00:00 < Vandal> but not good enough to stab a monster
00:00 <+doy> too small
00:00 <+doy> to be very good at it
--- Log closed Sun Jan 10 00:05:34 2010
--- Log opened Sun Jan 10 00:05:38 2010
00:05 -!- kilobyte [n=kilobyte@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:05 -!- Irssi: ##crawl-dev: Total of 41 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 8 voices, 30 normal]
00:05 < Vandal> irl
00:05 -!- Irssi: Join to ##crawl-dev was synced in 10 secs
00:05 < Vandal> Does anyone think Eronarn's idea really isn't worth trying?
00:06 < Eronarn> the glyph g is not for gnoll; it is for German
00:06 < Vandal> I would totally shut up if it worked like that
00:06 <@dpeg> Vandal: well, you would scream about something else! :)
00:06 < TGW> I don't like it
00:06 < Vandal> true, but the other things may possibly be more relevant in your opinion!
00:06 < TGW> it's almost never that you want to switch to dagger while immediately next to the enemy
00:07 < Vandal> I usually walk around with the dagger equipped
00:07 <+due> anyway
00:07 <+due> LAYOUTS
00:07 <@dpeg> L-A-Y-O-U-T-S
00:07 <+due> Does anyone have any ideas for improving the "branchiness" of, specifically, Orc, Hive, Slime Pits, and Lair?
00:07 < Vandal> thus there is chance of waking shit up while fumbling with a stupid knife
00:07 <+doy> due: wiki!
00:07 < Vandal> , er, no chance
00:07 <+doy> i made a bunch of proposals
00:08 <+due> oh
00:08 < TGW> due: any chance hive could generate rooms with the x.x.x.x.x. pattern?
00:08 <+due> Vandal: anyway, moving on.
00:08 <+due> TGW: yes
00:08 < Eronarn> due: slime: bubbles, start with a circle and then have smaller overlapping circles
00:08 < TGW> eronarn: cool
00:08 <+due> Eronarn: Did you see my "suggested" snake layout that I am working on?
00:08 < Eronarn> no
00:08 -!- eith [n=eith@86-40-254-250-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:08 <@dpeg> due: Hive become single-level portal vaults (with their own layouts).
00:09 <+due> http://sprunge.us/BOTg
00:09 < Eronarn> due: lair should have a ton of trees and monsters that can walk through them
00:09 <+due> dpeg: Yeah, I was just about to say maybe we can scratch hive from that list.
00:09 < Eronarn> big, wide tunnels filled with trees to turn them into smaller ones
00:09 <@dpeg> Orc is okay
00:09 < Eronarn> firedrakes should be able to burn them out, of course
00:09 <+doy> Eronarn: would prefer that to go towards a new forest branch/portal vault
00:09 < Eronarn> and all the trees on a level should be forest-fire-able
00:09 < TGW> orc is where the bubbly levels DO work great
00:09 <+doy> Eronarn: there have been some interesting proposals for that
00:10 < TGW> Eronarn: kilo is making a forest
00:10 < Eronarn> doy: yes, i made some :)
00:10 <@dpeg> no new branches until 1.0 
00:10 <+due> orc's bubbly levels work great
00:10 <+due> slime's are just annoying.
00:10 <@dpeg> due: I disagree.
00:10 <+due> and don't really feel "slimish".
00:10 <+doy> i think bubbles could work for slime
00:10 <@dpeg> due: I would solve that in other ways, not touching the bubbles.
00:10 < Eronarn> due: the bubbly i'm proposing would not be disconnected in the same way orc is
00:10 <+doy> worth trying out, anyway
00:10 <+due> dpeg: Well, part of it is that the bubbles are used permanently in orc, they're used in lair occasionally, they're used in hive, and they're used in slime.
00:10 < Eronarn> more like a cluster of bubbles overlapping partially
00:11 <+due> and very occasionally in Dungeon(?)?
00:11 <+doy> due: they should stop being used in lair
00:11 <+doy> and hive will be going away
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00:11 <@dpeg> due: yes, but they're okay in Orc and Slime. My proposal for SLime is much simpler: you take damage when next to walls.
00:11 < Eronarn> having small passages in Lair would be nice
00:11 <+doy> i really like the ruins idea for lair
00:12 <+due> Eronarn: It's nice, but it makes it easier.
00:13 <+due> Eronarn: http://sprunge.us/BOTg With windier corridors, I think this would be nice for Snake.
00:13 <@dpeg> due: windy corridors are hard to make
00:13 <+doy> i think it would be worth attempting
00:13 < Eronarn> due: i would adopt the circular-ish patterns seen at the end of snake
00:13 < TGW> doy: which idea?
00:13 <@dpeg> due: however, corridors made up of small rhombi (spelling?) are easier to make.
00:14 <+doy> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:layouts
00:14 <+doy> these are the ideas we've already come up with
00:14 < Eronarn> i don't really like the diamonds as much as i'd like circles
00:14 <+due> Eronarn: Circles are difficult and ugly.
00:14 <+doy> the diamonds are scale-like, which sort of works
00:14 <+doy> circles could work too
00:14 <+doy> or ellipses
00:15 <+due> Ellipses, yes, circles, no.
00:15 <+doy> yeah, ellipses would work better
00:15 <+due> I still like the diamond layout, though.
00:15 <+doy> problem with circles is that tiles in tiles are square, tiles in console are around 2:1
00:15 <+doy> so you're going to get ellipses anyway
00:16 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:16 < purge> @whereis greensnark
00:16 < Gretell> greensnark the Grappler (L12 OgMo), a worshipper of Trog, saved on Lair:8 on 2010-01-09 after 21202 turns.
00:16 <@dpeg> doy: yes. Have a look at the ellipsoid ziggurates.
00:16 <+due> I've worked out how swamp is made o_o
00:17 <+due> It converts doors to floor, walls to deep water, and floor, randomly, to shallow water.
00:17 <+doy> swamp layout stuff should be totally rewritten anyway, probably
00:17 < TGW> that's all?
00:18 <@dpeg> due: yes. Very primitive, isn't it?
00:18 < TGW> that seems like it should make obvious rooms
00:18 <+due> Yup.
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00:18 <+due> TGW: It does, if you pay enough attention.
00:18 < TGW> huh
00:18 < Eronarn> you never noticed? sounds like you haven't done swamp enough
00:18 <+doy> due: what's funny is that that layout thing can sometimes be applied to parts of other levels
00:18 <+doy> i've seen it happen in vaults
00:19 <+doy> it looks ridiculous
00:19 < TGW> eronarn: I try to avoid doing swamp
00:19 <@dpeg> doy: vaults or Vaults?
00:19 <+doy> Vaults
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00:19 < TGW> (by dying on D:1 if need be)
00:19 <+due> Anyway, I suck completely at layouts.
00:19 < Eronarn> i always do swamp. Completely.
00:19 <@dpeg> due: leave it to somebody else. There's soooo much to do.
00:19 < TGW> no wonder you're crazy
00:19 <+due> But my idea for swamp involves pools of deep watter surrounded by trees and shallow water.
00:20 < TGW> due: yes!
00:20 <+doy> due: sounds good
00:20 <+doy> i do think swamp should use trees rather than walls, in any case
00:20 <+due> Hm.
00:20 <@dpeg> If someone puts some effort into it, it would be possible to get beautiful maps. Perhaps we can lure Darshan into it.
00:20 <+due> That's easily done, to be honest.
00:20 < Eronarn> due: i think - generate points to be used as depressions, sometimes make rivers out of many linked depressions; out from depressions fill /w deep water until shallow water.
00:20 <+due> dpeg: That's what I was thinking.
00:20 < Eronarn> due: Trees should be compatible with shallow water if it's possible, IMO.
00:21 < TGW> a tree in shallow water?
00:21 < Eronarn> TGW: mangroves
00:21 <@dpeg> there should also be trees surrounded by deep water
00:21 <@dpeg> and bushes, too
00:21 <+due> We could make use of the circle generator.
00:21 < Eronarn> dpeg: bushes are kind of ridiculous at the moment
00:21 <@dpeg> too high HP?
00:21 < Eronarn> @??bush
00:21 < Gretell> bush (P) | Speed: 0 | HD: 20 | Health: 60-160 | AC/EV: 30/0 | Flags: plant | Res: magic(immune), poison | Vul: fire | XP: 0.
00:21 < Eronarn> that's pretty insane
00:22 < Eronarn> like, what justification is there for a bush being harder to destroy than an IRON TROLL.
00:22 <@dpeg> but they burn so nicely
00:22 < TGW> they're made of steel
00:22 <+due> Eronarn: It's concrete.
00:22 < syllogism> it's a very large bush
00:22 <@dpeg> these, my friend, are bushes of steel
00:23 <@dpeg> okay, I retire for now
00:23 < syllogism> a shrubbery even
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00:23 < Eronarn> syllogism: even a tree probably shouldn't be that strong, you can cut them down with hatchets
00:23 <+due> A SHRUBBERY
00:23 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:23 < TGW> g'day dpeg
00:23 < syllogism> cutting down a tree takes longer than killing something though
00:23 <@dpeg> if you want to do something useful, save and edit the weapons discussion :)
00:23 <@dpeg> yes
00:24 <@dpeg> and that burning down shrubbery is much faster than destroying it, is realistic
00:24 < Eronarn> syllogism: sure, but the point is that it's completely counterintuitive for a bush to be one of the most durable enemies in the game
00:24 < Eronarn> dpeg: no it's not
00:24 <@dpeg> okay!
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00:24 < syllogism> it's a wall, not an enemy
00:24 < syllogism> not saying it should have that much hp
00:24 <+due> I'd really like to see new level generators for Lair and Snake before 0.6.
00:25 < Eronarn> it's not a wall; if we want it to be a wall it should be a 7
00:25 < syllogism> but that reasoning isn't exactly flawless
00:25 <+doy> due: the one i have in mind for lair should be pretty trivial
00:25 <+due> doy: And the crypt one?
00:25 < Eronarn> (note that when tree walls were originally proposed i *favored* them having bush-like stats, i just disagree with bushes having them :P)
00:25 <+doy> due: hopefully
00:25 <+due> Eronarn: It doesn't matter?
00:26 < Eronarn> due: Everything matters.
00:26 <+due> It does't, shush. Focuss on something important instead.
00:26 <+doy> dungeon.cc is huge, i think i'll be reading for a while
00:26 <+doy> (:
00:27 <+due> doy: Yeah, I didn't bother :)
00:27 < purge> I just had the thought that the problem with mid-game is that there are several places you can go of equal difficulty(i.e. not much) so its like the difficulty graph is steep, then levels off for a long while, then it goes up again
00:27 < ortoslon> tiles bug: hobgoblin skeletons show the same green 'contaminated' icon as hobgoblin meat
00:28 < purge>  while the graph should consistently climb imo
00:28 <+Enne> The message is clear: don't eat hobgoblin skeletons.  ;)
00:28 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:28 < Vandal> Crashes are fun :/
00:28 <+doy> Enne: any thoughts on that wizmode prompt bug?
00:29 <+due> Enne!
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00:29 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA
00:30 < Vandal> What is the official terminology of Stabbing, Armour, Fire, Conjuration, etc..? Are they ALL Schools?
00:30 <+due> Vandal: Yes.
00:30 <+doy> Vandal: skills
00:30 < Vandal> Ok :)
00:30 < purge> is it a bug that uniques will use a wand even if its weaker than their spells?
00:30 < Vandal> One or the other, come on guys
00:30 < syllogism> purge: not really
00:30 < purge> like josephine was just spamming a wand of frost whereas her bolt of negative energy/bolt of cold would have been much better
00:30 < Vandal> I don't want to make Eronarn's wiki messy
00:30 <+due> purge: Yeah.
00:30 < Vandal> It has a sub-category for Schools
00:31 < Eronarn> Vandal: magic schools are Necromancy, Fire, etc.
00:31 <+due> They're skill schools.
00:31 < Vandal> And physical schools ?
00:31 < Vandal> Are they all schools then?
00:31 < Eronarn> there are no physical schools
00:31 < syllogism> no
00:31 < Eronarn> all magical skills are skills
00:31 < Eronarn> all physical skills are skills
00:31 < Vandal> Ok so all schools are skills, but not all skills are schools
00:31 < Eronarn> not all magical skills are schools
00:32 < Vandal> New catagory going up then
00:32 < Eronarn> evocations, invocations, and spellcasting are not schools of magic; the other skills of magic are
00:32 < Vandal> category.. jeeze I spelled it right the first time
00:33 < TGW> well, "catagory" is closer than "right"
00:33 < TGW> how many skills are there?
00:34 < Vandal> I call racism
00:34 < Vandal> dialectism
00:35 < Ashenzari> Uniques will attack with wands weaker than their spells if they have them (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=375) by purge
00:35 < Eronarn> TGW: close to 27, actually
00:35 < syllogism> that's not really a bug
00:35 < TGW> eronarn: I thought it was 27 in 052
00:35 < syllogism> uniques will also use melee which is always weaker than their spells
00:35 < TGW> but I didn't feel like finding 052 just to count
00:36 < syllogism> and uniques always have one spell which is better than the rest
00:36 < syllogism> I guess you can do something about it, but doesnt seem worthwhile
00:36 -!- |eith| [n=eith@86-40-254-250-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:36 < syllogism> they also use darts
00:36 < Eronarn> TGW: it may be 27, i was counting in the context of my proposal
00:36 < Eronarn> and ended up with like... 29 or 30, after adding a few skills
00:37 < TGW> what did you add?
00:37 <+due> _make_trail seems interesting.
00:38 < Eronarn> TGW: the ench split one, i mean
00:38 < TGW> oh
00:38 < TGW> well, we got rid of div so it's cool
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00:38 < TGW> and darts
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00:40 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v kilobyte] by ChanServ
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00:50 < Vandal> jeeze
00:51 < Vandal> if not crashing, kittens decide the power strip is the best place to start playing
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01:02 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rde609203129e /crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Change Lugonu's ^ screen to say "corrupted" rather than "blessed".
01:02 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r1a0866d42549 /crawl-ref/source/ (tilepick.cc tilesdl.cc): Don't display chunk/corpse brands for herbivores.
01:02 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rf1a12d12411a /crawl-ref/source/exclude.cc: Add a message when an autoexclusion is placed because of a monster.
01:02 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r9d79dc038f1d /crawl-ref/source/exclude.cc: Don't annotate fog generator exclusions as monster-triggered.
01:02 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r0f55e73c6f9d /crawl-ref/source/ (exclude.cc exclude.h monster.cc tags.h): Also list cloud type for fog generator exclusion annotations.
01:02 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r1dd63762690a /crawl-ref/source/exclude.cc: Combine identical exclusion annotation descriptions.
01:17 < CIA-81> doy * r6234b8246f73 /crawl-ref/source/exclude.cc: fix exclude.cc compile
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01:21 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rf9fdd3ccb28e /crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Fix 0000374: All subtypes equal to Geryon's treated as unsafe sacrifice.
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01:33 < MarvinPA> woo i managed to build crawl from the source and change stuff
01:33 <+doy> woo
01:34 < Vandal|LT> How do I comment in the mailing list?
01:34 < Vandal|LT> I want to say something re: paralysis needles topic
01:34 <+sorear> press Reply
01:34 < Vandal|LT> Oh, ok
01:34 < MarvinPA> it took far too long to figure out how to get it working, but i feel like this is an achievement :P
01:34 <+doy> make sure it goes to crawl-ref-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net
01:34 < Vandal|LT> nice one Marvin
01:34 <+doy> and not to the actual author of the email
01:34 < Vandal|LT> yeah, that was what I was wondering about
01:34 < Vandal|LT> thanks doy
01:37 < Cryp71c> wooo, 2 fixes of mine in trunk
01:37 <+doy> hmmm, i think i have a decent implementation of the lair layout
01:37 -!- Twinge- is now known as Twinge
01:39 < Vandal|LT> nice Cryptic
01:41 < CIA-81> doy * rca5fe3a360d0 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: implement 'ruined level' idea for lair layouts
01:42 <+doy> people should tell me how they think this looks ^^
01:43 < Vandal|LT> How?
01:44 <+doy> well, build it and generate some lair levels
01:44 < Vandal|LT> computer is a bit crash-happy tonight.. I'm probably not the best person for that
01:44 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
01:45 < Vandal> :/
01:45 <+Enne> We really need a command-line option to dump an ascii/tiles screenshot from a generated level.
01:46 <+Enne> So you could just paste it for us and we could look without building.  :)
01:46 <+due> Hi!
01:46 <+due> Enne: There is
01:46 <+due> Enne: Darshan did one last night
01:47 < Napkin> Hey guys :)
01:47 < Vandal> due: how do Darts compare to Daggers as a Throwing Weapon?
01:48 < Vandal> I think it may be worth upping their base damage to match Dagger if it isn't already
01:48 < Napkin> Enne, sorry for not writing to the mailinglist about "dad & tiles" yet
01:48 <+due> Base damage isn't an issue
01:48 < Napkin> busy/lazy/busy/lazy :-$
01:48 < Vandal> Not every stack you find has a brand on it
01:48 <+due> The issue with darts is there is a massive damage variance per hit.
01:48 < Vandal> oh?
01:48 <+due> I need to chat to Darshan about it.
01:49 < Vandal> I've just noticed they were kind of underwhelming without a brand on my Assassin
01:49 < Vandal> reminded me of throwing rocks
01:49 <+Enne> due: Hooray for Darshan.  :)
01:49 < Vandal> He had 10 or so Throwing too
01:49 <+Enne> Napkin: No hurry or need for apologies.  :)
01:49 < Napkin> you don't happen to speak/read German by any chance?
01:49 < Napkin> Just finished the second report to David and Johanna
01:50 < Napkin> I could just forward it to you..?
01:50 <+Enne> Sadly, no.
01:50 < Napkin> <3 darts now!
01:51 <+due> I need to learn German one day.
01:51 < Napkin> first game after the change.. and I was suddently thinking "Uhm.. stop that! or your MDFi will have dart tosser title soon!" :D
01:51 < Twinge> Learning German WOULD give you a little better access to good board games.
01:52 < Napkin> heh - when I was younger and playing lots of board games - almost all the good ones came from the US
01:52 < TGW> is it now possible to give arbitrary MP+ to artefacts?
01:53 <+doy> http://tozt.net/uploads/images/screenshots/crawl/
01:53 <+due> TGW: Yes.
01:53 <+doy> check out lair1.png - lair8.png
01:53 <+due> TGW: It was before--but I fixed it.
01:53 < TGW> wasn't before?
01:53 <+due> No, it was. It just hadn't been used and had some bugs.
01:53 <+doy> basically, it replaces a bunch of walls with floor, and occasionally puts plants/fungi where the replacement happened
01:53 < TGW> oh
01:54 < Twinge> Napkin: Most decent board games originate from Germany these days, though most of the good ones tend to get translated and then published state-side as well.
01:54 < TGW> do randarts use that now, or just gastronok's hat?
01:54 < Vandal> doy those looks neat
01:54 <+due> TGW: Just unrands.
01:54 <+due> doy: That looks pretty nice.
01:54 <+due> As in, can we keep it?
01:54 < Vandal> wow
01:54 < Eronarn> doy: would be enhanced greatly if the "decayed" walls used a different colored floor tile
01:54 <+doy> !tell dpeg http://tozt.net/uploads/images/screenshots/crawl/ (lair[1-8].png)
01:54 < Henzell> doy: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
01:54 < Vandal> What font are you using in L5 Shoals?
01:54 < Vandal> that pic
01:54 <+doy> Eronarn: yeah, i was going to do that next, actually
01:54 < Vandal> I love that font
01:54 < purge> looks better, but lair still needs some feature about it thats unique IMO
01:55 <+doy> just have to figure out how recoloring works
01:55 <+due> doy: env.colour[x][y] = blah, basically.
01:55 < TGW> doy: that looks really cool
01:55 <+due> Can we dump pools for Lair?
01:55 <+due> I hate pools.
01:55 < Cryp71c> Anyone know what function is called (or where I can find the name of the function) when you hit the M button (Or any default-bound key) ?
01:55 <+doy> Vandal: fixed 7x14 (comes with x11)
01:56 < Vandal> x11 ?
01:56 <+due> Cryp71c: Hang on
01:56 <+due> Cryp71c: there isn't really.
01:56 < Cryp71c> ah, damn.
01:56 <+doy> Vandal: the base gui for linux
01:56 < Vandal> oh :)
01:56 <+due> Cryp71c: Hang on, though
01:57 < Napkin> Enne?
01:57 <+doy> Vandal: http://www.ank.com.ar/fonts/ has windows versions
01:57 <+due> Cryp71c: You basically want to skim main.cc until you find the command in question (commands.h lists them all), and then find the function linked... I'm pretty sure it's in spl-book.cc
01:57 <+doy> which i use when i'm on windows
01:57 < Vandal> awesome
01:57 <+Enne> Napkin: yeah?
01:57 < purge> due: i was just thinking.. wouldn't the egyptian desert branch be a good alternate to crypt like swamps is to shoals? it could still be filled with undead, and a unique feature could be "corrupted oasises" where herds of undead animals gather :)
01:57 < purge> along with the pyramids
01:57 <+due> purge: <3 and palm trees.
01:57 < Napkin> Do you know why resting is much slower in the "Trunk" version of tiles than it was for 0.5.2?
01:58 < Vandal> Is there a font that makes every tile square? XD
01:58 < Twinge> Napkin: I've had the same issue too, on the ascii version.
01:58 <+Enne> Napkin: I think the screen is trying to redraw every tick, even though it doesn't really need to.
01:58 < Napkin> oh, on the ascii too?
01:58 <+due> Resting is extremely slow in debug builds of trunk; it's all right in non-debug, though.
01:59 <+due> Cryp71c: Looks like learn_spell is the relevant function in spl-bbook.cc
01:59 < Napkin> hmm... I just upgraded him from 0.5.2 to trunk - same config, non-debug (due) built on cdo
01:59 <+due> Hm
01:59 < Napkin> or did i enable debug without knowing?
01:59 <+due> No, not likely
02:00 <+due> I meant specifically in ASCII, though.
02:00 < Napkin> ah
02:00 < Napkin> didn't that happen somewhere in the past already?
02:00 < Napkin> and was fixed then?
02:01 <+Enne> I know that's been an issue in the past, but it could have broken again.
02:01 < MarvinPA> i've found it to be really slow in the tiles builds i've downloaded, too
02:01 <+due> Wizmode prompts are also semi-broken in ASCII builds.
02:01 < MarvinPA> resting specifically
02:01 <+sorear> due: debug build resting is slow because the game runs a comprehensive level data sanity check once per turn
02:01 <+due> sorear: That's what I thought.
02:02 <+due> doy: that's *excellent*.
02:02 < CIA-81> pointless_ * rf01cabdb4194 /crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Restore player kill attribution for Fedhas' sunlight
02:02 < CIA-81> pointless_ * r6aafe49570c2 /crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Make Fedhas' sunlight always use MP and train invocations
02:02 < CIA-81> pointless_ * rf058457322c9 /crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Restrict sunlight's plant creating
02:02 < Napkin> everything has same speed (explore, obvious redraw, etc) - just resting not takes... 3hp/second?
