more hardcoded command keys with dynamic ones on the help screen.
00:15 -!- rax [n=rax@autumnfox.akrasiac.org] has quit [Connection reset by peer]
00:15 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r34d0bd0cf80a /crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Remove more of those commented out lines.
00:15 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r1be109f3b530 /crawl-ref/source/command.cc: More dynamic command key listings on the help screen.
00:16 < Ashenzari> Sleep needle and brand tile submission (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=437) by purge
00:17 -!- mr0t [n=mr0t@ppp-70-132-140-16.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Excess Flood]
00:18 -!- Jude [i=jmc@208.185.93.2] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:19 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:19 < Jude> Okay, maybe this will be better.
00:19 < Jude> Argh, maybe not.
00:19 -!- Netsplit kubrick.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: gunofdis
00:19 -!- Jude [i=jmc@208.185.93.2] has quit [Client Quit]
00:21 -!- Jude [i=jmc@208.185.93.2] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:21 -!- dis_astranagant [n=hurf@173.22.128.136] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:21 <+Keskitalo> heya dis
00:21 <+due> hi
00:21 <+due> hi dpeg!
00:21 <+Keskitalo> The dynamic keylist function is looking good. It only handles a part of the keys, but what's there works. :)
00:21 <+Keskitalo> Hi due!
00:21 <+Keskitalo> purge: Hard at work! :)
00:21 < Henzell> due: You have 5 messages. Use !messages to read them.
00:21 <+Keskitalo> due: Do you think the needles should hide their brands until id?
00:21 <+due> dpeg: Are we going to look at closing the SF tracker or at least redirecting them to Mantis?
00:21 <+due> * and | adjust item level and depth.
00:21 <+due> So it's all relative.
00:21 <+due> * is 4 or so levels, | is 6 or so.
00:21 <+due> So it adjusts you.absdepth() + (levels), which is the value that is then used to calculate the random roll for the item being generated.
00:21 <+due> Usually it just increases the chances of a "good item", branded, etc.
00:22 -!- Xiberia [n=deefghdf@81.235.210.141] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:22 -!- Eronarn [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:22 < Jude> argh, this is driving me crazy.
00:22 < Jude> Is every freenode server lagged as hell?
00:22 <+due> Did my messages boout * and | go through?
00:22 <+due> Hideous lag.
00:22 <+due> Keskitalo: No, curare and poisoned don't.
00:22 <+due> So I specifically made the new brands not either.
00:22 -!- due [i=jmc@wikisource/Bookofjude] has quit ["Reconnecting"]
00:22 -!- mrawt [n=mr0t@70.132.140.16] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:23 < Jude> 77 seconds of lake is not natural.
00:24 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@85-131-28-198.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:24 -!- paxed [n=paxed@andesiitti.telemail.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:24 < syllogism> abyss has pan gates now? 
00:24 -!- Netsplit kubrick.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: paxed, syllogism
00:25 < Jude> lag, not lake.
00:25 < Napkin> moin due :)
00:26 < Napkin> yes, kornbluth is lagging too since this.. or yesterday morning :)
00:26 < Jude> ... wow.
00:26 < Jude> I just got a burst of conversation.
00:26 -!- Jude is now known as due
00:29 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v due] by ChanServ
00:29 < Napkin> but 77 is harsh - no doubt
00:29 < elly> it's netsplit time
00:29 < Zannick> yeah, freenode is not very happy right now
00:29 -!- by [n=rob@g225126178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["sleep"]
00:30 <+due> I haven't been able to find a single server where I don't get hideous lag.
00:30 <+due> Is it just me, or is it everyone else?
00:30 < elly> that's because they are all busy
00:30 < elly> uh, I have zero lag right now, but it all dropped away just a moment ago
00:30 <+due> Yeah, same here.
00:30 <+due> Services are laggy too.
00:30 < elly> hell yeah
00:30 <+due> purge: Liking the mushrooms!
00:30 < elly> they're busy reauthing like a billion noobs :P
00:30 <@dpeg> due: no, tell me again about good_item, please.
00:30 <+Keskitalo> That's hilariously slow.
00:30 <@dpeg> due: I am not aware of anyone moving SF content to Mantis/wiki right now :/
00:31 <+Keskitalo> wb, Jude :)
00:31 <+Keskitalo> argh
00:31 <+Keskitalo> Jude: It's freenode that's lagging.
00:31 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@166.205.137.26] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:32 <+Keskitalo> Lake of lag.
00:32 <@dpeg> Is it still an attack?
00:32 <+due> dpeg: But new stuff is still being added to the SF tracker, which makes it worse, no?
00:32 <+due> dpeg: It picks a random value between x and y; between these values for regular items, say, it might assign a missile brand or something.
00:32 <+due> so it's like x = random2(300 + (if good_item + 0 else + 4000))
00:32 <+due> and the "normal"/non-good part is between 300 and 4000.
00:32 <+due> 96 seconds now.
00:32 <@dpeg> due: that is too complicated :)
00:34 <@dpeg> I just need to know whether I should use * or | instead of good_item in the bailey.
00:34 <+due> dpeg: I know :)
00:34 <+due> dpeg: For non-good_item items, it takes into consideration depth.
00:34 -!- B0RG1N_ [n=brgn@69.7.115.117] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:34 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@166.205.137.26] has quit [Client Quit]
00:34 <+Keskitalo> Jude: Henzell told you you have 5 messages 7 minutes after you quit.
00:34 <+due> good_item will force it to pick what can be termed a "good item".
00:34 <+due> * and | merely adjust the depth up so your chances of a good item are increased, but are not guaranteed.
00:34 <@dpeg> due: I don't know what to do.
00:34 <+due> Hopefully that''s all gone through and makes sense.
00:35 <+due> Use * and |, yes, for bailey, if the loot is too high.
00:35 -!- B0RG1N_ is now known as B0RG1N
00:35 <+Keskitalo> Anyway, I should be able to work on the tracker move late next week. I think mantis and wiki are pretty good as they are, and what is needed is a bit of preparing howtos, communicating the move and shutting down SF trackers.
00:35 <+Keskitalo> I don't know how things operate and can be operated on the SF side. I hope it's possible to post big flashing red signs with the new address.
00:35 <+due> Haha, yes.
00:37 <+doy> pan gates in the abyss is kinda meh, in my opinion
00:37 <@dpeg> due: no, loot is rather too little. A number of baileys give out six "good" items, which I will therefore leave at that.
00:37 <+due> Okay
00:37 <+due> Keskitalo: Yes, I was waiting for that.
00:37 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@69.7.115.117] has quit [Client Quit]
00:37 <+due> !lm * noun=~cigotuvi -tv
00:37 <@dpeg> doy: they're only there for flavour, no idea who did that
00:37 <+due> sorear added them, I believe.
00:37 <+doy> dpeg: i don't like the flavor though
00:38 <+doy> abyss and pan are similar enough as it is
00:38 <+doy> i really don't like things keep making them more related
00:38 <+due> I think it's nasty.
00:38 <@dpeg> doy: could you look when it was added?
00:38 < Henzell> No milestones for * (noun=~cigotuvi).
00:39 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@166.205.137.26] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:39 <@dpeg> !tell sorear Jesse is unhappy with Pan portals in the Abyss. Did you add them and if so, do you remember why?
00:39 <+doy> dpeg: it was kilobyte, not sorear
00:39 <@dpeg> is Henzell dead?
00:39 <+due> dpeg: Just very slow.
00:39 <+doy> added at the same time that empty stone arches were, which i do like
00:39 < elly> dpeg: the network is experiencing gigantic amounts of lag right now
00:40 <+doy> commit 12bb914
00:40 <+due> Hah, I had literally just gone to Kyrris's vi-keys page to go rargh.
00:40 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o elly] by ChanServ
00:40 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let sorear know.
00:40 <+due> !lm * br.enter=~cigotuvi
00:40 < Henzell> No milestones for * (br.enter=~cigotuvi).
00:40 <+due> !lm * br.enter=wizlab
00:40 < Henzell> 11. [2010-01-15] 78291 the Eclecticist (L22 DERe) entered Cigotuvi's Fleshworks on turn 83685. (WizLab)
00:40 <+due> Feh, finally.
00:40 <+due> !lm * br.enter=wizlab s=non
00:40 < Henzell> Bad arg 's=non' - cannot summarise by non
00:41 <+doy> anyway, i'm off for a few hours, but someone should redirect that !tell at kilobyte
00:41 <+due> !lm * br.enter=wizlab s=noun
00:41 < Henzell> 11 milestones for * (br.enter=wizlab): 11x WizLab
00:41 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@166.205.137.26] has quit [Client Quit]
00:41 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-163-106.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:42 <@dpeg> !tell sorear Sorry, you didn't do it, Adam did. I apologise.
00:42 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let sorear know.
00:42 <@dpeg> !tell kilobyte Jesse is unhappy with Pan portals in the Abyss. Did you add them and if so, do you remember why?
00:42 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
00:43 <+due> I'm off to watch me some Wizlabs, back later.
00:44 < CIA-81> due wizlab * r22843389ceae /crawl-ref/ (126 files in 15 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into wizlab
00:44 < CIA-81> due vaults * rd64c02fb1c51 /crawl-ref/ (31 files in 9 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into vaults
00:46 <+due> WizLabs are on TV if anyone cares to watch.
00:47 <@dpeg> I do!
00:47 <+due> It's not showing enough of them. :(
00:47 <+Keskitalo> <3 tv
00:48 <+due> I'm going to download the ttyrecs to watch later.
00:48 -!- Netsplit kubrick.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Xiberia, Eronarn
00:48 <+Keskitalo> due: Were there any splats? :)
00:48 <+due> Dunno yet.
00:48 <+due> !lg * place=~wizlab
00:48 <+Keskitalo> These are like teasers. :D
00:49 < Henzell> No games for * (place=~wizlab).
00:49 <+due> Too much of the going to, not enough of the being inside.
00:49 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r91c7e6597949 /crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 4 dirs): Add tiles for bush and sleeping brand, both courtesy of purge. Thanks!
00:50 <+due> I should make mapping not work in portal vaults.
00:50 <+due> It is very cheap.
00:51 <+Keskitalo> The green centaurs are so cute.
00:51 <@dpeg> due: encourages players to look at the source though.
00:52 <+due> True.
00:52 <+due> the portal sesmt o look good so far.
00:52 <+due> I need to adjust descrpitionns etc on the entrances.
00:53 <+due> Cloud mage :D
00:54 <+Keskitalo> Sounds good to me. A level-wide flag?
00:54 <+due> Hm, too many in it.
00:54 <+due> In the entrance, at least.
00:54 <+due> I'll have to download these.
00:55 <@dpeg> alternative: layout is pre-mapped
00:55 <+due> dpeg: That's pssible, too.
00:55 <@dpeg> or the outer border could be
00:55 <@dpeg> okay, I am off
00:55 <@dpeg> sorry for flaking on the bayou, I don't even get to do the wiki stuff :/
00:55 <@dpeg> but you  will get the map -- I have these ideas
00:56 <+due> dpeg: It's fnie
00:56 <+due> We have time
00:58 <+due> did you see my Iskenderun map?
00:58 <@dpeg> no :(
00:58 <@dpeg> and we also have time with 0.6, but I am afraid that the focus may get lost
00:58 <@dpeg> started so much stuff, as usual, and now I am running after folks
00:58 <+due> heh, yeah.
00:58 <+due> well, w'eve still accomplished lots
00:58 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-168-164.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
00:59 <+Keskitalo> Gotta head off to bed now.. cheers!
00:59 -!- bmh [n=brendan@209-6-234-82.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:59 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Xiberia, Eronarn
00:59 < bmh> I'll never understand why I'm better at crawl when I'm ironmanning than when I'm playing normally.
00:59 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-174-105.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:59 <@dpeg> not you, Jude -- I am only running after the troves, which aren't 100% crucial
00:59 <@dpeg> At least Haran did read the 0.6 mail and took up the targeting, that's good.
00:59 <+due> ranged combat overhaul is done, and I think I've fixed the last of the ugs
00:59 <+due> Too many monks.
00:59 <@elly> angband seems to basically never make changes of the magnitude you guys are attempting
00:59 <@dpeg> due: yes, this is why you're not a problem, but part of the solution
00:59 <@dpeg> bmh: focus!
00:59 <+due> :D
00:59 <@dpeg> I don't know if we should abandon DS, for example
00:59 < bmh> DS?
00:59 <@dpeg> demonspawn
01:00 <+due> What needs to be done?
01:02 <+due> coding up the new mutations?
01:02 <@dpeg> yes, but there's more
01:02 <@dpeg> and Stefan has (had?) a plan
01:02 <@dpeg> !seen henryci
01:02 <+due> ... hahahahah
01:02 < Henzell> I last saw henryci at Thu Jan 14 10:30:54 2010 UTC (1d 13h 31m 14s ago) quitting with message Read error: 113 (No route to host).
01:02 <+due> Someoone's now complaining that there's too little info on the target screen, this is amusing to me :)
01:02 < bmh> Do we have a list of races most popular to least popular, normalized by favored class?
01:02 <+due> bmh: No, but ##crawl would be the place to ask for that, someone was doing statistics a whileback.
01:03 < bmh> I'm just curious about dpeg's comment about Demonspawn
01:03 < bmh> By abandon you mean "abandon overhauling" not "drop the race"
01:03 <+due> Yeah.
01:04 < MarvinPA> ooh
01:04 < MarvinPA> @play is doing a column on crawl
01:04 <+due> dpeg: I'm going to try and finish troves today, and then I'll have another look at the 0.6 mail and see if there's anything I can pick up.
01:06 <@dpeg> due: thank you so much
01:07 <+due> dpeg: Did you see my unique roundup on the CDO blog?
01:07 <@dpeg> bmh: yes, postpone DS overhaul to 0.7
01:07 <@dpeg> due: yes, all the blog entries are awesome
01:07 <+due> dpeg: Leave them as-is now?
01:07 <@dpeg> due: I am not saying that. If sorear comes back, they can go in.
01:07 <@dpeg> But I wouldn't want to delay 0.6 for them.
01:07 <@dpeg> The AC bit, OTOH.... sigh
01:08 <+due> Ok
01:08 <+due> Wha'ts the AC overhalu?
01:08 <+due> Er, the current state of it?
01:08 <+due> Is henryci working on it?
01:08 <@dpeg> no, henryci is only doing Ctrl-O
01:09 <@dpeg> but I am afraid he is flaking out
01:09 <+due> Ah
01:09 -!- hashc [n=hash@adsl-68-76-123-64.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
01:09 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-163-106.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
01:09 <@dpeg> for AC, we really need Samuel's input
01:09 -!- paxed [n=paxed@andesiitti.telemail.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
01:09 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@85-131-28-198.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
01:09 <+due> Yeah, I'm currently flaking on troves because I can't think of a simple way to do the interface to the stash tracker.
01:09 <@dpeg> he promised to add it to the wiki, but didn't deliver yet
01:09 <+due> But I've been thinkig about it a lot and different ways to do it.
01:09 <+due> So not actually flaking out, just trying to get it right the first time :)
01:09 <@dpeg> due: we can also choose a different solution
01:10 <+due> I think AC nerf is essential, sigh.
01:10 <@dpeg> yes
01:11 <@dpeg> I was speaking of a different solution re: troves
01:13 <+due> Oh, yes
01:13 <+due> No, troves are fine
01:13 <@dpeg> ok
01:13 <+due> I'm just trying to decied how I deal with the items properly.
01:13 <+due> I think I need to not postpone the inevitable, and write a dlua items wrapper that isn't kneecapped by player knowledge.
01:15 -!- Netsplit kubrick.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: paxed, syllogism
01:19 -!- Netsplit over, joins: paxed, syllogism
01:19 < Eronarn> dpeg: it's my understanding there is a fair amount of time until 0.6
01:20 < Eronarn> the DS stuff is not that far off
01:22 < TGW> I thought 0.6 was supposed to be around the end of this month
01:22 < TGW> in december
01:23 <@dpeg> TGW: who said that? :)
01:23 < TGW> dpeg: you're not going to make me dig up a quote, are you?
01:23 < Eronarn> TGW: no it's like, spring
01:24 < TGW> 13:36 <@dpeg> I would not mind disabling Okawaru for 0.6.
01:24 < TGW> if I could put ":|" in a huge font I would
01:24 < Napkin> most viewed article: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=189
01:24 < Eronarn> TGW: 
01:24 <@dpeg> TGW: try it!
01:25 < Eronarn> o |
01:25 < Eronarn>   |
01:25 < Eronarn> o  |
01:25 < Eronarn> oh god my face
01:25 < Napkin> most viewed bug: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=341 (Combined Slime Creatures have too much damage potential)
01:25 < Napkin> most viewed wiki page: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:amulets
01:25 < Eronarn> ...huh
01:25 < Eronarn> wouldn't have expected that
01:25 < TGW> amulets? huh
01:26 < Napkin> 182 views - followed by http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:desert with 179 ;)
01:27 < TGW> 1learn add dpeg 22:07 < Eronarn> no problem, it is already 2010 on the wiki so i thought i would get started on my resolution to be more productive 22:07 <@dpeg> :) 22:07 <@dpeg> 11 pm at your place?
01:28 <@dpeg> TGW: and so?
01:28 < TGW> I may have interpreted that differently
01:28 < TGW> oh I see what you mean
01:29 < TGW> @january: can't find it
01:31 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
01:31 <+due> doy: Around?
01:33 < TGW> !seen doy
01:33 < Henzell> I last saw doy at Fri Jan 15 23:41:01 2010 UTC (52m 22s ago) saying anyway, im off for a few hours, but someone should redirect that !tell at kilobyte on ##crawl-dev.
01:33 <+due> ah
01:33 < TGW> ayup
01:34 <+due> Okay, what's a major change recently since the last play testing post that I could highlight?
01:35 <+due> MarvinPA-2: Link to the @Play column/
01:35 < MarvinPA-2> http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2010/01/column_play_crawlapalooza_part.php
01:35 <+due> Thanks!
01:35 <+due> Oh man!
01:36 <+due> That's awesome.
01:36 < MarvinPA-2> yeah! :)
01:36 < TGW> due: amulets?
01:36 < MarvinPA-2> looks like there's going to be a few articles on crawl
01:36 <+due> Okay, amulets it is.
01:36 < TGW> also turtles!
01:36 <+due> I'll leave "Down and out with the dungeon builders" for later. :)
01:36 <+due> Ooh, turtles!
01:36 <+due> Okay, turtles and amulets.
01:36 < TGW> new lair?
01:37 <+due> Yeah, but there might be new vaults as well, so we'll leave it for now.
01:38 < TGW> are tides new?
01:39 < TGW> I don't recall when the last one was
01:39 <+due> Yes, but they were discussed in the Shoals post.
01:39 < TGW> ok
01:39 <+due> (Excellently by Greensnark)
01:42 -!- hashc [n=hash@adsl-68-76-123-64.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
01:44 <+due> This DCSS post is quite good.
01:45 <+sorear> !mess
01:45 <+sorear> !messages
01:45 < Henzell> (1/2) dpeg said (1h 5m 23s ago): Jesse is unhappy with Pan portals in the Abyss. Did you add them and if so, do you remember why?
01:45 <+sorear> !messages
01:45 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (1h 2m 48s ago): Sorry, you didn't do it, Adam did. I apologise.
01:45 <+due> My mistake there, I gave bad information, sorry.
01:47 < Ashenzari> Drawing the Dance card causes crash (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=438) by minmay
01:48 < TGW> I just noticed "dance card"
01:48 < TGW> haha
01:50 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
01:50 <+due> I'm going to have to start making play testing posts bi-weekly.
01:53 < syllogism> so is it just pan portals in abyss if I enter from pan?
01:53 < syllogism> that's terrible if true
01:55 < syllogism> I may have missed the answer due to netsplits
01:55 <+due> It definitely should not be
01:57 < syllogism> found a real exit
01:57 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
01:57 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA
01:58  * sorear wonders how big the backlash will be when the recursive portal bug is finally fixed
01:59 <+due> I think it shouldn't be fixed for entering from pan.
