00:01 < Napkin> rax, are you in?
00:01 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r56bdc43adbfa /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-abil.cc monster.cc): Make slime creatures split in open space.
00:01 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rb1b883e344e6 /crawl-ref/source/mon-abil.cc: Add a coinflip() to slimes splitting, so it's not as reliable.
00:02 <+due> hooray!
00:03 <@rax> Napkin: Yo, what's up?
00:03 < Napkin> ahh, cool :)
00:03 < Napkin> Hi!
00:03 < Napkin> I was wondering - can I extract single topics from henzell's learndb somehow?
00:04 <@rax> There is more than one way, though the two I can think of both have problems. Certainly you could do it programmatically if you really wanted.
00:04 <@rax> What are you looking to do?
00:04 < Napkin> i've added http://crawl.develz.org/monster/index.php for my dad
00:04 <@rax> I mean there's http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html 
00:04 < Napkin> and would like to show learndb's info too
00:05 <@rax> Oooh.
00:05 <+due> Did I miss the lobster?
00:05 <+due> Hi, rax!
00:06 < Napkin> in worst case I could pull learndb daily
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00:06 <+due> Heya pointless_.
00:06 <+pointless_> Hi
00:07 <@rax> Well, you could use the big HTML learndb, or you could go to http://crawl.akrasiac.org/henzell/src/henzell/dat/learndb/
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00:07 <@rax> The format is irritating, but something you could query programmatically if you wanted to.
00:08 < Napkin> ahhh, that folder is great
00:08 < Napkin> terrific - all I need :)
00:08 < Napkin> thanks!
00:08 <@rax> No problem :)
00:09 < Napkin> but - tomorrow.. time to grab some sleep now :) g'night!
00:09 <@rax> When you have that up as a production thing, let me know so that I can link to it? That's awesome, especially for people who don't use IRC.
00:09 <@rax> Night!
00:10 < Napkin> sure thing :)
00:10 < Napkin> o/
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00:13 <+due> oh, night napking!
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00:31 <+due> @??swamp worm
00:31 < Gretell> swamp worm (w) | Speed: 12 | HD: 5 | Health: 25-50 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 20 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 168.
00:31 < Vandal> sup due
00:31 <+due> @??ant larvae
00:31 < Gretell> unknown monster: "ant larvae"
00:31 <+due> @??ant larva
00:31 < Gretell> ant larva (w) | Speed: 6 | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 2/6 | Damage: 5 | Res: magic(8) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 1.
00:31 <+due> Hm.
00:32 <+due> @??killer bee larva
00:32 < Gretell> killer bee larva (w) | Speed: 5 | HD: 1 | Health: 3-8 | AC/EV: 1/5 | Damage: 3 | Res: magic(4) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 1.
00:32 <+due> KBL need to become brown.
00:32 <+due> Which overlaps with swamp worm, but they don't occur together... ever?
00:32 < Vandal> got any idea why slings are gifting rocks for ammo constantly?
00:32 < Vandal> best I could do was find the line I gave you
00:33 < Vandal> I mean I'm sure they were always like this
00:33 <+due> Hm.
00:33 < Vandal> and no one bothered making slings their primary wewapon
00:33 < Vandal> so it was an undiscovered issue :P
00:33 <+due> I don't really have time to check right now, so hang on
00:33 < Vandal> oh ok
00:34 < Vandal> want me to make an issue on mantis?
00:34 <+due> (Will look quickly, but then I have t ogo)
00:34 <+due> Well, that's broken.
00:34 < Vandal> ?
00:34 <+due> SK_SLINGS should not return MI_STONE.
00:35 < Vandal> Well, like I said, it was a lead but I don't know what exactly it means :D
00:35 < Vandal> there is a bit in there about darts and xbows too
00:35 <+due> It's giving you stones if Slings are your best ranged skill.
00:35 < Vandal> and nothing but stones?
00:35 <+due> Yup.
00:35 < Vandal> yuck
00:35 < Vandal> cbus was the guy pointing this out today
00:35 < Vandal> I just tried to figure out why
00:36 < Vandal> well want me to make an issue about it so you can deal with it later?
00:36 <+due> Well, blowguns and darts should work okay...
00:36 <+due> But people might want javelins or large rocks.
00:36 < Vandal> I suspect the bit about xbows / minixbows / darts may not be an issue since it checked if you owned a minixbow?
00:36 < Vandal> just unused code at this point?
00:37 <+due> Whoops, yeah.
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00:37 < Vandal> well like I said, want me to go make an issue so we don't let this one fall through the cracks?
00:37 <+due> Hang on
00:37 <+due> 'm fixing this one
00:38 < Vandal> oh ok :)
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00:51 < TGW> due: any leads on the explosion thing?
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01:08 < TGW> Edmund misses you.
01:08 < TGW> You hit Edmund.
01:08 < TGW> Edmund blinks!
01:08 < TGW> that doesn't seem right
01:08 < TGW> oh, chaos
01:08 < TGW> false alarm
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02:02 < cbus> due, or maybe not just pure ammo, maybe some armour and other weapons (if you aren't just pure ranged, I assume you were talking about oka 1h35min ago)
02:02 < cbus> too sleepy to read back :)
02:02 < cbus> bed time!
02:31 < cbus> does stasis block the haste in berserk too?
02:32 < cbus> nope, it blocks berserk completely
02:33 <+due> Which explosion thing?
02:33 < Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
02:33 < cbus> so you don't even get might
02:33 <+due> !messages
02:33 < Henzell> (1/1) LordSloth said (1h 22m 30s ago): yeah, the bastard got buffed big time.
02:33 <+due> :D
02:35 <+due> !tell mu_ Looking into it.
02:35 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let mu_ know.
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02:49 < Ashenzari> Make merged slime creatures identifiable at a glance (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=394) by OG17
02:49 <+due> They... are?
03:08 <+due> Oh, non-tiles.
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03:26 <+due> A TGW, oh dear.
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03:28 < TGW> flee
03:54 < Ashenzari> Allow undead races to use Stoneskin (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=395) by OG17
03:59 <+due> ...
04:06 <+doy> actually, this conversation belongs here
04:06 <+doy> (:
04:06 <+doy> due ^^
04:07 <+doy> while you're at it though, you should parameterize the size and spacing of the boxes
04:07 <+due> True
04:07 <+doy> because i think that would be something decent to use for convergence
04:07 <+due> Well, currently it just randomly places the boxes.
04:07 <+doy> does your new layout do overlapping boxes?
04:07 <+doy> like the old one did?
04:07 <+due> No
04:07 <+due> No, that's a different layout
04:08 <+due> that's plan_4
04:08 <+doy> oh, does vaults use more than one layout?
04:08 <+due> Yeah
04:08 <+sorear> due: fortunately, I know exactly why I don't like either of the proposals, and have commented negatively
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04:09 <+due> doy: It's actually weighted towards plan_4.
04:09 <+doy> yeah, that sounds right
04:09 <+doy> plan_4 is already in lua, right?
04:09 <+due> No :/
04:09 <+due> plan_# is
04:09 <+due> *3
04:10 <+doy> 1, 2, 3, and 6 are, apparently
04:10 <+due> It shouldn't be too difficult to translate, though
04:10 <+doy> yeah
04:10 <+due> As most of the functions necessary exist...
04:10 <+due> the only issue is the continue statements :/
04:10 <+doy> what about them?
04:10 <+due> They do not exist in Lua
04:10 <+doy> eh, not that hard to restructure
04:10 <+due> Yeah, but not as pretty.
04:11 <+due> Or at least, this was Zaba's complaint.
04:11 <+doy> eh, depends
04:12 <+doy> it'd be sweet if the lua layouts could access the actual map objects
04:12 <+doy> rather than just the text layouts from vault files
04:12 <+due> they kinda can
04:12 <+due> I discussed it with greensnark
04:13 <+due> It just needs a bit of futzing around with a nice table system, but it could be doable... say
04:13 <+due> local v = dgn.new_map(), etc.
04:13 <+doy> yeah, i know it could be doable
04:13 <+doy> just wish it was already
04:13 <+doy> (:
04:13 <+due> haha yeah
04:13 <+doy> would make converting layouts a lot easier
04:13 <+due> Oh?
