00:08 < Ashenzari> some combat messages don't fit dancing weapons (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=368) by jpeg 00:14 < Napkin> An orc, wielding 2 runed orcish hand axes, and wearing a leather armour. <- that's new and intended, right? 00:15 < MarvinPA> that means he has them quivered for throwing at you, i think? 00:15 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:15 < Napkin> he threw one, yes 00:16 < MarvinPA> awesome though dual-wielding orcs would be 00:16 < MarvinPA> :( 00:16 < Napkin> but you usually don't see quivered weapons, right? 00:16 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@xdsl-78-35-159-127.netcologne.de] has joined ##crawl-dev 00:16 < MarvinPA> yeah, i think that's new and intentional? seeing as lots more monsters throw stuff at you now, at least 00:16 <+doy> i'm not sure if that's intended or not 00:17 -!- Danei [n=Danei@d14-69-62-62.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:23 -!- Danei [n=Danei@d14-69-62-62.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##Crawl-dev 00:25 <@dpeg> throwing is intended, dual-wielding not (they should bash you with one axe only) -- I think 00:27 <+doy> my guess is that it's not actually dual wielding 00:27 <+doy> hand axes stack in monster inventories 00:27 <+doy> and so it probably just wielded the stack 00:27 <+doy> should probably not be displayed like that though 00:28 <@dpeg> yes, I'd guess the same 00:33 * Siber imagines an orc with five hatchets clutched in one fist 00:33 * Siber has no problem with this! 00:34 < Napkin> Hackfleisch! 00:39 <@dpeg> Sauerkraut! 00:41 < Napkin> fits to what five hatchets clutched in one first would leave behind of me :-P 00:48 < Ashenzari> jpeg created page Tiles interface at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:tiles:tiles_interface 00:49 <@dpeg> tiles, tiles, tiles 00:49 <@dpeg> what are these people thinking? 00:49 < Napkin> \o/ 00:50 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 00:58 < ais523> I find it much easier to instantly identify monsters and items on the screen in tiles 00:58 < ais523> unlike in NetHack, the tiles are actually useful 00:59 < Napkin> yeah 00:59 < Napkin> not doing any compares here - but my dad is doing the same 01:00 <@dpeg> Napkin: I also lost a family member to tiles. It hurts! 01:00 <@dpeg> :) 01:00 < Napkin> while I would want to walk onto the item, he already "identified" it by looking at it 01:00 -!- ais523 [n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:00 < Napkin> :D 01:00 < Napkin> he's really enjoying the dying, btw :D 01:01 < Napkin> yesterday he told me totally proudly that he killed 6 jellies in one level without having a piece of weapon or armour corroded :D 01:02 < Napkin> he's also a serious spell-book burner ;) 01:02 <@dpeg> yes! 01:02 < Napkin> having trouble with power-gaming skills, though 01:02 <@dpeg> I always love that. 01:02 < Napkin> f, shift+right is difficult for him 01:02 < Napkin> (training slings) 01:04 < Napkin> i macroed him "fL" to f12 ;) 01:04 < Napkin> currently cursing about the stress of having to hurry to the next meal.. since then started berserking less ;) 01:05 <@dpeg> hehe 01:05 <@dpeg> we will do something in the long run about victory dancing 01:05 < Napkin> what's that? 01:11 <@dpeg> victory dancing? 01:11 <@dpeg> what you call "power-gaming skills" 01:17 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:17 < Cryp71c> doy: what is the revision number in which the crawl wizard errors do not exist? 01:23 -!- TGW1 [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:27 < Cryp71c> alas, it seems everyone that's elsewhere around the world is in bed :( 01:28 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: need to move :) 01:28 <@dpeg> or !tell 01:31 < Napkin> was there a bug in 0.5.2 that caused 4 stone stairs to show up in D1 sometimes? 01:31 < Napkin> the 4th being in a completely isolated room 01:31 < Napkin> and D2 not showing any 4th stonestair up 01:33 < ogaz> Napkin: escape hatch? 01:33 < Cryp71c> dpeg: well there seems to have been an issue with the current head revision of the main git in which - for some users - pressing any charcter when in wizard mode and Ctrl+L (or 'M') screen(s) cause you to crash out to shell. 01:33 < Cryp71c> doy gave me a revision to back up to, which doesn't seem to suffer from the problem....but I don't remember it. 01:33 <@dpeg> oh 01:34 <@dpeg> ah, so you cannot test your commits? 01:34 < Cryp71c> dpeg: not easily, nope. 01:34 < Napkin> well, it was magic mapped area in tiles - it did look like a normal stone stair, ogaz 01:34 < Cryp71c> Most of the wizard funcs work fine, but several do not. 01:34 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: don'T worry, doy will be back some time, and everything will be fine 01:34 <@dpeg> your patch will also apply tomorrow :) 01:34 < Napkin> when did he tell you, Cryp71c? 01:35 < Cryp71c> dpeg: yeah, is there another tiles-related build flag I can set which changes something which might yield better performance or which is different than the standard make debug? 01:35 < Napkin> that is - if you forgot and want to know the commit hash? 01:35 < Cryp71c> dpeg: orly!? woohoo! 01:35 < Cryp71c> Napkin: earlier this morning, 6+ hours ago I would guess. 01:36 < Napkin> not sure I understood you.. but there's the log of this channel if you need it: http://tozt.net/crawl 01:36 < Cryp71c> Napkin: don't worry about it, it seems to be fixed in the head pull. 01:36 < Cryp71c> head revision* 01:36 < Napkin> cool 01:36 < Cryp71c> I just pulled everything and I can use it again. 01:36 < Cryp71c> dpeg: my fireball patch? 01:37 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: yes 01:37 < Cryp71c> coolio 01:37 <@dpeg> nice :) 01:39 -!- TGW1 [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:42 <@dpeg> okay, enough for today 01:43 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:43 < Napkin> g'night :) 01:44 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit ["zzz"] 01:45 < purge> @whereis greensnark 01:45 < Gretell> greensnark the Infuser (L10 OgEn), a worshipper of Sif Muna, saved on Lair:1 on 2010-01-05 after 11968 turns. 01:53 < Ashenzari> Control teleporting away from a mermaid's mesmerize (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=369) by Pseudonut 01:56 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:59 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:01 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:01 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:07 < Vandal> btw 02:07 < Vandal> I'm positive this must have been brought up a million times 02:07 < Vandal> but are there any plans with regards to dual-wielding? 02:08 < Vandal> Or is that just totally stupid and no one wants to do it? 02:11 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:13 < Napkin> up to what level can overflow altars appear? 02:14 < Vandal> I think 9 is what I was told 02:14 * Napkin is still searching for Vehumet in D8 02:14 < Vandal> :[ 02:14 < Vandal> That stinks 02:16 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v pointless_] by ChanServ 02:17 <+due> pointless_! 02:17 < Vandal> ? 02:17 <+pointless_> Hi 02:17 < Vandal> oh hey due 02:17 <+due> Vandal: No dual-wielding except for monsters. 02:17 < Vandal> Is that the final word? 02:17 < Vandal> I'm not in favor of it personally 02:17 <+due> I believe so. 02:17 < Vandal> but dpeg suggested there could be ways to make Short Blades not useless 02:18 <+due> Dual wielding is certainly not one of them :) 02:18 < Vandal> the first one I thought of was "well, if they're worth half a real weapon" 02:18 < Vandal> "why not have 2" 02:18 < Vandal> Got any ideas of your own? 02:19 < Vandal> I'm still in favor of consolidation 02:19 < Vandal> I want to explore possibilities though 02:19 <+due> I think it should just be blades with scaled stuff. 02:19 < Vandal> ? 02:19 < Vandal> Well if you look at the chart I made of all the existing Blade weapons 02:19 <+due> Dump short and long differentiations. 02:19 < Vandal> Yeah 02:19 < Vandal> That is what I meant by consolidation 02:19 <+due> This is the way that armour shall also go: heavy and light differentiation will go. 02:20 < Vandal> The weapons themselves are already formatted to flow into each other 02:20 < Vandal> except it doesn't work 02:20 < Vandal> because starting with a long blade and 0 skill leaves you with no attack speed or damage bonus 02:20 < Vandal> even if you were 10 sblades 02:20 < Vandal> it is actually kind of dangerous to start training lblades 02:21 <+due> Yeah, crosstraining doesn't work that wall in that regard. 02:21 < mr0t> I always thought long and short blades should just be merged 02:21 < Vandal> but 02:21 < Vandal> dpeg mentioned wanting to see if there were ways short could be saved 02:21 < mr0t> if whips and maces get the same category, then why do swords get arbitrarily divided based on their length alone 02:21 < purge> hrm, you shouldn't be able to cast orb od destruction at point blank, or it should harm you as well 02:21 < purge> of* 02:22 < Vandal> I don't think I've heard anyone else wanting to save the difference though 02:22 <+due> mr0t: I agree. 02:22 < Vandal> I think a better idea would be to just combine and trim some blades out 02:22 < Vandal> trim some maces out 02:22 < Vandal> and expand Staves :) 02:22 < Vandal> Make it into a real weapon class 02:22 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2106-g0af1dc3 (15.2)! 02:22 <+due> Hooray! I didn't break it. :) 02:22 < Vandal> hooray 02:22 < Napkin> \o/ 02:22 < Napkin> :D 02:22 <+due> :D 02:23 < mr0t> I bet if there was a poll of ##crawl or something, it'd be in favor of merging also, as long as 'no change' wasn't an option :p (human nature resists change) 02:23 < Vandal> another really cool idea that dpeg mentioned offhand was something like a "stabbing quiver" 02:23 < mr0t> hrm 02:23 <+due> mr0t: We usually ignore ##crawl in that regard, though. 02:23 < Vandal> that is another topic entirely though 02:23 < mr0t> well, ya gotta poll *somewhere* if you want opinions that aren't after the fact 02:24 < Vandal> mr0t that is the beauty of having a dev server 02:24 < mr0t> r.g.r.m i guess 02:24 < mr0t> what, CDO? 02:24 <+due> mr0t: DO. 02:24 < Vandal> you can make whatever changes you want, get feedback, change them some more, all under the pretense that it isn't "real" yet :D 02:24 <+due> *CDO. 02:24 < Napkin> our wordpress supports polls 02:25 < Napkin> we did one about whether git was a good choice 02:25 <+due> I'm seriously debating doing the next playtesting post today. 02:27 < mr0t> yeah, ya'll got it covered 02:28 < mr0t> if anyone has a time machine, please go back to about 1998 and kick me in the ass for giving up on learning C in favor of the guitar. a whole lot of good that's brought me.. a couple of crazy girlfriends, that's about it 02:29 < mr0t> whereas I might even be *gasp* employed.. if only I had a brain 02:29 < Vandal> mr0t while we're at it lets go back in time and kick me in the ass for giving up learning C and uh .. playing video games in my room 02:30 < mr0t> vandal: you seem to have not given it up, or if you did, you were a helluva lot farther along than I was 02:30 < Vandal> no 02:30 < Vandal> I just love games 02:30 < mr0t> oh, you just playtest? 02:30 < Vandal> and to be a PC gamer you needed to learn a few tricks 02:30 < Vandal> well 02:30 < Vandal> I've played a LOT of games 02:30 < mr0t> yeah.. me too 02:31 < Vandal> I playtest and write up feature requests, and I volunteered to write monster descriptions 02:31 < mr0t> i've played every NES game that was released in the US 02:31 < Vandal> I would like to learn C++ :) 02:31 < Vandal> I'm trying 02:31 < Vandal> just.. I spend more time talking about features than I do even playing 02:31 < Vandal> I am drawn to the mechanical side of games 02:31 < Vandal> What makes them fun 02:31 < Vandal> Balance 02:31 < mr0t> hrm 02:31 < Vandal> That sort of stuff 02:32 < Vandal> I made it my mission to save Halflings, I think I managed it :) 02:32 < mr0t> well, that alone could get you a job, if you got lucky 02:32 < Vandal> You'd have to start your own company pretty much 02:32 < mr0t> all I can do is copy-edit 02:32 < mr0t> these days, yeah 02:32 < Vandal> and since I can't code I can't make my own games 02:32 < Vandal> just write them down and cry ;_; 02:32 < mr0t> but during the rapid expansion of the video game market from 1985-2005 or so 02:33 < Vandal> even then, you needed to be able to provide a demo 02:33 < mr0t> heh 02:33 < Vandal> I have a really great friend who works for Vigil 02:33 < mr0t> well, you're prolly young enough to learn 02:33 < Vandal> When we were in high school he was programming Undreal and Half Life mods 02:33 < mr0t> I would be too, if my brane weren't all swiss-cheese 02:33 < Vandal> He got to talk to the execs of Epic Games 02:33 < Vandal> That guy did it right 02:34 < Vandal> I never had his discipline 02:34 < mr0t> yeah, but some people are just more.. motivated 02:34 < Vandal> and honestly I'm not interested in coding itself :/ 02:34 < Vandal> that is the hard part 02:34 < mr0t> *shrug* maybe if you had gotten a job in the field, you'd be working making games, sure, but jobs have a funny way of sucking 100% of the fun from whatever's associated with said job 02:35 < Vandal> yeah 02:35 < mr0t> hrm, that does present a quandary 02:35 < Vandal> I'm still probably going to study Comp Sci until I graduate, though 02:35 < mr0t> I wouldn't even care whether I coded games or accounting algorithms 02:35 < Vandal> I was going to try Physics but I just don't care 02:35 < mr0t> I enjoy the pure logical nature of it 02:35 < Vandal> I'm a gamer 02:35 <+due> off-topic is thataway :) 02:35 < Vandal> hah 02:35 < mr0t> this is about development! 02:35 < Vandal> No one else was using this channel :) 02:35 < mr0t> maybe not directly crawl development, but 02:35 < mr0t> it's ok, I gotta go anyway 02:36 < Vandal> see ya 02:39 < Ashenzari> Vandal created page Short blades at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:item:short_blades 02:40 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 02:47 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:48 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@88-148-220-185.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 02:50 < Vandal> Ok so due 02:50 < Vandal> Now that you know you can wield a Long Sword even 02:51 < Vandal> as an Sp 02:51 < Vandal> with a Buckler iirc 02:51 < Vandal> Still think there is any real reason to have Quick Blades at the end game? 02:51 <+due> Stab damage bonus. 02:51 <+due> I killed three orbs of fire and woke up two more and then died. :0 02:51 < Vandal> Ok, how is that better than a dagger? 02:52 <+due> And with slaying, quick blades are still the best weapon to have. 02:52 <+due> ??quick blade 02:52 < Henzell> quick blade[1/3]: The only weapon that can be a randart but can never get a speed brand. Damage: 5. Accuracy: 6. Delay: 70%, with the minimum delay being 30%. Doesn't chop off hydra heads, if you were wondering. Is classified as a short blade, longer than a dagger, but shorter than a short sword. 02:52 <+due> ??long swoord 02:52 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled long_swoord in my learndb. 02:52 <+due> ??long sword 02:52 < Henzell> long sword[1/1]: One-handed long blade (Dam: 10, Acc: +1, Delay: 14) 02:52 < Vandal> Slaying doesn't improve base damage, base damage gets multiplied to insanity and beyond 02:52 <+due> Yeah, but +10 slaying makes quick blades viable. :) 02:52 < Vandal> Viable but not better? 02:53 <+due> Well, a long blade with +10 slaying is still far superior. 02:53 <+pointless_> ?? weapon damage 02:53 < Henzell> weapon damage[1/3]: Approximately: 1d(base*strength_bonus + slaying)*skill_bonus + 1d(to_dam) + various bonuses. Weapon {brand} is applied after monster AC reduction. 02:53 < Vandal> Part of the reason I'm asking 02:53 <+pointless_> slaying is actually pretty close to base damage 02:53 < Vandal> dpeg wants a shorter list of weapons if they were to be consolidated 02:53 < Vandal> ah, so slaying is more important than enchants 02:53 <+due> Oh, yes. 02:54 < Vandal> So 02:54 < Vandal> I'm looking for stuff to cut 02:54 < Vandal> He wants to cut Knives and Katanas 02:54 < Vandal> That still leaves 11 types 02:54 <+due> Not Katanas :( 02:55 <+due> ??knife 02:55 < Henzell> knife[1/1]: A one-handed short blade. Damage 3, Accuracy +5, Delay 100% 02:55 < Vandal> I'll show you the table when I'm done, but I don't think quickblades are actually signicant enough to be worth keeping 02:55 < Vandal> they're a "gee whiz" thing 02:55 <+due> To be honest, not really. 02:55 <+due> ??sabre 02:55 < Henzell> sabre[1/1]: Base damage:7, To-hit:+4, attack delay:120% short blade. Best common short blade in the game, though daggers are better for stabbing. Quick blades deal damage faster, their relative effectiveness increasing with slaying and decreasing with AC. A sabre of speed is always the best short blade, unless you're stabbing or can make use of pain. 02:55 < Vandal> no real practical application 02:55 <+due> ??short sword 02:55 < Henzell> short sword[1/1]: A sword with a short, slashing blade. (Short Blade; Dam 6 Acc +4 Delay 11) 02:55 <+due> But sabres should have their delay reduced slightly to compensate, I think... maybe not. 02:55 < Vandal> Just look at the table :) 02:55 <+due> Lazy :0 02:56 < Vandal> I mean when I'm done 02:56 < Vandal> It has the old table still on the page 02:56 < Vandal> all the info side by side 02:56 < Vandal> well here 02:56 < Vandal> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:item:blade_consolidation 02:56 < Vandal> as it exists now 02:56 < Vandal> you can look up every blade type 02:57 < Vandal> and yeah 02:57 <+due> okay 02:57 <+due> Time to accomplish things 02:58 < Vandal> my kobold in wizmode is wearing a full sized Shield and wielding a Demon Blade 02:58 < Vandal> the biggest of the not-1.5 hand swords 02:58 < nrook> I like quickblades, their gimmick is lots of fun 02:58 < nrook> if they suck, the solution is to improve them, not to get rid of a possibly interesting weapon 02:58 < Vandal> How about making daggers faster since no one actually fights using them? 02:59 < Vandal> two birds with one stone 02:59 <+due> ??dagger 02:59 < Henzell> dagger[1/1]: A long knife or a very short sword, which can be held or thrown. (small Short Blade; Dam 4 Acc +6 Delay 10) Notable for getting a much larger Stabbing bonus than any other weapon. 02:59 < Xiberia> make the speed cap lower! 02:59 < nrook> but having a weapon no one actually fights with is interesting, too 02:59 < Xiberia> so you can quickblade with haste 02:59 <+due> They're 100%? 02:59 < Vandal> and nrook, the problem is dpeg wants a shorter list 02:59 < Xiberia> yeaaa 02:59 < ogaz> daggers are used for fighting with in the very early game 02:59 < Vandal> we're looking specifically for stuff to kill 02:59 <+due> wtf. 02:59 <+due> I didn't realise they were so slow. 03:00 < Vandal> daggers are completely worthless 03:00 < Vandal> even when stabbing 03:00 < nrook> that's not even true 03:00 < Vandal> sorear pointed this out for me, sabres get the job done just as well 03:00 <+due> ??sabre 03:00 < Henzell> sabre[1/1]: Base damage:7, To-hit:+4, attack delay:120% short blade. Best common short blade in the game, though daggers are better for stabbing. Quick blades deal damage faster, their relative effectiveness increasing with slaying and decreasing with AC. A sabre of speed is always the best short blade, unless you're stabbing or can make use of pain. 03:00 < Vandal> because the bonus they get to the bonus dmg pales in comparison to the overall multipliers 03:00 < AceTetra> daggers are good for throwing 03:00 <+due> Yeah, agree. 03:00 < Vandal> anyways... 03:00 < nrook> I was under the impression that sorear's argument was that sabres can one-hit anything anyway 03:00 < Vandal> like you said :) back to work 03:00 < Vandal> right nrook 03:01 < Vandal> thus making the dagger bonus essentially pointless 03:01 < nrook> the trouble is, that isn't true :) 03:01 < Vandal> except that it is? 03:01 < Vandal> or are you saying he was wrong? 03:01 < nrook> I left plenty of things at "heavily wounded" by stabbing them with my short sword 03:01 < Vandal> you can do that with a dagger too 03:01 < Vandal> low skill is low skill 03:02 < nrook> ah, but I was at moderate skill 03:02 < Xiberia> i stabbed stone giants to death in vaults just fine with my sabre 03:02 < Vandal> this is getting arbitrary~ 03:02 < Xiberia> when i was playing SpEn 03:02 < nrook> Vandal: that tends to happen when arguments are based around empirical evidence 03:04 < Vandal> Anyway, removing Quick Blades would make room for Daggers to become faster and less completely horrible after the monster wakes up 03:04 < nrook> yes, which would make them _less interesting weapons_ 03:04 < Vandal> there is nothing interesting about daggers right now 03:05 < Vandal> we've already established that Sabres get the same job done without being horrible weapons 03:05 < Vandal> that you can throw them, that is unique 03:05 < Vandal> but, high agi races tend to be low str, and under the new str / weight system you can't carry around as many daggers on those characters as you used to 03:05 < Vandal> at least it doesn't feel that way to me 03:06 < Vandal> might need to lower their weight a little if retaining their throwing weapon niche is a goal 03:06 < nrook> remove knives, short swords, falchions, and katanas. buff the quick blade to 9 power. consider adding a new, weak 2-handed long blade. 03:06 < Vandal> make the quick blade into a mini-longsword that attacks a billion times faster 03:06 < Vandal> that won't be broken 03:07 < Napkin> well - i'm ok with meeting kobolds and others with daggers instead of sabres 03:07 < nrook> given the fact that its competition is a double sword, I doubt it will either 03:07 < Napkin> i don't want the d1 kobold to have a sabre! 03:07 < Vandal> Napkin :) 03:07 < Vandal> That isn't going to happen 03:07 < nrook> incidentally, is there a reason why the abyss is toroidal rather than infinite, beyond programming capability? 03:08 < nrook> I was thinking that might be a fun programming project--a really infinite abyss 03:08 <+sorear> I have studied the abyss and am 99% sure it is NOT toroidal 03:08 < ogaz> well, if you accidentally abyss geryon/the royal jelly, it would be nice to have a way to kill them 03:09 <+sorear> "the abyss is toroidal" is a persistant rumor, I've seen no proof of it 03:09 <+sorear> (the Abyss isn 03:09 < nrook> oh it isn't? huh. I've only read abyss.cc in a cursory manner, and have no clue about its shape 03:09 <+sorear> (the Abyss isn't true-infinite either; it's ...weird) 03:10 < nrook> I guess that fits it :) 03:13 < Twinge> ogaz: That could also be done by keeping an array of those abyssed mobs, and maybe specifically if their HD is high enough or something (goblins wouldn't survive the abyss) there would be a tiny chance to generate them as you wandered around the abyss, much in the same way the rune or portals can be generated. 03:14 <+sorear> Twinge: that's exactly how it works currently 03:14 < nrook> it's just uniques, right? 