02:02 < Napkin> *now takes
02:02 <+due> doy: that basically solves all the issues I had with lair.
02:02 <+doy> (:
02:05 < Napkin> well, I wrote jpeg about it - maybe she has an idea
02:06 < Napkin> .oO( please don't anyone tell me to change the mingw32 compiler suite again! )
02:06  * due hugs Napkin.
02:06 < Napkin> :D
02:07 < Napkin> uuh.. I gotta get up in 6 hours... G'night y'all! o/
02:07 <+due> Night Napking!
02:07 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
02:11 <+due> doy: Any chance of getting random clumps of trees as well as fungi and plants?
02:11 < purge> due: too bad there is no way to do a tide effect in the desert branch but with darkness instead to similar the curse in the mythology
02:11 < purge> simulate*
02:12 <+due> I really love the idea of patches of darkness,to be honest.
02:12 < purge> patches?
02:12 <+due> We could actually do it with non-glyph clouds and transparency.
02:12 <+due> Well, opacity.
02:12 < purge> due: can you put up a brainstorm page for a desert branch please so i can post dieas?
02:12 < purge> ideas?
02:12 <+due> Sure.
02:13 <+due> Is it desert or dessert?
02:13 < purge> one s
02:13  * due sticks a cherry on top.
02:14 <+due> Man, patches of darkness sound like an awesome idea now.
02:14 <+sorear> ADOM-style darkness?
02:14 <+sorear> Or NetHack darkness?
02:15 <+due> sorear: Basically, a cloud that obscures LOS, but generates no messages or descriptions, and doesn't use a glyph.
02:15 <+due> Long-lasting, but very fast moving.
02:18 < purge> due: i think you'll love my ideas!
02:18 < Eronarn> due: no glyph as in it appears as ., or no glyph as in it appears as 
02:18 < purge> came up with 2 unique monster ideas!
02:18 <+due> Eronarn: ., or }, or whatever's underneath it.
02:18 <+due> purge: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:desert
02:19 < Eronarn> due: that sounds horrible
02:19 <+due> :D
02:19 <+due> Why?
02:19 <+due> I think it would look awesome.
02:20 < Eronarn> it would be the single most annoying interface failure in the entire game
02:20 <+due> Hm.
02:20 < Ashenzari> bookofjude created page Desert at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:desert
02:20 <+due> So, as though you were standing in a pool of lava, and instead of having black smoke #s blocking LOS, it's you just can't see them.
02:21 < purge> due: just patches of sand? i figured the whole place would be sand?
02:21 <+due> purge: I was waffling, ignore what I wrote.
02:21 < purge> ok i am gonna re-organize it then you can edit it again if you don't like it ok?
02:21 <+due> Sure.
02:25 < MarvinPA> hmm... i think i managed to make a patch that fixes an issue i reported yesterday
02:25 < Vandal> GO MARVIN! :D
02:25 <+due> MarvinPA: Awesome! Which issue?
02:25 < MarvinPA> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=365
02:25 <+due> :)
02:26 < MarvinPA> i built crawl with it and it seems to have worked, it's pretty simple :P
02:26 < MarvinPA> should i attach it to the report? i *think* i've done everything right
02:27 <+due> MarvinPA: Sure, I can take a look at it.
02:27 < MarvinPA> today has been pretty much spent with "i'm bored, let's figure out how to use git and mess about with crawl" :D
02:28 < MarvinPA> ok, uploaded it
02:31 < Napkin> wow, very nice article from greensnark!
02:31 < Napkin> go read :D
02:31 < Vandal|LT> link?
02:31 < MarvinPA> ah yeah, i read that a bit earlier, it's very cool :)
02:31 < TGW> animal skeletons grazing on dead plants is the most depressing thing ever
02:31 < MarvinPA> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=194
02:32 < Napkin> And don't miss Due's next playtesting post!
02:32 < TGW> just add purgy and people will instantly kill themselves
02:32  * Napkin drops dead *
02:32 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r19a3b09d4507 /crawl-ref/source/spl-book.cc: Limit memorisation screen to at most 52 spells per page.
02:33 < Vandal> nice article indeed
02:33 < Vandal> greensnark has a way with words :)
02:33 < TGW> where?
02:33 < Vandal> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=194
02:43 < Cryp71c> due, just got back. learn_spell is the spell which builds the list of spells, or that is fired when you attempt to memorize a particular spell?
02:43 <+due> Cryp71c: I think jpeg just fixed that bug, though, :)
02:44 <+due> Cryp71c: learn_spell is fired when you hit M.
02:44 < Cryp71c> due: the 52-spell list thing?
02:44 <+due> Yeah.
02:44 < Cryp71c> cool, thx for letting me know
02:46 -!- |eith| [n=eith@86-40-254-250-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
02:48 <+due> Eronarn: Man, it looks *cool*.
02:49 <+due> Eronarn: Want me to termcast?
02:49 < Eronarn> nah, i'm doing other stuff
02:49 <+due> >:|
02:49 <+due> Anyone else want to see it?
02:49 <+due> purge?
02:49 < Vandal> I do :O
02:50 < Vandal> How do I see it?
02:50 <+due> Hang on
02:51 <+doy> due: what looks cool?
02:51 <+due> doy: Clouds of darkness.
02:51 <+doy> termcast!
02:51 <+sorear> ooh, we've got the crawl devs using termcast now?
02:51 <+doy> due: hmmm
02:51 <+due> ??termcast
02:52 < Henzell> termcast[1/3]: telnet noway.ratry.ru 37331 (or termcast.org 23) -- do not SSH. The software needed to stream to the termcast server can be found in a pot at the end of the rainbow.
02:52 <+due> Vandal: ---^
02:52  * sorear wonders if this is his fault
02:52 <+doy> ??termcast[2]
02:52 < Henzell> termcast[2/3]: script -f >( cat ~/.ratry_login - | nc -q5 noway.ratry.ru 31337 > /dev/null ) "$@" # if you have reasonably modern versions of script, netcat, and bash, this shell 1-liner will start a program and stream output to termcast.  The 300-line C program which does the same thing while consuming system resources forever is unforgivable bloatware.
02:52 <+due> doy: Yeah, I'm not sure.
02:52 <+doy> ??termcast[3]
02:52 < Henzell> termcast[3/3]: .ratry_login is one line, hello name password
02:52 <+due> Oh, I've been use ttrytail :)
02:53 <+sorear> !learn add termcast If you want a more polished tool, try cpan -i App::Termcast # This one is from doy, the hackish 1-liner is from sorear
02:53 < Henzell> termcast[4/4]: If you want a more polished tool, try cpan -i App::Termcast # This one is from doy, the hackish 1-liner is from sorear
02:53 <+doy> !learn edit termcast[1] s/can be found.*/can be installed by "cpan -i App::Termcast"
02:53 < Henzell> termcast[1/4]: telnet noway.ratry.ru 37331 (or termcast.org 23) -- do not SSH. The software needed to stream to the termcast server can be installed by "cpan -i App::Termcast"
02:53 <+due> Anyway
02:53 <+doy> due: i'm not sure how much i like that
02:53 <+due> I think it would be a nice effect for a portal vault.
02:53 < Vandal> ok I'm watching now :)
02:53 <+doy> it's really hard to tell what's going on
02:54 <+due> Yeah.
02:54 < Vandal> What are we watching for?
02:54 <+doy> Vandal: there are invisible los-blocking clouds around
02:54 < Vandal> oh
02:54 < Vandal> I see!
02:54 <+due> doy: Maybe they could use ' ' instead?
02:54 <+doy> due: that would help, i think, try it
02:54 <+due> Okay
02:54 <+due> That's slightly mor edifficult, gimme ten.
02:55 <+doy> you know what would be helpful
02:55 <+due> Up to 6 :)
02:55 <+doy> being able to change dungeon feature descriptions like we can with monsters now
02:55 < Eronarn> hey guys remember when we're trying to get shadow glyph changed because ' ' is annoying as hell
02:55 <+due> doy: You can.
02:55 <+doy> due: how?
02:55 < Ashenzari> The orc hits you with 4 orcish hand axes. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=376) by Kyrris
02:55 < Eronarn> let's not add the same thing in with a cloud, thanks
02:55 <+due> doy: I'm pretty sure you can with props decoorations.
02:55 <+doy> hmmm
02:55 < purge> due: ok i put in all my current ideas, if you could fill in how sandstorms will work that would be cool.
02:55 < purge> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:desert
02:56 < Eronarn> just make the cloud be colored like out-of-LOS objects or something
02:56 <+due> Eronarn: Hm.
02:56 < purge> i hope you like some of my monster ideas, i thought they were good
02:56 <+due> Eronarn: it would still place #s, which look weird.
02:56 < Eronarn> due: i mean, use underlying glyph, but with those colors
02:56 < Eronarn> rather than a ' '
02:57 <+due> Eronarn: that's what I'm currently using.
02:57 <+due> Eronarn: Tune in and see.
02:57 < Eronarn> oh, that's fine
02:57 < Eronarn> when you described it i thought you mean like, totally invisible
02:57 <+due> It is totally invisible :)
02:57 <+due> Iiinteresting.
02:58 < Eronarn> no, totally invisible would be if it preserved the colors of the underlying glyph :P
02:58 <+due> Ah, no, it doesn't.
02:58 <+due> I think the ' 's are better.
02:59 <+due> I don't know.
02:59 <+due> It's interesting.
02:59 <+doy> i'm not sure either
02:59 <+due> I mean, I live the idea of  moving patches of darkness, but I'm not sure it fits in visually.
02:59 < MarvinPA> the ' 's don't really make it look like a cloud
02:59 <+doy> yeah
03:00 < MarvinPA> although it's clearer what's going on, i suppose
03:00 <+due> Let's try this
03:00 <+due> ... Hey.
03:00 <+due> That's not bad at all.
03:01 <+doy> well, i mean, it looks like smoke
03:01 <+due> It does, but not completely like smoke
03:01 <+due> compare...
03:02 <+due> It's different, but only slight.
03:02 <+doy> yeah
03:03 <+due> I might play with spread.
03:06 <+due> We could even make it always stay together in a clump.
03:06 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@85-131-24-201.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
03:07 <+doy> that might be more interesting
03:08 < Eronarn> due: thought: the darkness follows the player like wandering mushrooms do, travels in clumps, fades away if you get too close to it, but comes back if you get out of LOS of it again
03:09 <+due> Eronarn: Interesting, but it wouldn't have any visual effect?
03:09 <+doy> due: it would if you move toward it
03:10 <+due> Metal walls!
03:11 <+due> doy: What do you think of that?
03:11 <+doy> due: what?
03:12 < Cryp71c> On issue #0000316 should the new description simply end after 'and recharges automatically' ?
03:12 <+due> doy: Current clumping mechanism.
03:12 < Eronarn> due: not any visal effect in any given turn, but over time, it would affect where the darkness is relative to you
03:12 <+doy> due: what do metal walls have to do with clumping?
03:13 <+due> doy: Nothing!
03:13 <+due> doy: I just noticed them, and thought they were cool.
03:13 <+doy> what are you asking me about then?
03:13 <+due> What I'm currently termcatsing with the clumping mechanism.
03:13 < MarvinPA> termcats!
03:13 <+doy> you aren't moving
03:13 <+doy> so i can't tell
03:13 <+due> Hm.
03:14 <+due> Is nothing happening?
03:14 <+doy> nope
03:14 <+due> Okay, back in.
03:14 <+due> How abou tnow?
03:14 <+doy> hmmm
03:15 <+doy> yeah, i like that pattern better, but i think it would be better as a moving cloud rather than a generator
03:15 <+due> Or a monster that generates and moves around.
03:15 <+doy> yeah
03:16 <+doy> oooh
03:16 <+doy> that would be cool
03:16 < Eronarn> i think rather than a monster
03:16 <+doy> monster fog generators
03:16 < Eronarn> the clouds should do it
03:16 < Eronarn> and some monsters should hide in the clouds
03:16 < Eronarn> this means that not every cloud will have monsters in it
03:16 <+doy> i mean, yeah, i like the moving clouds on its own
03:16 <+doy> but we totally should have monsters that spew various types of fog
03:16 < Eronarn> doy: one proposal is to have Vortexes do this
03:16 < Eronarn> and to add a smoke vortex, too
03:17 <+doy> Eronarn: yeah, that could work
03:17 < Eronarn> asphyxiation vortexes would be amazing :)
03:17 <+doy> hehe
03:18 < CIA-81> pointless_ * r26707f530e67 /crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc godabil.cc godabil.h): Make Fedhas' shoot through plants more lenient
03:18 < Eronarn> (naturally, there could be sand vortexes in a desert)
03:18 < TGW> what does that mean?
03:19 < MarvinPA> hm, for bugs that are "awaiting confirmation of resolution from me", should i close them if i check and they're fixed?
03:19 <+due> MarvinPA: yes
03:19 < MarvinPA> cool, will do
03:21 < MarvinPA> there was something added to fix my permanent swine form issue that i think kilobyte said he wanted to be rolled back as soon as my save was fixed
03:21 < MarvinPA> so i'll leave that one open, i guess
03:22 < MarvinPA> (unless it's already been rolled back)
03:24 <+due> Oh
03:24 <+due> I'll remove that
03:24 <+due> Did that get taken out?
03:24 < MarvinPA> not that i can see from looking at the commits
03:25 <+due> doy: I like that effect of just a clump of darkness in one corner.
03:26 <+due> You can lose monsters in it! that is awesome.
03:28 <+due> I really like this.
03:28 <+due> Let's try it as a monnster.
03:31 <+due> I want a moonster.
03:33 < Xiberia> monsteer
03:37 <+due> doy: Thoguhts?
03:39 <+due> They hang around for a wwhile. :D
03:40 <+due> Who's still watching?
03:40 <+doy> me, sort of
03:40 <+doy> looks interesting
03:40 <+due> Eronarn?
03:41 <+doy> i kinda want to add moss-covered walls to lair rather than just arbitrarily recoloring for no apparent reason
03:41 <+due> Do it!
03:41 < purge> due: i posted ideas for a bunch of monsters on the wiki page
03:41 <+doy> but not sure if that's worth adding an fprop or new wall type for
03:41 <+due> purge: Awesome. Did you see the clumps?
03:41 < purge> link?
03:41 <+due> ??termcast
03:41 < Henzell> termcast[1/4]: telnet noway.ratry.ru 37331 (or termcast.org 23) -- do not SSH. The software needed to stream to the termcast server can be installed by "cpan -i App::Termcast"
03:41 < purge> watching bookofjude
03:41 <+due> doy: It leaves behind little clumps of darkness if it hangs around for a while :)
03:42 < Eronarn> doy: plant variety!!
03:42 <+doy> Eronarn: like what?
03:42 < purge> due: neat
03:42 <+due> doy: Do not get him started.
03:42 < purge> due: i think maybe that should be a "sometimes" layout for the desert branch like open water levels are in the dungeon
03:43 <+due> I'm actually inclined to commit this cloud type, even if it gets used for nothing or gets removed later.
03:43 <+doy> well... *i*'m not going to add any new monsters
03:43 < purge> where that darkness is everywhere
03:43 < Eronarn> doy: There are at least 30 plants on the wiki, ranging from terrible idea to awesome one to purely cosmetic.
03:43 <+doy> but i could do more variety in the ones we already have
03:43 < purge> or maybe it could be a thing on a timer like tides
03:43 < Eronarn> due: one question i have: how does the darkness cloud interact with, say, meph cloud
03:44 <+due> Eronarn: It gets overwritten. Are you watching?
03:44 <+due> I love the long-lasting banks of darkness.
03:44 < TGW> sunlight should dispel it
03:45 <+due> Ooh, true.
03:45 < Eronarn> due: no, i'm not watching. It getting overwritten feels weird...
03:46 <+due> Eronarn: Well, you can shoot it into the darkness, but the spread of darkness will encompass the meph cloud before it has eany major effect.
03:46 < purge> meph cloud should still work in the darkness?
03:46 < TGW> meph counteracts the darkness?
03:46 < TGW> which is kind of weird
03:46 < Eronarn> yes
03:46 < TGW> unless meph gives off light
03:46 <+due> It does both, kinda.
03:47 < Eronarn> it seems like it should be something that can coexist with clouds
03:47 < TGW> I would appreciate the demo more if you didn't have waffle walls
03:47 < TGW> everything is confusing with waffle walls
03:47 <+due> Waffle walls?
03:47 <+due> Hang on, will find an open level.
03:47 < TGW> :D
03:47 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
03:49 <+due> TGW: Better?
03:49 < TGW> indeed
03:49 < purge> due: one thing i dislike is that you cannot tell wall from darkness out of LOS
03:49 <+due> purge: This is the case with any cloud.
03:50 <+due> purge: cf.
03:50 < TGW> is this just reflavored cloud?
03:50 < purge> yeah i see but still don;t like it :)
03:50 < TGW> reflavoured*
03:52 <+due> TGW: No
03:52 <+due> TGW: It's a cloud, yes, but it's not reflavoured.
03:52 <+due> etc
03:54 < purge> hmmm twinge still editing? :)
03:54 < Vandal> So
03:54 < Vandal> Out of love, I have devoted my entire evening to writing thisw
03:54 <+due> Awesome!
03:54 < Vandal> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:skills:stabbing
03:54 < Vandal> I'm not done yet either
03:54 < Vandal> but this is enough to get some gears turning
03:55 < purge> vandal: could you add a summary at the top?
03:55 < Vandal> Yeah.. I sort of did with the starting topic
03:55 < Vandal> It didn't auto-generate a template for some reason
03:56 < TGW> you still don't butcher in combat
03:56 < Vandal> Unless you're trying to prevent corpses from being used
03:56 < Vandal> oh, I guess you're mistaken!
03:57 <+due> We will not argue right now.
03:58 <+doy> argue on the wiki!
03:59 <+due> yeah
03:59 <+due> doy: Should I commit this cloud type, anyway?
03:59 < Vandal> Ok.. done for tonight
03:59 <+doy> due: sure
03:59 < Vandal> Just had an afterthought about how this ties in with Blade Consolidation
04:00 <+due> I might commit sand storms while I'm at it.
04:02 <+due> doy: What do you think about placing random clumps of 4+ trees (circles, say) as well as converting walls?
04:03 <+doy> due: not sure how i feel about trees
04:03 < TGW> vandal: @paralysis: while it is immensely powerful, it also comes with an MR check and is no longer available in a renewable fashion
04:03 <+doy> clumps of plants could work though
04:03 < Vandal> oh good
04:03 <+doy> trees don't really seem like they'd fit
04:03 <+due> Hm, clumps of plants, then.
04:04 < TGW> the combination of these factors means it's a huge drain of resources to paralyse anything that you need >1 stab for
04:04 <+due> TGW: Paralysis needles, though.
04:05 < Vandal> Ok TGW :) I figured they were dealing with that
04:05 < TGW> due: I haven't tried the nerf
04:05 <+doy> due: alright, i'll see about adding that after i go get some dinner
04:05 <+due> With enough enchantment and skill, it's still a nerf
04:05 < TGW> vandal: I mean, paralysis hasn't been renewable for a LONG time
04:05 < Vandal> and yes it was the Needles that were cited as an extreme example
04:05 < Vandal> Does paralysis end the moment you Stab?
04:05 < TGW> no
04:05 <+due> Vandal: No.
04:05 < Vandal> Then my concern remains
04:05 < Vandal> You get more free stabs
04:05 < Vandal> Or free Poison Arrows
04:05 < Vandal> etc..
04:06 < TGW> @needles: needs a sizeable investment in throwing skill and a good blowgun to get at a good chance
04:06 <+doy> how many turns do paralysis needles last?
04:06 <+due> TGW: Exactly.
04:06 < Vandal> I mean basically
04:06 < purge> due: get a chance to look at the wiki page yet? :)
04:06 < Vandal> If you succeed in Paralyzing a monster
04:06 <+due> doy: The duration is 5 + blowgun roll.
04:06 < Vandal> You may as well ahve just killed it
04:06 < TGW> it's an HD instead of MR check
04:06 <+doy> due: really?
04:06 <+due> purge: No :|! Hang on, I shall go reread.
04:06 <+doy> that seems really high to me
04:06 < Vandal> It is a death sentence
04:06 <+due> doy: It's not particularly.
04:06 < TGW> off the top of your head, any idea how long wand of para is?
04:06 <+due> doy: Oh, sorry, blowgun roll is random2(throwing skill + blowgun ench)
04:07 < TGW> due: 2+random2(throwing+blowgun) / HD
04:07 < TGW> I thought
04:07 < TGW> oh, duration
04:08 <+due> ??blowgun[3]
04:08 < Henzell> blowgun[3/3]: Durations are base, plus 1d(Throwing skill + Blowgun to-hit) - 1. Base durations are: paralysis, sleep, confusion, slow, 5; sickness, 40; frenzy has no specified duration.
04:08 <+due> ??blowgun[2]
04:08 < Henzell> blowgun[2/3]: You have a flat 2% chance of affecting monsters with HD14 or less. In all other cases, or if this 2% chance fails, you will only affect a monster if 2+ 1d(3 + Throwing Skill + Blowgun To-Hit) is greater than the monster's HD.
04:08 <+doy> seems like base for paralysis should be 1 or 2
04:08 < TGW> so... 3+random2(throwing+blowgun) > HD
04:08 <+doy> since monsters can't wake up from it
04:09 <+due> doy: Hm, might be a good idea.
04:09 < TGW> doy: it's at range, and with a pretty hefty failure rate
04:09 < Vandal> !tell dpeg You may want to get a drink.. http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:skills:stabbing
04:09 < Henzell> Vandal: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
04:09 < TGW> 1-2 seems kind of drastic
04:09 <+due> TGW: Hefty failure rate?
04:09 <+due> Needles are exceedingly accurate
04:10 <+doy> TGW: but being able to stand next to a monster and then get a minimum of 5 guaranteed stabs is pretty ridiculous
04:10 < Vandal> If something has a hefty failure rate no one will use it
04:10 < Vandal> they'll just use something more likely to work on the first or second try with as close power as is availalbe
04:10 <+due> doy: Oh, that's not 5 turns.
04:10 < TGW> oh, is that in aut?
04:10 <+due> doy: That's the strength of the monster enchaantment.
04:10 <+doy> aha
04:10 <+due> I have no idea.
04:10 < TGW> how long is that then
04:10 <+doy> that makes more sense
04:10 <+due> TGW: It depends.
04:11 < TGW> I should have no idea what I'm talking about more often, this is fun
04:11 <+doy> approximately 10% of that
04:11 <+doy> i guess?
04:11 <+due> Yeah, MR also comes into it.
04:11 <+due> Maybe not
04:12 <+due> No, it doesn't come into it.
04:14 < Cryp71c> How can I get the version of my local repo?
04:15 <+doy> git rev-parse HEAD
04:16 < Cryp71c> and do you refer to it - typically - by the first 6 or last 6?
