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00:07 <+due> I should get an award for petulance.
00:07 -!- mrawt [n=mr0t@ppp-70-132-140-16.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
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00:08 < TGW> is there no way to set a specific item (not a type like cset does) to another glyph?
00:08 < TGW> or just monsters?
00:08 <+due> No.
00:08 <+due> There isn't a way to change any glyph at the minute.
00:09 <+due> Well, at least in a sane manner.
00:09 < TGW> is that viewed as a problem?
00:09 <+due> I don't think so.
00:09 <+due> What are you wishing to change?
00:09 < TGW> different glyph for bad scrolls and potion
00:09 < TGW> s
00:10 <+due> In your own configuration?
00:11 < TGW> yeah
00:11 <+due> Oh, hm.
00:11 <+due> You can change monster glyphs in that regard.
00:11 < TGW> right, that's why I find it weird
00:17 <+due> I'm pretty sure the get-glyph function references options either before or after it references the base monster type.
00:20 < Vandal> due, I may have just spread some misinformation
00:21 < Vandal> Does Dex help you overcome monster HD checks on Blowguns?
00:21 < Vandal> I know enchants and Throwing skill does
00:22 <+due> No.
00:22 < Vandal> So Dex just helps with initial accuracy?
00:22 < Vandal> and speed maybe?
00:23 <+due> Yeah.
00:24 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-161-236.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:25 < Vandal> Thanks
00:26 <+due> Twinge!
00:26 <+due> @??cerebov
00:26 < Gretell> Cerebov (&) | Speed: 10 | HD: 21 | Health: 650 | AC/EV: 30/8 | Damage: 60 | Flags: demonic, see invisible | Res: magic(168), hellfire+++, poison | XP: 15000 | Sp: fire storm, iron shot, haste, greater demon.
00:27 <+due> Twinge: What's the stats of Throwing 27, Blowgun +9, for HD21; do you know off the tpo of your head?
00:31 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-172-149.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:31 <+due> multiple Twinge_!
00:32 < Vandal> oh coolness
00:32 < Vandal> new monster xp table is in?
00:32 < Vandal> :D
00:33 <+due> Yup.
00:34 < TGW> due: also, what's the deal with meph's explosion?
00:34 <+due> What do you mean, what's the deal?
00:34 < TGW> it's forced to waffle clouds, even if I have cloud set to something else
00:34 <+due> Hm.
00:34 <+due> Now that is odd.
00:34 <+due> How about firestorm?
00:34 < TGW> have not tried
00:36 < Vandal> Ponderous works on Naga right?
00:36 < Vandal> LIke, it slows them even more?
00:36 < TGW> yes
00:36 < Vandal> Yay :D
00:36 < TGW> ##crawl is that way
00:37 <+due> Hm.
00:37 < Vandal> TGW I am aware :D
00:37 <+due> It uses place_cloud, so there's no reason why it shouldn't use overwritten clouds.
00:37 <+due> TGW: Is any other cloud using the thing you have it set to?
00:37 < TGW> due: hrm?
00:39 <+due> Is it just meph cloud, or is it every cloud?
00:39 < TGW> you can only set "cloud"
00:39 < TGW> it's a general thing
00:39 <+due> Okay.
00:39 < TGW> I'm not sure if it happens with other explosions though
00:39 <+due> Is it *working* on anything else?
00:39 <+due> Besides mephitic cloud?
00:40 < TGW> have not tested
00:40 <+due> Then I find it more likely that it's not working at all, rather than just not working with mephitic cloud.
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00:42 < TGW> should I mantis it up?
00:45 < Cryp71c> What's going on with meph?
00:46 < MarvinPA> heh, you can make poisoned exploding sling bullets
00:47 < Cryp71c> due, I commented on this bug report last night: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=121
00:47 < Cryp71c> Its corrected already, and I can't close it or anything
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00:48 <+due> MarvinPA: Ah, thanks for the reminder. Meant to swat that.
00:48 < MarvinPA> aww
00:48 < MarvinPA> :P
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00:48 < MarvinPA> yeah, i was wondering if you were going to keep flame+poison available
00:49 < MarvinPA> or just have it as a special case for the unique?
00:49 <+due> dpeg wants it special-cased for Nessos.
00:49 < ogaz> why?
00:49 <+due> To make him uniquer?
00:49 < MarvinPA> that makes venom launchers a bit more consistent at least, then
00:49 < ogaz> poison flame has been around forever, it's just that no one cared until recently :/
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00:51 <+due> Hey, cool. I made haloes interact with gloom.
00:52 < TGW> cool!
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00:52 < TGW> what about sunlight
00:53 <+due> Already does.
00:53 < TGW> cool!
00:55 < purge> so due: how are those treasure troves coming? ;)
00:55 <+due> purge: Not bad. :)
00:56  * due pokes doy.
00:56 < TGW> what are you using gloom for?
00:57 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-174-244.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:57 <+due> Two statues that generate gloom with a boss in the middle for a portal vault, I think.
00:57  * doy pokes due
00:59 <+due> doy: Lair++!
01:00 <+doy> due: i'm still tweaking!
01:00 < Henzell> doy: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
01:00 <+doy> !messages
01:00 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (1h 52m 24s ago): Can you send me a mail with the formulas where the ruination parameter enters? Also, what about having some rock walls be green and described as "moss-covered rock wall"?
01:01 <+doy> due: any comments in particular?
01:02 <+due> doy: No, it looks good so far; I like the idea of moss-covered walls, though.
01:02 <+doy> yeah
01:03 <+due> Oh man.
01:04 < CIA-81> due * rb62a72ee0d29 /crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: Make haloes interact sanely with gloom.
01:04 < CIA-81> due * r66a603dc8498 /crawl-ref/source/dat/crypt.des: Set the glass_crypt liches free when you get to the loot.
01:04 <+doy> yay
01:05  * due cackles.
01:05 <+doy> greensnark is write, level generation is a fun part of the code
01:05 <+doy> (:
01:05 <+doy> *right
01:05 <+due> "fun" or fun?
01:06 <+doy> fun!
01:06 <+doy> i have lots of ideas!
01:06 <+doy> (:
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01:06 <+due> awesome!
01:07 <+due> Oh, bugger.
01:07 < CIA-81> due * rce1ef6f9fbcd /crawl-ref/source/dat/crypt.des: Remove accidentally committed test weight on glass_crypt.
01:08 <+due> Whoops. :0
01:08 <+doy> !tell greensnark you're right, level generation is fun!
01:08 < Henzell> doy: OK, I'll let greensnark know.
01:08 <+due> doy: I've been trying to translate city-level into Lua so that I can make Vaults fun.
01:08 <+due> It... does not work so well. :/
01:08 <+doy> yeah, that's what i was going to look into next
01:09 <+due> Want to see  what I've done so far?
01:09 <+doy> i think i'm going to make the cross level more awesome first to learn the lua api
01:09 <+due> doy: http://sprunge.us/VWKM
01:09 <+due> It doens't work, though.
01:09 <+doy> and then see if i can convert some c++ ones
01:09 < TGW> is monster-specific AI a possible thing?
01:10 <+doy> TGW: what do you mean?
01:10 <+due> I tried to make a shortcut and place doors with the original make_room function, but apparently I keep making issues with sizes and get constant "y of 70 is too great" errors.
01:10 <+due> TGW: All AI is monste-rspecific?
01:10 < TGW> due: to specific monsters, not specific to monsters :|
01:10 <+due> :p
01:10 < TGW> I think giant eyeballs should flee if it doesn't see any other enemies
01:10 <+due> And yes, I hop eso.
01:11 <+due> Hey, cool idea.
01:11 < TGW> if they*
01:11 < TGW> if they don't*
01:11 <+due> Please FR it?
01:11 < TGW> sure
01:11 <+doy> monster ai changes will require a good amount more discussion than most frs
01:11 <+doy> because they have a good possibility of balance implications
01:11 <+doy> but yeah, file it
01:12 < ogaz> also, spoiler implications
01:12 <+due> Not necessarily.
01:12 <+due> Well, I suppose channging the AI for existant monsters, yes.
01:12 <+due> But dowan and Duvessa need to stick together more, likewise Pikel and his slaves.
01:12 <+due> And the spirit holy monster will basically be permanently running/blinking awya from the player.
01:13 <+doy> yes, ai changes for uniques is more acceptable
01:13 <+due> Maurice could also do with more running away.
01:13 < ogaz> it's not the same thing obviously, but the melting glass thing for crypt:5 worries me for that reason
01:13 <+due> ogaz: Yes, I was just wondering about that.
01:13 <+due> I'm going to play around with descriptions and a few other things.
01:14 <+doy> maybe make the wall tiles "shimmering" or something
01:14 <+doy> the glass tiles i mean
01:15 <+due> Yeah.
01:15 <+due> And "grinding noises'.
01:15 < TGW> "You hear less shimmering."
01:15 <+doy> (:
01:16 < TGW> or, make the message grinding noises and make the glass "ungrinding glass"
01:16 < Ashenzari> Giant eyeballs should flee when alone (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=384) by TGW
01:17 <+due> "The liches press expectantly against the glass."
01:17 < TGW> "The liches wish the glass would stop shimmering."
01:19 < MarvinPA> surely they're happy behind their glass, safely throwing summons at you :P
01:19 < ogaz> honestly, the liches behind glass vault is my least favorite anyway. Maybe eliminate it entirely? :P
01:20 <+due> ogaz: It's staying.
01:20 < Zannick> Are we moving from sourceforge to mantis for FRs, BRs, and patches, or supporting both?
01:20 <+due> We could even lockk the doors as well, and only release them when you kill the liches.
01:20 <+due> That's nasty.
01:20 <+due> Zannick: Mantis, all the way; sourceforge is only open because nobody has closed it yet.
01:20 < st_> and no teleports out? :P
01:20 < Zannick> due: ah, i guess i should be looking over there more often, then
01:22 < TGW> mantis <3
01:28 <+due> st_: Of course. <3
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01:37 < purge> mara :O
01:37 <+due> oooh
01:37  * due tunes in
01:38 < purge> lol too ez :)
01:38 <+due> :|
01:38 < purge> sorry went ez mode
01:38 <+due> That's okay.
01:38 < purge> since i never faced her :D
01:38 <+due> Him. ;)
01:38 <+due> Someone was apparnetly complaining about aizul on Sa.
01:38 <+due> And said that he showed up on D:9, which... as far as I am concerned, is an exaggeration; it's not phsically possible for that to happen.
01:38 < purge> well at least i can smirk at him for having a girls name
01:39 <+due> It's not a girl's name.
01:39 < purge> where i live it is :)
01:39 <+due> Where do you live?
01:39 < purge> MI
01:39 <+due> Mara is an evil male demon in all the contexts I've run into him.
01:39 < Zannick> i've heard it as a female name before, can't remember where
01:39 <+due> Mara Jade.
01:40 < purge> http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Mara
01:40 < MarvinPA> due: i saw aizul on d:9
01:41 <+due> MarvinPA: I ... have no idea how that's even possible?
01:41 <+doy> i've only ever heard mara as a girl's name
01:41 <+due> purge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_(demon)
01:41 < MarvinPA> oh hang on
01:41 <+due> MarvinPA: He's set to show up at D:13 and after.
01:41 < MarvinPA> maybe not, let me check my log
01:41 <+due> D:9 is a *massive* bug if that's the case.
01:42 < CIA-81> doy * rf92b4559098c /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: more lair tweaking
01:42 < TGW> due: D:9 is a compliment
01:42 < MarvinPA> sorry, yeah
01:42 < TGW> "he kicked my ass so hard I felt like I was on D:9"
01:42 < MarvinPA> that was a different game where i died to poison :P
01:42 < MarvinPA> it was d:14
01:42 <+due> Ah.
01:43 < TGW> I just pointed it out because you were admiring !lg * killer=aizul for a while
01:43 < MarvinPA> but it was my fault i died to him, i could've escaped
01:43 <+due> TGW: Aizul's my baby. <3
01:43 < TGW> due: what species are you again
01:43 <+due> Developer.
01:43 <+due> It's a type of shape-shifter.
01:43 < TGW> serpentine in form, and magical?
01:44 <+due> Anyway, Aizul, Mara, Dowan and Duvessa, Menkaure, Gastronok... there are a lot of new uniques that I've coded.
01:44 <+due> Pikel!
01:44 < MarvinPA> almost all your uniques have killed me :(
01:44 <+due> MarvinPA: :> Excellent.
01:45 < MarvinPA> all except mara and dowan/duvessa, i think :P
01:45 <+due> Well, ther'es no spoiler-y stuff with the twins now.
01:45 <+due> doy: Maybe a few too many doors?
01:46 <+due> doy: Tune in to my termcast?
01:46 <+doy> your termcast isn't up
01:46 <+due> Oh
01:46 <+due> Is not
01:46 <+due> *Is now
01:47 <+doy> ah, yeah, i was just looking into that issue
01:47 <+due> Is it supposed to break down special rooms?
01:47 <+due> :D
01:47 <+doy> i'm not sure where special rooms are generated
01:47 <+due> Just get the special room builder to mask the walls as MMT_VAULT, and don't touch those?
01:47 <+due> _special_room on 3771 of dungeon.cc, no?