02:00 <+due> Or at least, Pan should provide better escape mechanisms.
02:00 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * re398d71d3e5f /crawl-ref/source/ (cmd-name.h enum.h macro.cc main.cc): Add pseudocommand CMD_NO_CMD_DEFAULT for overriding the vi keys.
02:00 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r2fb97f846083 /crawl-ref/settings/no_vi_command_keys.txt: Add a keybindings document for overriding the vi keys.
02:00 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r11cb8e403072 /crawl-ref/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Document how to override (vi) keys with CMD_NO_CMD_DEFAULT.
02:02 <+due> Excelent, jpeg!
02:03 <+due> jpeg's ability to fill an FR despite it being termed in screaming "rargh" rage is awesmoe.
02:03 < TGW> I propose we submit all FRs in hostile terms to better appreciate jpeg
02:04 <+due> I'll make Napkin ban you.
02:04 <+due> s/make Napkin/ask Napkin to/
02:11 < bmh> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=428 I'm supportive of this and Kyrris's suggestion
02:12 <+due> I'm not.
02:12 <+due> He doesn't mind rods and wands and crystal balls.
02:12 <+due> If we make him not mind the tome of destruction, then he really should hate rods and wnads and crystal balls as well.
02:12 < Eronarn> i'd be ok with that
02:13 <+due> I'm not.
02:13 <+due> I mean, thematically, sure.
02:13 < TGW> well, tome of destruction is more bookish
02:13 <+due> We'd be better just to get rid of tome of destruction and make something more interesting.
02:14 < TGW> it's not a spellbook, but I don't think it's--yeah
02:14 < TGW> does anyone use tome?
02:14 < bmh> I'm too afraid to use it
02:15 <+due> Yeah, it's one of those boring miscellaneous artefacts nobody uses.
02:15 < Eronarn> TGW: no
02:15 <+due> It's not going to change for 0.6, though, I think.
02:15 < Eronarn> we could probably axe all misc items and not face much repercussions
02:15 < TGW> well yeah but we shouldn't
02:15 < ogaz> maybe make Tome a misc item?
02:15 <+due> Tome is a misc item?
02:15 < bmh> Gauzy Fan, Blazing Lamp, Nondescript Stone
02:15 < bmh> I've never used them
02:15 < TGW> due: it's sorted as a book
02:15 <+due> Hm.
02:15 < TGW> which is kind of silly
02:16 <+due> Anyway, it should move to the wiki and get discussd for 0.7.
02:18 <+kilobyte> the Tome has a much better damage-to-weight ratio than wands
02:18 <+kilobyte> very useful if you want, for example, be able to do the Hellion Island as a hitter
02:19 < TGW> people do hellion island?
02:20 <+due> Oh, need to look at overflow temples in a post at some point in time
02:20 <+due> "Honey, where's the altar again?"
02:20 < ogaz> I want to come to pan with fire/ice storm one of these days purely to slaughter hellion island
02:20 <+due> No, no, "Honey, I Shrunk the Temple!"
02:20 <@dpeg> Eronarn: decks of cards
02:20 <+kilobyte> TGW: the hellions are contained behind lava
02:21 <@dpeg> kilobyte: okay, but the Tome could also be another *thing*, needn't be a book-alike
02:21 <+kilobyte> ogaz: I did it with a mere spriggan (vs hellfire) with airstrike
02:21 < TGW> ??tome of destruction
02:21 < Henzell> tome of destruction[1/1]: Casts random conjurations when read. Power depends on evocation skill. Also explodes on occasion. You might also (un)luckily get a random freezing/poisonous cloud, or a hostile small abomination. The page's writing has no bearing on the spell produced.
02:21 <+kilobyte> of course
02:21 <+kilobyte> and its current use is tedious, with that dumb question every time you try to use it
02:21 <+due> dpeg: "Box of Destruction"--you open it and stuff comes out?
02:22 < bmh> due: sounds like Pandora's Box
02:22 <+due> Ooh, I like that.
02:22 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes, we will address misc items altogether at some point
02:22 <+due> But thematically unworkable, considering that was actually supposed to be a jar.
02:22 <@dpeg> don't think it's really urgent, though
02:22 <+due> Anyway, like I said, not an 0.6 target.
02:23 < TGW> roguelikes must be historically accurate
02:23 <+due> TGW: Unless they're deliberately not being accurate.
02:24 < Eronarn> dpeg: we could definitely get rid of floor cards too and probably have most people not notice
02:24 < bmh> TGW: Damn straight. That's why Crawl doesn't have gnomes, they all died out in the Fourth Dwarf War
02:24 < TGW> ??floor card
02:24 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled floor_card in my learndb.
02:24 < TGW> learndb wouldn't notice
02:24 < TGW> oh I see what you mean
02:25 < TGW> nah, I've ubered characters by drawing from floor changes
02:25 <+due> !tell by Yes, trog_book is always unreliable, I have no idea why. Nothing I could do seemed to fix it. However, I actually left the possibility of throwing an item on top of it. I'm not sure if this is desirable, though.
02:25 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let by know.
02:25 <@dpeg> Eronarn: yes, but we *have* decks and the Evoc skill, and removing all misc items (bar Nemelex decks) would hamper that a lot.
02:25 <+due> dpeg: Thoughts on the trog's book "bursts into flame" vault? Previously, you could throw something on top of the book to prevent it being destroyed.
02:25 <+due> This is somewhat spoiler-ish.
02:25 <+due> But then, you could also apport.
02:25 <@dpeg> due: awful!
02:25 < TGW> at trog_book: make a glass wall
02:25 <@dpeg> apport is okay
02:25 <+due> Okay.
02:25 <@dpeg> not spoilerish
02:25 < TGW> so it blows itself up whatever you do
02:25 < Eronarn> dpeg: not actually proposing that we do this, just pointing out how boring misc items are currently :P
02:25 <+due> TGW: no
02:26 < TGW> since you don't have los until it's dead ok
02:26 <+due> I should start linking to the commits. Eh, one day.
02:26 <+kilobyte> the problem with apport is that autoexplore won't stop when you see just the book and not the altar, it will try to autopickup it instead
02:27 <+due> kilobyte: Hence the statue, which doesn't seem to work.
02:27 < TGW> and yeah, I have a force_more on trog's altars for that vault
02:27 <@dpeg> Eronarn: I know this, which is why I've been pushing the Disposable Items FR *and* moved it to CDO already.
02:27 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes
02:28 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r3c9a8035199b /crawl-ref/source/it_use3.cc: Don't ask confirmation when using an identified Tome of Destruction.
02:28 < Eronarn> yes, am eager to see what comes out of it
02:28 <@dpeg> due: we could also change the Trog altar layout such that it's almost impossible to see the book without the altar.
02:28 <@dpeg> kilobyte: that's good, thanks
02:28 <+due> dpeg: won't help, the actual burning has weird timing.
02:28 <@dpeg> due: :(
02:28 <+due> That I've *never* been able to fix
02:28 <+due> Sometimes it burns first turn you see it, sometimes it skips a turn.
02:28 -!- rax_ is now known as rax
02:28 <+due> Rob apears to have had the same problems.
02:28 < TGW> doesn't it only burn when you see the altar?
02:28 <+due> 'lo, rax.
02:29 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o rax] by ChanServ
02:29 <@rax> Yo.
02:29 <+due> TGW: Yes, but sometimes no until the turn *after* you see the altar.
02:29 < TGW> what's wrong with the transparent wall?
02:31 <+due> nothing?
02:32 <@dpeg> The Crawl @play is really good. A bit too glowing imo, but he may not be aware of all the shortcominga.
02:32 <+due> dpeg: Agree
02:33 <+due> I'm debating commenting,but I dunno if that seems to peurile?
02:33 <@dpeg> nah, I don't think so
02:33 < TGW> "guys don't trust him, our game is actually pretty bad"
02:33 <+due> *puerile, wow. I cannot spell.
02:33 <@dpeg> someone should point out the servers and the tutorials, perhaps
02:33 <+due> Perhaps he'll cover that next month?
02:33 <@dpeg> yes
02:34 <@dpeg> okay, sleep for reals
02:34 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit ["zzz"]
02:35 <+due> night!
02:45 -!- bmh [n=brendan@209-6-234-82.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit []
02:48 < CIA-81> kilobyte * rcd1279820c73 /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-stuff.cc): Unlike other dummy monsters, disallow polymorph into dwarves.
02:51 < TGW> kilobyte: why?
02:52 <+kilobyte> TGW: jpeg didn't want that
02:53 < TGW> hm
02:53 < TGW> I don't see why not, it's no more lame than the elves
02:54 <+due> I think it's fine for the minute.
02:54 <+kilobyte> we do have actual elf monsters, Wayne is the only dwarf (and used to leave human corpses contrary to his tile)
02:56 < syllogism> kilobyte: why do I sometimes get "nothing appears to happen" when I cast OOD
02:56 < syllogism> oh my god
02:56 < syllogism> wrong channel though
02:57 < TGW> kilobyte: "elf" is always a shapeshifter
02:57 <+kilobyte> syllogism: in any particular circumstances, or randomly?
02:57 < TGW> or so I hear
02:57 <+due> TGW: no
02:57 <+kilobyte> TGW: or an effect of polymorph
02:57 < TGW> or a poly
02:57 < TGW> pedants
02:58 <+due> Or Volcano.
02:58 <+due> some vaults use elf monsters.
02:58 < syllogism> kilobyte: 3.@ , eventually using z instead of Z worked
02:58 < syllogism> and I swear I tried z too
03:07 <+due> We should really finishing the glyph tweaks so we can give dwarves v like Eronjarn wanted.
03:09 <+kilobyte> uhm, why?  We don't have any dwarves save for Wayne.
03:10 <+kilobyte> and he's still one of those who deserve an axe (in addition to the one he helds)
03:10 <+due> Dwarf portal vault.
03:11 <+due> (Deep dwarf  portal vault.)
03:12 < purge> how about a dwarf unique named 'grimley'?
03:12 < Eronarn> kilobyte: i actually have an entire dwarf branch of similar difficutly to elf plotted out
03:12 <+due> purge: Wow, you've done a lot of tiles recently. <3
03:12 < Eronarn> i could add it in basically whenever, but it's not going into .6 anyways
03:12 < purge> i mean, "grimli"
03:12 < purge> :)
03:12 < Eronarn> so i'm waiting for .7 before making a page about it
03:13 < purge> due: yeah i did a few today :)
03:13 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@85-131-28-198.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
03:13 <+due> :D they're *awesome*.
03:13 < purge> thanks :)
03:13 <+due> I really like the bush and the toadstools.
03:13 < purge> i gotta brighten the bush but that is very easy
03:13 < purge> (jpeg request)
03:13 <+due> I ca't finish the play-testing post now, but I've done 99% of it.
03:14 <+due> Just need to do the write-up on amulets and whatever commits come before I finish lunch :)
03:14 <+due> On that note, be back i na bit.
03:16 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
03:18 < Ashenzari> Make tiles for Dowan and Duvessa (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=439) by bookofjude
03:19 < purge> due: and then once you get done in the doll-dresser you can tweak them further in GIMP
03:19 < purge> so that a player can never look like them
03:34 < TGW> ??hooves
03:34 < Henzell> hooves[1/1]: Horse feet. Having them allows you to kick in melee, at the cost of stealth and footwear.
03:47 < purge> we need a unique that casts poison cloud and ignite poison
03:47 < purge> !fight kirke v nikola
03:48 < purge> !fight nikola v kirke
03:48 < purge> !fight nikola v hell hog
03:48 < purge> OOPS lol
03:55 < nrook_> Eronarn: why make a new dwarf branch, instead of just making vauls somewhat dwarf-themed?
03:56 < ogaz> nrook_: because there needs to a branch called "The Dwarven Fortress"
03:56 < Eronarn> yep
03:56 < Eronarn> it is designed to either be a portal vault, or a swap branch for Elven Halls, depending on how popular it is
04:00 < nrook_> a dwarven miner who casts dig to thwart corridor-fighting would be amazing
04:01 < nrook_> of course, there could easily be an orcish miner who does the same thing
04:02 -!- nrook_ is now known as nrook
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04:09 < TGW> we need orcish miners, yes
04:09 < TGW> for you know the orcish mines
04:10 < Eronarn> no.
04:11 < TGW> they might as well be called "the orc-infested pit of four spotty levels and the elf entrance"
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04:15 <+due> I return.
04:15 <+due> nrook: Or shatter.
04:17 <+due> Bush is excellent.
04:18 <+due> Eronarn: Why not orcish miners?
04:18 <+due> But yeah.
04:18 <+due> Orcs already have a lot of variety.
04:19 < Eronarn> due: don't think it fits in with orcs
04:20 <+due> Agree.
04:22 < ogaz> TGW: clearly there needs to be an orc with only one spell, which is summon cacodemon
04:22 < TGW> THEY HAVE MINES
04:22 < TGW> where did they come from??
04:23 < Eronarn> TGW: the dwarves dug them
04:23 < ogaz> no see those people I mentioned are the orcish miners
04:23 < Eronarn> the orcs took over
04:23 < ogaz> they mine by summoning cacodemons and using those to blow holes in the map
04:23 < Eronarn> haven't you ever read LOTR?
04:23 < TGW> they're orcish
04:23 < TGW> not orc-infested dwarven-created pits
04:23 < TGW> besides, dwarves live in mountains
04:23 <+due> Moving on.
04:24 < Eronarn> TGW: how do you know the dungeon isn't inside a mountain
04:24 < TGW> you can't dig out the sides
04:25 <+due> Okay, children. Cease.
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04:34 -!- nrook [n=nrook@68.14.16.167] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
04:35 <+due> Amulet of Faith affects penance, yes?
04:42 <+due> * http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=258 <-- New play testing post on the CDO blog!
04:43 < ogaz> due: nitpick: you couldn't use "rSlow to bypass the rage from amulet of rage
04:43 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
04:43 <+due> ogaz: True.
04:45 <+due> Fiixed, thanks.
04:48 < Ashenzari> beam path not drawn first (tiles-a1-2286) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=440) by ortoslon
04:49 <+due> Odd bug.
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05:14 < ortoslon> how do orcish priests "call down the wrath of Beogh" against me when i'm playing as an orc priest of beogh
05:14 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
05:14 < ortoslon> and when i kill them they're called "heretic priests"
05:16 <+sorear> Very effectively, that's how.
05:17 < TGW> ortoslon: I think you cheat at white butterfly
05:17 < ortoslon> why
05:17 < Kyrris> ortoslon: Beogh sides with the winner.
05:18 < ortoslon> TGW: i assure you i don't. come to russia and see me play :)
05:18 <+sorear> If an orc kills you, your orcs should (flavor only) desert your corpse for the True Messiah
05:19 < TGW> sorear: orc priests should offer your remains to beogh
05:20 < Kyrris> sorear: Very strongly agreed.  Context-sensitive deaths would be excellent, generally.
05:20 < ogaz> It would be really cool if orc priests/orc high priests/saint roka had special emotes when they fight a Beoghite
05:20 <+sorear> they do
05:21 <+sorear> look in the speech file for 'related' and 'Beogh' qualifiers
05:23 <+due> Sigh
05:23 <+due> I'm rubbish at making tiles :D
05:23 <+greensnark> due!
05:24 <+greensnark> I'm worse at making tiles :P
05:24 <+due> greensnark! Can you check my amulet post to make sure it's correct?
05:25 <+greensnark> due: Looks correct
05:27 <+greensnark> Hm, what does the stash tracker have to do with upstairs on D:1 not being marked visited
05:28 <+greensnark> Ssspiky turtleshell
05:29 <+greensnark> due: Nice detailed changelog :)
05:33 <+due> thanks, and I have no idea, but it was in th ecommit message :)
05:34 <+due> !tell purge I failed utterly to do anything I liked  with Dowan and Duvessa... Want to have a go for me? Basically, Dowan wears red and black robes, Duvessa wears blue and black/whatever armour!
05:34 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let purge know.
05:34 <+due> greensnark: Have you seen le spikes?
05:35 <+due> They look awesome.
05:38 <+greensnark> Cute!
05:38 <+greensnark> Looks like the turtle just got out of bed and its shell is all spiky :)
05:39 <+due> :D
05:41 <@elly> turtles!
05:53 < TGW> are the turtles carrying polearms or something? I don't get how the reaching works
05:53 <+due> ... Their necks.
05:53 <+due> They reach.
05:54 < TGW> http://www.dausettrails.com/snapturtle.jpg
05:54 < TGW> in other news I think I'm going to have nightmares
05:56 <+due> Our work here is done?
06:00 < Kyrris> They have six-foot necks?
06:00 <+due> Not in real life.
06:01 < Kyrris> I mean in crawl.
06:01 < Kyrris> Are these mutant spaghetti turtles?  I'd like that.
06:01 < Kyrris> Like that hindu from Street Fighter.
06:02 <+greensnark> They have telescopic necks in Crawl
06:02 < TGW> lol
06:02 < Kyrris> Right.
06:02 <+due> Hooray for telescopic turtles.
06:02 < Kyrris> What -was- his name?  The swami who levitated.
06:02 <+due> greensnark: You should do a section on testudinal virties.
06:02 <+due> *virtues.
06:02 < ogaz> Dhalsim?
06:02 < Kyrris> Thank you.
06:03 < Kyrris> There should be a unique turtle named Dalsom.
06:03 < Kyrris> Reaches -extra- far.
06:03 < Kyrris> Because he does yoga.
06:03 <+due> ...
06:03 <+due> greensnark: I'm for it.
06:04 <+greensnark> due: You do it, I've used up my allowance of player-slayage :P
06:04 < Kyrris> He should have throw flame, for accurate homage.
06:05 < Kyrris> I think having a fire-user native to Shoals would be a nice shakeup, too.
06:05 -!- eith [n=eith@86-40-245-49-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
06:05 <+due> Well
06:05 <+due> I have to do Grinder, the imp torturer, first.
06:05 <+due> Yes, I am naming a unique after a ##crawl chatter.  irule.
06:05 < Kyrris> What?
06:06  * greensnark casts Cleansing Flame on due.
06:07 < TGW> I have a picture of a baby alligator snapping turtle standing on top of a massive skull and I can't decide whether it's terrifying or adorable
06:09 <+due> Link.
06:10 < TGW> http://photography.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/Photography/Images/POD/b/baby-alligator-snapping-turtle-508509-xl.jpg
06:10 <+due> Kyrris: New unique called Grinder, who is an imp torturer from Tartarus, disillusioned with life and whoo ran away from his position.
06:10 <+due> omfg how adorable <333
06:10 <+due> greensnark: Can we get baby alligator snapping turrtles for swamps?
06:10 <+due> they can get no reaching, I suppse.
06:11 <+due> Kyrris: Named for impgrinder, who used to hang in ##crawl.
06:11 < TGW> due: let it cast shock
06:12 <+due> Hehehe.
06:13 < st_> set him to hd1 and give him crystal spear
06:13 < TGW> why
06:13 <+due> He's going to be a blue 5.
06:14 < TGW> !seen impgrinder
06:14 < Henzell> I last saw impgrinder at Sun Nov  1 15:46:35 2009 UTC (10w 5d 13h 27m 54s ago) quitting with message "Leaving".
06:14 < TGW> that was longer ago than I expected
06:16 < st_> I like the idea of an imp who memorised high level spells but can't cast them for shit
06:17 < Kyrris> That is pretty funy.
06:18 <+greensnark> due: Napkin suggested crocodiles for Swamp
06:18 <+greensnark> mugger crocodiles!
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06:20 <+greensnark> I initially considered the estuarine crocodile for Shoals, but went with sea snakes after Napkin suggested crocodiles might be a better fit for Swamp
06:21 < TGW> they should make crocodile tears in your armour
06:21 < TGW> and, you know, corrode it
06:22 <+greensnark> Isn't he charming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SaltwaterCrocodile('Maximo').jpg
06:23 < TGW> I prefer the turtles
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06:33 <+due> greensnark: I'm for it.