04:16 < Cryp71c> chars
04:16 <+doy> first 7
04:16 <+sorear> first N
04:16 <+sorear> any unique abbreviation will work
04:17 <+doy> any unique prefix, that is
04:17 <+doy> but 7 is almost always sufficient
04:17 <+sorear> actually we might need to go up to 8 soon
04:18 <+sorear> 7 is only 2^28 possibilities, and we have close to 2^14 revisions
04:18 <+doy> i did notice one collision a couple weeks ago
04:18 <+sorear> does it count as a unique prefix if the only collisions are with non-commit objects?
04:18 < Cryp71c> Gotcha, well I commented on issue #0000121 after testing it locally, its fixed in trunk.
04:19 <+doy> sorear: nope
04:19 <+doy> the collision i noticed was with a tree object
04:19 <+sorear> :/  I guess we have even less time then
04:19 <+doy> i mean, it would be unambiguous to us
04:19 <+doy> but various git commands would get confused
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04:29 <+sorear> git rev-parse knows that it's looking for a revision, it should be able to ignore non-commit non-tags
04:30 <+due> I've been using ten or so.
04:30 <+due> sorear: What did ou think of darkness?
04:31 <+sorear> due: I don't like the current implementation, also, darkness is explicitly listed in the pas-de-faq as a feature that has been deliberately left out
04:31 <+due> Yeah.
04:32 <+due> It's probably too interface-killy.
04:32 <+due> Clouds don't really work well in that regard.
04:32 < purge> due: it could still be used on my pharaoh mummy monster as a spell!
04:33 <+due> Hm.
04:33  * purge hint hint
04:33  * purge looks toward wiki page and back
04:34 <+due> Yes, looking ;)
04:34 < purge> twinge added some bullets too
04:35 <+due> We've already got phoenixes on the holy monsters list.
04:36 <+due> Sound sgood otherwise!
04:36 < purge> yay thanks
04:37 <+due> I want ant-people and scorpion people now. <3
04:38 < purge> i think the ant-lion idea could be neat but possibly annoying so maybe not too much hidden quicksand
04:38 < purge> but no more annoying than a siren i suppose
04:39 < TGW> due: as a player race!
04:39 < Vandal> Ant people could get that DS mutation sense surroundings :)
04:39 < TGW> as long as the abbreviation is wi/li/lo/la/bo
04:40 <+due> Vandal: DD already have that.
04:40 < Vandal> I thought the DS mut was automatic
04:40 < TGW> so is the DD mut
04:40 <+due> It's the same mutation.
04:40 < Vandal> Oh?
04:40 < Vandal> Do you have to activate the DD one?
04:40 < TGW> no
04:40 < TGW> it's the same mutation
04:40 < Vandal> I always thought it was an ability.. but I only played 1 DD
04:40 <+due> It's the same mutation!
04:41 < Vandal> I hear you!
04:41 <+due> Exactly the same!
04:41 <+due> The same code, even!
04:41 < Vandal> I'm just tired and thinking out loud!
04:41 <+due> Okay!
04:41 < TGW> that's what I do when I'm tired too
04:41 < Vandal> :)
04:41 < Vandal> I cleaned a cat box.
04:42 < purge> due: changed phoenix to corrupted phoenix that leaves cloud of miasma as it jumps around :)
04:42 < Vandal> maybe not the best thing to do when you're tired.. prone to accidents..
04:42 < TGW> vandal: isn't that what the cat box is for?
04:42 < Vandal> what?
04:42 < Vandal> oh
04:42 < Vandal> haha
04:42 < Vandal> yeah I am losing it.. time for shower and bed
04:42 < Vandal> g'night!
04:45 < purge> thought of an idea for a abyss creature --  phantasmal horror, which is so terrible to gaze upon it causes a 'fear' status effect(MR check) which prevents you from moving closer(opposite of mermaid)
04:46 < purge> could block you from going certain ways when you running :)
04:48 <+due> Yeah.
04:49 <+due> I suggested a reverse mesmerisatoin effect for fear.
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04:51 < Ashenzari> Ammunition brand applied twice (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=377) by Riidi
04:52 < Eronarn> That would be a cool new Horror in line with the Horror subproposal of my Demon proposal.
04:52 < purge> eronarn: feel free to use it in your subproposal
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04:54 < Eronarn> purge: maybe.
04:54 < Eronarn> I think the interface would look a bit icky though
04:54 < Eronarn> Mesmerize works because it's a round shape - fear would be a line, or a cone
04:54 < Eronarn> Might need to shade the flee-from-this-area in another color
04:56 <+sorear> surely fear should be a circle
04:56 <+sorear> like LOS
04:59 < TGW> it doesn't have to be "run away" fear
04:59 < TGW> it can be "don't go closer" fear... like, just draw a circle from caster to you
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05:21 < Twinge> Hmm.  Shouldn't speed potions be colored cyan, and magic potions be colored yellow?  Speed is a temporary enchanting/boost effect, like agility/might/berserk/etc. and Magic is a direct MP gain, like heal wounds is a direct HP gain.  Restore abilities would make the most sense as yellow also.
05:24 < Cryp71c> Moooo
05:30 < Cryp71c> Twinge: speaking of pots, are there any conditions under which the agility/might/int pots are permanent instead of temporary?
05:30 < Cryp71c> (on trunk)
05:32 < Twinge> I don't think so.  Can't say I've heard much about them though.
05:37 < Eronarn> there are gain str/int/dex pots
05:37 < Eronarn> or atl east used to be
05:37 < Eronarn> which are 'permanent' (until you de-mutate them)
05:37 <+greensnark> due!
05:37 <+greensnark> Ooh, doy put in new Lair builder
05:37 <+greensnark> Butbut my OgMo just finished Lair :/
05:37 <+greensnark> People keep forcing me to restart :P
05:38 <+due> Hm?
05:38 <+greensnark> Obviously I must start a new game to see new Lair!
05:38 <+due> Hm
05:38 <+due> Want me to update CDO?
05:38 <+greensnark> What's all this about darkness?
05:38 <+due> New cloud type.
05:38 <+due> Want to see?
05:38 <+greensnark> Is it in a branch?
05:38 <+due> No, I was termcasting.
05:38 <+greensnark> Ah
05:39 <+greensnark> You have it around? :)
05:39 <+due> Hang on
05:39  * greensnark wants to look into the heart of darkness.
05:39 <+due> Termcasting now
05:39 <+due> Shouldn't be long with ccache.
05:39 <+greensnark> Eric Lustbader wrote a semi-decent series called the Sunset Warrior series
05:40 <+due> doy wasn't sure, sorear didn't like it too much.
05:40 <+due> I'm still kind of unsure.
05:40 <+greensnark> In which the protagonist has some kind of alter ego - a deertaur called the Hart of Darkness
05:40 <+due> I might change it to "gloom" instead of darkness.
05:40 <+greensnark> Doom in the gloom
05:40 <+due> :>
05:41 < Cryp71c> ??git
05:41 < Henzell> git[1/1]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref
05:41 <+greensnark> due: Is this the netbook?
05:41 <+greensnark> I can't wait for clang to be able to compile Crawl
05:41 <+greensnark> It claims to compile and link a whole bunch faster than gcc
05:41 < Eronarn> greensnark: new vault name with darkness clouds: doom in the gloom room
05:42 <+due> greensnark: Yeah, with ccache, though.
05:42 <+greensnark> persson? :P
05:42 <+due> Una Persson.
05:43 <+greensnark> Interesting
05:43 <+greensnark> I'm not sure about the cloud thingies, makes it look like miasma cloud
05:43 <+due> Or black smoke.
05:43 <+greensnark> What does it look like without a cloud?
05:44 <+greensnark> I mean just LOS blocking without a cloud
05:44 <+due> One second
05:44 <+greensnark> Or can you make it alter the colour of the feature instead of obscuring it with a #?
05:44 <+due> Yeah, doing so.
05:45 <+due> Doing it blue just for show.
05:45 <+due> Blue doesn't really work, i guess.
05:45 <+greensnark> Hmm, yes
05:45 <+greensnark> But I'm not sure if there's any other colour either
05:46 <+due> Though with the blue...
05:46 <+due> That's not bad at all.
05:46 <+greensnark> Does one square of cloud block, or do you need two?
05:46 <+due> One square blocks
05:46 <+greensnark> Change to two?
05:47 <+due> Uno momento.
05:48 <+due> I ... actually kinda like that.
05:48 <+greensnark> It could be cool in some kind of crypt-like vault
05:49 <+greensnark> Undead should regen faster in the cloud :P
05:49 <+greensnark> Or maybe evil things :P
05:49 <+due> Hm, true.
05:49 <+due> Should I bother committing it?
05:49 <+greensnark> Why not
05:50 <+greensnark> It's not used anywhere yet, is it?
05:50 <+due> No, shadows trail it, but that's just for testing purposes.
05:50 <+due> Hm, magneta better?
05:51 <+due> I like magenta!
05:51 <+greensnark> Yep, it looks better than blue
05:52 <+greensnark> How are you generating the clouds there?
05:52 <+due> The shadow.
05:52 <+greensnark> Where's the shadow? :P
05:52 <+greensnark> Ohh
05:52 <+due> White blob. :)
05:52 <+greensnark> Shadow Fiends could use this!
05:52 <+due> It has odd dissipation rules.
05:53 <+due> It'll dissipate if there aren't three clouds nearby.
05:53 <+due> So it tends to clump together.
05:53 < Eronarn> greensnark: it would be cool to have some demon using it, not sure about shadow fiends though... they're pretty much fine as is i think
05:53 <+greensnark> due: It's pretty
05:53 <+due> I actually like it now.
05:53 <+due> But I'm going to rename it to gloom.
05:53 <+greensnark> Gloooooooom
05:54 <+due> Feh.
05:54 <+greensnark> Eronarn: Yeah, Shadow Fiends also have ranged attacks and don't want to block LOS
05:54 < Cryp71c> :( Compiling crawl on my Intel Atom processor netbook is slow =\
05:54 <+due> I think it would work well for an innocuous monster.
05:54 <+greensnark> But! It'd be cool!
05:54 <+due> Cryp71c: What netbook?
05:54 < ogaz> greensnark: soul eater?
05:54 < Cryp71c> due: HP Mini1000
05:54 <+greensnark> @??soul eater
05:54 < Gretell> soul eater (2) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 18/10 | Damage: 25(drain) | Flags: demonic, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(146), cold, poison | XP: 857.
05:54 < Cryp71c> First generation
05:54 <+greensnark> Hey there's a thought
05:54 <+due> Cryp71c: Get ccache installed.
05:54 <+greensnark> due: Soul eater? :)
05:54 < Cryp71c> ccache eh?
05:54 <+due> greensnark: Interesting idea!
05:55 <+greensnark> ^^ ogaz suggested it :)
05:55 <+due> Should probably trail smaller clouds, though. It tends to fill up the map pretty qucikly.
05:55 <+greensnark> It's also the right colour :)
05:55 <+due> ogaz: Nice idea!
05:55 < Mu_> there are shadow demons too
05:55 <+greensnark> @??shadow demon
05:55 < Gretell> shadow demon (3) | Speed: 11 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 7/12 | Damage: 21 | Flags: demonic, see invisible | Res: magic(56), cold++, poison | XP: 197.
05:55 <+greensnark> You should probably pick just one monster for the effect
05:55 <+due> Yeah.
05:56 < ogaz> shadow demons are invisible anyway
05:56 < Eronarn> greensnark: i'm doing a .7-targeted writeup of demons, not everything i suggest will get in
05:56 < Eronarn> but i'll definitely propose that one of them get it
05:56 < Eronarn> possibly a new one, though
05:56 <+greensnark> We need to toss the boring demons
05:56 <+greensnark> Like most of them :P
05:56 < purge> a +9 rod of destruction :O
05:56 < ogaz> get rid of all the 2s
05:56 < ogaz> (except hellions now)
05:56 <+greensnark> I was just going to defend hellions :P
05:56 <+greensnark> @??beast
05:56 < Gretell> beast (2) | Speed: 10-17 | HD: 4 | Health: 42-96 | AC/EV: 4/8 | Damage: 28, 20 | Flags: demonic | Res: magic(28) | XP: 283.
05:56 <+greensnark> Nooo!
05:57 < Cryp71c> due: its only on my first build of a clean clone. Once most of the object code is generated and I Just have to recompile 1-2 files I modify, its obviously much quicker.
05:57 <+greensnark> I like beasts as the sleep 4 that surprise the crap out of players :P
05:57 <+greensnark> *sleeper
05:57 < ogaz> get rid of all the 2s that were 2s in 0.5
05:57 <+due> Cryp71c: Even with depends, you want ccache.
05:57 < Mu_> don't you take sun demons away from me :(
05:57 <+due> Also, try not to hit enum.h. It'll cause a recompile of everything.
05:58 < Eronarn> Mu_: new sun demon proposal: TSO-style halo, but in green, with a passive OTR effect. Casts Ignite Poison.
05:59 < Eronarn> demons<3
06:00 <+due> Feh for full rebuilds.
06:00 <+due> I suppose I also need to try this in tiles.
06:00 < Eronarn> purge: inform us as to how the rod works out!
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06:03 <+due> Does calling it gloom help to bypass the "we won't do darkness" thing? :)
06:04 <+greensnark> "We don't do darkness" refers to light sources and stuff, right?
06:04 <+greensnark> Whereas LOS blocking is a time-honoured Crawl custom :P
06:04 <+due> :D
06:04 <+due> I need to make sunlight instantly decay clouds tthough.
06:04 <+due> And if I'm doing that, I may as well make it damage sshadows and vampires.
06:05 <+greensnark> That would be neat
06:05 <+greensnark> Is sunlight a lingering effet yet?
06:05 < Eronarn> due: as I see it - it's not so much "darkness" as "malevolent shadows purposefully interposing themselves"
06:05 <+greensnark> Or is it one-shot instant
06:05 < Eronarn> greensnark: still one-shot
06:05 <+due> One-shot instant.
06:05 < Eronarn> which i dislike a lot
06:06 < Eronarn> i'd rather it be bigger but subtler
06:06 <+greensnark> Sunlight might be better with a marker that keeps working its effects over a few turns
06:06 <+greensnark> Gradually dry water
06:06 < Eronarn> yes
06:06 <+greensnark> Keep dispeling clouds for X time
06:06 <+due> Sounds good.
06:06 < Eronarn> and plants could be restored, because it wouldn't be an immediate blocking chance like currently
06:07 < Eronarn> but a gradual growth, over a span of a wider area and several turns
06:07 <+greensnark> Blocking chance?
06:07 < Eronarn> greensnark: the chance to get a plant when using sunlight on any empty square
06:07 <+greensnark> Oh
06:08 < Eronarn> - it'd also make fedhas a lot more tactically interesting if it were a static area, rather than something you kept spamming any time it wore off
06:08 < Eronarn> e.g., more incentive to hide in plants and keep the enemies in the lit area, rather than retreat into corridors
06:08 <+greensnark> pointless_ is working on Fedhas, right?
06:08 < Eronarn> yes
06:08 < Eronarn> I hate Fedhas so much :(
06:09 <+greensnark> Is Fedhas more or less complete?
06:09 <+greensnark> Why?
06:09 <+due> ... why?
06:09 <+due> I like Fedhas.
06:11 <+due> who is Evan Williams?
06:11 <+greensnark> What? :P
06:11 < Ashenzari> Books on the ground, in a big stack, have the wrong glyph (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=378) by Kyrris
06:11 <+due> c-r-d.
06:11 < Eronarn> greensnark: because it feels way too pigeonholed for a god of nature
06:12 < Eronarn> it bothers me to no end that a god with an ability called *evolution* has less variety than a god of undeath :P
06:12 <+due> That looks slightly better.
06:12 <+greensnark> Where are the detailed god descriptions in the source? :P
06:13 <+due> dat/ddescript/gods.txt no?
06:13 <+due> Should make it immune to polymorph.
06:13 <+greensnark> That has a brief one-liner about Fedhas
06:13 <+greensnark> Sunlight, fungal bloom, plant ring, spores, rain, evolution?
06:13 <+greensnark> Intriguing
06:14 < Cryp71c> Any experts on the beam code here and active?
06:14 <+due> Cryp71c: ----^ El Snarko.
06:14 <+greensnark> I'm not an expert :P
06:14 <+greensnark> What's the question, though
06:15 <+due> You know more about it than I.
06:15 < Cryp71c> greensnark: Fire Storm is setup / fired in spells1.cc at 'setup_fire_storm' and there is no range declaration there for the beam. Furthermore, if I set a range within that setup function, it is ignored when the beam is fired.
06:16 <+due> Cryp71c: Check ZAP_<xyz>?
06:16 < Eronarn> greensnark: sunlight = corona in a 3w3h cross shape; decomposition = sacrifice mechanic (also makes toadstools), plant ring = make a wall of "a plant"; spores = make giant spores from corpses, rain = instant effect of a bunch of shallow water or shallow=>deep, evolution = upgrade things to wandering mushrooms or oklobs
06:16 <+due> And spl-data.h?
06:16 <+greensnark> Cryp71c: Fire storm is placed freely, no range per se
06:16 <+greensnark> The beam is used only for the explosion
06:16 <+greensnark> It's smite-targeted
06:16 < Cryp71c> greensnark: I see. Well there is a maximum range at which the center may be placed.
06:16 < Cryp71c> Which is wrong atm.
06:17 <+greensnark> Oh that way
06:17 <+due> rain also creates rainc louds.
06:17 < Eronarn> oh, that's new
06:17 <+due> No?
06:17 <+due> When did you last play Fedhas?
06:18 <+due> Rain clouds got added before I joined the dev team, and Charles added them to the ability shortly after.
06:18 < Eronarn> i've played fedhas since then and didn't spot any
06:18 < Eronarn> i know rain clouds are in but i haven't ever seen any in game
06:18 < Eronarn> !lg eronarn god=fedhas
06:18 < Henzell> 6. Eronarn the Alchemist (L16 SEEE), worshipper of Fedhas, blasted by Roxanne (iron shot) on Swamp:5 on 2009-12-28, with 100874 points after 51840 turns and 5:49:45.
06:18 <+due> Ah, they only show up at high invocations, maybe?
06:18 < Eronarn> !lg eronarn god=fedhas -2
06:18 < Henzell> 5. Eronarn the Archer (L12 HEAM), worshipper of Fedhas, killed by triggering a bolt trap on Lair:6 on 2009-12-23, with 25722 points after 27456 turns and 2:45:08.
06:19 <+due> greensnark: I've come up with a possibly new layout builder for Vaults! At least in ideas (after confirming sme ddetails with Enne).
06:19 <+greensnark> due: Doooo it!
06:20 < Eronarn> due: i think that Fedhas Rain would be a lot better if it made less water and more rain clouds, really. it's pretty overpowered, and i think a gradual effect is more interesting
06:20 <+due> greensnark: It basically means moving the generator to Lua, making every room created a subvault room instead, and preventing monster, item, and stair generation outside of the rooms.
06:21 <+greensnark> Do we have enough subvaults?
06:21 <+due> No, hehe.
06:21 <+due> I'm going to write subvaults generators.
06:22 <+sorear> There should be a non-exclusive tag for this
06:22 <+due> You can access the requested size of the subvault
06:22 <+sorear> quite a few dungeon vaults would do
06:22 <+due> So, we'll have rooms with monsters guarding a smaller sub-room with treasure inside...
06:22 <+greensnark> Ah
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06:22 <+greensnark> Yeah, you could also tag any suitable vaults with vault_room or stuff
06:23 <+greensnark> And allow_dup
06:23 <+due> Exactly!
06:23 <+greensnark> But you should definitely write a procedural subvault gen
06:23 < Cryp71c> due: earlier you said I might check ZAP_<xyz> for fire_storm range data
06:23 <+due> I am.
06:23 < Cryp71c> What did you mean by that?
06:23 <+greensnark> Cool!
06:24 <+due> Cryp71c: zap_data[] in beam.cc
06:25 <+due> I think that also defines ranges?
06:25 <+due> Might not.
06:25 <+due> spl-data.h's spell structures definitely define ranges.
06:25 <+due> Anything that's stipulated as LOS in that is usually smite-targetted.
06:25 < Cryp71c> due: yep, it seems to define the ranges for which auto-target greys out
06:25 < Cryp71c> (white / grey squares)
06:25 < Cryp71c> but I can still ! fire_storm to fire beyond that range
06:25 < Cryp71c> hopefully zap_data is what I'm looking for
06:26 <+due> Hm
06:26 <+due> Cryp71c: It's smite targetted.
06:26 <+due> Cryp71c: That means you can target *anywhere* in your LOS.
06:27 <+due> Cryp71c: Even if you target in a position that leaves the resulting storm half outside of your LOS.
06:27 <+due> (This is intended, I believe?)
06:27 <+sorear> yes
06:27 < Cryp71c> due: the bug I've discovered doesn't have to do with range
06:27 <+sorear> it might need a nerf, but beware cascade effects
06:28 < Cryp71c> due: doesn't have to do with LOS* it has to do with range
06:28 < Cryp71c> sorry
06:28 < Cryp71c> z?! indicates the range should be 6 (I think, perhaps 7)
06:28 <+sorear> fire storm is noisy in SS only because people used to use it to safely kill monsters while not entering stealth-check range of their neighbors
06:28 < Cryp71c> But you can cast it pretty far away (8) I think
06:28 <+due> ah
06:28 <+sorear> nerf fire storm and you ought to nerf explosion noise
06:29 <+due> Let's not nerf firestorm, poor Cerebov.
06:29 <+sorear> which would buff MC
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06:30 < Cryp71c> due: hrm...which ZAP_ does fire storm use, do all spells have to use something from zap_data?
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06:31 <+sorear> fire storm doesn't use any ZAP_
06:31 < Cryp71c> ...
06:31 < Cryp71c> well wth..
06:31 <+due> It doesn't use ZAP.
06:32 < Cryp71c> sorear: what's the shortest smite-targetted spell you can think of?
06:32 <+due> Which is why I said not to worry about it when I thought about it some more.
06:32 <+due> Cryp71c: ...
06:32 < Cryp71c> due: ah, didn't see that.
06:32 <+due> Cryp71c: Smite targetted-spells don'thave a range limit.
06:32 <+due> If it's smite-targetted, you can aim it *anywhere* that you can see.
06:32 < Cryp71c> due: then why does firestorm have a 6-block range in Z?! ?
06:33 <+due> ?range
06:33 <+due> ??range
06:33 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled range in my learndb.
06:33 <+due> ??blocks
06:33 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled blocks in my learndb.
06:33 <+due> Feh.
06:33 <+due> Cryp71c: Bad value somewhere. It should be N/A.
06:34 < Cryp71c> due: that value is in spl-data.h
06:34 < Cryp71c> range is 6, 6
06:34 <+due> Oh, wtf
06:34 <+due> Should be LOS_RADIUS, no?
06:34 <+due> sorear?
06:35 < Mu_> stop it hitting beyond los?
06:37 < Eronarn> hm, doesn't banishment spell use smite but is below LOS range?