01:48 <+doy> ah, it looks like it already does mark their walls
01:49 <+due> Bees are probably okay, but jelly rooms... :)
01:49 <+due> doy: Either way, it looks excellent.
01:49 < CIA-81> pointless_ * re0d3f22102f9 /crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc godabil.cc): Redo evolution UI and costs
01:49 < CIA-81> pointless_ * r63a5074a9665 /crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc describe.cc religion.cc): Adjust the activation cost of evolution and change Fedhas ability order
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02:02 < CIA-81> doy * rf0872643a9e8 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: don't ruin special room walls
02:03 <+doy> alright, i'm pretty happy with the current state
02:03 <+due> hooray!
02:03 <+doy> (although feedback is still welcome)
02:04  * due nod.
02:05 <+due> The city layout is immensely more complicated than I expected, translating it was not easy :(
02:05 <+doy> did you finish?
02:05 <+due> No
02:05 <+due> I kept running into issues and decided to say "fuck it" and go to bed.
02:05 <+due> did I link you to what I'd done?
02:06 <+due> I tried to be smart and make the make_box function do doors as well, instead of having to spend hours translating the make_room function into l-dgnbld compatible.
02:08 <+due> (For reference, http://sprunge.us/YYGX)
02:09 <+doy> i haven't even started looking into the lua api yet, so that doesn't mean all that much to me(:
02:09 <+due> :D
02:09 <+due> Well, it's pretty simple, to be honest.
02:09 <+due> But instead of working directly on the dungeon
02:09 <+due> It works on the actual vault instead.
02:09 <+kilobyte> due: that bunch of kobolds of you in laute Vaults is not going to fool anyone into thinking they're harmless :p
02:09 <+kilobyte> s/you/yours/
02:10 <+due> :D
02:10 <+due> But I <3 chaos kobolds.
02:10 <+due> Did you get it?
02:12 <+kilobyte> yay a glowing quick blade... it would be überness for a short blades char
02:12 <+due> It could be distort or chaos :)
02:13 <+kilobyte> if the altar is Lugonu's, it can't be chaos
02:13 <+due> Yeah.
02:13 <+due> they can be plain, too.
02:13 <+due> Okay, back in a bit.
02:14 <+kilobyte> ah right
02:16 < CIA-81> due * r7ddd2e70686d /crawl-ref/source/dat/altar.des: Make blue smoke blue in due_chaos_kobolds.
02:17 <+kilobyte> due: cloud_type="blue smoke" already sets the colour.  Blue smoke is by default, well, blue.
02:17 < TGW> why are my trees omegas?
02:17 < purge> as for my feedback on rods -- they really just aren't very useful when you find them. I think they should have just enough pp to shoot 1 shot of a spell and drop earlier so they can be used as an opener to a fight or to kill a runner
02:18 < purge> and maybe only have single spells on them unless they are randart rods
02:22 <+kilobyte> The bumblebee shaped shifter changes into a shapeshifter!
02:23 < Zannick> yep. that's the "real" form of a shifter.
02:25 <+kilobyte> hmm... meeting Mara means it may be a good idea to forget many spells...
02:43 <+due> kilobyte: It's lightblue, not blue.
02:44 <+due> "blue smoke" is actually LIGHTBLUE, whereas I wanted BLUE.
02:45 <+doy> due: should update cdo at some point, get the new lair changes in
02:45 <+due> Sure...
02:46 <+due> What's it running?
02:46 <+due> 958627e
02:51 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2161-g7ddd2e7 (15.3)!
02:52 <+doy> yay
02:58 <+sorear> due can update cdo now?
02:58 <+due> Yeah, Napkin taught me.
02:58 <+sorear> mm?
02:59 <+doy> hmmm, i could continue doing dungeon generation, but i haven't played in a while
02:59 <+sorear> He's told me how too, but I don't have the permission bits :(
02:59 <+due> doy: What are you adding to l_dgnbld?
02:59 <+doy> i think i'll do that now
02:59 <+doy> due: i was going to make a couple more map transformers, like smear_map, etc
02:59 <+due> Awesome.
02:59 <+due> "ruin_map"?
02:59 <+doy> spiral_map was where i was going to start
02:59 <+due> Yummy.
03:00 <+doy> i think that applied to the cross layout with a few tweaks would be awesome
03:00 <+due> I think my next "focus" section of the play testing posts will be on dungeon branches.
03:00 <+doy> pinwheel shaped levels
03:00 <+doy> (:
03:00 <+due> I should commit make_ellipse and make_box...
03:00 <+due> Not that they actually work.
03:00 <+due> Well, make ellipse does.
03:01 <+doy> once i'm done with that, i'm hopefully going to get started on the crypt layout generator, on a branch
03:01 <+due> But apparently my code has a massive bug in it because it keeps saying that y is 70.
03:01 <+due> "Feh".
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03:09 < Eronarn> doy: what're you doing with crypt layout? I have an idea for one, and a preliminary idea for the process of genning it, but I'd be interested in seeing what you're thinking of doing
03:09 <+doy> Eronarn: i want crypt to be a big maze of small rooms
03:10 < Eronarn> yeah, that's basically what i'm going for - though in mine it would have some central pathways dividing the maze, rather than the entire level being mazelike
03:10 <+doy> sure
03:11 <+doy> the idea being to both make it feel more like crypts, and to allow melee monsters to have an easier time getting into range
03:11 <+doy> have you looked over my layouts page on the wiki?
03:12 <+due> doy: Relink me?
03:12 <+doy> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:layouts
03:15 < Eronarn> doy: what i was going for was something like this: http://i46.tinypic.com/qmz5aw.png
03:15 <+doy> i'm... not entirely sure how that would look as a map
03:15 <+doy> (:
03:15 <+due> Odd?
03:15 < Eronarn> thick central arteries, thinner ones coming off of it, even thinner ones off of that
03:15 < Eronarn> where two arteries meet, possibility of making a larger room
03:16 <+due> Sounds extremely complicated.
03:16 < Eronarn> the rest of the space filled with rooms - not pictured - off of the thinner ones, or other rooms
03:16 < Eronarn> (was thinking 3/2/1 wide for the corridors)
03:16 < TGW> man, eronarn is crazy
03:17 <+due> TGW: Agree.
03:17 < Eronarn> Agree.
03:18 <+due> ARGH
03:18 < Vandal> ARGH?
03:18 <+due> /home/persson/Documents/packages/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source/dat/layout.des:460: Invalid y coordinate: 70
03:18 <+due> That is nonsensical.
03:19 < TGW> snake pit's round corridors: make them more than one wide
03:19 < TGW> being able to jam snakes behind a naga is stupid and I hate it
03:20 <+due> TGW: They'll all be circular, so barelyy any choke points.
03:24 <+due> Hm, kinda got it working now.
03:26 < purge> god
03:26 < purge> dispater beat my ass even berserk with 145 hp
03:27 <+due> ooray, I did it!
03:27 <+due> It just needs doors now.
03:27 <+due> doy: I've got city working now. :)
03:27 <+doy> nice(:
03:28 < ogaz> dispater has 40 ac
03:29 <+due> yeee
03:29 <+due> bye
03:31 < Eronarn> doy: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:layouts#crypt is what i mean in map format
03:31 <+doy> hmmm
03:31 <+doy> needs more rooms
03:31 < Eronarn> yeah, i only filled in the lower left quadrant
03:31 < Eronarn> imagine if the entire layout were like that
03:32 <+doy> i just mean, that feels like too many corridors compared to the rooms
03:32 <+doy> possibly because a lot of the rooms are only 1 tile wide
03:33 <+doy> which makes them look just like more corridors
03:33 < Eronarn> well, that's designed operating on 3/2/1. but it could be made, say, 2/1/1
03:33 < Eronarn> so that the main corridors are 2-width, all the rest are 1-width
03:34 < Eronarn> or even drop the alternate-width corridors entirely, and still generate with "tiers", but all tiers are of equal width
03:34 <+doy> main corridors of 2 width sounds good
03:34 <+doy> and if things were spread out a bit more
03:34 < Eronarn> yeah i cramped it togethered there so it'd all fit in a small area... i was doing it by hand :P
03:34 <+doy> i'm envisioning rooms that are more like 3x4, 5x7, 2x5, etc
03:34 < TGW> @elf: symmetrical grids!
03:35 <+doy> not like 2x3, 1x4, 1x3, etc
03:35 <+doy> which is what's on that map
03:36 < Eronarn> doy: i think that it'd be neat if some parts of crypt were bigger and some were smaller, but that those parts were together. like maybe a given quadrant of crypt has a 10% chance tiny rooms, 10% chance big rooms, else normal rooms
03:36 < Eronarn> but you would either get all tiny rooms, or all normal rooms, not some tiny rooms and some normal rooms next to each other
03:38 < Eronarn> doy: one advantage of having more spread out corridor intersections is that the diamond-shaped intersection rooms can be bigger - i think there's lots of room to do cool things with them, if the tiered intersections are kept
03:38 <+doy> yeah
03:39 < Eronarn> let's say you have 5 main avenues on a level, you might only have one route that goes from stairs A to point B; either you have to descend and come up to stairs B/C, or you have to go past the intersections between stairs A and point B
03:40 < Eronarn> using the crypts as a 'shorcut' to not have to cross the avenues should be possible, but not guaranteed
03:40 < Eronarn> i'd also say - hatches only in the crypts, stairs only in the avenues
03:41 <+doy> i think more examples would be the most helpful
03:41 <+doy> because i'm still not entirely sure what you're envisioning
03:41 <+doy> (:
03:44 < Cryp71c> Where are the starting packages located at, or are they all determined programatically when the char is chosen?
03:45 <+doy> also, having multiple crypt layouts would be a good thing
03:45 < Eronarn> doy: edited in another example
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03:46 < Eronarn> in this case - A B C D E are intersection rooms; normally getting from A to E would require going through either B, or C and D
03:46 < Eronarn> the . . . represents a hypothetical shortcut through the rooms, rather than taking the main passages
03:47 < Eronarn> using the shortcuts you can go A => C => E instead of A => C => D => E
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03:47 < Eronarn> in other words, the rooms between B and C might have doors facing B, and doors facing C, but no way to get from a B-facing door to a C-facing door
03:48 < Eronarn> whereas the rooms between A and C do have some passageway that could be used
03:48 < Eronarn> that make sense?
03:57 < Ashenzari> Trapdoor spider weirdness (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=33) by sorear
03:59 < Cryp71c> Yeah...blork the orc startging with a battle axe...
03:59 < Cryp71c> kind of blows
04:02 <+sorear> Huh?
04:03 < ogaz> On a totally unrelated note, does anyone have any idea on how to change the Vestibule to be more interesting? That place simply feels unfinished to me
04:03 < Zannick> sorear: i added a comment to one of your tickets
04:04 < Zannick> i guess Ashenzari doesn't specify that...
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04:09 < Cryp71c> @??Pikel
04:09 < Gretell> Pikel (K) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 9 | Res: magic(24) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 983.
04:09 < Cryp71c> Yeah...can someone fix Pikel plz? 1000 xp is insane for HD 6, is it not?
04:10 < Cryp71c> I killed him really easily as a TrMo
04:10 <+doy> better idea would be to make pikel's slaves stick closer to him
04:10 < Cryp71c> doy, yeah he ran right out in front of them.
04:11 < Mu_> you should let the slaves displace him too
04:11 < Mu_> pikel shoves his slave into battle
04:12 < Mu_> i always end up fighting him in a corridor and his slaves aren't even a concern
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04:23 < TGW> pikel should form a conga line with his slaves
04:23 < TGW> but make them attack first
04:23 < TGW> and then give him the old exp value
04:23 < Twinge_> !tell Cryp71c Pikel comes with 4 slaves which give no exp whatsoever, so there is more of a threat than is immediately apparent.
04:23 < Henzell> Twinge_: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know.
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04:28 < purge> why doesn't "some of your potions freeze and shatter!" specify which potion(s) shattered?
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04:29 < Twinge_> That's already a FR, purge, and will probably be implemented when someone has a chance to implement it
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04:42 < Eronarn> ogaz: i think vestibule would work better if 1) replace all enemies with demons 2) all demons move towards you when you enter 3) geryon gives demons orders rather than closing/summon-spamming
04:42 < Eronarn> maybe make it smaller, too
04:43 < Eronarn> like half of the current size, maybe a third
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04:45 < purge> eronarn: i think the entry vaults for the branches could be a bit more thematic as well
04:46 < Eronarn> purge: do you mean the in-dungeon ones, or the in-branch ones
04:46 < purge> in vesticule
04:46 < purge> vestibule
04:47 < Eronarn> oh. they're ok but in general i'm a fan of adding more stuff
04:47 < Eronarn> like, say, messages when you get close to an entrance
04:48 < Eronarn> or just minor touches - say, making cocytus have icy/frosty tiles
04:48 <+doy> having multiple options for the hell entries would be cool
04:48 < Eronarn> or tartarus having gloom clouds
04:49 < purge> i mean the gehenna one is checkered lava squares, not very impressive considering the level of the game
04:51 < purge> maybe impressive isn't the word.. i mean not very "forbidding"
04:51 < purge> is maybe a better word
04:52 < purge> doy: [22:39] <Ahrin> There's a plant... on a shop.
04:53 <+doy> purge: and?
04:53 < purge> is that intended?