04:14 <+doy> well, because there wouldn't be that layer of indirection
04:14 <+due> Ah, yeah
04:14 <+doy> just thinking about things like placing monsters and such
04:14 <+due> You can do that
04:14 <+due> mapgrd[x][y] = "1"
04:14 <+doy> right
04:14 <+due> mons("blah")
04:14 <+due> Shoudl work
04:14 <+doy> that's complicated though
04:14 <+due> Having map objects won't be any simpler, though...
04:14 <+due> As you're working on the pure maplines
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04:15 <+doy> what?
04:16 <+doy> i mean, i'm just talking from my experience with doing the lair stuff
04:16 <+due> oh
04:16 <+due> Yeah
04:16 <+doy> i could just say mons_place(whatever)
04:16 <+due> The Lua layouts work purely on the vault, rather than on the dungeon grid
04:16 <+doy> and there were things like feat_is_wall available
04:16 <+due> Yeah
04:16 <+doy> and that sort of thing
04:17 <+due> Part of the issue is that, with the Lua layouts, you don't necessarily know if it *is* a wall yet.
04:17 <+due> It might actually be a wall later.
04:17 <+doy> what do you mean?
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04:18 <+due> The dungeon layouts have already generated the map, and are working off env.grid, etc
04:18 <+due> The Lua layouts are literally vaults; they are map_def and map_lines objects
04:18 <+doy> right
04:18 <+doy> oh, because you can do weird things like subst() in lua layouts
04:18 <+due> yes
04:18 <+due> exactly
04:18 <+due> it might be a wall *now*
04:18 <+due> but it could be floor later.
04:19 <+doy> yeah, this makes them a lot harder to deal with
04:19 <+doy> if you're already generating the map algorithmically, doing that in two steps just makes it confusing to figure out what's going on
04:20 <+due> yeah
04:20 <+due> Though shuffles, substs, etc, really shouldn't be used in layouts.
04:20 <+doy> you could keep subst() and stuff, just make them modify the actual map object in place
04:20 <+due> It'd just cause *massive* confusion
04:20 <+doy> but yeah, that too
04:20 <+due> doy: They do, I believe
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04:20 <+due> with the subvault changes, Enne made the subst/kfeat/etc stuff occur immediately
04:20 <+doy> due: how can they?
04:21 <+due> As soon as they're called, they modify the map
04:21 <+due> So the order of SHUFFLE, KFEAT, SUBST, etc, in the map definition, does matter
04:21 <+due> SUBST: x = ..r
04:21 <+due> KFEAT: r = .
04:22 <+due> There might still be a disparity with some of the functions... for instance, you can't use a SHUFFLE on MARKERs, as they've already been placed (rather than "Will be placed at the end of the map").
04:22 <+doy> but 'r' isn't a tile type
04:22 <+doy> how is that stored in the map object
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04:23 <+Enne> That's not entirely true, due.
04:23 <+Enne> KFEAT still applies afterwards.
04:24 <+doy> enne is spying on us
04:24 <+Enne> Or, all the keyed mapspec bits do.
04:24 <+Enne> Lies.
04:24 <+due> Oh
04:24 <+due> Does it?
04:24 <+due> Argh :|
04:24 <+due> Sorry, here's me spreading misinformation.
04:24 <+due> Hi, Enne! Did you see my city_layout conversion in Lua? It's evil.
04:24 <+Enne> Keyed mapspecs *could* apply immediately, but there were a lot of vaults that would have to change.
04:25 <+due> Ahh! I remembered you'd mentioned it at some point in time. :)
04:25 <+due> I just forgot the context.
04:25 <+due> (And here I was about to leave a backscroll Enne: I think I understand it all now! message. :D)
04:25 <+doy> anyway, the point of this conversation is that i think i'll wait until someone does that 'actual map object in lua' thing before i start doing lua layouts
04:25 <+doy> (:
04:25 <+Enne> (I wasn't really spying.  I just was catching up on backscroll and saw my name at the very end.  :P)
04:26 <+due> Enne: Greensnark suggested a prettyfied version of the dgn.mons, et all, functions, as a userdata table, which could be pushed using map_def.
04:26 <+due> So, dgn.new_map could push a new, empty map_def object.
04:27 <+due> Greensnark also said that the map() call would cause confusion. I got a bit lost after that. :)
04:27 <+Enne> I'm kind of lost right now.
04:27 <+due> Me too.
04:27 <+doy> seems like just wrapping the c++ stuff in lua directly would be pretty straightforward
04:27 <+doy> just a lot of work
04:28 <+due> say, static int dgn_new_map (luaState ls*) map_def new_map; push_userdata(ls, new_map);    
04:28 <+due> Which would mean that you could do "local map = dgn.new_map()", but you'd then have to do "dgn.mons(map, "blah")".
04:29 <+due> (Which is what I think doy wanted?")
04:29 <+Enne> I'm still not really following.  Are you saying setting features and monsters directly on a map rather than glyphs?
04:30 <+doy> for tile in dgn.adjacent_iterator(blah) do stuff() end
04:30 <+doy> (:
04:31 <+doy> Enne: yes, basically like the c++ interface
04:31 <+due> doy: That's doable
04:31 <+due> for point in iter.adjacent_iterator(point) do stuff() end
04:31 <+due> You just have to check that the point is a valid one within the scope of the map_lines.
04:32 <+due> Enne: The discussion centered around the fact that prelude Lua isn't actually able to create maps right now; so, you need NAME: etc (see uniques.des). It was suggested that maps could be created by Lua directly, as well as manipulated by them.
04:32 <+Enne> Gotcha.
04:33 <+due> I asked greensnark if it was just as simple as a dgn.new_map() function that pushed a fresh map_def, and the reply was, "Kinda" :)
04:34 <+Enne> Yeah, even ignoring the accessor functions to modify the map, you'd need a separate path to apply that map to the grd/igrid/mgrid.
04:34  * due nod.
04:35 <+due> Oh, that reminds me
04:35 <+due> I need to push those new builder functions...
04:35 <+Enne> Currently all maps are just a bunch of glyphs, so applying it means going through vault_main or whatever that function is to actually take a glyph and then modify the actual dungeon.
04:35 <+doy> yeah, pretty sure it would be pretty straightforward, just a whole bunch of work
04:35 <+doy> because there are a whole lot of functions
04:36 <+Enne> You'd need some separate "not-an-array-of-glyphs map" that Lua could create, functions to muck with it, and then some path to apply it to the dungeon.
04:38 <+due> Mmm, delicious Lua.
04:38 < CIA-81> due * racabbaacbc91 /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/clua/util.lua l_dgnbld.cc): Some new Lua wrappers for dungeon building and ranges.
04:38 < CIA-81> due * raf50b39780da /crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: A start at fixing missile acquirement (Vandal).
04:38 <+due> Oh
04:38 <+due> Damn, I didn't mean to push that second commit. 
04:42 <+due> Should be okay, though, I suppose.
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04:43 < bmh> auto-explore bug: It doesn't account for water-walking
04:43 <+due> In what sense?
04:43 <+due> It won't traverse water if you have that gift?
04:43 <+due> I think that's deliberate.
04:43 < bmh> yeah
04:43 <+doy> that is deliberate
04:43 <+due> It's a high-piety gift
04:43 <+due> If your piety decays while over water
04:44 <+doy> because beogh piety decays with time
04:44 <+due> ... splash!
04:44 < bmh> That would be embarrassing 
04:44 <+due> It's hilarious.
04:44 <+due> Surely there are some deaths where people have been walking on water and used smite to decay piety quickly?
04:44 <+due> !lg * god=beogh ktyp=drowning
04:44 < Henzell> 3. heteroy the Swashbuckler (L14 HOPr), worshipper of Beogh, drowned on Hive:2 on 2009-08-25, with 47988 points after 22429 turns and 1:30:23.
04:44 <+due> !lg * god=beogh ktyp=drowning -2
04:44 < Henzell> 2. Stormfox the Chopper (L8 HOPr), worshipper of Beogh, drowned on D:6 on 2009-03-19, with 1173 points after 6328 turns and 0:33:35.
04:44 <+due> !lg * god=beogh ktyp=drowning -3
04:44 < Henzell> 1. Mayhem the Cleaver (L8 HOPr), worshipper of Beogh, drowned on D:7 on 2009-01-21, with 1270 points after 6249 turns and 0:24:11.
04:44 <+due> Hm, maybe not.
04:45 <+doy> !lg * god=beogh ktyp=drowning -tv
04:45 < Henzell> 3. heteroy, XL14 HOPr, T:22429 requested for FooTV.