06:37 < Eronarn> or am i misremebering
06:37 < Cryp71c> Mu_: no the code operates properly as it is, but the z?! screen indicates it has a specific range instead of N/A
06:37 < Cryp71c> (fire storm)
06:37 <+due> Banishment is LOS_RADIUS, LOS_RADIUS
06:38 <+sorear> due: should be -1, -1
06:38 <+sorear> Eronarn: banishment is a beam, it needs clear line of fire
06:38 <+due> I thought -1, -1 was for spells that didn't have an applicable range?
06:38 <+sorear> due: banishment is beam, it has an applicable range (
06:38 <+due> Airstrike, f'r instance, is LOS_RADIUS.
06:38 <+sorear> )
06:38 <+due> Ah.
06:39 < Cryp71c> sorear: so what's the concensus, fire storm should have LOS_RADIUS or -1 as its range?
06:39 <+due> Well, what do we want?
06:39 < Cryp71c> its operating normally with regard to range, except for the targetting screen greys out > 6 and you can ! the cast to a 7 range
06:40 <+sorear> Cryp71c: should be -1
06:40 < Twinge> Hmm, Looks like I get to face dpeg walled-liches Crypt-5 vault one last time... ;O
06:41 < Cryp71c> lol....I think I havn't played a game since I started contributing :P
06:41 <+due> Twinge: It's back in now.
06:42 < Twinge> Oh?  walls perma-diggable or something?
06:43 <+due> No, the walled liches vault went out and then came back in again. It was done in a stroboscopic manner, so as you don't actually not see it.
06:43 < Cryp71c> sorear: it can't have a -1 range. "targeted/directed spell 'Fire Storm' has invalid range"
06:43 <+due> Gone, then back... gone, then back!
06:43 < Twinge> It's the only Crypt:5 Vault I've seen yet ;/
06:44 < AceTetra> oh, so you haven't seen the one with the three liches not in cages? it's great when you're feeling jumpy
06:45 <+sorear> Cryp71c: then, you need to fix the SPFLAG_GRID targetting code.  Have fun.  You know C++, right?
06:45 < Cryp71c> sorear: lol, yeah. Why do I get the feeling it isn't a small task?
06:46 <+sorear> It's not a small task because you're new
06:46 <+sorear> due or I could do it in ten minutes, not counting the time required for the 3-4 make debug runs
06:46 < Cryp71c> sorear: would you prefer to do it, then, or ?
06:47  * due writing a play testing post at the minute.
06:47 <+sorear> You're going to have to find your way around Crawl at some point
06:47 <+sorear> Why not you do it
06:48 <+due> Cryp71c: :) Part of the fun is learning.
06:48 <+due> I still don't actually *know* C++.
06:48 <+due> So sorear's 3-4 make debug runs would equate to about 8 for me, as I'd have to fix code issues.
06:48 <+due> Which are almost always a) const problems, b) pointer problems, or c) reference problems.
06:48 <+greensnark> due: Oh btw, dpeg approved of Polyphemus using sheep as missiles :P
06:48 <+due> greensnark: Yesss.
06:48 < Twinge> <3 trial and error
06:48 < Cryp71c> sorear: alrighty. I suppose I'll take a look at it then
06:49 <+due> For the record, I despise *: is it mi->type? mi.type? *mi.type? (*mi).type? (*mi)->type? Argh.
06:49 <+due> (I actually purchased c++ in a nutshell simply to clear this up, and also because it's apparently a good book.)
06:49 < Twinge> I was actually surprised that I couldn't grok most of the code at all on first blush; I'm used to at least being able to understand random code I come across, even if I couldn't easily write it myself
06:50 < Eronarn> Twinge: Welcome to Crawl
06:50 < Cryp71c> Twinge: yeah I seem to be experiencing that. As near as I can tell, its because everything is functionally organized. Funcs for EVERYTHING
06:51 <+sorear> Eronarn: uh, you realize who Twinge is? :)
06:51 < Eronarn> no idea
06:51 <+due> sorear: Also, is there any reason why we can't  (or shouldn't) store the monsterentry information in monsters? It seems annoying and counterintuitive to have to look up monsterentry X just to get a monster's default glyph, colour, or to find its class flags (say, if it's a unique or not).
06:52 <+greensnark> due: mon->find_monsterentry() gives you its entry
06:52 <+sorear> Eronarn: he's one of the more accomplished ADOM binary divers.  In this context, him calling code particularly unreadable means something
06:52 < Eronarn> How... wonderful.
06:52 <+due> greensnark: Yeah, but that seems counterintuitive, still; I have to go mon->find_monsterentry(), and then check to see if that is M_UNIQUE.
06:53 <+sorear> due: no, you don't, you call mons_is_unique
06:53 <+due> sorear: Well, yeah.
06:53 <+sorear> if mons_is_unique doesn't exist, you write it
06:53 <+due> Hm.
06:53 <+due> Glyph lookup is similar; there are pretty wrappers to do it easily, but why?
06:54 < Twinge> Heh, don't put TOO much weight into that.  I was granted a good platform to start from, with a lot of the work done for me; I don't know that I would've been able to figure out anything from scratch.
06:54 <+greensnark> Using a function to hide the details of glyph lookup allows you to change how glyphs are handled
06:54 <+greensnark> Without changing all the code that uses the function
06:55 <+due> Oh, I'm not saying get rid of the function.
06:55 <+due> That would fuck mislead up big time. :)
06:55 <+due> I don't have any complaint, I just don't see why the function can't be looking up monsters::base_glyph instead of monsterentry(monster_type)::base_glyph, say.
06:56 <+due> I suppose it also means you can change glyphs without breaking save compatability/causing weird visual issues.
06:56 <+greensnark> Attacks and glyphs should really be per-monster
06:57 <+due> Anyway!
06:57 <+greensnark> And the attack crap in ghost_demon should be removed :P
06:57 <+due> Hehehe.
06:57 <+due> What was the Snake:5 issue again?I can't find the commit.
06:57 <+due> Was it causing validation issues iwthout vetoing?
07:00 <+greensnark> validation failures were not being reported to the caller
07:00 <+greensnark> So if the map failed validation 25 times in a row and wasn't placed, the dungeon builder was told "Yeah, all done correctly"
07:00 <+due> Ahhhhhh
07:00 <+due> *Nice*.
07:01 <+greensnark> The 25-times fail in a row made it rather hard to replicate :P
07:01 <+sorear> We need to get rid of all these silly "try N times" loops
07:01 <+due> That's one of those joyous "hardly ever occurring" things.
07:01 < Cryp71c> sorear: so the range for all smite spells should be -1, -1, and the failure to compile indicates an issue in SPFLAG_GRID ?
07:01 <+due> Oh man, I love how soetimes you just get clumps of gloom that hang around for ages.
07:02 <+sorear> Cryp71c: maybe!  I think we need input from a guru
07:02 <+sorear> Oh hey greensnark is here
07:02 <+sorear> greensnark: Should smite spells have finite ranges?  The code can't make up its mind
07:02 < Cryp71c> sorear: sorry, not a compile-time error, but a startup runtime error.
07:02 <+due> Yeah, you gotta love the startup runtime errors.
07:03 <+due> They make me fucking *mad*. You get through it all, and then it goes "Oops, you made a silly typo in enum.h! Guess what, you get to recompile *everything*!".
07:03 <+sorear> remember: the more stuff we move into Lua, the more startup runtime errors we'll get
07:03 <+greensnark> sorear: I don't know the intent
07:03 < Cryp71c> due: I rather like them, I can grep for parts of the error code and find the logic behind why they're getting thrown.
07:03 <+due> You don't have to recompile everything if you have a Lua error (generally).
07:03 <+due> Cryp71c: I prefer compile errors--preferably early on in the piece.
07:04 <+due> greensnark: Also, did you want me to update CDO?
07:04 <+greensnark> due: I wouldn't mind :)
07:04 < Cryp71c> due: you shouldn't have to recompile everything though. Just whatever you edited from the last time you compiled
07:04 <+due> Cryp71c: and if it's a bug in enum.h? ;)
07:04 < Cryp71c> due: I don't follow -_-
07:05 <+due> Cryp71c: If you hit enum.h, renaming or adding to an enum, you have to recompile 98% of the objects.
07:05 < Cryp71c> due: ah, I havn't had any reason to edit enum...it seems mostly a static list of the objects and such.
07:06 <+due> Adding new monsters, new spells, renaming spells... basically doing anything that involves  new content requires editing enum.h.
07:06 < Twinge> Hmm.  Where would I even find spell damages?  Assumedly in the spells# files, but a search for e.g. "Venom" or "Rapid" doesn't bring up Venom Bolt or Lee's Rapid Deconstruction...
07:06 <+due> We have this love-hate relationship for it.
07:06 <+due> Twinge: ZAP_XXX structures in beam.cc have the damage calculations for most bolt spells.
07:07 < Cryp71c> Twinge: for non-zap spells, then its usually in spells#.cc
07:07 <+due> Other spells are all over the place; monster-cast smite-targeetted spells are in effects.cc; other structures are in mon-cast.cc.
07:08 < Cryp71c> sorear: who would be the next person to check with since Greensnark isn't sure of the intent of smite-targetted spells?
07:09 < Cryp71c> sorear: or perhaps should I just open a bug for an innacurate range on fire storm, submit a small patch to bring the range to 7, 7 and address the smite code potentially being wrong after its been discussed via wiki?
07:10 < Twinge> Messy ;) 
07:10 < Twinge> Hah, there's code for... grenades.
07:11 < Eronarn> ...evap?
07:11 < Twinge> Orb of Fragmentation
07:12 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2133-g26707f5 (15.3)! Woohoo!
07:12 < Xiberia> orb of flashbang
07:12 < Twinge> 'The orb explodes into a blast of deadly shrapnel!'
07:12 <+due> IOOD, no?
07:12 < Twinge> Oh, maybe
07:16 < Cryp71c> sorear: went ahead and reported the error, discussion can take place on Mantis.
07:16 < Ashenzari> Fire Storm (e.g. ALL smite targetted spells) Targetting (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=379) by Cryp71c
07:18 < Cryp71c> G'night
07:19 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
07:20 <+due> What's the trope namer for "smite-targetted", anyway?
07:20 <+due> Is it NetHack?
07:20 <+sorear> Something smites you!
07:20 <+sorear> that
07:21 <+sorear> orc priests are the first enemy most players encounter with that ability
07:21 <+due> It actually comes from crawl, though?
07:21 <+sorear> yes
07:21 <+due> Oh, cool.
07:21 <+sorear> I wonder what the Official Trope Name is
07:21 <+due> For some reason I thought it was from another game.
07:22 <+sorear> smite targetting predates Crawl by quite a bit (arch-viles come to mind)
07:22 < Twinge> Hmm.  The only 'fragmentation' damage I can find is 'orb of fragmentation'; seems like that's probably not for Lee's.
07:22 <+due> It's not, I'm pretty sure.
07:22 <+due> Lee's uses BEAM_NUKE, no?
07:23 < Eronarn> sorear: gundam has "all-range attacks" predating doom
07:24 < Twinge> Not sure; there's this
07:24 < Twinge>     // eye of devastation?
07:24 < Twinge>     if (flavour == BEAM_NUKE)
07:24 < Twinge>         return (true);
07:24 < Twinge>     // Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
07:24 < Twinge>     if (flavour == BEAM_FRAG)
07:24 < Twinge> and in spl-data, there's this
07:24 < Twinge>     SPELL_FRAGMENTATION, "Lee's Rapid Deconstruction",
07:25 <+due> Oh, odd.
07:25 <+due> Maybe BEAM_NUKE is only for disint, then? Or blowing up corpses?
07:28 < Twinge> Blarg.
07:28 <+due> Twinge: I don't understand alf of crawl's code :0
07:28 <+due> also, I am glad I decided to do the play testing post today. Wow, so many changes.
07:29 <+sorear> Twinge: start at the top
07:30 <+sorear> Lee's does two kinds of damage
07:30 <+sorear> first, if you target a monster, it does disruption/disintegration damage (BEAM_NUKE)
07:30 <+sorear> second, if you target a wall (or brittle monster :>), it causes an explosion of BEAM_FRAG (shrapnel) splash damage
07:31 <+sorear> being blown up from the inside, and being hit by a spray of rock shards, are completely different damage types
07:31 <+sorear> BEAM_NUKE creates chunkspray if it kills something, BEAM_FRAG triples AC reduction
07:33 < Twinge> Ah.  Yeah I saw the triple AC reduction.  Am still blind to actual damage though.
07:37 <+due> ... finally *done*.
07:38  * due pants.
07:38 <+greensnark> Yay due
07:38 <+due> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=210
07:39 <+due> 23 bugs fixed in a week, nice :)
07:39 <+due> (How many new ones created?)
07:40 <+greensnark> due: "Monster's killed"
07:40 <+due> Danke
07:41 <+due> greensnark: I enjoyed the shoal buildin' post, too.
07:42 <+greensnark> Thanks :)
07:42 <+greensnark> I had a few beers yesterday :P
07:42 < ogaz> due: "Fractured grammer"
07:42 <+due> Ahaha, how humiliating.
07:42 <+greensnark> Ooh, ogaz is good
07:42 <+due> More like Fractured gamer, am I right?
07:42 <+greensnark> "My gramma's fractured"
07:43 <+due> Or, "My gamma's fracture! I AM DYING FORM RADIATION POISONING".
07:43 < purge> i don't think i will ever get used to the word "boni"
07:43 < Mu_> is that fireball suicide fix explicitly for fireballs or will it stop all aoers hitting themselves
07:43 <+due> Mu_: Explicitly fireball; what other AOE are hitting themselves?
07:43 < Mu_> cloudmage clouding himself ;p
07:43 <+greensnark> Cerebov often hits himself
07:44 <+due> Cerebov's pretty buff, though.
07:44 <+greensnark> Yep
07:44 <+due> When I grow up, I wanna be Cerebov.
07:45 <+due> If I actually used vim, you'd be able to watch me program too. :)
07:45 < ogaz> I think the agreement was that anyone who threw AOEs wouldn't AOE themselves if it would take away more then 50% of their remaining health or something like that
07:45 <+due> There's also foe/friend ratios to consider.
07:46 <+greensnark> due: What do you use? :P
07:46 <+due> gvim. :)
07:46 <+greensnark> Aha
07:46 <+due> Oh, nobody's watching me anyway.
07:46 <+due> :)
07:47 <+greensnark> Thick gloom, eh? :P
07:47 <+due> Okay, how much damage should sunlight do to vampires and shadows?
07:47 < purge> depends how easy it is to spam?
07:48 <+due> Very.
07:48 <+due> It's basically the invocations training skill.
07:48 <+due> Could trigger a fear event instead of causing damage?
07:48 < purge> with a chance for the monster to resist based on your inv skill?
07:49 <+due> Well, vampires are allergic to sunlight anyway.
07:49 < ogaz> vampires should clearly have a chance to sparkle instead
07:49 < Mu_> kill the basic vampires outright imo
07:49 < Mu_> who cares about vampires :p
07:49 < Twinge> Also depends if sunlight changes to gradual over time or stays insta-burst
07:50 <+due> True.
07:50 <+due> I'll leave vamps and shadows.
07:52 <+due> Hooray for linking taking forever.
07:53 <+due> Hm, might do that differnetly.
07:53 <+greensnark> Can I has build with gloom?
07:53 <+greensnark> I want to start a new character :P
07:53 <+greensnark> Another day, another Shoals death
07:53 < Mu_> i don't like it not having a glyph :o
07:53 <+greensnark> Heading straight for Shoals is enormous fun
07:53 <+greensnark> Everyone should try it
07:53 < purge> greensnark: how about an ogre assassin next to test the new needles? :)
07:54 <+greensnark> Do they get needles? :P
07:54 <+greensnark> I thought they got a club :P
07:54 < ogaz> OgAs has been won though :(
07:54 <+greensnark> Oh, unwon is not an issue here
07:54 < AceTetra> i was wondering about stacks of items that are the only item on the square. the faq item "Q: How can I drop/pick up only part of a stack?" says to use ",," or "gg", but both of those try to pick up the whole stack. has this been changed since 0.5?
07:54 < purge> greensnark: both
07:54 <+greensnark> Going into Shoals at XL 12 rarely makes for long games :P
07:55 < purge> greensnark: they even start with a few curare :O
07:55 <+due> AceTetra: You need gg4<num>, probably.
07:55 <+due> Mu_: It looks cool, though.
07:55 <+due> Er, not num, but letter.
07:56 <+due> Mu_: With recolouring it's actually noticeable.
07:56 < AceTetra> due: the first g picks up the whole stack
07:56 <+due> Hm.
07:56 < Mu_> oppressive gloom imo :p
07:56 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
07:57 < ogaz> greensnark: maybe try SpAs? you might actually be able to grab the rune that way
07:57 <+due> Problem is that gloom spreads so quickly that sunlight needs to do a heck of a lot more damage to the cloud system than what it currently does.
07:57 <+greensnark> ogaz: You mean get out alive and have to do the midgame? :P
07:57 <+greensnark> Where's the fun in that? :)
07:57 < Mu_> fill every square of tartarus with gloom please
07:57 < AceTetra> oh, on the gloom issue: i haven't really been paying attention, but how about having the LOS radius of the player depend on the distance from the gloom source?
07:58 <+due> AceTetra: It's an opaque cloud; distance doesn't really come into it, to be honest.
07:58 <+greensnark> Mu_: Nooooo!
07:58 <+due> New monster spell in the works: Shadow Ball.
07:58 < ogaz> use it to capture the shadow dragons
07:59 < Mu_> prolly wouldn't be able to because of cloud limits anyway :p
07:59 <+due> Yeah, effing cloud limits.
07:59  * due glares at greensnark.
07:59 <+due> Can something be done about the cloud limits, btw?
07:59 < Mu_> i'll fill up ereshkigal's pyramid with gloom in my tar map at least
07:59 <+greensnark> :P
07:59 <+greensnark> You can increase MAX_CLOUDS
07:59 <+greensnark> If you don't mind rebuilding everything :P
08:00 < Eronarn> due: shadow ball seems a bit... boring
08:00 < Eronarn> if it's like steam ball
08:00 < Eronarn> what about making all corners in LOS turn into gloom generators
08:00 <+due> greensnark: But is there a particular reason why  MAX_CLOUDS in that?
08:01 <+due> Er, is that number?
08:02 <+greensnark> Arbitrary
08:02 <+due> Ah.
08:03 <+due> Hm, 180.
08:03 <+due> I suppose setting it to 5600 is too much to ask forr? ;)
08:03 <+greensnark> :P
08:04 < Mu_> shies away? :p
08:04 <+due> How about 360 or so?
08:04 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
08:04 <+due> Mu_: Temporary wording.
08:04 < Eronarn> Monster.s killed (specifically, aquatic monsters) with Fedhas.s Sunlight ability will be correctly attributed to the player."
08:05 <+due> Eronarn: Yeah, changed ti monsters killed. :)
08:05 <+due> Fedhas's is correct, thouh.
08:05 <+due> *thought.
08:16 <+due> I dumped the "shies away"
08:17 <+due> greensnark: Would making it an elemental colour help? Like... MAGENTA/DARKGREY/BLUE?
08:18 < Mu_> gloom doesn't really shimmer :o
08:19 <+due> True.
08:19 < Mu_> yavar is in range of mara btw if you want to watch, though he's running away atm
08:19 < Twinge> Running away from Mara is a pro plan
08:19 <+due> Oh
08:20 < Twinge> 'R' is for 'Run Away'!
08:20 <+due> No mislead :9
08:21 <+due> greensnark: Mah-rah--long or short/
08:26 <+greensnark> due: I'd pronounce it Muh-RAH, but I don't know if that's correct
08:27 <+greensnark> Demonic casters traditionally ignore silence :P
08:27 <+due> Yeah.
08:27 <+greensnark> You should just get rid of Mara's M_ACTUAL_SPELLS :P
08:27 <+due> Hm.
08:27 <+greensnark> M_ACTUAL_SPELLS and M_PRIEST make monster silencable
08:28 <+greensnark> Can rakshasas summon fakes under silence?
08:28 <+greensnark> If they can, unleash Mara :P
08:28 <+due> Checking
08:28 <+due> No. :/
08:28 <+greensnark> Allow them to use it when silenced as well :P
08:28 <+due> :D
08:29 <+due> Man, the joys of power creep.
08:29 <+greensnark> Power creep cannot be used to describe rakshasas
08:30 <+greensnark> It's more like feeble creep
08:30 < ogaz> annoyance creep?
08:30 < Eronarn> Mu_: shadows can definitely flicker.
08:30 <+greensnark> Well, nobody bothers to silence them anyway
08:30 <+greensnark> :P
08:30 < ogaz> they're demons so I assumed they were unsilencable
08:30 <+due> True.
08:30 < Mu_> Eronarn: they move, they don't shift between a dazzling array of colours :p
08:31 < Eronarn> rakshasa illusions should get one-hit dispelled imo
08:31 < Eronarn> Mu_: yes, but, ascii limitations :P
08:31 < Mu_> ;-)
08:31 < CIA-81> due * r241dd89547a4 /crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: All other demons are immune to silence (greensnark, ogaz).
08:31  * sorear grumbles at CRD
08:31 <+greensnark> Hey, you don't have to credit me :P
08:31 <+sorear> "nooo, stabbing is too good"
08:31 < Twinge> Hah
08:32 < ogaz> why did I get credit?
08:32 <+greensnark> Especially when it comes to potentially unpopular decisions :P
08:32 <+greensnark> ogaz: Because we love you!
08:32 < ogaz> <3
08:32 <+due> ogaz: We <3 ogaz.
08:32 < ogaz> also, Geryon should remain silencable
08:32 <+greensnark> ogaz is going to get ragged on ##crawl for being a player-hater
08:32 <+due> If I get to show that other people agreed with me, I'm less likely to be challenged.
08:32 <+doy> greensnark: what do you think about the new lair generation?
08:33 <+due> doy: I, for one, love it; however, need clumps of fungi and plants.
08:33 <+greensnark> doy: Looked interestingly different, but it's not on cdo yet :P
08:33  * greensnark pokes due to update.
08:33 <+due> greensnark: It is!
08:33 <+due> greensnark: I updated hours ago.
08:33 <+greensnark> Oh, it is?
08:33 <+greensnark> Nice!
08:33  * due cackles with power.
08:33 < ogaz> due: is Geryon still silencable?
08:33 <+due> ogaz: Yes.
08:34 < ogaz> thanks :)
08:34 < Mu_> trying to silence mara should irritate him and make him cast twice a round from then on
08:34 < Eronarn> sorear: stabbing is too good. so is attacking things. all attacks should drain MP
08:34 <+greensnark> Geryon has to sound his horn, he should be silenceable
08:34 <+due> Specifically because his spells are horn-derived.
08:34 <+due> Geryon's such a horny creature.
08:34 <+greensnark> Oh, whoever added the description "player has to blow Geryon's horn" for the Vestibule wins the double entendre medal
08:34 <+due> Haha, is that really in there? Nice.
08:35 <+due> I love the huge clumps of gloom.
08:35 <+due> It looks so cool.
08:36 <+sorear> Why do I waste time reply to Evan Williams
08:37 <+due> Evan = Vandal, non?