03:14 <+sorear> Non-uniques have a smallish chance 03:14 < Vandal> wow. there really are just 5 types of axes 03:14 <+sorear> You probably won't notice unless you're using banishment an unhealthy amount 03:14 < Vandal> yet they remain incredibly popular 03:14 < nrook> ah, interesting. 03:15 < Twinge> nrook: Oh yeah? Awesome. 03:15 < Twinge> Or sorear, rather. But yeah. Didn't realize that was already in place. 03:16 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 03:17 < nrook> my real dream, though, is a flat (not level-based) swamp 03:18 < nrook> a big place, filled with swamp worms, mosquitos, and hydras 03:18 < Twinge> Like 3-4 swamps together in size, but jsut a single level? 03:18 < nrook> find the Lernaean Hydra and carve out the scaly rune from its back; you can track it, because the blood of any dead hydra flows toward it 03:19 < nrook> Twinge: more like 8-10, but the player isn't expected to explore anywhere near the whole place 03:19 <+due> The swamp needs more clouds, at the very least. 03:19 < ogaz> I've felt for a while that all the up-staircases in Swamp should be on one side of the level, and all the down-staircases on the other side so that it feels like you're traversing the swamp instead of using random stepladders that someone scattered around a multi-level swamp or something 03:20 <+due> ogaz: Agree. 03:20 < AceTetra> abyss looks a lot like swamp, so maybe swamp should wrap around like abyss 03:20 < AceTetra> oh jeez that was like a screen ago 03:21 < nrook> a while ago, someone suggested no XP from swamp 03:22 < AceTetra> anyway, i'm probably the one who started the toroidal abyss thing, because i'm absolutely sure i've returned to the same features by wrapping around 03:22 < nrook> I think this would be an utterly fantastic idea--it hits home the fact that the player isn't going around slaughtering wildlife. he's looking for something. 03:22 < ogaz> But if that happens you don't get anything from Swamp other than a rune 03:22 < nrook> (you would, of course, have to give something in exchange.) 03:23 < nrook> that's why I like the idea of a boss-monster, who could give a huge amount of XP (like 50000); that allows the player to be hunting an animal in this wild place, and to give a reward 03:24 < Vandal> nrook that sounds really badass 03:25 < nrook> it should, I've been contemplating it for a while :) 03:25 <+due> It's a nice idea for a portal vault. 03:26 < Vandal> has anyone talked about adding more axes? 03:27 <+due> Not sure. Do we really need them? 03:27 < Vandal> not suggesting we do 03:27 < Vandal> just asking if the topic was ever brought up 03:27 < AceTetra> i like that there's not too many axes 03:28 < Vandal> it actually works very well 03:28 < Vandal> it is proof that a weapon catagory can get along fine with 5 base types 03:28 < ogaz> polearms has about that many as well, by the way 03:29 < Vandal> I know :) I just picked axes because they're more easily compared to blades 03:29 < ogaz> spear, trident, halberd, glaive, bardiche, two rare polearms, one of which is awful and the other of which is , well, rare 03:29 < Vandal> 7 03:29 < Vandal> none of the axes are rare or terrible 03:29 < ogaz> executioners 03:29 < Vandal> well semi-rare 03:29 < ogaz> no, executioners is extremely rare 03:29 < Vandal> triple-sword rare? 03:29 <+due> Yes. 03:29 < ogaz> yes 03:30 < Vandal> oh, cool 03:30 < Vandal> My friend got one with his very first Trog acquirement once, and I've still never seen a TS :P 03:31 < Vandal> well 03:31 < Vandal> nothing wrong with the biggest dmg weapon in the catagory being rare 03:31 < Vandal> I take it Bardiche are like that too then? 03:31 < Vandal> and Great Maces? 03:31 < ogaz> no, bardiche is slightly less common than a battleaxe in my experience 03:31 < Vandal> ah 03:31 < ogaz> which is okay because it's about as good as a battleaxe 03:31 < Vandal> so just Ex / TS are on that tier 03:32 <+due> Bardice are surprisingly common. 03:32 <+due> Double sword and katanaa are also quite rare. 03:32 < ogaz> katana/double sword/quick blade are probably about that rare as well 03:34 < Twinge> Great maces are the most common of all of those, but also one of the worst. At least once I took maces because I expected to get a better mace sooner, and as I kept dying in the early game it seemed like that would do me more good than Axes. 03:35 < Vandal> GM are comparable now I think? 03:35 < Vandal> In cdo 03:35 -!- Enne [n=enne@cpe-076-182-101-004.nc.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 03:35 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Enne] by ChanServ 03:35 <+due> Twinge: Maces sucked for a long time. 03:35 < Vandal> Is there a table with all the cdo mace values some place? 03:35 < ogaz> GM are strictly better than battleaxes now 03:35 < Vandal> There needs to be one in the wiki 03:35 <+due> We could probably generate one. 03:36 <+greensnark> Mornin due 03:36 < CIA-81> greensnark * r52a0cc32814d /crawl-ref/source/dat/crypt.des: Restore missing Crypt:5 vault. 03:38 <+due> :) 03:38 <+due> greensnark: Thanks. 03:39 <+due> Man, HaHu is a breeze. 03:39 < Vandal> depends on how kind ammo is.. 03:39 <+due> 43 +1 sling bullets :) 03:40 < Vandal> the whole long/short blade thing being resolved would tie up my last loose ends 03:40 < Vandal> since they aren't really good with anything else 03:40 < Vandal> (yet) 03:40 <+due> And a long sword! Woohoo. 03:40 <+due> ??demon blade 03:40 < Henzell> demon blade[1/2]: A terrible weapon, forged in the fires of Hell. (single-handed Long Blade, Dmg 13, Acc -1, Delay 15) 03:40 < Vandal> lucky you 03:40 <+due> Demon blade + buckler is my intent for this HaHu. 03:40 < Vandal> it should be :) 03:41 < nrook> I had to dig through half of the hells for a demon blade on my last halfling 03:41 < Vandal> now it would just be nice if your short blade training actually gave you any bonuses while training Long Blades! 03:41 < ogaz> my last halfling hit things with a staff of cold :) 03:41 <+due> Blowgun! 03:41 < nrook> Vandal: if only having greater short blade skill than long blade skill made training long blades only take half the xp 03:42 < Vandal> vs. any other weapon type letting you train with low dmg / fast / high acc weapons and progressing into bigger ones without completely losing your already gained bonuses 03:43 < Twinge> s/completely/partially 03:43 < Vandal> short blades does not give you any bonus to wielding a long blade 03:43 < Vandal> the bonuses are gone 03:43 < Vandal> you have to start over 03:44 < Twinge> ??cross training 03:44 < Henzell> cross training[1/1]: Some weapon skills train twice as fast if you have another skill at higher level. Pairs that allow cross training are Short <-> Long Blades, Maces <-> Axes, Axes <-> Polearms, Polearms <-> Staves, Slings <-> Throwing. 03:44 < Vandal> it doesn't matter if it takes 50% xp, while you're training it you still suck ass with it 03:44 < Vandal> vs. no other weapon cat having that penalty for progressing into higher damage base types 03:44 <+due> Yeah, cross training as it currnetly exists sucks. 03:46 <+greensnark> Actually cross-training makes you train your skills really fast if you have halfway decent apt in the second skill 03:46 <+due> Ack, no, killer bees :( 03:46 <+greensnark> And switching from short to long blades is really not hard at all 03:46 < Vandal> how hard you perceive it to be has no bearing on what actually happens 03:46 < Vandal> you reset, completely 03:46 <+greensnark> So? 03:46 <+due> But you train at 50% apt. 03:47 <+greensnark> You train up long blades lightning fast 03:47 < Vandal> you train them about as fast as you would train short blades, on a Halfling, slightly faster 03:47 < Vandal> 60 vs. 100 apt 03:47 <+due> !aptha 03:47 <+due> !apt ha 03:47 < Henzell> Ha: Air=90, Armour=150, Axes=120, Bows=70, Conj=130, Xbows=90, Darts=50!, Div=140, Dodge=70, Earth=100, Ench=100, Evo=67, Exp=100!, Fighting=120, Fire=100, Ice=100, Inv=75, Long=100, Maces=150, Nec=150, Poison=120, Polearms=160, Shields=130, Short=60!, Slings=50!, Splcast=169, Stab=70, Staves=130, Stealth=60, Summ=120, Throw=60!, Tloc=100, Tmut=150, Traps=100, Unarmed=140* 03:47 <+due> Actually, faster. 03:47 < Vandal> so it becomes 60 vs. 50 for a few turns 03:47 < Vandal> er, levels 03:48 < Vandal> meanwhile 03:48 < Vandal> all the xp you put into Short Blades is now moot and useless for the rest of the game 03:49 <+greensnark> I'm not very sympathetic to players who obsess about xp :) 03:49 <+greensnark> There's all the xp in the game you could want and more 03:49 < Vandal> If you want to be a farmer, sure 03:49 <+greensnark> No 03:49 <+greensnark> If you play normally 03:49 <+due> Hehe, 03:50 <+due> The clash of the dev and the power gamers! 03:50 < Vandal> This is silly, this is the only case where cross training even functions like this 03:50 < Vandal> Everywhere else it is between equally valid skill sets, not giving one up entirely because it is clearly inferior 03:55 < Napkin> hey, moin greensnark :) 03:55 < Napkin> <- still alive with HEFE \o/ 03:56 < Twinge> You might still want to stab with a dagger but use long blade for normal combat or something. It's not exactly ideally to have both skill sets, but not entirely worthless. 03:56 <+greensnark> @whereis Napkin 03:56 < Gretell> Napkin the Slicer (L10 HEFE), a worshipper of Vehumet, is currently on Lair:1 after 22924 turns. 03:56 < Napkin> overflow vehumet temple in d9! :D 03:56 <+greensnark> Got blink yet? :) 03:56 <+greensnark> Ah, late Vehumet :) 03:56 < Napkin> not a single book found yet :-O 03:56 < Vandal> Short Blades skill is not necessary to instagib 03:56 <+greensnark> Oh nice 03:56 < Vandal> Stabbing's own bonuses are more than sufficient 03:57 < Twinge> Depending on what you're stabbing 03:57 <+greensnark> You cannot hope to kill nontrivial monsters with a longblade stab 03:57 < Vandal> I didn't say use a longblade 03:57 < Vandal> I said the skill itself is insignificant compared to your Stabbing skill 03:58 <+greensnark> Ok 03:58 <+greensnark> But do you have a point somewhere? :) 03:58 < Vandal> You don't need Short Blades skill to Stab things 03:58 < Vandal> Ever 03:58 < Vandal> You need Stabbing skill and Dex 03:59 < Vandal> I'm not sure if Twinge was trying to say Short Blades themselves or the skill set remained useful 03:59 < Vandal> He mentioned both 03:59 <+greensnark> Short blades are still usable endgame, if underpowered compared to other skills 03:59 < Vandal> I'm saying the skill set is inferior 03:59 < purge> greensnark: dpeg got an early banishment by Erocha earlier and splatted in abyss heh he was only like clvl 9 03:59 <+greensnark> !lg dpeg 03:59 < Henzell> 841. dpeg the Archer (L11 KeHu), worshipper of Yredelemnul, blasted by a smoke demon (divine providence) in the Abyss on 2010-01-09, with 9104 points after 19422 turns and 1:55:52. 03:59 <+greensnark> Early Abyss is nasty 04:00 < purge> there were 4 or 5 smoke demons on the screen when he died lol 04:00 <+greensnark> I have a terribly Abyss record myself 04:00 <+greensnark> It works out best for me if I never go there to begin with :P 04:00 < purge> my current char got banished at a point where i was likely to die but the gate was in view after like 6 moves :) 04:00 < purge> @whereis purge 04:00 < Gretell> purge the Severer (L15 DSFi), a worshipper of Makhleb, saved on D:20 on 2010-01-08 after 40523 turns. 04:01 <+greensnark> !lg . Abyss 04:01 < Henzell> 11. greensnark the Charm-Maker (L11 MuCr), worshipper of Sif Muna, hit from afar by a hellion in the Abyss on 2008-10-19, with 9548 points after 28763 turns and 2:48:09. 04:01 < Twinge> Vandal: I'd have to test or run some numbers to say further I suppose. I know the skill itself factors in, but you may be right that it's minor enough compared to the stab obnus to be irrelevant. 04:01 < Vandal> That is the point I was making, yes :) 04:02 < Vandal> Don't forget to bump your Dex when you test 04:02 < Vandal> It matters quite a bit 04:03 < Napkin> hey, while there is this talk about stabbing... 04:04 < Napkin> why are there those 2 messages? 04:04 < Napkin> -Helpless, the snake fails to dodge your attack. 04:04 < Napkin> The snake fails to defend itself. 04:04 < Napkin> -- 04:04 < Vandal> I think the first one is a conduct related thing 04:04 < Vandal> The 2nd means you actually stabbed and didn't just attack 04:04 < Napkin> different meanings? 04:04 < Napkin> ah 04:04 <+greensnark> Napkin: There's a proposal to get rid of a lot of the duplicate messages on the wiki 04:04 <+greensnark> Targeted for 0.6 04:05 < Napkin> cool :) 04:05 < purge> i want the demonspawn revamp :| 04:05 <+greensnark> Isn't that mostly done? 04:05 < purge> i think they just need more ideas for mutation sets 04:06 <+due> and sorear has to code them. :) 04:06 < Napkin> haven't mutations just been overhauled for 0.5? 04:06 < purge> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:demonspawn 04:06 < Vandal> bloogh.. I should probably try to help with that 04:06 < purge> napkin: yup hehe 04:06 < Vandal> DS just don't suit my play style 04:07 < purge> DS is my favorite race by far since they are different each time you play 04:07 < Vandal> I agree they are a really cool race 04:08 < Vandal> I just like planning things out, and as you mentioned they are unpredicatable :) 04:08 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 04:08 < purge> i dunno if i like their new idea of giving mutation sets rather than it being random but we'll see how it plays 04:08 < purge> *totally random 04:08 < Vandal> Are the new mutations weighted? 04:08 < Vandal> Like if you're a caster, you get caster muts? 04:08 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@xdsl-78-35-159-127.netcologne.de] has left ##crawl-dev [] 04:09 < Vandal> I just see myself getting pissed off if I'm playing a Conjurer and I get Horns and Claws and crap 04:09 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@xdsl-78-35-159-127.netcologne.de] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:09 < purge> i don't think they are weighted but you'd have to ask sorear he is implementing it 04:10 < Twinge> Vandal: Sounded like you would always get 1 of: horns, hooves, claws. But I'm not certain. 04:10 < purge> lol@##crawl 04:11 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:11 <+due> Mu! 04:11 <+due> I need to work on Troves, sigh, and then WizLabs. 04:11 < Vandal> What would get me really interested in them is if you got mutations based on what you were doing 04:11 < Vandal> but the set was large enough that you didn't get the same mutations every game 04:11 <+due> Vandal: They're deterministic. :) 04:11 < Mu_> screw troves, finish wizlabs :p 04:11 < Vandal> due? 04:11 <+due> Vandal: Start a debug game of a demonspawn. 04:11 < Vandal> ok! 04:12 <+due> Your mutations are decided at the start of the game. 04:12 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@xdsl-78-35-159-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:12 <+due> Mu_: Yeah, but I promised dpeg. Food! 04:13 < Vandal> are they uh 04:13 < Vandal> based on your class? 04:13 <+sorear> No. 04:13 < Twinge> Hmm. Seems a hound spawning on d1 when you're not farming the level is too extreme, even if rare. Only a Spriggan probably survives that? 04:13 <+sorear> That would be stupid. 04:14 < Vandal> So 04:15 < Vandal> Are you trying to lean them away from interacting with specific skills? 04:15 <+sorear> Yes. 04:17 < Vandal> I see 04:17 < Vandal> Well I guess if you planned to play every DS as a hybrid it wouldn't really matter what your mutations favored 04:18 < Vandal> Odd though that you always have to get an aux attack mut 04:18 < Vandal> Can't go wrong training unarmed on a DS I guess 04:18 < purge> if you play a demonspawn chaos knight of xom all your mutations could be completely random instead :) 04:19 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:20 < Vandal> Really? 04:20 < Vandal> Is that a special case? 04:20 < Twinge> No -- but it might be a good special case, potentially. 04:22 < TGW> for what? 04:23 < purge> TGW: channel is logged 04:23 < TGW> fair enough 04:23 < TGW> my poor computer 04:24 < Twinge> 20:21] transmutation miscasts should turn you into a frog and so on 04:24 < Twinge> 20:21] why does this not happen 04:24 <+due> That would be funny. 04:24 < TGW> is swine form added to tmut miscasts yet? 04:24 < Twinge> Ooh! 04:24 < Twinge> Yeah swine already exists. That would be good. 04:25 -!- GeoBSD [n=geobsd@lns-bzn-38-82-253-122-26.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26 <+sorear> Vandal: you have missed too much of the DS design discussion; I recommend reading the crawl-ref-discuss archives before commenting further 04:27 < Vandal> sound advice 04:27 < Vandal> Forgive me if I'm mistaken though, I do have one observation 04:27 < Vandal> Since UC is already extremely powerful 04:27 < Vandal> and DS are guaranteed to get at least 1 mut that enhances it 04:28 < Vandal> It seems like anyone playing DS should always train UC 04:28 <+sorear> Minotaurs *start* with a mutation that enhances UC, and have a much better UC apt than demonspawn do 04:28 < Vandal> Right 04:29 <+due> MiMo <3 04:29 <+sorear> !lg * race=mi ktyp=winning s=skill 04:29 < Henzell> 129 games for * (race=mi ktyp=winning): 55x Axes, 21x Fighting, 17x Long Blades, 11x Maces & Flails, 8x Unarmed Combat, 7x Staves, 6x Polearms, 2x Dodging, 1x Evocations, 1x Shields 04:29 < Vandal> Most players don't know that UC is actually just as good as weapons though 04:29 <+sorear> Since DS are worse at UC than minotaurs, I predict that even less than 8/129 will win with UC titles 04:29 < Vandal> The only reason I know is because I came into IRC and people told me 04:30 <+due> UC is the best in-game. 04:31 < Mu_> UC is extremely good at high skill levels, but it's trash for the early game unless you pick up confusing touch, and it all but forces you to forgo shields and heavy armour 04:31 < Mu_> it's not for everyone 04:31 < Vandal> Mu that wasn't my experience on my Troll.. but those are Trolls :) 04:31 < Vandal> I was thinking the DS claws 3 would be especially good 04:31 < Vandal> and you've got a 50/50 chance of getting thme 04:31 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31 < Vandal> them 04:31 < Cryp71c> Moo 04:32 <+sorear> well, the DS claws chance is going to fall 04:32 < Vandal> Oh? 04:32 <+sorear> every DS is guaranteed to get exactly one slot-loss mutation 04:32 <+sorear> right now, there are only 2 3-level slot-loss mutations 04:33 <+sorear> after I get done with the DS new mutation brainstorms, there will be 7 or so 04:33 < Vandal> oh neat 04:33 < Vandal> so I assume not all of them will boost UC then 04:33 < Cryp71c> sorear, I wanted to talk to you about something earlier... 04:33 < Cryp71c> and now I can't remember what. 04:34 < Cryp71c> it had something to do with beam code.. 04:34 < Twinge> Also keep in mind that UC means you won't be using any randart weapons, which can give you some very useful bonuses. 04:34 < Vandal> that effect is mitigated somewhat by your other mutations 04:34 < Vandal> resistances seem very common in the DS I keep rolling 04:35 < Cryp71c> Vandal, heat and cold are, the others seem to be rarer, if non-existant. 04:35 < Vandal> I did get a Life Prot 3 once 04:35 < Cryp71c> sorear, perhaps it was whether or not stinking_cloud was used as a beam type by anything other than meph cloud 04:35 < Cryp71c> do you know? 04:35 < Vandal> Dunno what the odds are on that 04:36 < Cryp71c> Vandal, considering the importance of Life Prot, hopefully pretty rare. 04:37 < Vandal> Seems like sprouting horns is almost a reason to re-roll 04:37 <+sorear> why? 04:37 < Cryp71c> Vandal, horns are the best UC mut available. 04:37 < Cryp71c> better than claws 04:37 < Vandal> Seriously? 04:37 < Cryp71c> yes 04:37 <+sorear> Horns work with weapons 04:37 <+sorear> and armor 04:37 < Cryp71c> yeah 04:37 <+sorear> claws require you to be unarmed 04:38 <+sorear> claws 3 removes the gloves slot 04:38 < Vandal> claws stack with your base damage and are enhanced further by your UC speed bonus 04:38 <+sorear> so it's not like you're gaining a slot like this 04:38 <+sorear> Horn attacks are a FREE ACTION 04:38 < Cryp71c> Vandal, horns are free attacks 04:38 <+sorear> speed bonus? they don't need them 04:38 < Cryp71c> sorear, any idea on my aforementioned question? 04:38 < Vandal> I mean obviously I cannot parse this, but it would seem like the over 50 rounds you would get a lot more bonus damage out of claws than horns 04:38 <+sorear> Cryp71c: no clue 04:39 <+due> I <3 horns.. 04:39 < Vandal> because the claws work every time~ 04:39 <+sorear> Vandal: claws add +6 damage to every punch, horns add +20 damage once every 2-3 attacks 04:40 <+sorear> the claws are more consistant, sure 04:40 < Vandal> So the speed bonus to training UC would make you gore more often in addition to the increased aux attack rate? 04:40 < Cryp71c> Vandal, not to mention with horn you can still wield weapons and get bonuses, which are important late game 04:40 <+sorear> yes 04:40 < Vandal> Ok that does sound hot :) 04:40 < Vandal> I just never noticed horns on my mino doing much for me 04:40 < Vandal> I did let the UC train up to around 8 or 10 too 04:41 <+due> however, blade hands minotaur <3 04:41 < Vandal> yeah I could see that 04:41 <+due> And they told me it couldn't be done! MWHAAHAHAHa. 04:41 * due coughs. 04:42 < Vandal> Well yeah, DS seems really cool and interesting 04:42 <+due> Okay, back in a bit. 04:42 < Vandal> What will your other slot muts be like? Flying? 04:43 < Vandal> Amphibious? 04:43 < Vandal> flipper feet :) 04:43 < TGW> an amphibious foot slot would be cool 04:44 < TGW> if not encroaching on mf 04:44 < Vandal> well they already get troll regen and spriggan metabolism possibly 04:44 < Vandal> also spriggan or centaur speed, I couldn't tell from the text 04:45 < Vandal> not like stealing from other races is a bad thing :) 04:45 < TGW> both 04:45 < TGW> on successive levels 04:45 < TGW> but I'm pretty sure that's out 04:46 < TGW> +going to be 04:46 < Vandal> ah 04:46 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:46 < Vandal> not really sure why they get a bonus to Necromancy, Fire, or Poison magics 04:47 < Vandal> At least under the new system, with cold being a possible archtype 04:47 < TGW> welcome to the eronarn club 04:49 < Twinge> Should be a small bonus to both Fire and Ice. IIRC Eronarn agreed with that as possibility. 04:49 < Vandal> I think Poison should be reformed into Corruption and be the "demonic" magic :) The Undead can keep their Necromancy 04:52 <+due> Vandal: We''ve got something like that planned already. 04:52 < Vandal> woot 04:52 <+due> Poison -> Alchemy, covering acid, miasma, poison, other nasty effects like that. 04:53 < Vandal> It did need broadened 04:53 < Vandal> Demonic magic could be something else entirely 04:58 < Cryp71c> Anyone here particularly familiar with the beam code? 04:59 <+due> Cryp71c: I don't really know it at all; what's your question, thoguh? 05:02 < Cryp71c> due, trying to figure out if anything other than meph cloud uses the stinking_cloud beam 05:02 <+due> Cryp71c: No, just meph. 05:02 <+due> BEAM_POTION_STINKING_CLOUD? 05:02 <+due> Hm, evaporate probably does. 05:02 <+due> But that uses a slightly different targetting system. 05:04 < Eronarn> anyone know what dpeg was looking for me for? 05:04 < Eronarn> Vandal: I don't think demonic magic needs its own kind of magic. It fits well as it is currently - a flavor for spells. 