06:33 <+due> greensnark: We could use ts for crocodiles.
06:34 <+due> Actually, crocodiles and alligators for swamp.
06:34 <+due> We can maybe make the swamp creatures unique-ish.
06:34 <+greensnark> Yes
06:34 <+due> What are the monster sets for Swamp?
06:35 <+due> And we definitely need Swamp-unique frogs.
06:35 <+greensnark> The only semi-unique monsters are swamp drakes and swamp dragons
06:35 <+greensnark> And swamp worms, of course :P
06:36 <+due> So let's make them more interesting.
06:36 <+due> Crocodiles, alligators, swamp-unique frogs.
06:36 <+due> Giant mosquitoes are kinda swamp-unique.
06:37 <+due> Maybe tadpoles?
06:37 <+due> And mosquito larvae?
06:37 <+greensnark> Mostly ornamental? Why not
06:38 <+due> Ooh
06:38 <+due> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limnonectes
06:39 <+due> Fanged frogs!
06:39 <+greensnark> Are giant leeches in Swamp yet?
06:39 <+greensnark> @??giant leech
06:39 < Gretell> giant leech (w) | Speed: 8 | HD: 6 | Health: 30-60 | AC/EV: 5/15 | Damage: 20(vampiric) | Flags: amphibious, evil | Res: magic(24) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 86.
06:39 <+due> Yes
06:39 <+due> Not common enough, though.
06:40 <+due> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limnonectes_magnus
06:40 <+due> "Large swamp frog".
06:40 <+due> We could also do curare frogs for swamp, yes/yes?
06:40 <+greensnark> I should ask dpeg about rob's suggestion of picking 2 of swamp, shoals, snake instead of a simple swamp/shoal tradeoff
06:40 <+greensnark> poison dart frogs? :)
06:40 <+due> Yes!
06:41 < eith> ooh, i really like the idea of choosing
06:41 <+greensnark> eith: Oh, the player doesn't get to choose :P
06:41 < eith> oh =p
06:41 <+due> Should we make a swamp branch with suggestions for new monsters in it?
06:41 < eith> still cool
06:41 <+greensnark> due: Swamp brainstorm wiki page? Yes
06:42 <+due> I was thinking more of a git branch, but sure.
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06:53 <+due> greensnark: Fanged frogs would be interesting.
06:54 <+due> They could have AF_BITE attacks.
06:54 <+due> I think poison dart frogs would be cool if they have a ranged, spit-poison attack.
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06:58 <+greensnark> due: Doo t 
06:58 <+greensnark> *it
06:58 <+due> Oooh
06:58 <+due> New ant idea
06:58 <+due> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camponotus_saundersi
06:59 <+due> poison exploding ants, oh man
06:59 < ogaz> preferably make the frog not flee, because a fast, ranged fleeing monster sounds annoying
06:59 <+due> Oh, it exists.
06:59 <+due> ogaz: They'd be slow, but with a normal action speed.
07:00 <+due> I'll start it on a new page.
07:02 < Kyrris> Curare frogs are from the rainforest.
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07:03 <+haranp> can anyone reproduce 440 ?
07:03 <+haranp> (Dance card crash)
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07:04 <+haranp> also, sorry for the silly question, but what does 'as of 0.6.0-a1-2286' mean?
07:05 <+due> Check the trunk website
07:05 <+due> One moment
07:05 <+due> http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/
07:05 <+due> 2289 is the CDO code for g4224dfb.
07:06 <+haranp> ah
07:06 <+haranp> I thought it was a git code
07:06 <+sorear> 0.6.0-a1-2286 means nothing
07:06 <+sorear> you should never chop off the last part of the version, because it's the only important part
07:06 <+due> Yeah.
07:07 < ortoslon> oh
07:07 <+due> I should aadjust the archive generator code to include the gitrev.
07:07 <+due> but... I am lazy.
07:07 <+sorear> archive generator?
07:07 <+sorear> how about we just make Crawl report the version as 0.6-4224dfb
07:07 <+due> I wrote code to generate the archive.html page.
07:07 <+greensnark> aadjusting the aarchive generator written by aardvarks
07:07 < ortoslon> http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/ asks for the number, not hash
07:07 <+sorear> that a1-2286 stuff means nothing for me
07:07 <+haranp> so does anyone else get the 440 crash?
07:08 <+due> ortoslon: I should update also.
07:08 <+due> Revision number is a throw-back to SVN.
07:08  * due updating.
07:08 <+haranp> oh, and greensnark: everything now compiles for me in trunk but I get link errors
07:08 <+haranp> (I picked you as a random person who understands linkers)
07:09 <+greensnark> I don't understand linkers very well, but what are the errors? :)
07:09  * due links arms with greensnark, dances.
07:09 <+haranp> compiling now, will let you know in a minute
07:09 <+greensnark> Also crystal balls of energy + guardian spirit == disgusting
07:09 <+due> greensnark: Buut acceptable, according to dpeg. :)
07:09 <+haranp> I get the feeling that it's linking in global libraries and includes, not the crawl-specified ones
07:09 <+greensnark> Actually crystal balls of energy == disgusting all by itself
07:10 <+haranp> (i.e. it doesn't actually use contrib/ once it compiles it)
07:10 <+greensnark> haranp: You're building curses or tiles?
07:10 <+haranp> tiles now
07:10 <+greensnark> The tile build is pretty delicate, especially on a mac
07:10 <+haranp> this is ubuntu hardy
07:11 <+haranp> (yes, I know it's old, don't blame me)
07:11 <+haranp> IMG_png.c:(.text+0x16): undefined reference to `png_create_info_struct'
07:11 <+due> I had a fucking nightmare builting tiles on Ubuntu jjaunty.
07:11 <+haranp> contrib/install/lib/libSDL_image.a(IMG_png.o): In function `IMG_InitPNG':
07:11 <+haranp> reverse the order of those two lines
07:11 <+haranp> and then there's a whole bunch of other undefined rferences
07:11 <+haranp> all png_ functions
07:12 <+greensnark> You should probably tell the tile makefile not to use pkg-config for libpng
07:12 <+haranp> ...how?
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07:12 <+greensnark> Try editing rltiles/makefile.unix and change the PNG_LIB line to PNG_LIB := -lpng -lz
07:12 <+greensnark> You may also have to do the similar thing to SDL_LDFLAGS
07:12 <+due> I am glad that I am the only one that does not comprehend makefiles. Eurgh.
07:13 <+haranp> no change
07:13 <+haranp> hm
07:13 <+due> greensnark: Created the swamp monsters branistorm page
07:13 <+due> haranp: do you have libpng-dev or whatever installed?
07:13 <+haranp> but V=1 shows it's not even trying to link libpng
07:13 <+haranp> oh
07:14 <+haranp> I probably need to make clean / make in tiles, right?
07:14 < Ashenzari> bookofjude created page Swamp monsters at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:swamp_monsters
07:14 <+greensnark> Maybe make distclean to be safe
07:14 <+due> Bah, fucked up the lists.
07:15 <+due> I should preview more often
07:15  * greensnark previews due.
07:15 <+greensnark> Hey, my name is in there for some reason :P
07:15 <+haranp> why isn't it using the contrib/ version of libpng? and if it is, why isn't it working?
07:16 <+haranp> is it preferring my local copy or something?
07:16 <+greensnark> What does the linker line look like?
07:16 <+haranp> I'll tell you as soon as it gets there
07:17 <+due> fixed
07:17  * greensnark also runs a tiles build.
07:17 <+greensnark> Not that there's much point for comparison, using a Mac here
07:17 <+haranp> it works!
07:17 <+greensnark> Yay!
07:18 <+haranp> aha
07:18 <+haranp> 440 is *not* my bug :)
07:18 <+haranp> is it possible that dancing weapons don't have tiles?
07:19 <+due> Unlikely, they might not be initiated properlyy, though.
07:19 <+due> Okay, I fixed the tiles page; it now asks for the "revision hash", identifies what bit that is, and also reports the hash.
07:21 <+haranp> s/440/438/g above
07:21 <+due> I'm going to update CDO for the new command keys. Any objections?
07:23 <+greensnark> Speak now or forever hold my peace?
07:23 <+greensnark> Go for it :P
07:23 <+due> I don't know when it was last run.
07:24 <+due> Aah, yesterday.
07:25 <+due> Maybe not. Hm.
07:26 <+haranp> ok, this is too deep in tiles for me to figure it out
07:26 <+haranp> but I have a good guess:
07:26 <+due> The dancing weapon?
07:26 <+haranp> yeah
07:26 <+haranp> it gets placed in mons_place
07:26 <+due> Is it hapening in non-tiles?
07:26 <+haranp> no
07:26 <+haranp> and then it gets _maybe_init_tilenum_props called
07:27 <+due> hm
07:27 <+haranp> but, it hasn't had been inited yet
07:27 <+due> That's new code since then, though
07:27 <+haranp> i.e. it's not holding 'itself'
07:27 <+due> tilenum_props is only used for when there are variations of monsters
07:27 <+due> hm
07:27 <+due> if it out or mons->type == MONS_DANCING_WEAPON?
07:28 <+haranp> _maybe_init_tilenum_props is called for every non-mimic, non-mered-slime-cleature monster
07:29 <+due> Does it crash with summon ugly things?
07:29 <+haranp> let me check
07:29 <+due> I can't imagine it would..
07:30 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2301-gcd12798 (16.0)!
07:30 <+haranp> no
07:30 <+haranp> it doesn't
07:31 < Mu_> due if you do -tv:>1000 or something you can usually see the entire portal bein cleared
07:31 <+due> Didn't think so.
07:31 <+due> Mu_: Yeah, I was lazy and freenode was laggy as fuck
07:33 <+greensnark> Mu_: -tv:>$
07:33 <+due> What does that do?
07:33 <+greensnark> Plays till the end of the ttyrec
07:33 <+due> Oh, nice.
07:33 < Mu_> cool :)
07:33 <+due> Can I get it to start from the moment they enter the portal vault?
07:33 <+greensnark> Or until someone cancels playback and kills the requestor
07:34 <+due> You seem to sit and wait for years until they enter.
07:34 <+greensnark> !lm * place=wizlab -tv:<0:>$
07:34 < Henzell> 11. 78291, XL22 DERe, T:83685 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
07:34 <+due> <3.
07:34 < Mu_> i prolly need to come up with more lines for the prisoners 
07:35 <+due> plz do!
07:35 <+greensnark> What has been done to me?!
07:35 < Mu_> the grammar is still weird in one of them :p
07:35 <+greensnark> "I have been mutated to speak exclusively in dreadful cliches!" :P
07:35 <+greensnark> scnr :)
07:35 < Mu_> D:
07:35 <+greensnark> Prisoner should ask for a smoke :)
07:36 < Mu_> yells i am not a number
07:36 <+greensnark> <3
07:36 <+greensnark> "I am not a number, I am a free man!"
07:36 <+sorear> w:1
07:37 < CIA-81> haranp * r6dc4f972a25d /crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Fix for bug 438: when drawing Dance, and probably creating dancing weapons
07:37 <+haranp> who should I assign a tiles bug to? evktalo?
07:38 <+due> Enne, myself, jpeg or Eino
07:38 <+due> jpeg or enne first, though
07:38  * haranp flips a coin
07:38 <+greensnark> due: Some tile based games do very pretty smoothing of tiles around water bodies, do you know how that's done?
07:38 <+due> greensnark: No :(
07:39 <+doy> it's not that hard
07:39 <+due> Crawl is the first game I've ever had anythin to do with tiles.
07:39 <+due> and most of my stuff is related to vaults.
07:39 <+doy> you just need more stuff to be drawn for the boundaries
07:40 <+doy> beyond that, basically just edge detection
07:40 <+greensnark> doy: Are they custom tiles or do they clip the tiles with curvy edges?
07:40 <+due> Mu_: Might need more very ugly things, actually, and some slightly stronger monsters.
07:40 <+doy> well
07:40 <+due> Mu_: But I think n78291 is the upper band of strong players :)
07:40 <+doy> i've seen it in the simple case where there was just one ground tile type and one water tile type
07:41 <+greensnark> Ah, so draw the ground tile, then clip the water tile and draw it on top?
07:41 <+greensnark> I should really look at the tile code
07:41 <+due> okay, ,bck in a bit
07:41 <+doy> well, it had separate tiles for borders
07:41 <+doy> where it was already overlapped
07:41 <+doy> that wouldn't really be feasible for crawl
07:41 <+greensnark> Oh
07:41 <+doy> but doing it dynamically shouldn't be *too* much harder, i wouldn't think
07:41 <+doy> i do think it would make things look a lot better
07:42 <+greensnark> Yes
07:42 < Mu_> due: if you're melee you're gonna be gettin punched a lot by those pulsating lumps though :p
07:43 <+doy> what would be even better than that would be to be able to smooth things like diagonal lines
07:43 <+doy> but that would be quite a bit harder
07:43 <+greensnark> There should be a corridor of writhing flesh that dissolves into pulsating lumps when the player reaches the midpoint
07:43 <+greensnark> doy: Yeah, that sounds tricky
07:44 < ogaz> !lm * place=wizlab -tv:<0:>$
07:44 < Henzell> 11. 78291, XL22 DERe, T:83685 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
07:44 < Eronarn> doy: there are some DF tilesets that do stuff like that iirc
07:44 <+doy> Eronarn: i'm sure there are
07:44 <+doy> but looking at df for things that are reasonable to implement is, well...
07:46 < Eronarn> http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Tileset_repository#Turnip it's very pretty, though
07:46 <+doy> yeah, that is nice
07:47 < ogaz> Cigutovi's Fleshworks looks awesome
07:48 <+greensnark> ogaz: Yep!
07:48 < Mu_> :))
07:48 <+greensnark> And it has fleshy orifices for doors :D
07:48 < ogaz> is that see-through glass stone or rock?
07:49 < Mu_> rock
07:49 <+greensnark> wizlabs are going to be finished in time for 0.6, right?
07:49 < ogaz> kiting all those pulsating lumps to death looks obnxious on melee
07:49 < ogaz> obnoxious, even
07:49 <+doy> greensnark: i hope so
07:50 <+doy> what isn't finished about them?
07:50 <+greensnark> due keeps talking about needing another six months of dev on them :P
07:50 <+doy> due is too much of a perfectionist d:
07:50 <+greensnark> We had to armtwist due into merging them int omaster :)
07:51 < ogaz> are all of them on a similar difficulty level to fleshworks?
07:51 <+greensnark> Well, I'd hope there is some variation in difficulty :)
07:52 < Mu_> they seem quite varied
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08:00 <+due> they should be
08:00 <+due> and I am not a perfectionist, I just... don't have enough time
08:00 <+due> greensnark: Tagging the layout as no monster gen and no item gen seems to take care of the problem of random monsters generating outside the vaults...
08:01 <+due> But I think that fucks up the EXP balance.
08:01 <+due> haranp: I don't think it should be an issue, because the dancing weapon tiles aren't likely to have much in the way of variations.
08:03 <+haranp> I don't like hardcoding exceptions
08:03 <+due> Agree.
08:03 <+haranp> we could hack tileidx_base
08:03 <+due> We could just move the code to after the dancing weapons are intiiated..
08:03 <+haranp> not easily
08:03 <+haranp> because it's in create_monster()
08:04 <+haranp> no chance to init the weapon
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08:04 <+due> oh
08:04 <+haranp> but tiledix_base can return a default something-or-other rather than assuming a DW's weapon is valid
08:04 <+due> I thought it was in _place_monster_aux?
08:05 <+haranp> I might be misunderstanding:
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08:05 <+haranp> you can only init the weapon slot after the DW's been created by create_monster() (which does call place_monster, etc)
08:06 <+due> what about mon-place.cc:1293?
08:06 <+haranp> hm
08:07 <+due> tile_num only seems to be used by the tilepick code, which means that it should be okay to move the code until after it's defined
08:07 <+haranp> right
08:08 <+haranp> well, I hope so
08:08 <+haranp> I really don't grok tiles
08:08 <+due> heh
08:08 <+due> well, tilepick code is only called when updating the view
08:08 <+haranp> ok, so that would probably be a better fix
08:08 <+due> the worst that can happen is that a monster's tile changes suddenly--I don't think that's actually possible though
08:09 <+due> (of course, I could be completely wrong, my understanding of the tile code isn't necessarily excellent)
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08:16 < CIA-81> due vaults * r11147957affa /crawl-ref/source/dat/vault_gen.des: Further tweaks to the generation involving stairs: clumps of stairs.
08:16 <+due> greensnark: What do you think about the random monster generation for a Vaults level taking place in a lua vault?
08:16 < CIA-81> due vaults * ra3394f23d07f /crawl-ref/ (17 files in 6 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into vaults
08:16 <+due> I'm not sure wwehtehr it's a good idea, but I think it might be the only way to move monsters into rooms.
08:17 <+doy> i doubt that
08:17 <+doy> just need a flag that's the inverse of no_monster_gen
08:17 <+doy> (:
08:17 <+due> Heh.
08:17 <+due> Hmm, now that's an interesting idea.
08:18 <+due> You can kmask them.
08:18 <+due> So I could just kmask the outside of the vault.
08:18 < CIA-81> haranp * rdecb6b25c768 /crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Fix 440: beam path display improperly initialized in Tiles.
08:23 <+due> !killsby tormentor
08:23 < Henzell> 34 games for * (ckiller=tormentor): 3x heteroy, 3x Eronarn, 2x nil, 1x megane, 1x rav, 1x pgs2a, 1x etherised, 1x timruff, 1x poop, 1x Karagy, 1x mr0t, 1x mlnx, 1x mattreid, 1x Cryptic, 1x Arca, 1x IronRobin, 1x MUMMY, 1x simul, 1x akhripin, 1x rolfh, 1x BeefBone, 1x KiloByte, 1x diverobin, 1x Shivaasori, 1x itsmu, 1x toft, 1x DashNine, 1x sorear2, 1x eliotn
08:23 <+due> !killsby hellion
08:23 < Henzell> 299 games for * (ckiller=hellion): 8x 78291, 5x goetter, 5x simonj, 5x Nexos, 4x Ping, 4x syllogism, 4x poop, 3x sparks, 3x DrPraetor, 3x dirge23, 3x Gurney, 3x Grimm, 3x Marvel, 3x Jaeger, 3x foobar, 3x heteroy, 3x mercury, 3x KiloByte, 3x Jovan, 3x MadDasher, 3x Kjoery, 2x zyrkx, 2x Jmadman311, 2x puffycloud, 2x Lemuel, 2x ekaterin, 2x Ozymandias, 2x Shaijin, 2x oxeimon, 2x Stathol, 2x sorear, 2...
08:24 < Ashenzari> Entered Pan Level; Dropped directly onto hellion island. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=441) by heteroy
08:25 <+due> That definitely should not happen.
08:25 < Ero> hhhhhhahha wow
08:25 < Ero> that is awful
08:25 <+due> It's like "HIII UR FUCKD :D"
08:27 <+doy> i thought that along with the check that should be there to keep pan entrances from landing you in the pan lord vault, the hellion island specifically was entirely filled with hellions, so that there was no room for you to teleport onto it (or land on it)
08:27 <+doy> or does level changing override there being no place for you to go
08:27 <+doy> i guess it would have to
08:28 <+due> Yeah, it does.
08:28 <+due> It teleports any monsters at the arrival location away.
08:28 < AceTetra> whoa really? like, simple random tele?
08:29 < AceTetra> i wonder if that
08:29 <+greensnark> I think hellion island is pretty uncool in general
08:29 < AceTetra> 's exploitable on vault 8
08:29 <+greensnark> One or two hellions, ok, whole writhing masses of them -- nope
08:29 <+due> AceTetra: No, because they get a free turn on the other side.
08:29 <+due> greensnark: I think it's funny, but basically has the same issue as the majority of Lemuel's other "hard" vaults: they're just too overpoweringly hard.