08:37 <+sorear> Which of you incompetent admins gave Evan Williams the wiki write bit?
08:37 <+sorear> I have no idea who's who, sorry
08:38 <+due> The crawl-dev re-education program is currently under way in that regard!
08:39 <+sorear> Very funny, then, that I got the same first impression of him twice
08:39 <+due> Heh.
08:42 <+due> Now... how to make gloom look good in tiles.
08:44 <+due> No snark which is green playing crawl which is develz.org!
08:44 <+greensnark> Doing some work stuff
08:47 <+due> Ah :)
08:47 <+due> Damn work.
08:54 <+due> doy: mgen_data is evil.
08:54 <+doy> yeah, this is pretty gross
08:57 <+due> doy: check create_monster usage in mon-cast's summoning section
08:57 <+sorear> what's the deal with mgen_data anyway
08:58 <+due> sorear: Don't know, I break out in hives whenever I look at it.
08:58 <+sorear> the old create_monster had about 40 parameters, was that really worse than wrapping them all in a mgen_data
08:58 <+due> doy: A duration of 0 will mark them as non-summoned.
08:58 <+due> In... theory.
09:00 <+greensnark> mgen_data was supposed to have convenience constructors
09:00 <+greensnark> But people keep adding extra params to the convenience methods :P
09:00 <+due> It does, actually.
09:00 <+greensnark> hostile_at was supposed to have two parameters :P
09:00 <+due> greensnark: I know! We're evil.
09:00 <+greensnark> It was not supposed to get extra params for summons!
09:00 <+greensnark> That should have been hostile_summon_at :P
09:01 <+due> We can adjust it to that, I think.
09:01 <+greensnark> Or aligned_summon_at
09:01 <+greensnark> Yeah, the various static constructors should be as simple as possible
09:01 <+due> ... wtf, this tiles ubuild is... completely broken.
09:03 < Eronarn> sorear: vandal ended up getting it because he was the first person to ask and an official policy hadn't been put into place, basically
09:04 < Eronarn> i think it was dpeg
09:04 <+doy> why are curse skulls placed by the level generation code, anyway
09:04 <+due> doy: I honestly have *no* idea.
09:04 <+doy> can't we just have a curse skull dummy vault?
09:05 <+greensnark> That's ooold code :)
09:05 < AceTetra> curse skulls are placed whenever possible, because they annoy players
09:06 < Eronarn> s/walls/curse skulls/
09:06 < AceTetra> the only time a curse skull wasn't placed for me was the crypt 5 with uncaged liches, where you get either a curse skull or a lich
09:06 < Eronarn> s/curse skullls/curse walls/
09:06 < AceTetra> i would have preferred the lich
09:09 <+greensnark> So haunt is a level 6 spell that summons multiple friendlies around a target of your choice?
09:09 <+greensnark> Pretty strong L6
09:09 <+due> Yup.
09:09 <+due> Isn't it dual-school?
09:09 <+greensnark> Summon/Necro, yes
09:10 < purge> greensnark: doing shoals:5
09:11 <+greensnark> purge: <3
09:11 <+greensnark> You have too much AC and hp :/
09:11 <+greensnark> I might not get the splat I want :/
09:12 <+due> Mermaids teleport?
09:12 <+greensnark> The siren behaviour of heading off into deep water once you're mesmerised is obnoxious :P
09:13 <+greensnark> If you don't have a melee attack you're stuck on the water's edge for a few hundred turns until she comes near the shore :P
09:13 <+greensnark> *don't have a ranged attack
09:14 <+greensnark> Hm, purge has all three stairs next to each other
09:14 <+greensnark> purge: What version are you playing?
09:14 <+due> purge: ?v!
09:14 <+due> 0af1d...
09:14 <+greensnark> Oh, ok
09:15 < Mu_> so does clouded
09:15 <+due> doy: Nic eclumps.
09:15 <+sorear> greensnark: you need to fix that, make them end it quickly if you know what I mean
09:15 <+doy> a bit too many
09:15 <+doy> (:
09:15 <+due> doy: Maybe a bit too many, ... yeah
09:15 <+greensnark> Where are the clumps?
09:16 < purge> cdo keeps locking for several seconds
09:16 <+doy> greensnark: all the cool people are watching termcast
09:16 <+doy> heh
09:16 <+greensnark> Lair:248?
09:16 <+doy> i tried to teleport straight to lair from the abyss
09:16 <+doy> i guess it didn't like that
09:16 <+greensnark> Oh, that should be fixed
09:16 <+greensnark> Yeah, wizmode &~ doesn't do some things right
09:17 <+doy> i want something for "remove all monsters except plants and fungi"
09:19 <+greensnark> purge: Too easy :P
09:20 < purge> yeah seems so
09:20 < purge> its my mutation
09:20 < purge> +10 ac :D
09:21 <+doy> hmmm
09:22 <+doy> i guess for lair it doesn't matter if i place like 100 plants/fungi
09:22 <+greensnark> You can safely place about 200 plants/fungi
09:23 <+greensnark> Beyond that you start cutting into active monsters' space
09:24 <+greensnark> purge: Say hi to Ilsuiw for me
09:24 < purge> things went south
09:24 < purge> have to teleport
09:24 <+greensnark> Well, you can teleport out easily :)
09:25 < purge> there she is
09:26 <+greensnark> Your Balrug got her :?
09:26 <+greensnark> :'(
09:26 < purge> hehe
09:26 < CIA-81> doy * r8c6033d18dd4 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: actually place the plants in the place that the wall was removed from
09:26 < CIA-81> doy * r958627e9c8f5 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: place clumps of plants/fungi in lair levels too
09:27 <+doy> any other lair ideas?
09:27 <+due> More vaults?
09:28 <+due> Cages?
09:28 < ogaz> more death yaks
09:28 <+due> Rooms with fountains and broken down walls would be nice.
09:28 < ogaz> cages don't make sense since lair is supposed to be abandoned
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09:29 <+doy> yes, we should have more lair-specific minivaults
09:29 <+by> good morning
09:29 <+doy> but that's somebody else's job
09:29 <+doy> (:
09:29 <+greensnark> More Lair-specific vaults!
09:29 <+greensnark> And bears should be nastier :P
09:29 <+greensnark> Hiya by
09:29 < purge> steel javelins hurt \
09:30 <+due> greensnark: Bears are nasty, with berserk.
09:30 <+due> We need a bear tamer unique.
09:30 <+greensnark> No, they're pushovers even with zerk
09:30 <+greensnark> Because they use berserk when they have approx 2 hp :P
09:30 < ogaz> More death yaks
09:30 <+greensnark> And the resulting 4 hp while superior to 2 hp
09:30 <+greensnark> Is not enough :)
09:31 <+by> !lg * killer=~bear max=sc
09:31 <+due> The effect isn't as cool in tiles.
09:31 <+doy> hidden traps are still visible on the overmap
09:31 <+due> But eh, who cares.
09:31 <+doy> someone should fix that
09:31 <+due> doy: Only wizmode mapping though, right?
09:31 < Henzell> 88. simul the Bludgeoner (L14 OgBe), worshipper of Trog, slain by a grizzly bear on D:15 on 2008-09-25, with 55144 points after 33256 turns and 3:06:13.
09:32 <+doy> due: ah, i don't know
09:32 < ogaz> !lg * killer=~bear s=cv
09:32 < Henzell> 88 games for * (killer=~bear): 53x 0.4, 21x 0.5, 8x 0.6, 4x 0.2, 2x 0.3
09:33 <+due> Perhaps bears could be honey-scenters.
09:33 <+due> If you're carrying honeycombs, they can track you like boring beetles.
09:33 <+by> !lg * killer=~bear cv>=0.5 s=killer
09:33 < Henzell> 29 games for * (killer=~bear cv>=0.5): 13x a grizzly bear, 7x a polar bear, 5x a bear simulacrum, 3x a black bear, 1x a bear
09:34 <+due> purge: Strangedtaur, hehehe.
09:34 <+due> *Strandedtaur.
09:34 < purge> hehe yup
09:34 <+due> purge: What do you think of the new lair layout?
09:34 <+sorear> greensnark: let's make berserk increase HP 20x, that would make bears scarier
09:34 < purge> due: this is the version before it was implemented
09:34 < purge> haven't tried it yet
09:34 <+due> purge: Aw.
09:35 <+by> bears could get a special berserk that heals them for 10 prior to berserking
09:35 <+due> doy: Does this mean that it won't generate bubble levels any more?
09:35 <+doy> due: yes
09:35 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
09:35 <+due> Yesss.
09:35 <+sorear> bears could just be made to zerk earlier, say at 66% HP
09:35 <+due> doy: I'm termcasting currnetly-about-to-ush gloom, can I get your thoughts before I do so?
09:36 <+due> doy: (This is the greensnark-approved version.)
09:36 <+doy> due: the different color on the edge makes it *much* better
09:36 <+due> doy: I agree strongly.
09:36 <+doy> not sure how i feel about purple, but i like it in general
09:36 <+due> Blue overlays other features too much.
09:36 <+sorear> What does gloom do?
09:36 < Napkin> Moin guys!
09:36 <+doy> alright, regenerated the screenshots at http://tozt.net/uploads/images/screenshots/crawl/
09:37 < Napkin> due, great article <3
09:37 <+doy> with the new plant generation stuff
09:37 <+due> sorear: New iteration of the los-blocking cloud.
09:37 <+due> <3 lair now.
09:37 <+doy> should update cdo again
09:37 <+doy> (:
09:38 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit [Client Quit]
09:38  * Napkin is still sipping the first coffee * Be my guest, due ;>
09:38 <+due> Okay, may as well push.
09:38 <+due> It's unused.
09:39 <+due> And it'll be nice in portal vaults.
09:39 < CIA-81> due * r28adee417435 /crawl-ref/source/ (9 files in 3 dirs): New type of cloud: thick gloom.
09:39 <+due> Oh, should've pushed sandstorm while I was at it.
09:40 <+due> Hooray for speedy-compile :)
09:40 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2136-g958627e (15.3)!
09:41 < Napkin> \o/
09:41 < ogaz> by the way, with hand crossbows gone, what's happening to Th?
09:41 <+Zaba> think gloom?..
09:41  * Zaba ponders
09:43 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
09:43 <+doy> !lg * cv=0.6 s=-role
09:43 < Henzell> 12909 games for * (cv=0.6): 45x Healer, 130x Reaver, 163x Stalker, 173x Air Elementalist, 175x Paladin, 183x Summoner, 184x Gladiator, 220x Hunter, 224x Thief, 237x Venom Mage, 271x Death Knight, 285x Earth Elementalist, 292x Fire Elementalist, 342x Monk, 365x Ice Elementalist, 385x Berserker, 424x Warper, 425x Assassin, 439x Conjurer, 456x Wizard, 533x Crusader, 537x Necromancer, 632x Priest, 654...
09:44 <+due> Zaba: Thick gloom! Not think.
09:44 <+doy> !lg * cv=0.5 s=-role
09:44 < Henzell> 194075 games for * (cv=0.5): 2088x Wanderer, 2150x Warper, 2194x Healer, 2550x Summoner, 2753x Venom Mage, 2774x Hunter, 3122x Earth Elementalist, 3254x Priest, 3565x Air Elementalist, 3718x Artificer, 3995x Gladiator, 4172x Ice Elementalist, 4733x Paladin, 4745x Monk, 5080x Fire Elementalist, 5087x Death Knight, 5268x Assassin, 6077x Conjurer, 6401x Reaver, 7330x Crusader, 8884x Transmuter, 9270x...
09:44 <+due> Zaba: Delicious, interface-destroying clouds.
09:44 <+due> Nothing is plannet to happen to thief.
09:44 <+due> But we could probably comfortably nuke them for 0.6.
09:44 <+Zaba> oh
09:44 <+Zaba> hm.
09:44  * Zaba ponders further
09:44 < st_> oklob stair vault in lair5.png :(
09:44 <+by> DDTh started with crossbow skill which seems weird
09:44 <+due> by: Really? After hand crosbows were gone?
09:45 <+due> I thought I fixed the skill. 
09:45 <+by> yes
09:45 <+by> maybe it was fixed since I started the game?
09:45 <+due> Oh, bah.
09:45 <+due> No.
09:46 <+doy> st_: (:
09:46 < ogaz> I think they should either get something else to compensate for hand crossbows being removed or be axed
09:48 <+by> just giving them throwing skill should be fine
09:48 < Napkin> what does the other dwarven thief start with?
09:49 <+by> same probably
09:50 <+due> Yeah, I've changed it to throwing skill.
09:50 < ortoslon> so will you update windows builds anytime soon? i'm aiming for a long game :)
09:51 <+due> ortoslon: I can do so now,if you'd like.
09:51 < ortoslon> yes please
09:51 < Napkin> updated just yesterday, ortoslon 
09:51 < CIA-81> due * r5b7dc12c9c23 /crawl-ref/source/newgame.cc: Don't give Thieves crossbow skills (by).
09:51 <+due> Oh, did we?
09:51 < ortoslon> but playtesting post is today
09:52 <+due> I thought it was a few days ago.
09:52 < Napkin> you were a bit busy yesterday, so i did :)
09:52 <+due> :)
09:52 <+due> hooray napkin!
09:52 < Napkin> and I upgraded my dad to trunk :D
09:53 <+due> Go napkindad!
09:53 < Napkin> I saw some nice reactions :D
09:53 < ortoslon> btw: two fresh crawl-infected in my dorm
09:53 < Napkin> calling darts the lesser javelins now :D
09:53 < Napkin> good job, ortoslon! :D
09:54 < ortoslon> those are roommates of old infected. crawl seems to spread through air, esp. now when it's cold and immunity's lowered
09:56 < ortoslon> due: so update or no update now?
09:56 <+doy> hmmm
09:57 <+doy> should curse skulls be able to be (wandering)?
09:57 <+due> Ahahaha, no.
09:57 <+due> It should bbe (distracted).
09:57 <+due> ortoslon: If Napkin says yes, then sure.
09:58 < Napkin> of course - gogogo :)
09:58 < Napkin> I was just saying - not much changed since yesterday
09:58 <+due> Okay, let's see if I remember how. :0
09:58 <+due> Well, we've got a new Lair layout generator.
09:58  * Napkin whispers: scripts in ~/bin
09:58 <+due> Yeah. :)
09:59 <+due> Napkin: Want me to run in screen to confirm that I'm doing it okay? :)
10:00 < Napkin> uhmmm. sure :)
10:00 < Napkin> start one
10:00 <+due> Done!
10:00 < Napkin> ok, everything's right :D
10:00 <+due> Thoought so :D
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10:04 <+due> ortoslon: Doing non-tiles at the minute, will do tiles shortly.
10:04 <+due> Napkin: I sstill have to update the index file manually, right?
10:05 < Napkin> yes
10:05 < Napkin> until someone writes a directory indexer and converts the trunk page into some scripting language
10:05 <+due> Maybe we can make a template index.html with some tokens and we can just substitute them in?
10:05 <+due> Heh.
10:06 < Napkin> no, I don't like those "latest" links
10:06 <+due> Ah.
10:06 < Napkin> well.. of course possible
10:06 <+due> Well, python would do it pretty quickly.
10:06 < Napkin> but sucky
10:06 < Napkin> everything would - just someone needs to find time :)
10:08 <+due> Napkin: What exactly do you want? a "Tiles" subheading with a sorted list of the tiles .zips, and another for "Non-Tiles", likewise?
10:08 <+due> Sorted by date?
10:08 < Napkin> 1s
10:08 <+due> It would probably be better just to have a script that outputs a .html file instead.
10:09 < Napkin> well, that would do.. but
10:10 < Napkin> since we keep old zips for a while
10:10 <+due> It would save setitng up cgi and all of that!
10:10 < Napkin> i think an archive listing would be nice
10:11 < Napkin> and at the top just present the 2 files with the latest timestamp
10:11 <+due> That's also easily doable.
10:11 <+due> One moment
10:12 < Napkin> tiles/non-tiles flag can be parsed from the file name, so can be version name
10:12 <+due> Yeah.
10:12 <+due> And dating can be parsed from python's listing easily.
10:12 < Napkin> and maybe an archive.html instead to list all old versions
10:12 < Napkin> nice
10:13 < Napkin> i'm just not used to php and python - writing it would just mean a lot of manual lookups which are very time consuming
10:13 <+due> Ah, I can do it.
10:13 <+due> Hang on.
10:15 < Napkin> -- Press RETURN to create zip --
10:15 <+due> oops, sorry.
10:16 <+due> oh, whoops.
10:16 <+due> Ahhh.
10:17 <+due> I've got a list in another window :)
10:18 <+due> Hooray!
10:25 <+doy> hmmm
10:25 <+due> ortoslon: Oh, new builds are up, btw.
10:25 <+doy> marking a vault as 'extra' seems to make it just not get placedd
10:25 < ortoslon> playing already
10:28 <+due> hooray
10:29 <+doy> anyone know why that might be?
10:29 < ortoslon> how does blowgun to-dam apply?
10:31 <+due> ortoslon: It doesn't, to be honest?
10:32 < ortoslon> maybe include it in the saving throw formula then
10:32 < ortoslon> instead of to-hit
10:38 <+due> Actually, I'll probably just delete to-dam anyway.
10:39 <+due> It's slightly misleading.
10:39 < ortoslon> from all weapons?
10:39 < ortoslon> or blowguns only
10:43 <+due> Blowgnus only, of course.
10:47 < Twinge> Well, it's misleading on all the other weapons too, just not as much ;)
10:49 <+due> Hehehe.
10:52 <+due> Man, my python code standard is *shocking*. :)
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11:39 <+sorear> would somebody please check ##crawl for me
11:40 <+sorear> did I actually say "in a deliberate attempt to make the game less fun for others"
11:40 <+sorear> because zid is ignoring that phrase no matter how many times I rub it in his face
11:40 <+sorear> (zid is banned from #nethack for a reason btw)
11:41 <+due> I have him on mental ignore for a reason, too.
11:41 < AceTetra> i might be a sticky flame kerk but i agree about zid
11:41 < AceTetra> jerk not kerk
11:47 < ortoslon> is sticky being nerfed?
11:47 < Napkin> !tell Keskitalo Beep me when you have time? The way the mingw32 builds are built has changed slightly :)
11:47 < Henzell> Napkin: OK, I'll let Keskitalo know.
11:50 <+due> Hooray for troll-y ##crawl.
11:50 < AceTetra> i still agree about zid :/
11:50 <+due> What are they even complaining about  today? I'm unsure.
11:50 < Napkin> *** Windows development builds updated: http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/ - now with archive! ***
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11:52 <+sorear> 02:52 < zid`> and sorear is butthurt
11:52 <+sorear> this is more like the zid I know
11:53 < Ashenzari> Haunt targetting is exploitable (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=380) by OG17
11:54 <+greensnark> sorear: Why are you even paying attention to zid`
11:54 < AceTetra> does zid even do anything notable?
11:54 <+sorear> greensnark: because everybody else is, and I don't want him to have all the mindshare
11:55 <+greensnark> You're worrying about ... zid ... winning mindshare?
11:56 <+sorear> I'm not worrying about it, I'm watching it happen
11:56 <+sorear> And quite frankly it terrifies me
11:57 < AceTetra> i'm watching ##crawl forget about zid less than 10 minutes after it said anything
11:57 <+greensnark> Yeah, don't sweat it 
11:57 <+greensnark> Zero perspiration
11:57  * due sprays the channel with deoderant.
11:57 <+greensnark> Besides, it's not like ##crawl is filled with beautiful and innocent minds that will be irreparably corrupted by zd
11:58 <+greensnark> These people are on IRC :P
11:58 <+greensnark> There is no beauty or innocence here :P
11:58 <+greensnark> They can take their risks like the rest of us :P
11:59 < AceTetra> damn right greensnark
11:59 <+greensnark> Oh noo, AceTetra agrees with me, what have I done?! :)
12:00 < AceTetra> whoops, i better step back back onto the zid side of the line, aaaahahahaha
12:02 <+greensnark> Yeah, back there!
12:02  * greensnark pokes AceTetra with a cattle prod
12:04 < AceTetra> sounds like another good mace base type
12:05 <+due> O_o
12:07 <+greensnark> I have a custom ankus hooked up to a power transformer next door
12:07 <+due> Cattle prod is basically an electrocution-branded ankus.
12:08 < AceTetra> good choice with the ankus, i wouldn't be afraid of an electrified mace
12:08 <+greensnark> "Custom"
12:08 <+due> "Custom"--does it have chrome plating and racing stripes?
12:08 < AceTetra> seems to me like ankuses ought to use axe skill, since they're not symmetrical
12:09 < AceTetra> that's not very funny though
12:09 <+due> Hehehehe.
12:13 <+due> 0003679 | haranp | 2006-11-22 12:54:01 +0000
12:13 <+due> Goodbye, gold dropping. We wish thee well. If I misunderstood and this is still 
12:13 <+due> HAHAHA
12:13 <+due> up for debate, my apologies and please revert.
12:13 <+greensnark> Someone's looking at ancient Sumerian records :P
12:14 <+due> Yup.
12:14 <+due> A surprisingly large number of commits tagged with dshaligram, too.
12:14 <+due> MAX_CLOUDS is still on 100. We may want to increase this.
12:14 <+due> STRONGLY AGREE.
12:14 <+greensnark> :P
12:15 <+due> Okay!
12:15 <+due> Time to start on Vualts layout.
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12:17 <@dpeg> cheers
12:17 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
12:17 <@dpeg> !messages
12:17 < Henzell> (1/2) doy said (10h 22m 56s ago): http://tozt.net/uploads/images/screenshots/crawl/ (lair[1-8].png)
12:18 <+due> dpeg!
12:18 <@dpeg> due!
12:18 <@dpeg> doy!
12:18 <@dpeg> dpeg!
12:19 <+due> Hi :)
12:19 <+due> doy's Lair looks really nice, and was really simple.
12:19 <+due> And I spoke with Enne about a simple way to do your Vaults changes.
12:19 <+due> Was that an 0.6 target?
12:20 <@dpeg> no, of course not :)
12:20 <@dpeg> it if it really simple, sure
12:20 <@dpeg> add it in
12:20 <@dpeg> !seen Henryci
12:20 < Henzell> I last saw henryci at Sun Jan 10 11:12:50 2010 UTC (7m 27s ago) quitting with message "Lost terminal".
12:20 <@dpeg> damn
12:20 <@dpeg> !messages
12:20 < Henzell> (1/1) Vandal said (8h 11m 17s ago): You may want to get a drink.. http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:skills:stabbing
12:20 <+due> :)
12:21 <+due> I've been working on an auto-update script for CDO'ss websites, but I will still do Troves!
12:21 <@dpeg> !tell doy The new Lair levels look very good! Two comments: (1) bushes! (2) The plant cluster look too much like 3x3 -- need more fractalisation. (3) Are doors now gone? Lair is the branch where doors help most, tactically.
12:21 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let doy know.
12:22 <@dpeg> due: yay!
12:22 <+due> I believe doors are completely gone.
12:22 <+due> They can maybe be added back in randomly, perhaps?