05:05 < TGW> off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure evaporate has the same targeting issue as meph 05:05 < TGW> but I don't use it as much, so I couldn't tell you 05:05 < Vandal> Yeah, it was more of a "wow Poison is really limited" thing to begin with 05:05 < Vandal> Then I had some ideas about bringing Hellfire into more player spells.. :) 05:06 < Eronarn> sorear: As for DS slot loss muts we should go ahead and get all of them in - we're just missing hooves / wings, yeah? 05:06 < Eronarn> People will complain less about claws when those are all in 05:06 <+due> Vandal: We're trying to move away frmo Hellfire, actually. 05:06 <+due> WINGS 05:06 < Vandal> oh 05:06 <+due> You're doing Wings?! 05:06 <+due> <33333. 05:06 < TGW> due: everywhere? 05:06 <+due> TGW: It's pointless and overpowered and was only introduced because over rF+++ power creep. 05:06 < TGW> cool 05:07 < Eronarn> due: There are two options for wings: A) wing buffet attack B) wings = physical flight of some kind. 05:07 < Eronarn> Could be both. 05:07 <+due> I like both. 05:07 <+due> Actually 05:07 <+due> i like a) wherein you can blow enemies back a step depending on weight and your strength. 05:07 < TGW> do draconians have wings? 05:07 < Cryp71c> due, yeah that's just for potions 05:08 < Eronarn> TGW: yes 05:08 < Cryp71c> that are evap'd, I think 05:08 < TGW> ok 05:08 <+due> Cryp71c: It's a misnomer :) 05:08 < Eronarn> TGW: i don't consider maintaining consistency with Dr worth it because Dr suck 05:08 <+due> Cryp71c: Rain uses BEAM_POTION_RAIN when rain doesn't even have a beam spell. 05:08 < Eronarn> we could just say DS wings are actually functional and much bigger 05:08 <+due> Cryp71c: Also, I pm'd you. 05:09 < TGW> could make it give cfly and the buffet 05:09 < TGW> and let dr have it 05:09 < TGW> or yeah, that 05:09 <+due> Draconian wings are like the wings on the little caterpillar in A Bug's Life. 05:09 <+due> "I'm beautiful butterfly!". 05:10 <+due> Cryp71c: What email do you want used in the commit? 05:10 < Eronarn> let draconians wear armor :( 05:11 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has quit [] 05:12 < Vandal> Draconians and Demigods.. bloogh 05:12 < TGW> what? those are both cool 05:12 < Vandal> Dracs a lot more so 05:12 < Vandal> Demi are just a challenge game 05:13 < TGW> dgtm is good 05:13 < TGW> bonus hp and extreme form damage, see 05:13 <+due> Sigh. 05:14 < Eronarn> Vandal: You don't know what 'challenge game' means. 05:14 <+due> Dracs are challenge game enough :( 05:15 < Vandal> Something you do because you think Crawl is "too easy" 05:15 < Vandal> I would put Ogres and Demigods in the same bracket :) 05:16 < Cryp71c> due, same as on my reg, burnhamrobertp@gmail.com 05:16 < Vandal> well.. maybe not.. no gods hurts a lot, but ogre hurts more 05:16 <+due> Cryp71c: Ack, okay. 05:17 <+due> I caught the push just in time. :) 05:17 <+due> Cryp71c: You might want to change your config for username and email for your git, otherwise your commit messages are slightly odd :) 05:17 < CIA-81> burnhamrobertp * r31d6aa605a2c /crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Fix monster-cast Fireball causing suicide. 05:17 <+due> Hooray, it's fixed! Finally! 05:18 < Vandal> :[ 05:18 < Vandal> a day late and a dollar short 05:18 <+due> Hehehe. 05:18 < ogaz> have gotten one of each to the mid-late game, demigods are better than ogres because at least you have some durability 05:18 < Cryp71c> due, er, wha? 05:18 < TGW> either I'm making irregular stealth rolls, or rod of striking is really really loud 05:18 < Vandal> due, your stupid mega-Dowan suicide bombed me 05:19 < Vandal> yesterday 05:19 < TGW> is there a reason for that? 05:19 <+due> Vandal: Yes, yes, I know. I changed the spells. 05:19 < Vandal> woo 05:19 <+due> It's stone arrow and throw icicle now, which are probably just as bad :) 05:19 < Vandal> at least they can miss 05:19 <+due> But they're innaccurate and not particularly damageful at that HD. 05:19 <+due> But fireball was thematically *so good*. 05:19 < Vandal> Fireball owns 05:19 < Vandal> Way too hard for a D4 scrub to be using it 05:19 < Cryp71c> due, which config / email in git? 05:20 <+due> Cryp71c: git config user.name YourName 05:20 <+due> Cryp71c: git config user.email YourEmail 05:20 <+pointless_> How do the monster stone arrow and throw icicle damage functions compare? 05:20 < Cryp71c> ohhhh 05:20 <+due> Cryp71c: That way, the next time you use git-format-patch, we can just apply it instead of tweaking author info :) 05:20 <+due> pointless_: I've no idea, actually, but 3d10 is probably a bit much at D:4. 05:20 < TGW> yeah, rod of striking is pretty consistent in making everything in los wake up 05:21 <+pointless_> Just wondering if there was a difference besides the beam color. I guess the range is different 05:21 <+due> What's our thoought on venom bows branding ammunition as such? 05:21 <+due> (Permabranding.) 05:21 < Eronarn> due: pass 05:22 <+due> Get rid of it? 05:22 <+due> It's easil done. 05:22 < Eronarn> due: if i were going to add anything to venom as a brand, it would be a poison-magic based chance of a better poison 05:23 <+due> Eronarn: this is allready the existant case. 05:23 <+due> Eronarn: (Permabranding). 05:23 <+due> I am asking if we should remove it or not. 05:23 < Eronarn> huh, never noticed 05:23 < Eronarn> remove 05:23 < Eronarn> no reason for it, really 05:23 <+greensnark> due: Can I haz increased chance of Dowan+Duvessa? 05:24 <+greensnark> You can special case it with if you.name() == 'greensnark' 05:24 <+greensnark> I've met them once, exactly, and they were in orc partying with 2000 orcs 05:24 <+greensnark> So I left and died before I could get back :P 05:24 < Eronarn> we should add a mage named Andrew with alistair's intoxication, clearly 05:24 < TGW> you can have my dowan and duvessa 05:25 <+due> greensnark: Hehehe, see, hal the time I'm unsure if you're being serious or not; if you are, I'll do it. 05:25 < Vandal> His flavour text can be "PARTY HARD" ? 05:25 < Vandal> speech 05:25 <+greensnark> Well, I never get uniques :/ 05:25 < purge> @whereis greensnark 05:25 < Gretell> greensnark the Infuser (L10 OgEn), a worshipper of Sif Muna, is currently on Lair:1 after 11972 turns. 05:26 <+greensnark> Can't play old versions :P 05:26 < purge> waiting for a patch to break save compat so you can restart ? 05:26 < purge> :P 05:26 < purge> oh it already has? :) 05:26 <+greensnark> Yep! 05:26 <+greensnark> Hmm, what should I play today 05:26 <+due> Go kill yourself, already! 05:26 < purge> OgWn? 05:26 <+due> greensnark: HaHu. 05:26 <+greensnark> HaHu has been easified, no? :) 05:26 <+due> greensnark: I would like your input on slings, shields, etc. 05:26 <+due> Not really easified, but it's fun now. 05:26 <+greensnark> Ok, HaHu it is 05:26 <+due> Instead of "oh I just ground my eyeballs into a fine pulp with a spoon". 05:27 <+pointless_> What happened to HaHu? 05:27 < Vandal> They still aren't good with any real melee weapons but Long Blades :) 05:27 <+greensnark> Wow, that's a generous dose of sling bullets 05:27 < Vandal> pointless_ I lobbied for them to get more hp and shield apt 05:27 < Vandal> also they start with a buckler now 05:27 <+due> More HP, better shields apt, start with a buckler, sling bullets are more common, and they start with +1 sling bullets. 05:27 < Eronarn> lobbied for them to be EASYMODE CHEATERS!!1 05:27 <+due> Eronarn: STFU. 05:27 < Eronarn> i remember back in my day when halflings were half a race 05:28 < Eronarn> and that actually meant something 05:28 <+pointless_> I was lobbying to genocide them, this is what I get for not working on crawl for a while... 05:28 <+greensnark> due: purge just requested that I turn off easy mode :P 05:28 < Mu_> nerf halflings 05:28 <+due> What easy mode? 05:28 < Eronarn> pointless_: Jiyva ate all the Fedhas altars, sorry. Now it is the god of slime molds and lichen, too. 05:28 < Vandal> pointless_ there are a lot more really cool changes in the works for them, possibly in .7 05:28 <+due> Vandal has some nice ideas. 05:28 < ogaz> halflings should be as good ogres 05:28 < purge> due: i was referring to HaHu vs. what greensnark usually plays 05:29 <+pointless_> Cool halfling changes: death 05:29 <+due> With a name like that, you can tell Vandal is a slings user. 05:29 < ogaz> *as good as 05:29 <+due> purge: Hehehehe. 05:29 <+due> Halflings are staying for 0.6 :D 05:29 <+pointless_> oh well 05:29 < ogaz> :( 05:29 < Vandal> Victory 05:30 < Eronarn> pointless_: something else you may have missed: 05:30 < Eronarn> @??snapping turtle 05:30 < Gretell> snapping turtle (t) | Speed: 9 (act: 80%) | HD: 10 | Health: 30-90 | AC/EV: 16/5 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | XP: 152. 05:31 <+pointless_> My God. 05:31 <+due> Yes. We have turtles. :) 05:31 <+pointless_> @?? lobster 05:31 < Gretell> unknown monster: "lobster" 05:31 <+due> No lobsters yet. 05:31 <+pointless_> shoals are still incomplete I see 05:31 <+due> @??sea snake 05:31 < Gretell> sea snake (S) | Speed: 14 | HD: 10 | Health: 40-90 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 24(strong poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 871. 05:31 < Eronarn> ...whoah 05:31 < ogaz> pointless_: there are nasty Mf in shoals now 05:31 < purge> @??alligator snapping turtle 05:31 < Gretell> alligator snapping turtle (t) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 16 | Health: 112-176 | AC/EV: 19/2 | Damage: 50 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(64) | XP: 638. 05:31 < Eronarn> ...whoah 05:31 < Twinge> @??anaconda 05:31 < Gretell> anaconda (S) | Speed: 18 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 4/16 | Damage: 30 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(44) | XP: 1136. 05:31 < ogaz> @??merfolk impaler 05:31 < Gretell> merfolk impaler (m) | Speed: 10 (atk: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 60-108 | AC/EV: 0/23 | Damage: 28 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(48) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1076. 05:32 < Twinge> @??black momba 05:32 < Gretell> unknown monster: "black momba" 05:32 <+due> @??vlad the merfolk impaler 05:32 < Twinge> @??black mamba 05:32 < Gretell> unknown monster: "vlad the merfolk impaler" 05:32 < Gretell> black mamba (S) | Speed: 18 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 4/15 | Damage: 20(medium poison) | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(28), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 454. 05:32 <+due> :( 05:32 <+due> greensnark: Where is Vlad! 05:32 < ogaz> due: make a unique! 05:32 <+greensnark> Vacationing in NH, I'm told 05:32 <+due> Requires new merfolk unique! 05:32 <+greensnark> due: New uniques are welcome :) 05:32 <+greensnark> Ilsuiw gets lonesome, you know 05:32 < purge> a merfolk necromancer?? 05:32 <+greensnark> She has to go up and down Shoals all by herserl 05:32 < purge> with vampiric draining? 05:32 <+greensnark> And all she manages is to get herself killed by every adventurer 05:32 < ogaz> !apt mf ecro 05:32 < Henzell> Could not understand "ecro" 05:32 < ogaz> !apt mf necro 05:32 < Henzell> Mf (SK_NECROMANCY)=150 05:32 <+pointless_> What happened to Polyphemus? Get his eye poked out? 05:33 < ogaz> nobody would do that 05:33 <+greensnark> Polyphemus is even more useless 05:33 < purge> ogaz: except a uniquely evil merfolk npc 05:33 <+greensnark> I could give him injections of badass though 05:33 < Eronarn> why does polyphemus even exist 05:33 <+greensnark> But I don't know how to make him interesting 05:34 < purge> greensnark: he can throw sheep at the player 05:34 <+greensnark> What would be interesting for Polyphemus to do 05:34 < ogaz> greensnark: please do that, he fits in shoals and the death yak band is <3 05:34 <+due> Throw sheep. 05:34 <+greensnark> purge: <3 05:34 <+due> Oh man that's so awesmoe. 05:34 < ogaz> throw death yaks 05:34 <+greensnark> He could throw death yaks <3 05:34 <+greensnark> I love it 05:34 < ogaz> greensnark: hifive 05:34 <+due> He could throw the player into the death yaks! 05:34 * greensnark adds to todo. 05:34 < AceTetra> wielded hydra 05:34 <+due> It could be like Chrono Trigger combos with Ayla! 05:35 <+greensnark> It would be hilarious 05:35 < Vandal> CT is best game 05:36 <+greensnark> Sling + sling bullet = complete early game pwnage 05:36 < Cryp71c> woohooo, I'll just keep submitting little fixes left and right 05:36 <+greensnark> My usual character would have run to the hills on seeing a giant ant on D:2 05:36 < purge> sling bullet -> stones? 05:36 < ogaz> that's because OgEn is awful 05:36 < Vandal> you may want to save your +1 bullets for Ogres and Priests :) 05:36 * ogaz has been OgMo/Xom instead 05:36 <+greensnark> Actually 05:36 <+greensnark> !lg . OgEn s=ckiller 05:36 < Henzell> 2 games for greensnark (OgEn): 2x quitting 05:36 <+greensnark> OgEn is too easy 05:37 <+greensnark> The new Og I mean 05:37 <+greensnark> !lg . OgEn s=place 05:37 < Henzell> 2 games for greensnark (OgEn): 1x D:12, 1x Lair:1 05:37 <+due> Why not OgPr of Zin? 05:37 <+greensnark> Not exactly early game there 05:37 < ogaz> I've found that statue form is really good for ogres 05:38 <+greensnark> First character in recent memory that sneered at hasted Jessica and annihilated her 05:38 < purge> greensnark i think that you need to play ironman on this one 05:38 <+greensnark> Oh no :) 05:39 * greensnark doesn't believe in self-imposed restrictions. 05:39 <+greensnark> Well, apart from character choice :P 05:39 <+due> greensnark: mlua error: ...ages/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/luamark.lua:24: 05:39 <+due> attempt to index local 'table' (a nil value) 05:39 <+greensnark> Eek 05:39 <+greensnark> Did I break it? 05:40 <+due> I don't know... 05:40 <+due> I can't work ou what it is. 05:40 <+greensnark> Repro steps? 05:40 <+due> greensnark: http://sprunge.us/QjGd &Lenter_trove_1 05:42 < Vandal> Potential consolidated blade table, needs work, feel free to edit the table itself if you think you've got a good idea 05:42 < Vandal> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:item:blade_consolidation 05:43 < Vandal> or copy it and make a new table with your method 05:43 < Vandal> bed! 05:43 <+greensnark> due: Apparently toll_quantity is not a number? 05:43 <+greensnark> lua_marker exec error: ./dat/clua/lm_trove.lua:49: attempt to compare string with number 05:43 <+due> I don't comprehend that, either 05:43 <+due> It sould be 05:43 <+due> Oh.. 05:44 <+due> Wrong order. 05:44 <+due> Is that causing the error? 05:44 <+due> Ahh, it is. Odd 05:44 <+greensnark> Looks like it 05:44 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 05:45 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:45 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 05:45 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:45 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 05:45 < Twinge> ... 05:46 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:46 <+greensnark> She loves me... she loves me not 05:46 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 05:46 < Twinge> So, what should I do to hand over the modified mon-data file for the experience tweaks? 05:46 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:46 <+due> Eifel: Net problems? 05:46 < Eifel> No.-) 05:46 <+due> Twinge: Commit it locally with git, then do git format-patch. 05:47 < Eifel> Just trying to get warm with Empathy 05:47 < Napkin> spammer! 05:47 < Eifel> pah 05:48 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 05:48 <+due> Spam spam spammity spam! 05:48 -!- Enne [n=enne@cpe-076-182-101-004.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:48 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:48 * Napkin cuffs eifel to the chair * 05:49 <+due> Kinky :o 05:50 * Napkin puts the coffee cup to the other side of the room * 05:50 < Napkin> :-P 05:50 <+greensnark> Ok, amulet of rage, gg 05:50 <+due> Oooh, nasty. 05:50 < Eifel> Napkin: Du hund!!!! 05:50 < purge> i was about to say that 05:50 < purge> haha 05:50 <+due> YAY! 05:50 <+due> @whereis greensnark 05:50 < Gretell> greensnark the Vandal (L4 HaHu), a worshipper of Elyvilon, is currently on D:3 after 2088 turns. 05:51 <+due> Ely? 05:51 <+greensnark> First altar :P 05:51 <+greensnark> Besides, I don't need divine assistance :P 05:52 <+due> Have you found any sling bullets? 05:52 <+greensnark> Only the starting lot 05:52 <+greensnark> But I can annihilate most everything with plain old stones, so 05:52 < Cryp71c> How do you guys determine which 'bug reports' should actually get done, since some of them are subjective and each developer's opinion might differ on the subject? 05:53 <+sorear> good old fashioned triage 05:53 < Eronarn> Cryp71c: darts skill 05:53 < TGW> eronarn: what skill? 05:53 <+greensnark> D:3 and no uniques yet 05:53 < Cryp71c> Eronarn, that's what I thought 05:53 < Cryp71c> lol 05:53 < Eronarn> TGW: Exactly. 05:53 * greensnark gives due a meaningful look. 05:53 <+greensnark> Well, Jessica doesn't count :P 05:54 < purge> glowing bullets :O 05:54 < purge> lol 05:54 <+due> What were they? 05:54 < Ashenzari> Make it harder to eat dangerous chunks (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=370) by TGW 05:55 < TGW> does ammo use glowing in the same way weapons do? 05:55 < TGW> or is it branded-only? 05:55 <+due> It denotes branded or enchanted. 05:55 < purge> due: i think he passed them up 05:55 < purge> on purpose 05:55 < purge> hehe 05:55 <+due> purge: He's a masochist, our snark. 05:55 <+greensnark> What? They were bolts :P 05:55 < purge> oh bolts! duh 05:55 <+due> Oh, not bullets? 05:55 <+due> Why are you 05:55 <+due> hitting it 05:55 <+due> with a sling? 05:56 <+greensnark> It needed a whipping 05:56 <+greensnark> And I lacked a whip 05:56 <+due> Pikel! 05:56 <+due> He can give you one. 05:56 < TGW> are the inconsistencies between needle brands and other brands going to stick around? 05:56 <+due> Twinge: No. 05:56 <+due> TGW: Er, no. 05:56 < TGW> the pre-identification I mean 05:57 <+due> !lg * ikiller=Pikel s=killer 05:57 < Henzell> 40 games for * (ikiller=Pikel): 25x a slave, 15x Pikel 05:57 <+due> greensnark: ---^ 05:57 < TGW> really, slaves more? 05:57 < purge> and no exp for killing slaves 05:57 <+due> Slaves are deadlier. 05:57 <+due> @??slave 05:57 < Gretell> slave (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 130. 05:57 <+due> @??pikel 05:57 < Gretell> Pikel (K) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 9 | Res: magic(24) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 1050. 05:58 < purge> it didn't give greensnark exp? because he worships elly? 05:58 < TGW> pikel's got more hp and a weapon 05:58 <+due> purge: No, they don't give EXP. 05:58 <+due> TGW: But there are a larger number of slaves. 05:58 < purge> due: ah ok i was looking at gretell 05:58 < TGW> I don't imagine most try to kill them 05:58 <+due> they're a bit of canon fodder. 05:58 < TGW> !lg * ikiller=pikel killer=slave s=name 05:58 < Henzell> 25 games for * (ikiller=pikel killer=slave): 3x heteroy, 2x Leibowitz, 2x mumblerit, 2x saren, 1x clouded, 1x Kyrris, 1x randart, 1x pingpong, 1x poop, 1x MarvinPA, 1x sanka, 1x TGW, 1x Sebi, 1x polystyrus, 1x omil, 1x Namaste, 1x LordSloth, 1x Cryptic, 1x hash, 1x b0rsuk 05:59 < TGW> !lg * ikiller=pikel killer=slave -tv 05:59 < Henzell> 25. polystyrus, XL4 TrMo, T:3347 requested for FooTV. 05:59 < TGW> canon fodder sounds like it should be a pun 05:59 <+due> TGW: It's a canonical pun! 06:00 < ogaz> !lg * killer=polyphemus 06:00 < Henzell> 3. syllogism the Sneak (L1 SpAs), hit from afar by Polyphemus (large rock) on D:24 on 2008-08-01, with 48 points after 3531 turns and 0:27:37. 06:00 < TGW> I have no idea what's going on in this demo 06:00 < ogaz> !lm * uniq=polyphemus 06:00 < Henzell> 1441. [2010-01-09] Ahrin the Blocker (L21 DrPa) killed Polyphemus on turn 99106. (Shoal:4) 06:00 < TGW> he starts to head to a corridor, then walks back past the slaves to get to pikel 06:00 < ogaz> polyphemus hasn't killed anyone in over a year, wow 06:01 <+due> He needs to get a buff. 06:01 < Twinge> due: So uh, 'Write commit to file'? Patching seems to want to be between two files which seems awkward... 06:01 < TGW> !lg * ikiller=pikel killer=slave -tv -2 06:01 < Henzell> 24. saren, XL4 DrPa, T:3078 requested for FooTV. 06:02 < Twinge> Er, between 2 commits, I mean 06:02 <+due> Twinge: "git format-patch -n 1" should do it 06:02 <+due> Hm, not -n1. 06:03 <+sorear> try -`1 06:03 <+sorear> -1 06:03 < AceTetra> does everything need to kill players, or just uniques? 06:03 < Eronarn> Everything. 06:03 < TGW> acetetra: uniques, and probably branches 06:03 < Eronarn> Always. 06:03 <+sorear> AceTetra: Everything needs to be dangerous 06:03 <+due> Everything needs to be dangerous. 06:03 <+due> If uniques aren't killing players, they are boring nad need to be buffed or deleted. 06:03 < Eronarn> Even our danger is dangerous 06:03 <+sorear> Giant eyeballs kill nobody, but they're still dangerous enough as is 06:04 <+due> sorear: I got the okay fro mgreensnarp for "Duvessa (berserk)" "player (while paralysed)". 06:04 < AceTetra> !lg * killer=death cob s=xl 06:04 < Henzell> One game for * (killer=death cob): 1x 26 06:04 <+due> Uniques are more important to have kills because otherwise people will just ignore them or not find them interesting. 06:04 < AceTetra> good point about the eyeball though 06:04 <+due> !lg * place=~volcano 06:05 < Henzell> 1. TGW the Destroyer (L13 HECj), worshipper of Vehumet, engulfed by a cloud of freezing vapour in Volcano on 2009-12-28, with 50092 points after 33400 turns and 2:08:21. 06:05 <+due> . . . 06:05 < TGW> due: that was so awful 06:05 * due laughs. Forever. 06:05 < Eronarn> iron e 06:05 < TGW> please never call up that game again 06:05 <+due> !lm * br.enter=~volcano 06:05 < Eronarn> !learn add volcano < Henzell> 1. TGW the Destroyer (L13 HECj), worshipper of Vehumet, engulfed by a cloud of freezing vapour in Volcano on 2009-12-28, with 50092 points after 33400 turns and 2:08:21. 06:06 < Twinge> sorear / due: Okay, then where is the patch file created at? 06:06 <+due> Twinge: Should be 00001- in your current directory. 06:06 < purge> @?? edmund 06:06 < Gretell> Edmund (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 44 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 6 | Res: magic(21) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 211. 06:06 < Henzell> 43. [2010-01-06] Napkin the Warrior (L16 MDFi) entered a Volcano on turn 45371. (Volcano) 06:06 < Henzell> volcano[2/2]: < Henzell> 1. TGW the Destroyer (L13 HECj), worshipper of Vehumet, engulfed by a cloud of freezing vapour in Volcano on 2009-12-28, with 50092 points after 33400 turns and 2:08:21. 06:08 <+due> Only 43 volcano entries. I suppose that's okay. 06:08 < Twinge> due: Then assumedly I'm doing something wrong. It doesn't give any text when I do "git format-patch -1" and goes back to the command line. Tried it in both crawl-ref and crawl-ref/source. If I try the '-n 1' it fails with an error message. 06:08 <+due> Try -2? 06:08 <+due> Did you commit your changes? 06:10 < Twinge> Yes, but before updating to current, which is probably the problem, if I'm correctly assuming -1/etc. is the -X most recent commit 06:10 <+greensnark> Poisoned sling bullets! 