04:53 <+doy> shrug, plants can spawn anywhere
04:53 < purge> ok
04:59 < Twinge_> Seems somewhat awkward, since the shop is open for business and all.  Not a big deal, but over shops specifically (not even necessarily other portals) it might be best for there to be no plants on top
05:01 < Xiberia> would be cool if shops were overgrown in like
05:01 < Xiberia> lair
05:01 < Xiberia> as a means of hiding from the monsters
05:01 < Xiberia> and when you've cleared the plant
05:01 < Xiberia> next time you enter the level
05:01 < Xiberia> the shop is burning
05:01 < Xiberia> and the owner is dead or missing
05:02 < Eronarn> no thanks
05:02 < Twinge_> Amusing, but doesn't make any sense and isn't really good for gameplay ;)
05:03 < Xiberia> you could also scatter his belongings over the nearby area
05:03 < Xiberia> and maybe a charred corpse
05:03 < Xiberia> to make the player feel real bad
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05:04 < Twinge_> Or maybe he starts following you down the dungoen, and shows up guarding the down stairs with a shotgun...
05:05 < Vandal> Hey Twinge grats on getting the new xp tables in
05:05 < Vandal> Looking forward to trying them ut
05:05 < Vandal> out
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06:48 <+greensnark> Good moaning
06:49 < ogaz> hi greensnark!
06:49 <+greensnark> Yo
06:49 < ogaz> alligator snapping turtles probably need to be worth exp, btw
06:49 <+greensnark> Yeah, turtle xp mods are off
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07:25 < Twinge_> or even weaken them a bit, they seem pretty high by the stats even considering the slower speed, though I haven't had a chance to fight them yet
07:26 < Twinge_> I recall you saying the exp gains were overall already on the high end for Shoals compared to swamp, so that's kinda why my initial thought is more towards nerfing the mobs than increasing their exp
07:27 <+sorear> no, no
07:27 <+sorear> without the UI horror, Swamp is a cakewalk
07:28 <+sorear> we should make shoals *and* swamp 4-5x the difficulty and xp
07:28 <+sorear> of the old swamp
07:28 <+greensnark> I'm not too worried about matching the Swamp, yeah
07:28 <+sorear> more hydras, 
07:28 <+sorear> much more hydras, 
07:28 <+sorear> dragons, waspy goodness,
07:28 < elly> UI horror?
07:28 < Eronarn> sorear: treefolk monsters in swamp; look like trees until you get too close
07:28 < Eronarn> cast spells
07:29 <+sorear> Eronarn: YES
07:29 < elly> mimics :D
07:29 < Eronarn> sorear: i'll do out a design doc for them if you help me slip it past dpeg!
07:29 <+sorear> elly: it's a bit hard to pin down why, but players in Swamp scream in frustration
07:30 < elly> ...oO weird
07:30 < Eronarn> sorear: lots of things stopping autoexplore, doing so at inopportune times, random LOS blocking, water threats are either trivial or annoying as hell depending on whether you have anti-water-monster stuff
07:30 < Twinge_> elly: worms.
07:30 < Eronarn> and then there are the monsters like slime creatures or hydras
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07:31 < Eronarn> hydras more like 'hi i move faster in water for some reason'dras
07:31 <+sorear> which are faster than you, flee when wounded, and have M_REGENERATES
07:31 < Twinge_> Yeah that was the other thing about slime creatures - in swamp you can't exactly just run away from a titanic; they're faster than you in the water, so you're bound to be taking some hits before it splits up, so I still think the damage potential should be dropped
07:31 <+sorear> and oh yeah you can't corner anything in Swamp
07:31 <+sorear> Twinge_: titanics should never exist in Swamp, ever
07:31 < elly> that sounds a) horrible and b) exactly what it *would* be like to fight in a swamp
07:31 <+sorear> Twinge_: you don't nerf a bug, you fix it
07:32 < Twinge_> Ahh.
07:32 < Eronarn> imo swamp needs more LOS and visibility stuff
07:32 < Eronarn> less water all over the place
07:33 < Twinge_> sorear: bug? I mean, even if they merge correctly it still seems pretty threatening in swamp with limited escape options.  Shrug.  But I was unaware they were only in smaller packs, that's more reasonable
07:33 < Twinge_> Eronarn: Slightly more clouds, trees blocking LOS, and a bit less water... seems good.
07:34 < Eronarn> i'd like to see more swamp-unique monsters
07:34 < Eronarn> like some plants, perhaps
07:37 < Danei> They have to be annoying, somehow, though. That's the theme of swamp. Every monster is designed to be incredibly annoying to the player in some way.
07:38 < Twinge_> Carnivorous Cattails
07:38 < ogaz> elly: I think that's why I actually like swamp
07:39 < Twinge_> Fun > Theme, though.
07:39 <+sorear> I *love* Swamp.  As a designer.
07:39 <+sorear> When I'm playing, the branch makes me want to tear my hair out.
07:39 < Eronarn> Twinge_: giant sundews. Entangle you, cause rotting.
07:40 < Eronarn> "You are being digested!"
07:40 < Twinge_> I don't hate it as much as some, but it'smore of an annoying tedium that makes me go slow, rather than a more exciting 'oh crap there might be a pack of yaktaurs around that corner I better be careful'
07:45 < ogaz> Swamp reminds me of Tomb in some ways, except Tomb, despite also being slow and tedious, is so well done that no one wants to change it
07:46 <+greensnark> ogaz: Well, we all know you have a sphinx fetish :P
07:46 < Mu_> tomb is beautiful
08:02 < Twinge_> I think every time I hit tomb area (yeah, that's only like 3 or 4 times :P) I happen to be loaded in MR, so Sphinxes have always been happy xp bundes for me
08:04 <+greensnark> !lg * Tomb s=ckiller
08:04 < Henzell> 189 games for * (Tomb): 61x a sphinx, 20x a greater mummy, 13x a guardian mummy, 12x a mummy priest, 11x a smoke demon, 8x a hellion, 6x weakness, 6x stupidity, 6x clumsiness, 5x a lich, 4x an Executioner, 4x wild magic, 3x a flayed ghost, 3x a reaper, 2x quitting, 2x a player ghost, 2x a beast, 2x a Fiend, 1x an orange rat, 1x a griffon simulacrum, 1x a Shadow Fiend, 1x a guardian naga simulacrum...
08:04 <+greensnark> Sphinxes are awesome <3
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08:05 < Danei> Wow. I don't know if I've ever died to a sphinx. Maybe once or twice. I find the greater mummies and mummy priests more dangerous.
08:05 < Mu_> i love the 2x quitting most of all
08:05 < CIA-81> greensnark * r0879f0bf6cdb /crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Fix xp modifier for turtles.
08:05 < CIA-81> greensnark * rcacdc4a68146 /crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc fight.h mon-act.cc): Disallow intrinsic reaching attacks (turtles) from reach-attacking at full diagonals (2,2).
08:07 < Twinge_> Another thing that might be good for swamp, but probably won't happen, is to maybe maybe it less tied to Poison; right now it seems like it's basically 'welp, I don't have rPoison, guess I'm not even entering swamp or Snake'
08:07 < st_> I kinda like that sometimes you need to dive the dungeon for rpois
08:07 <+greensnark> Twinge_: It's not tied to poison
08:08 <+greensnark> You can pretty easily do Swamp without PR
08:09 < Eronarn> well, you can do swamp 1-4 pretty much no problem, but swamp 5 is kind of nasty without rPois or clarity
08:09 <+greensnark> Clarity helps, but is not mandatory
08:09 <+greensnark> You will burn a fair few healing  though
08:09 < Eronarn> yeah, i think it's pretty much fine the way it is
08:09 <+greensnark> Snake is far more dangerous without PR because of boss naga poison arrow
08:10 < Eronarn> if i were to change anything in swamp it would really be the layout
08:10 <+greensnark> But Swamp terrain + swamp worms is soo annoying :P
08:10 < Eronarn> it's the worst part
08:10 < Twinge_> Isn't the drakes rot breath poison based?
08:10 < Eronarn> no
08:10 < ogaz> nah, the worst part of swamp is the getting unlucky enough to get undead swamp
08:10 <+greensnark> Drakes get mephitic cloud, which is canceled by PR
08:11 < Eronarn> death drake rot breath is based on rotting resistance now
08:11 < Eronarn> swamp drake is meph cloud, yeah
08:11 <+greensnark> The death drake shows up in only the undead ending, and there's only ever one
08:11 < Eronarn> i haven't ever gotten undead swamp
08:11 < Eronarn> and i've done it a few times since it was added
08:11 <+greensnark> Undead ending is easier than the normal :P
08:11 <+greensnark> You just have to avoid the skeletal dragon :P
08:11 < Eronarn> need to get around to deleting dispel undead already
08:11 < ogaz> I just find it to be soulcrushing
08:12 <+greensnark> ogaz: You're referring to the skeletal dragon or the swamp?
08:12 <+greensnark> Need better anaphora resolution
08:12 < Twinge_> Eronarn: Really?  I guess I just had high enough MR or something then, since I was ignoring the stuff like I was immune
08:12 < ogaz> not so much the skeletal dragon as the mass of phantoms, the death drake, having to kite the spectral hydrae everywhere if you don't have rN+++, etc
08:13 < ogaz> you're right that it's not hard, but it's frustrating
08:13 < Twinge_> oh, nm, you corrected it.  I meant swamp drakes.
08:13 <+greensnark> You do have to be careful around drakes if you don't have PR
08:13 <+greensnark> There's no question that PR makes Swamp easier, but it's not terribly hard even without PR
08:14 <+greensnark> In my PR-less visits, the swamp dragon poisoning was considerably more dangerous than the drake confusion
08:14 < Twinge_> I could've sworn I was rotted by a swamp drake once, but I guess it must've been a death dake.
08:14 <+greensnark> Yep
08:15 < Twinge_> I guess what I'm saying overall though, is if you're looking to make swamp harder, maybe at least aim to do it in a non-poison-based way or something.
08:15 < Twinge_> I already feel almost obligated to have it to go through as it is myself :P  dunno what the general player conensus is there
08:16 < Eronarn> swamp should have intelligent enemies, imo
08:17 <+greensnark> Gollum :P
08:18 < Eronarn> greensnark: ents!!
08:18 < Twinge_> An anthropomorphic crayfiash
08:18 <+greensnark> !tell kilobyte I don't want to magically replace "orSlow in games with "oStasis because they're not the same amulet and could cause nasty surprises to player who are wearing rSlow and upgrade.
08:18 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
08:19 < Eronarn> Twinge_: Homarids.
08:19 <+greensnark> A witch in the Swamp in a hut
08:19 <+greensnark> Baba Yaga
08:19 < ogaz> homelands?
08:19 < Twinge_> OH
08:19 < Twinge_> Capybara!
08:20 < Eronarn> why
08:20 <+greensnark> If you have capybara, you need anacondas to eat them
08:20 < Twinge_> Not intelligent, but.  Yeah.  Swamp NEEDS some Capybar!
08:20 < Eronarn> greensnark: We have anacondas!
08:20 <+greensnark> But they're fully booked for Snake Pit duty :P
08:20 < Eronarn> Snakes can already show up in Swamp, can't they
08:20 <+greensnark> The small fry, yes
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08:21 < Twinge_> so make it only anacondas, which conviently don't poison either
08:21 < Twinge_> (well, not only, but primarily.)
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08:27 < Twinge_> Will O' The Wisp is another possible swampish creature.  Shrug.
08:39 < Eronarn> Twinge_: already a FR about this
08:53 < CIA-81> greensnark * rf2aa833106b5 /crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Fix monster enchantment names for debug_stethoscope.
08:53 < CIA-81> greensnark * rcac38e346d15 /crawl-ref/source/godwrath.cc: Mark Okawaru wrath minions as summoned.
08:59 <+Keskitalo> !learn edit eino[1] s/evtaklo/evktalo
08:59 < Henzell> Keskitalo: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
08:59 < Henzell> eino[1/2]: Crawler with a rather long history, made many vaults and maintains trunk binaries.  Also known as evktalo and Keskitalo.  Web site at http://crawl.develz.org/trunk
08:59 <+Keskitalo> !messages
08:59 < Henzell> (1/2) greensnark said (2d 19h 19m 47s ago): !tv pingpong killer=Grum
08:59 <+Keskitalo> !messages
08:59 < Henzell> (1/1) Napkin said (21h 12m 14s ago): Beep me when you have time? The way the mingw32 builds are built has changed slightly :)
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09:18 <+greensnark> Hey Keskitalo, by!
09:19 <+Keskitalo> Heya greensnark, yay for testudines, probably spelled that wrong.
09:19 <+greensnark> You got it right :)
09:19 <+greensnark> You should check that pingpong death by Grum
09:19 <+by> good morning
09:19 <+greensnark> Very karmic <3
09:20 <+Keskitalo> !tv pingpong killer=Grum
09:20 < Henzell> 1. pingpong, XL9 HaAs, T:10346 requested for FooTV.
09:22 <+Keskitalo> Umh, did Grum have a paralysis wand? That went by fast.
09:23 <+Keskitalo> Nice new needle action.
09:23 <+by> seems so, though I don't think he needed it
09:24 <+greensnark> The paralysis wand was so fitting given cbus was spamming needles of paralysis :)
09:26 <+due> Hi
09:26 <+due> Keskitalo!