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04:46 < Mu_> ty due
04:46 <+due> We need paralysing jellfish just for the Hive:2 "lols".
04:47 <+due> HAHAHAHAHAH
04:47 <+due> Oh that is awesome.
04:47 <+doy> wait, what did he do?
04:47 <+due> He fireballed the electrical eel
04:47 <+doy> fireball an orc?
04:47 <+due> And hit "Y" at the "Really fire at your orc?" prompt.
04:47 <+doy> heh
04:47 <+doy> !lg * god=beogh ktyp=drowning -2 -tv
04:47 < Henzell> 2. Stormfox, XL8 HOPr, T:6328 requested for FooTV.
04:49 <+due> Oh man.
04:49 <+doy> there you go
04:49 <+due> <3333
04:49 <+due> Okay, need a hotkey for "give god gift now" for wizmode.
04:49 <+due> -?
04:49 <+due> Or control _?
04:54 <+due> I'm trying to decide if my next playtesting post will be "Have You Met Mr Mara?", "What's that around your neck?" or "Down and out with the Dungeon Builders".
04:55 <+due> "Have You Met Jiyva?" might be a bit more ironic.
04:55 <+due> "Jiyva Crew"? Hehehee.
05:11 <+due> Hm, bugger. Anyway.
05:12 < Eronarn> jiyva mutssss.
05:13 <+due> What are our major changes recently, anyway? Uniques, portal vaults, amulets, range combat, layouts, gods, demonspawn...
05:13 <+due> Slime creatures, ugly things
05:14 <+doy> due: at some point, should do an overall "since 0.5.2" post again
05:14 <+due> doy: That's what I was thinking
05:14 <+due> doy: Though I might do the individual changes in a few non-list posts.
05:14 <+due> Okay, lunch time.
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06:20 <+due> yoyoyo
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06:29 < CIA-81> due * r87f6bc7bfb79 /crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc religion.cc religion.h wiz-you.cc wiz-you.h): A quick "god gift" Wizard function.
06:33 <+due> Hm
06:33 <+due> Still missing doors somehow.
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06:40 <+due> Woohoo!
06:40 <+due> I'm having to give boxes doors twice because sometimes the first time fails.
06:41 < Mu_> due did you look at dis yet
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06:50 <+due> Ahah!
06:50 <+due> doy: I fixed it, I swapped logic somewhere :)
06:50 <+doy> (:
06:51 <+due> It's pretty nasty at the minute.
06:53 <+due> I've also completely ignored how it currently builds doors in favour of something slightly simpler.
07:02 <+sorear> at some point in the future (10 years from now sounds good), dungeon.cc needs to die
07:06 <+doy> once we make the lua interface look more like dungeon.cc than like a weird .des file editor
07:06 <+due> :D
07:07 <+due> 10 years from now sounds like how long it would take.
07:08 <+due> aah.
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07:34 <+Keskitalo> Morning!
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07:59 <+due> hi Keskitalo!
08:01 <+due> I'm trying to decide if "give_box_rooms" should be a dgnbld function or not... I think so.
08:02 <+due> On second thoughts, yes, it should be.
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08:07 <+due> Ahaha.
08:07 <+due> That's... the whole point of flavour.
08:22 <+due> Eronarn: You honestly think branding spells should count towards each other?
08:22 <+due> I think that is *massively* ovepowered.
08:22 < Eronarn> due: not fully
08:22 < Eronarn> partially, though, yes
08:25 <+due> Well, Fire Brand and Freezing Aura are different schools and have compltely different effects.
08:25 <+due> The only think they have in common is that they work off your weapon.
08:25 <+due> Transmutation spells work of your body; should they also get a bonus?
08:26 < Eronarn> yes, but like i said in that FR it should be addressed systematically :P
08:26 <+due> Yes, they should get a bonus?
08:26 <+due> Then what about conjurations--they have something in common in that they create stuff out of thin air. Should they also get a bonus?
08:27 < Eronarn> brands and forms both share the property that they're only useful one-spel-at-a-time, and casting the spell itself doesn't do anything
08:27 <+due> Taking it further to stupid extremes, we could give Fire school spells boni because they all work with fire in some way.
08:28 < Eronarn> brand/form A is incompatible with brand/form B, thus meaning that the falloff in slot usefulness is far worse than, say, memming multiple conj spells
08:28 <+due> I don't think that because the spells have something in common, they should be given level bonuses against each other. How about Warp Weapon and Freezing Aura?
08:28 <+due> Oh.
08:28 <+due> That still doesn't make sense.
08:29 <+due> We give people bonuses because they've decided to learn spells that work in different ways on the same, common thing?
08:29 <+due> (And are mutually exclusive?)
08:29 < Eronarn> it's the mutually exclusive part, insofar as they're not spells that are incompatible, but spells that all produce a single effect of which you can only have one (but the effects themselves are very similar)
08:32  * due still disagrees.
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08:55 <+due> doy: ping
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09:01 <+due> My line code didn't trranslate into C++ as well as I'd hoped.
09:04 <+due> Ah, forgot the breaks.
09:10 <+Keskitalo> The "Testing and Feedback" might encourage lazy reporting. What's #388 if not a bug..
09:11 <+Keskitalo> (it's the poison poisoned arrow of flame report)
09:13 <+due> Hm, yeah.
09:13 <+due> I need to fix that.
09:13 <+due> I'm just going to disallow for the minute, then hack in Nessos's, if possible.
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09:26 <+by> hi
09:26 < Henzell> by: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
09:26 <+by> !messages
09:26 < Henzell> (1/2) due said (3w 2d 3h 42m 59s ago): --more-- is still odd on trunk, 7a77115, I think.
09:26 <+by> !messages
09:26 < Henzell> (1/1) Napkin said (9h 54m 34s ago): by> some other options: just let the window scroll instead of print --more-- <- excellent! I propose a constant "*message missed*" or "*more*" message somewhere in the message window to inform players about missed messages.
09:27 <+Keskitalo> Hi by!
09:27 <+Keskitalo> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/file_download.php?file_id=81&type=bug
09:27 <+Keskitalo> Sandworms, anyone?
09:28 <+due> Hehehehe.
09:28 <+due> Yeah, kraken tentacles reach onto land.
09:28 <+due> it looks weird in tiles.
09:30  * due does a dance.
09:30 <+due> I finished re-implementing city_level in Lua!
09:33 <+due>  http://sprunge.us/MKUW http://sprunge.us/ISQS http://sprunge.us/UBMT http://sprunge.us/AVfV http://sprunge.us/KeZO http://sprunge.us/HGXC http://sprunge.us/XGAS http://sprunge.us/aYOF http://sprunge.us/EIiN http://sprunge.us/LQKP
09:33 <+due> Ten iterations of it.
09:35 <+Keskitalo> Cool!
09:36 <+due> It's basically identical to the original C++.
09:36 <+due> Only the door generation is completelyy redone.
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09:38 <+Keskitalo> Maps look good. The last one looks like it has a "town square" in the middle. :)
09:40 <+due> Yeah, for some reason it doesn't place them right on the edge...
09:45 < Napkin> Moin!
09:45 <+due> Hi Napkin!
09:47 < Napkin> geeee.. meeting in 13m! who made that schedule?!
09:47 < Napkin> grrrr
09:47 < Napkin> !coffee
09:48  * Keskitalo hands Napkin some coffee
09:48 <+due> :)
09:52 <+due> I'm going to write "Have You Meet Mr Mara?" tonight.
09:55 < Napkin> \o/
09:55 < Napkin> thanks! and Coool!
09:57 <+due> I'm going to do a run-down of all the new uniques since 0.5.2, where you can find them, and kill statistics. :)
09:57 <+Keskitalo> I'd like to add CDO and CAO as ready-selectable profiles in the Mantis.
09:57 <+Keskitalo> due: Ooh, sounds nice!
09:57 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: What's the Platform, OS and OS Version for CDO? :)
09:57 <+Keskitalo> rax: Same question about CAO!
09:58 <+by> greensnark: stabbed my first snapping turtle <3
09:58 < CIA-81> due * rc6f5386588f7 /crawl-ref/source/l_dgnbld.cc: More new dungeon build functions, and some adjustments.
09:58 < CIA-81> due * rbe20930c209f /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Fix #388, disallow poison combos except for Nessos.