06:10 < ogaz> !lg tgw place=volcano ktyp=cloud -tv 06:10 < Henzell> 1. TGW, XL13 HECj, T:33400 requested for FooTV. 06:11 <+due> Twinge: :| I don't know. 06:12 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 06:12 < Twinge> I used the gui to make the commit if the matters for some reason 06:13 <+due> type 'git log' and make sure your commit is there 06:13 <+due> If you committed and then updated, it might be a merge commit. 06:13 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:14 < Twinge> Yeah it's listed in the log 06:14 < Twinge> commit fb67a772f8ad2953388062da58edca17e0c33318 06:14 < Twinge> Author: unknown 06:14 < Twinge> Date: Fri Jan 8 21:52:48 2010 -0800 06:14 < Twinge> Monster experience gain tweaks to make gained 06:14 <+sorear> is it at the very top, though 06:15 <+due> Is it th etop commit? 06:15 < Twinge> 2nd from top 06:15 <+due> what's the top? 06:15 <+due> You need to do -2 anyway. 06:15 < Twinge> commit 545ebc7d4d6e530c231959ac1604f72f448164fe 06:15 < Twinge> Merge: fb67a77 31d6aa6 06:15 < Twinge> Author: unknown 06:15 < Twinge> Date: Fri Jan 8 21:58:24 2010 -0800 06:15 < Twinge> Merge branch 'master' of git://crawl-ref.git. 06:15 <+due> Yeah. 06:15 <+sorear> Twinge: git reset --hard fb67a77 06:16 <+sorear> git pull --rebase 06:16 <+due> Or, git reset --hard HEAD^ :) 06:16 <+sorear> If your repository is a leaf in the tree of clones, you should use --rebase on all pulls 06:17 <+due> Alternately, just always type git pull --rebase. 06:18 < Twinge> Okay, that puts it at the top of the log, but doesn't include any of today's commits. 06:19 <+due> It does--they should be underneath it. 06:20 < Twinge> The pull rebase didn't work, I think. 06:20 < Twinge> $ git pull --rebase 06:20 < Twinge> You asked me to pull without telling me which branch you 06:20 < Twinge> want to merge with, and 'branch.master.merge' in 06:20 < Twinge> your configuration file does not tell me either. Please 06:20 < Twinge> specify which branch you want to merge on the command line and 06:20 < Twinge> try again (e.g. 'git pull '). 06:20 < Twinge> See git-pull(1) for details. 06:21 <+due> O_o 06:21 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-114-135-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:22 -!- Siber [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:22 -!- Siber [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33 <+sorear> Twinge: well, try setting a branch then 06:33 < Twinge> Okay. Reverted my commit, then re-fetched recent commits, then made patch. 06:33 < Twinge> http://www.it-is-law.com/dump/0001-Tweak-monster-experience-gains-to-better-fit-actual-.patch 06:33 <+due> Hooray! 06:33 <+sorear> git pull --rebase origin/master 06:33 <+sorear> Twinge: you rewrote the patch? 06:33 <+sorear> completely? 06:34 <+sorear> How are you fetching recent commits? 06:34 < Twinge> sorear: Hmm? Via Git GUI; fetch and merge. 06:34 <+due> ... yuck. 06:34 <+due> :( 06:34 <+sorear> Fetching from where? 06:34 <+sorear> origin/master? 06:34 < Twinge> 'origin' 06:35 <+sorear> what branch are you on? 06:35 < Twinge> Fetch from origin, Merge to master 06:35 <+sorear> then use git pull --rebase origin/master 06:35 <+sorear> doesn't git gui have a little tickbox for --rebase? 06:36 <+due> Wahey! 06:36 <+due> It works! 06:36 * due dances with sorear. 06:36 <+due> Or at least, 5 potion of heal wounds... 06:38 < Twinge> I don't see anything for rebase, no. But it seemed to work fine; I reverted back to how it was ealrier today, then I updated to current trunk, then I commited my change, then I made a patch from that with 'git format-patch -1' from the command prompt. Though I think I figured out how to make the patch from GUI too; the file size is slightly different though, was checking what the difference was. 06:39 < Twinge> oh, they're the same patch, it just includes header information if done fromt he command line, and doesn't from GUI 06:40 < Twinge> And, damnit. it tried to revert the new turtles. lemme manually edit the patch I guess 06:42 < Twinge> Wonder why that didn't show up when I searched for mon-data in the commit list though. 06:43 <+due> :0 06:43 <+due> *:) 06:43 <+sorear> git gui confuses me 06:44 <+due> "There's a git gui?" 06:45 <+sorear> Twinge is using it 06:46 <+due> Yeah. 06:46 < purge> tortoise-git? 06:47 < purge> thats the one dpeg recommended to me anyways 06:47 <+due> msysgit is so much better :) 06:47 <+sorear> There's also an official git gui 06:49 < Twinge> Okay. There. http://www.it-is-law.com/dump/0001-Tweak-monster-experience-gains-to-better-fit-actual-.patch 07:01 <+due> Mu_: We're talking about putting rSlow-enchantment-only onto another amulet. 07:02 < Mu_> why not just use the current one then 07:02 <+due> Because that's boring on its own :) 07:03 < Mu_> i always regret to posting to the list :p 07:06 <+due> :D 07:06 <+due> No, you made a good point. 07:06 < Twinge> That patch is good to go, correct? I'm thinking the original out-of-order one would've actually worked fine, now, so I'll keep that in mind for the future... 07:07 <+due> Is there any objections to my applying it now? 07:10 < purge> I object! 07:11 < purge> :D 07:11 <+due> Twinge: I need a name+email. 07:12 < Twinge> This is probably bot-searchable? 07:12 <+due> Yeah. 07:12 <+due> Do you have a sourceforge account? 07:12 <+due> You can probably use that@users.sourceforge.net 07:13 < Twinge> Twinge // Jared Tinney // homelesspete@gmail.com 07:13 < Twinge> I have a seperate spammy-er email for stuff that is public 07:13 <+due> Hm. 07:13 <+due> :) 07:13 <+due> The commit message is apparently lost. 07:13 <+due> This doesn't look like format-patch output at all O_o 07:14 < Twinge> It's just missing the header, which I could re-add if you want 07:14 <+due> Ah. 07:14 <+due> Needs header. :) 07:14 <+due> I can't apply it without header! 07:14 <+due> Well, I can, but then I have to write a commit message and bah. 07:14 <+due> 07:15 < Twinge> k 07:16 < Twinge> Can I leave off the summary of insertions/deletions, because it's innacurate anyway? :P 07:16 <+due> Sure. 07:18 <+due> Food time! Will commit when I return. 07:18 < Twinge> http://www.it-is-law.com/dump/0001-Tweak-monster-experience-gains-to-better-fit-actual-.patch 07:18 <+due> Well, push. 07:18 <+due> Or. 07:19 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:21 <+due> Twinge: Pushed! 07:22 < CIA-81> homelesspete * r52122a89a5dc /crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Tweak monster experience gains to better fit actual monster difficulty. 07:22 <+due> Tada! 07:22 < Twinge> Cheers! 07:22 < purge> so overall is the patch a buff to exp gain? 07:23 <+due> purge: Both a buff and a nerf in some instances. 07:23 < Twinge> Is there a way to use a different name than homelesspete on the commit post? 07:23 <+due> Twinge: Different email address, :) 07:23 <+due> It's only for CIA, though. 07:23 < Twinge> Ah. 07:23 <+due> If you're going to be submitting a lot of patches I can edit the CIA nick lookup. 07:23 <+due> But... I'm lazy :) 07:24 <+due> okay, I'm off! 07:24 < Twinge> Maybe at a later date. Not urgent obviously. Cya. 07:25 < Twinge> purge: Overall it's fairly similar, just more sane. Wyverns are worth a little more, some rare stuff like gargoyles are worth more, oozes are worth slightly less, Wayne is worth a lot less, hill giants are worth less and cyclops worth more... 07:25 < Twinge> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:monster:experience 07:25 <+sorear> Twinge: I'm about to add you to the credits; what is your preferred name of attribution for non-IRC contexts? 07:26 < Twinge> sorear: I do go by Twinge all over the place online, but 'Jared Tinney' would probably be best I guess. Thanks. 07:27 <+sorear> yeah, I have to ask 07:27 <+sorear> there's a huge gulf of opinions here 07:30 <+sorear> it's amusing how low the bar for CREDITS is 07:30 < CIA-81> sorear * r40fad994a1b6 /crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Add Twinge to CREDITS 07:30 < Twinge> Hah. 07:31 <+sorear> true story: back in 0.3 when I got into CREDITS, I did it by adding a single extra case to the vault file *syntax highlighting definition* 07:31 < Twinge> Funny. 07:31 <+sorear> it wasn't even part of the Crawl deliverable 07:31 < Twinge> Why it took me one patch, a formula, *and* a few ideas! 07:32 <+sorear> and XP is end-user visible 07:42 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:47 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 08:18 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:27 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:40 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:48 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 08:52 -!- Siber [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:01 < Twinge> Hmm. Should beserkeritis still trigger when destroying a toadstool? That seems a little off, especially since you can auto-destroy them when auto-exploring 09:05 <+due> No. 09:06 <+due> Thanks for the reminder, though 09:06 <+due> I meant to disallow auto-kill with berserkitis. 09:06 < Twinge> By no you mean yes, I take it? ;) 09:12 <+due> Er. 09:12 <+due> Yes. 09:12 <+due> ... No? 09:15 < Twinge> Fnord: Jefferson Davis hides in the land of the unicorns to get the sharp amulet. 09:18 < Twinge> Should I Mantis that, or do you have it noted well enough? 09:18 <+due> It's noted :) 09:19 <+due> Will get around to it when I have killed this SpBe. 09:20 < Twinge> I have Berserkeritis on the Spriggan I'm playing right now too. It sucks ;O 09:21 < Twinge> Maybe I should've just been happy with Shouting. Oh well. I'll drown myself in some more mutation potions after I find some more packs of ugly things to convert, and spin the wheel again! 09:35 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["."] 09:35 <+due> And there he goes. 09:36 <+due> Sigh, poor lil' sprig. 09:38 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:39 < Twinge> I'm kinda urnning around just sticky-flames & stinging everything to death 09:47 <+due> Hm. 09:47 <+due> Wrath of Trog fail. 09:48 <+due> Oh bloody hell argh. 09:50 <+due> Wrath of trog doens't count as a *rage weapon. 09:52 < Twinge> Hmm. Well, the mutation roulette just gave me another level of beserkeritis when I was hoping for a removal ;O 09:53 < ogaz> it's Zin time! 09:54 < Twinge> I built up a pretty good set of muts too. I could probably jsut quaff some cure mutation and hope it removes beserk while leaving some good ones I guess. 09:55 < Twinge> Skill 8 in stabbing and 16 in UC are kinda going to waste for me fear of beserk-starving, hehe 09:55 < mr0t> cure mutation is probably a good bet 09:55 < mr0t> *unless* you can find an amulet of resist slowing 09:56 < mr0t> hrm, even then though, a spriggan might have food troubles eventually from all the zerking 09:56 < Twinge> Yeah. I mean, every time I fight anything I'll zerk almost 09:57 < mr0t> a potion of cure mutation removes what, like 6-8 mutations? 09:58 < Twinge> Seems like the berserkeritis percentages should be dropped slightly; 5%->4%, 15%->12%, 25%->20% 09:58 < Twinge> mr0t: 4-5 on average 09:58 < Twinge> Up to 7 09:59 < mr0t> hrm, i doubt that change would make much of a difference other than making the mutation less useful 09:59 < mr0t> either you can utilize it and you want to keep it, and might as well have 100% zerkrate, or you don't want it and will get rid of it 09:59 < Twinge> You think? Maybe. 10:00 < mr0t> yeah, it's not that simple, but still 10:00 < Twinge> Maybe only the first level, then. 10:00 < mr0t> maybe 3% --> 10% --> 20% 10:00 < mr0t> or yeah, just the first level 10:00 < Twinge> Or just not the 3rd. Something. 3-4% / 10-12% / 25% 10:01 < mr0t> hrm, or even better, how about random 10:01 < mr0t> 3-5%, 10-15%, 20-25% 10:01 < mr0t> sumn like that, I dunno 10:01 < mr0t> gah, law & order is starting 10:02 < Twinge> Mostly I just noticed how often it happened even at 5% - it would still happen quite a bit even at 3 or 4% 10:03 < mr0t> god fuckin damnit, i was reading the schedule for tomorrow 10:03 < mr0t> i hate when that happens. 10:04 < mr0t> yeah, you usually hit something at least 3 times, up to 10 or more 10:04 < mr0t> so for any one encounter your chance of berzerking is gonna be anywhere from 10 to 90% 10:04 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:05 < Twinge> I guess another way to phrase it is that the level of inconvience for someone that doesn't want it at 3-4% is still "high" 10:07 < Twinge> Way to remove only good mutations, cure mutation 10:07 <+due> ##crawl is that a-way! 10:07 < Twinge> True. 10:10 <+due> Twinge: Pushed 10:10 < CIA-81> due * r3000618dd579 /crawl-ref/source/travel.cc: Don't autokill with berserkitis (Twinge). 10:11 < Twinge> Bam. See, the entire conversation was dev relevant because of that! (*cough*) 10:23 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 10:23 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ 10:23 <@dpeg> cheers 10:23 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 10:23 <@dpeg> !messages 10:23 < Henzell> (1/2) ortoslon said (22h 49m 34s ago): i second removing rslow 10:23 <@dpeg> very good 10:23 <@dpeg> !messages 10:23 < Henzell> (1/1) Vandal said (4h 38m 53s ago): consolidated and trimmed Blades at the bottom: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:item:blade_consolidation 10:24 <@dpeg> saw 10:24 <@dpeg> !seen due 10:24 < Henzell> I last saw due at Sat Jan 9 09:10:11 2010 UTC (14m 35s ago) saying Twinge: Pushed on ##crawl-dev. 10:25 <@dpeg> we should add cryptic to the credits 10:29 <+due> hi 10:30 <+due> dpeg: I'm kinda here! 10:34 <@dpeg> I am also kind! 10:34 <+due> :) 11:14 <+due> dpeg: Ping! 11:17 <@dpeg> Pong! 11:34 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-114-135-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38 <@dpeg> due: mulching for branded ammo was made less than 100%, right? 11:44 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 11:46 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit [Client Quit] 11:47 <+due> dpeg: Yes, but not by me. 11:47 <@dpeg> cool 11:47 <@dpeg> can you point me off-hand to where the numbers are? 11:48 <+sorear> dpeg: beam.cc:drop_object 11:49 <+due> sorear is like our human grep.<3 11:50 <@dpeg> yes, let's all hear it for sorear :) 11:50 <@dpeg> !seen doy 11:50 < Henzell> I last saw doy at Fri Jan 8 23:27:38 2010 UTC (11h 23m 13s ago) saying should probably not be displayed like that though on ##crawl-dev. 11:51 <+doy> what's up? 11:53 <@dpeg> Yesterday, before sleeping, I had an idea for the layouts, but I forgot it already :/ 11:56 <+due> doy: what does gi* mean on git branch? 11:56 <+doy> due: ? 11:56 < Mu_> i liked that fragmented rooms layout linked yesterday 11:57 <+due> doy: "git branch" gi* master \n troves \n wizlab 11:57 <+doy> due: no idea 11:57 <+due> Hm. 11:57 <+due> Mu_: I didn't see that :o 11:57 <+doy> due: http://doom.chaosforge.org/images/5.png 11:58 <+due> What's =? 11:59 <+due> It's an interesting layout... I'mm not sure how it would work crawlishly. 11:59 < Mu_> crypt ;-) 11:59 <+doy> = is lava 11:59 <+doy> yes, i intended it as the default crypt layout 11:59 <+due> Oooh, nice. 11:59 <+due> It wouldn't be too difficult to do, either. 11:59 <+due> You just have to blow square bubble rooms. 12:00 <+doy> would work well to give zombies and such more chance to get to melee range 12:00 <+doy> since very few things in crypt have ranged attacks 12:00 <+due> agree 12:00 < Mu_> it'd be cool if every branch could have its own unique look 12:01 <+due> I think ero is working on a layout? 12:01 <+doy> Mu_: yes 12:01 <+doy> i have a bunch of ideas 12:01 <+doy> that i'm going to make a wiki page about tomorrow 12:01 < Mu_> awesome :) 12:01 <+greensnark> <3 12:01 <+due> Well, swamp, shoals, do. 12:01 <+doy> due: but swamp's sucks 12:01 <+doy> (: 12:01 <+due> It would be great if Lair could have themed levels. 12:01 <+greensnark> Lair! 12:01 <+doy> shoals is good though 12:01 <+due> Swamp's is fine. 12:01 <+doy> due: it's really not 12:01 <+due> Actually 12:02 <+due> You know wwhat would be great in snake? 12:02 < Mu_> snake should be bendier 12:02 <+due> Completely circular rooms with winding corridors. 12:02 <+doy> random rock walls and a rectangular border don't make any sense 12:02 <+due> doy: Agree, though. 12:02 <+doy> due: awesome, snake was one of the ones i didn't have many ideas for 12:02 <+due> greensnark: Any ideas on how to start coding up a layout? I've never looked at it before. 12:02 <+due> For some reason, when I think of snake pit, I think of circular rooms and windy corridors between them. 12:03 <+greensnark> due: builder_by_branch decdes what level builder to use 12:03 <+greensnark> Just add build_snaky_level or similar 12:03 <+due> I meant in the actual layout code. ;) 12:03 <+due> I know there's join_the_dots... 12:03 <+due> Will I have to write a windy_join_the_dots? 12:03 <+greensnark> The existing primitives are rather simplistic 12:04 <+greensnark> So yes 12:04 <+due> Bugger. 12:04 <+due> I think this will require dpeg. 12:04 <+due> dpeg! Mathematical way to generate pretty curved corridors! 12:04 <+due> I will do up a vault with how I think it would look nice. 12:04 <+greensnark> Serpentine corridors 12:05 <+greensnark> I think new layouts would really rock Crawl <3 12:07 <+due> Maybe we can reuse the island generator from shoals to build circular bubbles/ 12:07 <+greensnark> You can :) 12:07 <+greensnark> I played with the Shoals generator as a separate program before adding it to the Crawl tree 12:07 <+due> Heh. 12:08 <+greensnark> Makes it easier to test stuff when you can just recompile and it dumps a map to a text file 12:08 <+greensnark> Instead of starting, & 12:08 <+greensnark> &~ # et 12:08 <+due> Sounds like a good idea. 12:08 <+due> I suck at these sorts of things, though. 12:08 <+greensnark> We should probably add a crawl -script generate_place Snake:1 12:09 <+greensnark> That just dumps the map 12:09 <+greensnark> You'll still have Crawl's killer link time though :P 12:09 <+due> Heh. 12:09 <+due> Did old shoals have pretty circles? 12:09 <+due> I forget. 12:09 < cbus> sup 12:09 <+due> I seem to remember that it did. 12:09 <+greensnark> Double overlapping ellipses 12:10 <+due> Ah 12:10 <+due> Well, we can reuse the curvy bit of said ellipses. 12:10 <+greensnark> "Frosumn's Sorcery, Part Four" <-- some of these book names are really cool 12:10 <+greensnark> But it doesn't mention how many parts there are total :P 12:13 <+due> Does the old soals code still exist? 12:13 <@dpeg> due: polar coordinates! 12:13 <@dpeg> also, more branches should use convergence 12:13 <+due> Polar cooordinates? 12:14 <+due> dpeg: I am pathetic at most forms of non-basic mathematics :) 12:14 <@dpeg> greensnark: hey, I wrote a Shoal map generator in C++ back then :) 12:14 <+due> dpeg: I believe that's what got used until recently, no? 12:15 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@85-131-24-201.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:15 <@dpeg> due: yes. My point was that I had a program which produced 80x70 arrays of characters. 12:15 <@dpeg> And I would play with the parameters. 12:16 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-114-135-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [No route to host] 12:17 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba_] by ChanServ 12:19 <+due> Can I disable city layouts for lair? 12:19 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yes, it's a lot nicer than waiting for Crawl to recompile and relink :) 12:19 <+greensnark> due: The idea was to have them more rarely, but do "ruins" 12:19 <+due> Hm. 12:20 <+greensnark> Is there a wiki page for new level layouts? 12:20 < CIA-81> greensnark * r40a5cf776b13 /crawl-ref/source/scripts/genlevel.lua: Script to generate a level and dump the map to dump-.map for inspection. 12:22 <@dpeg> greensnark: doy will make one 12:22 <@dpeg> greensnark: do you know if we dump the level the player died on? 12:22 <+greensnark> Yes 12:23 <+greensnark> There's a file called .map that's dumped along with the morgue 12:23 <@dpeg> cool 12:23 <+greensnark> I think Haran added it when you asked :) 12:23 <+greensnark> And zelgadis added code to track the vaults used and where 12:24 <+due> Which doens't work perfectly at the minute. 12:24 <+greensnark> That should also be dumped at end of game 12:24 <+greensnark> due: Why's that? 12:24 <+greensnark> @??polar bear 12:24 < Gretell> polar bear (U) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 35-56 | AC/EV: 7/8 | Damage: 20, 5, 5 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(28), cold | XP: 249 | Sp: berserker rage. 12:25 <+due> greensnark: Doing a dump prints an assert failure instead of the list of vaults. :) 12:25 <+greensnark> @??Wayne 12:25 < Gretell> Wayne (@) | Speed: 7 | HD: 17 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 22 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(113) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1246 | Sp: pain, cantrip, smiting, minor healing. 12:25 <+greensnark> due: It worked for me in Eifel's save ;0 12:25 <+greensnark> Er: :) 12:25 <+due> Hm. 12:25 <@dpeg> due: depends on who's using it :) 12:25 <+greensnark> It was very useful as well <3 12:25 <+due> Yes, I can imagine 12:26 <+greensnark> Until then I was inclined to attribute the bug to cosmic rays :P 12:26 <+due> Or Napkin unplugged the "more magic" button? 12:26 <+greensnark> Or that, yes 12:29 <+due> I ... don't understand any of the old shoals builder. 12:29 <@dpeg> hey! 12:30 <+due> - if ( (x-i)*(x-i)*b*b + (y-j)*(y-j)*a*a 12:30 <+due> - <= a*a*b*b/2 + roll_dice(2, a*a*b*b)/4 + random2(3) ) 12:30 <+due> It is pretty 12:30 <+due> but... I do not even comprehend what it means :) 12:30 < syllogism> :P 12:31 <+due> I need a "make circle here" function. :0 12:31 <+due> syllogism: :( 12:31 <@dpeg> the set of all (x,y) with x^2/a^2 + y^2/b^2 = 1 is an ellipse with axes lengths a and b 12:32 <+due> aaahhh 12:32 * due very confused! 12:32 <@dpeg> now, you don't want your ellipse to be centered at the origin, so you offset x and y 12:32 <+greensnark> I was taught this in school :P 12:32 <@dpeg> greensnark: you come from a country with three milennia background in mathematics 12:33 <@dpeg> due lives in Australia 12:33 <+due> No, I just have a very bad head for mathematics, apparnetly. 12:33 < syllogism> pretty sure they teach maths in Australia too :P 12:33 <@dpeg> due: and instead of the fractions, you multiply everything by a^2b^2 for computational purposes 12:33 <+due> Hm. 12:34 <+due> I wonder if I could just steal _place_elipse and use it! 12:34 <@dpeg> syllogism: I think they stop at addition and subtraction of natural numbers <100. 12:34 <+greensnark> I remember when I was being taught multiplication tables 12:34 <+greensnark> We had to memorise everything up to 12x12 12:34 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:34 <@dpeg> "What's a good ozzie to know more about these effing number things! Doesn't kill us kangaroos, eh?" 12:34 <+greensnark> And the teacher told us we were lucky we weren't in China, where the apparently memorise up to 16x16 or more :P 12:34 <@dpeg> greensnark: our elders had to learn up to 20x20 12:34 <@dpeg> hehe 12:35 < syllogism> greensnark: we only memorized up to 10x10 :( 12:35 < syllogism> what's 11x11? it's all a mystery to me 12:35 <+due> ... we have make_circle, hm. 12:35 <+due> Anyway, you can test most vaults and layouts with pseudoportal vaults. 