12:22 <@dpeg> well, one way to keep both would be if you could make doors somehow
12:23 <@dpeg> but in particular, doy's change is a strong nerf :)
12:25 <+due> True, but non-bubble Lair levels aren't that common, really.
12:25 <@dpeg> !tell doy More comments: your change is a double nerf to Lair (no more room & corridors; no more doors). I am fine with this nerf, and it fits that we made Lair harder anyway. We should just be honest about it. Next, what about placing the odd tree as well? And some walls could be coloured green (moss).
12:25 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let doy know.
12:25 <+due> Oh, there are still corridors.
12:25 <+due> dpeg: Doy already had an idea for mossy walls, and I was fully behind it.
12:25 <@dpeg> due: more than just colouring them green?
12:26 <+due> Yeah.
12:26 <@dpeg> not sure I want complicated new features :)
12:26 <+due> Easier than futzing around with descriptions and markers, I think.
12:26 <@dpeg> so: moss with a gameplay effect?
12:26 <+due> Moss with a visual effect, yes.
12:27 <+due> I'm not sure what gameplay effect they could have.
12:27 <@dpeg> couldn't we simply have green m = "moss-covered rock wall"
12:27 <@dpeg> They should have no gameplay effect, like blood.
12:27 <+due> Sure.
12:27 <+greensnark> Moss covered walls would look good in tiles
12:27 <+due> That's exactlly what I mean.
12:27 <+due> greensnark: Yup.
12:27 <@dpeg> greensnark: hi!
12:27 <+due> DNGN_MOSS_ROCK_WALL
12:27 <+greensnark> Heyy dpeg
12:27 <+due> I think a new feature would be better than a fprop, though.
12:27 <@dpeg> due: but we don't do it like this for blood, right?
12:27 <+due> But an fprop would allow for moss-covered floor...
12:28 <+due> And moss-covered statues!
12:28 < Twinge> blood has 1 gameplay effect =)
12:28 <+greensnark> Is there a mossy overlay for tiles?
12:28 <+due> Not sure.
12:28 <+due> We have purge, though. :)
12:28 <+due> No, we don't.
12:28 <+greensnark> Ok, I shall investigate the new Lair!
12:28 <+greensnark> And I shall try one of the new easy-mode wanderers :P
12:29 <@dpeg> greensnark: would you quickly do the two berserk changes? The c-r-d talk is going in random directions and nobody suggested a replacement amulet, so let's screw that.
12:29 <+greensnark> dpeg: HP change and remove rSlow?
12:29 <+greensnark> I can do those
12:29 <+due> dpeg: I also got distracted because I was depressed and made a new cloud.
12:29 <+greensnark> Did any of the new amulets get approved?
12:30 <@dpeg> greensnark: no comments
12:30 <@dpeg> I think both Faith and Stasis should be non-controversial.
12:30 <+due> I think Perception is non-controversial.
12:30 <@dpeg> although both would befit from more discussion
12:30 <+due> And Decay.
12:30 <+due> dpeg: Amulet of Control: Controll teleports and flight?
12:30 <@dpeg> do you recall who added Haunt? Stefan or Adam?
12:30 <+due> Adam, i'm pretty sure.
12:31 <@dpeg> due: and remove the ring?
12:31 <+due> Yes.
12:31 <+due> I just had an argument with OG17 about Haunt in ##crawl :)
12:31 <@dpeg> !tell kilobyte Would you comment on Mantis item 380? It's about Haunt, and I feel that the OP may be correct, actually.
12:31 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
12:31 <@dpeg> due: :P
12:31 <+due> dpeg: I think it's a non-issue myself.
12:31 <@dpeg> due: I think the comment is valuable.-
12:31 <+due> Sure.
12:32 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, those two. Adding another amulet is at your discretion. :)
12:32 <+due> It was more the attitude in ##crawl that was annoying. :)
12:32 <+due> which was "Haunt is massively broken and you must fix it now".
12:32 <@dpeg> But I have to make sure to reap my rewards, now that those turtles happily roam the Shoals. By the way, why not "testudines"?
12:32 <+greensnark> Hm, I didn't get that impression from OG17, but I wasn't reading closely
12:32 <+due> greensnark: I could be in a foul mood. :)
12:33 <+greensnark> dpeg: Can't use testudines in the name, because nobody will understand, but we could use it in the description :)
12:33 <+greensnark> Also: I died to a snapping turtle :P
12:33 <+greensnark> !lg
12:33 < Henzell> 434. greensnark the Brawler (L14 OgMo), worshipper of Trog, mangled by a snapping turtle on Shoal:5 on 2010-01-10, with 43246 points after 29564 turns and 3:31:27.
12:33 <+due> Mwahahaha.
12:33 <@dpeg> greensnark: those who sow war... :)
12:33 <+greensnark> It was the siren's fault :P
12:34 <@dpeg> greensnark: I love it when nobody understands! Ballistomycete...
12:34 <@dpeg> ah, nice combo attack
12:34 <+greensnark> At least I narrowly avoided splatting to a sheep in the previous game :P
12:34 <+greensnark> I'd never have lived that down
12:34 < syllogism> !lg greensnark -tv
12:34 < Henzell> 434. greensnark, XL14 OgMo, T:29564 requested for FooTV.
12:34 <+due> greensnark: Ballista + the latin for mushroom?
12:34 <+due> Er.
12:34 <+due> dpeg, re: ballistomyctes.
12:35 <+sorear> yes
12:35 <@dpeg> due: Yes.
12:35 <+due> ... I understood it?
12:35 <@dpeg> well, mycete is something about sporing
12:35 <+due> Ah.
12:37 <+greensnark> I still haven't quite figured out the new teleport timing
12:38 < syllogism> should have just closed the door :P
12:38 <+greensnark> Yeah :P
12:38 <@dpeg> due: Amulet of Control would be okay, I fully agree.
12:38 < Ashenzari> Roxanne uses shared caster emotes (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=381) by OG17
12:38 <+greensnark> Amazing how you forget the basics :)
12:39 <@dpeg> please, shout potential 0.7 keywords -- quick'n dirty please
12:40 <+due> keywords?
12:40 <+due> holy monsters
12:40 <@dpeg> summon cap
12:40 <@dpeg> Swamp layout + overhaul
12:40 <@dpeg> Hive portal vaults
12:40 <@dpeg> Enchantment split
12:40 < ortoslon> awesome!
12:40 <@dpeg> is what I have
12:41 <@dpeg> I said "0.7" so often in the recent past, that I am afraid of losing some ideas :)
12:42 <+due> hehe
12:43 <+due> dpeg: butchering change
12:44 <@dpeg> yes, probably
12:44 <+greensnark> dpeg: Let's do an early 0.6 :P
12:44 <@dpeg> greensnark: I am writing the 0.6 mail, too.
12:44 <@dpeg> AC nerf :|
12:44 <+greensnark> There were people in ##crawl expressing the opinion that Crawl would remain in perpetual "development" mode :P
12:44 <@dpeg> WHAT?
12:44 <+greensnark> Ok, one person :)
12:45 <@dpeg> Send them to #nethack, quick!
12:45 <+due> I don't follow ##crawl at the minute.
12:45 <+due> Too annoying. :)
12:45 <@dpeg> yes
12:45 <+due> dpeg: halfling changes for 0.7
12:45 <+due> dpeg: noise changes for 0.7 if matthew/someone can't finish them for 0.6
12:45 <+greensnark> I propose to break saves for the amulet changes.
12:45 <+due> dpeg: class reforms
12:46 <+greensnark> Can we make amulet of Faith increase Xom interventions?
12:46 <+due> greensnark: Can you remove that shim for marvin's permapig?
12:46 <+greensnark> And increase the chance of divine saves?
12:46 <@dpeg> greensnark: sure!
12:46 <+greensnark> Like good gods' protection from harm
12:46 < Twinge> dpeg: Rebalancing weapons
12:46 <@dpeg> Twinge: too broad
12:46 <+greensnark> This laptop compiles so slowly :/
12:46 <+due> I grep'd 0\.7 in my log :)
12:46 <@dpeg> This is like 0.2's "combat system overhaul"
12:47 < Twinge> dpeg: Re-doing the entire weapons formula and system to make enchants and base damage line up, accuracy more relevant, and weapons types more diversified.
12:47 <@dpeg> greensnark: is that the laptop which "can run circles around the workstation" (your words)?
12:47 < purge> combine short and long blades into one skill?
12:47 <+due> dpeg: more interesting summoning spells...
12:47 <@dpeg> Twinge: out of the question
12:47 <+greensnark> dpeg: I think I stated it the other way around :P
12:47 <+greensnark> My desktop builds almost 10 times faster
12:47 <@dpeg> greensnark: ah, perhaps "the laptop can crawl circles around the desktop" :)
12:48 <@dpeg> Twinge: for references, check 4.1 development
12:48 < Twinge> Why's that?  I know Eranon was interesting in fixing them in that fashion as well
12:48 <@dpeg> Eronarn is not a developer -- which means he is more radical in certain aspects
12:48 <+due> dpeg: apt changes got listed as a possible 0.7 target, staged instead of numerical.
12:48 <@dpeg> We won't bury DCSS just yet.
12:48 <@dpeg> due: ah ja!
12:49 < Twinge> Sure, but it is a rather awkward system that clearly needs at least a partial overhaul.
12:49 <+due> dpeg: new hive...
12:49 <@dpeg> Twinge: "needs an overhaul" is not good enough. The system is huge.
12:49 <@dpeg> due: already have that
12:49 <+due> Twinge: An overhaul is not easy.
12:49 <+due> dpeg: Ah, thought you might
12:50 <+due> dpeg: monster vs player speed
12:50 < Twinge> Nod.  I imagine it isn't easy.  Andthat it'd probably be easiest to rebuild it from the ground up.  Which, obviously, isn't easy either!  0.8 then? ;)
12:51 <+due> dpeg: Something about multi-school casting as an 0.7 target.
12:51 <+due> Twinge: Rebuilding is impossible for exactly the same reasons that the "please rewrite your code base" Fr is impossible.
12:51 < Twinge> Hehe.
12:51 <+due> Betternow with git, though.
12:52 <+due> dpeg: That's as many as I could find.
12:52 <@dpeg> thanks everyone
12:52 <+due> dpeg: Light/heavy armour differentiation? Or is that 0.6+AC nerf?
12:52 <@dpeg> Twinge: the main Crawl branch (4.2) died because everything was rewritten from scratch. Resulting in good code and broken balance.
12:52 <@dpeg> due: that is 0.6.
12:52 <+due> Ah, okay.
12:52 < Twinge> Ah.
12:53 <+due> You cannot rewrite crawl.
12:53 < Twinge> Well, right now the answer to the question "what weapon should I use?" is "the one with the highest base damage", and clearly that's subpar; that's the biggest issue probably.  
12:53 <@dpeg> Won't ship 0.6 without it. We owe the Mountain Dwarves this.
12:53 <+greensnark> Let's not even talk about the effort to completely rearchitect Crawl in OO C++ called Crawl 5.0 :)
12:53 <+due> Half of the stuff that "works properly" now only does so because of breaks.
12:53 <@dpeg> Twinge: we know, it's highly unsatisfactory.
12:53 <@dpeg> greensnark: two commits? :)
12:53 <+greensnark> I didn't actually check how many commits :)
12:53 <+due> Missing breaks in cases, etc.
12:53 < Twinge> due: Failure.
12:53 <@dpeg> Twinge: but I think that we (or at least I) realised that numbers alone cannot achieve proper weapon differentiation.
12:54 < Twinge> Numbers CAN do a lot -- but the formula backend has to support them doing a lot.
12:54 <+due> Numbers versus flavour ):
12:54 <+due> *:)
12:54 <+greensnark> http://sourceforge.net/projects/crawl5/
12:54 <+greensnark> Look and weep
12:54 <+due> Who was responsible fo rthat?
12:54 <+greensnark> Jesse Jones
12:55 <+due> Ah.
12:55 <+due> Don't recognise the name.
12:55 < Twinge> If the formulas were a better fit, there could be a lot more differentiation with simply the numbers/options currently available.  Maybe still not as much as desired, but significantly more than there is now
12:55 <+greensnark> Look at CREDITS.txt :)
12:55 < syllogism> "Fixed a mis-spelled word.
12:55 < syllogism> good start
12:56 <+due> Heh.
12:56 < syllogism> (changes.txt)
12:56 < Twinge> But shrug.  Sounds like an even bigger mess than I thought it was.
12:56 <+greensnark> And people still occasionally file DCSS bugs there :P
12:56 <@dpeg> whoa
12:56 <+due> Heh, really?
12:57 <+greensnark> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2822443&group_id=51359&atid=463000
12:57 <@dpeg> Twinge: I think you greatly underestimate the proportions of that target. :)
12:57 < syllogism> another reason to release 6.0 :P
12:58 < Twinge> dpeg: Probably!  I'm just confident that I could balance a new system well, so I'd be happy to see it in place ;)  I guess I could try deciphering the current mess and seeing if I can come u with anything clever to better use the current stuff...
12:58 <+due> Twinge: If you can write a step-by-step guide, it would be appreciated. ;)
12:59 < Twinge> due: Absolutely no promises!  I've seen some of it and know it is frightening...
12:59 <+due> Yup.
13:00 <+due> I'd give you a map before you head off but... yeah,there isn't one.
13:00 < Twinge> Anyway, bedworld.
13:00 < syllogism> the new lair layouts are cool
13:00 <@dpeg> yes
13:00 <+due> Yes, they look great.
13:00 <@dpeg> no more rectangular map!
13:00 <+due> I'm playing with Vaults when I should be doing Troves :)
13:00 <+greensnark> Ooh, I must play a game
13:00 <@dpeg> !due!
13:00 <+greensnark> master is so easy that practically every character hits Lair :P
13:01  * dpeg ties due to a trove, using a trefoil knot.
13:01 <@dpeg> greensnark: sure?
13:01  * due puts on wizard hat and robe, uses blink to escape.
13:01 <@dpeg> greensnark: should we nerf something?
13:01 <+due> greensnark: We'll add oklobyaktaurs for you.
13:01 <@dpeg> we nerfed so much, actually
13:02 <+due> We've nerfed a hell of a lot.
13:02 <@dpeg> The nerf of it!
13:02 < syllogism> by still has a boring old lair layout :(
13:03 <+due> by could probably transfer save and get new lair for the rest of it?
13:04 <@dpeg> 84 BRs on Mantis alone :/
13:04 <+due> :)
13:04 <+due> oh, greensnark!
13:04 < syllogism> most of them aren't bug reports :P
13:05 <+due> greensnark: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=102
13:08 <@dpeg> syllogism: the 84 are 
13:09 < syllogism> dpeg: as in many of them aren't bugs
13:09 < st_> is lair ready for a special ending now that it's got a new layout/stronger concept?
13:09 < syllogism> not yet, there should be
13:09 < syllogism> sometimes
13:10 <+due> st_: I want the ruined castle of the Jungle Lord. <3
13:10 <+due> Or the Conlave of Beasts.
13:10 <+Zaba> ruined castle, hm
13:11 <+due> yess.
13:11  * due rewriting city-level in lua.
13:14 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"]
13:15 <@dpeg> due has a knack for setting up new construction sites. He shares this trait with zelgadis :)
13:15 <@dpeg> rax and I want to do Lair:$ levels at some time.
13:15 <+due> I knoow.
13:16 -!- ais523 [n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:16 <+Zaba> hmm
13:16 <@dpeg> Zaba: yes?
13:16 <+greensnark> due: I'll take a look after I'm through with amulets
13:17 <+due> greensnark: <3
13:17 <+Zaba> I wonder what themes Lair:$ vaults could use.
13:17 <@dpeg> did anyone get my 0.6 mail?
13:17 <@dpeg> Zaba: could be a large lake, or a forest
13:17 <+due> I have not yet.
13:17 <+due> Lakes good!
13:18 <+due> Forests also good, with little huts and jackal packs searching through the tree
13:18 <@dpeg> but... not urgent
13:18 <@dpeg> Must...not...add...new...targets...on...a...daily...basis
13:18 <+greensnark> dpeg: Faith + Stasis, right?
13:19 <+greensnark> Does the wiki page cover everything involved?
13:19 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes. Jude also supports Perception. 
13:19 <@dpeg> yes, I think so
13:19 <@dpeg> as I said, more input/thought would help
13:19 <@dpeg> eg does Perception auto-id?
13:20 <+due> And control and decay, actualy.
13:21 <+greensnark> Decay should also make stat-restore slower, increase duration of sickness and reduce hp regen rate
13:22 <@dpeg> greensnark: with the latter, it would autoid however
13:23 <+greensnark> Why would it autoid?
13:24 <+greensnark> Oh, as a counterpart to regen, you mean?
13:24 <@dpeg> b/c the slower hp regen rate is obvious
13:24 <@dpeg> yes
13:24 <@dpeg> so simply use the other two
13:24 < syllogism> inaccuracy is obvious too and it doesn't autoid
13:25 <@dpeg> there is a proposal to change inaccuracy
13:25 <+greensnark> Ok, I'll do Faith and Stasis and leave the rest up for discussion
13:25 <+greensnark> Presumably even Faith and Stasis will need adjustment
13:25 < syllogism> will it really increase piety gain
13:26 < syllogism> Faith that is, and will it be +50%
13:26 <+greensnark> I was thinking +33%
13:26 < syllogism> seems more reasonable
13:26 <+greensnark> Oh, the wiki specifies 50%
13:27 <+greensnark> It was so short I uh skipped past :P
13:27 <+greensnark> But +33% + more interesting effects
13:27 <+greensnark> I proposed:
13:27 <+greensnark>     - Increase frequency of Xom effects.
13:27 <+greensnark>     - Increase frequency of divine retribution, makes penance decline
13:27 <+greensnark>       more slowly.
13:27 <+greensnark>     - Increase effects such as life saving of good gods.
13:27 <+greensnark> I should add that to the wiki
13:28 < syllogism> I'm not sure if I understand the divine retribution part, is it for flavor?
13:28 <+greensnark> The amulet keeps gods interested in you
13:28 <+greensnark> And if they hate your guts
13:28 <@dpeg> yes, a good idea
13:28 <+greensnark> They'll remember you longer
13:28 -!- AceTetra [n=AceTetra@97-126-65-38.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
13:28 < Vandal> A divine lightning rod ? :D
13:28 < ais523> would be rather a no-brainer to take it off while your god was angry, if you knew what it did
13:28 < syllogism> well I mean you'd just take it off once someone spoils it to you
13:29 <+greensnark> syllogism: Well, what if you just switched gods and wanted to use it to train new god piety :P
13:29 <+due> the effects should linger for XYZ turns.
13:29 < syllogism> greensnark: well true :P
13:29 <+greensnark> That's what this aims to prevent
13:29 <+due> Could, rather than should.
13:29 < syllogism> good point
13:30 < ais523> are all amulets going to have gourmand-style rampup?
13:30 <@dpeg> no
13:30 < Vandal> it is a good mechanic though for amus that have such drastic effects
13:31 <+due> But can be overused.
13:32 < syllogism> the amulet might make more gods scummable
13:32 < syllogism> or farmable
13:32 <+greensnark> Yeah
13:32 <+greensnark> Especially Okie
13:32 <@dpeg> disable Oki for 0.6?
13:32 < Vandal> heh
13:33 < syllogism> you can farm trog like that too :P
13:33 < syllogism> maybe
13:33 <+due> Remove Oka's weapon gifts.
13:33 <+greensnark> Yeah
13:33 <+greensnark> Just dig a corridor, wait for Trog to send stuff
13:33 <+greensnark> Assuming you can handle one berserk stone giant
13:34 <@dpeg> what about this: piety loss is also magnified and removing the amulet is a piety hit?
13:34 < syllogism> oh I didn't mean that, those are marked summoned
13:34 <+greensnark> Oh, they are?
13:34 <+greensnark> Why are Okie's agents not summoned?
13:34 < syllogism> no idea
13:34 <+greensnark> Should fix that
13:34 <@dpeg> yes
13:35 < purge> holy crap @ napkins game
13:35 < purge> 5 oklobs
13:35 < Napkin> omg indeed!
13:35 < Napkin> and shot on first sight :-O
13:35 < syllogism> hmm polystysus seems to have the old lair too :(
13:36 <+greensnark> A lot of players are playing old version
13:36 <+due> Hm, city level just got more complicated.
13:36 <+greensnark> How thorough do we want rSlow removal
13:36 <@dpeg> greensnark: also no more as a randart property
13:37 <+greensnark> So randart amulets can be rSlow?
13:37 <@dpeg> no!
13:37 <+greensnark> Oh, ok, misread you
13:37 <+greensnark> So complete removal, cool
13:37 <+due> ... God, some of this is horrible.
13:37 <+greensnark> That's easiest :P
13:37 < Napkin> lol:
13:37 < Napkin> -You climb downwards.
13:37 < Napkin>  Level annotation: exclusions: oklob plant, oklob plant, oklob plant, oklob plant, and oklob plant
13:37 < Napkin> one comma too much :-P
13:37 <+due> There's a function that iterates over the outline of a room and tries to place a door.
13:38 -!- |eith| is now known as eith
13:39 < syllogism> so can you berserk while wearing statis? It just won't haste/slow you? :P
13:40 <+greensnark> Good question :P
13:40 <+greensnark> I was actually expecting it to become a staple amulet for places where giant eyeballs hang out
13:40 <@dpeg> Stasis should prevent all berserk, I guess.
13:40 <+greensnark> Which would make the amulet choice amusing in Slime
13:41 < syllogism> that makes it a bit like clarity then
13:41 <+greensnark> Yeah
13:41 <@dpeg> but only a bit
13:41 <+greensnark> But it would block all berserk
13:41 <@dpeg> worse problem: what if you berserk first, and then wear Stasis?
13:41 < syllogism> you cant
13:41 < syllogism> or can you?
13:42 <@dpeg> good point
13:42 < syllogism> I dont know if you can wear items while zerk
13:42 <@dpeg> no, after
13:42 <+greensnark> Can't
13:42 < syllogism> oh you mean while slowed?
13:42 <+greensnark> Statsis would not effect existing Slowness
13:42 <@dpeg> you cannot wear stasis if slow/hasted
13:42 < syllogism> it shouldn't cancel that
13:42 <@dpeg> or that
13:42 <+greensnark> Or existing Haste
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13:43 <+greensnark> Do we have consensus on "oFaith
13:43 <+greensnark> Better piety gain (30%), more Xom effects, more chance of good god saves?
13:43 <@dpeg> yes
13:43 <+greensnark> We'll skip the penance interactions because players will probably farm it?
13:43 <@dpeg> but also higher piety loss
13:43 < syllogism> greensnark: no, I didn't actually mean that
13:43 <+greensnark> Faster piety decay?
13:44 < syllogism> I meant they can farm piety
13:44 <+greensnark> Yeah, faster piety decay is good
13:44 <+greensnark> The god is keeping an interested eye on you, you don't want to bore them :P
13:44 <@dpeg> greensnark: do the same as for gain: whenever piety decays, have same chance to decay more
13:44 <+greensnark> But not much faster, or nobody will use it :P
13:44 < syllogism> maybe not faster for xom?