09:58 < Napkin> Keskitalo: amd64, debian lenny
09:59 <+Keskitalo> Hmm.. I think I should "hack" that to show "CDO" in there, now the profile only says "AMD64 Debian Lenny".. probably "AMD64 Debian Lenny (CDO)"
09:59 <+Keskitalo> so I input the OS Version as "Lenny (CDO)"
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10:13 < purge> @whereis greensnark
10:13 < Gretell> greensnark the Archer (L12 HaWn), a worshipper of Makhleb, saved on Lair:1 on 2010-01-11 after 19274 turns.
10:21 <+due> ??grum
10:21 < Henzell> grum[1/2]: Unique gnoll. Breeds war dogs. Will eat you! So will dogs! Wears the skin of a deceased war dog. Aw!
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10:35 <+Keskitalo> Eronarn: The brainstorming template is very good.
10:39 < ortoslon> plain foxfire summoned hostile invisible vapours when i couldn't see invisible
10:40 < Ashenzari> evktalo created page Spider's Nest at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:spider
10:43 < ortoslon> you should fix that because it's cruel when you draw a card, nothing on screen changes, no message is written and then next turn you're one-shotted
10:47 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r7e1f74b9907e /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/tool/tile_list_processor.cc: In tile-dngn.html display tile weights as percent values.
10:57 < purge> due: the desert wiki page got some feedback, none negative! :D
10:57 < purge> well... ok borsuks was a little bit
10:58 <+due> hooray!
10:58 <+due> borsuk's usually is.
10:59 <+due> ortoslon: "Haha, gotcha!"
10:59 < ortoslon> haha
10:59 < ortoslon> but that's not even crawl-cruel
10:59 < ortoslon> more like i wanna be the guy-cruel
11:01 <+due> Oh fucking hell.
11:01 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, the Desert looked pretty good.
11:02 <+due> "Branches like x,y,z disgust me."?
11:02 <+Keskitalo> Hehe, that's Borsuk. :)
11:03 <+due> It's still not right.
11:05 <+Keskitalo> Whoo, I survived a D:1 exploding dart attack.
11:05 <+due> Hooray!
11:05 <+due> Maybe I'm just grumpy today.
11:07 <+Keskitalo> When playing AM, I sure use the branding spells a lot on the melee weapons.
11:07 <+due> Hehehe, really?
11:07 <+due> Yeah, I wondered about that.
11:07 <+due> purge = Andorxor?
11:08 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, more than on the launchers. Poison weapon is good on the launchers, the elemental ones are kind of "why bother". On melee weapons, you can slow cold-blooded critters and cauterize hydra necks.
11:09 <+due> Yeah.
11:09 <+due> It's more like magical hunter than magical ranged fighter!
11:09 <+due> However, hunter still has its boni: shields, better ammo...
11:11 <+Keskitalo> If frost/flame ammo did something interesting, I'd use them more.
11:11 <+due> 50% damage increase is't interesting enough?
11:11 <+due> Flame is useful for ice beasts.
11:11 <+due> And frost is useful for imps.
11:12 <+Keskitalo> I need bells and whistles I guess. :)
11:14 <+Keskitalo> Hmm, well, I use melee branding more because I use them when taking down non-dangerous enemies. But only use ammo if I have a lot or need to take down something more dangerous.
11:14 <+due> Ah, yeah. Ammo limitations are aalways annoying.
11:15 <+Keskitalo> Does the frost/flame branding increase mulching rate at all currently? That's probably one assumption (that they do) why I avoid using frost/flame brand on launchers.
11:15 <+due> Hm.
11:16 <+due> Not by much, I think?
11:16 < Twinge_> Fair point
11:16 <+due> Temp-brand probably shouldn't mulch that much, to be honest.
11:16 < Twinge_> I thought they did by a good amount?  Not sure
11:17 <+Keskitalo> due: Cause Fear is great by the way. :)
11:17 <+due> It is? Awesome.
11:17 <+due> Who suggested it?
11:18 <+Keskitalo> Hehee, early Fedhas altar.
11:18 < Twinge_> Eronarn or sorear I think?  I was there for that conversation but don't remmeber it exactly ;P
11:19 <+due> Yeah, I was too, and me neither.
11:20 <+due> Keskitalo: Any backstory on Purgy I should know?
11:20 <+due> ??purgy
11:20 < Henzell> purgy[1/1]: An unusually thin and nervous troll. Sad, really. :(
11:21 < purge> due: andorxor?
11:22 <+due> purge: Someone on the Wiki, I thought it might be you?
11:22 < purge> no i am purge
11:22 <+due> Oh, hm.
11:23 < purge> !gamesby andorxor
11:23 < Henzell> No games for andorxor.
11:24 <+Keskitalo> due: He was bullied by the bigger trolls for being so small, so he left and sought refuge in the Sewers.
11:24 <+due> !killsby purgy
11:24 < Henzell> 12 games for * (ckiller=purgy): 2x FilthyApe, 2x Baccano, 1x foolcircle, 1x clouded, 1x pingpong, 1x TGW, 1x LordSloth, 1x Kyrris, 1x hash, 1x Azeral
11:24 <+Keskitalo> That's not explicit in the game, but that's the idea behind him.
11:24 <+due> :D
11:31 < Ashenzari> Holy Wrath isn't grayed out for DS (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=396) by OG17
11:32 <+Keskitalo> Ok, I found 20 darts of dispersal.. should be pretty good.
11:33 <+Keskitalo> I *love* how toadstools are coloured according to the monster. :)
11:39 < cbus> do ghosts with slings use ranged? :)
11:40 <+due> cbus: All ranged ghosts lose their missiles when they die.
11:42 < cbus> due, not entirely true
11:42 < cbus> conjurers don't
11:42 < cbus> or dracs :)
11:43 <+due> Those aren't physical missiles?
11:43 < cbus> well yeah
11:45 < CIA-81> kilobyte * re22f0de5a4d9 /crawl-ref/source/l_dgnbld.cc: Die noisily on invalid box_side (mostly to silence compiler warnings).
11:45 <+kilobyte> other than this, we build cleanly against gcc trunk
11:46 <+due> Awesome
11:46 <+due> I didn't realise I'd committed that
11:46 <+due> Er, pushed.
11:47 <+due> And bugger, does adjacent_iterator default to including the central position?
11:47 <+kilobyte> no idea :(
11:47 <+due> exclude_center is true...
11:48 <+due> which means that my layout code is fucked :/
11:48 <+due> Oh, no, it's not
11:48 <+due> It has to be more than three
12:00 <+due> http://sprunge.us/Ajic
12:01 <+Keskitalo> There's doors next to the border wall.
12:01 <+due> Yeah.
12:01 <+due> That's my problem, though I think I just solved it.
12:01 <+due> (Sorry, should've eclarified as to why I was linking.)
12:02 <+due> Oh snark which is green!
12:02 <+due> Bless us with your autumn presence.
12:04 <+due> Nope, just made anendless loop, yay!
12:07 <+due> Hm.
12:08 <+due> Hey, do Vaults vaults usually slaughter City Level?
12:11 < Twinge_> Buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
12:14 < CIA-81> due * rd551e03fd1a6 /crawl-ref/source/l_dgnbld.cc: Fix incorrect math in make_box_doors.
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12:27 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r9c1370e65f10 /crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Mark holy weapons as useless more faithfully to their actual uselessness.
12:34 < ais523> hmm, mightn't they still be usable for the enchantment, even if the branding is useless
12:35 < ais523> likewise, for a weapon of pain with no necromancy skill, it can still be useful if it's highly enchanted
12:35 <+due> Demonspawn ca't wield them.
12:36 < cbus> or undeads
12:36 <+kilobyte> or necromutated
12:37 < ais523> what happens if you try?
12:37 < ais523> (or become necromutated while holding one?)
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12:37 <+kilobyte>  Your body is suffused with negative energy! Your +0,+0 dagger of holy wrath falls away!    Your +0,+0 dagger of holy wrath stops glowing. You are now empty-handed.
12:39 < ais523> makes sense, although could cause a slight logical problem if it's cursed at the time
12:39 < cbus> a holy item being cursed sounds like something that should be prevented though
12:39 <+due> It is.
12:39 < cbus> ahh nice :)
12:39 < cbus> would be hilarious though
12:39 <+due> holy wath weapons cannot be cursed.
12:39 < ais523> reminds me of the technique of escaping from cursed boots in NetHack by turning into a centipede
12:40 < cbus> DS with a cursed holy weapon that burns through your hand for 1d5 damage each turn
12:40 < cbus> :D
12:40 <+due> "Your +0,+0 short sword of holy wrath does not go black."