08:30 <+greensnark> Yeah, the vault shouldn't just scare away most players
08:30 <+greensnark> You want to make them think they have a chance, so they go in and die
08:30 <+greensnark> If you make it forbiddingly hard, they just avoid it altogether :P
08:30 < AceTetra> rename tentacle thing to writhing mass
08:30 < Ero> AceTetra: no, we just need to add more Xs :P
08:31 < Ero> i'm tempted to write up an X generator
08:31 < Ero> for summon horrible things
08:32 < AceTetra> i like the gargoyle vault that doesn't have to lure you in: you just autoexplore and you have 8 gargoyles after you
08:33 <+due> I hate that fvault.
08:35 < Ero> more vaults should stop autoexplore
08:36 <+due> Okay
08:36 <+due> so I currently have nothing for Iskenderun's for "interesting".
08:36 <+due> Anyone got any ideas?
08:37 < Ero> what's in isky's atm
08:37 <+sorear> pillars
08:37 <+due> And purple smoke.
08:38 <+greensnark> A purple orb room surrounded by orbiting islands of fog clouds
08:38 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1753290
08:38 < Ero> due: have you ever played halflife?
08:38 <+due> No
08:38 <+due> greensnark: Already got something like that :)
08:38 <+greensnark> due: Do they move? :)
08:38 <+due> greensnark: Though than kyou for the reminder, I meant to do another type of cloud that's designed to be specifically overwritten
08:39 <+due> greensnark: will termcast, one sec
08:39 <+due> greensnark: termcasting
08:40 <+greensnark> Watching
08:40 <+greensnark> White fluffiness :P
08:40 <+due> :D
08:40 < Ero> due: there's a boss that fires seeking projectiles at you, and there are pillars to hide behind
08:40 <+due> Ero: Ahh, this is kinda like that.
08:41 <+due> greensnark: White sea!
08:41 < Ero> the idea being that you have to dodge until he cycles to a point you can attack at
08:41 <+greensnark> Very white :)
08:42 < Ero> i like something like... there is a big central orb, which fires rapidfire orbs at anything it can see, but it has a timer
08:42 < Ero> each pillar has a thing that powers the central orb, that you can attack, but to be able to see it to attack it you'd have to get into the central orb's LOS
08:42 <+due> Hehehe, he still confuses himself.
08:43 < Ero> something like a 2x3 pillar, with the square facing the orb replaced by the generator
08:43 <+greensnark> Interesting level
08:43 <+greensnark> But very very white :)
08:43 <+due> Yeah, it's a Mu level.
08:43 <+due> Though the white is me.
08:43 <+greensnark> I think a little more colour might be nice?
08:44 <+greensnark> A nice lightblue for walls, maybe
08:44 <+due> Hm.
08:44 <+greensnark> At first I thought there was a termcast bug that made it monochrome :P
08:44 <+due> Hm.
08:44 <+due> I'm not sure I like that.
08:45 <+greensnark> sky-blue for the cloud mage :P
08:45 <+greensnark> Or maybe lightcyan
08:46 <+due> I like white on white!
08:46 <+greensnark> :)
08:46 <+due> Oh, that's nicer.
08:47 <+due> How about that?
08:48 <+greensnark> Yess
08:48 <+greensnark> Looks a bit Cocytusey
08:48 <+greensnark> Or actually, Panny
08:49 <+greensnark> But it's good
08:49 <+due> Better?
08:49 <+greensnark> Yep
08:49 <+due> I like that more.
08:49 <+due> Mu_?
08:49 < st_> that's chaotic
08:50 < st_> so much flickering :P
08:50 <+due> That's portal vaults :0
08:51 < Mu_> i kinda liked everything being white and silver ;p
08:51 <+due> True, but blue sky!
08:52 < Mu_> don't mind the lightblue floor but that's because my boldblue colour is set to be skyblue
08:52 < Mu_> is this izzy's?
08:52 <+due> Do normal naga mages spit poison/
08:52 <+due> Yes
08:52 < Mu_> looks like Zot
08:53 <+due> Yeah, intentional, kinda.
08:53 < Mu_> you could have a gauntlet that's lined by statues firing orbs at you
08:53 <+due> Exists :)
08:53 <+due> You either get to fight all the monsters
08:54 <+due> Or try and sneak around the outside and avoid the orbs.
08:54 < Mu_> cool
08:55 < Mu_> be a good map to reuse your televault trick
08:56 <+due> Yeah, going to code up a "monsters won't open this door unless it's already been opened" flag.
08:56 <+due> greensnark: Is there a way for C++ to alter the content of a portal_desc marker, beyond deleting it?
08:56 <+due> Oh, awkward.
08:56 <+due> a purple draconian corpse mystid!
08:56 <+greensnark> due: Well, what do you want it to do
08:57 < Mu_> can you apply that to all doors that are as-yet undetected by the player as a default ;p
08:57 <+greensnark> Markers can also be moved
08:57 <+due> Mu_: No. :0
08:57 < Mu_> :(
08:57 <+due> greensnark: Basically, if there is a marker, don't let monster's pathfid through this door; if the player has opened it, let them follow.
08:57 <+greensnark> Beyond that, the C++ code doesn't mess with them much, but if you need something, it can be done
08:57 <+due> Removing the marker would work
08:57 <+greensnark> due: There's already something similar to that to keep jellies from eating doors in ziggurats
08:57 <+due> But I'd rather just be able to set a flag in it to say that "yes, it has been previously opened by the player"
08:57 <+due> greensnark: Jellies won't pathfind through closed doors...
08:58 <+greensnark> They will eat doors
08:58 <+due> Interesting
08:58 <+greensnark> Oh, you mean they won't eat closed doors?
08:58 <+due> Yeah
08:59 <+greensnark> Should be pretty easy to check a property on the marker
08:59 <+due> But what about setting it?
08:59 <+due> (I know how to check properties, I wrote the code that hackishly allows you to rebrand all working parts of doors.)
08:59 <+greensnark> Fire an event in the open door code for players/monsters
09:00 <+due> Which means actually writing a marker for them :)
09:00 <+greensnark> You can either add an official dgn_event, or just call a method directly
09:01 <+due> Hm.
09:02 <+due> Bah.
09:02 <+due> greensnark: How does that work in combination with a portal_desc marker, though?
09:02 <+due> I suppose it could subclass it.
09:03 <+due> door_opened shouldn't be a too difficult event
09:03 <+due> Or we could even link it off player_moved.
09:03 <+greensnark> The player doesn't have to move into the square after opening the door :P
09:03 <+due> True.
09:04 <+due> Can I subclass off two classes?
09:04 <+due> Triggerable and portal_desc?
09:04 <+greensnark> :P
09:05 <+greensnark> You can, but it's not as easy as simple inheritance
09:09 <+due> Bah.
09:09 <+due> I could just copy the code out of portal_desc then.
09:10 <+due> How difficult is it?
09:10 <+due> Oh, never mind.
09:10 -!- mrawt is now known as mr0t
09:10 <+due> Triggerables already have the relevant portal desc code in them. <3 Matthew.
09:11 <+due> Who is [ds] in code?
09:15 <+haranp> greensnark
09:19 <+due> Oh.
09:19 <+due> Duh.
09:20 <+due> Darshan Shaligram.
09:23 < Napkin> moin guys!
09:23 <+due> hi napking!
09:23 < Napkin> due :)
09:24 < Napkin> some DOS tonight?
09:27 -!- Ero [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
09:27 <+due> No, it's quiet, thank god ):
09:27 <+due> *:)
09:28 <+due> greensnark: Thank you foor ms_waste_of_time, I think I just buffed Mara & co.
09:29 <+due> :D
09:30 <+Zaba_> ms_waste_of_time?
09:34 <+due> ogaz: Torment still does not kill directly.
09:35 < ogaz> due: true
09:36 <+due> @??tormentor
09:36 < Gretell> tormentor (3) | Speed: 13 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 12/12 | Damage: 8, 8 | Flags: demonic, evil, fly | Res: magic(56), fire, poison | XP: 412 | Sp: pain, torment symbol.
09:36 <+due> @??smoke demon
09:36 < Gretell> smoke demon (3) | Speed: 9 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 8, 5, 5 | Flags: demonic, fly | Res: magic(56), fire++, poison | XP: 314 | Sp: sticky flame, steam ball, smiting.
09:37 < ogaz> due: I think it might just be that I'm(probably overly) terrified of torment
09:37 <+due> Everyone is, usually.
09:37 <+due> When I gave Menkaure torment there was this *massive* backlash.
09:37 < ogaz> also, fun fact: tormentors have more kills than lorocyprocas
09:41 -!- haranp [n=haranp@c-98-248-38-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"]
09:42 < ogaz> due: really? torment that early doesn't seem too threatening compared to what other enemies can do...
09:42 <+due> Yes.
09:42 <+due> Let me find the post, it was amusing.
09:44 <+due> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2899014&group_id=143991&atid=757516
09:44 <+due> the other thing I love about Mantis is so anonymous commenting.
09:46 <+due> *no anonymous commenting
09:48 < ogaz> oh, I remember that post
09:49 < CIA-81> due * r7423e92a6529 /crawl-ref/source/ (mislead.cc mislead.h mon-cast.cc mon-util.cc): Provide "waste of time" checks for Mislead, fake Mara summon, player ghost.
09:50 <+due> :)
09:52 <+due> greensnark: Have you dealt with Polyphemus yet?
10:13 -!- qbert911 [i=qbert911@35-87-syr-ny.dialin.a-315.westelcom.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
10:20 < Ashenzari> bookofjude created page dcss:brainstorm:blog:playtesting at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:blog:playtesting
10:20 <+due> Napkin: oh no, playtesting instead of play-testing!
10:21 < Napkin> lol
10:25 <+due> Oh, jellies *will* eat  closed doors.
10:25 <+due> I thought we changed that?
10:25 < Napkin> it was, i think
10:28 -!- qbert911 [i=qbert911@35-87-syr-ny.dialin.a-315.westelcom.com] has quit []
10:43 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
10:50 < Napkin> Eronarn?
10:51 < Napkin> I need to take down the CDO website to upgrade the dokuwiki
11:00 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
11:10 <+due> Going for aa jog, back in a bit.
11:12 < Napkin> enjoy!
11:12 < Napkin> !tell Eronarn I upgraded the Wiki - please let me know if there are any errors :)
11:12 < Henzell> Napkin: OK, I'll let Eronarn know.
11:20 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"]
11:25 <+due> back :)
11:50 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@88-148-201-179.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:57 <+greensnark> syllogism: heteroy died in Shoals again :P
11:57 <+greensnark> Not very interesting death though
12:02 <+due> And I buffedMara.
12:02 <+sorear> I thought you nerfed Mara
12:02 <+due> What, just recently?
12:02 <+due> Moving the sanity/spam checks into ms_waste_of_time out of the spells is a buff, I'm pretty sure.
12:03 <+sorear> like a week ago
12:03 <+greensnark> due on the rocks
12:03 <+due> Ah, I tweaked the range again.
12:03 <+due> greensnark in the... hills!
12:04 <+sorear> what about ME?
12:05 <+due> I have no idea.
12:19 -!- hashc [n=hash@adsl-68-76-123-64.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
12:25 <+greensnark> due: I have not dealt with Polyphemus
12:25 <+due> Ah.
12:25 <+due> No yak throwing?
12:25 <+greensnark> I forgot about it, I should take a look
12:26 <+greensnark> No yak throwing, dpeg wants throwing events confined to sheep
12:26 <+greensnark> Apparently yak are sacred to lobsterkind
12:28 <+due> Okay. sheep throwing is okay.
12:35 <+Keskitalo> Afternoons!
12:39 <+Keskitalo> @play's Crawl column: "considering the game's importance and continued development we have not discussed it nearly as much as it deserves" oo nice
12:42 <+Keskitalo> "jar of destruction" sounds good. =)
12:45 <+due> Keskitalo: But it  clashes with my terracotta jar idea :(
12:45 <+due> I suppose that could be a terracotta urn instead.
12:45 <+Keskitalo> Could we get e.g. Gretell announce blog posts on ##crawl?
12:46 <+due> That would be fun!
12:46 <+Keskitalo> That would reach some audience. :)
12:47 <+due> I usually annouce them when I make them, though.
12:47 <+due> Keskitalo: Was the unique post okay, btw? I meant to run it by you before I posted it--seing as some of them are yours.
12:47 <+Keskitalo> Gretell could automaticlaly announce update-cdo and update-mingws too. Heh, I guess we could use bots project in Mantis, so I could FR these?
12:48 <+Keskitalo> due: Yes, it was good, I believe I commented too. :)
12:48 <+due> I had to waffle a bit for Maurice and Nikola.
12:48 <+due> Everyone else had relatively solid speech and backstory.
12:48 <+Keskitalo> I only afterwards thought that it'd been cool to add an image of each to the list. :/ Could do it afterwards too of course.
12:48 <+due> Oh, so true.
12:48 <+due> Also, I had to give up on Dowan and Duvessa tiles. I tried it in the doll maker... but it just doesn't work well.
12:49 <+due> The deep elf dolls are different to deep elf monsters.
12:49 <+Keskitalo> Yeah.
12:49 <+due> I've asked purge to give a go :)
12:49 <+Keskitalo> Good!
12:49 <+due> Did you see purge's latest batch?
12:52 <+Keskitalo> Sure, toadstool, bush, sleep needles? Unless there was more. O_o
12:52 <+due> Yeah, the toadstools were awesome.
12:52 <+Keskitalo> PigVomit is working on improved orb guardian. I'm supposed to send him (supposing a he) a sketch.
12:53 <+Keskitalo> They're pretty cute, yeah. :)
12:53 <+due> :D
12:53 <+due> Use "em" where gender is unknown or ambiguous.
12:53 <+Keskitalo> They should get the palette swapping / colour overlay thing which I believe was worked on previously?
12:53 <+due> It's done!
12:53 <+Keskitalo> Great!
12:53 <+due> I'm debating getting black stone for Wucad Mu's wizlab working.
12:53 <+Keskitalo> Thanks, I couldn't remember any of the ambiguous pronouns.
12:54 <+Keskitalo> In Finnish, it's simple, we just call everyone "it".
12:55  * due grins.
12:55 <+due> Spivak's pronouns are non-official, but widely used in crawl's circle, I think?
12:55 <+due> Or at least, ##crawl-offtopic.
12:55 <+greensnark> Spivak always triggers my mental spellchecker
12:55 <+due> Heh.
12:55 <+Keskitalo> There's "hän" that is a word to refer to a person and it can be male or female, but in speech it has degenerated to "se", which equals "it". Using "hän" sounds quite formal and a bit clumsy.
12:56  * greensnark prefers singular "they".
12:56 <+due> "They" is okay, but I've grown to like Spivak
12:56 <+Keskitalo> I usually convert "player has several options, so he can.." ...waitaminute, --> "players have several options, so they can.."
12:56 <+due> Damn show tunes stuck in my head.
12:56 < CIA-81> greensnark * r41fd120631f9 /crawl-ref/ (CREDITS.txt source/util/columnise-credits.pl): Fix name sorting in columnise-credits.
12:56 < CIA-81> greensnark * rad28312cd281 /crawl-ref/source/dgn-shoals.cc: Give Ilsuiw a better tide peak for Call Tide.
12:57 <+greensnark> Call tide should now be a little more impressive
12:57 <+due> Keskitalo: Interestingly enough, "he" was the standard genderless pronoun when referring to a non-specific entity up until the late 50s or so.
12:57 <+greensnark> I was very disappointed with her use of it in Eifel's game :P
12:58 <+Keskitalo> The baby alligator snapping turtles should be in Sewers! :)
12:58 <+due> greensnark: Can we get baby alligator snapping turtles, you think?
12:58 <+due> Maybe we could just reprand normal alligator snapping turtles and re-HD them.
12:58 <+greensnark> !tell dpeg rob suggested randomly picking any two of Snake, Swamp and Shoals instead of a simple Swamp/Shoals tradeoff. What do you think?
12:58 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
12:58 <+due> Would still require a new tile, though.
12:58 <+Keskitalo> hey btw
12:58 <+Keskitalo> giant lizard -> crocodile? or alligator - there's alligators in Australia but not crocodiles, rite?
12:59 < syllogism> greensnark: did you see my splat? First I accidentally used death's door because that macro used to be dispel undead and then I quaffed !oHW intead of dropping it :P
12:59 <+greensnark> I thought Australia had saltwater crocodiles
12:59 <+greensnark> syllogism: Yeah :P
12:59 <+due> Australia has saltwater crocodiles, yes.
12:59 <+due> syllogism: That was pretty funny, thoug.
12:59 <+greensnark> syllogism: But you were playing HEWz again, so you had it coming just for boring the socks off the audience :P
12:59 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: I'd like that I think. Esp. when we get to add more branches for the roulette. :]
12:59 <+due> I was sitting there going "wait... why are you about to drink !oHW?"
13:00 < syllogism> no reason to play anything else :P
13:00 <+Keskitalo> Oh, okay. I don't remember the difference anyway. :)
13:00 <+due> Keskitalo: I've got a new sewer map in my head. :D
13:01 <+due> @??giant lizard
13:01 < Gretell> giant lizard (l) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(20) | XP: 104.
13:01 <+due> @??ogre
13:01 < Gretell> ogre (O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Damage: 17 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 120.
13:01 <+due> Is ogre with no weapn, specifically, too much? I didn't think so.
13:01 <+greensnark> In the Sewer?
13:02 <+greensnark> A weaponless ogre ought to be easy to kill by maneouvring it into shallow water
13:02 <+due> Hm, true.
13:02 <+due> Maybe weaponless isn't even needed.
13:02 <+due> Keskitalo: There's a page for unique Swamp monsters.
13:02 <+greensnark> The Sewer has an exit close to the entrance anyway
13:02 <+greensnark> If players want to run, they can :P
13:03 < syllogism> @?? purgy
13:03 < Gretell> Purgy (T) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 35 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Damage: 9, 4, 4 | Res: magic(13) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 134.
13:03 <+due> I think this will be an excellent idea, giving all of the branches something unique.
13:03 <+due> Orcish mines have... orcs, which are orcs, elven halls have elves, Shoals have merfolk, Snake have nagas...
13:03 <+due> Swamp doesn't really have anything. Hydras are common elsewhere, so it's just swamp dragons and swamp drakes, and they're pretty boring.
13:03 <+due> Maybe we could also spice up swamp drakes?
13:04 <+Keskitalo> You forget swamp worms. ;)
13:04 <+greensnark> Swamp dragons are also pretty weak
13:04 <+greensnark> @??swamp dragon
13:04 < Gretell> swamp dragon (D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 45-90 | AC/EV: 7/7 | Damage: 18, 9, 9 | Flags: fly | Res: magic(36), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 682 | Sp: poisonous cloud.
13:04 <+greensnark> Pitiful
13:05 <+Keskitalo> Anyhow, I guess people here don't like the running revision number instead of the hash, but keep in mind it's much easier on the users. (Or so I figure.)
13:05 <+greensnark> Can we add the hound of the Baskervilles :P
13:06 <+greensnark> Every time I think of swamps and fens I think of that movie :P
13:06 -!- bhaak [n=bhaak@84.74.155.65] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:06 <+Keskitalo> due: Ogre without a weapon should be fine, depends on the map of course.
13:07 <+due> Swamp worms are *boring*.
13:07 <+due> Keskitalo: Both is good.
13:08 <+due> Keskitalo: Some people didn't know what the revision number was or how to look it up, though, and I've seen that a few times on the tracker.
13:08 <+due> Part of the issue also is that people still go "I have this issue with trunk" or "I am on CDO" and you have to  go looking to see what version on CDO they're using :)
13:08 <+due> It would be nice if we could get a custom, *required* field called "revision hash" or something, that could be set to N/A or so.
13:10 < st_> swamp could use more things that cause sickness/rot
13:11 < st_> ..but not death drakes :P 
13:11 <+due> It could also do with a considerably better layout generator.
13:12 <+greensnark> greater. swamp. dragons.
13:12 <+due> That'll never fly.
13:12 <+greensnark> :P
13:12 <+due> :D
13:13  * due wins tonight's pun award.
13:13 <+Keskitalo> due: The hash can be added to the folder name inside the zip on cdo/trunk, that's easiest to look up.