09:27 <+by> yellow bee larvae seem out of place next to brown bees
09:27 <+greensnark> Evenin due on the grass
09:28 <+Keskitalo> Hi due!
09:28 <+due> greensnark! I got the city layout working. :)
09:28 <+greensnark> <3
09:28 <+Keskitalo> by: I agree.
09:28 <+due> Yes, they are a bit odd.
09:28 <+Keskitalo> by: Although once they eat away the hive food, they do deserve highlighting. :) But now they are odd indeed.
09:28 <+due> Is David on?
09:29 <+sorear> ploog? ramsey?
09:29 <+due> Ploog
09:29 <+Keskitalo> due: I wonder if Grum should lose it if his dogs get killed. :]
09:29 <+greensnark> "Nobody hurts my dogs!"
09:29 <+due> Keskitalo: <3
09:29 <+greensnark> "GRAAAAAAR"
09:29 <+due> Blood rage, not berserk, though.
09:30 <+due> I think we've done berserk to death.
09:30 <+greensnark> Grum should turn into a werewardog if his dogs get killed :P
09:30 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, Duvessa does it well enough.
09:30 <+greensnark> due: Apparently LordSloth got obliterated by post-Duvessa-Dowan :)
09:31 <+due> :>!!!
09:31 <+due> !lg * killer=dowan
09:31 < Henzell> 17. LordSloth the Grave Robber (L6 DSDK), blasted by Dowan (stone arrow) on D:4 on 2010-01-11, with 696 points after 5788 turns and 0:32:26.
09:32 <+greensnark> !tv LordSloth killer=Dowan
09:32 < Henzell> 1. LordSloth, XL6 DSDK, T:5788 requested for FooTV.
09:32 <+Keskitalo> Appropriate speech would probably be enough for Grum. Do/Du do the "which one should I kill first" puzzle already, Grum has the reaching weapon to strike from behind the dogs (though the dogs are faster than Grum so there's not exactly a nice formation)
09:32 <+Keskitalo> Well, that's some polishing work for some future day.
09:33 <+greensnark> due has apparently put in code to make sure D&D don't show up in my games :/
09:33 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: The pelt that Grum wears should obviously be an artefact, evokable for war dog transformation. :)
09:33 <+greensnark> And cast invisibility on the code
09:34 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: Nice :P
09:35 <+due> Oh man, awesome fight.
09:35 <+greensnark> At least he could enchant his mace before he went
09:35 <+due> !tell LordSloth Nice death to dowan. :D
09:35 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let LordSloth know.
09:35 <+due> HAHA YES.
09:35 <+due> Oh, good
09:36 <+due> My mailing list replies this morning weren't quite as ipssy as I thought they sounded.
09:36 <+due> *pissy.
09:37 <+by> nobody needs "Detect Creatures", but we definitely need "Detect Spores and Ballistomycetes" for 0.6
09:37 <+greensnark> "Detect High Explosives"
09:37 <+Keskitalo> "The air smells moldy."
09:38 <+greensnark> "Boom boom boom I want you in my room"
09:38 <+greensnark> Oh god, I hated that song
09:38 < Eronarn> we need "remove ballistomycetes" for 0.6
09:38 <+due> Eronarn: -.-
09:38 < Eronarn> due: i will never surrender! :P
09:38  * due beats Eronarn with Keskitalo.
09:38 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: Fail for using US English "moldy" :P
09:39 <+due> Keskitalo: Did Napkin tell you about the trunk build changes?
09:40 <+greensnark> @whereis Napkin
09:40 < Gretell> Napkin the Carver (L14 HEFE), a worshipper of Vehumet, saved on D:11 on 2010-01-11 after 52337 turns.
09:40 <+greensnark> Hey, he's still alive :P
09:40 <+greensnark> Ooh, there's a wizlab with fire-breathing rats? <3
09:40 <+due> Also, I fnished the playtesting post.
09:40 <+greensnark> hashc just found it
09:40 <+due> ooh
09:41 <+due> where?
09:41 <+greensnark> Apparently playing offline, he mentioned it on ##crawl
09:41 <+Keskitalo> due: He left me a message, but didn't go to details.
09:41 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Oh! What would be the Proper English version?
09:42 <+by> mouldy?
09:42 <+Keskitalo> due: Hey nice! Reading..
09:42 < Twinge_> green: I've seen fire-breathing rats in a normal vault too.  there was like a wizard or somesuch in a room of treasure, and when you went in to get the treasure a side room opened up full of fire-breathing rats ;)
09:44 <+due> Twinge_: Yeah, that's it. <3
09:44 < Napkin> Still alive \o/
09:44 <+due> Napkin! <#
09:44 < Twinge_> Oh, I thought a 'wizlab' was a portal vault or something, heh :P
09:44 <+greensnark> Napkin: Killed Aizul yet? :P
09:44 <+due> Twinge_: It is.
09:45 < Napkin> no, I ran! :D
09:45 <+due> Napkin: :(
09:45 < Napkin> ermm.. who wouldn't have?! :D
09:45 < Napkin> 1s
09:45 <+greensnark> Aizul is the terror of ##crawl
09:45 <+due> I would've stayed and died, just for the numbers!
09:45 <+greensnark> And of SA :)
09:46 < Napkin> lol
09:46 <+due> Oh, really?
09:46 < Napkin> http://ipxserver.dyndns.org/misc/rogue/shot-109.png
09:46 < Napkin> XL13 - that was just too much for me :D
09:46 < Eronarn> aizul = brutal. Just the way uniques should be.
09:46 <+greensnark> Hee, Napkin uses euro symbols for gold!
09:46 <+greensnark> Nice touch
09:46 < Napkin> ;))
09:47 <+due> Hehehehe, how cute
09:47 < Napkin> it's funny when they turn into mean and bad dollar symbol as a mimic :D
09:47 < Eronarn> ...hahha.
09:47 < Eronarn> That's kind of awesome.
09:47 <+greensnark> Ohh, that's a bug
09:47 < Napkin> hehehe
09:47 <+due> That's definitely a bug
09:47 < Napkin> I found it hilarious though :D
09:47 <+greensnark> :P
09:48 < Napkin> alright, let's get started here at work...
09:48 < Napkin> coffee \o/
09:49 <+Keskitalo> I wonder what would be a good way to archive a part of a wiki page.. I assume the revisions are stored, so the removed part can be accessed in the earlier version.
09:50 <+greensnark> You can view all the revisions in the history
09:50 < Eronarn> workkkkk. :|
09:51 <+Keskitalo> Let's see how cumbersome it is to link to previous versions..
09:59 -!- mumblerit [n=mumbleri@cpe-67-249-63-78.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit []
10:00  * Napkin pokes the grumpy due *
10:00 <+Keskitalo> Not too cumbersome.
10:00  * due grumps around.
10:01 <+due> I'm undicded
10:01 <+due> *undecided.
10:01 < Napkin> I'm against that!
10:02 <+due> It makes boxes--but with no doors.
10:03 < Eronarn> due: what, the Vaults thing, or?
10:03 <+due> Gah.
10:03 <+due> now it just crashes??
10:04 <+due> Ohhhh greensnark!
10:05 <+due> greensnark: http://pastebin.ca/1746640 Why is this causing a segfault?
10:06 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
10:09  * due pokes greensnark with a kebab stick.
10:10 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
10:13 <+Keskitalo> Lair looks all new now.
10:13 <+due> I knoooow
10:13 <+due> Isn't it great?
10:16 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r03630bb93dae /crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: In the skills menu, move Stealth to the right column, above T&D.
10:16 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r61234ca48c76 /crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Add an explanatory line about skill training to the skills menu. (Napkin)
10:16 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r577f5d3f5ae4 /crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: In skill menu, allow reading descriptions of skills at 27.
10:17 < Mu_> are wizlabs finished yet due :o
10:17 <+due> shhh
10:18 <+due> (no)
10:18 <+due> dpeg's promised a botono layout, I need toget Zaba's zonguldrok one fixed and working
10:19 < Mu_> cool ;o
10:19 <+Keskitalo> due: Yes, looks promising.. hope to play it soon!
10:20 <+kilobyte> idea: what about making one wizlab per game guaranteed?  They have more than an order of magnitude more effort put into them.
10:20 <+kilobyte> and I've yet to see one
10:27 < Mu_> i saw someone get the cloud wizlab yesterday and they got scared and exited it immediately without exploring :p
10:28 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
10:28 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA
10:32 <+greensnark> due: Sorry, I was in stasis :P
10:33 <+greensnark> due: Where's the segfault? :)
10:35 <+greensnark> It looks like you may be stepping outside GXM,GYM with fill area
10:37 -!- mrawt is now known as mr0t
10:41 < Napkin> Do I have to update the wiki code? *sigh*
10:42 <+due> greensnark: I can't work it out.
10:42 <+due> gre	Apparently the loop/something in the code is generating y-values outside of bounds.
10:43 <+due> greensnark: I added a is_valid_coord function to l_dgnbld that basically does _valid_coord without generating errors and checked all the coords before building rooms.
10:43 <+due> Seems to work, and generates relatively identical vaults levels.
10:43 < Napkin> btw, ladies and gentlemen - I heard many praises of Greensnarks or Dues articles. Why is nobody leaving comments of approval behind?
10:44 <+due> greensnark: Anyway, just need doors, treasure and sub-rooms...
10:45 <+Keskitalo> I like how you can see the blood spatter on the floor through the blink frog's transparent behind in tiles.
10:45 <+greensnark> Blink frogs have transparent behinds? :P
10:45 <+due> Yeah.
10:46 <+greensnark> Napkin: In general the read/comment ratio in most places I've seen is close to 500:1 :)
10:46 <+greensnark> That is normal :)
10:46 <+due> Napkin: people usually only comment when they see something wrong :)
10:46 <+greensnark> And a lot of people just comment in here :)
10:47 < Napkin> more more more! :D
10:49 <+due> greensnark: I'm thinking of storing all the "room" points in an array when they are plced, and then adding doors at the very end--instead of the current code. what do you think?
10:49 <+due> Weight the doors towards the centers of the rooms, away from the corners.
10:49 <+sorear> I think you're mad
10:50 <+Keskitalo> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2168-g577f5d3 (15.3)
10:51 <+greensnark> due: I haven't seen the current code, but as long as it looks good, I'm cool :)
10:51 <+kilobyte> hmm, CDO claims it can't transfer my save to the current version, despite the major number being the same
10:51 < Napkin> no, it's not the same, kilobyte 
10:51 < Napkin> you are in 15.2
10:52 < Napkin> current is 15.3
10:52 <+sorear> 15 == 15
10:52 <+kilobyte> you can't move a save from 15.3 to 15.2, but you can the other way
10:53 <+greensnark> Napkin: We can allow copying with major version same now, since folks are keeping compat intact on major version
10:53 < Napkin> are you guys sure?
10:54 <+Keskitalo> due: How about generating single centaur *warriors* instead of single plain centaurs in Shoals?
10:54 <+kilobyte> major version: save compat broken, minor version: save format changed but there's code to upgrade to the new version
10:54 < Napkin> I really don't wanna go back to "Buuuhuuuu - my save is broken!"
10:54 <+kilobyte> Keskitalo: or perhaps, both
10:54 <+greensnark> Napkin: I think all devs are careful to not break compatibility now
10:54 <+greensnark> Without incrementing the major version, that is
10:55 <+kilobyte> Keskitalo: yaktaurs are way too common everywhere, but centaurs of both types are good for theme
10:55 < Napkin> did rSlow got removed yet?
10:55 < Napkin> *get
10:55 <+greensnark> Not in master
10:55 <+Keskitalo> kilobyte: Yeah.
10:55 < Napkin> good :>
10:55 <+kilobyte> at least, we would err by not updating the version at all.  Updating minor means there was a conscious action.
10:57 <+due> Keskitalo: I'm not sure; there was a concern about EXP generation, ask greensnark.
10:57  * greensnark is past his worries about xp!
10:57 <+due> So, centaur warriors are okay?
10:58 <+greensnark> Just cut back on plain old merfolk or lesser turtles if you're injecting more centaur warriors
10:58 <+due> Keskitalo, thanks for the comment :)
10:58 < Eronarn> i'd rather see some new kind of centaur than centaur warriors
10:58 < Eronarn> they're a bit boring
10:59 <+due> Eronarn: Me too.
10:59 <+due> Eronarn: Come up with one.
10:59 <+Keskitalo> due: No problemo. :)
10:59 <+due> Centaur warper?
10:59 <+due> Also, back in 20.
10:59 <+Keskitalo> Centaur Master Archer!
11:00 <+sorear> Centaur Chaos Knight!
11:01 <+greensnark> Centaur Beach Volleyballer
11:02  * greensnark wants Baba Yaga for Swamp.
11:02  * greensnark <3 Baba Yaga
11:02 <+greensnark> I used to read a lot of Russian folklore
11:03 <+greensnark> Russia used to sell subsidised books in India during the Cold War
11:03 < Twinge_> I'd vote for Baba Yaga if you'd vote for Capybara :D
11:03 <+greensnark> Gorgeous high-quality stuff
11:03 <+Keskitalo> I think Matthew suggested having the hut of Baba Yaga as a monster, and when you defeat it, it becomes an entrance into the hut.