12:40 < cbus> or something like that
12:40 < ais523> "ooh, that doesn't feel deathly cold"
12:40 <+due> ais523: Precisely!
12:40 <+due> post-modern crawl.
12:41 < ais523> are there flavour problems with demigods with weapons of holy wrath?
12:42 <+kilobyte> that message was proposed but rejected, it's: Your +0,+0 dagger of holy wrath glows black briefly, but repels the curse.
12:43 < ais523> "your dagger of holy wrath is already glowing so brightly you can't tell if it's trying to glow black as well, or not"
12:43 <+due> kilobyte: Hm, I thought jpeg/everyone liked it.
12:44 <+kilobyte> perhaps, it's not a bad idea.  I'm just mentioning what's in trunk.
12:44 < ais523> now I want a dagger of random uselessness
12:45 <+kilobyte> should I remove the code for electric missiles?  They were done by reusing my code for launchers of electrocution, but you can't even get that missile brand anymore.
12:46 <+due> No, you can
12:46 <+due> On unrands.
12:46 <+due> I specifically left it in so that it could be used for the bow of storms.
12:46 <+kilobyte> you can get the weapon brand but not missile brand
12:46 <+due> Hm, then that's a mistake on my part.
12:47 <+due> It should go back in, because I think it's acceptable and fnu for unrands.
12:47 <+kilobyte> or rather lack of eagerness to delete stuff while it's still being brainstormed
12:48 <+kilobyte> currently the weapon brand is used for storm bow and 1/5 of unrand crossbows
12:48 <+due> Hm, possibly not, I'm pretty sure I rerwrote the section of code that gave crossbows brands.
12:50 <+kilobyte> I mean artefact crossbows only.
12:50 <+due> Oh
12:50 <+kilobyte> and only 1/3 of 1/5 actually
12:50 <+due> That's fine then
12:50 <+due> We just need to make charged missiles work again, looks like I broke it
12:51 <+kilobyte> hmm... weren't all weapon randarts supposed to have a brand?
12:52 <+due> Yup.
12:53 <+Zaba> hrm
12:53 <+due> Zaba!
12:53 <+due> Zaba: http://sprunge.us/LUCf
12:54 <+Zaba> nice
12:55 <+due> But I am at a loss
12:55 <+due> Vaults will eat into the border and I don't know how to stop it.
13:08 <+by> due: I've seen vaults in the vaults border before
13:08 <+due> Oh, really?
13:08 <+due> Hm.
13:08 <+due> For some reason I thought this was an issue.
13:09 <+greensnark> Remove the border if it troubles your mind, young padawan
13:09 <+greensnark> Good evening
13:09 <+due> greensnark!
13:09 <+by> it does seem weird, but it's not a new issue
13:09 <+due> greensnark, I sent you an email. :)
13:09 <+by> hi greensnark
13:09 <+greensnark> Hiya
13:09 <+greensnark> Eek, wall of text email!
13:10 <+due> Sorry. :) I am ... verbose at the best of times, loquacious at the worst.
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13:10 <+kilobyte> hi snark-that-is-really-red-but-approaches-at-20%-c!
13:11 <+greensnark> That's a new one
13:11 <+greensnark> due: Just remove the 6-or-8-thick border around the level :P
13:11 <+due> greensnark: That didn't seem to work ...
13:11 <+greensnark> And your problems will vanish in a puff of logic
13:11 <+greensnark> What was the failure mode?
13:12 <+due> I think it's something to do with extend_map...
13:12 <+due> It made it really eensy.
13:13 <+greensnark> :P That does not explain things
13:13  * greensnark has to run.
13:13 <+greensnark> Laters
13:13 <+due> Sigh, okay!
13:15 <+due> Hey cool
13:15 <+due> It actually made the crashdump to the terminal.
13:29 <+by> hmm, I don't like the new stealth and traps&doors location in the skill display
13:29 <+kilobyte> agree, the mundane/magic split was nice
13:30 <+kilobyte> was there any real reason for equalizing the columns?
13:31 <+due> I don't mind it.
13:32 <+by> according to the commit, there's now an extra line, and there's some #ifdef'ed out code to print extra explanatory messages
13:32 <+kilobyte> yeah, I mean, do we need the extra line for anything?
13:36 <+due> Hm.
13:37 <+due> Finally.
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13:40 <+by> there's actually an extra message (61234c):
13:40 <+by> "Skills marked with '+' will train more 
13:40 <+by> +                    "quickly than those with '-'."
13:43 <+due> um
13:44 <+due> We've changed how TAG_MAJOR_VERSION works?
13:44 <+by> what?
13:45 <+kilobyte> no, I just changed it from an enum to a #define
13:45 <+kilobyte> its enumness was never used
13:45 <+due> hm
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14:00 <+due> Prose Edda?
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14:08 < CIA-81> due wizlab * r8ac66c3def16 /crawl-ref/source/dat/wizlab.des: Zonguldrok map, by Zaba.
14:08 < Mu_> yay
14:09 <+due> So... to-do.
14:09 <+due> Give Erinya's better threat.
14:10 <+due> Somehow condense dpeg's doroklohe tomb.
14:10 <+due> Alistair
14:10 <+due> borgjnor's
14:11 <+due> Iskendrun's, Lee's, Lehudib's, Maxwell's, Olgreb's, fix Ozocubu's, Cekugob's, Botono's (dpeg), Ukta's and The Alchemist's.
14:12 <+due> Zaba, Mu_, any ideas for these?
14:12 <+due> dpeg''s promised a Botono map, and Ozocubu's just needs a more interesting central area.
14:12 <+Zaba_> lemme see
14:13 < Mu_> i'd wanna do iskenderun's like a proper multi-floored tower
14:13 <+due> Yeah. Not possible at the minute, though.
14:13 <+kilobyte> remember about big open areas!
14:13 <+due> What about big open areas?
14:13 < Mu_> owja
14:13 <+due> Oh, exploding orb?
14:13 <+Zaba_> due, what's the theme for lee's?
14:13 <+kilobyte> IOOD really sucks without a place to turn around when you dodge it
14:13 <+due> from dpeg: # Lee's Rapid Deconstructor: golems and "monk" or otherwise unarmed creatures,
14:14 <+due> #    exploding features and exploding corpses. It's a timed vault, so you have
14:14 <+due> #    to get to the loot quickly and avoid the hordes of monsters.
14:14 <+due> Not as fleshed out as everything else.
14:14 <+due> Actually
14:14 <+Zaba_> hmm...
14:14 <+due> I'm going to do a slight variant on Zaba's zonguldrok map
14:14 <+due> A "tower" (circular building) in the center of a large open space.
14:14 <+due> And the  open space is littered with "guard statues".
14:14 <+Zaba_> just pick a different shape for the tower, then :P
14:14 <+due> Of course
14:15 <+kilobyte> there's no reason to not have multi-floor portal vaults, "portal vault" is already a sort of a branch
14:15 <+due> kilobyte: It can be done, but not persistently.
14:15 <+kilobyte> we'd need persistence until you leave it
14:15 <+due> Yeah.
14:15 <+due> Still, we can do the "base" of the tower now.
14:16 <+kilobyte> or, you could cheat with having levels done as different parts of the map
14:17 <+due> Yeah.
14:17 <+due> But that means weirdness visually, with mapping.
14:17 -!- eith [n=eith@86-40-254-250-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:17 <+due> We can use teleporter mechanism to move about, but it would hav et obe -TELE.
14:19 -!- Zaba__ [n=zaba@ip102.148.adsl.wplus.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:19 < Zaba__> what the heck
14:20 <+due> Your internet, it sucks.
14:21 < Mu_> duey
14:21 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
14:21 < Mu_> fix dis :f
14:22 <+due> yeah
14:22 <+due> I can't work it out
14:23 <+due> so I did a tower
14:23 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1748244
14:23 <+due> It kinda sucks though.
14:24 <+due> Maybe I could trim it.
14:24 <+due> Zaba_: http://pastebin.ca/1748246
14:25 < Zaba__> due, looks quite nice
14:25 <+due> Yeah, I actually really like it.
14:26 <+due> I think I'm going to make it purple metal though.
14:26 < Mu_> zonguldrok's map is cool as heck
14:28 <+due> I agree
14:28 <+due> I was skeptical at first, but yeah, it's great
14:29 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r29824143fa8c /crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Allow disintegrating trees.