13:13 <+greensnark> The Jacqueline Carey LotR riff had an ancient dragon that lived in the swamp
13:13 <+greensnark> Banewreaker and Godslayer
13:13 <+due> Keskitalo: Good idea!
13:13 <+due> Keskitalo: All I've done now is included the hash in the reported version on the main page of the trunk.
13:14 <+greensnark> Swamp dragons, ultimate edition?
13:14 <+greensnark> Professional swamp dragons?
13:14 <+greensnark> Swamp dragon server
13:14 <+greensnark> "An enterprise swamp dragon comes into view."
13:14 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
13:15 <+due> We could just buff swamp dragons.
13:15 <+due> They're utterly boring.
13:15 < Mu_> swamp wyrm har har
13:16 <+Keskitalo> due: The players can also see it in the title bar of the window when the executable is launched. And that's what the trunk/index.html is saying.. I wonder if we can make that bit stand out a bit more.
13:16 <+Keskitalo> I distinctly recall making the index.html only suggest the 0.6.0-a1-number part to be reported though. Did somebody else tweak it? :D
13:17 <+Keskitalo> I figured that the hash is difficult for users, while devs could easily look up the hash for themselves (?), but that doesn't seem like such a good idea right now..
13:17 <+due> Keskitalo: I changed it earlier, sorry, I didn't realise there was an intent to it; I thought it was something that got missed in the svn->git change.
13:17 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:17 <+Keskitalo> due: That is good in the end though. :)
13:17 <+Keskitalo> I think I was wrong.
13:18 <+due> Yeah, I found it difficult to look up myself. :) The other option is to have a loookup chart on CDO that could be linked to from mantis...
13:19 <+Keskitalo> I bolded "hash" in "060-a1-number-hash" :)
13:19 <+due> :)
13:19 <+due> (Hooray for templates :D)
13:19 <+Keskitalo> (Yes, they're great!)
13:19 <+due> Sorry, I like to blow my own trumpet. ;)
13:20 <+Keskitalo> I'd like to make http://crawl.develz.org the official homepage of DCSS instead of SF.
13:20 <+due> I like the sound of that.
13:21 <+due> Doors having open and close events isn't an issue, is it?
13:21 <+due> Monsters currently get events whenever they move, so I didn't think so...
13:22 <+due> Argh.
13:23 <+due> I forgot to overwrite the "A monster opens the door" for cigotuvi.
13:23 <+due> Keskitalo: Oh!
13:23 <+due> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:blog:playtesting
13:24 <+due> Probably not the right namespace. :)
13:24 <+due> Eronarn: Please don't hurt me!
13:25 <+Keskitalo> Looks good. :)
13:25 <+due> I just need snappy names for them. :)
13:25 <+due> I'm thinking "alphabet soup" for the glyph changes.
13:26 <+due> oooh, "Leader of the Pack" works for slimes/uglies.
13:26 <+due> Alphabet Stone Soup!
13:30 <+due> "Hit Me With Your Dowsing Stick" :)
13:30 <+Keskitalo> "Dude, Where's My Smoke Demon?"
13:31 <+Keskitalo> or giant cockroach.
13:32  * due grins.
13:32 <+due> And of course, "The cake is a lie!" is a must for portal vaults.
13:32 <+Keskitalo> "New Attractions at the Dungeon Resort", whatever would be correct grammar?
13:33 < Mu_> for portal vaults title it 'Planning a vacation this spring?' and then write up rundown for each vault like it's a package holiday
13:33 <+Keskitalo> Yes, that exact idea. :)
13:33 <+due> <3
13:33 <+due> "Ideal Holiday Destinations!"
13:34 <+due> I'm still going to use The cake is a lie! for the title, but I'll use the holiday.
13:34 <+due> "Weather is reported to be a barmy thousand degrees in the Volcano! You'll surely get a tan, but maybe a little deeper than you bargained for."
13:35 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@166.205.137.26] has joined ##crawl-dev
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13:36 <+due> "Baileys prodive a quaint snapshot of what life might've been in an ancient castle. Ceremonial orcs and kobolds, in full regalia, provide an excellent verisimilitude!"
13:38 <+Keskitalo> Hee. :)
13:51 -!- by [n=rob@g225126178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:51 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ
13:51 <+due> Hey rob!
13:52 <+by> hi
13:52 < Henzell> by: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
13:52 <+by> !messages
13:52 < Henzell> (1/1) due said (11h 26m 55s ago): Yes, trog_book is always unreliable, I have no idea why. Nothing I could do seemed to fix it. However, I actually left the possibility of throwing an item on top of it. I'm not sure if this is desirable, though.
13:53 <+Keskitalo> Heya by!
13:53 <+by> due: I'm convinced that throwing items on top should not save the book
13:53 <+by> due: you're saying it was intentional?
13:54 <+due> by: It was, but dpeg said he didn't like it.
13:55 <+by> it feels very much like exploiting a bug to me
13:55 <+by> I thought it was actually a bug -- I'd have asked you first otherwise, sorry
13:56 <+due> No, noo, it's fine.
13:56 <+due> In retrospect, it didn't make any sense.
13:59 <+Keskitalo> due: re #439, I think the wiki page should be used.
14:00 <+due> Hm.
14:00 <+due> I'll delete the issue anyway, as it's superfluouss now.
14:01 <+due> I am still really against tormentors being upgraded to 2s.
14:01 <+Zaba_> it seems to me that a lot of things were upgraded to 2 lately
14:02 <+due> Yes, exactly.
14:02 <+Zaba_> there's just 5 '4's left
14:02 <+Keskitalo> I'm off. Cheers!
14:02 <+due> bye!
14:03 <+due> Zaba_: We needm more 4s.
14:03 <+due> I'd like a water 4.
14:03 <+due> But we need more water spells in that case.
14:04 <+Zaba_> there are 9 '1's, 7 '2's, 10 '3's, 5 '4's, 8 '5's
14:04 <+by> has deep water item behaviour been changed recently?
14:05 <+by> flying, I get "Things that are here: ..." when entering a cell, but "There are no items here." when trying to pick them up
14:05 <+by> but I'm playing an old version
14:08 <+due> Yes.
14:08 <+due> They should be hidden now, though.
14:18 <+due> They should be hidden now, though.
14:19 <+due> Echo.
14:19 <+due> Echo.
14:19 < Napkin> beep?
14:21 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r73fd97218337 /crawl-ref/source/command.cc: More dynamic command display in the command help, including vi movement.
14:21 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * ra68c22639f6f /crawl-ref/source/cmd-keys.h: In cmd-keys.h move vi keys further down, so they get listed in the help.
14:21 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rdd8ec1b5c6c6 /crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Also use key bindings in the tutorial help screen.
14:21 <+by> @?? merfolk impaler
14:21 < Gretell> merfolk impaler (m) | Speed: 10 (atk: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 60-108 | AC/EV: 0/18 | Damage: 26 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(48) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1076.
14:22 <+by> @?? siren
14:22 < Gretell> siren (m) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 65-104 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 10 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(121) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1339.
14:22 <+by> I've confused the two a number of times...
14:24 <+due> Hm.
14:25 <+due> greensnark: Ping.
14:27 <+due> Hey, now that's interesting.
14:31 <+by> due: what is?
14:32 <+due> I'm playing around with new Lua markers for the Iskenderun vault (want to prevent monsters from opening a door unless it's been previously opened by the player; combined with no_tele_into, this basically means the loot room won't be full of monsters once you wake them up).
14:33 <+due> But if you have two separate doors and do MARKER: + = lua:restrict_door(), oopening one treats the other as having been previously opened (and then closed again).
14:33 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:33 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
14:33 <+due> I'm sure there's a way to tell it to make a new marker for every instance...
14:33 <+due> Buut I can't remember how.
14:33 <@dpeg> Hi
14:33 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
14:33 <@dpeg> !messages
14:33 < Henzell> (1/1) greensnark said (1h 34m 55s ago): rob suggested randomly picking any two of Snake, Swamp and Shoals instead of a simple Swamp/Shoals tradeoff. What do you think?
14:33 <@dpeg> greensnark: here?
14:33 <+due> A lobster!
14:33 <+by> dpeg: hi, think greensnark is not here at the moment
14:34 <@dpeg> ah
14:34 <+due> Yeah.
14:34 <+by> due: sounds like by default those markers should be independent?
14:34 <@dpeg> by: 2 out of the 3 could be done
14:34 <+due> by: They should, but it's applying the same copy of the marker to each one...
14:34 <+due> Instead of a new one for each glyph.
14:34 <@dpeg> There are some reasons speaking for Shoals vs Swamp only, for example that having both puts much more emphasis on water.
14:35 <+due> dpeg: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:swamp_monsters
14:35 <@dpeg> due: later
14:35 <+due> That's fine, I'm off to bed shortly and wanted to link you now before I forgot. :)
14:35 <+by> dpeg: shoals and snake seem to be closer in difficulty and reward than either is to swamp
14:36 < syllogism> friendly monsters seem to cast Sleep at you rather than the target monster
14:36 <+due> syllogism: Really? Odd.
14:36 <+by> funny
14:37 <+due> Sleep specifically as in Aizul's spell, or sleep as in ensorcelled hibernation?
14:37 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rd70fef927f87 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/fungi_plants/bush.png: Replace the bush tile with a brighter version, also by purge.
14:37 < syllogism> aizul's Sleep
14:37 <+due> Bah. I thought I'd fixed that.
14:37 <@dpeg> by: Swamp < Shoals, Snake < Slime?
14:38 <+by> probably, yes
14:39 <+by> though please get some other opinions; I've only really been to the new shoals this game
14:39 <@dpeg> by: new stuff is always tough :)
14:40 <@dpeg> Trying to equalise Swamp, Shoals, Snake is fine with me, although we should probably wait until 0.7 with that (and do Swamp for that).
14:42 <@dpeg> due: great work on the change blogs
14:42 <+due> dpeg: Two things before I go to bed: I finished the latest play-testing post, and I think I've come up with a way to do Troves properly. I'll try and get that done tomorrow.
14:42 <+due> :)
14:42 <@dpeg> yippie!
14:43 <+due> dpeg: I've got a list of topics to revisit over the next few weeks, namely overflow temples, portal vaults, glyph changes... "Major" things (or at least, things people will probably notice the moost come 0.6).
14:43 <+due> We'll check teh tracker first, discarding runes; if we don't find anything nice, we'll go for player's equipment: robe of resistanc eor gda (+4 at least).
14:43 <+due> And if we're at a low level and they don't have a chance of getting one just yet, we can maybe ask for potions or consumables instead.
14:43 <@dpeg> yes, good stuff
14:44 <@dpeg> due: note that "expensive randart in a shop" qualifies as nice
14:44 <+due> The only really difficult part is the stash tracker. In the early-game, feeding it a high value will get you no results.
14:44 <+due> Unless they've found a nice randart in a shop :)
14:44 <+due> So, shops -> stash -> equipment -> consumables.
14:45 <@dpeg> yes
14:45 <@dpeg> that is good
14:45 <+due> Just need to be careful about information leak.
14:45 <+due> We won't take randarts from antique shops.
14:45 <@dpeg> well, I think it *would* be possible to shoot for the blue
14:45 <@dpeg> e.g. asking for a +4 Ice Dragon Mail even though there isn't any so far
14:46 <+due> Yeah, sure.
14:46 <+due> Ice dragon armour is usually considered pretty worthless, though.
14:46 <@dpeg> s/Ice/Gold/
14:46  * due nod.
14:46 <+due> Okay, I have to sleep!
14:46 <+due> Tomorrow, new item wrapper. :)
14:46 <@dpeg> good night!
14:46 <+due> And I might convert the current item wrapper to use userdata and tables instead of the current icky.
14:47 <@dpeg> greensnark would approve
14:47 <@dpeg> *will
14:47 <+due> Also, jpeg's ability to implement FRs even when the request is worded in hideous and demanding is amazing. :0
14:47 <+due> (I saw that vi-keys FR and was going to go and edit it, but then I saw that rob beat me to it.)
14:47 <@dpeg> due: I wanted to close it :)
14:48 <+due> I was debating deleting it. :0
14:48 <@dpeg> jpeg is a very calm person.
14:48 <+due> *:)
14:48 <@dpeg> She rarely understands when and why I get worked up :)
14:48 <+due> I got a bit stroppy with the "rargh Aizul killed me :((" thing, and a bit stroppy with the tormentors->2 thing.
14:49 <+due> Okay, I seriously will sleep now. And don't worry about Botono just yet!
14:52 <@dpeg> Napkin: there was a "Nobody" registering on CDO -- did you delete his account? I just wanted to, but it's gone already.
14:52 < Eronarn> due: hey, the blog thing is fine, by the way - I didn't anticipate there would be a need, the message you may have gotten was just default
14:52 < Henzell> Eronarn: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
14:52 < Eronarn> !messages
14:52 < Henzell> (1/1) Napkin said (3h 39m 57s ago): I upgraded the Wiki - please let me know if there are any errors :)
14:53 < Napkin> yeah, dpeg - it was a wrong email address - so I deleted him :)
14:53 < Napkin> Eronarn :)
14:53 < Napkin> I updated the wiki finally
14:54 < Eronarn> it's real annoying how it has those warnings for normal users, huh?
14:54 < Napkin> it doesn't have those warnings for normal users :)
14:54 < Eronarn> doesn't it? someone was complaining abou it earlier
14:54 < Eronarn> maybe they just had rights and didn't know it
14:54 < Napkin> "some dev", yes
14:55 <@dpeg> Napkin: thank you. That guy looked like a nuisance, didn't he?
14:56 < Napkin> anyways, the messages are good - keeps others reminding me to do the update. but it would have been nice, if one of the wiki users would have informed me at least about the published exploit to gain permissions.
14:56  * greensnark is back now.
14:56 < Napkin> wb greensnark :)
14:57 <+greensnark> Hiya Napkin :)
14:57 <@dpeg> oh, green is good
14:57 <+greensnark> green is always good
14:57 < Napkin> yes, I guess he was a spammer, dpeg :)
14:57 <+greensnark> Especially as a colour for snarks
14:57 <@dpeg> yes
14:57 <@dpeg> Napkin: Oh? I wasn't aware of any exploit.
14:58 < Napkin> it was mentioned in the top line of the three "please update" notices ;)
14:58 < Napkin> that one was new - so I hurried with the upgrade this morning
14:58 <@dpeg> ah, I see
14:58 <@dpeg> didn't properly read those, sorry
14:59 < Napkin> happens, don't worry
14:59 < Napkin> I'm checking on new versions about once a week
15:00 < Napkin> Eronarn - next time you are in the wiki - please keep an eye on the plugins whether they still work or not
15:00 <@dpeg> greensnark: ^^ I replied on Shoals / Swamp / Snake
15:00 <@dpeg> greensnark: to sum it up: can be done, although it'd be best to improve Swamp (layout-wise and xp wise), but let's reserve that for 0.7.
15:01 < Napkin> ShoalsSwampSnakeSlime - those S's are a coincidence, right?
15:01 <@dpeg> purely
15:01 <+greensnark> Yeah, Swamp needs help
15:01 < Eronarn> sure
15:01 <@dpeg> there will also be Spiders at some point
15:01 <+greensnark> Ssssspiders
15:01 <+greensnark> Or thpiderth
15:01 < Napkin> thank!
15:01 < Eronarn> snails!
15:01 < Eronarn> snorgs
15:01 <@dpeg> greensnark: there are plans for Swamp, at last
15:01 <@dpeg> and, not to forget: Snark
15:02 <+Zaba_> snarks!
15:02 <@dpeg> can get Snark instead of Slime
15:02 <+greensnark> Lorimer added snarks to Spork already :P
15:02 <@dpeg> oh, too bad
15:02 <+greensnark> A tribute, no doubt :P
15:02 <+Zaba_> then we'll have Sporks.
15:03 <@dpeg> good idea
15:03 <+Zaba_> a spork would look like a lightcyan H
15:04 <+Zaba_> it's a hybrid of a fork and a spoon, right?
15:04 <+Zaba_> it'd be like a dancing weapon but not as sharp
15:07 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:18 < AceTetra> you could have a snipe branch, with lots of centaur islands and stuff
15:20 < Napkin> mlua error: /crawl-svn-cd12798/dat/clua/lm_trig.lua:664: Too many vault items for item_pickup
15:20 < Napkin> -> Eifel
15:24 <+greensnark> How's this for an alternative swamp-like builder: http://sprunge.us/iebW
15:24 < Napkin> great!
15:25 <+greensnark> Napkin: Can you file a bug for the triggerable thing so due can look at it
15:25 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:25 < Eronarn> greensnark: That looks awesome... are the unattached #s trees or walls, though?
15:25 < purge> Hi
15:25 < Henzell> purge: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
15:25 < purge> !messages
15:25 < Henzell> (1/1) due said (9h 51m 30s ago): I failed utterly to do anything I liked  with Dowan and Duvessa... Want to have a go for me? Basically, Dowan wears red and black robes, Duvessa wears blue and black/whatever armour!
15:26 <+greensnark> Eronarn: They can be anything, right now they :)
15:26 <+greensnark> Er, they're deep water right now
15:26 <+greensnark> Damn keyboard
15:26 < Eronarn> oh, are the white areas shallow water? i assumed they were land
15:26 < Napkin> i think he just reported, will get his save
15:26 < TGW> I assume = is shallow and blank is land
15:27 < Henzell> TGW: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
15:27 < Eronarn> er
15:27 < Eronarn> got that mixed up
15:27 < TGW> uh what
15:27 < TGW> !messages
15:27 <+greensnark> White is land = is shallow
15:27 < Henzell> (1/1) AceTetra said (1h 57m 44s ago): 17x17. I was experimenting with a square viewport.
15:27 < TGW> guy's nuts
15:28 < Eronarn> greensnark: I actually think it would work better reversed (white=water), and maybe one more layer of tiles around the white sections
15:28 < Eronarn> and the #s more common and becoming trees
15:28 < Eronarn> the current layout loosk like something i would expect ouf of shoals
15:29 < Eronarn> if white = land
15:29 < TGW> yeah, that sort of makes sense
15:29 < TGW> deep water more centrally, shallow water take up a good deal of it, and a border of trees
15:33 < Napkin> why centrally?
15:33 < TGW> napkin: it's a swap
15:33 < Napkin> it's not a lake :-P
15:33 < TGW> swamp*
15:34 < TGW> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CypressSwamp.jpg
15:34 < TGW> one would imagine the swamp has an edge
15:36 < Eronarn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mangroves.jpg
15:36 < Eronarn> <3
15:37 < TGW> hell yeah
15:37 < TGW> quick, do turtles live in swamps?
15:37 < Eronarn> some turtles in some swamps, yes
15:38 < Eronarn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Florida_freshwater_swamp_usgov_image.jpg one like this, yes
15:38 <+greensnark> http://sprunge.us/GCKI
15:38 < Napkin> well, it's a swamp.. not a moor or mangroves
15:39 < TGW> greensnark: !
15:39 < Napkin> nice, greensnark 
15:39 < TGW> <3
15:39 < Eronarn> Napkin: there are such things as mangrove swamps :)
15:39 < Eronarn> also, that looks really nice
15:40 <+greensnark> Yay :)
15:41 < Eronarn> greensnark: note though that if trees are the barriers, trees need to be able to be paced on shallow water so that people can't start a forest fire and wait for the entire branch to burn down
15:41 <+greensnark> Trees are a feature :/
15:41 < Eronarn> greensnark: "mangrove" that when destroyed in any way leaves shallow water? :P
15:41 <+greensnark> Plants can stand in shallow water, but trees and shallow water are incompatible
15:42 < TGW> eronarn: the fire evaporates the water
15:42 < TGW> duh
15:42 <+greensnark> Although there could be a branch flag that says trees in the swamp always stand in shallow water
15:42 < Napkin> cool idea
15:42 < Eronarn> it'd also be nice if aquatic monsters could, when submerged, swim through mangroves
15:43 < TGW> eronarn: no
15:43 < Eronarn> TGW: swamp wormssssss
15:43 < Napkin> so.. trees can be burned??