12:35 <+due> &Playout <3 12:36 <+greensnark> syllogism: Oh, btw, I visited Shoals earlier today :P 12:36 <+greensnark> It went pretty well 12:36 <@dpeg> I only recently memorised 18x18=324. It helps that there is a Japanese band with the name 324. 12:36 <+greensnark> Right up until it didn't :P 12:36 < syllogism> !lm greensnark 12:36 < Henzell> 2113. [2010-01-09] greensnark the Grappler (L12 OgMo) reached level 8 of the Lair of Beasts on turn 19939. (Lair:8) 12:36 < syllogism> !lg greensnark 12:36 < Henzell> 433. greensnark the Swashbuckler (L12 HaHu), worshipper of Elyvilon, demolished by a merfolk impaler (a +2,+2 demon trident of electrocution) on Shoal:4 on 2010-01-09, with 20364 points after 16566 turns and 1:29:40. 12:36 < syllogism> !lg greensnark -tv 12:36 < Henzell> 433. greensnark, XL12 HaHu, T:16566 requested for FooTV. 12:36 <@dpeg> merfolk impaler! 12:37 <+greensnark> I handled that badly 12:37 <+due> I also have trouble telling my left from my right. 12:37 <+due> Aw, the HaHu died? 12:37 < syllogism> !killsby snapping turtle 12:37 <+greensnark> But I blame it all on the siren who drained me several times on Shoal:4 :P 12:37 < Henzell> No games for * (ckiller=snapping turtle). 12:37 <@dpeg> due: it is more important to tell up from down 12:37 <+due> dpeg: That I can do. 12:37 <+due> dpeg: Also, turtles! 12:38 < syllogism> 77 hp :P 12:38 <+greensnark> :P 12:38 <+greensnark> It was fun :P 12:38 <+greensnark> But I never really had a plan for Shoal:5 :P 12:38 < syllogism> at least aquamancers cant one shot you (3d24) 12:38 <+greensnark> At least I didn't get killed by the sheep :P 12:38 <+greensnark> I was really worried there for a while :P 12:38 < syllogism> did you see any turtles and sea snakes 12:39 <+greensnark> Yes 12:39 < syllogism> oo ely 12:39 <+greensnark> Had a little trouble with the sea snakes :P 12:39 <+due> Hm. 12:39 < syllogism> !lm * place=shoal 12:39 <+greensnark> In fact after I fought the first one, I tiptoed past the others :P 12:39 <+due> I'm randomly getting assert crashes while typing in wizmode prompts. 12:39 <+greensnark> due: doy and Cryptic also mentioned those 12:39 < Henzell> 1385. [2010-01-09] MUMMY the Black Belt (L15 SETm) entered the Shoals on turn 54968. (Shoal:1) 12:39 <+greensnark> Can you get a backtrace or post the crash dump? 12:40 <+due> Got a backtrace. 12:40 < syllogism> !killsby alligator snapping turtle 12:40 < Henzell> One game for * (ckiller=alligator snapping turtle): 1x MUMMY 12:40 < syllogism> <3 12:40 <+greensnark> He got ambushed though :P 12:40 <+due> <3333 12:41 <+due> greensnark: http://sprunge.us/dOff 12:41 <+due> I dOff my hat to you, sir. 12:41 < syllogism> !lg minced place=shoal -tv 12:41 < Henzell> 3. minced, XL17 DEWz, T:54253 requested for FooTV. 12:41 <+greensnark> He was encumbered too :P 12:43 <+due> Hey. 12:43 <+due> make_circle works pretty well. 12:43 <+due> It's not as pretty as what I remember shoals being, though. 12:43 <+greensnark> Do you want perfect circles? 12:43 <+greensnark> Shoals uses overlapping raggedy circles 12:43 <@dpeg> I recommend ellipses, because circles look odd in console 12:43 <+greensnark> And then a smoothing pass 12:44 <@dpeg> in fact, old Shoals and ziggurats make sure that the ellipses are between circles and the eccentricity which looks good in ASCII 12:44 <+due> I'm currently adapting _place_ellipse. 12:45 <@dpeg> doy: now I recall! For Lair ruins, it would be good to take a standard map, and then run a ruination algorithm: growing plants etc. 12:46 <+greensnark> Lair ruins like the ape king's palace in the Jungle Book 12:46 <+due> dpeg: Whatdo you think of curvy corridors and circles for Snake? 12:46 <+due> greensnark: Yesss. 12:46 <@dpeg> due: fine but it will hard to get right 12:47 <+greensnark> Help I'm being attacked by death yaks 12:47 <@dpeg> listen to someone who drew a lot of vaults with non-straight paths 12:47 <+greensnark> Apparently I fell down a shaft 12:47 <+greensnark> And didn't notice it :P 12:47 <@dpeg> Death yaks: "Help, we're being raped by a crazy ogre." 12:47 <+due> Crazy ogre! 12:48 <+greensnark> I may be crazy but I'm not insane! 12:50 <+due> Apparently I can't draw by numbers! 12:50 <+due> Sigh. 12:51 <+due> Whyfore crawl link so long? 12:51 <+greensnark> I notice that these days whenever someone enters the Shoals I feel irrepressibly moved to spectate them and cackle evilly every now and again 12:51 <+greensnark> Hey 12:51 <+due> Argh 12:52 <+greensnark> How did he get yaktaurs 12:52 <+due> What 12:52 <+greensnark> sanka has yaktaurs on Shoal:1 :P 12:52 <+due> What? O_O 12:52 <+greensnark> Maybe an older cdo build 12:52 <+due> Might be 12:52 <+due> b1ee54b 12:53 <+greensnark> He may be playing one of the older versions 12:53 <+due> He is, b1ee54b :) 12:53 <+greensnark> Oh 12:53 <+greensnark> Oh, you checked cdo? :) 12:53 <+due> Yes :0 12:53 <+due> *:) 12:55 <+due> Oh, hey, it converted okay! 12:57 <+due> Hm. 12:57 <+due> dpeg: Trying to remove the randomised aspect of the ellipse (or at least, isolate it so it can be a boolean value0. 12:57 <+greensnark> Hey, amulet wiki page! 12:58 <+due> Just removing "/2 + roll_dice(2, a*a*b*b)/4 + random2(3)" leaves a wierd inset bit on the left hand side no matter what 12:58 <@dpeg> greensnark: you are welcome 12:58 <@dpeg> due: hm, what if you use a=b? 13:00 <+due> dpeg: http://pastebin.ca/1743956 13:01 <+due> It's also asymmetrical. 13:01 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1743957 13:01 <+due> (Just testing a=b) 13:01 <+greensnark> due: i = x-a; i <= x+a is correct 13:02 <+greensnark> Same for y+b 13:02 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1743958 a=b 13:02 <+due> It's got those two inset bits on the top corners. 13:03 <@dpeg> hey, the formula works 13:03 <@dpeg> tested since y-2k 13:03 <+due> :) 13:04 < syllogism> sanka is rather brave 13:05 <@dpeg> or a fool? :) 13:05 < syllogism> well it's working :P 13:06 <+greensnark> He doesn't want to heal, does he ? :P 13:06 < syllogism> how does he have 36 ev at xl13 :P 13:06 <@dpeg> Makhleb is a cool god. 13:06 < syllogism> as a demonspawn, repulsion field i guess 13:06 <+greensnark> DS 13:06 <+due> Anyway. Ellipses! 13:06 < syllogism> but it's still high 13:06 <+due> dpeg: oh great maths guru, wherefore cometh inset-y bits? 13:06 <+greensnark> DS muts are pretty strong :P 13:06 <@dpeg> due: inset? 13:07 <+greensnark> due: your loops are off by one on both x and y, did you fix that? 13:07 <+due> greensnark: Yeah 13:07 <+due> Forgot to recompile though -.- 13:07 <+greensnark> The inset is just integer math being unkind to you 13:07 <+due> Heh. 13:08 <+due> Well, that seems to fix the inset. 13:08 <@dpeg> not to be confused with the upset 13:08 <+greensnark> You can try a*a + b*b - 1 13:08 <@dpeg> or replace <= by < =) 13:08 <+due> It's not quite as nice in smaller applications, though, but it is nice. 13:08 <+greensnark> Does sanka want to be the first kraken victim? :P 13:09 <+greensnark> Apparently 13:09 <@dpeg> success! 13:10 <+due> Oh, problem there. 13:10 <+greensnark> I wonder what to do about kraken tentacles and water 13:10 <+due> !lg sanka 13:10 < Henzell> 739. sanka the Pandemonic (L13 DSCK), worshipper of Makhleb, slain by a tentacle (summoned by a kraken) on Shoal:1 on 2010-01-09, with 40995 points after 21329 turns and 2:29:47. 13:10 <@dpeg> greensnark: do kraken flee if pelted from land? 13:10 <+due> Shouldn't be "summoned". 13:10 <+greensnark> dpeg: They don't flee when submerged, which is a generic fish bug 13:10 <+greensnark> I should fix that 13:10 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, one solution would be to draw additional w from X to end. NOt sure if that is feasible. 13:10 <+due> And it should probably overwrite MONS_TENTACLE -> MONS_KRAKEN. 13:10 <@dpeg> greensnark: that would help 13:10 <+greensnark> dpeg: But that would complicate tiles :/ 13:10 <@dpeg> after that, we will address fish and submerging 13:11 <@dpeg> but for kraken, that is okay 13:11 <@dpeg> greensnark: well, that is the tiles people's problem 13:11 <@dpeg> they will sort it out 13:11 <+greensnark> dpeg: Well, we can't release without tiles :) 13:11 <+greensnark> jpeg actually talked about the problem in a Mantis issue, let me find it 13:12 <+greensnark> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=362 13:12 <+due> Damn it, now I can't get into the portal vault. 13:12 <+greensnark> Drawing the intermediate tentacle tiles sounds tedious 13:13 <+greensnark> Because they'd have to connect up to each other for all the bends the tentacles make 13:13 <+greensnark> It'd look monster cool though <3 13:13 <+greensnark> dpeg: There was also a half-serious proposal to make Polyphemus throw death yaks at the player :P 13:13 <+due> dpeg: http://pastebin.ca/1743962 Is there a way to make them just slightly more circular? 13:13 <+greensnark> Damage like stone giant rocks, but you also end up with an annoyed death yak next to you :P 13:14 <+greensnark> And just think of the hilarious death reports :P 13:14 <+greensnark> "Hit from afar by a death yak thrown by Polyphemus" :P 13:15 <+due> Maybe circles won't work :( 13:15 <@dpeg> greensnark: throw sheep, right? 13:15 <+greensnark> due: You should add some margin to your radii 13:15 <+greensnark> That s instead of checking a*a + b*b 13:15 <+greensnark> Check for that + margin 13:15 <+greensnark> Or - margin 13:15 <@dpeg> due: yes, play with it 13:15 <+greensnark> dpeg: He gets a death yak band 13:16 <@dpeg> also, it will look different in tiles 13:16 <+greensnark> So the idea is he picks up any adjacent death yak :P 13:16 <+greensnark> And throws it at the player 13:16 <@dpeg> greensnark: he could get some sheep for throwing purposes :) 13:16 <+due> dpeg: Stuff tiles :) 13:16 <@dpeg> I like the idea 13:16 <+greensnark> "Hit from afar by a sheep thrown by Polyphemus" would be pretty humiliating :P 13:16 <+due> Can we get canon monsters? 13:16 <@dpeg> but I think he should get a band of sheep and death yaks and only throw the sheep 13:16 <+due> They would shoot priests. 13:16 <+greensnark> syllogism would probably have to start a game to get killed that way 13:17 <+due> (Badum-tish.) 13:17 <@dpeg> because the death yaks are interesting on their own 13:17 <+due> Alas, my humour fails. 13:17 <+greensnark> due: Well, it's a pun :P 13:18 <+due> It was *hilarious* on so many levels. 13:18 <+due> Canon, cannon; shooting priests... 13:18 <+greensnark> :) 13:18 <@dpeg> due: there is a joke that medieval castle defenders would throw down priests if they're running out of hot sand, water and poop. 13:19 <@dpeg> due: for meta-humour, please direct to ##crawl-offtopic. 13:19 <+greensnark> dpeg: But... what a waste of hot sand, water and poop! 13:20 < Napkin> moin guys! 13:20 <+due> Morning Napking! 13:20 <+greensnark> Nabend! 13:20 < Vandal> mornin' 13:20 <+greensnark> Whatever that means :) 13:20 <@dpeg> greensnark: I agree. They got their priorities wrong. 13:20 <@dpeg> They should have said: "Oh, we might be attacked. Let's push the priests over the wall!" 13:21 < Napkin> how's it going? :) 13:21 <@dpeg> Napkin: Nabend! 13:21 <+greensnark> Napkin: Apparently somebody managed to die to a kraken :) 13:21 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@ip102.148.adsl.wplus.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba] by ChanServ 13:21 <@dpeg> we are cracking priest jokes! 13:21 <+greensnark> A heroic effort 13:21 < Napkin> ow.. "nabend" before my first coffee ;) 13:22 < Napkin> btw.. still alive! 13:23 < Napkin> my HEFE I mean! \o/ 13:23 <+due> Napkin: I still suck at maths! :D 13:23 < Napkin> hehe 13:23 < Napkin> let's try - how many coffee are needed now, that I went to bed at 6 and got only 6.25 hours of sleep, due? :> 13:24 <+due> :| 13:24 <+due> Don't know! 13:24 <+greensnark> @whereis Napkin 13:24 < Gretell> Napkin the Arsonist (L11 HEFE), a worshipper of Vehumet, saved on Lair:1 on 2010-01-09 after 27380 turns. 13:24 <+greensnark> Arsonist! 13:24 < Napkin> my title changes so quickly 13:25 < Napkin> firebug.. slicer.. 13:25 < Napkin> longsword guy soon 13:25 < Napkin> I think I screwed my skills :D 13:25 <+due> O_O 13:26 <+greensnark> No, that's good :) 13:26 <@dpeg> Napkin: 2.5*2.5 square hours of sleep is not a good predisposition 13:26 <+due> Maybe someone else should do this for me. 13:26 <+due> Well, instead of me. 13:27 <+due> Mostly as I have no idea what I'm doing. 13:27 * due eyes greensnark thoughtfully :D 13:27 <+greensnark> ? 13:27 < Napkin> hehe - i'll better get the whole can of coffee then :-P 13:27 <@dpeg> due: are you familiar with x^2+y^2=r^2? 13:27 <@dpeg> Napkin: and a beer, for safety! 13:28 < Napkin> ! 13:28 <@dpeg> it's afternoon already, after all 13:28 < Vandal> 7:32 AM and I have to get in uniform and go now, but I actually like the Air National Guard weekends 13:28 < Vandal> The people are great 13:29 <+due> dpeg: Erm, no idea. 13:29 <+due> dpeg: The screen is currently blurry; this is probably a "go to sleep" indicator. 13:29 <+greensnark> due: Gnight :) 13:30 <+due> greensnark: Just because i should doesn't mean I shall :) 13:30 <+greensnark> Yeah, shank of the evening 13:30 <+greensnark> You usually go to sleep 1.5 hours from now 13:31 <+due> Hehehe, yup. 13:32 <@dpeg> hehe 13:32 <@dpeg> due: just do the trove 13:32 <@dpeg> believe me, getting round paths to look nice in an algorithmic manner is not so easy 13:32 <@dpeg> it is annoying by hand already 13:33 <+greensnark> Is this for Snake? 13:33 <+due> Yeah. 13:33 <+due> I think round paths might be impossible. 13:33 <@dpeg> no, that is too fatalistic 13:33 <+greensnark> Sinuous paths should be doable using splines 13:33 <@dpeg> let's call the artillery 13:33 <+due> ... spline? 13:33 <+due> That sonds terrifyig. 13:33 <+greensnark> If we record the level layout ideas, we'll make sure we won't forget stuff :) 13:34 <@dpeg> due lost some letters out of awe. 13:34 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes. 13:34 <@dpeg> doy! 13:34 <+greensnark> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spline_(mathematics) 13:34 <+due> No relation to spines nor spleens? 13:34 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34 <@dpeg> to splice, I guess 13:35 <+greensnark> Admittedly, I've forgotten most of the details 13:35 < Napkin> !send channel hot can of coffee 13:35 < Henzell> Sending hot can of coffee to channel. 13:35 * Napkin keeps the beer * :-P 13:35 <@dpeg> can? 13:35 <+due> Napkin: Thank you, this is usable for dropping out of cannons onto unsuspecting barbarian invaders. 13:36 < Napkin> oh.. what's the right word for Kaffeekanne, dpeg? :D 13:36 <@dpeg> Napkin: I have no idea, to be honest 13:36 <+greensnark> coffee mugs? 13:36 <@dpeg> let me leo it 13:36 < Napkin> hug pot in which the coffee was made! 13:36 <@dpeg> greensnark: no, the big one, to fill the small ones 13:36 <+greensnark> Oh 13:36 <+greensnark> Coffeepot 13:36 < Napkin> sufficient for 3-6 cups at least :D 13:36 < Napkin> hehe, Kaffeepott is what we call a huge cup here, greensnark ;) 13:38 <+due> A pitcher, maybe? 13:38 <+due> That implies cold, though. 13:38 < Napkin> hot! 13:38 <+greensnark> Carafe 13:38 <+greensnark> But that's never used colloquially :) 13:38 < Napkin> http://www.dafgaf.de/usa_termine/Kaffeekanne1.jpg ! 13:39 < Napkin> it will be, from now on, greensnark :D 13:39 <@dpeg> carafe 13:39 <@dpeg> nice 13:40 < Napkin> because that's a german word too with the same meaning ;) 13:40 <+greensnark> :) 13:40 < Napkin> at least once! 13:40 < Napkin> anyways.. what where you discussing? 13:41 <@dpeg> due: does a spear of venom poison a monster, if thrown? 13:41 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:41 < Napkin> I umbued due's magic powers to upgrade CDO and windows builds last night, btw :) 13:41 <@dpeg> Napkin: among others, new layout types 13:42 <+greensnark> I can create a quick scratch page for new layout types from what I remember 13:42 <+greensnark> But someone should update, I wasn't fully tuned to the discussion 13:42 <+greensnark> And what would the appropriate page namespace be? :P 13:42 < Napkin> the link to the git repository on the wordpress is now called "Local Git Repository Mirror" - since someone in ##crawl got confused which to use 13:43 < Napkin> and "Windows Trunk Builds (unstable)" turned to "Windows Development Builds" 13:43 <@dpeg> Napkin: that bit about spear of venom is an FR of yours, from 2007-11-10. Didn't know that you were posting under Bismarck, too, Marc :) 13:43 < Napkin> lol, neither did I! 13:44 < Napkin> I am so hidious :-P 13:44 <@dpeg> greensnark: brainstorm:layout ? 13:45 <+greensnark> dpeg: Ok, will do 13:45 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@ip102.148.adsl.wplus.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:45 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba] by ChanServ 13:45 < Napkin> ugh.. that reminds me... wiki needs to be upgraded! 13:45 <+due> dpeg: Should, unsur,e though. 13:45 <@dpeg> Napkin: does that happen often? 13:45 <@dpeg> due: we can discuss 13:45 <@dpeg> perhaps mail is better? 13:45 <+due> Probably. 13:46 * due distracted futzing around. :) 13:46 < Napkin> first time - no clue yet how often dokuwiki has releases 13:46 < Napkin> upgraded the wordpress last week... <3 git to do software upgrades :D 13:46 < Napkin> may I again motivate you guys to write there too, greensnark, dpeg, all? :> 13:47 < Napkin> btw, 150.000 hits in dezember 13:47 < Napkin> *december 13:47 <@dpeg> I will use the wordpress when I announce the new German Republic 13:47 < Napkin> are you moving somewhere again? :D 13:48 <@dpeg> no, but I think it is time somebody announces a new Germany 13:48 < Napkin> uhmm.. go ahead! will be interesting ;) 13:48 <@dpeg> ok, closed 12 FRs today -- pat self on shoulder 13:48 < Napkin> !send dpeg shoulder-pads 13:48 <+due> What's wrong with the current Germany? 13:48 < Henzell> Sending shoulder-pads to dpeg. 13:48 <+due> I should like to visit it. 13:49 <@dpeg> due: fucked up government, as everywhere 13:49 < Napkin> btw.. the so-called "blizzard" is a bit of fresh snow and light wind :D gotta love the media predicting winter chaos :D 13:49 < Napkin> true.. 13:50 <@dpeg> I think the country could really need a new constitution 13:50 <@dpeg> sacking all representatives of parties sitting in the parliament wouldn't hurt either 13:50 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:50 <@dpeg> doesn't have to be by gallow 13:51 <@dpeg> but hey, why not? 13:51 < Napkin> !send dpeg spiked club 13:51 < Henzell> Sending spiked club to dpeg. 13:51 < Napkin> be my guest ;> 13:51 <@dpeg> hehe 13:51 <@dpeg> the proper way is to get somebody else to do it 13:51 <@dpeg> I was a "Agitator" in the GDR :) 13:52 < Napkin> oh - did you have a "file"? :D 13:52 <@dpeg> well, I was 13 when the wall came down 13:52 < Napkin> yeah, me too 13:52 <@dpeg> but 4 years of agitation :) 13:52 < Napkin> not too politically active at that time :D 13:52 * dpeg would have been a well-oiled cog in the socialist system 13:53 < Napkin> i doubt that 13:53 <+Zaba> socialist system, heh. 13:53 <+Zaba> mention my name when you find a single good thing it had spawned... ;p 13:54 <@dpeg> Napkin: well, nobody knows. But it's always funny if we (from the East) talk to people from the West who generally assume that they'd been active in the resistance :) 13:55 < Napkin> oh? 13:56 < Napkin> well, i'm glad it's 20 (!) years later now :D 13:58 < Napkin> btw, did I say thanks yet to due for all the playtesting posts?! Awesome job, due! 13:58 <+due> :) You're welcome! And you did. 13:58 <+greensnark> Napkin: What should I write about? :) 13:58 <+due> Socialism makes me think of the t-shirt I saw the other day. 13:58 <+due> greensnark: SHOALSs 13:58 <+greensnark> Yes, nice posts due :) 13:59 <+greensnark> A post about the Shoals? :) 13:59 <+due> Yup. 13:59 <+greensnark> But ... I might be hunted down by vengeful players who die there :P 13:59 <+due> I'm currently writing a diamond layout generator. 14:00 <+greensnark> I forgot the details of the Crypt layout discussion. 14:00 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-167-48.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [] 14:00 <+due> there was a picture 14:01 <+greensnark> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:layouts 14:01 <+greensnark> There's a template, please fill it in :P 14:01 <+due> ... This is kinda cool. 14:01 <+greensnark> Screenshots! 14:02 < Ashenzari> greensnark created page Layouts at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:layouts 14:02 <+due> http://sprunge.us/bNXY 14:02 <+greensnark> Neat :) 14:02 <+due> It's not perfect, but I really like it. 14:02 <+greensnark> Already much more interesting than rectangular rooms 14:02 < Mu_> make the corridors zigzag 14:02 <+due> Mu_: Yeah, I was thinking that. 14:03 <+due> And it also needs to be a maximum of two connections per room. 14:03 <+due> And making the triangles not overlap. 14:03 <+due> Er. 14:03 <+greensnark> The overlappy thing is also good 14:03 <+due> Diamonds. 14:03 <+greensnark> You get more interesting open spaces 14:03 <+due> Yeah, I like it. 14:04 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r8f662453f566 /crawl-ref/source/ (9 files in 3 dirs): Tiles: Add icons for poisonous/mutagenic/... chunks or corpses. 14:04 <+due> But I don't like the joins going through the diamonds. 14:04 < Mu_> make it just nothing but tesselated diamonds ;p 14:04 < Mu_> little holes leading between some of em 14:04 <+due> Mu_: Tried that, it looks ugly. 14:04 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r43274d595d29 /crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Add an icon for contaminated chunks/corpses. 14:04 < Mu_> aw 14:04 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r3c2f2b23ae6a /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Rename corpse.png -> chunk.png, corpse_rotten.png -> chunk_rotten.png 14:04 <@dpeg> due: nice! But: finish first, then move on. 14:06 <+due> Troves? 14:06 <@dpeg> yes :) 14:06 <+due> :) 14:06 <+due> Yes, they're 90%! 14:06 <+due> http://sprunge.us/ZTHC 14:06 <+due> Another iteration. 14:08 <@dpeg> greensnark: did you keep the "more water with depth" for Shoals? 14:09 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yes 14:09 <@dpeg> good 14:09 < Napkin> btw, is there a resistance again those water attacks in shoals? 14:09 <+greensnark> Primal wave has no resist, but merfolk get reduced damage 14:10 < Napkin> Eifel told me he got 40 damage from a wave with a 32AC char 14:10 <+greensnark> You can get quite high damage from orbs of energy and poison arrow too 14:10 <+due> Gust, Air/Translocation: randomly throw monsters away from you. Distance depends on spell power and monster's weight. 14:11 < Napkin> yeah.. some unique in level 8 cast LCS at me :D 14:12 <+greensnark> Low HD uniques will do lower damage with LCS :) 14:12 <+due> Roxanne that early? 14:12 <+due> Odd. 14:12 <+due> Oh, Erolcha? 14:12 <+greensnark> Spellcaster danger is directly correlated to their HD 14:12 < Napkin> Erolcha, I think 14:12 < Napkin> ah 14:12 <+greensnark> High level player ghost can do more damage with stone arrow than Erolcha can with crystal spear 14:12 < Napkin> so.. does that mean I should rather skip shoals? 