14:29 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r4368944db524 /crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc beam.h): Trees don't reflect electricity; for bolts of lightning they ignite instead.
14:29 < CIA-81> due wizlab * r8151f0066221 /crawl-ref/source/dat/wizlab.des: Rudiments of an Iskenderun map.
14:29 <+due> kilobyte: I <3 trees, btw.
14:32 <+due> Oh man, this map is actually pretty ace.
14:32 <+kilobyte> they just suck when next to rock.  They need either open space or border made of trees themselves.
14:33 <+Keskitalo> Yay lightning-struck flaming treeeesss.
14:33 <+due> Funnily enough, I put trees and stone together very often.
14:33 < mr0t> Here's what I imagine an oklob plant would look like....
14:34 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
14:34 < mr0t> http://www.biolib.cz/IMG/GAL/18227.jpg
14:34 <+kilobyte> due: that weird construction outside the tower, what is it supposed to be?
14:34 < mr0t> w/ human for reference: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Welwitschia_mirabilis(1).jpg
14:36 <+due> kilobyte: Somewhere to hide monsters.
14:39 <+due> IOOD looks great with range.
14:40 < CIA-81> dolorous * rd458a7edd3ac /crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Fix [2826100]: Make silver statues unholy, to match demon summoners.
14:40 <+due> Hahaha, disparity.
14:43 <+due> !killsby -i crazy yiuf
14:43 < Henzell> 70 games for * (ikiller=crazy yiuf): 7x Eifeltrampel, 4x firem0nkey, 4x clouded, 4x TGW, 3x Vandal, 3x heteroy, 3x Zicher, 3x FilthyApe, 2x poop, 2x nubinia, 2x Karagy, 2x polystyrus, 2x KiloByte, 2x MarvinPA, 2x Ahrin, 2x quru, 1x Kyrris, 1x Omniguy, 1x crepe, 1x Xiberia, 1x wya, 1x saren, 1x Squeegy, 1x Alejandro, 1x bejuryu, 1x Baccano, 1x Stathol, 1x N78291, 1x fish, 1x Eronarn, 1x Cryptic, 1x...
14:43 <+due> 70!?
14:43 <+due> !lg * ikiller=crazy yiuf s=killer
14:43 < Henzell> 70 games for * (ikiller=crazy yiuf): 70x Crazy Yiuf
14:43 <+due> :DDD
14:44 <+due> !lg * killer=crazy yiuf
14:44 < Henzell> 70. Ahrin the Sneak (L3 NaAs), slain by Crazy Yiuf (a +4,+2 quarterstaff of chaos) on D:2 on 2010-01-09, with 162 points after 1307 turns and 0:03:30.
14:44 <+due> He's getting up there with Sigmund, isn't he?
14:44 < MarvinPA> people don't expect the chaos effects :(
14:44 < MarvinPA> electrocution got me
14:46 <+due> !killsby menkaure
14:46 < Henzell> 29 games for * (ckiller=menkaure): 2x Karagy, 2x clouded, 2x Eifeltrampel, 2x Baccano, 2x KiloByte, 2x zergloli, 1x heteroy, 1x LordSloth, 1x FilthyApe, 1x valrus, 1x Lemuel, 1x minmay, 1x hyperbolic, 1x polystyrus, 1x randart, 1x Leibowitz, 1x trucutruX, 1x TGW, 1x DrPraetor, 1x Vizrt, 1x larasium, 1x MarvinPA, 1x Ahrin
14:46 <+due> Ah, good, he's catching up.
14:46 <+due> I think Torment makes him a fascinating early threat.
14:46 <+due> It's actually the one instance where you want to have less HP whenyou fight him :)
14:59 <+greensnark> due: What happened to the uniques you owe me
15:00 <+greensnark> Yet another Lair game without a hint of the twins
15:00 <+greensnark> It's time you let them grow up and take care of themselves, instead of needlessly hiding them from my games :P
15:01 < CIA-81> due wizlab * r9c8f9c870fcb /crawl-ref/source/dat/wizlab.des: And preliminary threat for Iskenderun wizlab.
15:01 <+greensnark> !tv * Shoal
15:02 < Henzell> 60. culka, XL18 DDNe, T:49488 requested for FooTV.
15:02 <+greensnark> "17 water elementals"
15:02 <+greensnark> Holy cow
15:03 <+greensnark> Most hilarious Ilsuiw kill ever
15:05 <+Keskitalo> due: Unholy silver is just as good as holy silver.
15:06 <+greensnark> But is it as good as Long John Silver
15:08 <+Keskitalo> I recall dpeg opposes pirates in Crawl. :/
15:10 <+by> even a pirate unique?
15:10 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit []
15:11 <+greensnark> Man, that culka splat is a classic
15:12 <+Keskitalo> I'm sure we can overwhelm him though! ;)
15:12 <+Keskitalo> Sunken Ship portal vault could be cool.
15:12 <+greensnark> Arrr!
15:13 <+greensnark> Sunken ship vault would have air bubbles that moved around as the ship is rocked by the waves
15:13 <+by> :)
15:13 <+greensnark> And a nautilus unique as the boss
15:18 <+Keskitalo> yes!
15:20 <+greensnark> A nautilus wearing an eyepatch
15:20 <+greensnark> dpeg only objects to human pirates, I'm sure he'll be happy with cephalopod pirates
15:29 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:32 <+Keskitalo> Let's just not tell him a popular movie from recent years practically has one.
15:32 <+Keskitalo> Though that one walks on two legs, so maybe it doesn't count.
15:33 <+Keskitalo> Mmmm, mollusks.
15:33 <+kilobyte> well, what's exactly the problem with pirates?  They fit the Shoals damn well.
15:42 < AceTetra> put it behind glass and give it greater demon and paralyse
15:46 < Xiberia> you devs are all evil
15:46 < Xiberia> you're all going to hell when you die!
15:49 -!- Zaba__ is now known as Zaba
15:49 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba] by ChanServ
15:49 <+Zaba> well
15:49 <+Zaba> knowing that is just motivation for making more and more evil stuff while they ain't in hell
16:01 <+greensnark> !tell Napkin dgamelaunch welcome screen still says that only stable games are safe.
16:01 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let Napkin know.
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16:04 <+by> greensnark: there seem to be quite a lot of the "deepest" shoals monsters on Shoal:1 already
16:04 <+by> maybe move siren/aquamancer/impaler/javelineer 
16:05 <+by> argh
16:05 <+by> some of ... to mlev += 4
16:05 < cbus> @players
16:05 < Henzell> 6 players: FilthyApe (L25 HuCr @ Shoal:2, T:120090), nmf (L2 MDFi @ D:1, T:285), polystyrus (L12 SpCK @ Lair:1, T:27259), rob (L16 DDTh @ Lair:4, T:96190), Stathol (L14 SpEn @ Lair:1, T:52108), Zicher (L12 MiBe @ Lair:2, T:15525)
16:07 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r1c8e80d2d8c2 /crawl-ref/source/tags.h: Make TAG_MAJOR_VERSION a #define not a pansy enum, so you can use it in #if.
16:08 < cbus> how is filthyape getting AC:38 and EV:27? :D
16:09 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r082e5d6cf970 /crawl-ref/source/ (5 files): Remove electric missiles.
16:09 < cbus> vhaat?
16:09 < cbus> no tazers? :D
16:09 <+greensnark> Sirens are way too common because the water code places them
16:09 <+by> ah
16:10 <+greensnark> Looks like there's a 40% chance of Shoal:1 having no boss merfolk
16:10 <+greensnark> Let me tweak it a bit
16:11 <+by> my game's been really slow, so maybe I got random monster spawns
16:11 <+greensnark> Maybe I should just peg their rarity back a bit
16:11 < Napkin> yes, on purpose :D
16:11 < Henzell> Napkin: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
16:11 <+by> I had a bunch of sirens so far (I think) and two javelineers
16:11 < Napkin> didn't want to change it to "only stable games are stable" ;)
16:12 <+by> it may just be the way that monster placement works -- Snake:1 isn't that much safer than deeper snake pit either
16:12 <+greensnark> Yeah, and the boss merfolk keep things lively
16:13 <+by> the plain merfolk were quite enough to keep me occupied
16:14 <+greensnark> :)
16:19 < CIA-81> due wizlab * r6b5fba054e42 /crawl-ref/ (375 files in 33 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into wizlab
16:21 < CIA-81> greensnark * rb091697fdc5c /crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc mon-pick.cc): Make boss merfolk and sirens rarer (rob).