15:43 < Eronarn> yes
15:43 < Eronarn> hit them with a strong enough fire attack and they will start to burn - and will ignite other trees
15:43 <+greensnark> And lightninged
15:44 < Napkin> wand of fire necessary, ja?
15:44 < Eronarn> i nearly killed myself that way
15:44 < Eronarn> it was pretty awesome
15:44 < Napkin> cool
15:44 < Eronarn> definitely recommend giving starting a fire a try just to see what it's like, in one of those huge vaults with pathways through the trees
15:44 < Napkin> so putting them on shallow water is to prevent the fire from spreading, yes?
15:44 < Eronarn> well, moreso that because of the way the fire spreads
15:45 < TGW> napkin: to prevent the branch from being completely lame once you burn the trees
15:45 < Eronarn> you could start a handful of fires around the edge of the level
15:45 < TGW> I think
15:45 < Eronarn> and there would be tons of dry land all over the place
15:45 < Eronarn> making clearing swamp trivial
15:49 < Eronarn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pneumatophore_overkill_-_grey_mangrove.JPG so coooool
15:49 <@dpeg> back
15:49 < TGW> dpeg: check greensnark's swamp
15:50 <@dpeg> greensnark: looks good -- again using heights?
15:50 <+greensnark> Yes
15:52 <@dpeg> greensnark: what do you think of having a boundary of trees, and then most water in the centre, so that the trees wouldn't form a rectangle
15:52 <@dpeg> do I make senseß
15:52 <@dpeg> ?
15:53 <+greensnark>         height >= 0 ? '7' :
15:53 <+greensnark> Er, sorry
15:53 <+greensnark> http://sprunge.us/GCKI has a tree boundary
15:54 <@dpeg> very nice
15:55 <@dpeg> greensnark: slightly unrelated, but I think I have an idea for how to make your cool Snake maps more symmetric with depth: the deeper you go, the more symmetric the local height maps should be, culminating in very circular/ellipsoid hills/valleys.
15:56 <+Zaba_> greensnark, that's a nice map
15:56 <+greensnark> Snake builder had lots of issues with wall arrangements
15:56 <+greensnark> Zaba_: Thanks ;0
15:56 <+greensnark> Er, :)
15:57 <+greensnark> Eronarn suggested changing the land/shallow water assignment, which makes it look much nicer
16:04 <+greensnark> dpeg: Can I put in this builder experimentally? :)
16:05 <+greensnark> And enable the 2-in-3 choice from Snake, Swamp, Shoals?
16:06 < TGW> did snake get a new layout?
16:06 <+greensnark> No
16:06 <+greensnark> I was just experimenting
16:09 < TGW> well, in the same way swamp has a new layout
16:09 < TGW> I'd love to see those experiments
16:13 <+greensnark> I don't have all the variants we tried the other day, but here's one: http://sprunge.us/NDYU
16:13 <+greensnark> The Snake map has problematic wallification
16:13 < TGW> yeah, there's a lot of diagonal holes
16:14 <+Zaba_> without those holes, it'd be awesome
16:14 -!- Zaba_ is now known as Zaba
16:22 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, you can
16:22 -!- eith [n=eith@86-40-245-49-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:23 <+greensnark> Ok, awesome
16:23 < TGW> <3
16:23 <+greensnark> I shall also re-enable Swamp
16:23 <@dpeg> greensnark: but you had a better Snake map last time
16:23 <@dpeg> with more corridors, all curved and thick
16:24 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yes, I don't have all the intermediate knobs I twiddled 
16:24 < TGW> I'll try the logs
16:24 <+greensnark> In either case the maps need postprocessing to fix up
16:24 <@dpeg> yes
16:25 <@dpeg> greensnark: again, it's not 0.6 stuff but if it's ready by then...
16:25 <+greensnark> Yeah, I need to poke at it sometime
16:25 <+greensnark> I wanted to try some alternative approaches to Snake
16:26 <+doy> swamp should be more random i think
16:27 < TGW> http://sprunge.us/ASbV 
16:27 < TGW> !
16:27 < TGW> and that looks great
16:32 < purge> well i finished my initial draft of Dowan/Duvessa
16:32 < purge> http://s153.photobucket.com/albums/s210/purge83/Crawl/?action=view&current=twins_ingame.png
16:32 <+doy> like use the height map stuff for water, but scatter the trees around randomly, maybe clumping them occasionally
16:33 < purge> !tell due http://s153.photobucket.com/albums/s210/purge83/Crawl/?action=view&current=twins_ingame.png
16:33 < Henzell> purge: OK, I'll let due know.
16:33 <+doy> also, weighting the height map chances so that deeper water is concentrated in the center would help
16:37 -!- dpeg_ [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:38 < dpeg_> hi again
16:39 <+doy> also, if we reuse the same map generator for shoals, swamp, and snake, we're probably going to want to come up with a bunch of alternatives too
16:39 < dpeg_> little daughter pulled a plug
16:39 <+doy> (:
16:39 <+doy> oops!
16:39 <+doy> (:
16:39 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@166.205.137.26] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:40 < dpeg_> doy: well, greensnark's map generator is more versatile than the other ones, I think
16:40 <+doy> yes, i agree
16:40 <+doy> but look at the variety of map generators we have for the dungeon currently
16:40 < dpeg_> time for Taek Won Do
16:40 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@166.205.137.26] has quit [Client Quit]
16:40 < dpeg_> later
16:40 -!- dpeg_ [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit [Client Quit]
16:41 <+greensnark> Tae kwon do lobster
16:43 < TGW> ogres should have racial slaying
16:44 < TGW> gravity, you see
16:44 < Eronarn> greensnark: Can we get a turtle unique?
16:45 < Eronarn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ograbme
16:48 < TGW> "ograbme" is silly
16:48 < Eronarn> you're silly >:[
16:50 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
16:50 < TGW> eronarn: fights against grey elven pirates?
16:50 < TGW> merchants, I guess
16:51 < Eronarn> TGW: unique turtle with patrolling AI, guards a shop
16:51 < TGW> eronarn: I like my idea better
16:51 < TGW> two stupid jokes at the same time!
16:51 < Eronarn> the shop can be run by grey elves
16:51 < TGW> ok :D
16:52 < Eronarn> in fact
16:52 < Eronarn> it can be a shopboat
16:52 < Eronarn> like a houseboat, but a shop
16:54 <+greensnark> Eronarn: due also wanted a turtle unique
16:54 <+greensnark> Probably not Ograbme though :P
16:54 < CIA-81> greensnark * rfc861cd85fb2 /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/branches.txt ng-init.cc travel.cc): Re-enable Swamp, randomly disable one of the Swamp, Snake Pit, or Shoals instead of flipping between Swamp and Shoals only (rob, dpeg).
16:54 <+greensnark> You should hash out the details with due
16:54 < TGW> "The year 2006 saw the snapping turtle declared the state reptile of New York by a sweeping vote of the New York Legislature after being popularly chosen by the state's public elementary school children."
16:54 < TGW> we have state reptiles?
16:55 < Eronarn> children: still smarter than adults
16:55 <+greensnark> TGW: I understood the NY senate is exceptionally rich in reptiles
16:55 < TGW> :P
16:56 < TGW> did you commit the swamp layout?
16:56 <+greensnark> No, I'm undecided
16:57 <+greensnark> I shall try it out in game and see if it looks ok
16:57 <+doy> greensnark: i don't really like the trees only being in smooth clumps
16:58 <+greensnark> We can add random clumps of trees
16:58 <+greensnark> I need to play with it in game and see if it feels right
16:58 <+doy> well, i don't really like the trees being in smooth clumps at all, mostly
16:58 <+doy> (:
16:58 <+doy> maybe could write a layout modifier that runs over the map and scatters them
16:59 <+greensnark> The border needs to be trees, but the edges can be as raggedy as needed
16:59 <+greensnark> Trouble is we'll need to fill in the holes around the edges anyway
16:59 <+doy> yeah
16:59 <+doy> well
16:59 <+greensnark> Which will reduce the raggedness
16:59 <+doy> if nothing else, we should add a border of 'deep forest' permarock
16:59 <+doy> since trees are destructible
17:00 <+greensnark> The outer edge is always indestructible
17:00 <+doy> ah, okay
17:00 <+greensnark> Ero suggested letting them become shallow water on destroyed
17:00 <+greensnark> *when destroyed
17:00 <+greensnark> So that the player doesn't create a safe margin near the edge
17:01 < Eronarn> note that this would also mean TONS of steam would be generated, wiht the way forest fires work
17:01 <+greensnark> Is that bad? :)
17:01 < Eronarn> no! it's good!
17:02 < syllogism> looking forward to some nice forest fire splats, though at that point the clouds are generally a non-threat
17:02 <+greensnark> Ugh, I have to do something about the Swamp:5 vault
17:03 <+greensnark> It assumes the current Swamp builder :P
17:03 < TGW> can you break undead swamp?
17:03 < TGW> please?
17:03 <+greensnark> syllogism: You'd have to be really trying hard to die to a forest fire :P
17:03 < syllogism> I'm up to the challenge :P
17:03 <+greensnark> syllogism: You'd have to be heteroy, in fact :P
17:03 <+doy> TGW: why would you do that d:
17:04 < TGW> greensnark: I will pay you to break undead swamp
17:04 < Eronarn> greensnark: what about making it do a normal swamp layout, then an old-swamp style region in the middle, then place the swamp vault in that
17:04 < Eronarn> i think that could look cool
17:04 < syllogism> maybe you could add some tree snakes :P
17:04 < Eronarn> also
17:04 < Eronarn> i wonder if the swamp vault could be trees instead of stone
17:04 < Eronarn> that could be really cool
17:05 < TGW> especially undead swamp
17:05 < Eronarn> especially if we allow clouds to pass through trees
17:05 < Eronarn> and by cool i mean "aaargh miasma"
17:05 <+doy> clouds should pass through trees
17:06 < Eronarn> doy: yes, and due's in favor as well iirc
17:06 < Eronarn> but i don't think they do yet
17:06 <+doy> yeah
17:06 <+greensnark> Trees are just combustible walls atm
17:07 < syllogism> no blinking past them either?
17:07 <+greensnark> Don't know if they block LOS
17:08 < syllogism> one doesnt
17:08 <+greensnark> Well, bushes are monsters
17:08 <+greensnark> Monsters made of concrete :)
17:09 <+greensnark> Although they burn prettily
17:09 < Eronarn> trees block LOS the way smoke/steam clouds do
17:09 < syllogism> looks like you can blink through them
17:09 < Eronarn> they block LOE (line of effect) the way walls do
17:10 < Eronarn> the disparity between trees/glass with blink is interesting, though
17:10 < syllogism> this is semi problematic with the current monster ai and especially semicontrolled blink
17:11 < syllogism> monsters dont know how to walk around a wall of trees at least if they can see you
17:12 < syllogism> you can dig paths with ood and disintegration
17:14 <+by> monsters have strange problems with pathfinding anyway, also with doors
17:14 <+doy> i've noticed monsters not being able to route around glass
17:14 <+doy> although i think someone mentioned that it depends on the monster intelligence
17:14 <+doy> the case i noticed was rats in the moth of wrath altar vault
17:15 <+by> it seems as thought monsters often head directly towards the foe's position, and not towards the last seen position
17:15 <+doy> yeah, there's that too
17:15 <+greensnark> If they went toward last seen position, that would make them much better at following through corners
17:15 <+greensnark> But it wouldn't help with glass
17:16 <+by> that's true
17:16 <+greensnark> Could just be more aggresssive with using pathfindng
17:16 <+doy> greensnark: well, it's more for situations where you go up a staircase and go down a different staircase, and the stuff that was clustered around the first one immediately heads toward your new location
17:17 <+doy> do monsters even keep track of "target's last seen location" though?
17:17 <+greensnark> Yeah, that would also be fixed by using the target
17:17 <+greensnark> doy: Yes
17:17 <+doy> ah, okay
17:17 <+greensnark> They used to, at least
17:18 <+doy> i've never looked at the monster ai code, it seems scary
17:18 <+doy> (:
17:18 <+greensnark> It's a mess :P
17:18 <+greensnark> The movement code particularly :P
17:25 < TGW> does anyone want to change centaurs for me?
17:25 <+doy> what do you mean by change?
17:25 < TGW> act:150%
17:25 < TGW> and give them an aux
17:25 <+doy> why?
17:25 < eith> your crazy, centaurs are fine
17:26 < syllogism> because it's one of the few monsters capable of killing the player, obviously
17:26 < TGW> hell, increase the damage too
17:26 <+doy> TGW: why?
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17:37 < TGW> because finding a centaur and getting shot twice immediately is a bad thing?
17:39 <+doy> it is?
17:39 < TGW> it isn't?
17:39 < eith> its part of centaurs, its been that way since the dawn of time
17:40 < eith> besides,you should have armour or stealth, or your playing a challenge race
17:40 <+doy> TGW: why is it?
17:40 <+doy> some monsters are dangerous
17:41 < TGW> doy: centaurs show up as early as D:1
17:41 < TGW> there is a good chance it will kill you
17:41 < eith> ridiculously rarely
17:41 <+doy> that's pretty incredibly rare
17:42 <+doy> !lg * killer=centaur place=d:1 cv>=0.4
17:42 < Henzell> 46. MUMMY the Insei (L1 SETm), shot by a centaur (arrow) on D:1 on 2010-01-08, with 22 points after 313 turns and 0:05:07.
17:42 <+doy> !lg * cv>=0.4
17:42 < TGW> !lg * killer=centaur place=D:2
17:42 < TGW> !lg * killer=centaur place=D:3
17:42 < Henzell> 366297. soldroz the Chiller (L1 DSIE), succumbed to poison on D:1 on 2010-01-16, with 24 points after 122 turns and 0:00:46.
17:42 < Henzell> 710. pukewolf the Chopper (L3 MDRe), mangled by a centaur on D:2 on 2010-01-16, with 155 points after 1381 turns and 0:07:16.
17:42 < Henzell> 682. Timbermaw the Slasher (L5 HuPa), worshipper of The Shining One, shot by a centaur (arrow) on D:3 on 2010-01-16, with 236 points after 3200 turns and 0:22:06.
17:43 < TGW> centaur lethality peaks at D:2
17:43 < syllogism> not really
17:43 < AceTetra> i wonder if that's true for kobolds too
17:43 < TGW> D:1 I'd imagine
17:43 < AceTetra> !lg * killer=centaur br=d s=place
17:43 < Henzell> 8432 games for * (killer=centaur br=d): 3021x D:5, 1547x D:6, 720x D:7, 710x D:2, 682x D:3, 574x D:4, 420x D:8, 200x D:9, 167x D:11, 123x D:1, 116x D:10, 65x D:12, 36x D:13, 24x D:14, 13x D:15, 8x D:16, 2x D:18, 2x D:17, 1x D:21, 1x D:19
17:43 < AceTetra> !lg * killer=kobold br=d s=place
17:44 < Henzell> 27246 games for * (killer=kobold br=d): 23146x D:1, 2890x D:2, 749x D:3, 260x D:4, 85x D:5, 48x D:6, 31x D:7, 16x D:8, 8x D:9, 6x Sewer, 3x D:10, 1x D:13, 1x D:14, 1x D:11, 1x D:12
17:44 < TGW> oh, that was weird
17:44 < AceTetra> ok then
17:44 <+doy> d:5 is about when centaur packs start showing up i think
17:44 < syllogism> not weird at all, d2 and d3 centaurs are just rarer
17:44 < TGW> what's D:3-4's problem
17:44 <+doy> d:3-4 is when there are still only single centaurs, but you're almost always equipped to deal with them
17:46 < AceTetra> most early levels aren't octagon levels, so you can usually lure it around a corner and get to melee range
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17:58 < Eronarn> centaurs should be changed primarily because fast-attacking monsters are generally stupid
17:58 <+doy> why?
18:00 < Eronarn> doy: it's added to raise difficulty without having to think about it
18:00 < Eronarn> "hmm this monster should be tough. better make it fast"
18:01 < eith> what about things like executioners?
18:01 <+doy> Eronarn: when has that happened?
18:01 <+doy> most monsters aren't fast, really
18:01 < Eronarn> doy: there are *human* uniques with >10 speed
18:01 < Eronarn> @??ancient lich
18:01 < Gretell> ancient lich (L) | Speed: 12 | HD: 27 | Health: 54-162 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Damage: 20(drain) | Flags: undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(504), fire, cold++, elec++, poison | XP: 10944 | Sp: b.cold, paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot, teleport self / b.draining, animate dead, summon undead, throw frost, crystal spear / b.fire, confuse, haste, b.draining, grea
18:01 < Eronarn> @??tormentor
18:01 < Gretell> tormentor (3) | Speed: 13 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 12/12 | Damage: 8, 8 | Flags: demonic, evil, fly | Res: magic(56), fire, poison | XP: 412 | Sp: pain, torment symbol.
18:01 < Eronarn> @??fire drake
18:01 < Gretell> fire drake (l) | Speed: 12 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 8 | Flags: fly | Res: magic(24), fire | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 182.
18:02 < Eronarn> "most" monsters aren't fast, but many of the speed 10 ones are stuff like orcs or ogres
18:03 < Eronarn> many hard monsters are, in fact, fast-attacking even if it makes no sense
18:03 < syllogism> "hmm this monster should be tough. better make it do a lot of damage"
18:03 <+doy> i still don't see why this is a bad thing
18:03 <+doy> fast monsters do provide an interesting challenge
18:03 <+doy> we also have monsters that aren't fast that provide an interesting challenge
18:03 < syllogism> you showed us some faster monsters, what does that have to do with anything
18:03 < Eronarn> doy: it's a bad thing because it makes monster damage variance even worse and is hard to predict unless you have spoilers and keep careful count
18:04 <+doy> Eronarn: that's just not true
18:04 <+doy> it's pretty easy to tell when something is a different speed than you
18:04 < Eronarn> doy: i'm talking about attacks only here
18:04 < Twinge-> Also monster centaurs and player centaurs are different speeds :P
18:04 < TGW> twinge-: they're close
18:04 < TGW> it's not like monster vs player naga
18:05 < TGW> 8 vs 6.sumtn
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18:05 <+doy> Eronarn: i don't understand the distinction you're trying to make
18:05 < TGW>   the +3 robe "Adoelun" (125 gold)     It affects your intelligence (+1).     It affects your accuracy (-1).     It protects you from negative energy.     It makes you much less stealthy. 
18:05 < TGW> wrong channel
18:05 < Eronarn> doy: if you're standing next to a speed 15 monster it will attack once
18:05 < Eronarn> then attack twice
18:05 < Eronarn> and so on
18:06 < syllogism> or hit for 40, then hit for 1
18:06 < Eronarn> now do this for a speed 17 or 14 or whatever one
18:06 <+doy> Eronarn: yes, this is necessarily true in a turn-based game
18:06 <+doy> knowing the exact speed isn't important
18:07 < Eronarn> doy: it's only true for monsters that attack more or less often than you, and knowing the exact speed is potentially *very* important so you can figure out whether you're going to be attacked once or twice
18:07 < syllogism> monster damage variance is huge regardless
18:07 < syllogism> it doesnt matter whether you are going to be attacked once or twice
18:07 < Eronarn> syllogism: yes, this issue doesn't cause monster damage variance, it just exacerbates it
18:07 < syllogism> the damage does
18:07 < Eronarn> being attacked twice vs. once is related to, but not the same as, taking damage
18:08 <+doy> Eronarn: so your suggestion is... what, that almost everything should be speed 10?
18:08 <+doy> this seems unnecessarily limiting in setting up challenges
18:09 <+doy> i think a better option (something that i've been advocating for years) would be to remove the predictive aspect by making all actions take a slightly randomized amount of delay
18:09 < Twinge-> I think he just wants less reliance on it for difficulty, and when it is used for it to usually make sense
18:09 < TGW> doy: attack speeds should more often be rounded to nice numbers, because anything else increases the variance severely
18:09 <+doy> TGW: i don't know what round numbers have to do with anything
18:10 <+doy> other than "they are easier for players to predict"
18:10 <+doy> which i think is a flawed concept to begin with
18:10 < ogaz> why?