14:12 <+greensnark> Although I think stone arrow was capped recently 14:12 <@dpeg> Erolcha killed me yesterday :( 14:12 <+greensnark> Napkin: Wait until you're quite strong :) 14:12 <+due> Eronarn: Me too. 14:13 <+due> !lg killer=Erolcha 14:13 < Napkin> hmm /me loads up his char 14:13 < Henzell> 2. bookofjude the Slinger (L9 HaHu), demolished by Erolcha (a +4,+2 giant club) on D:8 on 2010-01-08, with 2577 points after 7214 turns and 0:43:02. 14:13 <+greensnark> Shoal:$ is particularly dangerous because you're likely to run into clusters of boss merfolk 14:13 <+greensnark> But you can get an aquamancer or javelineer earlier as well 14:14 < Napkin> some important fix done while I was asleep? 14:15 <+due> None, I think. 14:19 <+due> greensnark, dpeg, Mu_: http://sprunge.us/BOTg 14:20 <+greensnark> Nice 14:20 < Mu_> cool 14:21 <+greensnark> due: Could you try a variant that defines a room as a set of a random number of overlapping diamonds? 14:21 <+due> Hm 14:21 <+due> Shouldn't be too hard 14:21 <+greensnark> It would produce more rooms like the second room in the first column 14:21 <+due> Currently this is just randomly plcing diamonds, storing the centres and then joining them. 14:22 <+greensnark> Hm, there's one sealed room in the first row 14:23 <+due> Yeah. 14:24 <+due> fill_disconnected causes it to assert fail on not placing stairs, though. 14:26 <+due> greensnark: http://sprunge.us/IFYK 14:26 <+due> There's also... 14:26 <+due> http://sprunge.us/aPBh 14:27 <+due> the latter not bothering to join the adjoined diamonds. 14:29 < Napkin> alright, due - I added locking to the update.sh of mingw32 builds 14:29 <+due> hooray! 14:29 < Napkin> and created wrappers: 14:29 < Napkin> crawl@ipx14623:~/bin> ls update-* 14:29 < Napkin> update-cdo.sh* update-mingw-non-tiles.sh* update-mingw-tiles.sh* 14:29 <+due> :D 14:30 < Napkin> next cup! :D 14:30 <+greensnark> due: Niice 14:32 <+due> Still getting disconnected blocks. 14:34 <+due> http://sprunge.us/aKLZ http://sprunge.us/haEh http://sprunge.us/aFMK http://sprunge.us/WHWR http://sprunge.us/EQTZ http://sprunge.us/CBFT http://sprunge.us/ScQd http://sprunge.us/TATP http://sprunge.us/BOHW http://sprunge.us/FhXS 14:34 <+due> A set of ten. 14:37 <+due> which don't look right 14:37 <+greensnark> These look far sharper for some reason 14:37 <+due> http://sprunge.us/CbYL 14:37 <+due> I used vault generation. Weird. 14:39 <+due> Okay, sleep. bye! 14:39 <+greensnark> Night :) 14:41 < Napkin> g'night! 14:41 -!- Enne [n=enne@cpe-076-182-101-004.nc.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 14:41 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Enne] by ChanServ 14:42 -!- Enne [n=enne@cpe-076-182-101-004.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:54 < TGW> are those for anything in particular? 14:54 < TGW> they're cool 15:01 -!- ais523 [n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has joined ##crawl-dev 15:04 < CIA-81> greensnark * rf402990b9d7a /crawl-ref/source/ (dgn-shoals.cc dungeon.cc dungeon.h): Change stair placement on Shoal:$ so it no longer groups all stairs together. 15:21 -!- N78291 [n=null@130-127-45-6.chouse.resnet.clemson.edu] has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24 < N78291> wizlab_demon doesn't seem to have a gretell milestone even though it shows up in the notes 15:24 < syllogism> !lm * place=wizlab 15:24 < Henzell> 8. [2010-01-09] Ahrin the Peltast (L26 DrPa) entered Wucad Mu's Monastery on turn 136453. (WizLab) 15:25 < syllogism> it's the generic one that doesn't, maybe 15:25 < syllogism> !lm * place=wizlab -2 15:25 < Henzell> 7. [2010-01-07] polystyrus the Eclecticist (L17 SpVM) entered The Cloud Mage's Chambers on turn 58415. (WizLab) 15:25 < syllogism> !lm * place=wizlab s=place 15:25 < Henzell> 8 milestones for * (place=wizlab): 8x WizLab 15:25 < syllogism> !lm * place=wizlab s=noun 15:25 < Henzell> 8 milestones for * (place=wizlab): 8x WizLab 15:25 < syllogism> blah 15:25 <+greensnark> Those enter_X milestones should use the place of the entry stair, not the destination 15:26 <+greensnark> !lm * place=wizlab s=milestone 15:26 < Henzell> 8 milestones for * (place=wizlab): 2x entered Wucad Mu's Monastery., 2x entered Tukima's Studio., 2x entered Erinya's Formal Garden., 1x entered Cekugob's Oubliette., 1x entered The Cloud Mage's Chambers. 15:26 < syllogism> you got the hellbinder level, wizlab_demon 15:26 <+greensnark> I thought Eringya was the spelling 15:26 <+greensnark> Also: Oubliette <3 15:27 < syllogism> so why doesn't this specific wizlab leave a gretell milestone 15:27 < syllogism> I've seen a lot of people get it 15:28 <+greensnark> Probably the vault is missing the call to record a milestone 15:28 < syllogism> !lm !N78291 15:28 < Henzell> 31788. [2010-01-09] N78291 the Nimble (L16 MiFE) entered the Vaults on turn 49111. (Vault:1) 15:30 < syllogism> !lm * milestone=~wucad mu -tv 15:30 < Henzell> 2. Ahrin, XL26 DrPa, T:136453 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 15:31 <+greensnark> Napkin: What's the procedure to register to post on cdo Wordpress? 15:32 <+greensnark> syllogism: Could you file a bug for the missing milestone? 15:32 < syllogism> yes 15:32 <+greensnark> Thanks 15:33 < Napkin> greensnark, 1s 15:33 < Napkin> I removed the registration link, because people kept registering there when they actually wanted to register to the mantis/wiki :) 15:33 <+greensnark> Aha :) 15:40 < syllogism> how do I view milestone ingame 15:41 < syllogism> milestones* 15:42 < syllogism> I guess I can't? Just the notes 15:42 < Ashenzari> Wizlab_demon missing milestone (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=371) by syllogism 15:44 -!- by [n=rob@g225121177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev 15:44 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ 15:44 -!- by [n=rob@g225121177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:49 -!- N78291 [n=null@130-127-45-6.chouse.resnet.clemson.edu] has quit ["exit"] 15:50 -!- Enne [n=enne@cpe-076-182-101-004.nc.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 15:50 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Enne] by ChanServ 15:52 <+greensnark> syllogism: Right, only notes 15:53 <+greensnark> milestones are just written to the milestone file 16:01 < CIA-81> greensnark * r8b1fac167bca /crawl-ref/source/ (dbg-asrt.cc monster.cc): Don't let monsters wield stacks of throwing weapons (fixes NetHackish messages about monsters wielding 6 spears). 16:05 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:13 < syllogism> -There is a gateway leading out of the Abyss here. 16:13 < syllogism> -You stop ascending the stairs. 16:13 < syllogism> does that mean he got teleported while ascending "the stairs"? :P 16:17 < AceTetra> yeah, it happens a lot if you're the jumpy type 16:19 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:26 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:32 < Mu_> is there any easy way to ask henzell to playback the entirety of someone clearing a branch 16:32 < Mu_> i'd like to see how people got on in the wizlabs 16:49 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-114-135-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 17:16 <+greensnark> Mu_: Not exactly, but you can say something like !lm * br.enter=wizlab -tv:>15 to tell it to play a good long stretch 17:16 < Mu_> thank you 17:17 <+greensnark> FooTV is unfortunately still pretty dumb about seeking, and will only play back stuff within one ttyrec, so if the player saved in te middle of the wizlab, you're out of luck 17:22 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 17:43 < CIA-81> Enne * r7446d2b0eca3 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/other/ (4 files): Adding some unused floor tiles from Denzi. 18:01 < TGW> there may be a problem 18:02 < TGW> nevermind 18:05 <@dpeg> back 18:05 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:06 <@dpeg> !tell due In my opinion, http://sprunge.us/BOTg looks best (which was an early take). 18:06 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 18:06 < Napkin> *** Ever wonder how new Shoals works? What it looks like? Read for yourself: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/ - Hot article by greensnark! *** 18:06 < Napkin> welcome back, dpeg! 18:07 <@dpeg> greensnark: did you spend some time in the P&R division? 18:07 <+greensnark> P&R? 18:07 <@dpeg> Enne: Hi! Got a moment to explain who Denzi is? 18:07 <@dpeg> A&R? 18:07 <@dpeg> I never know 18:07 <@dpeg> P&R = park & ride :) 18:07 <+greensnark> Denzi is a mysterious artist 18:07 <@dpeg> A&R = ads & relations? 18:07 <+Enne> Denzi: http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Denzi/ 18:07 < Henzell> Enne: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 18:07 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, every time jpeg and I meet, we start wondering again 18:08 <@dpeg> Enne: does (s)he play Crawl? 18:08 <+Enne> I don't know. Maybe? 18:08 <+Enne> !messages 18:08 < Henzell> (1/1) doy said (1d 6h 41m 2s ago): commit 4294ce7 causes some wizmode prompts (like the xl change prompt at least) to assert in cgotoxy 18:08 <@dpeg> I guess not, because then we should have got one poll reply from Japan :) 18:10 <+Enne> Alternatively, Denzi doesn't answer polls. Or polls in English. 18:11 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 18:11 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v pointless_] by ChanServ 18:11 < ais523> it's possible to play Crawl and not see the poll 18:11 < ais523> I missed the poll because I nearly always play it local 18:12 <@dpeg> ais523: yes. The next poll (don't expect it soon) will be announced within the game. 18:13 < ais523> people might not be up-to-date... 18:13 < Napkin> Let's add "News: http://crawl.develz.org" to the topic? 18:13 < ais523> I know the version of Crawl on here (taken from the Ubuntu repos) is really quite old 18:13 < ais523> 0.4.5 I think 18:13 < Napkin> we'll send it to your registered email address, ais523 :-P 18:14 < Napkin> no escape ;> 18:14 <@dpeg> ais523: well, we can't reach the people playing in caves :) 18:15 <@dpeg> but a poll coming with a new release and then going on for a year or so should be quite broad 18:15 < Napkin> but we have clubs! 18:15 <@dpeg> hehe 18:15 <@dpeg> one spike for Mme Merkel, one spike for M Westerwelle,... 18:15 < Napkin> hehe, you watch too much politics, david ;) 18:16 <@dpeg> no TV 18:16 <@dpeg> I read SZ and FAZ 18:17 <@dpeg> greensnark: awesome article 18:18 <+greensnark> Alcohol makes people creative :) 18:21 <@dpeg> creative or more tolerant 18:21 <@dpeg> ? 18:22 <+greensnark> Well, more likely to write silly blog posts :P 18:23 <+greensnark> Fortunately I do not do Facebook, or the potential for damage would be higher :P 18:23 < Napkin> hehehe 18:23 <@dpeg> greensnark: The comment // This could be skewed toward more water at greater depths. 18:23 <@dpeg> is still a comment? I.e. more water with depth is achieved in a different way? 18:24 < Napkin> so.. my dad is starting to get frustrated.. dying, not finding useful stuff early.. what should I do? 18:25 <@dpeg> Napkin: different god? 18:25 <+Zaba> Napkin, what version, and what character is he playing? 18:25 <@dpeg> different combo? 18:25 < Napkin> MDBe 18:25 <+greensnark> dpeg: Currently we get the more-water efect by creating fewer islands 18:25 < Napkin> 0.5.2 of tiles, Zaba 18:25 <@dpeg> Zaba: Napkin's dad is playing Crawl nonstop since christmas 18:25 <@dpeg> greensnark: aha! 18:25 <+Zaba> nice 18:25 <+Zaba> Napkin, perhaps he should try trunk? :> 18:25 <@dpeg> greensnark: in particular, average size is the same. 18:25 < Napkin> yeah - he already asked, to be honest 18:26 <@dpeg> Napkin: 0.5 vs 0.6 should not be crucial for him 18:26 <@dpeg> but let him try OgHu or HECj or so 18:26 < Napkin> 0.6 sacrificing is quite crucial 18:26 <@dpeg> ah! 18:26 <@dpeg> well, our interface improves with age, what can I say? 18:26 <@dpeg> !seen henryci 18:26 < Henzell> I last saw henryci at Sat Jan 9 15:48:05 2010 UTC (1h 38m 47s ago) joining the channel. 18:27 < Napkin> nono, not blaming or anything - i agree 18:27 <+greensnark> Like a fine whisky? :) 18:27 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, only faster 18:27 < Napkin> hehehe 18:27 < Napkin> 150k hits! would like to mention it again! 18:27 <+greensnark> 150k? 18:27 <@dpeg> on CDO 18:27 <+greensnark> That's rather high... 18:27 < Napkin> but how to I macro him spells? 18:27 <@dpeg> it's easy 18:27 < Napkin> agreed, greensnark! 18:27 <+greensnark> Are those unique IP addresses? 18:27 <@dpeg> F1: zap 18:28 <@dpeg> or better za+ 18:28 < Napkin> no, just hits 18:28 <+greensnark> Still rather high 18:28 < Napkin> check yourself, greensnark :) http://crawl.develz.org/cgi-bin/stats.pl?month=all&year=2009&output=main&config=crawl.develz.org&framename=index 18:28 <+greensnark> Unless you have some searh bot crawling the site like mad :) 18:28 < Napkin> bots are not counted! 18:29 < Napkin> with bots it's more than 1 mil 18:29 < Napkin> but he has f1-f7 already in use, david 18:29 <+greensnark> Interesting 18:29 <@dpeg> Napkin: ah, explore etc.? 18:30 < Napkin> search, X, ctrl+g, %, ctrl+o, etc 18:30 <@dpeg> well, if you only need one spell, use Space :) 18:30 < Napkin> lol! 18:30 < Napkin> :D 18:30 < Napkin> well, he's dealing with "a?" quite good already 18:30 < Napkin> might deal same good with "z?" 18:31 <+pointless_> dpeg: Hi 18:33 <@dpeg> pointless_: Hello again! 18:34 <+pointless_> I'm going to do some work on crawl this weekend, did you read what I wrote on the wiki about Fedhas? 18:34 <@dpeg> yes 18:34 <@dpeg> should I comment over there? 18:34 <@dpeg> btw, is the bug with minivaults in branch ends fixed? 18:34 <+pointless_> It's probably simpler if you just tell me what you think now 18:34 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yes, it's fixed 18:35 <@dpeg> thanks, so I can close that item 18:36 <@dpeg> pointless_: okay, I still stand by these two: 18:36 <@dpeg> # 18:36 <@dpeg> Plants do not last very long. I think that Evolution should harden your plants. (More AC, more maxHP, inrease HP by that amount.) 18:36 <@dpeg> # 18:36 <@dpeg> Accidentally shooting neutral plants is annoying. Why not simply allow to shoot through all plants? If we want to, we could do these at different piety steps. 18:36 <@dpeg> agree with 18:36 <@dpeg> let fireball etc. shoot through plants (expl. phase still affects) 18:36 <@dpeg> should restore kill attribution for fish out of water 18:37 <@dpeg> Tie invocations into this in some way, via fruit use efficiency or improve plant hp/ac proportional to invo. 18:37 <@dpeg> Piety costs should be reconsidered, maybe remove up front piety cost and keep piety loss from allies dying (plants die all the time since they can't go with you). Piety loss from allies dying may be reduced 18:38 <@dpeg> on: Plants are reasonably useful as a means of blocking single target ranged attacks (from centaurs or greater nagas for example) but they die somewhat quickly --- yes, this is why I suggest that you should be able to use Evolution for hardening them 18:38 <@dpeg> kill attrib for drowning via rain clouds? currently no exp is granted for them. --- I'd keep that for now, as a balancer for the instakill 18:39 <@dpeg> I like how you can use Rain to seperate yourself from melee opposition and would really like to keep it 18:39 <@dpeg> if we want, we can make it more expensive to create *deep* water 18:40 <@dpeg> stand on a friendly oklob can it shoot? (used to be no, maybe special case that back in after beam origin thing was reverted). Plants are protected from single target attacks when the player is standing on them. --- don't really know, the trick is a bit opaque 18:41 < Napkin> hmm.. did something about make clean/distclean change? 18:41 <@dpeg> pointless_: and your take on Evolution interface is spot on 18:41 <+pointless_> I think I'd prefer to have growth improve plant health rather than evolution (have a fixed 1 fruit per plant cost, make the plants created have more max HP proportional to invocations). 18:42 <@dpeg> pointless_: but that's very expensive on fruits 18:42 <@dpeg> couldn'T we make it that planting takes fruits, but strengthening only takes piety? 18:42 < Napkin> damn :( 18:43 <@dpeg> pointless_: I am fine with reordering abilities, but Rain in the end would mean that many players can't use it 18:43 <@dpeg> Napkin: what? 18:43 < Napkin> rm -f scores crawl.exe core *.0* *.lab 18:44 < Napkin> *.0* is matching foldername crawl-0.6.0-a1-2118 and thus make clean fails *sigh* 18:44 <@dpeg> pointless_: we ignore Eronarn's campagne for more plants for now? 18:44 <+pointless_> My current idea for tying abilities to invocations is: higher invocations with growth gives you stronger plants (which get upgraded to stronger oklobs), and higher invocations makes evolution more efficient (more upgrades per fruit). 18:45 <@dpeg> I have the feeling that giving in would delay the god by far. And it's not necessary imo. 18:45 <+pointless_> dpeg: I consider more plants a low priority at this time 18:45 <@dpeg> good 18:46 <@dpeg> pointless_: but that would mean that players are *forced* to train Inv as much as possible before spending fruits 18:46 <+pointless_> the issue is it's already somewhat hard to convey to the player what evolution does, since we aren't exposing the costs and adding strengthing complicates the situation 18:46 < Napkin> greensnark? could you get rid of that *.0* in the makefile? 18:46 <+greensnark> Napkin: Sure 18:46 < Napkin> great, thanks :) 18:46 <+pointless_> dpeg: Well if evolution is an early game ability making it less efficient to start with makes sense to me 18:47 <@dpeg> pointless_: Evolution only takes piety right? 18:47 <+pointless_> It takes piety and fruit 18:47 <@dpeg> oh 18:47 <+pointless_> presumably the player conducts some very rapid selective breeding trials 18:48 <@dpeg> ? 18:48 <@dpeg> I think that for Growth, we should have: one fruit, one plant 18:48 <+pointless_> A joke, the player causes evolution by growing plants from the seeds 18:48 <@dpeg> at least for creation 18:49 <+pointless_> My idea for growth is 1 plant per fruit, the plant created is stronger (more max HP) with more invocations 18:49 < CIA-81> greensnark * ra991cdbff6c1 /crawl-ref/source/makefile: Remove obsolete commands to delete save pieces in make clean to fix cdo clean build (Napkin). 18:49 <@dpeg> hm, I think it would be okay to only have Growth cost fruits 18:49 < Napkin> \o/ 18:49 <@dpeg> and let Growth with 0 fruits paid use up piety to grow the plants some more 18:50 <@dpeg> if we want to explain this, we could rule that some water must be nearby 18:50 <@dpeg> so Growth would be "accelerated growth" 18:50 <+pointless_> dpeg: So the evolution UI at this point is basically you specify a number of fruit, and X number of upgrades happen because of that. If the cost is a variable piety cost per upgrade how does that work in the UI? 18:50 < ais523> maybe you have to wield the fruit? 18:51 <+pointless_> We're discussing removing the fruit cost from evolution 18:51 <@dpeg> pointless_: the main use of Evolution is to turn a plant into an oklob, right? 18:51 <@dpeg> that should indeed cost another fruit 18:51 <+pointless_> You can also make wandering mushrooms which would presumable be the early game application 18:51 <@dpeg> btw, plant into bush is also interesting 18:52 <+pointless_> dpeg: Ok I thought you meant drop the fruit cost from evolution 18:52 <@dpeg> yes, I am somewhat erratic right now 18:52 <+pointless_> bushes are worse than plants since they don't block missiles 18:52 < ais523> um, friendly wandering mushrooms is a rather confusing concept 18:52 <@dpeg> how about this: you can only evolve the plant you are standing on: 0 fruits gives wandering mushrooms; 1 fruit turns a plant into a bush; 2 fruits turn a plant into an oklob 18:53 <@dpeg> this has the advantage that we can remove choosing a destination 18:53 <@dpeg> pointless_: but they have good HP 18:53 <@dpeg> so against melee monsters, they are what you want 18:54 <+pointless_> Well I think potentially (in late game) you want to create a large number at a time, we already got a complaint about the initial interface (which was a fixed use 2 fruit at a time) because of that 18:54 <@dpeg> we could also make it that 0 fruits on a toadstool turns it into a plant (still costing a chunk of piety, of course) 18:55 <@dpeg> pointless_: well, my vision would be this: 18:55 <@dpeg> "oh shit situation" --> growth in the open, costing 8 fruits, creating a plant ring; one or more additional growths to strengthen the plants (only piety cost); one or more evolutions to create oklobs (costing piety and fruits). 18:57 <+pointless_> The issue as I see it is if you want to make all 8 oklobs you have to walk in a little circle and cast it on each one if the interface is 'evolve what you are standing on' 18:57 <@dpeg> pointless_: hm, I only made one or two oklobs in my games 18:58 <@dpeg> from a plant fort 18:58 <+pointless_> Well it may be more relevant for creating wandering mushrooms 18:58 <+pointless_> currently I think wandering mushrooms are overcosted so it doesn't make sense to make them 18:58 <+pointless_> but you might want to create a bunch from some toadstools 18:58 <@dpeg> yes, 1 fruit for a mushroom is never worth it 18:59 <@dpeg> yes, but I think this should only cost piety 18:59 <+pointless_> dpeg: The current costs are like this: 1 fruit gives you X points, upgrading a plant to oklob costs y points, upgrading a toadstool to fungus costs z points, upgrading a fungus to wandering mushroom costs a points 18:59 <@dpeg> hm, what about this: Evolution on an open square (not on a plant) turns all toadstools into wandering mushrooms 18:59 <@dpeg> whereas Evolution on a plant evolves that? 18:59 <+pointless_> So there is a uniform cost structure for using the ability, and we just have to decide the parameters 19:00 <+pointless_> dpeg: It just seems complicated to me that there are different rules for how the ability works depending on what you are trying to evolve 19:01 <+pointless_> 'evolve what you are standing on' is easy to understand but introducing different rules for different plants complicates the situation 19:02 <+pointless_> I also think 'evolve things in sight' is easy to understand, but the issue with the current system is that it's hard for players to know what they will get from using the ability. My proposal for that is to list the outcomes for using differnt numbers of fruit 19:04 <@dpeg> I think that "piety->mushrooms", "1 fruit->bush", "2 fruit->oklob" is very clear 19:04 <@dpeg> the only drawback is that Inv is not used 19:05 <@dpeg> however, we put that right back tweakign the parameters (eg. HP) of the new plant by Inv 19:05 <@dpeg> so the fruit costs (which are crucial imo) are constant throughout, but you do get better plants with higher Inv 19:06 < Napkin> should I link to the Mantis tracker from the "windows development builds" page? 19:06 <@dpeg> I am called for dinner :/ 19:06 <+pointless_> I don't think your proposal is particularly robust to new plants, and the other question is whether evolving what the player is standing on is the right UI. 19:07 <+pointless_> Also is 3 fruits per oklob a reasonable cost? 19:07 <@dpeg> yes 19:07 <@dpeg> I am not sure on the interface, but I do think that a fixed cost of fruits/plant is very good to have 19:08 <+pointless_> I don't think a single oklob can have that much impact late game 19:08 <@dpeg> they are now shouting in a chorus, back in 20 minutes 19:08 <+pointless_> ok 19:20 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."] 