16:22 <+by> @?? merfolk javelineer
16:22 < Gretell> merfolk javelineer (m) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 65-91 | AC/EV: 0/15 | Damage: 16, 17 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(69) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1208.
16:27 < purge> greensnark so i saw you haven't splatted yet
16:27 < purge> you've made it to lair:1 once again! waiting for a new patch? :P
16:29 < purge> my game has reached a stand still i almost feel like quitting
16:30 <+by> @whereis purge
16:30 < Gretell> purge the Axe Maniac (L23 DSFi), a worshipper of Makhleb, saved on Hive:1 on 2010-01-12 after 101604 turns.
16:30 <+by> just run for the orb?
16:30 < purge> no rElec no rCorr and have done everything but hells/slime/zot
16:30 < purge> pure melee
16:30 < purge> tried hells and got my ass kicked both times
16:31 < purge> once by a tormentor, and the other by dispater with his 40 ac
16:31 <+greensnark> Lair looks so much better now
16:32 < purge> tormentors should torment alot less :|
16:33 < purge> by: i was thinking of just going for the orb, but then i realized i have never found teleport control and i would want to get apportation....
16:33 < purge> just feels like work :p
16:34 < Ashenzari> Requesting wiki access (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=397) by Porkchop
16:34 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@88-148-215-114.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:56 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:56 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r02dff3083187 /crawl-ref/source/mon-abil.cc: Don't make slimes split if they could instead move closer to their foe.
16:57 -!- Iainuki [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has quit []
16:57 -!- Netsplit kubrick.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Henzell
16:59 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Henzell
17:04 < Ashenzari> Request to make early Jiyva overflow altars less punishing (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=398) by Porkchop
17:05 < syllogism> those arent overflow altars are they
17:05 < syllogism> nice jpeg sending commits from the future
17:31 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r0c04d8ad550a /crawl-ref/source/ (10 files in 3 dirs): Also add wave tiles for deep water. The water masks still look wonky.
17:31 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r882ea23bcf06 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (9 files in 2 dirs): Make water bubbles in Shoals' deep water "animation" rarer.
17:36 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-159-159.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:41 -!- Noeda is now known as Adeon
17:51 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:55 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-170-64.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
18:16 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r84a9fb36ae90 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-dngn.txt: Also reduce weights for the special flesh wall tiles.
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20:00 < Ashenzari> Imp insults do not wake monsters (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=399) by Stathol
20:01 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r1767660614a6 /crawl-ref/source/ (exclude.cc view.cc): Update exclusion annotations for flamethrower exclusions.
20:01 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r25634a702761 /crawl-ref/source/ (cloud.cc enum.h spl-mis.cc): Add new killer_type KILL_MISCAST whose clouds don't autoexclude.
20:01 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * re4a2ae96f75e /crawl-ref/source/tilesdl.cc: Don't display chunk effect icons for skeletons.
20:01 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r307197d96b8f /crawl-ref/source/exclude.cc: Autoannotate exclusions placed on staircases with "up/downstairs".
20:01 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r65790ee97793 /crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/items.txt: Tweak ring of regeneration's description.
20:02 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:05 < Napkin> Eronarn?
20:09 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."]
20:15 < Ashenzari> Odd water/lava lake vault (65790ee9) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=400) by jpeg
20:20 < Ashenzari> Distance sorting "find" results is broken (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=401) by Stathol
20:26 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r0b63c742e449 /crawl-ref/source/ng-init.cc: Change Slime Pits starting range from 5-8 to 6-8.
20:35 < Ashenzari> Inexplicable transloc energy on stairways (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=402) by Stathol
20:50 <+doy> i keep mistyping vault for value at work
20:50 <+doy> it's irritating
21:32 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["."]
21:49 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@88-148-215-114.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
21:51 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r8f574480e681 /crawl-ref/source/ (item_use.cc tilereg.cc): Without Spellcasting skill, make L-click on book call read_book instead.
21:51 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rf91590d9812b /crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Make append_spells() align spell levels correctly.
21:51 < TGW> where do you work?
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22:13 < Eronarn> Napkin?
22:18 < Napkin> Hi Eronarn 
22:18 < Napkin> Just wanted to make sure you saw PigVomit/Porkchop's request for wiki permissions
22:19 < Eronarn> just woke up, so no
22:20 < Eronarn> will get before i leave for class if you haven't gotten it already
22:21 < Napkin> Oh, I'd like you or dpeg to decide about permissions in the wiki
22:23 < Napkin> I just changed renamed his account name when he asked me
22:23 < Napkin> s/changed//
22:24 < TGW> in what time zone is eronarn?
22:26 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:28 < TGW> also
22:28 < TGW> is it intentional that trees look like omegas in IBM/
22:28 < TGW> this happens locally and on cdo, and I can't imagine what I would have done to cause it
22:29 < Napkin> what else would you suggest?
22:29 < TGW> 7
22:29 <+doy> glyphs are pretty easy to remap
22:30 < Napkin> out of curiousity - why do you play dec charset?
22:30 < TGW> on my side?
22:30 < TGW> napkin: I use IBM now
22:30 < Napkin> sorry, ibm, i mean
22:30 < Napkin> yes, why?
22:30 < TGW> 'cause that is what I had
22:30 < TGW> !rc cateater
22:30 < Henzell> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rcfiles/CatEater.crawlrc
22:30 < Napkin> oh.. just because used to it then?
22:30 < Napkin> *you are used to it then?
22:31 < TGW> hmm, I could try it
22:31 < TGW> it's just that I have to do it myself, whereas cateater already had the pretty ibm and dec ones done
22:32 < Napkin> ah :)
22:34 < TGW> also, if I used unicode I would spent the rest of the month trying to figure out cool ways to use all this useless crap
22:34 < TGW> spend*
22:34 < Napkin> lot of work put into that config
22:34 < Napkin> heh
22:34 < TGW> yeah :D
22:34 < Napkin> but much of it is default already
22:35 < TGW> like, already I'm going to be wondering what I can use the airplane for
22:35 < Napkin> lol
22:35 < Napkin> i mainly use unicode to have nice water waves
22:35 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rfb7b7bbe3833 /crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Fix stash tracker not being fully up-to-date at game start.
22:35 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r4bfee3ed9c73 /crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Actually commit 0000134 fix (upstairs not marked untaken at game start).
22:36 < TGW> is your rc on cao?
22:37 < Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/configs/trunk/Napkin.rc
22:37 < TGW> cool
22:41 < TGW> !rc
22:41 < Henzell> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rcfiles/TGW.crawlrc
22:43 < Napkin> so much defined which is default.. at least for ascii and unicode
22:43 < Napkin> at least the last 4 lines
22:43 < Napkin> cset_* i mean
22:44 < Napkin> but ok.. having them listed makes it easier to change them
22:44 < TGW> yeah I think that was the idea
22:47 < TGW> am I looking at the wrong chart?
22:48 < TGW> your item_orb is set to xe9 and that string doesn't show up anywhere for me
22:48 < Napkin> ascii?
22:48 < Eronarn> TGW: i'm east coast US
22:49 < TGW> oh lol
22:49 < TGW> reading helps
22:49 < TGW> perhaps I should have this conversation in ##crawl
22:49 < TGW> I just noticed that
22:49 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * ra0aa135f0ce4 /crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Handle KILL_MISCAST in _killer_type_name().
22:49 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r93b425987df9 /crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ability.txt: Update Chei's ability being called Slouch rather than Ruinous Time.
22:53 < Napkin> then you wouldn't have talked with me :-P
23:07 -!- Keskitalo [n=einokesk@tuomi.oulu.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
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23:10 <+kilobyte> Napkin: what would you think about autodetecting Unicode vs non-Unicode in DGL?  All other platforms already have full control over charset (Unix has LC_CTYPE, win NT+ has 16 bit console functions, win95 has code pages, DOS has definable characters).
23:11 <+kilobyte> Napkin: we can't detect specific charset for ancient ones, just Unicode vs not, but that's the primary concern anyway
23:12 <+doy> my terminal supports unicode, but i think crawl's unicode charset is ugly
23:12 < TGW> um
23:12 < TGW> did jpeg just revert ruinous time -> slouch?