18:10 < TGW> doy: and is that a bad thing?
18:10 < syllogism> relies on spoiler information
18:10 <+doy> yeah
18:10 <+doy> what syllogism said
18:10 < TGW> moving from "extremely hard to predict" to "able to predict with a bit of observation?"
18:10 < syllogism> no
18:10 <+doy> randomizing it so that it's impossible to predict anyway would be a better option
18:11 <+pointless_> !source _monster_add_energy
18:11 < TGW> syllogism: what are you saying?
18:11 < Twinge-> The concept of randomizing it seems awkward to me
18:11 < Henzell> Lines pasted to http://pastebin.com/ma19682e
18:12 <+pointless_> Interestingly there is a comment saying monster energy should be randomized, but it doesn't look like the code actually randomizes it
18:12 <+doy> pointless_: well, i was talking about for energy use, rather than energy gain
18:12 <+doy> but yeah, something like that would be helpful
18:12 <+doy> (it would also have the side effect of eliminating pillar dancing)
18:12 <+pointless_> What's the functionally difference between randomizing use vs. randomizing gain?
18:12 <+doy> pointless_: there might not be, shrug
18:12 <+doy> (:
18:13 < TGW> doy: suddenly, orc warriors hit 80 damage in a turn!
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18:14 <+doy> TGW: orc warriors attack slowly anyway, i think?
18:14 <+doy> with weapons that do that much damage anyway
18:14 <+doy> i could be wrong
18:14 < TGW> don't really know
18:14 <+doy> ogres do, at least
18:14 < TGW> I'm mostly berserked or conjuring when I take them out, due to a combination of nastiness and what I play
18:15 < ogaz> orc warriors usually attack slowly, but sometimes they have silly weapons like short swords
18:15 < TGW> well, something like a komodo then
18:15 < Eronarn> oh my god no
18:15 < Eronarn> randomizing it is a horrible idea
18:15 < Eronarn> what is wrong with you
18:16 < TGW> eronarn: you're not helping
18:16 <+doy> making it predictable is a horrible idea
18:16 <+doy> what is wrong with you
18:16 <+doy> d:
18:16 < Eronarn> also yes doy, nearly everything *should* be speed 10
18:16 <+doy> Eronarn: that's pretty boring
18:16 < eith> oO
18:16 < TGW> doy: point is, it doesn't matter how little the bits of energy are, because every time they save enough up you're fucked in a single turn
18:16 < Eronarn> don't think of speed 11+ as "moves faster", think of it as bullet time from the matrix. because that's what it is
18:17 <+doy> Eronarn: what?
18:17 < TGW> variance is pretty big already, but you're doubling the maximum every time you exceed 10 speed
18:17 < syllogism> nearly everything is 10 or less
18:18 <+doy> TGW: well, i'm pretty entirely against all these efforts to reduce variance
18:18 < syllogism> you arent doubling the maximum
18:18 < Eronarn> syllogism: there are many, many things that arbitrarily have >10 speed
18:18 <+doy> it's been happening pretty steadily over the past few years
18:18 < syllogism> everything is arbitrary then
18:18 < TGW> doy: well, damage is variant
18:18 < syllogism> you keep saying that
18:19 < syllogism> is this some sort of realism argument
18:19 < syllogism> "ancient liches can't realisticially be speed 12"
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18:20 <+doy> Eronarn: what do you mean by the distinction between moving faster and bullet time
18:20 <+doy> i don't understand that at all
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18:21 < Eronarn> doy: ok, take a centaur. PC centaurs cover the ground quickly - they can sometimes move a tile and not have it take time
18:21 < Eronarn> monster centaurs move faster in all actions
18:21 <+doy> Eronarn: that's not how it works at all
18:21 < Eronarn> doy: well, vs. a speed 10 opponent it is, anyways
18:22 <+doy> Eronarn: this is a necessary part of a turn-based game
18:22 < Eronarn> untrue
18:23 < CIA-81> greensnark * rc0aa968809c8 /crawl-ref/source/ (10 files): Experimental level builder changes for Swamp.
18:24 <+doy> Eronarn: going to explain, or just leave it at 'untrue'?
18:25 < Eronarn> doy: What's there to explain?
18:26 <+doy> are you saying "untrue" because the way to make it unnecessary is for everything to be the same speed?
18:26 < Eronarn> i'm saying it's untrue because it's an untrue statement
18:26 < Eronarn> it is not a necessary part of a turn-based game in any way
18:26 < Eronarn> *movement* isn't even a necessary part of a turn-based game
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18:26 < Eronarn> even confining it to roguelikes, it's not at all necessary
18:27 <+doy> *of a turn-based game with actors who have different movement rates
18:27 < Eronarn> even confining it to crawl, it's not at all necessary for it to work like it does currently
18:27 <+doy> i thought that was implied
18:27 < Eronarn> doy: sure, but i don't have a problem with this happening when things are moving
18:27 < Eronarn> i am fine with there being fast-movement monsters
18:27 < Eronarn> my problem is exclusively with fast-attacking
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18:27 <+doy> ...i don't see the difference
18:28 < Eronarn> doy: okay, take a wolf - it clearly makes sense for them to be able to outrun a human
18:28 < Mu_> why can pan lords be silenced?
18:28 < Eronarn> movement speed covers this fine
18:28 < ogaz> Mu_: they can? really?
18:28 < Eronarn> sometimes, they will be able to move twice when a human was only able to move once
18:28 < ogaz> wow
18:29 < Eronarn> however, because they have a high speed, they also *attack* faster
18:29 < Mu_> these random ones are being silenced
18:29 < Eronarn> there is no problem with things outrunning the player, but there is a problem with things that act at a different rate than the player on a very fundamental level
18:30 < Eronarn> anything with speed >10 is partially hasted, all the time
18:30 < Eronarn> they only actually move as fast as a human, but they move through time faster
18:30 < Eronarn> resulting in them moving faster, attacking faster, casting faster, picking up items faster, whatever
18:31 < Eronarn> relying on speed>10 to indicate fast movement, or to make a monster more dangerous, is lazy design
18:32 < Mu_> is this a bug?
18:33 < TGW> ??silence
18:33 < Henzell> silence[1/4]: Kills all sound within 6 spaces, mostly this means no spellcasting.  All Gw*8z; and demons are unaffected, as are spit and breath spells. In the books of Charms and Sky.
18:33 < TGW> are pan lords demonic?
18:33 < eith> you would imagine it is, you cant silence demons like, and pan lords are pretty demonic?
18:33 <+greensnark> Pan lords should not be silenced, it is a bug
18:33 < Mu_> @??pandemonium lord
18:33 < Gretell> pandemonium lord (&) | Speed: 9-17 | HD: 13 | Health: 116-232 | AC/EV: 14/15 | Damage: 49 | Flags: demonic | Res: magic(26), elec, poison | XP: 5027 | Sp: (random).
18:33 < ogaz> (other than Geryon)
18:34 <+greensnark> Geryon isn't a pan lord :)
18:34 <+greensnark> And yeah, he has a special case for the horn
18:36 <+greensnark> For some reason they're not getting the spellcaster flag
18:37 <+greensnark> Oh, my bug, apparently :P
18:37 < Mu_> :s
18:37 < Mu_> i thought missing the spellcaster flag is what made them immune
18:38 <+greensnark> No, missing the actual_spells and priest flags makes them immune
18:38 <+greensnark> But they do need the spellcaster flag :P
18:38 < Mu_> oh ok ;-)
18:38 <+greensnark> It's quite confusing :P
18:39 < TGW> spellcaster is for trog?
18:40 <+greensnark> No, spellcaster was originall just intended to indicate spells and spell-like abilities
18:40 <+greensnark> Trog also looks at m_actual_spells
18:40 < CIA-81> greensnark * r888b4555a4ce /crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Fix pan lords being silenceable (Mu).
18:40 < TGW> ..wot
18:40 < TGW> what use is spellcaster then?
18:40 <+greensnark> M_SPELLCASTER is pretty useless now
18:40 <+greensnark> But until recently it was necessary for the monster to be able to cast at all
18:41 <+greensnark> And it still has some corner cases where it's necessary, as we've seen :)
18:41 <+greensnark> It should be removed, but /me is too tired.
18:41  * greensnark goes off to bed.
18:41 < Mu_> night greensnark
18:42 < TGW> night
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18:45 < ogaz> sleep well
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18:47 < Napkin> should the 6 centauers have seen me, after I read scroll of fog with resulting fog all around me?
18:51 < Napkin> thanks @ dispersal for teleporting me out of the fog \o/
18:51 < TGW> ##crawl is that tway
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19:17 < Eronarn> http://magiccards.info/scans/en/rav/139.jpg <--- Arcane archer in action.
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19:17 < TGW> shooting himself in his head?
19:18 < TGW> yeah we need that spell
19:19 < Eronarn> TGW: every time you cast bone shards it's a bit like killing yourself, slowly
19:19 < TGW> maybe bone shards should make special arrows
19:20 < TGW> or darts
19:20 < Eronarn> TGW: there's a SF FR with proposals for it
19:20 < TGW> don't talk about SF
19:20 < Eronarn> one is that it makes a spray effect of dart-equivalent
19:20 < Eronarn> possibly in a cone
19:24 < TGW> eronarn: nec/sum: cauldron dance
19:25 < ogaz> ice/nec: ice cauldron
19:25 < TGW> def
19:26 < TGW> oh my god, we need an evocable ice cauldro
19:26 <+doy> why did eifeltrampel just get an empty zig level
19:26 < TGW> n
19:26 <+doy> with only loot
19:27 < TGW> like
19:27 < TGW> delayed fireball but with any spell
19:27 < Eronarn> TGW: cauldron dance would rule if it used the proposed list of things you've killed
19:27 < Eronarn> and the proposed dancing of dancing weapons
19:28 < ogaz> ench: humility
19:28 < Eronarn> ogaz: DOVESCAPE.
19:28 < TGW> see also: opalescence
19:28 < TGW> eronarn: so, silence but AWESOME
19:28 < Eronarn> yes
19:29 < Eronarn> it would be a good tmut equivalent to silence
19:30 < TGW> mal: word of command
19:33 < ogaz> FR: a unique that's like volrath's shapeshifter
19:35 < Eronarn> ogaz: Unstable Shapeshifter might work better
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19:35 < TGW> escaped shapeshifter?
19:36 < TGW> steals all your enchantments
19:38 < TGW> and resistances
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19:42 < Eronarn> TGW: that would actually be a really awesome thing for giant orange brains
19:42 < Eronarn> if they could use your own spells against you
19:43 < TGW> L9 nec/air/coj: plague wind
19:43 < Eronarn> plague wind was one of the names i was considering for a new spell, yeah
19:45 <+doy> would be a bit overpowered, i think
19:45 <+doy> (:
19:45 < TGW> perhaps :P
19:45 < TGW> fixedart: jitte
19:45 < Eronarn> doy: probably not, honestly
19:45 < Eronarn> a three-school L9?
19:45 < Eronarn> that presumably won't work on demons or undead, in crawl
19:46 <+doy> instant kill though
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19:46 < Eronarn> TGW: i would actually really love to see some weapon in crawl that is charged up - other than the sword of power, i mean
19:46 < TGW> could make it hellfire
19:46 < Eronarn> doy: if someone wants to raise nec/air/conj enough to cast a L9 spell is it really a problem to give them an instakill on anything living?
19:47 < TGW> hmm, nonartifact might be a closer analogue to "living"
19:47 <+Zaba> yes, the problematic bit being "instakill"
19:47 < Eronarn> Zaba: well, it could just be 'a ton of damage' and not technically an instakill... but seriously, imo the only thing even questionable there is like
19:47 < Eronarn> golden dragons
19:47 < Eronarn> the most powerful uniques
19:48 < TGW> trj
19:48 <+doy> most of zot
19:48 < Eronarn> a L9 tri-school spell is literally the most difficult to cast spell in the game
19:48 <+Zaba> I think that there are enough mostly unused spells right now, no need to add more.
19:48 < TGW> people might brill it up and cast it
19:48 < TGW> dunno
19:48 < Eronarn> TGW: brill is being removed afaik
19:48 < ogaz> the most dangerous stuff in zot is nonliving
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19:48 < Eronarn> Zaba: yeah it definitely should not be added with the current magic system
19:48 < ogaz> brill?
19:49 < Eronarn> we do need more spells in general though
19:49 < TGW> -iant
19:49 < Eronarn> once we get spells working
19:49 < Eronarn> TGW: -iance
19:49 < ogaz> ah
19:49 < TGW> brilliance makes brilliant
19:49 < Eronarn> but it doesn't cause glow :)
19:49 < Eronarn> (that would be an interesting drawback, actually)
19:49 <+doy> weren't you the one arguing against puns?
19:49 < TGW> moat
19:49 <+doy> d:
19:50 < Eronarn> doy: only when they're bad puns, there only to be annoying, or have non-intuitive consequences
19:50 < Eronarn> good: boring beetle. it's a boring monster, and it also bores
19:50 < TGW> bad: conversation
19:50 < Eronarn> bad: bipolar bear proposal, to make bears berserk
19:50 < Eronarn> bad: controlled flight, because running away can be composed of so many things
19:51 -!- Adeon [n=mikko@romeo-15.srv.hosting.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:52 < Eronarn> brilliance works because Glow is a magical status effect, several potions already cause glow, and it's already used as balancing on powerful effects
19:52 < TGW> is brilliance overpowered or something?
19:53 <+doy> yeah, i was going to ask that next
20:01 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Reconnecting…"]
20:01 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:01 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v pointless_] by ChanServ
20:01 -!- by [n=rob@g225124162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
20:02 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-160-26.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:11 < purge> how does the cloud trail on iood work?
20:12 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@166.205.137.244] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:14 < TGW> clarify?
20:17 < purge> does it fade out, or is it random clouds or what?
20:17 < purge> cause i am making tiles for it
20:17 < TGW> it's a fruit salad of coloured smoke
20:17 < purge> wish the tiles people were around for opinions!
20:18 < purge> i just created these for iood in tiles:
20:18 < purge> http://s153.photobucket.com/albums/s210/purge83/Crawl/?action=view&current=iood_strip.png
20:20 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-162-203.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
20:43 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."]
20:59 -!- B0RG1N [n=brgn@166.205.137.244] has quit ["Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi"]
20:59 <+doy> !lg * ktyp=winning race=mu min=turn
20:59 < Henzell> 47. hyperbolic the Destroyer (L22 MuAE), worshipper of Sif Muna, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2009-10-25, with 1518503 points after 65633 turns and 12:44:40.
21:06 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-163-105.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:07 < TGW> uh
21:07 < TGW> elly: rax: violetj: check ##crawl
21:07 <@elly> I don't have ops there
21:07 < TGW> oops
21:08 <@elly> Napkin: ##crawl needs help
21:08 <@elly> aha, freenode ops got it
21:08 < syllogism> some op is working on it
21:09 -!- Kyrris [n=1@c-67-186-34-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:09 < Kyrris> Jesus/
21:09 < Kyrris> It's ugly in there.
21:09 < TGW> yeah but so are you
21:11 < MarvinPA> oh bah
21:11 < MarvinPA> i can't talk in ##crawl now, i should really get my nick registered
21:13 <@elly> yes you should
21:13 < MarvinPA> it's held by someone who hasn't used it in over a year apparently
21:13 <@elly> Napkin: I don't suppose you feel like opping a couple of other people in ##crawl?
21:13 <@elly> MarvinPA: you can ask freenode staff to drop it
21:14 < TGW>  /msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER TGW pkgfwwlljibb
21:14 < TGW> hahahaha
21:14 < MarvinPA> aha ok
21:14 < MarvinPA> oh, nice one :P
21:14 < TGW> who put that space there
21:14 < TGW>  /msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER TGW pkgfwwlljibb
21:14 < TGW> uh
21:14 < Eronarn> TGW: brilliance is theoretically overpowered, but nobody's put it into practice yet afaik
21:14 < Eronarn> it's really hard to
21:14 < TGW> eronarn: how?
21:15 < Napkin> thanks elly :)
21:15 < Eronarn> TGW: the boost you get from it is staggeringly huge
21:15 < Napkin> wouldn't have seen it hadn't you hilighted my nick :)
21:15 < TGW> eronarn: so you can cast ood spells
21:15 <@elly> Napkin: :P
21:15 < TGW> for like what, 20 turns?
21:15 <@elly> Napkin: make your client annoy you when someone says '!ops' in a channel you have ops in
21:16 < Eronarn> TGW: yeah, that's why nobody's done it yet... rare potion, can only use the spell with the potion, it takes up a ton of slots because it's a high level spell, still has big hunger and MP use
21:16 < TGW> eronarn: you'd probably have to use a potion just to mem it
21:16 < Eronarn> yep
21:16 < TGW> at any point it'd be OP
21:16 < Napkin> why !ops ?
21:16 < TGW> obviously, invocable brilliance would be insane
21:16 < TGW> but hey, sif muna isn't okawaru
21:16 < Eronarn> that's why i say theoretically
21:17 < Eronarn> i can envision situations where it would be nuts broken, but they'd be so hard to set up in an actual game
21:17 < Eronarn> there is also the upper limit on it - there is no high level spell better than firestorm
21:18 < Eronarn> so if you didn't need the full potion effects to be able to cast firestorm, then it's just more useful to wear some armor too, but you can't swap armor as easily as drinking a potion
21:19 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:19 < Ashenzari> Demon-summoning spellcasters should band with demons (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=445) by nrook
21:19 < Ashenzari> Targeting beam disappears after [V] (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=444) by Core Xii
21:19 < Ashenzari> Error: Too many vault items for item_pickup (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=442) by Eifeltrampel
21:19 < Ashenzari> Allow player ghosts to fire missile weapons (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=443) by Porkchop
21:21 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-160-26.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [No route to host]
21:29 <+doy> mislead should be a sif wrath effect
21:29 < TGW> permanent misleading would be cool
21:30 < syllogism> make it a mutation
21:31 < syllogism> should be popular
21:31 <+doy> heh
21:36 <+kilobyte> http://nethack.angband.pl/permhal.patch
21:37 <+kilobyte> (meant to be a crude apply-ascend-unapply thingy)
21:45 -!- Noeda [n=mikko@romeo-15.srv.hosting.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:47 -!- Noeda [n=mikko@romeo-15.srv.hosting.fi] has quit [Client Quit]
21:51 < Kyrris> Mislead?
21:51 <+doy> ??mislead
21:51 < Henzell> mislead[1/1]: While affected by this status, monsters will appear to be other monsters in glyph, name and tile. It is temporary and purely cosmetic. It is blocked by clarity, removed by rain and potions of healing.
21:55 < Kyrris> Ah.
21:55 < Kyrris> Illusionists had a spell like that in a MUD I played.
21:55 < Kyrris> It was... awkward.
21:56 <+doy> xom should mislead you sometimes too
21:57 <+doy> and if he's feeling particularly mean, it should be permanent and non-cosmetic (for monsters in los)
21:57 <+doy> (:
22:02 < TGW> so, poly
22:02 <+doy> sure, but with the message for mislead
22:02 <+doy> (:
22:03 < TGW> maybe xom should make anagrams out of your messages
22:05 < TGW> you hit the giant eyeball -> yeti hotel belaying a hut
22:17 < Kyrris> Is there any way to separate entering commands from entering text in a search box, using keymapping?
22:18 < syllogism> Just read eronarn's further comments re: monster speed - pretty awful
22:18 <+pointless_> Kyrris: use ~m
22:18 < Kyrris> No, because that follows transitive property.
22:19 <+pointless_> I guess I don't understand what your problem is
22:19 < Kyrris> So if I macro hjklyubn, I lose movement options.
22:19 < Kyrris> Problem is it has to be keymapping.
22:19 <+pointless_> What are you trying to do?
22:20 < Kyrris> Disable vi keys while losing as little functionality as possible otherwise.