19:49 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 20:01 <@dpeg> back 20:01 <@dpeg> hm, 50 minutes :/ 20:01 <@dpeg> pointless_: still here? 20:13 < Ashenzari> Berserkitis shouldn't trigger when attacking plants (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=372) by minmay 20:20 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:36 <+pointless_> dpeg: I'm back 20:39 -!- ais523 [n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41 <@dpeg> pointless_: Hi! 20:43 <@dpeg> pointless_: thought a bit about the matter while eating. I think what I am afraid of is a complex system, that needs spoilers to be used at full potential. For a player, the worst thing to do is lose finite consumables -- fruits in the case of Fedhas. 20:43 <+pointless_> dpeg: We don't have to show the player the parameters of the system, just the system's outcomes 20:44 <@dpeg> Therefore, the rules for fruit costs should be very simple and constant -- not involve outside parameters. 20:44 <@dpeg> Piety is a much more forgiving resource. 20:44 <+pointless_> so on the UI we can just list 1 fruit - 1 oklob, 1 wandering mushroom 20:44 <+pointless_> We don't have to expose the parameters of the system to the player, just the results of using the system with a particular input 20:44 <@dpeg> pointless_: yes, but it is much harder to turn that feedback into a mental system! 20:45 <+pointless_> dpeg: on the 'how many fruit?' UI we can just list the outcomes for using 1-n fruit 20:45 <@dpeg> And there is the problem that players have to train Inv in order to save fruits. 20:45 <+pointless_> Don't we want players ot train inv? 20:45 <@dpeg> oh, we do 20:46 <@dpeg> I am saying that players should get the same "thing" for each fruit invested, even if Inv makes a difference in how good the thing is. Do you see the difference? 20:47 <+pointless_> I understand what you are saying, I don't agree that it is necessary to make that a consideration. Players will always feel pressured to conserve limited resources (and then never use them), I don't think we can really make a difference on that front 20:48 <@dpeg> So yes, an oklob obtained with 5 Inv should be much less durable (and ideally also less effective) than an oklob generated with maxed Inv. But the fruit costs to get them were the same. 20:48 <+pointless_> The appeal of having growth improve plants (not evolution) is that there is an incentive to use growth to create the initial plant instead of using say rain or sunlight to create the plant 20:49 <@dpeg> I agree with that 20:49 <@dpeg> we can remove plant creation from Sun/Rain if we want. 20:50 <@dpeg> although if Rain is moved later in the ability chain, that's probably not needed 20:50 <+pointless_> Sun is problematic is it stands but I'd prefer plant create to remain in rain, so there is an option to create plants from piety then improve them with evolution if the player is low on fruit. If plants created by growth are better than ones created just from piety that becomes a choice 20:50 <+pointless_> !lm pointless 20:50 < Henzell> 5160. [2009-12-27] pointless the Englaciator (L27 MfIE) found the Orb of Zot! (Zot:5) 20:51 <+pointless_> !lm pointless -tv 20:51 < Henzell> 5160. pointless, XL27 MfIE, T:169704 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 20:52 <+pointless_> Rain should be moved higher on the ability chain because as it stands you get too many casts before you lose a non situational ability 20:52 <+pointless_> I guess this tv isn't on quite the right time frame, but I flooded part of zot:5 to block orb guardians 20:54 <@dpeg> pointless_: I agree with both parts: Rain as a way to create plants from piety (when I suggested that evolve/growth on toadstools should give fruit-free plants, I was thinking of this); the plants from growth are better (for example, because plants from Rain is more expensive on piety, takes longer and Inv is not taken into account?). 20:55 <+pointless_> I'd leave rain as is, so that it just creates baseline plants with no HP bonus, while growth would give a bonus proportional to invocations 20:57 <@dpeg> yes, exactly 20:58 <@dpeg> if we *want* to, we could have the *chance* for plants from Rain depend on Inv, but that might defeat the purpose 20:59 <+pointless_> So issues as I see them: What is the right UI for evolution - plant you are standing on or plants in sight, What are the fruit costs of upgrades - fixed or proportional to invocations 20:59 <+pointless_> I think we are in basic agreement on growth 20:59 <@dpeg> Please trust me that fixed fruit cost per plant grown is better design. We can have fractional fruit costs, by the way. 20:59 <@dpeg> (but integer costs are easier, of course) 21:00 <@dpeg> ((and with the current small set of plants, fractional is not needed, imo)) 21:00 <+pointless_> Putting aside costs for now, let's discuss the interface. In my opinion upgrading plants in sight is better than the plant you are standing on 21:01 <+pointless_> Early on we got a complaint about evolution only working on a couple plants at a time, and it's not clear to me what the benefits of going to 'upgrade the plant you are standing on' are 21:02 <@dpeg> Okay. But before that, we need to sort out the uses of Growth (on existing plants) vs Evolution. 21:03 <+pointless_> It's not clear to me that the 0 fruit -> upgrade HP ability is needed if we have upgrading HP proportional to invo when creating plants 21:03 <@dpeg> well, I found it to be useful to "repair" damaged plants in play 21:04 <@dpeg> e.g. you create your plant fort and it gets trampled upon and you want to heal the plants 21:04 <@dpeg> without turning them into oklobs 21:05 <+pointless_> Well if your plants have more HP to begin with maybe you won't need an ability to heal them 21:05 <@dpeg> true 21:05 <@dpeg> so let's postpone plant healing for now, as we will use Inv for health boni, ok? 21:06 <+pointless_> ok 21:06 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 21:06 <@dpeg> again, what is the conceptual difference between Growth and Evolution? 21:07 <+pointless_> Evolution changes plants that already exist, you can create plants from growth, or rain, or you can create mushrooms from decomposition. It ties in with the other abilities. Growth lets you put up a wall in one turn (right now it's not a very strong wall) 21:08 <@dpeg> growth always creates plain plants, right? 21:08 <+pointless_> Yes 21:09 <@dpeg> whereas evolution works on all types of plants? 21:09 <@dpeg> are bushes included there already? 21:09 <+pointless_> Yes (well there are no upgrades for oklob plants/wandering mushrooms) 21:09 <+pointless_> I don't recall if pushes are on an upgrade path at the moment 21:09 <+pointless_> They may upgrade to oklob plants 21:09 <@dpeg> and is the evolution path deterministic? 21:10 <+pointless_> Yes the path is deterministic now 21:10 <@dpeg> I meant: can you get bushes from something? 21:10 <+pointless_> Right now you can't 21:10 <@dpeg> okay, the current list is: 21:11 <@dpeg> toadstool, fungus, plant, bush, oklob, ballistomycete 21:11 <@dpeg> right? 21:11 <@dpeg> oh, and wandering mushroom 21:11 <+pointless_> Yes those are all current plants/fungi 21:11 <+pointless_> not counting giant spores 21:11 <@dpeg> yes, I left them out b/c you don't want to plant them 21:12 <@dpeg> I think that evolution should at most work like this: 21:12 <@dpeg> toadstool -> fungus / wandering mushroom 21:12 <@dpeg> plant -> bush / oklob / ballisto 21:12 <@dpeg> a "fungus" line, and a "plant" line 21:12 <+pointless_> ballistos are a plant? 21:12 <@dpeg> no? 21:13 <+pointless_> I think they're a fungus 21:13 <@dpeg> move to fungi? 21:13 <@dpeg> ok 21:13 <@dpeg> let's ignore for a moment whether (and how) Evolution is deterministic 21:13 <@dpeg> we could have 21:13 <@dpeg> toadstool -> fungus | wandering mushroom 21:14 <@dpeg> wait 21:14 <+pointless_> Right now that path is toadstool -> fungus -> wandering mushroom. 21:14 <@dpeg> toadstool -> fungus -> wandering mushroom -> ballisto 21:14 <@dpeg> yes, with ballisto slapped on at the end, if we want 21:15 <@dpeg> (this is optional and depends a bit on other decisions) 21:15 <+pointless_> The current paths are toadstool->fungus->wandering mushroom ballisto->wandering mushroom 21:15 <@dpeg> ah 21:15 <@dpeg> but isn't a ballisto worth much more than a wandering mushroom? 21:15 <+pointless_> Right now I would say it's not clear that ballistos are more useful than wandering mushrooms, so we should maintain the status quo for fungi 21:15 <@dpeg> yes, okay 21:15 <+pointless_> They have a 500 turn timer atm 21:16 <@dpeg> (for later: we could make Evolve turn a single ballisto into a bunch of spores, like a smart bomb) 21:16 <@dpeg> so it would be 21:16 <@dpeg> toadstool -> fungus -> wandering mushroom -> ballisto -> many spores 21:16 <@dpeg> but that's for later 21:16 <+pointless_> ok 21:16 <@dpeg> now, plants 21:17 <@dpeg> plant -> bush -> oklob ? 21:17 <@dpeg> or also plant -> bush | oklob 21:17 <+pointless_> So the properties of bushes are: High AC/HP, and anyone can shoot through them. 21:18 <+pointless_> Shoot through makes them worse than regular plants for Fedhas worshipers 21:18 <+pointless_> But they have more HP/AC 21:18 <+pointless_> It's not clear to me that we need to worry about allowing fedhas worshipers to make bushes if we are already going to have upgraded regular plants from growth 21:18 <@dpeg> yes 21:19 <@dpeg> well, I think that bushes should somehow enter the picture 21:19 <@dpeg> or also plant | bush -> oklob 21:19 <+pointless_> I'm fine with bush -> oklob 21:19 <@dpeg> ok 21:20 <@dpeg> So Growth always produces a plant ring around the player. 21:20 <+pointless_> Or a partial ring if they specify less fruit 21:20 <@dpeg> We pool all fruits and pay from this. 21:20 <@dpeg> I am not sure if we really should ask for a number of fruits. 21:20 <@dpeg> It's so cumbersome 21:21 <+pointless_> I found it very useful 21:21 <+pointless_> Make a 3 plant wall to block ranged attackes 21:21 <+pointless_> *attackers 21:21 <+pointless_> I would say the UI is "How many plants?" 21:21 <+pointless_> and we don't prompt for an inventory slot 21:21 <@dpeg> yes, because of the pool 21:22 <+pointless_> Partial rings are placed on squares that are closest to enemies so a 3 plant wall will reliably be placed between you and a single enemy 21:22 <+pointless_> It works well vs. ranged attackers 21:22 <@dpeg> another solution is that first Growth places half of your free adjacent squares 21:22 <@dpeg> another one the rest 21:22 <+pointless_> you mean two separate abilities? 21:22 <+pointless_> or casting growth twice? 21:22 <@dpeg> e.g. ..@.r. -> ..@Pr. -> .P@Pr. 21:22 <@dpeg> yes, twice 21:22 <@dpeg> attention, wait a moment 21:23 <@dpeg> .... ..P. PPP. 21:23 <+pointless_> I think the current situation - where you specify the number to use is completely fine (minus the choosing a inventory slot part) 21:23 <@dpeg> grrr 21:23 <@dpeg> .@.r .@Pr .P. 21:23 <@dpeg> again 21:23 <+pointless_> It works for making a 3 plant wall, and for blocking a corridor 21:23 <@dpeg> .... ..P. PPP. 21:23 <@dpeg> .@.r .@Pr .P. 21:23 <@dpeg> .... ..P. PPP. 21:23 <@dpeg> damn :) 21:23 <@dpeg> yes 21:24 <@dpeg> I tried to draw that, but I suck 21:24 <@dpeg> last picture is @ surrounded by P 21:24 <+pointless_> Well anyway my position is that "How many plants?" ignoring inventory slots is the right UI 21:24 <@dpeg> ok, then let's do that 21:25 <@dpeg> my suggestion was to get rid of the question by adding more logic to how growth works 21:25 <@dpeg> but a single question is also okay 21:29 < Ashenzari> make weapon swap for butchery implicit (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=373) by dpeg 21:31 <@dpeg> still here? 21:31 <+pointless_> Yes 21:32 <+doy> alright, comments welcome http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:layouts 21:32 <@dpeg> I think the Growth interface would be good enough then. Evolution is a bit more tricky. 21:32 <@dpeg> doy: will do later, many thanks. 21:32 <+pointless_> So for evolution UI the current situation is: You specify a number of fruit, it does as many upgrades as it can with that fruit prioritizing high cost upgrades (so oklobs are prioritized over fungi) 21:32 <+pointless_> Every upgrade has an associated cost 21:33 <@dpeg> what do you think of this: fruits are only needed for evoluting in the plant line (given that the fruits all come from plants)? 21:33 <@dpeg> Evolution in the fungi line is paid with piety. 21:33 <@dpeg> or, if we want to, flesh 21:34 <+pointless_> The good thing about using fruit for both is that there is a uniform cost structure, you can upgrade plants and fungi at the same time 21:34 <@dpeg> (fungi growing on flesh) 21:34 <@dpeg> oh, you could still upgrade both at the same time 21:34 <+pointless_> What is the interface like in that case? Right now it's basically "How many fruit?" 21:35 <@dpeg> well, I would list the things that can be upgraded 21:35 < MarvinPA> i was wondering, are all fruits equal in terms of costs? like, is a single grape the same as a banana? 21:36 <+pointless_> Yes 21:36 <@dpeg> and we could have checkboxes: (a) 3/5 plants to oklobs (b) 0/1 bush to oklobs (c) 1/1 toadstool to fungus etc. 21:37 <+pointless_> So you would do all available upgrades of one type? 21:37 < MarvinPA> i didn't end up using growth/evolution much when i played fedhas because i felt like i'd use up my fruit too fast, and then when i did create stuff i'd lose lots of piety from it being destroyed 21:37 <@dpeg> well, you could select whcih to do 21:37 < MarvinPA> then again i was merfolk so rain was the most useful ability i guess 21:37 <+pointless_> Piety loss from allies dying will be reviewed 21:37 <@dpeg> yes 21:37 < MarvinPA> ah, cool 21:38 <+pointless_> dpeg: So is this turning into a point buy UI? I thought that was forbidden 21:38 <@dpeg> allies dying really hurts you *three times* now: you lose a plant, so things get more dangerous; you lose piety; and you lose the invested fruit 21:38 <@dpeg> pointless_: you caught me 21:39 <@dpeg> but I don't see how you can get a clean interface when there's a bush, two toadstools, three plants in sight 21:39 <@dpeg> this is why I suggested moving onto the target 21:39 <+pointless_> Well the current situation is we assume the most costly upgrade is what the player wants, I think this works ok with the current plant/fungi set 21:39 <@dpeg> another idea: Evolution only affects adjacent plants (not too farfetched, thematically) 21:39 <+pointless_> the most costly upgrade is an oklob, the player probably wants an oklob if a plant is on the screen 21:40 <+pointless_> if the player wants to make wandering mushrooms there are probably toadstools on the screen (and no plants) 21:40 <+pointless_> i.e. the choice of what to upgrade is made by what plants the player has on the screen 21:40 <@dpeg> well, wouldn't the adjacent-only idea help anyway? 21:41 <+pointless_> I don't know, give me a minute to think about it 21:42 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-161-197.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 21:42 <+pointless_> I guess I'm ok with adjacent only 21:45 <+pointless_> So the UI remains a question, is a point buy system OK? If not and there is piety cost for fungi, but fruit cost for plants how does that UI work? The current implementation is you say how many fruit you will use, but that doesn't work if fungi aren't using a fruit cost 21:46 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-175-115.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:47 <@dpeg> with adjacent, we don't need points-buy 21:48 <@dpeg> we simply upgrade everything 21:48 <+pointless_> So you cast evolution and it just uses up N fruit/how much ever piety? 21:49 <+pointless_> How do we convey the upgrade costs to the user? 21:52 <@dpeg> good point 21:53 <@dpeg> I think a good interface would be this: 21:54 <@dpeg> calling Evolution blends out (like targeting) everything except for the 3x3 block around the player 21:54 <@dpeg> in the message area, we list the various plants in that area 21:55 <@dpeg> 3 plants -> oklob plants ([foo] fruits) 21:55 <@dpeg> 1 toadstool -> fungus (piety) 21:55 <@dpeg> if we (or you) want to be fancy, we could still allow choices here 21:56 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-164-252.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 21:56 <+pointless_> What happens if the player doesn't have enough fruit/piety to do all the avilable upgrades? 21:58 <+pointless_> Maybe we should just simplify the fungus upgrade part and say the ability has a piety cost for activation and it will upgrade any fungi within the 3x3 area 21:59 <+pointless_> and then the UI will be "How many fruit?" to do any available oklob upgrades 21:59 <@dpeg> yes, also okay 22:00 <@dpeg> easy is good 22:01 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-161-197.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:02 <+pointless_> So evolution UI: 3x3 area of effect around player (range shading), piety cost for activation, upgrades any fungi in area to wandering mushrooms, prompts "How many fruit?" to upgrade any plants in the aoe to oklobs 22:02 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-175-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:03 <@dpeg> yes 22:03 <@dpeg> no prompt if no plants 22:04 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-164-252.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:06 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-163-101.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:07 <+pointless_> So for evolution costs, we are down to: Piety cost to activate the ability, plant|bush->oklob upgrade cost 22:08 <+pointless_> and your want 2 fruit for the plant->oklob upgrade? 22:12 <@dpeg> sorry, printer woes with my family 22:13 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-153-12.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:19 < Eronarn> headache. 22:23 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-175-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24 <@dpeg> back 22:24 <@dpeg> pointless_: ready to discuss the costs? Or enough for today? 22:25 <+pointless_> I think the only costs at this point are: The piety cost for activation, the upgrade to oklob fruit cost 22:25 <@dpeg> yes 22:26 <@dpeg> activation = growth? 22:26 <+pointless_> piety cost to use the evolution ability 22:26 <+pointless_> ignoring the source of the plants 22:26 <@dpeg> ah 22:27 <@dpeg> hm, I think that 1 fruit is okay (which would, in my system, mean 2 fruits to make an oklob in thin air) 22:28 <@dpeg> don't know if we need an activation cost since everything that evolves has to be paid for 22:28 <+pointless_> I thought we were going with a fixed activation cost rather than a variable piety cost for upgrading N fungi 22:28 <+pointless_> How do you convey a variable piety cost if you can't give piety numbers? 22:28 <@dpeg> oh, a misunderstanding 22:29 <+pointless_> So your position is - piety cost per fungus upgrade, fruit cost per plant upgrade? 22:29 <@dpeg> evolution can come with the following costs: (a) activation, (b) cost to turn one toadstool into a fungus, (c) cost for fungus->wandering mushroom, (d) plant/bush->oklob 22:30 <@dpeg> yes 22:30 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-163-101.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:30 <+pointless_> So how does the interface work, and how do you convey the variable piety cost to the user? 22:30 <@dpeg> a=0, d=1 fruit, b,c piety/fungus 22:31 <+pointless_> The question in my mind is how do you convey the variable piety cost to the user? Also if there is a variable piety cost does it still make sense to upgrade all fungi in range? 22:31 <@dpeg> "Fedhas' power lets the fungus evolve. (x4)" 22:32 <+pointless_> That doesn't tell the user that doing that used up 4*X piety for them 22:32 <+pointless_> There are already upgrade messages for everything 22:32 < Eronarn> i don't think this is an improvement over the current interface, fwiw 22:33 <@dpeg> Eronarn: the point is that evolution in the fungus line should cost piety, not fruitsa 22:33 <@dpeg> pointless_: What would a player expect? 22:34 <@dpeg> One flat cost, or a cost per fungus? 22:34 <+pointless_> dpeg: A fixed piety cost like every other ability in the game? 22:36 <@dpeg> pointless_: well, with plants it's already clear that you pay per plant. 22:37 <@dpeg> also, Yrdy's mirror is paid per use 22:37 <+pointless_> So if the user is adjacent to 8 toadstools should we always upgrade them all for a 8*X piety cost? 22:37 <@dpeg> not saying that flat is bad, but it could lead to funny behaviour, e.g. player trying to make monsters die in a cluster, so as to get many nearby toadstools, so as to make many wandering mushrooms at once 22:37 <+pointless_> Yrdy's mirror is in effect for a period of time, evolution is a 1 turn ability 22:37 <+doy> pointless_: that sounds reasonable ot me 22:54 < Ashenzari> Orcish banded mails are acting like !p-inscribed items (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=374) by Kyrris 22:59 <@dpeg> ok, 20 FRs closed today 22:59 <+doy> nice 22:59 <+doy> making progress! 23:00 <@dpeg> pointless_: everything okay so far? 23:01 <+pointless_> dpeg: Probably best to call it a day for now 23:02 <@dpeg> ok, you can always approach me by mail, too 23:02 < Eronarn> dpeg: were you looking for me for something in particular a day or two ago? 23:02 <@dpeg> there has been agreement on a large number of things, all of which will improve Fedhas 23:02 <@dpeg> Eronarn: yes 23:02 <@dpeg> but what? 23:02 <@dpeg> ah! 23:03 <@dpeg> I think we should comment on each other's DS mutation proposals, so as to make life easier for Stefan. 23:03 < Eronarn> well, I need to finish doing mine 23:03 < Eronarn> just been a bit busy lately - school & work 23:03 < Eronarn> can probably get it later today though 23:03 <@dpeg> yes, that is part of the story :) 23:04 <@dpeg> well, not urgent, but if we agree both on a bunch, then sorear could start taking these on 23:05 < Eronarn> yeah. i'll probably do it after dinner (2h or so from now) 23:12 <@dpeg> doy? 23:12 <+doy> hey 23:13 <@dpeg> You removed my Convergence section =) 23:13 <@dpeg> gone, disappeared 23:14 <+doy> dpeg: i just integrated it into the individual branch sections 23:14 <@dpeg> yes, okay 23:14 <+doy> you can add it back if you think the concept in general merits discussion 23:14 <+doy> (: 23:14 <@dpeg> I think most sections should link to brainstorm:branch:--- but I was too lazy. Did it for vaults, though 23:15 <+doy> yeah, probably 23:15 <+doy> vaults and hive are the only ones with concrete discussion i think 23:15 <@dpeg> doy: well, the idea behind convergence is that it's a concept. Which can apply in various different ways in a branch. If you are aware of it. 23:15 <+doy> i was going to do that for hive and then forgot 23:15 <+doy> right 23:15 <@dpeg> swamp and slime should have lots of content 23:16 <+doy> ah, okay 23:16 <@dpeg> for example, the deeper orc levels could have more gold 23:16 <+doy> yes, that would be a good idea 23:16 <@dpeg> I still think that round corridors are cool, but hard to make. 23:16 <+doy> i do like the larger corridor idea for zot, rather than deep main dungeon 23:17 <@dpeg> yes, that is also okay 23:17 <+doy> and yeah, not sure how rounded corridors would work 23:17 <+doy> worth a shot though 23:17 <@dpeg> it would be possible to make a level that is a huge snake 23:18 <@dpeg> and variations thereof 23:18 <+doy> yeah 23:18 <+doy> any thoughts for elf or hells? 