23:12 <+doy> not sure if that's a valid argument against that though
23:13 < TGW> or is that a description update
23:14 < Napkin> telnet doesn't support that, kilobyte - for ssh, yes, maybe
23:14 <+doy> could guess over telnet based on TERM
23:15 <+doy> but that would probably screw up too much
23:15 <+kilobyte> Napkin: http://sprunge.us/bHAa
23:15 < Napkin> content TERM is totally independent from unicode support
23:15 <+kilobyte> you can write a character that takes more than one byte, then ask for the terminal to report the cursor position
23:16 <+kilobyte> if something gets badly wrong, you won't get the answer but a short timeout should take care of this
23:16 <+doy> should at least be using terminfo there
23:17 <+doy> rather than hardcoding the escape codes
23:17 < Napkin> how could youuse terminfo, doy?
23:17 <+doy> Napkin: all terminfo needs is the TERM value
23:17 <+kilobyte> doy: TERM doesn't include any information about Unicode or not
23:17 < Napkin> TERM is "xterm" - what does tell you about unicode support?
23:17 <+doy> kilobyte: yeah, i know
23:18 <+doy> i just mean for the "report cursor position" code
23:18  * Napkin sighs *
23:18 <+doy> unless that's one of those ones that's actually standardized?
23:19 <+kilobyte> doy: terminals which lack vt100 compatibility have died out around 1980, and for more advanced capabilities, TERM is useless anyway
23:20 <+doy> well
23:20 <+doy> there are some that it's useful for
23:20 <+kilobyte> doy: for example, Solaris still doesn't understand "linux".  Or, to avoid being called "glass ttys", everything else claims to be either "xterm" (xterm, putty, gnome terminal, konsole, guake, ...) or "rxvt" (rxvt, aterm, wterm, ...)
23:20 <+doy> this probably isn't one though
23:21 <+kilobyte> this spoken as someone who coded several terminal emulators :)
23:21 <+doy> i'm aware
23:21 <+doy> just saying, it's not totally useless... it'll be more correct than just hardcoding things in any case
23:21 <+doy> even if it's not perfect
23:22 <+kilobyte> (well, kind of terminal emulators.  a MUD client, a ttyrec player, a write-only ajaxterm thingy)
23:22 <+doy> i've done plenty of terminal stuff myself(: (although no terminal emulators yet, but it is on my todo list)
23:24 <+kilobyte> uhm no, I learned it the hard way that trusting TERM tends to hurt badly, while the only terminal which doesn't support the basics was Windows3.1's telnet.exe, may it rot in hell
23:24 <+doy> but not trusting TERM also breaks things
23:25 <+kilobyte> for example: only relatively recently termcap entry for "xterm" on Linux received support for colors.
23:26 <+kilobyte> if you use only local programs (ensuring the termcap database is of the same system), you're partially safe.  But woe if you try to ssh.  Even Debian<->Red Hat disagrees, and if there's Solaris or such around...
23:27 <+doy> well, that's why i keep my own ~/.terminfo
23:27 <+doy> the terminfo concept is inherently broken for non-local things
23:27 <+kilobyte> the most epic failure is Linux<->IRIX, both ways you won't get _spaces_.  Alltextinfull-screenprogramslookslikethis.
23:29 <+doy> but "modify your terminfo file" is much easier than "use an xterm-compatible terminal"
23:29 <+doy> at least if you look things up in terminfo and things break, the problem is fixable
23:30 <+doy> if you hardcode escape codes and things break, people on those terminals are just screwed
23:30 <+kilobyte> another case in point: serial consoles.  No TERM.  Real serial consoles are long dead, but qemu still uses it for output in headless mode.
23:30 <+kilobyte> that's why you use the basics.
23:31 <+doy> that's not really acceptable for a lot of programs
23:31 <+kilobyte> basics as in "all of vt100 except for non-charcell extensions, plus colors: 1m, 30-37m, 40-47m"
23:33 <+kilobyte> the only thing you can't get this way are: setting the window title, using 256 colors.  The rest can be emulated, at worst you will lose a bit of eficiency.  And since most full-screen programs have woeful efficiency even though they use terminfo, this is not an argument.
23:33 <+doy> not really true
23:33 <+doy> things like screen/tmux are ridiculous about scrolling if those extensions aren't available
23:34 <+kilobyte> vt100 can scroll a part of the screen, as long as it encompasses the whole width horizontally
23:35 <+doy> right, both screen and tmux support horizontal splits too though
23:35 <+kilobyte> does the xterm terminfo entry include these extensions, even?
23:36 <+doy> well, tmux and screen both use the 'screen' terminfo entry
23:36 <+doy> well
23:36 <+doy> i guess that's internally, i'm not sure what things do externally
23:37 <+doy> but my point from earlier still stands though
23:37 <+doy> if it doesn't, that's fixable
23:37 <+doy> upgrading your terminfo files is really not that hard
23:39 <+kilobyte> for _you_, it isn't.  For users, even moderately technical ones, it's a "I'll use foo instead, it works while yours bar doesn't".
23:39 <+kilobyte> and we're talking about code sitting on CDO.  DGL has no way of accessing the user's ~/.terminfo
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23:41 <+doy> well, i haven't really been talking about cdo for a while, considering that the 'get cursor position' escape code is from vt100
23:42 <+doy> for cdo, my opinion is to just use LANG/etc over ssh, and keep it the same as currently otherwise
23:42 <+kilobyte> I did some serious research on what is the lowest common denominator, and have data on which escapes work everywhere and which don't.  The common set is quite small, but you can build on it.
23:42 <+doy> that's the other part of the problem
23:42 <+doy> knowing what works everywhere isn't trivial
23:43 <+kilobyte> putty won't have LANG/LC_*, but of course, if these variables are set, we're home.  We can use my method otherwise.
23:44 <+kilobyte> knowing what works is a matter of trying every single OS and terminal emulator you can get your mitts on, and checking there
23:45 <+kilobyte> I did this research ~10 years ago, and most weird terminals have died out since.  And even then, that stinky telnet.exe was the only black sheep.
23:46 <+doy> yeah, windows telnet is horrible
23:46 < Ashenzari> Temple vault can still disconnect map regions (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=403) by Kyrris
23:47 <+kilobyte> I mean win3.1 one, it's in win95 as well but not NT 3.1 and later.  These have a non utterly brain-dead one.
23:48 <+doy> huh, could have sworn putty handled LANG
23:48 <+doy> wonder what i was thinking of
23:48 <+sorear> putty also has the interesting property that it claims TERM=xterm but uses none of the same keyboard codes as X.org R7 xterm
23:48 <+sorear> it needs to rot in hell for this and the ~50 lines of kludge workaround code in Crawl it required
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23:50 <+kilobyte> yeah, that too, but it's actually xterm and gnome-terminal which have it wrong, putty does what vt100/vt220 did, and rxvt, linux(console), aterm, wterm, Solaris-whatever-thingy-was-it and so on match that.
23:51 <+kilobyte> of course, xterm being the biggest player means it does have its clout
23:51 <+doy> well, given that we're talking about the 'xterm' file, not the 'vt100' file...
23:52 <+kilobyte> fortunately only Kpad+,Kpad-,Kpad/ conflict
23:52 <+doy> but yeah, it'd be sweet at this point if everyone could agree on something
23:52 <+kilobyte> definitely
23:52 < TGW> that would suck
23:53 <+sorear> kilobyte: numpad numbers also don't work if you use putty to talk to an unkludged curses program
23:54 < Eronarn> since both sorear/kilo are here, what're your thoughts on output libraries for roguelikes? was looking here http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Output_libraries
23:54 <+kilobyte> sorear: that's because the terminfo lacks an entry for switching to the "application keypad" mode
23:54 < Eronarn> hexagon support from RLLib sounds nice but "isn't being developed anymore" sounds not nice
23:54 <+sorear> Eronarn: of all the ones I've seen, libtermcap is the least braindamaged
23:55 <+kilobyte> Eronarn: uhm, what's the point in text output that doesn't work over ssh?
23:56 <+sorear> Eronarn: crawl actually uses conio.h, with a special emulation layer that gets used on non-DOS platforms
23:56 <+doy> why are both termcap and terminfo still around, anyway
23:57 <+sorear> because curses implements DWIM very badly
23:57 <+sorear> oh, 'both'
23:58 <+sorear> terminfo is AFAICT primarily a GNUism (although not a GNU invention)
23:58 <+sorear> the BSDs will have nothing to do with it