22:20 < MarvinPA> i think an option for that got added, didn't it?
22:21 < MarvinPA> unless it's not on cdo yet
22:21 < Kyrris> It wasn't when I checked.  And if that text file is just a keymapping, then it's not going to be any different than what I've done.
22:22 < MarvinPA> Add pseudocommand CMD_NO_CMD_DEFAULT for overriding the vi keys.
22:22 < MarvinPA>     CMD_NO_CMD is handled specially in many different ways, but
22:22 < MarvinPA>     the new command's sole purpose is to allow key bindings involving invalid
22:22 < MarvinPA>     commands, so as to override the vi keys for players who don't need them,
22:22 < MarvinPA>     don't want to replace them with other keys, but are worried about typos
22:22 < MarvinPA>     making their character walk into a fatal ambush.
22:22 < MarvinPA> so presumably that would fix your problem
22:22 < syllogism> added despite your whine fr
22:22 < syllogism> whiny
22:23 < Kyrris> I made a request.  It was filled.
22:23 < Kyrris> I'm grateful.
22:23 < Kyrris> I'm not sure how seriously to take you.
22:24 <+Keskitalo> Eronarn: I got a boring beetle in the middle of a yak pack recently; I was trying to camp in a corridor but the beetle spoiled my plans. Not boring I say! :)
22:24 < Kyrris> Thanks for looking that up, MarvinPA, but it appears to be just another thing to map keys to.  I'll just copy/paste when I need to search.
22:25 < MarvinPA> hmm ok
22:25 <+doy> Kyrris: what are you asking, exactly
22:25 < MarvinPA> so if you map hjkl etc to that, does search not work?
22:26 <+doy> did jpeg's patch not cover what you want to do?
22:26 < Kyrris> I'm asking if there's something I can do with keymapping that will stop hjlkyubn movement, but let me enter them when searching for items.
22:26 < Kyrris> Something -I- can do.
22:26 < purge> Keskitalo: is it possible to implement animations like this for iood:
22:26 < purge> http://s153.photobucket.com/albums/s210/purge83/Crawl/?action=view&current=iood_strip.png
22:26 <+doy> Kyrris: did jpeg's patch not cover what you want to do?
22:27 < Kyrris> I tried putting an include= line in my crawl.rc, it said it couldn't find the file.
22:27 < Kyrris> So I don't know.
22:27 < Kyrris> I could have done it wrong.
22:27 < syllogism> so you are saying it doesn't do what you wanted it do, but you haven'tr teid it?
22:27 < Napkin> include on cdo?
22:27 < syllogism> tried*
22:27 < Kyrris> I'm pretty sure you're just being a dick now, syllogism.
22:28 <+Keskitalo> purge: Unlike what people seem to think, I don't know much about tiles *code* ;) But; the first few frames look like clouds in different states of expiration; that is in the game.
22:28 < Kyrris> Which is out of place.  I'm requesting information, not work, and I'm not trying to say anyone is obligated to help me.
22:28 <+Keskitalo> purge: What should happen in/with the last four frames?
22:28 < purge> i was thinking it would be an animation loop
22:29 < purge> of the "power" in the orb pulsating bigger and smaller
22:29 <+Keskitalo> There's "animations" in tiles, like water moving, when the screen is refreshed, i.e. you move a cursor or spend a turn.
22:29 < Kyrris> Just include = no_vi_command_keys.txt?
22:29 < Kyrris> Because I did try that.
22:29 <+Keskitalo> purge: Yeah, that should work, in the manner I described.
22:29 < Kyrris> Huh.  Must have been before the update.
22:29 < purge> Keskitalo: the only question is how exactly clouds work in iood and how many frames i need
22:30 < Kyrris> jpeg's patch appears to have been a perfect solution, whatever he did.  Thanks, doy.
22:30 < Napkin> she did ;)
22:30 < Kyrris> Noted.
22:31 < Napkin> the include line is working now, yes?
22:31 < Kyrris> Yes.
22:31 < Napkin> great
22:31 < Kyrris> I must have tried it before it made it to the server.
22:31 < Napkin> possible
22:33 <+Keskitalo> purge: I haven't yet checked out iood myself..
22:33 < purge> Keskitalo: due might know he should be around in a couple hours probably
22:34 < purge> I made dowan and duvessa for him:
22:34 < purge> http://s153.photobucket.com/albums/s210/purge83/Crawl/?action=view&current=twins_ingame.png
22:34 <+Keskitalo> iood is also kilobyte's handiwork; he'll know too :)
22:35 < TGW> D&D should wear matching outfits
22:35 < purge> TGW: not according to due
22:35 < TGW> yeah :[
22:35 <+Keskitalo> purge: Those look nice! I know he was not satisfied what he could come up with in the doll editor himself. I'd prefer variations of the deep elf monster tiles (for consistency), but those do look nice anyhow.
22:36 < TGW> are the twins supposed to be DE?
22:36 <+Keskitalo> purge: I would be that the iood clouds are just oridinary clouds for functionality (and dispersing behaviour), so you can check out the other cloud tiles, how many frames there are for them.
22:36 < Kyrris> TGW: Yes.
22:36 <+Keskitalo> TGW: I recall they are Deep in the descriptions. Or somewhere else.
22:37 < purge> yeah those ARE deep elves :)
22:37 < purge> just like when the player chooses to play a deep elf
22:37 <+Keskitalo> purge: I'm not sure if the current animations support a sequence of frames, like 1-2-3-4-3-2-1, or are all the frames interchangeable (so it can pick randomly between them).
22:37 < purge> actually, i used high elf but i don't think you can tell the difference
22:37 <+Keskitalo> purge: jpeg knows, you could mail the list :)
22:37 <+Keskitalo> purge: hehe :)
22:38 < purge> Keskitalo: i'll get dues opinion i'll get him to check the code maybe :)
22:38 <+Keskitalo> purge: Thanks for all the tiles! :)
22:38 < purge> yeah well i am bored lately :)
22:42 < Napkin> Hey Keskitalo :)
22:44 <+Keskitalo> Hi Napkin!
22:56 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:56 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
22:56 < Napkin> Nabend dpeg!
22:56 <@dpeg> Hallo!
22:56 < Napkin> Hi :)
22:56 <@dpeg> Grad vom Sport zurueck
22:57 < Napkin> iiieh ;>
22:57 <@dpeg> Yes, kicking around :)
22:57 < Napkin> that sounds better :D
23:04 < Eronarn> syllogism: why do you feel they're awful
23:15 < Ashenzari> Sixfirhy tile submission (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=446) by Porkchop
23:17 <+due> hi
23:17 < Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
23:17 <+due> !mmessages
23:17 <+due> !messages
23:17 < Henzell> (1/1) purge said (6h 44m 22s ago): http://s153.photobucket.com/albums/s210/purge83/Crawl/?action=view&current=twins_ingame.png
23:17 <@dpeg> due: Morning!
23:17 <+due> Hi!
23:19 <+due> did I miss much?
23:20 <+due> !tell purge Your efforts, as usual, far surpass mine!
23:20 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let purge know.
23:20 < syllogism> Eronarn: because you make a meaningless distinction between speed and other monster attributes, bring up "realism" and vacuously accuse of "lazy design"
23:20 < Napkin> Moin Due! :)
23:21 < syllogism> basically the only real argument against fast monsters is "player can't easily predict how much damage they'll do next turn"
23:21 < Napkin> !send due hot coffee
23:21 < Henzell> Sending hot coffee to due.
23:21 < syllogism> which is also an argument for having such monsters
23:23 <@dpeg> +1
23:24 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r4797da8a59e7 /crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Specialcase mimics and dancing weapons in tilenum initialisation.
23:24 <@dpeg> borsuk pointed out that slow monsters are generally uninteresting
23:24 <+due> What do we have issues with?
23:24 < TGW> syllogism: player can easily predict it, but only with spoilers and knowledge of game mechanics, or unrealistic amounts of close observation
23:24 <@dpeg> in the context of water creatures
23:24 <+due> dpeg: We need more slow but action speed 10 monsters.
23:24 <@dpeg> might be good to look at monster speeds again, from a strict gameplay POV
23:24 < TGW> variability isn't an issue of prediction, but a gameplay thing
23:24 < syllogism> tgw: "easily"
23:25 <@dpeg> e.g.: how to make snails interesting
23:25 < Eronarn> syllogism: it's not a meaningless distinction at all and there is nothing wrong with including realism in a game, though games tend to suck when it's the sole concern
23:25 < TGW> syllogism: counting turns
23:25 < Ashenzari> Angel Improvement tile submission (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=447) by Porkchop
23:25 < TGW> speed 12 is easy, speed 13 takes a lot of observation
23:25 <+doy> dpeg: this conversation is in the context of eronarn arguing for basically every monster having an action speed of 10 (separate from their movement speed)
23:25 <+doy> for some context
23:25 <@dpeg> doy: thank you
23:25 <@dpeg> I am known to contribute to discussion unburdened by any background baggage
23:26 <+doy> (:
23:26 <@dpeg> *of
23:26 <@dpeg> and here I disagree with Ero
23:26 <+doy> dpeg: as do most of us
23:26 <+doy> (:
23:26 <+due> I think some  monsters would be fine, but not every.
23:26 <@dpeg> having two types of speed and using them is good
23:27 < TGW> dpeg: (with appropriate rebalancing)
23:27 <+due> But I agree that speed is often overused as a way of making something "interesting" or "more difficult".
23:27 < Eronarn> "basically every monster" isn't really what i mean
23:27 <+doy> Eronarn: well, that's what you said to me, shrug
23:27 < Eronarn> there are certainly monsters where having them with a higher base speed is interesting
23:27 < Eronarn> it should be used sparingly, though
23:27 < Eronarn> not the way it's used right now
23:28 <@dpeg> like spells, monsters should be looked at in a case by case manner
23:28 <@dpeg> general principles are good, but these should be rather like "higher action speed the deeper you go" imo
23:28 <+doy> the other issue with this is that it would be an incredible disruption in game balance
23:28 <+doy> which would take some serious effort to correct
23:28 <@dpeg> This is a gripe I have with all the new monster proposals (and also some new monsters): why not tweak the stuff that's there?
23:28 < TGW> doy: 15 -> 10 attack speed, 50% more damage :|
23:29 <+doy> TGW: see, that's the kind of thing that wouldn't work at all
23:29 <@dpeg> TGW: it matters more for spells, no?
23:29 < Eronarn> dpeg: a case by case manner is good, but i don't think it can really address this particular issue
23:29 < TGW> dpeg: yeah
23:30 <+doy> even for melee attacks, three attacks at damage x is very different from two attacks at damage x * 1.5
23:30 <@dpeg> yes, having different variance is interesting, imo
23:30 <@dpeg> interesting == notable in game
23:30 <+doy> especially if the attacks have special properties (poison, freezing, etc)
23:30 -!- sorear [n=stefan@ip72-220-237-239.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:31 < TGW> doy: yes, I'm talking about centaurs specifically
23:31 <@dpeg> now now Stefan! 
23:31 <@dpeg> *not now
23:31 <@dpeg> okay folks, the cards about AC and EV and SH are now on the table
23:31 <@dpeg> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:ac
23:31 <+due> Ooh
23:31 < TGW> maybe I could relate zin to this argument
23:32 <@dpeg> TGW: or zilch :P
23:32 <@dpeg> I prepare a mail on that. We should reach something really soon, to get a first version into the game
23:32 <+due> Is samuel coding it up?
23:32 <@dpeg> no, probably not
23:33 <+due> Okay.
23:33 <@dpeg> Sam's major contribution was looking at the numbers, very seriously
23:33 <+due> I'd offer, but... numbers terrify me :|
23:33 <+due> It sounds good though.
23:33 <@dpeg> due: yes, we noted last time discussion turned to polar coordinates :)
23:33 <+due> NewRR that is.
23:33 <@dpeg> I am not fully happy with everything, but I will comment on that.
23:34 <+due> dpeg: It's not so much that they terrify me in that I usually get very quickly confused when I don't fully understand something, and then I start making mistakes. :)
23:34 < TGW> acronyms are reduction and random reduction?
23:34 < TGW> or what
23:36 <@dpeg> TGW: which abbreviations?
23:36 < purge> hey due!
23:36 < Henzell> purge: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
23:36 <@dpeg> ah, R and RR
23:36 < TGW> all the Rs
23:36 < purge> !messages
23:36 < Henzell> (1/1) due said (16m 54s ago): Your efforts, as usual, far surpass mine!
23:37 <@dpeg> no, I think NewR = Newer, and NewRR = Even Newer :)
23:37 < purge> due: anything you would like changed on them before i submit?
23:37 <@dpeg> purge: yes, amazing work on the tiles front!
23:37 < TGW> the R is for...
23:37 < TGW> erm, oh
23:37 <+due> purge: Eyes!
23:37 < purge> thanks dpeg
23:37 < TGW> new-r
23:37 <+due> purge: Can they maybe have eyes like the other elves? :)
23:37 < purge> due: i don't think they can be added
23:37 <@dpeg> purge: due to your input, mainline Crawl is now lagging behind
23:37 < TGW> I guess the letter E is out of fashion
23:37 <@dpeg> crawling behind even :)
23:37 <@dpeg> TGW: absolutly uncool
23:38 <+due> purge: 
23:38 <+due> purge: Er, :(
23:38 <+due> The faces are too small/
23:38 < purge> due: i used the player doll maker for a base and the player dolls do not have eyes because the heads are too small
23:38 <+doy> newerer
23:38 <@dpeg> of course, NewRRR = NewR3
23:38 <+due> That's fine!
23:39 <+due> I think we can still go with them, but jpeg might have othe rsuggestions.
23:39 <@dpeg> I wonder if I should ask Haran for more help with the targeting interface.
23:39 <@dpeg> not sure how much I should push him
23:39 < purge> due: to note that these are custom as well, not just doll made
23:39 <+due> purge: Yeah, I noticed that. :D
23:40 < purge> due: also look at this i need your input:
23:40 < Eronarn> polar coordinates?! where!
23:40 < Eronarn> finally, math i will understand
23:40 < purge> due: http://s153.photobucket.com/albums/s210/purge83/Crawl/?action=view&current=iood_strip.png
23:41 < purge> i am trying to make an animated iood but i need to know how the clouds need to be
23:41 < purge> how many frames for instance
23:41 <@dpeg> Eronarn: due was asking how to make circles or ellipses
23:42 <@dpeg> but that was before Darshan unleashed his heights on us
23:42 <+due> purge: Oooh, nice.
23:42 <+due> purge: Well it's described as magical condensation... the clouds look excellent.
23:42 <+due> purge: And the other ones are the actual orbs?
23:43 <+due> We can animate monster tiles, even if we have to hack it ni.
23:43 < Eronarn> heightmaps <3
23:43 <+due> purge: please submit! I like that!
23:44 < purge> due: i was thinking the orb would pulsate with the "power"
23:44  * due nod.
23:44 <+due> Okay, crap, I'm supposed to have left ten minutes aog.
23:44 <+due> Byeee!
23:44 < purge> ok cya
23:45 < Ashenzari> Dowan and Duvessa tile submissions (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=448) by purge
23:47 <@dpeg> !seen drpraetor
23:47 < Henzell> I last saw DrPraetor at Sat Jan 16 17:59:02 2010 UTC (4h 48m 9s ago) quitting with message Connection timed out.
23:48 <@dpeg> !seen sorear
23:48 < Henzell> I last saw sorear at Sat Jan 16 22:30:59 2010 UTC (17m 53s ago) quitting with message Read error: 110 (Connection timed out).
23:48 <@dpeg> grrr
23:48 < Kyrris> Yeah, that is really nice, purge.  It's just a shame it'll travel too fast for people to see your work.
23:49 < Kyrris> IOOD should activate slow-motion!
23:49 <@dpeg> yes!
23:49 < Kyrris> No!
23:49 < syllogism> bullet time
23:49 <@dpeg> replay of the best scenes
23:49 < syllogism> that would actually be pretty awesome
23:49 <@dpeg> syllogism: would you mind having a look at the AC wiki page, once I am done editing it?
23:49 < Kyrris> Like !tv, but for tiles.
23:49 <@dpeg> <--- never played tiles
23:51 < Kyrris> So for you, people really -do- look like spirals.
23:51 < Kyrris> Interesting.
23:52 < Eronarn> by the way
23:52 < Eronarn> how would people feel about tiles using something like this: http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/File:Rev7.PNG
23:52 <@dpeg> Kyrris: well, I am a letter fighting against letters. Nothing else matters.
23:53 <+doy> Eronarn: if you could get it to work, it'd be pretty sweet
23:53 <@dpeg> awesome
23:53 < Kyrris> dpeg: That almost makes me want to write alphabet-wars flash fiction.
23:53 <+doy> i don't know that we generate walls in such a way to make that easy
23:53 <@dpeg> I would be already happy if there was a tileset consisting of letters for monsters
23:53 <@dpeg> Kyrris: you are welcome. Rhyme was not an accident :)
23:53 < Eronarn> doy: well, it is easy to figure out what a given wall "should" be
23:53 < Eronarn> there are only so many valid configurations
23:54 < Kyrris> dpeg: Should the protagonist be a p or an s?
23:54 <+doy> Eronarn: true enough
23:54 <@dpeg> Kyrris: an @ of course.
23:54 < Eronarn> to get it to work in tiles would probably be easier, because to get it to work in a terminal you'd need a custom font and stuff
23:54 < Kyrris> That's not a letter!
23:54 <@dpeg> Eronarn: yes, that is tiles stuff.
23:54 < Kyrris> There are no ats in the trenches!
23:54 <@dpeg> Kyrris: that is a defetist, overly technical objection.
23:54 <@dpeg> :)
23:55 < ogaz> the protagonist should be a p because everyone dies eventually
23:55 < purge> dpeg: if i am submitting an 8 tiles in one issue should i zip them or just upload them each?
23:55 < Eronarn> dpeg: that particular picture is basically a bitmap font. you CAN achieve the same effect in a terminal
23:55 < Kyrris> I need more marijuana for this conversation.
23:55 < Napkin> the Bailey where you can only get the loot at the end with levitation is planned, right?
23:55 < Napkin> (or blinking)
23:55 < Eronarn> and it would be nifty to have for non-tiles users
23:55 <@dpeg>           .......
23:55 <@dpeg> xx@@@@@@@@xxxxxxx@@@@@@@xx
23:55 < Eronarn> but it would require user configuration to set it up right
23:55 < syllogism> I did look at it, the AC nerf seems fairly subdued which is good
23:56 <@dpeg> syllogism: yes, s/15/23/ only
23:56 < syllogism> the other changes look more interesting and difficult
23:56 <@dpeg> syllogism: did you see that Dex is allowed to run free on EV?
23:56 <+doy> Eronarn: i'm pretty sure you'd require custom fonts and such
23:56 <+doy> i don't think there are diagonal line drawing glyphs
23:56 < Eronarn> doy: yes
23:56 < Eronarn> that's what i mean by user configuration :)
23:56 <@dpeg> Napkin: the one with the river should provide means of levitation
23:57 < Eronarn> the binary could presumably have it packaged, but playing over CDO the user would need to set up their terminal to handle it
23:57 < Napkin> it's with orcs and in a circle - lots of shallow water
23:57 < Napkin> Eifel will do a BR
23:57 < Napkin> and include screenshot
23:58 < Eronarn> more importantly, you'd need a way to figure out, outside the tiles interface, what walls are supposed to be
23:58 <@dpeg> Napkin: thanks
23:58 <@dpeg> a spiral?
23:58 < Eronarn> which is doable, of course, though unsure how much math it would require
23:58 < syllogism> do you get over 1ev per dex point at high dodging?
23:59 < Kyrris> Eronarn: Depends on what sort of data structure the map is in.
23:59 < Eronarn> Kyrris: well, it would need to be done after all map generation is done, so... whatever it's stored in between when all map generation is done and when it hits the player's eyes :)
23:59 < Napkin> yes, dpeg 
23:59 < Kyrris> I could give you a pretty optimal algorithm, if I knew that.