23:18 <@dpeg> but I frightened due when I mentioned polar coordinates :) 23:18 <+doy> hehe 23:18 <@dpeg> hells are okay 23:19 <@dpeg> no real ideas for Elf 23:19 <+doy> i think a castle theme would be good for elf (since that's the feel i get from it now anyway), but not sure how to do that with full-map layouts 23:21 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 23:21 <@dpeg> simply calling for ideas will help 23:21 <+doy> yes 23:21 < Vandal> what up 23:21 <@dpeg> I mean, Swamp is most urgent and there are now ideas. So that's good. 23:21 <+doy> yes 23:22 <@dpeg> Vandal: we discussed Fedhas, I closed 23 FRs, doy made a Layouts wiki. 23:22 < Vandal> neat :) 23:22 < Vandal> what is Layouts? 23:22 <+doy> Vandal: basic map generation (apart from vaults) 23:22 < Vandal> Oh, cool 23:22 <@dpeg> rooms+corridors, etc. 23:22 <+doy> with the goal of differentiating branches more 23:23 < Vandal> Also, did the new Blade table I made address your issues in your reply? Or not enough unique-ness to the individual weapons? 23:23 < Vandal> that is a good goal 23:23 < Vandal> doy 23:23 <@dpeg> ah, didn't look at that yet 23:23 < Vandal> np 23:23 < Vandal> I know you're busy 23:23 < Vandal> I actually cut 5 blades :o 23:23 <+doy> which ones? 23:24 < Vandal> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:item:blade_consolidation 23:24 < Vandal> it is of course a work in progress 23:24 < Vandal> any suggestions / ideas welcome 23:24 < Vandal> dpeg I made 2 lists 23:24 < Vandal> The first new list is just with cuts 23:24 < Vandal> So you can see how the remaining weapons compare with existing Axes 23:24 < Vandal> Second table added more flavour to Blades 23:25 < Vandal> (also a potential Dagger-not-so-terrible-but-still-not-a-"great"-melee-weapon variant) 23:25 <@dpeg> Vandal: the short blades page is excellent 23:25 < Vandal> I talked about removing Quick Blades with Due yesterday 23:25 <@dpeg> well structured and written 23:25 < Vandal> Thanks 23:26 < Vandal> due says, quick blades are not actually any more effective by the time you find them than using a Long Sword w/ your Sps and Kos etc.. 23:26 <@dpeg> for weapons, much more is needed -- numbers alone cannot cut it 23:26 < Vandal> Well dpeg that sounds like a larger issue 23:26 < TGW> I don't see what removing qbs would solve 23:27 -!- st_ [n=s@cpc1-stre3-0-0-cust207.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 23:27 < Vandal> TGW he wanted a shorter list 23:27 < Vandal> It solves that 23:27 <+doy> i think this is good, but should be part of a more extensive weapon rebalancing 23:27 < Vandal> falchion or long sword could probably be removed as well if you really wanted to 23:27 <+doy> if we're going this far 23:27 < TGW> katana + knife seems like the right choice 23:27 <+doy> yes 23:27 <+doy> those two definitely should go 23:28 < Vandal> due has played SpBe and can say from experience that Quick Blades are inferior to just using a 1H Long Blade 23:28 < TGW> knife is totally useless if butchering gets changed, katana dpeg doesn't like 23:28 < TGW> you could put demon blade in the same slot 23:28 < TGW> since it already has the same damage 23:28 <+doy> the others i don't have many opinions on (although daggers, demon blades, and triple swords should definitely stay) 23:28 < Vandal> Yeah 23:28 < Vandal> I agree doy 23:28 <@dpeg> I agree on removing knife and katana on short notice. 23:29 < Vandal> dpeg if you want the actual mechanics of weapons to change 23:29 < TGW> qb is very unique and it should definitely stay 23:29 <+doy> knife should just be removed now, once the butchering change goes in 23:29 <@dpeg> For all rest, in particular weapon differentiation, we should add the "moves" or whatever first. 23:29 < Vandal> Like having their damage type function differently 23:29 <+doy> the rest of this should wait until after 0.6 23:29 <@dpeg> doy: I made a Mantis item! 23:29 <+doy> dpeg: i saw! 23:29 <+doy> (: 23:29 < Vandal> That would be a bigger issue 23:29 <@dpeg> doy: butchering change is not for 0.6 -- too many interactions with code 23:29 <@dpeg> but is for 0.7 23:30 <+doy> dpeg: ah, okay 23:30 < Vandal> I think I get what you mean dpeg, you don't want a Long Blade to be an Axe with slightly different numbers 23:30 <@dpeg> doy: will leak lots of bugs, I am afraid 23:30 < Vandal> which is how they exist now 23:30 <@dpeg> Vandal: yes, exactly 23:30 < Vandal> that is sort of beyond the scope of that wiki page imo 23:30 <+doy> Vandal: yes, we should differentiate by brands too at least, like we did with launchers 23:30 <+doy> Vandal: right, which is why i said this stuff should be part of a bigger weapon rebalancing thing 23:30 < Vandal> I agree totally, it would enhance the game and make weapon selection more meaningful 23:30 < Vandal> It would also possibly give you a reason to train more than 1 weapon type 23:31 < Vandal> and make cross training more important 23:31 <+due> Hi 23:31 < Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 23:31 < Vandal> hi due 23:31 < TGW> 'lo due 23:31 <+due> Yeah, quik blades suck. 23:31 < Vandal> also re: quick blades, unique does not equal useful 23:31 <+doy> i like quick blades 23:31 < TGW> vandal: are you sure a buff isn't the answer to that? 23:31 <+doy> but not sure if enough to definitely keep them 23:31 <+due> My approach would be to buff them, though. 23:31 <@dpeg> What I *really* want is this: (1) Within each skill (axe, blades etc.), the various weapons perform differently. The inaccuracy and slow speed should depend on skill and stats and actually matter, at least vs certain foes. (2) The various weapon *types* should be really different (i.e. you will play an axe fighter a bit different than a mace fighter). 23:31 <+due> At least first. 23:32 < TGW> they are in a completely different niche than anything else 23:32 <+due> Part of the issue is that, since vorpal was nerfed, a quick blade pales in comparison to a sabre of speed. 23:32 < Vandal> TGW they are in the same niche and Ogres :) 23:32 <+doy> dpeg: mace stabbing is a good first step for that 23:32 < Vandal> ineffective 23:32 < Vandal> as Ogres 23:32 <+doy> due: yes, that's true 23:32 < TGW> vandal: I don't appreciate that 23:32 <+doy> vorpal was pretty important for quick blades 23:32 <+due> Vorpal was basically a necessity. 23:33 < Vandal> by the time you find a QB monsters have a lot more AC than 5 base dmg can deal with effectively 23:33 <+due> Now, if you want to use quick blades in the end game, you need slaying, and lots of it. 23:33 < Eronarn> well, you can get Pain for them now :) 23:33 <+doy> yes 23:33 <@dpeg> I like the silliness of quickblades much less than the one of triple blades. 23:33 < TGW> @speed: is that going, or is the current trunk how it is? 23:33 <+due> It's staying as-is for now, no? 23:33 <@dpeg> TGW: not clear at the moment. 23:33 <@dpeg> for now sure 23:33 < Vandal> Anyways dpeg, please consider blade consolidation as a lead-in to overall weapon changes 23:33 < TGW> @qb: it's been a major goal of mine to put an additive brand on a quick blade 23:34 < Vandal> I don't think they need to be dealt with at the exact same time 23:34 < Vandal> Blade consolidation would be much easier 23:34 <+doy> speed should be removed from blades once the blades change is done 23:34 <+doy> and should only be on artefacts 23:34 < TGW> if you remove that possibility I won't forgive you 23:34 < TGW> doy: hm, yeah 23:34 <@dpeg> Vandal: no, of course not. I am just indicating what the broad goals are. 23:34 <+due> It's a possibility 23:34 <+due> but quickbladess need a buff 23:34 <+due> short blades users have no chance of doing any damage output now 23:34 <+doy> yes 23:34 <+due> not without berserk or might 23:34 <+doy> which is why i proposed the blades merge in the first place 23:34 <+doy> (: 23:34 < Vandal> quickblades are not a guarantee 23:35 < Vandal> even if you train Short Blades to 27 they are one of the rarer weapons 23:35 < Vandal> That alone won't make SB stand up 23:35 <+due> dpeg: Chaos isn't randomly generated. 23:35 <+due> Vandal: That too. 23:35 < TGW> expected qb is probably less than one even in oka games 23:35 <+doy> not that much less than one 23:35 <@dpeg> Oh, and for a *proper* weapon/combat system overhaul, we should settle and clarify the meaning of an abundance of parameters: weapon numbers (dam, hit, speed, mass), to-hit, to-dam, skill, Dex, Str 23:35 <+doy> but yeah, around there 23:35 <+due> Anyway, hellooo 23:35 <+doy> dpeg: yes 23:35 <@dpeg> due: good 23:35 <+due> !messages 23:35 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (5h 29m 16s ago): In my opinion, http://sprunge.us/BOTg looks best (which was an early take). 23:36 < Vandal> It seems I've opened up a can of worms 23:36 -!- st__ [n=s@cpc1-stre3-0-0-cust207.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:36 < Vandal> Good can though 23:36 <+due> Vandal: Combining weapon classes is always controversial :) 23:36 <@dpeg> Vandal: yes, but it's a valid can of worms. Not "cooking" or "selling to shops". 23:36 < Vandal> well not that 23:36 <+doy> dpeg: what branch is that map for? 23:36 <@dpeg> doy: ask due! 23:36 < TGW> well, there are two wormss I wouldn't mind escaping 23:36 <@dpeg> Crypt, I think. 23:36 <+doy> due: what branch was that map for? 23:36 <+due> doy: I was fucking aorund with level generators last night 23:36 < Vandal> I've prompted dpeg to start the total weapon overhaul revolution~ 23:36 < Vandal> accidently 23:36 <+due> doy: I didn't have a map specificaly in mind 23:36 <+doy> ah, okay 23:36 <+doy> due: should comment on the layout wiki page 23:37 <+doy> i wrote it up a couple hours ago 23:37 < Vandal> hey while we've got so many people talking 23:37 <@dpeg> Vandal: no, we are thinking about weapons all the time 23:37 <+due> It would be cool for snake, I think 23:37 <+doy> due: yeah, that was my thought 23:37 < Vandal> dpeg mentioned last night a possible "Stabbing Quiver" 23:37 <+doy> should make the corridors less straight though 23:37 <+due> doy: It's just the corridors that annoyed me. 23:37 <+due> doy: YES. 23:37 <+doy> (: 23:37 < Vandal> An interface solution to the annoyance of swapping weapons constantly to Stab 23:37 <+due> That's an interesting idea 23:37 <+doy> some of the overlaps with the rooms look kinda odd, but that should be more easily fixable 23:37 < Vandal> Assassins probably have 4 completely different and necessary weapon options 23:37 < Vandal> even without magic 23:38 < Vandal> Stab weapon, real melee weapon, blowgun, and darts 23:38 < Vandal> swapping between real melee + darts / Blowgun is easy 23:38 <+due> doy: Yes, greensnark liked two diamonds smushed together, though, for room shape. 23:38 < Vandal> you can assign those to ' 23:38 < Vandal> but then the stabbing part gets clunky 23:39 <+doy> due: yeah, it looks interesting, just talking about the random single # tiles that it generates in places 23:39 < Vandal> Like, I don't mind carrying around the most common weapon in the game just to be able to stab 23:39 < Vandal> (imo this is a lot like the pre-requisite to butcher, though) 23:39 < Vandal> Having a dagger available is not part of the challenge 23:40 < Vandal> weapon swapping is not interesting enough to justify itself as part of the challenge either imo 23:40 <+doy> Vandal: but the special properties of the dagger is actually important 23:40 < TGW> would it be a positive change to tie stabbing to weapon skill? 23:40 <+due> doy: Yeah, I'm going to write an iterator that removes those. 23:40 < Vandal> doy, not so much 23:40 <+doy> unlike with butchering 23:40 <+doy> Vandal: sure it is 23:40 < Vandal> sabres do the job just as well 23:40 <+due> The joys of count neighbours 23:40 < Vandal> we've pretty much established this 23:40 <+doy> Vandal: what? 23:40 < TGW> wait what? 23:40 <+doy> who has established this 23:40 <+due> Hm 23:40 <+due> They do 23:40 <+doy> because they're wrong 23:40 < TGW> that's incorrect and I haven't seen such discussion 23:40 <+due> But *only* when you get the right weapon and stabbing skills. 23:41 <+due> ??stab bonus 23:41 < Vandal> in the tables, yes, daggers get a bonus to the +30 dmg and reach the cap faster 23:41 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled stab_bonus in my learndb. 23:41 <+due> I should've clarified. 23:41 <+due> ??stabbing 23:41 < Henzell> stabbing[1/2]: A succesful stab multiplies damage done by a factor proportional to stabbing skill. Expect about double damage at 10 skill. Short and long blades get two multipliers, 3-4 times normal damage at 10 skill. Finally, short blades get a bonus of up to 30 added *before* multiplying. See http://chaosforge.org/crawl/index.php?title=Stabbing 23:41 < Vandal> but sabres also get the +30 dmg, they just won't cap out as quickly 23:41 < TGW> vandal: it's got stepdowns 23:41 < TGW> it is insanely hard to get non-daggers to the cap 23:41 <+due> TGW: I was always of the opinion that you could reach the cap with sabres, just not as quickly as daggers. 23:41 <@dpeg> this discussion is not related to Vandal's stabbing quiver 23:41 < Vandal> the bonus cap doesn't need to be reached though 23:42 <+due> Anyway. 23:42 <+doy> well, i'm saying that weapon switching for stabbing is relevant 23:42 < Vandal> because the real dmg is the 600-1000% bonus 23:42 <+due> I have email to read 23:42 < TGW> vandal: well, or close to it 23:42 <@dpeg> a completely different idea to everything is this: 23:42 < TGW> most people don't have stabbing 20+ 23:42 < TGW> at least, I didn't 23:42 < Vandal> also thanks dpeg, I get distracted 23:42 <+doy> because you'll be having your non-primary weapon out while moving toward the monster 23:42 <+doy> and the monster could wake up 23:42 < TGW> doy: yeah 23:42 < Vandal> maybe you shouldn't be 1 shotting Stone Giants with less than 20 skill anyway 23:43 < TGW> vandal: you could make a macro 23:43 <@dpeg> keep SBl, remove Stabbing; make attacking unaware monsters in melee a stabbing attack (a move similar to cleaving with axes); SBl skill affects the bonus to stabbing 23:43 <+doy> and weapon switching takes important combat turns 23:43 <+due> dpeg: I am absolutely for this. 23:43 < TGW> f1-4 = wa wb wc wd or so 23:43 < Vandal> dpeg that is a good idea 23:43 <+doy> dpeg: or, just s/SBl/Stabbing/, s/Stabbing/SBl/ in that proposal 23:43 < Vandal> TGW, fumbling around weapon swapping is not fun no matter how you do it 23:44 <@dpeg> What I like about my proposal is that it makes Stabbing an implicit move (i.e. no direct skill), just as all other moves will be such 23:44 < Vandal> for EVERY monster you run into 23:44 <+due> TGW: There's always a chance of the monster waking up as you swap weapons. 23:44 < Vandal> and dpeg 23:44 < Vandal> I can see this being a good idea 23:44 < TGW> wait, you're trying to change that? 23:44 < TGW> dpeg: yes! 23:44 < Vandal> because it gives Sblades a niche 23:44 < Vandal> a REAL niche 23:44 < Vandal> because the Sblades skill itself doesn't have one 23:44 <+due> They're eensy! 23:44 < Vandal> So 23:44 <@dpeg> so yes, it's close to s/Stabbing/SBl, sure 23:44 < Vandal> We would eventually give Long Blades / Maces their own special proc as well? 23:45 < Vandal> Or other unique mechanic? 23:45 < TGW> (I would argue that sbl is the only weapon skill with a niche, but I see what you mean) 23:45 < TGW> (or one of, say, three) 23:45 < Vandal> TGW you seem to think being terrible qualifies as a niche :P 23:45 <+due> So many emails :| 23:45 <@dpeg> but it as honest as removing SBl, as may have other advantages 23:45 <+due> TGW: It might have a niche, but said niche is cramped, boring, annd dusty. 23:45 <@dpeg> due: Mantis? Just delete. 23:45 < TGW> fair enough 23:45 < Vandal> so 23:45 < Vandal> extending this to Maces 23:45 <@dpeg> Vandal: there are various FRs where such moves are proposed, I didn't get around moving them to Mantis yet 23:46 <+doy> maces already have stab things 23:46 <@dpeg> it's a lot of work: many comments, lots of editing 23:46 <+doy> with the confusion effect 23:46 < TGW> off topic a bit, is there a way to get mantis to stop sending me mails when people edit my issues? 23:46 < Vandal> Maces could have a chance of a mini-stun that grows with skill? Like a 1 turn loss for the monster? 23:46 <@dpeg> TGW: yes, I think so 23:46 <+doy> Vandal: that's already in 23:46 < TGW> I tried unchecking all the boxes but it seems fairly persistent 23:46 < Vandal> I mean in normal combat 23:46 < Vandal> Not sneak attacks 23:46 <@dpeg> Vandal: one idea is that with axes, you attack the adjacent enemies as well 23:46 < TGW> doy, he means like freeze does 23:46 < Vandal> dpeg that is pretty cool 23:47 < Vandal> aoe with melee would be hot 23:47 < Vandal> so would ministuns 23:47 <+due> mini-stun is already existant with small clubs. 23:47 < TGW> due: in normal combat? 23:47 <+due> I really like the knockback idea. 23:47 <+doy> changing melee combat this significantly will require a lot of rebalancing 23:47 <+due> Which nobody's probably mentioned. 23:47 <+due> doy: Agree. 23:47 < Eronarn> knockback would be really annoying in practice, i think 23:47 < Vandal> mini-stun in normal combat? 23:47 <+doy> due: problem with knockback is that you don't always want it to happen 23:47 < TGW> yeah, passive knockback doesn't seem like a good thing 23:47 < Vandal> and yeah knockback sounds better on paper than it is in execution 23:48 <@dpeg> these are the conditions: no drawbacks [*]; no ability or other activation -- usage should simply depend on how you move/attack. ([*]: there are cases when you may not want to attack anybody but your target -- but you can do this by attacking carefully, with Ctrl-Dir or * Dir) 23:48 < Vandal> knockback is really great.. for ranged weapons :) 23:48 < Eronarn> i'd rather see knockback that slams enemies into each other / into walls 23:48 <+due> doy, TGW, but that's part of the balance! 23:48 < TGW> itt ganging up on due 23:48 <@dpeg> NOte that whatever you now come up with, it should also apply to monsters attacking you. 23:48 < Vandal> example: you're corridor fighting and knock a monster back out of the corridor.. now his friend walks in and that one is still alive and healing while you fight something else 23:49 < TGW> you could increase mace delay but add the passive mini-paralysis 23:49 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49 <@dpeg> well, if one of you is enthusiastic enough about this to make the move, I'd be happy (one of the FRs is found under "tactics") 23:49 <+doy> i think this all needs a wiki page 23:49 <@dpeg> of course 23:49 < TGW> sure 23:49 <+doy> to collect ideas in an organized manner 23:49 <@dpeg> but I won't touch wiki today 23:50 <+doy> because right now people are just shouting out random things 23:50 <@dpeg> plus, the FRs! 23:50 <+doy> and it's not really useful as a discussion 23:50 <+doy> (: 23:50 <@dpeg> doy: I am not. 23:50 < Eronarn> doy: short blades should be coated in bees 23:50 < Vandal> dpeg the one thing you may have overlooked 23:50 < Vandal> Blades as one catagory could still function like you just mentioned 23:50 <+doy> dpeg: i just mean that the conversation isn't very focused, since we're trying to talk about so much at once 23:51 <+due> wiiiikiiii 23:51 <+doy> getting some actual ideas written down would give us actual things to talk about 23:51 <@dpeg> doy: I agree with that. 23:51 -!- |eith| [n=eith@86-40-255-139-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 23:51 < Vandal> I write ideas down all the time XD someone elses' turn while I try LEague of Legends again.. my friend is insisting 23:51 <@dpeg> I don't want to touch those FRs because they are looooong. And I did the Amulets FR yesterday, which had 53 comments, many of them looooong. 23:52 * doy is reading through the level design documents so i can get some vault/layout tweaking started 23:52 <+due> doy: I gave up on that and just dived head-first in. :) 23:52 <+doy> hehe 23:52 <+doy> it is long 23:52 <+due> Oh 23:52 <+due> Can someone look at the wizmode prompt issue? 23:53 <+due> It's driving me crazy because I can't specify the name of a portal vault. 23:53 <+doy> due: you can just revert that commit for now 23:53 <+doy> locally i mean 23:53 <@dpeg> doy: you don't need all of it. 23:53 <+due> Which commit was it? 23:53 <+due> I didn't realise it was a commit at all. 23:53 <+due> Also, most of teh stuff used in building layouts isn't documented. :) 23:53 <+doy> 4294ce7 23:54 <+doy> dpeg: sure, but good to know what's available 23:55 < Vandal> dpeg don't mean to beat a dead horse, but, while your idea of making Short Blades into the Stabbing skill would give people a reason to bother skilling it, the greater issue of "why would I ever use a Short Blade outside of Stabbing" remains 23:56 < Vandal> Unless you don't think this is an issue at all 23:56 < Vandal> And Short Blades just won't be meant for use in actual combat 23:56 < Vandal> In which case they still need a quiver 23:56 <+due> You can use stabbing inthe end-game. 23:56 <+due> I stabbed TRJ and ancient liches. 23:56 < Vandal> and? 23:57 < Vandal> I didn't say anything about the utility of Stabbing 23:57 < Vandal> Making Short Blades into the Stabbing skill is essentially what dpeg suggested 23:57 <@dpeg> Vandal: as I keep saying, the questions of "why a SBl skill" and "improve stabbing interface" are completely separete. 23:57 < Vandal> right 23:57 < TGW> merging is a solution to both, however 23:57 < Vandal> So while we answered one question, the one I started with remains 23:57 <@dpeg> I agree that having two skills (SBl + Stabbing) is not good. 23:57 <+doy> TGW: not really 23:58 <@dpeg> merging does not solve the interface problem 23:58 <@dpeg> if you think there is one 23:58 <+doy> i don't think there is one 23:58 <@dpeg> Vandal does 23:58 < Vandal> It solves it in that you wouldn't have to have a separate weapon for stabbing than you would for melee combat 23:58 < TGW> doypeg: well, if you're being made to train sbl to stab 23:58 < TGW> you won't be swapping weapons 23:58 -!- _eith_ [n=eith@86-40-254-250-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 23:58 < Vandal> You still would because sblades are junk in real combat 23:58 < Vandal> this has been established 23:58 <+doy> TGW: so then, not merging would be a solution 23:58 <@dpeg> you could still want to use a dagger for stabbing and a larger blade for combat 23:59 <+due> s/could/would/g 23:59 < Vandal> dpeg doesn't this remind you of the "why are we all carrying knives?" issue? 23:59 <+doy> Vandal: no 23:59 <+doy> because butchering doesn't happen in combat 23:59 <+doy> stabbing does 23:59 -!- _eith_ [n=eith@86-40-254-250-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59 <+doy> and so the turns required for weapon switching are actually relevant 23:59 < Vandal> So you have a small blade with you all the time 23:59 <+due> knifes are also annoying 23:59 <+due> .. knives. 23:59 < Vandal> sharp enough to cut up monsters