11:03 <+greensnark> For the modern equivalent of 10 cents US
11:03 <+greensnark> You'd get a big, beautifully bound book with colour plates
11:03 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Sounds good. :)
11:03 <+greensnark> Who could resist?!
11:04 < Eronarn> due: I would dig on Zin, Ely, and TSO centaurs.
11:04 <+greensnark> Actually I mainly want Baba Yaga's walking hut :)
11:04 < Eronarn> Zin one was discussed. Ely one can be a traveling preacher. TSO one can use a lance and a shield.
11:04 <+greensnark> I forget which Pratchett book had the voodoo lady with a hut that could walk and swim in the swamp
11:05 <+greensnark> It was a Granny Weatherwax book set in Genua ...
11:05 <+Keskitalo> Witches Aboard
11:05 <+greensnark> Ah! That was it
11:06 < Eronarn> Oh, that's why this PDF kept going to my PDF program when I hit print instead of printing.
11:06 < Eronarn> Because I was trying to print it on the PDF printer.
11:06 < Napkin> please try transferring, kilobyte - should work now
11:07 < Napkin> by, it works, right?
11:07 <+by> yay, I could transfer, too! I thought transferring saves had always worked this way :)
11:08 < Napkin> no, the major and minor had to match
11:08 <+by> unfortunately, I'm through the lair already
11:11 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:11 <+due> greensnark: Witches Abroad
11:13 <+Keskitalo> Abroad indeed, not Aboard..
11:13 <+due> Heh, yeah.
11:13 <+due> It also had mirrors. <3
11:14 < ortoslon> is that true that all uncommented options in settings files are default so an empty settings file will work just as fine?
11:25 < mr0t> yep
11:26 < mr0t> if you consider default just fine :p
11:29 < ortoslon> just tried, i still need to write includes
11:39 -!- ais523 [n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:52 < CIA-81> greensnark amulet-refactoring * r89b4e230ad3b /crawl-ref/source/ (11 files in 2 dirs): Amulet of stasis, first cut.
11:55 <+due> Hooray amulets!
11:55 <+due> Okay, so no doors in corners.
11:57 <+due> Man, my (current) version of city level is infinitely simpler.
11:58 <+greensnark> Gah, drugrobin is playing a 207x55 term
11:58 <+greensnark> It's like Napkin on steroids :P
11:59 <+due> 2007x55? O_o
11:59 < Napkin> hehehe
11:59 <+due> Oh, 207.
11:59 < Napkin> 2010 :D
11:59 <+due> :D
11:59  * due parties like it's 2007.
11:59 <+sorear> greensnark: my standard programming termsize is 212x78, would you like to watch me playtest?
12:01 < Napkin> !send due regenerating coffee
12:01 < Henzell> Sending regenerating coffee to due.
12:01  * greensnark passes.
12:01 <+greensnark> I use a large term for non-Crawl work
12:01 <+due> Hooray
12:01  * greensnark vaguely hopes the Shoals will punish drugrobin for their term size :P
12:03 < cbus> greensnark, spam drugrobin with messages
12:03 < cbus> imo
12:03 < cbus> greensnark, atleast you can almost watch the game in an 80x24 terminal
12:04 <+due> greensnark: Is there a sane way to generate a range of values in an array?
12:05 <+due> greensnark: Say, you are given 1 and 5, and want to generate 1 to 5 inclusive.
12:05 <+due> In python I'd do [x for x in xrange(5)]...
12:06 < cbus> damn
12:06 < cbus> I messaged drugrobin
12:06 < cbus> "thats what you get for playing with weird terminal sizes"
12:06 < cbus> but he died too fast
12:06 < cbus> :)
12:07 <+due> hahaha
12:07 < hashc> blame gnome terminal
12:07 < cbus> hashc, I blame you
12:07 < cbus> gnome terminal is awful
12:07 <+due> I use gnome-terminal, it's not so bad.
12:09 -!- hashc [n=hash@adsl-68-76-123-64.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
12:13 <+greensnark> !tv drugrobin
12:13 < Henzell> 113. drugrobin, XL15 MDBe, T:28422 requested for FooTV.
12:15 < cbus> using gnome terminal is still not a reason
12:15 < cbus> you can export the size :)
12:16 -!- by [n=rob@f052205171.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
12:16 -!- hashc [n=hash@adsl-68-76-123-64.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
12:17 <+Zaba> moin
12:17 <+due> hi zaba!
12:17 <+Zaba> hi due
12:17 <+due> Zaba, my city layout lua is done!
12:18 <+Zaba> nice
12:28 -!- hashc [n=hash@adsl-68-76-123-64.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
12:38 <+greensnark> due: Write a function to generate a list range and put it in util.lua :)
12:42 <+due> greensnark: I did :)
12:44 < CIA-81> greensnark * r00abd7f656ea /crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Set randart base descriptions for new amulets.
12:44 < CIA-81> greensnark * r40b5e8b46a50 /crawl-ref/source/ (27 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'amulet-refactoring'
12:45 <+greensnark> Ok, I'm starting a new game
12:46 <+greensnark> And if I do not run into the elf twins I'm holding due personally responsible
12:48 <+due> :p
13:02 < cbus> greensnark, (it had to do with your title) :D
13:02 < cbus> greensnark, press [
13:05 -!- by [n=rob@ze353.pia.fu-berlin.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:05 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ
13:06 <+due> hey rob
13:07 <+by> hi due
13:19 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r91ed6f97440a /crawl-ref/source/ (tilesdl.cc tilesdl.h): Remove some more old message window code from tiles.
13:19 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * ra997ac598ff6 /crawl-ref/ (33 files in 6 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into messagewindow
13:19 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r01618296bf50 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Store turn count in message items.
13:19 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r4f0acf41b39b /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Implement leading dash.
13:19 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r1e577870f203 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Support for overwritable items in messagewindow.
13:19 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:20 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba_] by ChanServ
13:20 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * r2196a7adf68a /crawl-ref/ (318 files in 27 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into messagewindow
13:20 < Napkin> oops, killing someone make partly visible by sticky flame does not turn auto-explore back on
13:21 < Napkin> *made party visible after turning invisible
13:21 < ais523> can you Corona an invisible creature by guessing its location?
13:21 <+due> Napkin: file?
13:21 < Napkin> sure
13:22 <+due> Napkin: Autopickup should come back on when you sticky-flame, and go off when they disappear.
13:22 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"]
13:24 <+kilobyte> due: shouldn't the glass open once you take the loot?
13:24 <+due> I suppose it could be linked to item pickup instead.
13:24 <+due> anyway, night folk :0
13:27 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
13:28 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@85-131-20-178.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:30 < Ashenzari> Autopickup: Invisible monster and Sticky Flame (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=385) by Napkin
13:30 <+kilobyte> !tell due: After strolling around, I finally got the message, but the glass was still intact.  Had to airstrike the buggers...
13:30 < Henzell> I don't grok. Syntax is !tell PERSON MESSAGE.
13:30 <+kilobyte> !tell due After strolling around, I finally got the message, but the glass was still intact.  Had to airstrike the buggers...
13:30 < Henzell> kilobyte: OK, I'll let due know.
13:44 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:45 < Vandal> mornin'
13:45 < syllogism> are there any plans to rebalance spriggan food consumption as they now use way less than they used to
13:47 < syllogism> not that I think it's necessary
13:48 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
13:50 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:01 <+by> Welcome to the Orcish Mines!
14:01 <+by> The orc seems less confused.
14:01 <+by> The orc blinks!
14:01 <+by> another 3 orcs and a priest did the same...
14:02 < syllogism> huh
14:02 < syllogism> spontaneously?
14:03 <+by> returned to the mines after mephitic clouding them before
14:03 < syllogism> how did it blink
14:03 <+by> so the "less confused" was expected
14:03 <+by> I wonder if the "rearrange monsters" code somehow issued the blinking messages
14:04 < syllogism> again?
14:04 <+by> yup
14:08 <+by> maybe it's mon-stuff.cc:monster_blink not passing along the "quiet" flag
14:15 < Ashenzari> My View -> General Feedback (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=23) by Napkin
14:16 < syllogism> has cdo been updated since the amulets were added
14:17 < cbus> are slings worthwhile later on or should I switch to bows? :D
14:18 < syllogism> zipcode played a slings game at least
14:18 < syllogism> but bows are better unless you want to use a shield
14:18 <+Keskitalo> syllogism: Nope.
14:19 < cbus> does might affect ranged?
14:20 < cbus> am I the only one that can't backspace in inscriptions?
14:20 < cbus> (aka, "should I report it"?)
14:20 < Ashenzari> Rename resolutions "fixed" and "won't fix" to "done" and "won't do" (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=386) by evktalo
14:22 < cbus> using backspace when inscribing works but when you do it (during the inscription) it shows the backspace as a space
14:22 < syllogism> cbus: as in while writing one? works for me
14:22 < cbus> syllogism, check pingpong
14:22 < cbus> I've typed aoeu123
14:22 < cbus> pressing backspace
14:23 < syllogism> do you have it macroed :P
14:23 < cbus> that should be aoeu123backspacebackspacebackspace123
14:23 < cbus> its not
14:23 < cbus> its bugged, and this is pretty much the default config (with gold option)
14:24 <+by> cbus: I've seen this too, but only sporadically; it's definitely a bug
14:25 < cbus> by, k, filing a report then
14:25 < cbus> by, only thing is that it isn't "sporadical" for me, it shows up every time I try
14:25 < syllogism> does it matter which item you inscribe
14:27 < cbus> hmm, same reaction on b (sling) and P (darts) atleast
14:27 < cbus> same with a (falchion)
14:27 < cbus> try copying the config from pingpong and try :)
14:30 < Ashenzari> inscriptions and backspace (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=387) by cbus
14:31 < Vandal> cbus, slings are fast as hell and bullets get egos like everything else now
14:31 < Vandal> try them out?
14:31 < cbus> I am
14:31 < Vandal> I mean later on too
14:48 -!- by [n=rob@ze353.pia.fu-berlin.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
14:49 < syllogism> this "giant eyeballs should flee" fr is pretty weird, how can flee considering they are speed 3 :P
14:50 < AceTetra> they don't already flee?
14:50 < syllogism> the fr suggests they should always flee if there are no other enemies around
14:51 < syllogism> but speed 3 means they would get to move like one tile before splatting :P
14:52 < cbus> Level annotation: exclusions: flame cloud and 20 more exclusions
14:52 < cbus> syllogism, how can they flee without a brain
14:52 < cbus> syllogism, they are just an eye
14:52 < cbus> they shouldn't be intelligent :)
14:52 < syllogism> it just means there's some 5x4 flame cloud vault
14:52 < cbus> You see here 18 stones {god gift}.
14:52 < cbus> 18 +0 sotnes
14:52 < cbus> thanks oka :)
14:52 < syllogism> np :P
14:52 < syllogism> at least the gifts time out fast
14:53 < cbus> HaHu with slings and long blades seems to work nice
14:53 < cbus> btw
14:54 < cbus> now more darts :)
15:00 <+greensnark> syllogism: Did you see the drugrobin Shoal splat? :P
15:00 < cbus> whats a flagged portal?
15:00 <+greensnark> He landed face-first down a shaft into a unique reunion
15:00 < cbus> is that a bug?
15:01 <+greensnark> cbus: A bailey
15:01 < cbus> bailey?
15:01 < cbus> I get a crate of baileys?
15:01 < syllogism> greensnark: yes, was disappointed by Rupert not berserking :(
15:01 < cbus>  A goblin, wielding a runed hand axe of reaching.
15:01 < cbus> bug?
15:02 < syllogism> probably part of the bailey entry vault
15:04 <+Zaba_> cbus, it's not a bug, it's a goblin for dang's sake
15:04 <+Zaba_> cbus, a giant beetle would be a bug
15:04 < syllogism> greensnark: does amulet of faith affect gift timers? I don't remember how they work
15:04 < cbus> zaba_, hand axe of reaching?
15:04 < cbus> thought reaching was for polearms ONLY
15:04 <+Zaba_> cbus, hand axe of reaching
15:04 -!- Zaba_ is now known as Zaba
15:05 <+Zaba> anything is allowed to be created by vaults, I think
15:05 <+Keskitalo> Boggles the mind though.
15:06 < cbus> I want a morning star of stabbing
15:06 < cbus> :D
15:06 <+Zaba> that's the whole purpose of portal vaults, isn't it? Boggling the mind? :>
15:06 < cbus> or a hammer of slicing
15:06 <+Zaba> if it was nothing special, it'd be put in as a normal vault
15:06 < cbus> knife of crushing would be pretty sexy
15:06 <+Keskitalo> Aye.
15:07 <+Zaba> cbus, can't get hammers of slicing, since slicing's vorpal and it's just shown differently for different kinda weapons.
15:07 <+Keskitalo> Speaking of bugs, I think upping their damage has gotten them some kills, yes?
15:07 < cbus> anyway, baileys weren't really interesting
15:07 < cbus> since you couldn't get to the dudes/dudettes with the ranged
15:07 <+greensnark> syllogism: Yes, it also affects gift timers
15:07 < syllogism> did you finish it
15:07 < cbus> I ran through it
15:07 < syllogism> wasn't there something in the center?
15:07 < cbus> since I didn't want to waste ammo
15:08 < cbus> a manual
15:08 <+Zaba> wait, which bailey did you get?