13:45 <+greensnark> dpeg: But that makes it of questionable use, right?
13:45 <@dpeg> for Xom, I would make his random walk faster -- it is exactly the same mechanic as for all other fods
13:45 <@dpeg> greensnark: it is scummable anyway
13:45 <+greensnark> But if we make piety decay faster, players will start swapping in the amulet for killing things
13:46 < syllogism> +30% might not be enough to scum
13:46 < syllogism> or can you already scum okawaru? Don't remember if stab's bot dit that
13:46 <@dpeg> so we probably need a mechanism like this: piety hit when removing the amulet. Or after removing, the god still watches you for some (random) tmie
13:47 <+greensnark> dpeg: But I'm unsure if players will find the amulet useful at all if it causes piety decay
13:47 <+greensnark> *faster piety decay
13:47 <+greensnark> I probably wouldn't :P
13:48 < syllogism> yeah I don't like playing fast
13:48 < cbus> nice fo rneme
13:48 < cbus> put the amulet on, sacrifice all the loot in the dungeon
13:48 < cbus> take it off
13:48 < cbus> or zin with money sacrifice
13:48 <@dpeg> greensnark: okay, so only a piety hit for taking it off
13:49 <+greensnark> Ok
13:49 <+greensnark> A duration of faster piety decay or an immediate piety hit?
13:49 <+greensnark> "You feel Trog lose interest"
13:49 <+greensnark> Boom!
13:49 <@dpeg> yes
13:49 <+greensnark> Ok, immediate hit with care taken not to excommunicate the player
13:49 < cbus> make sure you can't get into penance or excommunicated by it
13:50 < cbus> (thinking of early game when you try on stuff randomly)
13:51 < syllogism> maybe the sphinx legion in tomb should come with a mummy priest or two now so the amulet of stasis isn't the amulet of sphinx slaying :P
13:51 < syllogism> though i guess smiting still hurts when you cant haste
13:51 < syllogism> and ring of mr kind of already does that
13:51 <@dpeg> syllogism: Why? Stasis would still help there.
13:53 < cbus> conservation might need changing btw, its the no-brains amulet that everyone ends up using in the end game
13:54 < syllogism> I don't
13:54 < cbus> I do, potions are nice
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13:55 <@dpeg> cbus: less no-brainer than expected (surprised me too)
13:55 <+greensnark> Agreed, conservation is overrated :)
13:55 < cbus> heh
13:55 < cbus> guess I'm the only one that like my consumables consumable :)
13:55 < syllogism> i always finish the game with lots of stuff left over
13:55 <+greensnark> cbus: Yeah, I don't know why you're arguing for a nerf for something you like :P
13:58  * greensnark will be back after walking dog.
13:59 < syllogism> <3 dogs
13:59 <+due> ack come back
13:59 < syllogism> corgitaurs
14:02 <@dpeg> greensnark: thanks for commit!
14:02 <+due> New branch yay!
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14:20 <@dpeg> someone please comment on the 0.6 mail
14:20 <@dpeg> I feel I'm writing them into the void
14:20 <+due> I will
14:22 < syllogism> maybe stasis should cancel haste after all
14:25 <+due> But tomorrow
14:25 <+due> Sleep now, night.
14:28 < syllogism> I never realized how worthless jellyfish are
14:29 < syllogism> after the stat death overhaul draining attacks should probably work even if you take no damage
14:29 < syllogism> as long as the attack hits
14:30 < syllogism> or at least have a chance of working
14:38 <+due> enne, greensnark: http://sprunge.us/TWBI I am obviously missing something pretty major; nothing I try can make it work, and I am too tired now, hence give up :)
14:40 <+greensnark> syllogism: Yeah, the idea was to accelerate the countdown to instadeath for draining attacks with the stat at 0
14:41 < syllogism> zipcode got like 4k gold from acquirement, I think I'll always be acquiring gold from now on :P
14:42 <+greensnark> Someone gave a very generous formula :P
14:42 <+greensnark> Apparently dpeg is all velvet hand under the iron glove :)
14:43 < syllogism> When is amulet of faith going into master, I kind of want to play once that's in :P
14:43 <+greensnark> Just going to start on it now :P
14:44 <+greensnark> I'll have to add both, then merge into master once they look non-flaky, so probably not until tomorrow :P
14:44 < syllogism> though these constant compatibility breaks deter me
14:44 < Mu_> will an amulet of faith make sacrifices to nemelex count double for deck purposes? :s
14:44 <+greensnark> I know :P
14:45 <+greensnark> Whenever there's a new version and I can't upgrade my save, I feel like visting Shoal:5 right away :P
14:45 < syllogism> I didn't even do tomb last game :P
14:45 < syllogism> or v8
14:48 <+greensnark> Should "oFaith auto-id?
14:49 <+greensnark> If it doesn't auto-id, it'll presumably not have a piety penalty for removal
14:49 < syllogism> definitely not if you are a pagan
14:49 <+greensnark> So I'm inclined to make it auto-id 
14:49 <+greensnark> Yeah, no if not religious, but if you pick a god with the amulet on, it'll id at that point
14:49 < syllogism> it has to yes
14:49 < syllogism> or maybe when you take it off :P
14:50 <+greensnark> :P
14:56 < syllogism> This sounds like a fun bug http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=118#post370809634
14:57 < syllogism> it's not reproducable though, maybe it was an old save file
15:04 < Napkin> third book! with blink, greensnark :D
15:06 < Napkin> what is lord sloth talking about?
15:07 < Napkin> since there are multiple versions of trunk installed on CDO I haven't heard of a single save-game being broeken - did I miss something?
15:22 < syllogism> napkin: well as in you'll be tempted to restart to try the new things
15:22 < Napkin> ah
15:57 < Napkin> hmm, weights are not aligned properly in the ctrl+x screen
15:58 < Napkin> http://ipxserver.dyndns.org/misc/rogue/shot-110.png
16:06 < syllogism> greensnark: someone noticed snapping turtles are barely worth more xp than an ogre :P
16:07 <+greensnark> Oh yes, I need to turn the xp modifier knobs ;P
16:07 <+greensnark> I got a little enthusiastic trying to keep Shoals xp within 2x of Swamp :P
16:07 <+greensnark> And I didn't even succeed :P
16:07 <+greensnark> Pretty close to 2.5x of Swamp though :P
16:08 < TGW> it would give less exp if you removed javelineers
16:08 <+greensnark> Hehe
16:08 < TGW> just saying
16:08 <+by> just put more hydras in swamp?
16:08 <+greensnark> I like that
16:09 < Ashenzari> Weights not aligned correctly on "Visible Items/Features" screen (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=382) by Napkin
16:14 < MarvinPA> i thought swamp was meant to have xp and shoals loot? or is it the other way round?
16:14 < MarvinPA> or does swamp just have neither and suck? :P
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16:19 <+Zaba_> MarvinPA, swamp's getting a revamp, too, just not for 0.6
16:19 < MarvinPA> does that mean swamp will be worse than shoals in every way in 0.6, then? :(
16:19 <+greensnark> No
16:19 <+greensnark> It will be a lot easier to get the Swamp rune :P
16:20 < MarvinPA> hah, that is a good point
16:20 < MarvinPA> yeah, fair enough
16:20 <+by> how does shoals xp compare to the snake pit?
16:20 <+greensnark> About 1.3x Snake Pit xp
16:20 <+greensnark> But I haven't checked since the testudine invasion
16:21 <+by> could choose two out of the three maybe?
16:21 <+greensnark> Indeed
16:21 <+by> or all three and require four runes?
16:21 <+by> no, too much mid-game xp then
16:21 <+greensnark> And 4 is not a Crawl number :)
16:21 < MarvinPA> it seems odd that so many of the branches are centred around the lair
16:22 < MarvinPA> it'd be nice to have another branch in the dungeon between vaults and zot, it seems a bit empty to me
16:22 <+by> greensnark: how about cutting shoals to three levels?
16:22 < MarvinPA> (in the two or three times i've ever actually made it that far)
16:23 <+greensnark> by: I've considered it
16:23 <+greensnark> The early Shoals levels go by pretty quick though
16:24 < eith> MarvinPA: thats part of the mid game being to long problem
16:25 <+greensnark> !tv DrPraetor Shoal
16:25 < Henzell> 3. DrPraetor, XL14 MfTm, T:22658 requested for FooTV.
16:25 < MarvinPA> yeah, i guess so
16:27 <+greensnark> LOL Rupert
16:27 < eith> that was a good one :)
16:27 <+greensnark> I didn't even see Rupert enter the picture :P
16:27 <+greensnark> !tv DrPraetor Shoal
16:27 < Henzell> 3. DrPraetor, XL14 MfTm, T:22658 requested for FooTV.
16:29 < syllogism> wait what
16:29 < syllogism> !log drpraetor
16:29 < Henzell> 3788. DrPraetor, XL14 MfTm, T:22658: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/DrPraetor/morgue-DrPraetor-20100110-152315.txt
16:29 <+by> !lg DrPraetor x=dam
16:29 < Henzell> 3788. [dam=27] DrPraetor the Martial Artist (L14 MfTm), worshipper of Makhleb, slain by a snapping turtle on Shoal:2 on 2010-01-10, with 47492 points after 22658 turns and 2:52:59.
16:30 <+greensnark> Rupert paralysed him from across the pond
16:43 <+greensnark> !tv Warson
16:43 < Henzell> 268. Warson, XL20 MiBe, T:70895 requested for FooTV.
16:44 <+greensnark> Naught naughty Eino :P
16:47 < MarvinPA> hmm, what would be a good message to display when you wield a weapon of pain with no necromancy skill?
16:48 < MarvinPA> i'm taking a look at mantis issues that i might be able to figure out how to fix with my incredibly limited ability :P
16:48 <+sorear> You have a feeling of great ineptitude.
16:49 < MarvinPA> i put "you feel a numb sensation" at the moment but i guess that implies you're actively disadvantaged by it, when really it just has no effect
16:49 < syllogism> he had a pretty sick randart crystal plate too
16:52 <+greensnark> Does ring of lev warn that levitation cannot be renewed until expired?
16:52 <+greensnark> Players seem to keep having "Oops!" moments
16:54 < syllogism> he would have been fine had he used his ring first instead of the potion
17:00 < syllogism> he doesn't know how to read messages :(
17:00 < syllogism> maybe the notification should be more intrusive
17:04 <+sorear> On ancardia I have messages showing up instantly in a big yellow box that you have to press # to dismiss
17:04 <+sorear> Originally I was using ~, but then I got hate mail from someone complaining that their keyboard didn't have a tilde and it was impossible for them to dismiss messages :D
17:04 <+Zaba_> heh
17:05 < syllogism> greensnark: are you updating foosplat and co or why are they down
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17:15 <+greensnark> syllogism: Box is almost out of space, I was deleting all the cached ttyrecs and stuff
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17:55 < TGW> is there a valid reason to give kobold the "sorry, you're a carnivore" message when hitting e?
17:56 < TGW> I'm pretty sure most people know that and would rather eat a chunk than endure a needless force_more
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17:59 < ais523> hmm... rumour's going around on the Crawl LP that you're getting rid of Swamp entirely, in favour of the Shoals
18:00 < ais523> is that really the case, or are they just deluded?
18:00 <+greensnark> That's not the case
18:00 <+greensnark> Swamp is temporarily disabled in trunk to direct extra testing to Shoals
18:00 <+greensnark> And only for dgl builds, i.e. cdo
18:01 < ais523> ah, aha
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18:14 <+doy> dpeg: i didn't touch doors at all
18:14 < Henzell> doy: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
18:15 <+doy> and some corridors to tend to survive
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18:15 <+doy> we could tweak the plant generation to tend to grow more in places that used to be corridors, if we want to preserve that a bit more
18:16 < TGW> is the lair thing on cdo?
18:16 <+doy> and yeah, for the plant clumps i just did the simplest possible thing that looked decent, we could certainly tweak it
18:16 <+doy> TGW: yes
18:16 < TGW> awesome
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18:17 <+doy> dpeg: i actually think that doors didn't used to be that common in lair anyway, they only show up in rooms+corridors layouts
18:18 <+doy> the reason there aren't that many in my screenshots are because only one of the levels that was generated was a rooms+corridors layout
18:18 < TGW> doors are kind of overpowered in lair
18:18 <+doy> but i didn't tweak the layout choice at all except to remove spotty_level
18:18 <+doy> which should increase the chances of rooms+corridors, if anything
18:23 < MarvinPA> oh hah, jiyva actually says "slime for the slime god" when you load a save
18:23 < Napkin> omg.. Snorg
18:23 < Napkin> oops, sorry
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18:27 < Mu_> has rSlow been removed yet?
18:29 -!- Zaba_ is now known as Zaba
18:30 < Twinge_> Hail, Cryptic.
18:30 < Twinge_> Mu: No, not yet.
18:30 < Cryp71c> Twinge_, sup :) forget to identify?
18:31 < Mu_> ty Twinge_
18:31 < Napkin> Gretel currently filters these uniques from announcing: Terence Jessica Blork Edmund Psyche Donald Snorg Michael
18:31 < Napkin> Should that be changed?
18:32 <+greensnark> Maybe we should just remove the filters?
18:32 <+greensnark> Yeah, Snorg is pretty strong now
18:32 < Twinge_> Cryptic: Someone actually has my name registered.  It's another week or so-ish before it expires
18:33 < Napkin> Michael no longer exists..
18:33 < Napkin> ##crawl says Jessica can get pretty nasty too, now
18:33 < Twinge_> Blork can be strong-ish too at times
18:33 < Napkin> I'd say remove
18:33 < Napkin> Terence and Edmund can be quite weak
18:33 < Twinge_> It's not like it even lists Wayne either, hehe
18:34 < Napkin> But I'm not the one who can decide..
18:34 < Twinge_> !deathsby Terence
18:34 < Henzell> No games for Terence.
18:34 < Twinge_> !deathsby Wayne
18:34 < Henzell> No games for Wayne.
18:34 < Twinge_> oh, er
18:34 < Twinge_> !killsby Terence
18:34 < Henzell> 3408 games for * (ckiller=Terence): 46x KiloByte, 44x 78291, 42x crawlie, 37x heteroy, 36x DashNine, 26x Archibald, 25x Johan, 24x Vesto, 23x simul, 22x chilliwack, 21x Nikinyo, 21x poop, 21x ekaterin, 21x Ping, 21x Dalarist, 20x mr0t, 20x sorear, 19x aori, 19x Anym, 19x Stormfox, 17x TGW, 16x Radicchio, 16x Keolah, 15x fiyawerx, 15x Leissi, 15x Chog, 15x bookofjude, 15x adagio, 15x yap, 15x Crack...
18:34 < Napkin> !killsby Psyche
18:34 < Henzell> 142 games for * (ckiller=Psyche): 3x IronRobin, 3x heteroy, 3x aristotle, 3x Grimm, 3x thevalrus, 2x raxohol, 2x tapicell, 2x LexAckson, 2x rob, 2x ogaz, 2x 78291, 2x Temoid, 2x poop, 2x bookofjude, 2x Radicchio, 2x Voiks, 2x splat, 2x meneril, 2x barnex, 2x Saxifrage, 1x jmr, 1x gunofdis, 1x Nexos, 1x dpeg, 1x wastrel, 1x Inde, 1x greywolf, 1x drugrobin, 1x Jhav, 1x brennon, 1x N78291, 1x Archiba...
18:35 < Twinge_> Might as well just remove the filter
18:35 < TGW> I think ijyb should be guaranteed an item
18:35 < Napkin> !killsby Donald
18:35 < Henzell> 10 games for * (ckiller=Donald): 1x MrPeeps, 1x Sebi, 1x Eronarn, 1x wolverian, 1x Nexos, 1x coweater, 1x Toad, 1x yap, 1x splat, 1x Manslay
18:35 < Twinge_> !killsby Blork the Orc
18:35 < Henzell> No games for * (ckiller=Blork the Orc).
18:35 < Twinge_> !killsby Blork
18:35 < Henzell> 899 games for * (ckiller=Blork): 15x 78291, 14x KiloByte, 12x heteroy, 10x poop, 9x Nexos, 8x Grimm, 7x crawlie, 7x splat, 7x Eifeltrampel, 7x mr0t, 7x Lemuel, 7x sorear, 7x TGW, 7x chilliwack, 7x Archibald, 7x Ping, 6x adagio, 6x yap, 6x zyrkx, 6x Vesto, 6x simul, 6x ekaterin, 5x penguin, 5x Pixels, 5x Radicchio, 5x Leibowitz, 5x murklins, 5x Temoid, 5x randart, 5x Tenaya, 5x aristotle, 5x DashNi...
18:35 < TGW> didn't terence get a massive equipment buff?
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18:37 < Napkin> oh, greensnark! You made Gretell join here? <3
18:37 < Napkin> Didn't realize :-$
18:38 <+greensnark> For @??
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18:47 <+doy> hmmm, i wonder
18:48 <+doy> do doors get created later on in the process
18:49 <+doy> aha
18:49 <+doy> yes, they do
18:49 <+doy> that's why door generation was reduced so much
18:50 < CIA-81> greensnark amulet-refactoring * r5871154a2e85 /crawl-ref/source/ (10 files in 2 dirs): Amulet of Faith, mark I.
18:50 <+doy> hmmm
18:50 <+doy> i wonder
18:51 <+doy> should the ruin_level stuff also ruin vaults?
18:51 <+doy> are there vaults that this would be a particularly bad idea for?
18:51 <+greensnark> You can ruin vaults by default, but check for a mask such as MMT_NO_RUIN that vaults can use if they don't want to be messed with
18:52 <+doy> sounds reasonable
18:52 <+doy> hmmm
18:52 <+greensnark> But I guess a lot of vaults wouldn't want to be ruined 
18:52 <+greensnark> I can't think of many Lair vaults, but there was that wizard + simulacra vault 
18:53 <+greensnark> Which wouldn't be good if it were broken open
18:53 <+doy> yeah, i guess vaults like that would be problematic
18:53 <+doy> i'll leave them unruined for now
18:53 <+doy> we can look into it later if it looks particularly bad
18:53 <+greensnark> Lair vaults should be designed to fit in
18:54 <+doy> !messages
18:54 < Henzell> (1/2) dpeg said (6h 32m 31s ago): The new Lair levels look very good! Two comments: (1) bushes! (2) The plant cluster look too much like 3x3 -- need more fractalisation. (3) Are doors now gone? Lair is the branch where doors help most, tactically.
18:54 <+doy> !messages
18:54 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (6h 29m 11s ago): More comments: your change is a double nerf to Lair (no more room & corridors; no more doors). I am fine with this nerf, and it fits that we made Lair harder anyway. We should just be honest about it. Next, what about placing the odd tree as well? And some walls could be coloured green (moss).
18:56 < Twinge_> greensnark: Maybe make the default to not ruin vaults, and instead have a lfah that can be set to allow it?
18:56 < Twinge_> s/lfha/flag
18:58 < CIA-81> doy * r88bc1cd2f728 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: ruin lair levels after doors are placed
18:58 <+greensnark> doy: You've ruined Lair :/
18:58 <+greensnark> :P
18:58 <+doy> d:
18:58 < Twinge_> Wait, it sounded like a good idea that it happened before doors were placed, so fewer doors were generated, and the ones that were generated still made sense??
18:59 <+greensnark> Twinge_ has a point
18:59 <+greensnark> Will the ruins leave freestanding doors?
18:59  * greensnark hastes self off to bed.
19:00 <+doy> hmmm, probably a couple
19:00 <+doy> can make a pass to clear those out though
19:00 <+doy> i think leaving some doors that don't really make sense in place is good for the 'ruined' feel though
19:01 <+doy> since the idea is that it used to be an actual dungeon level
19:01 <+doy> and has deteriorated
19:01 < TGW> oh hey, amulet of faith!
19:01 <+doy> so the door placement should take the original level into account
19:01 < Twinge_> Perhaps a few, but not too many.  Maybe that 2nd pass removes all freestanding, and say... 70% of all doors with only one wall attached?
19:01 <+doy> yeah, that sounds reasonable
19:01 < Cryp71c> TGW, how do you mean, Ijyb guaranteed an item?
19:02 < TGW> cryp71c: wand, potion
19:02 <+doy> or just give doors the same chance as walls to be removed
19:02 <+doy> that sounds like a better idea
19:02 <+doy> hmmm
19:02 <+doy> maybe slightly less
19:02 < TGW> because otherwise he's just a tough goblin that sucks as much
19:02 < Cryp71c> TGW, eh, idk...he can be pretty tough when he spawns early on, I think I've seen him as early as 2-3
19:03 < Twinge_> @??Ijyb
19:03 < Gretell> Ijyb (g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 28 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 4 | Res: magic(12) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 25.
19:03 < Twinge_> @??hobgoblin
19:03 < Gretell> hobgoblin (g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-7 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 5 | Res: magic(1) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2.
19:03 < Twinge_> 28 HP is a LOT that early
19:03 < Cryp71c> Yeah
19:03 < Cryp71c> Plus he wields a club or something
19:03 < Cryp71c> and his damage shoots to 12
19:03 < Cryp71c> and it can get pretty ugly
19:03 < TGW> uniques should not follow the beetle model of toughness
19:04 < TGW> they're supposed to be actually interesting threats
19:04 < Twinge_> Maybe... give him a guaranteed item if he spawns on D5 or later?
19:04 < ogaz> he doesn't follow the beetle model because he doesn't go slow
19:04 < TGW> ogaz: "extremely fat things that should never kill you"
19:04 < TGW> like beetles and ijyb
19:05 < ogaz> ogres should never kill you either because you shouldn't engage unless you can win
19:05 < Cryp71c> TGW, ijyb isn't even comparative to a Beetle?
19:05 < Cryp71c> There are huge differences between the two, most notably, speed and equipment.
19:06 < Cryp71c> As an average (or below average) speed, you can't outrun him. Give him a wand and its garanteed death when he spawns on 2-3
19:07 < Cryp71c> Quite a few of the other uniques need to be buffed, because they're trivial
19:07 < Twinge_> @??Wayne
19:07 < TGW> you realize there are very many uniques that are more challenging than wands
19:07 < Gretell> Wayne (@) | Speed: 7 | HD: 17 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 22 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(113) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1246 | Sp: pain, cantrip, smiting, minor healing.
19:07 < Twinge_> TGW: They usually show up later than D:2, though, except for Siggy
19:07 < Cryp71c> TGW, Ijyb is challenging enough (in most cases, for most char types) without a wand.
19:07 < TGW> even jessica
19:07 < TGW> haste, slow, pain
19:07 < Cryp71c> TGW, caster.
19:08 < Cryp71c> She doesn't need a wand.
19:08 < ogaz> jessica got nerfed in 0.6 with pain instead of magic dart
19:08 < Twinge_> TGW: And no HP.  And as much XP as Igyjb now.
19:08 < TGW> twinge: less xp
19:08 < ogaz> she's 25 now
19:08 < Twinge_> @??Jessica
19:08 < Gretell> Jessica (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Flags: evil, spellcaster | Res: magic(4) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 25 | Sp: pain, slow, haste, blink.