15:08 < cbus> dunno
15:09 < cbus> one with alot of ranged?
15:09 < cbus> pretty much all the orcs were locked into their own islands
15:09 < cbus> so there was really no point in doing it
15:09 < cbus> (unless you had infinite ranged and levitation)
15:09 < cbus> and I had no levitation at all
15:10 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Doesn't removing amulet of rslow mess up saves?
15:11 <+Zaba> cbus, ah, that one's pretty evil
15:11 < syllogism> cbus: which manual was it, should be armor/fighting/shields
15:12 < cbus> didn't bother to ID
15:12 < cbus> had issues with an orc knight and saved for later progress
15:30 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: Yeah, changed major version
15:32 <+greensnark> Can we change the stair colour defaults?
15:32 <+greensnark> Visited stone stairs should be green/red in LOS and level map
15:32 <+greensnark> Unvisited stairs white
15:32 <+greensnark> Right now there's no way for new players to recognise the distinction between visited and unvisited stairs
15:32 <+greensnark> The white/lightgrey difference is too subtle
15:32 < syllogism> seems unintended really
15:33 < syllogism> there's a difference ? :P
15:33 <+greensnark> You can see it when they're side by side :P
15:36 < ais523> it's not subtle, it's really obvious on my terminal
15:36 < ais523> the colours are similar, but the bolding stands out massively
15:36 <+greensnark> You can certainly use a term that emphasises the diff
15:36 <+greensnark> But most players don't
15:37 <+greensnark> And it's the single most common question on ##crawl for players going from 0.5 to trunk
15:38 < ais523> perhaps you could make it so it's bolded on all terminals, if mine's doing that but other terminals aren't?
15:38 < Eronarn> or the colors could just be made different
15:38 <+greensnark> Changing the colours is the only reliable thing to do here
15:38 <+greensnark> The old colours worked pretty well
15:38 <+greensnark> They should be reinstated
15:39 <+greensnark> The old behaviour had inconsistency in colours of stairs in view and stairs outside LOS
15:39 <+greensnark> That can be eliminated
15:54 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Ahh, failed to know it would've been tags.cc/h instead of version.cc/h.
15:54 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:54 < Cryp71c> join ##crawl
15:54 < Henzell> Cryp71c: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
15:55 < Cryp71c> !messagesr
15:55 < Cryp71c> !messages
15:55 < Henzell> (1/1) Twinge_ said (11h 31m 13s ago): Pikel comes with 4 slaves which give no exp whatsoever, so there is more of a threat than is immediately apparent.
15:56 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * re31ea7d79da6 /crawl-ref/source/ (tilefont.cc tilefont.h tilesdl.cc): Experimentally draw tool tip below the mouse pointer rather than above.
15:56 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r80d8b3a8cd61 /crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: Experimentally always draw tile names in the inventory header line.
15:56 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r6a06a01ea4fd /crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/features.txt: Add a perfunctory shaft description.
15:56 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rb9443559cddf /crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/features.txt: Move Ely's white altar description back into alphabetic order.
16:00 <+Keskitalo> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2174-g40b5e8b (16.0)
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16:04 < syllogism> nice
16:05 < syllogism> 1/3 piety penalty when taking the amulet of faith off is pretty hars :P
16:05 < syllogism> h
16:05 -!- eith [n=eith@86-40-254-250-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:05 < Ashenzari> The poison poisoned arrow of flame hits you! (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=388) by Core Xii
16:05 <+doy> what's the amulet of faith do?
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16:06 < ais523> doy: increases piety gains
16:06 < syllogism> - Piety gain is 1/3 faster.
16:06 < syllogism> - Gods that protect from harm are more likely to do so (your piety is 1/3rd
16:06 < syllogism>   higher for such checks).
16:06 < syllogism> - Xom piety walk is 1/3 faster.
16:06 < syllogism> - Xom is more likely to act.
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16:07 <+greensnark> poison poisoned arrow of flame <3
16:08 <+greensnark> "With what is the arrow poisoned?" "With poison!"
16:08 < Zannick> *poisonous* poison
16:14 < CIA-81> by * r1e1a9815d4a8 /crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Pass on quiet flag in monster_blink.
16:14 < CIA-81> by * r7f9e4fc838aa /crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Blink quietly when timing out monster confusion.
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16:15 < Ero_> ...does amulet of piety result in getting more gifts?
16:15 < Ero_> because if so that's so broken
16:15 < syllogism> it does, but you lose one third of your piety when you take it off
16:16 < syllogism> so you cant really swap in an amulet of mutation etc
16:16 < syllogism> err res mutation
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16:17 < Ero_> syllogism: yeah but i mean, put it on in hive or orc, take it off at the end
16:17 < syllogism> that won't really do you any good
16:17 < syllogism> and you'll lose like 50+ piety afterwards
16:17 -!- by [n=rob@ze353.pia.fu-berlin.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
16:18 < Ero_> syllogism: you can usually get 3+ oka gifts between the two
16:18 -!- by [n=rob@ze353.pia.fu-berlin.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
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16:18 < Ero_> you should end up with an expected +1 gift or so for doing that
16:19 < syllogism> who has a trunk rc that fixes greedy explore
16:19 <+greensnark> syllogism: Wait, you haven't played trunk before? :P
16:19 <+greensnark> Amulet of rage <3
16:19 <+greensnark> GG
16:19 < syllogism> I struggled through one game with the broken greedy explore :P
16:19 < syllogism> it wasn't broken before that
16:20 < syllogism> Ero_: yes you MIGHT get one extra gift but you'll also lose more piety than you gain
16:20 < Cryp71c> syllogism, yeah I don't play anything other than trunk nowadays, even being in the US, turn on compression and there's a setting in game that you can uncomment and the latency is very tolerable.
16:20 < Ero_> syllogism: only if you take it off too soon
16:21 < syllogism> Ero_: well at 200 piety you'll lose 66 piety when you take it off
16:22 < syllogism> Cryp71c: trunk is all I've ever played, the problem is someone broke greedy explore recently and I don't know how to fix it
16:22 < Ero_> even accounting for the piety stepdown that's trivial to overcome
16:22 < syllogism> just uncommenting the lines didn't do much
16:22 < Ero_> nevermind, say, nemelex
16:22 < syllogism> Eronarn: hurr one oka gift, big deal
16:22 < Ero_> where you can sac hundreds of items at once
16:23 < Cryp71c> syllogism, greedy explore?
16:23 < syllogism> so autoexplore stops when it picks up items
16:23 < syllogism> greensnark: is your rc sane? :P
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16:25 < syllogism> explore_stop = items,greedy_pickup,stairs,shops,altars,gates
16:25 < syllogism> is it that greedy_pickup
16:25 < syllogism> mine says greedy_items
16:26 <+doy> the differences i've noticed is that it doesn't stop when picking up gold, and it doesn't stop on piles of items if nothing gets picked up
16:26 < syllogism> oh now it works
16:26 <+doy> mine stops when picking up normal items though
16:26 < syllogism> it wasn't stopping at all
16:26 < syllogism> changing greedy_items to greedy_pickup fixed it
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16:29 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
16:30 < Ashenzari> placing travel exclusion after teleport-  exclusion is placed, but does not show up on level map. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=389) by PigVomit
16:32 <+doy> something else that might be nice for lair: a chance of replacing all water with trees on water levels
16:34 <+greensnark> Ero_: Can you add your comments re "oFaith to the wiki?
16:35 < Ashenzari> Trees Reflect Lightning bolts (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=390) by PigVomit
16:36 < syllogism> nice
16:36 <+doy> heh
16:36 < Ero_> greensnark: later, in work meeting
16:36 <+greensnark> doy: Lair is nice!
16:37 < MarvinPA> hmm
16:37 <+greensnark> !tell due No Dowan and Duvessa. Admit it, you're protecting them from me.
16:37 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
16:37 <+doy> greensnark: i'm vaguely worried that :7-8 might have too many plants, but yeah, i'm pretty happy with it overall
16:37 <+greensnark> !tell due I have exposed your evil protection racket.
16:37 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
16:38 <+greensnark> How many plants do you have on 7-8
16:38 < MarvinPA> there must be a way i can stop my irc client from parsing all the mantis links that get posted in here as having ")" at the end of them :(
16:38 <+greensnark> As long as you stay below 200 or so, there won't be problems
16:38 <+doy> greensnark: haven't actually counted
16:38 <+doy> pretty sure it's less than 200, but it's fairly dependent on the level layout
16:38 <+greensnark> Can run the place-population script after removing the plant exception
16:38  * greensnark checks.
16:39 <+doy> so things like rooms+corridors will generate a lot more plants than things like water levels
16:39 <+doy> since more walls are being removed
16:39 <+greensnark> The script should report std dev in addition to average
16:41 <+greensnark> Looks like only around 105 plants/fungi/bushes on Lair:8
16:41 <+greensnark> On average
16:42 <+greensnark> Which is fine
16:42 <+doy> alright, that's good
16:42 <+greensnark> Shoals uses more :P
16:42 <+doy> (:
16:45 < Napkin> could it be that lair has become quite more difficult?
16:45 < Napkin> because of uniques showing up earlier?
16:46 <+doy> possible, but that's not really lair-specific
16:47 < Napkin> agreed
16:47 < Napkin> Aizul in orc3 was kinda harsh too.. no?
16:47 <+doy> ??branch depths
16:47 < Henzell> branch depths[1/2]: Blade=Vault:4-6, Crypt=Vault:2-4, Elf=Orc:3-4, Hive=D:11-16, Lair=D:8-13,  Orc=D:6-11, Shoal=Lair:2-7, Slime=Lair:8-10, Snake=Lair:3-8, Swamp=Lair:2-7, Temple=D:4-7, Tomb=Crypt:2-3, Vault=D:14-19, Zot=D:27
16:48 <+doy> must have had a quite deep orc entry
16:48 < Napkin> 10, yes
16:48 <+doy> aizul doesn't show up until depth 13, i believe
16:48 < Napkin> does that mean, when orc mines entry is early, the monsters in there will be easier too?
16:48 <+doy> yeah, to some extent
16:48 < Napkin> ow
16:49 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:49 < Napkin> interesting though
16:49 <+doy> monster difficulty is based on absolute depth
16:50 < Napkin> e.g. I expected Snake pit to be same difficult, not matter if entry is in lair3 or lair8
16:50 <+doy> although branches also have individual monster rarities, which are fixed
16:50 <+doy> so it's not *that* much of a difference
16:51 < Napkin> well.. considering I couldn't advance through lair3.. and you get advices to check orcish mines instead
16:51 <+doy> at that point in the game, you should at least have the option of descending into lair, orc, and main dungeon (and possibly hive)
16:51 < Napkin> seens like a rather big difference if i mean.. i don't know.. sigmund in orc2 or Aizul in orc3
16:52 < Napkin> -if
16:52 <+doy> if all of those get cut off regularly that's an issue, but i don't think that's the case currently
16:52 < Napkin> *seems..
16:52 < Napkin> omg.. sorry for those typos
16:52 <+doy> i don't mind one or two of them having tougher monsters which forces you to go elsewhere
16:52 <+doy> or forces you to dive through a level
16:53 < Napkin> but.. you see - i would never again tell someone "oh, check orcs then"
16:53 <+doy> why not?
16:53 <+doy> it's good advice
16:53 < Napkin> not really
16:53 <+doy> aizul could show up on D:13 or Lair:5 too
16:53 <+doy> it's not like this is specific to orc
16:53 < Napkin> i would first have to ask, whether the entrance is in D6 or D11
16:54 < syllogism> the odds are aizul wont be there no matter where the entrance is...
16:54 <+doy> also that
16:54 < syllogism> you could just as well take down the stairs and find yourself next to an orc warlord
16:54 < Napkin> you compare aizul with a warlord?
16:55 < syllogism> sure if it's next to you
16:55 <+doy> or if it has a crossbow
16:55 <+doy> those things are pretty serious
16:55 < Napkin> well, if you argue like that, you could also... this is useless
16:55 < syllogism> !lm * uniq=aizul place=orc
16:55 < Henzell> 2. [2010-01-11] clouded the Farming Cryomancer (L27 MuCj) killed Aizul on turn 528681. (Orc:3)
16:56 < Napkin> good to know, it's quite sucky nevertheless
16:57 <+doy> Napkin: sure, but monster difficulty variance and unique difficulty are part of the game, and intended
16:57 <+doy> within limits of course
16:57 <+doy> but it's not intended that you be able to fight and defeat every monster you come across
16:57 < Napkin> heh
16:57 < Napkin> yes, dad
16:57 <+doy> at the time you come across it
16:57 < Napkin> seriously though
16:58 <+doy> learning to judge monster difficulty and figuring out when to run away is part of the game
16:58 < Napkin> you fight and run and hide and escape until you finally find Lair entrance at 13 - and then you meet depth 14 monther in lair1?
16:58 < Napkin> far from being nice.
16:58 < Napkin> that's not what I am talking about, doy
16:58 < syllogism> you can't really even tell the difference
16:59 <+doy> yeah, depth differences of a couple levels aren't really noticeable
16:59 <+doy> hobgoblins are native to depth 6, as sorear is fond of pointing out
16:59 < Napkin> you are telling me, there is not much difference between.. e.g. d8 and d10?