19:08 < Twinge_> =)
19:08 -!- Twinge_ is now known as Twinge
19:08 < TGW> @?jessica
19:08 < Gretell> Jessica (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(4) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 4 | Sp: magic dart, slow, haste, blink.
19:08 < TGW> weird
19:09 < Twinge> TGW: My patch for the monster exp tweaks went in a day or two ago
19:09 < TGW> cryp71c: you seem to be missing the point
19:09 < Twinge> If you notice wayne is a more reasonable 1.2k for his pushover status, as opposed to the free XP goldmine he was before
19:10 < TGW> every D:2 unique is as hard as ijyb + wand
19:10 < TGW> and ijyb - wand is trivial and boring
19:10 < Cryp71c> TGW, for fighters, or other melee, high hp chars
19:10 < ogaz> I remember an embarassing vampire who could not kill ijyb
19:11 < Cryp71c> but for everyone else, he is *perfect* in terms of difficulty
19:11 < Cryp71c> since getting caught in melee with him means running around for 150 turns trying to sneak in some damage via spells or other means.
19:11 < Twinge> Yep
19:11 < Cryp71c> D:2 means the PC (likely) has no wands.
19:11 < TGW> cryp71c: gee that's fun and interesting
19:11 < Twinge> I definitely remember having some chars that had major problems with his high HP
19:11 < mr0t> @?wayne
19:11 < Gretell> Wayne (@) | Speed: 7 | HD: 17 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 22 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(113) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2713 | Sp: pain, cantrip, smiting, minor healing.
19:11 < mr0t> jeez, that is a lot of exp
19:12 < Twinge> TGW: I mean, we could change him further or something, so he had a little less HP, or 1 ACinstead of 2, etc.
19:12 < Cryp71c> TGW, the reality is that single monster is better to be balanced than to be 'interesting'
19:12 < Twinge> but jsut giving current Ijyb a guaranteed item seems bad
19:12 < mr0t> how about electric eels, while we're at it? I really think 25 exp or whatever is unreasonable
19:12 < ogaz> ijyb had a potion of speed, which he needed to quaff a potion of blood to survive(at the time blood acted like healing for vampires), and no matter how much he pillardanced afterwards, he simply could not kill ijyb
19:12 < mr0t> maybe 80-120xp
19:12 < ogaz> @??electric eels
19:12 < Twinge> @?electric eel
19:12 < Gretell> unknown monster: "electric eels"
19:12 < Gretell> unknown monster: "electric eel"
19:12 < Twinge> @??electric eel
19:12 < Gretell> electric eel (;) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 1/15 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(12), elec++ | XP: 53.
19:12 < Twinge> @?electrical eel
19:12 < Gretell> electrical eel (;) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 1/15 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(12), elec++ | XP: 28.
19:12 <+doy> Cryp71c: that's not true for uniques, in my opinion
19:12 < TGW> cryp71c: that's not true at all
19:13 < mr0t> esp. because it's hard to kill one unless you have poison or can kill em in 2-3 hits
19:13 < Cryp71c> doy, not for all uniques, certainly. But for a unique which shows up so early on in the dungeon while the PC has very few resources (wands, rods, spells, armor, weapons, etc.) at his disposal
19:13 < TGW> the current "balance" is "he's so fucking annoying to kill that you dance for an hour, but he can't kill you"
19:13 < Cryp71c> It is the unfortuante truth.
19:13 < mr0t> interesting > balance
19:13 < Twinge> They still have low health and can be avoided, mr0t, so I didn't want to boost them too much
19:13 <+doy> Cryp71c: the goal is to teach you when to run
19:13 <+doy> Cryp71c: you don't have to kill the unique the instant you see it
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19:14 < mr0t> ah, I see eels xp *has* been increased. kudos
19:14 < Twinge> mr0t: For about 40 other monsters too :)
19:14 < Twinge> tweaked that is, not increased specifically.  Some up, some down
19:14 < Cryp71c> doy, for an average speed character, encountering ijyb early on usually does mean descending, for most characters, give him a wand or a potion, and that becomes a lot less likely of an option, since D:2-3 typically are single room levels and it may take longer to find (or get to) a downward staircase.
19:15 < mr0t> I don't think that crawl's gameplay should be dictated by balance. I've always seen DCSS as a game where the inherent imbalance is part of what makes it fun
19:15 <+doy> mr0t: i agree
19:15 < TGW> HP 28 -> 18, guarantee something interesting
19:16 < Twinge> mr0t: I see Crawl as a rogue-like based more around being reasonably fair and in the players control (that is, balanced), which is way different than e.g. ADOM or Nethack :P
19:16 < Cryp71c> mr0t, idk if that was dedicated at me or not, but I agree. an entire game cannot be dictated by balance
19:16 <+doy> http://tozt.net/uploads/images/screenshots/crawl/lair-vaults.png
19:16 <+doy> this is a cool effect
19:16 <+doy> (:
19:17 < TGW> is that typical? it seems kind of empty
19:17 < TGW> but that does look cool
19:17 < Twinge> doy: That's before adding the extra pass eh?
19:17 <+doy> TGW: that's a vaults-type level
19:17 <+doy> with big boxes
19:17 < TGW> ah
19:18 <+doy> Twinge: i made doors go through the same logic as walls for being removed, but gave them a chance to resist it
19:18 < Twinge> doy: Still at least remove free-standing doors if you're doing to do that, though.
19:18 <+doy> i don't think we need to remove lone door tiles any more than we need to remove single wall tiles
19:18 < mr0t> twinge: uh, crawl and fair should not be used in the same sentence together :p
19:18 < TGW> ??fair
19:18 < Henzell> fair[1/2]: No, this game isn't fair (and neither is "fair" success). But it was probably your own fault, anyway.
19:19 < Twinge> Doors work by being attached to something ;O
19:19 < mr0t> maybe it's less unfair than it used to be, but compared to say, nethack, pfff
19:19 < mr0t> twinge: yeah, a door frame, which can be freestanding
19:19 <+doy> Twinge: well, i picture a door tile as being a wall with a door in it
19:19 < mr0t> aint ya ever been to a carnival funhouse?
19:19 < mr0t> ??fair[2]
19:19 <+doy> not as a full tile that's entirely a door
19:19 < Henzell> fair[2/2]: < nrook> that's what's so great about Crawl: every time, you don't even have rage at the chance of the heavens to sustain you; you know, with a cold certainty something like that of a priest who has lost his faith in God, that your death was caused by none other than yourself, and that a better man could have avoided it.
19:19 < Twinge> Hmm.  They look silly on the image you jsut linked, to me :P
19:20 <+doy> shrug, i like it
19:20 <+doy> we can get more opinions
19:20 <+doy> (:
19:20 < mr0t> for being included in henzell's learndb, that quote is really, really poorly worded
19:20 < Twinge> mr0t: Yeah, what the learndb says.  Crawl's deaths are almost always your own fault.
19:20 < TGW> could add a check to retain walls adjacent to doors
19:21 < TGW> or, one of them
19:21 < mr0t> it's worded fine for a conversation, but not a quote
19:21 < TGW> more of an aesthetic thing than a realistic one
19:21 <+doy> TGW: that's possible
19:21 < Twinge> Also doy: Why would you give doors an extra chance to resist being ruined?  seems like doors would be more likely to rat/fall apart sooner, not less.
19:21 <+doy> Twinge: gameplay effects, mostly
19:21 < TGW> twinge: in my mind, it reinforces the "there was something here" idea
19:22 < mr0t> s/almost//
19:22 < TGW> seperates it from the cave idea
19:23 < mr0t> I really can't think of any Crawl death that is 100% unavoidable
19:23 < Twinge> TGW: Fair, to some extent.  doy: What gameplay effects?  The doors in your example still aren't really useable :P
19:23 <+doy> Twinge: they can still block los
19:23 <+doy> even if they don't cut off part of the level
19:23 < mr0t> whereas in say, nethack, one out of every however many thousand games you will walk onto a trap first thing
19:23 < TGW> and you can back up into one
19:23 < TGW> minor help against rat swarms!
19:24 < TGW> see the +. / .+ formation in the bottom right?
19:24 < ogaz> mr0t: I had a kobold spawn outside of my only way out of the starting vault with a dagger of distortion while I had no projectiles
19:24 < Twinge> Well, looks like I'm 1vs2 here, but I just keep looking at the 2 freestanding doors in the bottom right and thinking 'that looks silly' ;)
19:24 < TGW> that's a choke point
19:24 < TGW> twinge: those are the most useful ones!
19:26 < TGW> I like my idea, however
19:27 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r7815696da951 /crawl-ref/source/ (rltiles/dc-mon.txt tilepick.cc): Reorder demons by glyph in dc-mon.txt.
19:27 < Twinge> TGW: Removing free-standing doors?  Yeah, doy mentioned it above and I agreed, hehe.
19:27 <+doy> Twinge: no, possibly try to retain walls near doors
19:27 < Twinge> greensnark, rather.
19:27 < TGW> twinge: retaining walls near free-standing doors
19:27 < Twinge> Oh, working it in reverse
19:27 < Twinge> that works too.
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19:39 < mr0t> ogaz: I'd wager the chances of that happening (being trapped by a distortion-wielding monster with no projectiles in starting vault) must be less than one in several thousand
19:39 < ogaz> true
19:39 < mr0t> how about clusters of free-standing doors? like when there are 3 of them next to each other?
19:39 < mr0t> I sorta envision those as portcullis-style gates
19:40 < ais523> they're drawn as gates on tiles, I think
19:44 < mr0t> well, I gotta admit that the first time I ever encountered free-standing doors I thought it was some kinda bu
19:44 < mr0t> *bug
19:48 < TGW> I'm trying to envision a door that opens once that you can move through in eight directions
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20:16 < CIA-81> pointless_ * r1d9f712c6d75 /crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Redo the Fedhas' growth UI
20:16 < CIA-81> pointless_ * r7d4bea3c73dc /crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Give plants created by growth an hp bonus
20:16 < CIA-81> pointless_ * r09782b43af4e /crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc religion.cc): Remove the piety cost for growth, reduce piety loss for allies dying
20:16 < CIA-81> pointless_ * rb1ff610c3ab9 /crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Don't prompt the user in growth if they can't use the ability
20:16 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-162-94.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:17 < Napkin> is there a unique with name jussuf?
20:19 <+doy> no
20:19 <+doy> there's jozef
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20:21 < ais523> TGW: some sort of pillar that can be collapsed into the ground, and pulled back out again
20:22 < TGW> ais523: it also has to be unable to close on items
20:22 < ais523> perhaps it retracts from the ceiling, instead then
20:23 < ais523> and an item on the square would make it unable to reach the ground, so it would retract automatically
20:23 < TGW> can you open doors while flying?
20:23 < TGW> oh
20:23 < TGW> maybe it opens from the floor, but extremely weakly
20:24 < TGW> so any extra weight jams it
20:30 < Zannick> maybe it's magic
20:35 < ais523> that's not a good explanation in a roguelike
20:35 < ais523> because then you have to consider things like antimagic and miscasts
20:35 < ais523> and wouldn't the door be glowing from having a permanent effect that long?
20:36 < TGW> and vulnerability should affect that sort of enchantment
20:38 < ais523> in other words, if your game has a physics for magic already, don't try using magic as an explanation because people will find inconsistencies
20:40 < Zannick> i mean, if your game has magic in it, you should be able to suspend disbelief that everything works as you might expect in our world
20:41 < ais523> games should still be internally consistent, though
20:41 < Zannick> yes
20:41 < ais523> you can visualise a melee fight between a spriggan and an ogre, even if neither exists in our world
20:41 < ais523> you'd expect the spriggan to be moving around and dodging a lot more, for instance
20:42 < ais523> you can even generalise to things that don't exist in-game; for instance, you'd expect an orc to be bad at threading a needle
20:42 < TGW> they seem fine at producing green and purple cloth
20:43 < TGW> unless that's paint
20:44 < ais523> orcs strike me as the sort of race who'd make animal-skin armour using staplers
20:44 < TGW> they have red robes for the priests, wizards
20:44 < TGW> orcish robes, at that
20:45 < ais523> I can understand them using dye
20:45 < ais523> maybe even blood to dye the robes, if they wanted to show off
20:45 < ais523> might make sense for high-ranking officials, other lesser orcs wouldn't be able to afford it
20:46 < TGW> well, the highest authority appears to be the warlord
20:46 < TGW> and they use armour
20:53 < ais523> maybe looted
20:53 < ais523> in Battle of Wesnoth flavour, orcs don't have the skills to make really good armour and weapons, so the top orcs get looted stuff as a status symbol; I imagine Crawl is similar
20:53 < ais523> *Battle for Wesnoth
20:54 < TGW> but there's orcish armour, heavy and light
20:54 < ogaz> orcs seem pretty good at making plate mail
20:54 < TGW> I guess 'orcish' could just mean there's some modification
20:54 < CIA-81> doy * r67cbd7ec7637 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: give doors a smaller chance to be removed
20:54 < CIA-81> doy * rc5f8606a36ba /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: better plant clumping algorithm
20:54 < ais523> beaten into orcshape
20:54 < ais523> (that's all orcish does in Crawl for armour, isn't it, reduces EV penalty for orcs?)
20:55 < TGW> orcs can cast b etter in it
20:55 < CIA-81> doy * r67cbd7ec7637 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: give doors a smaller chance to be removed
20:55 < CIA-81> doy * rc5f8606a36ba /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: better plant clumping algorithm
20:55 < CIA-81> doy * r2a48502991f0 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: allow bushes to be placed as well, at low chance
20:55 < TGW> and beogh loves it
20:55 < TGW> I suppose wizards and sorcerers wear robes for practical reasons
20:55 < TGW> @??orc high priest
20:55 < Gretell> orc high priest (o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-77 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Damage: 7 | Flags: evil, see invisible | Res: magic(58), hellfire | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1008 | Sp: pain, demon, smiting, animate dead, minor healing.
20:55 < TGW> hm, I guess they're spellcasters too
20:55 < TGW> @??orc priest
20:55 < Gretell> orc priest (o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-21 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 6 | Flags: evil | Res: magic(16) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 41 | Sp: pain, cantrip, smiting, minor healing.
20:57 <+doy> !tell dpeg i think i addressed all your issues, let me know what you think
20:57 < Henzell> doy: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
20:58 < ais523> ??mantis
20:58 < Henzell> mantis[1/2]: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/
21:08 <+kilobyte> !tell greensnark Why would you increase TAG_MAJOR for removing the amulet of slowing if it's so much simpler to just replace it with the amulet of stasis, or, if you don't care about making sense in existing games, any of the new amulets?
21:08 < Henzell> kilobyte: OK, I'll let greensnark know.
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21:29 <@dpeg> back
21:29 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
21:29 < TGW> 'lo dpeg
21:30 <+doy> dpeg: the doors went away because i applied my transform before doors were placed, and the builder couldn't find very many suitable places afterwards
21:30 <+doy> it wasn't intentional
21:30 <+doy> (:
21:32 <@dpeg> doy: Hi! I just looked at the pictures. Well, I am not keen on free-standing doors :)
21:32 <@dpeg> Then I'd rather have none, and allow players to create doors in some odd way.
21:32 <@dpeg> !messages
21:32 < Henzell> (1/1) doy said (35m 2s ago): i think i addressed all your issues, let me know what you think
21:32 <@dpeg> yes, awesome :)
21:32 < ais523> dpeg: like the wand of locking from NetHack?
21:33 < ais523> it locks doors, and it really likes locking doors and makes sure they're locked, even if it has to create the door to be able to do it
21:34 <+doy> dpeg: i don't think free standing doors are any more of a problem than free standing walls
21:34 <@dpeg> ais523: well, not the wand, to be honest. I think there could be some misc item which you could use up to create a door.
21:34 <+doy> but wouldn't be hard to get rid of them either
21:34 <@dpeg> doy: I do!
21:34 <@dpeg> free standing walls could be hillocks or whatever... doors are less flexible 
21:35 <+doy> well, in the context of ruins i mean
21:35 <+doy> but i'll fix it
21:35 <@dpeg> thank you!
21:35 <@dpeg> nice new content within 36 hours <3
21:35 <+doy> (:
21:35 <+doy> you should generate a couple levels and let me know what you think about the new clumping algorithm
21:36 <+doy> there's plenty of tweakable parameters
21:36 <@dpeg> ok will do
21:39 <@dpeg> ...compiling...
21:43 <@dpeg> got a crash after &Y~L1
21:43 <@dpeg> :(
21:43 <+doy> hmmm
21:44 <+doy> i think i know what it might be, i was getting it earlier but it went away
21:44 <+doy> i'll reorganize that part, give me a minute
21:46 <@dpeg> entering Lair by hand worked
21:49 <@dpeg> the clusters are good now
21:50 <@dpeg> when I play new Lair, I am not reminded of ruins, btw
21:50 <@dpeg> but rather of an "organic" level
21:51 <@dpeg> By the way, you know what'd be cool? If there were more places where plants block connectivity. So you can choose to hack through, like a one-off door.
21:52 <+doy> hmmm
21:52 <@dpeg> oh, and is ruination a parameter?
21:52 <@dpeg> we could increase it with depth in Lair
21:52 <+doy> dpeg: not currently, but it probably should be
21:53 <@dpeg> doy: would you mind playing with that? It's convergence in action =)
21:53 <+doy> okay(:
21:53 <@dpeg> more important (and easier) than the one-off plant doors, too :)
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21:56 < Eronarn> having some overgrown altars would be neat
21:57 <@dpeg> Eronarn: these could be made by hand, as vaults?
21:59 <+doy> yes, we need more lair-specific vaults
22:00 < syllogism> wizlab wucad mu is pretty nasty for some character types, though I guess anyone can just quaff a potion of speed and run :P
22:00 <@dpeg> syllogism: yes
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22:17 <+doy> hmmm
22:17 <+doy> i'm not sure about the convergence idea
22:17 <@dpeg> doy: doesn't look good?
22:17 <+doy> maybe i'm just starting too high
22:18 <@dpeg> what range does your parameter have?
22:18 <+doy> was starting at about the previous level and making it more ruined as you go deeper, but you can't really tell the difference that much
22:19 <@dpeg> doy: oh, I would start on Lair:1 with an (almost) unruined level.
22:19 <+doy> yeah
22:28 <+doy> alright, this looks somewhat decent
22:28 < CIA-81> doy * re46a80b5fd4e /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: remove free standing doors
22:28 < CIA-81> doy * r4ccdb5ec4e12 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: try to avoid crashes due to reallocation better
22:28 < CIA-81> doy * r61087e629ee4 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: parameterize ruin_level
22:28 < CIA-81> doy * r4671c6a94508 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: tweak the parameters a bit more
22:28 < CIA-81> doy * red0a77dc2fd6 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: parameterize add_plant_clumps
22:29 <@dpeg> doy: cool
22:30 <+doy> can mess with the parameters some more if it needs work
22:35 < CIA-81> doy * r2ec2ff85d890 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: typo fix
22:37 <@dpeg> doy: still get a crash with &~L1 
22:37 <+doy> hmmm
22:37 <+doy> can you get a backtrace?
22:38 <@dpeg> what's that?
22:39 <+doy> the stuff in the crash dump that it should have generated
22:40 <@dpeg> doy: just a moment, looking at the levels right now
22:40 <@dpeg> what is your parameter use?
22:41 <@dpeg> plant creation also increases with level?
22:42 <+doy> ruin_level has parameters for number of iterations of the algorithm, how frequently it should remove tiles, and how often it should replace removed tiles with plants
22:42 <+doy> add_plant_clumps has parameters for how often it should turn a plant into a clump, for how dense the clump should be, and how far out the clump should be allowed to go
22:42 <+doy> and yes, i made both of those dependent on depth
22:43 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:44 <+doy> the plant clumping might vary too much currently, the clumping parameter is pretty sensitive
22:44 -!- Vandal|PC [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:44 < Vandal|PC> o.o
22:45 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
22:45 < Vandal|PC> another Guard weekend finished
22:45 -!- Vandal|PC is now known as Vandal
22:45 < Vandal> It was pretty busy
22:45 <@dpeg> doy: yes, the clumps appear late (by my rough impression)
22:46 <+doy> yeah
22:46 < Vandal> surprised no one has commented on the stabbing wiki, I thought TGW at least would have
22:46 <+doy> i'm heading out to eat now, feel free to play with the parameters a bit
22:46 <+doy> be back to look over them more in a bit
22:51 <@dpeg> Vandal: some FRs have been lying for years without reply
22:52 < Vandal|LT> Oh I know :) tgw replied in IRC and was asked to comment on the wiki instead if he wanted to discuss it
22:53 < eith> hmm, naga do not make perfectly fine stabbers =p
22:54 < eith> they are very hard
22:54 < Vandal|LT> Care to be more specific?
22:54 < eith> you cant run away when shit goes wrong
22:54 < Vandal|LT> How does that make stabbing harder?
22:54 < eith> try play a naga stabber
22:54 < Vandal|LT> That is an inherent feature of the race
22:55 < Vandal|LT> and I have played Naga :) I love them honestly
22:55 < eith> how far?
22:55 < Vandal|LT> Fell into a shaft trap and got killed by a vampire's orange rats :[
22:55 < Vandal|LT> So many rats..
22:56 < Vandal|LT> That was my first vampire encounter :D I didn't know they could summon :D
22:56 < TGW> is there an option to remove the explosion animation?
22:57 < Vandal> Anyways eith, don't confuse the primary drawback of playing a Naga with making any particular tactic they use more difficult, it effects them all
22:57 < eith> my point is they make vastly better wizards than stabbers
22:57 < Vandal> As it happens Naga are more likely to get next to a monster without waking it up than any other race
22:58 < Vandal> So they are in fact, perfectly fine
22:58 < eith> in theory
22:58 < cbus> NaEn are nice
22:58 < Vandal> No, this is not theory, they have the best apts and the same size bonus as a Spriggan
22:58 < Vandal> for the purpose of Stealth checks
22:59 < Vandal> They do not get Stealth checked more than anyone else does
22:59 < eith> im not denying they cant stab well, im saying thats a hard playstyle for them, hence they arent perfectly good stabbers
22:59 < eith> nvm sure
23:00 < Vandal> :)
23:07 <@dpeg> !tell doy Can you send me a mail with the formulas where the ruination parameter enters? Also, what about having some rock walls be green and described as "moss-covered rock wall"?
23:07 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let doy know.
23:14 -!- by [n=rob@f052205171.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
23:21 < Ashenzari> Invisible mimics (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=383) by minmay
23:24 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit ["leaving"]
23:35 <+due> Hi.
23:40 <+due> Hooray, it's beat Jude over the head with a stick day.
23:41 < Vandal> oh my
23:43 <+due> I'm actually kinda pissed off at that.
23:51 <+due> I think i'm just going to ignore the entire thread.
23:54 < Siber> is this on crd or mantis?
23:55 <+due> I'm expected to list all the files changed, the exact changes that occurred, and my  reasoning *why*, for changing a 0 to a 1 in a return value on a function?