17:00 < Napkin> there's a definite jump in difficulty
17:00 < syllogism> that's not the same though
17:00 < Napkin> wasn't that just said?
17:00 < Napkin> nevermind
17:00 < syllogism> can't really compare lair and dungeon depths
17:06 < Ashenzari> CK starting skills don't match starting items (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=391) by OG17
17:07 < Cryp71c> Hrm, just tele'd 20 spaces into a closed room, killed an orc and within 10 turns, the ogre and hounds that were following me had opened the door, following me.
17:07 < Cryp71c> Is this a monster memory issue, you think, or they just heard the combat?
17:08 <+doy> there was a bug earlier where monsters would know where you were after a teleport, but i'm pretty sure it was fixed
17:09 < Cryp71c> doy, yeah...i'm not sure it was...
17:09 < eith> what kinda char are you? they probly heard you
17:09 < Cryp71c> TrMo
17:09 < eith> not the stealthiest of races
17:09 < Cryp71c> erwait
17:09 < Cryp71c> DSMo
17:27 < Cryp71c> lol
17:27 < Cryp71c> "Xom adds some personal touches to your enviornment"
17:27 < Cryp71c> 5 altars of xom spawn
17:27 < ais523> do altars of xom actually do anything to a xomite?
17:28 < syllogism> no
17:28 < ais523> actually, it would be much funnier if the altars followed you around like wandering mushrooms
17:28 <+greensnark> Altars should be of interest to their deities
17:28 < cbus> hmm, I wonder if I should restart this HaHu
17:28 < cbus> :D
17:28 <+greensnark> So if a Makhleb worshipper swanks past a TSO altar, TSO might smite them :P
17:29 <+greensnark> It would make the Temple interesting :P
17:29 <+greensnark> "Become a Zin worshipper and make it out ALIVE" challenge
17:29 <+greensnark> :P
17:29 < syllogism> should I tediously pillar dance this hydra until for 500 turns or take my chances with blink at "great"? :P
17:29 <+greensnark> Blink already
17:29 <+greensnark> If it dies, we will laugh
17:29 < cbus> greensnark, ca nyou try something for me?
17:29 < cbus> greensnark, press :
17:29 < cbus> and see if you can get more than 1 line
17:30 < cbus> in the comment (cause it blocks after 80 chars have been reached (instead of newlining))
17:34 <+greensnark> cbus: Not right now, on phone
17:34 < cbus> ok
17:34 < CIA-81> greensnark * r4fd99e7de430 /crawl-ref/source/scripts/place-population.lua: Make place-population also report max, min and sigma for monsters generated per level.
17:34 < cbus> greensnark, got another fast thing to try if you have time
17:34 < cbus> ok, oka ammo gifting is pretty bad
17:34 < cbus> he keeps gifting me +0 stones
17:39 <+doy> cbus: what are your skills like?
17:42 < cbus> some armour or long blades would be nice
17:42 < cbus> finished the game anyway, restarting in new version
17:43 < cbus> no point in continuing when there are new amulets to try :)
17:43 < cbus> (I did have blinking if I wanted to live)
17:45 < syllogism> oh monsters (animals?) wont try to navigate around plants and wont attack them??
17:45 <+doy> they won't try to navigate around glass walls either, i noticed
17:46 < syllogism> yeah but they used to attack plants
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17:58 < cbus> @?? orc priest
17:58 < Gretell> orc priest (o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-21 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 6 | Flags: evil | Res: magic(16) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 41 | Sp: pain, cantrip, smiting, minor healing.
17:58 < cbus> The orc priest invokes the aid of Beogh against you.
17:58 < cbus> Pain shoots through your body!
17:58 < cbus> how can he do that when I'm invisible?
17:59 <+doy> i think monsters can guess where you are based on noises and such
17:59 < Cryp71c> cbus, monsters are pretty good on guessing where you're at.
17:59 <+doy> i wouldn't say "pretty good"
17:59 <+doy> but it does happen
18:02 < Cryp71c> doy, with any intelligent creature, they've guessed my position more often than not
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18:06 < cbus> btw
18:06 < cbus> slings really seem to do work properly :)
18:06 < cbus> its a refreshing and nice change
18:08 < Cryp71c> what was up with them before?
18:08 < cbus> cryp71c, try :D
18:08 < CIA-81> greensnark * r04163afa8a2c /crawl-ref/source/dgn-shoals.cc: Set hard limit of 180 plants per Shoals level, reduce density of plant clusters.
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18:22 < Vandal> cbus you mean they do enough damage to matter?
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18:37 < cbus> vandal, yeah
18:37 < cbus> or atleast when I tried
18:37 < cbus> just need a decent deity that gifts ammo :)
18:37 < cbus> oka seems to get stuck up on +0 stones
18:37 <+doy> cbus: ah, that was with a slings character?
18:37 <+doy> should bump up the probability of sling bullets, maybe
18:37 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-157-7.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
18:38 <+doy> they're pretty rare in general
18:39 < cbus> doy, yeah, slings was the highest skill
18:39 <+doy> and stones can't be branded, except by the launcher
18:39 < cbus> doy, I got some darts too, no armour or weapons (I was dodging+slings+long blades)
18:39 < cbus> I had like 12 slings, 9 long blades
18:39 <+doy> hmmm
18:39 < cbus> (and 2 or 3 in short blades, but I avoided tarining it since I was planning on going dodging with shields, and slings+long blades)
18:39 < cbus> try it out
18:39 < cbus> works pretty nice
18:40 < cbus> just oka that worked weird (could just be "my luck") :)
18:40 <+doy> (:
19:00 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-162-222.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:02 <+doy> once we get around to ditching oka, we should probably consider making ammo gifts part of another god (new vehumet?)
19:02 <+doy> since ammo mulches, that's less problematic than regular item gifts
19:02 <+doy> and would provide a way to get access to all of the new brands that we're making
19:07 <+Keskitalo> Is there ammo acquirement?
19:07 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-159-218.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
19:17 < cbus> doy, or thief
19:17 <+doy> cbus: sure, for needles at least
19:18 <+doy> but i'm assuming new vehumet will probably go in before thief
19:22 < Vandal> stones should not be giftable
19:22 < Vandal> seriously :P
19:22 < cbus> yeah :)
19:22 < cbus> doy, I'm gonna start a new game and I'll record the gifts :D
19:22 < cbus> does that sound nice?
19:22 < Vandal> maybe like
19:23 < Vandal> if your god hates you
19:23 < Vandal> you get stones
19:23 <+doy> cbus: sure
19:23 < Vandal> like Santa giving you a lump of coal
19:23 < cbus> vandal, or if its xom
19:23 < cbus> doy, how is trog with ammo?
19:23 < Vandal> Trog does ammo too
19:23 <+doy> Vandal: if all gifts are useful, we'll have to turn down the gift frequency quite a bit
19:23 < cbus> I was gonna try it on the last Ha but it died before reaching the trog altar (not in temple!?)
19:23 < cbus> doy, the frequency was insane earlier
19:23 < Vandal> doy getting stones is like not even getting a gift
19:23 <+doy> cbus: i'm pretty sure oka and trog are the same, except trog doesn't do armour
19:23 < cbus> is that only for ammo or for all chars?
19:23 < Vandal> it is a waste of piety
19:23 < cbus> doy, cause my char wanted all of it, weapons, ammo and armour, but only got stones pretty much :)
19:23 < Vandal> completely
19:24 < cbus> with the exception of like 3x10 darts
19:24 < cbus> (flames, poisonous, frost)
19:24 < cbus> and a sling
19:24 <+doy> Vandal: this is part of how acquirement works (and is intended to work)
19:24 < cbus> brb, dinner
19:25 < Vandal> I never get stuck with stones
19:25 < Vandal> ever
19:25 <+doy> acquirements are guaranteed to be usable, not necessarily useful (although they have a better chance at that than normal floor items)
19:25 < Vandal> I bet what it is doing is considering stones to be actual ammo
19:25 <+doy> probably
19:25 <+doy> which they are
19:25 < Vandal> just fix that then
19:25 <+doy> but they are actual ammo
19:26 < Vandal> take Stones out of the acquirements for Slings :P
19:26 < Vandal> I know for a fact bows do not get gifted stones just because you can still throw them
19:26 < Vandal> you get heaps of cool arrows
19:26 < Vandal> egos, +4 or higher enchants, woooo bows 
19:26 <+doy> Vandal: but you can sling stones
19:26 < eith> you get plenty of +0 crap arrows too
19:26 <+doy> you can't sling arrows
19:27 <+doy> and you can't shoot stones out of a bow
19:27 <+doy> and what eith said
19:27 < Vandal> slings are already still the lowest damage ranged weapon, and now their acquirement system is also retarded
19:27 < Vandal> oh well, leave it that way if you want, it is Bad Design imo
19:27 < ais523> just make acquired stones /really awesome/
19:27 < Vandal> alternatively
19:28 <+doy> Vandal: you get +0 arrows, +0 animal skins, etc from acquirement
19:28 <+doy> this is part of how it work
19:28 < Vandal> make bows and everything else get horrible ammo too
19:28 < eith> do you get sling bullets too sometimes?
19:28 <+doy> s
19:28 < ais523> say, a stone that antimulches
19:28 <+doy> eith: i assume so
19:28 < ais523> you fire it, and then pick up two of them when you go over to where you were
19:28 < Vandal> a +0 arrow is far preferred over a stone
19:28 < Vandal> much more damage
19:28 < Vandal> you should be comparing +0 bullets to +0 arrows
19:28 < Vandal> not stones
19:31 < Vandal> also cbus you don't really need to play a game just for recording that info
19:31 < Vandal> they already have all the tables with acquirement weights
19:31 < Vandal> they can tell you what the odds are of getting stones
19:32 <+doy> seeing data from actual games could be helpful though... maybe there are bugs!
19:32 < Vandal> well it would be a simple matter to check the weight on stones with Slings as your primary weapon skill
19:32 < Vandal> before he has to do all that
19:32 < Vandal> then you could compare the weighted value to what he actually gets
19:33 < Vandal> that would be how you spot a bug :)
19:33 <+doy> go for it
19:33 < Vandal> what file is it in?
19:33 <+doy> no idea
19:34 < Vandal> would be in the dat directory somewhere?
19:34 < eith> it could literally be anywhere
19:34 < Vandal> the only file named acquirement is a png
19:34 <+doy> pretty sure it's in the code
19:34 < Vandal> or just "acq"
19:34 < MarvinPA> makeitem.cc, quite possibly?
19:35 <+doy> !source acquire
19:35 < Henzell> Lines pasted to http://pastebin.com/m1b4bc1b8
19:35 < Vandal> boo
19:35 <+doy> well, grep for parts of that
19:35 <+doy> that should tell you what file it's in
19:35 < Vandal> trying that
19:39 < Vandal> Does makeitem only cover dungeon generated items?
19:40 < eith> its in effects.cc
19:40 <+doy> you could read the code and find out
19:40 < Vandal> I am
19:40 < Vandal> I don't see anything
19:40 < eith> its in effects.cc
19:40 < Vandal> thanks eith
19:43 < Vandal> Ok
19:43 < Vandal> this looks suspicious
19:43 < Vandal> static missile_type _acquirement_missile_subtype(){    int count = 0;    int skill = SK_THROWING;    for (int i = SK_SLINGS; i <= SK_THROWING; i++)
19:43 < Vandal> Why is it doing something with Throwing into Slings?
19:44 < Vandal> Probably because of the old throwing + slings stuff, just like the old throwing + darts
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19:45 < Vandal> I don't know if this means Throwing skill is added to Slings for the purpose of acquirement, or what though
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19:47 < Vandal> sorry cbus, I can look at code but I don't know how to decipher what it means
19:48 < Vandal> there is also a reference below that to darts with crossbow
19:48 < Vandal> that should be fixed since minixbow is gone
19:49 < Vandal> !tell due You may want to check out effects.cc line 1466 down, there is some tie-in between Throwing / Slings, and Darts / Xbows in there.
19:49 < Henzell> Vandal: OK, I'll let due know.
19:49 <+Keskitalo> Vandal: Thanks for digging that one up!
19:49 < Vandal> np
19:50 < Vandal> !tell due the cause of this was trying to figure out why Slings skill ammo acquirement is giving a whole lot of stones and very few bullets
19:50 < Henzell> Vandal: OK, I'll let due know.
19:50 < eith> it seems like it doesnt give bullets at all to me
19:50 <+doy> that should probably be fixed then
19:50 <+Keskitalo> I'd be fine with regular bullets instead of stones..
19:54 < Vandal> may be solving 2 issues at once here
19:54 < Vandal> eliminating dart acquirement for xbow users
19:54 < Vandal> though I'm not sure
19:54 < eith> arrows and stones are 1d4 though and bullets are 1d6
19:54 < Cryp71c> BTW, there seems to be a wierd thing on trunk...on D 2-3 there exist a stack of 4 orc spears (which may get picked up by the 2-3 orcs I've happened to see around the pile before)
19:54 < Vandal> they might not acquire darts if they don't have a minixbow
19:54 < Cryp71c> but all of the 4 spears (at least on the 3-4 games i've played and seen them) are +1 +2
19:54 < Vandal> and since no one can have minixbows
19:54 < Cryp71c> always.
19:55 < Vandal> it might never generate darts for xbow users
19:55 <+doy> Cryp71c: that's because all throwing weapons stack in monster inventory
19:55 <+doy> Cryp71c: and so they all have to be identical
19:55 < Cryp71c> ahhhh
19:55 < Cryp71c> ok
19:55 <+doy> (when a monster is generated)
19:56 <+doy> could probably stand to be fixed, but it would be moderately difficult
19:58 < Cryp71c> yay for rP randarts on D4
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20:21 < Eronarn> greensnark: put that comment up in amulets - though the amulet wiki page doesn't list the same stats that were listed in IRC
20:25 < Eronarn> kilobyte: Are you against the lev/flight merge just because of the # of uncontrolled lev sources? I made that suggestion for the spell, only. (The ring could possibly also do it, but perhaps requiring quite high Evo.)
20:25 < Eronarn> Potions, miscasts, etc. would remain uncontrolled
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20:28 <+doy> i like splitting it into amulet of control and amulet of flight, with flight giving longer durations for all lev/flying effects, and being invokable for flight (but not reinvokable)
20:29 < Eronarn> amulet of control?
20:29 <+doy> due's proposal under that
20:29 <+doy> merge controlled flight with ring of tc
20:29 <+doy> and ditch ring of tc
20:30 < Eronarn> ah - yeah that one's ok
20:30 < Eronarn> the problem i have with it is that controlled flight and controlled tele don't really have anything to do with each other
20:31 < Eronarn> this is the same problem with Warding currently
20:31 < Eronarn> i think each amulet should have a single clear theme
20:31 < ais523> hmm, TC and control flight are similar in a way
20:31 < ais523> they're both directing magics that are otherwise rather out of control
20:32 < ais523> maybe it should also cause offensive spells to always do exactly average damage
20:32 < Eronarn> ais523: this is too vague - "warding" effects are both a kind of ward, sure
20:32 < ais523> and anger Xom
20:32 < Eronarn> but it should be something easily grasped
20:32 < Eronarn> conservation is good - "protects items". (not affecting acid is less than ideal, but you get the picture)
20:33 <+by> orc:4 is supposed to be connected, right?
20:33 < Eronarn> gourmand - all effects are eating related
20:33 <+doy> by: i believe so
20:33 < Eronarn> amulet of will proposal - no paralysis, involuntary tele/berserk, mesmerising, confusion, possibly shouting. it's just you having a strong will and overcoming these effects that normally only magic resistance affects (if even that)
20:34 < Eronarn> "control" is very vague
20:36 < Eronarn> to think of how you might control teleports... skill at manipulating space, foreknowledge of your destination site, luck
20:37 < Ashenzari> orc:4 not always connected (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=392) by rob
20:37 < Eronarn> so, "amulet of spatial manipulation" - gives you cTele, for you and for anything that blinks/teles in your LOS
20:37 < Eronarn> would be a cool one, for me
20:39 <+doy> how would that work?
20:43 < ais523> a monster tries to tele, you choose where it goes
20:43 < ais523> like monsterpolycontrol in NetHack
20:46 < Eronarn> yes. your options are in your LOS, or cancel for random outside your LOS
20:46 < Eronarn> since you should never want random, but still in your LOS
20:48 < cbus>  A kobold zombie, wielding a glowing elven dagger.
20:48 < cbus> is that "normal"?
20:48 < syllogism> zombies keep their items
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20:54 <+doy> Eronarn: sounds like it would be really irritating
20:54 <+doy> considering how often things tend to blink
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21:08 < Eronarn> doy: if you want to kill it, you'll kill it much faster if you can control its blink
21:08 < Eronarn> if you want to run, you can get rid of it with one control
21:09 < Eronarn> i agree that it could be annoying in some situations, but i think it would make blinking enemies less annoying in general
21:09 < Eronarn> so it would probably not be any worse than the current not-that-bad situation of blinking
21:10 < Eronarn> it may work better as a spell or misc item effect, though
21:12 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rbd7a961334fb /crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Implement rltiles %weight command and skewed dngn tile probabilities.
21:12 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rc9a153bf0e04 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/tool/tile_list_processor.cc: List tile weights in tile-dngn.html.
21:13 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r175d5142b658 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-dngn.txt: Replace the triple-defined water tiles with the appropriate %weights.
21:13 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r8faad6519eda /crawl-ref/source/tilepick.cc: Also apply _pick_random_dngn_tile() to animated feature tiles.
21:14 < TGW> could make it a blink magnet
21:14 < TGW> make your blinks hyper-short and theirs land next to you
21:20 < syllogism> this trog altar vault is evil :(
21:21 < syllogism> it has a book that burns when you go closer
21:21 < TGW> throw something on the book
21:21 < syllogism> too late
21:21 <+by> TGW: does that still work?
21:22 < TGW> by: yeah
21:22 < TGW> don't fix it!
21:22 < syllogism> is it a random book
21:22 <+doy> should be fixed
21:22 <+by> definitely should be fixed
21:22 < TGW> in the meantime
21:22 < TGW> make its owner "dirty cheaters"
21:22 <+doy> apportation works fine i'm pretty sure
21:22 <+doy> and leaving that is fine
21:30 < Twinge> Throwing something on it to put the fre out seems awesome.  But it shouldn't work for like rocks or arrows, only for bigger stuff or potions of water :)
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21:39 < syllogism> @?? moth of wrath
21:39 < Gretell> moth of wrath (y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 9 | Health: 27-72 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 25(rage) | Flags: fly | Res: magic(36) | XP: 501.
21:39 < syllogism> seems a bit tough for d2
21:39 < Twinge> D2?? 
21:40 < syllogism> oh right you can close the door, thought those were orcs
21:40 < Twinge> I've seen one early before, but only because of Xom...
21:40 < syllogism> !vault tgw_trog
21:40 < Henzell> Couldn't find tgw_trog in the Crawl source tree
21:40 <+doy> syllogism: it's encased in glass
21:40 < syllogism> oh
21:40 < TGW> how could you not notice
21:40 < TGW> :|
21:40 < TGW> do I need to change that vault?
21:41 < syllogism> reading the source
21:41 < CIA-81> by * ra6dc4a5857b6 /crawl-ref/source/dat/altar.des: In trog_book, burn all books at the book location.
21:41 <+by> they've never actually berserked for me
21:44 < TGW> I could make one with corners
21:44 < TGW> four of them... more berserking action
21:44 < TGW> I've had it happen, but it's sort of hard
21:44 <+doy> when i ran into it, the moth berserked a few things
21:44 <+doy> but they were rats
21:44 < TGW> the other thing I could do is make it spiral around the moth
21:44 < TGW> so you can't pull shit away from it
21:44 <+doy> so it's not like it really mattered
21:44 < TGW> erm, glass spiral
21:45 < TGW> so you can't just shout and get things out of its los
21:46 <+by> it's probably fine the way it is
21:46 <+by> it doesn't really need to be dangerous, right? nice flavour
21:48 <+doy> yeah, not all of them need to be dangerous
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22:03 < Twinge> speaking of dangerous low-level vaults, I don't think anyone changed Oklobs being able to spawn as one of the plants next to early Zin altars; not only is it a dangerous low-level enemy, but even moreso I don't think Zin would appreciate a freaky mutated plant next to his altar!  I don't think I ever submitted a formal FR for that one I guess...
22:08 < Vandal> yeah actually I ran into oklobs and fruit near a Fedhas one too, but I think that was intentional?
22:09 < Vandal> The oklobs couldn't hit you unless you destroyed plants in between them and you
22:10 <+doy> that seems fine to me
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22:13 < Twinge_> Fedhas makes sense at least, though
22:13 <+by> are ugly things brown by default?
22:14 < Twinge_> There is no default now I think?  They seemed to be pretty evenly distributed
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22:33 < CIA-81> kilobyte * rebd4b7165006 /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Change the messages on wielding a weapon of pain. (MarvinPA)
22:33 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r2131c7d87bfc /crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Don't mark weapons of pain as useless with Necro=0, they're same as unbranded.
22:39 < Napkin> Hmm.. has anyone got the crawl colors in html codes?
22:40 < cbus> napkin, doesn't that depend on the terminal?
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22:40 < Napkin> yes
22:40 < Napkin> of course
22:40 < TGW> now, stasis is -tele?
22:40 < Napkin> but still
22:40 < Napkin> just something similar at least
22:41 < Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/monster/index.php <- check "golden dragon"
22:41 < Napkin> is it at least a bit similar to what it should be?
22:42 <+by> nice! the red could be redder, but other than that it looks as expected
22:43 < Napkin> now?
22:44 < Napkin> it's kinda like the colors putty gives
22:44 <+by> I think it's better
22:45 <+sorear> Napkin: the classical CGA colors are #000, #A00, #0A0, #A50, #00A, #A0A, #0AA, #AAA, #555, #F55, #5F5, #FF5, #55F, #F5F, #5FF, #FFF
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22:46 < Napkin> ahh, thanks
22:46 <+sorear> by: What is 'messagewindow'?
22:47 <+by> sorear: message window on top of cgotoxy/cprintf
22:50 <+sorear> How does it differ from master?
22:50 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
22:51 <+by> there's just one copy of the message window code instead of four
22:51 <+by> also, the various mpr variants have been unified
22:51 <+by> and it's quite incomplete
22:52 <+doy> how far from complete is it?
22:53 <+by> it's only got delay_message_clear style currently; the leading dashes aren't right; no more prompts at all
22:53 <+by> then stuff like dumping and restoring messages is missing
22:54 <+by> on the plus side, messages are restored after say exiting the inventory display
22:54 <+doy> by: are you keeping track of messages separately from just keeping track of the entire window?
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22:56 <+by> yes
22:57 <+doy> sweet
22:57 <+doy> this will let us get the x2 stuff in the message window then
22:57 <+doy> which will be awesome
22:57 <+by> yes, that should work; it's currently history only?
22:57 <+doy> yeah
22:58 <+by> ah, didn't realize
22:59 <+by> there's some code there for recognizing duplicates; the x2 etc. isn't output however
23:01 < ais523> You continue putting on your armour. You continue putting on your armour. You continue putting on your armour. You continue putting on your armour. 
23:04 < Napkin> (new "page" Miscellaneous on the wordpress links to gretell's monster information (based on master branch))
23:11 <+by> I think the issue with condensing multi-turn message repeats is that they get flushed at turn-end
23:11 <+by> I've copied that behaviour for branch messagewindow so far
23:12 <+doy> that's reasonable
23:12 <+doy> what would probably be better would be for a flush to potentially update a previous line
23:12 <+doy> rather than always adding a new line
23:13 <+by> possibly
23:14 < CIA-81> by messagewindow * rdf9fdbfa36fb /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Output trailing x2, etc. for repeated messages.
23:15 <+by> currently, my idea behind the branch is not so much to do things better than before but just to have code that can actually be improved
23:15 <+doy> yeah
23:16 <+doy> but the message condensing is sort of targeted for 0.6 if at all possible
23:16 <+doy> so making it possible is a very good thing
23:16 <+doy> (:
23:17 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r599db8351e9b /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/tool/tile_list_processor.cc: Only display tile probabilities in the dngn html file.
23:18 <+by> some other options: just let the window scroll instead of print --more--; not printing new-lines between messages (on the same channel?)
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23:22 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r09547177cc15 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-dngn.txt: Replace another tile duplication with a weight setting.
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23:26 <+by> anyone interested is invited to work on that branch btw; can't promise quick progress
23:27 <+by> that includes redoing message_store / message_window differently; it's pretty ad hoc at the moment
23:27 <+by> sleep now
23:27 -!- by [n=rob@f052194229.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["night"]
23:32 < Napkin> !tell by by> some other options: just let the window scroll instead of print --more-- <- excellent! I propose a constant "*message missed*" or "*more*" message somewhere in the message window to inform players about missed messages - maybe even mark turns with missed ones in a certain way then in the ctrl+p window.
23:32 < Henzell> Maximum message length is 300 characters. Eschew verbosity, Gladys!
23:32 < Napkin> !tell by by> some other options: just let the window scroll instead of print --more-- <- excellent! I propose a constant "*message missed*" or "*more*" message somewhere in the message window to inform players about missed messages.
23:32 < Henzell> Napkin: OK, I'll let by know.
23:32 < CIA-81> dolorous * rab90ed61c319 /crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Remove forced update when gaining Necromancy while wielding a weapon of
23:33 < Napkin> is there a way to access learndb externally?
23:33 < Napkin> ?? learndb
23:33 < Henzell> learndb[1/1]: Try ??howtousethelearndb. A html page of learndb entries is at http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html
23:33 < Napkin> ??howtousethelearndb
23:33 < Henzell> howtousethelearndb[1/5]: The four main commands for the learndb are add, query, edit, and delete. See [2] for add, [3] and [4] for edit, [5] for query. You can read entries in private queries to Henzell. You cannot change it in private, however.
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23:53 < Ashenzari> Knowing one "brand" spell should make others cheaper. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=393) by minced
23:54 <+due> hi
23:54 < Henzell> due: You have 5 messages. Use !messages to read them.
23:56 <+due> Hm.
23:57 < Napkin> moin due!
23:57 <+due> hi Napkin!
23:57 < Napkin> :D
23:57 <+due> kilobyte: Looking into it.