00:02 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-114-135-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 00:08 -!- ais523 [n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08 < TGW> any chance delayed fireball can get fixed? 00:09 <+doy> it's broken? 00:09 < TGW> it's infinitely storable 00:10 < TGW> i.e. take off armour, mem it, scum to cast it, hell you can amnesia it if you want 00:10 < TGW> release, repeat 00:10 < ogaz> that's a lot of work(and you'll need some decent skill since it's a level 7 spell) to have one fireball handy 00:10 <@dpeg> I never really liked the DF mechanic. What's the idea behind it? 00:10 < Ashenzari> gourmand shown in gray with carnivore 1 (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=349) by tinyrodent 00:11 <+doy> i like the idea behind differentiating spells by more than just power, etc 00:11 < TGW> dpeg: I like the instantaneous release and the spell levels mechanic 00:11 <+doy> yeah, those parts 00:11 <+doy> the rest of it could probably stand some tweaking 00:11 < TGW> though there are definitely better applications for it, or it could be used for fireball better 00:12 < TGW> dunno 00:12 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["goodbye"] 00:13 < TGW> would partial slot sharing be hideous to code? 00:13 < TGW> like, 3-slot refund instead of the full 6 00:13 <+kilobyte> it sees about no use, and this suggests it isn't broken 00:13 <+kilobyte> I'd rather concentrate on, say, poison arrow vs LCS 00:13 <+doy> kilobyte: mostly because fireball itself sees about no use 00:14 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I am not saying it's broken. I just wondered if there was something (like D&D) where the idea comes from. 00:14 < TGW> dpeg: I'm pretty sure it's a D&D spell that does something completely different 00:14 <@dpeg> aha 00:15 <@dpeg> When I played unspoiled and I used DF for the first time, I had no idea how to release the damn thing. Wasn't explained anywhere, so I never used it again :) 00:15 < TGW> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/delayedblastfireball.htm 00:15 <+kilobyte> "This spell functions like fireball, except that it is more powerful and can detonate up to 5 rounds after the spell is cast. The burst of flame deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 20d6)." 00:15 < TGW> similar 00:15 <+kilobyte> "You select the amount of delay upon completing the spell, and that time cannot change once it has been set unless someone touches the bead (see below)." 00:15 < TGW> sup kilo 00:15 <@dpeg> okay, thanks 00:16 -!- AceTetra [n=AceTetra@97-126-65-38.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:16 < TGW> hmm, that version seems more fun :| 00:16 <+sorear> TGW: being able to cast DF with your armor off and out of combat is the whole point of DF 00:16 < TGW> sorear: and it's a terrible point 00:16 < TGW> that's exactly why div doesn't exist 00:16 <+kilobyte> it's timed, so it looks like these are totally different ideas 00:22 <@dpeg> should rethink DF at some point 00:24 <+doy> i think it would be fine if casting the spell told you how to release it, and if the ability timed out after a certain number of turns 00:24 <+doy> i like it other than those aspects 00:25 -!- Vandal [n=dissiden@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has left ##crawl-dev [] 00:26 < N78291> it could be untimed but have a chance of exploding on hard hits 00:26 < N78291> though I suppose that isn't much of a risk with rF 00:29 -!- by [n=rob@e177085143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:47 < TGW> doy: if it's too long you're just adding tedium 00:47 < TGW> but yeah, that was my first thought too 00:53 <@dpeg> I believe that DF should be a purely tactical affair. 00:53 <@dpeg> eg. it could go off exactly seven turns after you cast it 00:54 <@dpeg> that's not so good, I retract :( 00:54 <+doy> i think just making it not permanently storable would be fine 00:55 <+sorear> I think it's working as designed 00:56 < TGW> that doesn't prevent it from being a bad thing 00:56 <+doy> right 00:56 <+doy> i think the design is bad 00:56 < TGW> all issues are not bugs 00:56 <+doy> and we should change that 00:57 <@dpeg> sorear: the fact that nobody uses it is also a problem. You could argue that Glamour worked as designed :) 00:58 < TGW> theoretically, people should use it 00:58 <+doy> like i said, i think the fact that nobody uses it is a side effect of nobody using fireball 00:58 < TGW> true 00:58 <+doy> if more people used fireball, more people would use df 00:58 <@dpeg> well, you could say that DF is a way to boost Fireball 00:59 <+doy> not enough, considering it's only really usable once per battle 00:59 < TGW> sure, but it's effectively free 01:00 < TGW> it's the fountain of spells 01:00 < TGW> you could use the mechanic in other ways though 01:01 < TGW> like, make the imp < demon < greater demon chain share levels 01:03 <@dpeg> TGW: I don't thikn that's a good idea. 01:03 < TGW> ok 01:03 < TGW> that's pretty far down on the list of things that would make me use summoning, yes 01:04 <@dpeg> TGW: would, for example, encourage players with Greater Demon to also use the lesser spell every time. 01:06 < syllogism> I used delayed fireball and fireball last game. Fireball is very nice really 01:06 < syllogism> err 01:06 < syllogism> and delayed fireball 01:07 < eith> i love fireball, i think it gets a bit of bad rep 01:14 <@dpeg> oh. I use Fireball too. I just never use DF 01:15 < purge> maybe bolt of fire should be removed then everyone can use fireball! 01:15 < purge> make fire a different play style 01:16 < purge> and would make conjure flame even more useful 01:16 <@dpeg> purge: not sure a bad idea 01:16 <@dpeg> *such 01:16 <@dpeg> but spell overhaul --> later 01:17 <@dpeg> i.e. store the ideas somewhere :) 01:17 < eith> ooh, thats interesting i have to say 01:17 < purge> i'm waiting for eronarn to populate his table 01:19 < ogaz> people would just cast bolt of magma instead, since apparently it's actually respectable now 01:20 < purge> bolt of magma is single target? 01:20 < ogaz> no 01:25 <@dpeg> ogaz: that's just one more reason 01:30 <@dpeg> phew, miscies wiki finished 01:30 <@dpeg> this is work! 01:34 <@dpeg> bye 01:34 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit ["zzz"] 01:34 -!- purge83_ [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:35 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37 -!- Vandal [n=dissiden@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:37 < Vandal> must have accidently parted 01:37 < Vandal> So, dpeg offered me the task of writing Monster Descriptions 01:38 < Vandal> I would like to do that 01:38 <+sorear> wo it 01:38 <+sorear> do it 01:38 < Vandal> I just need a little help getting started, like, what file are they contained in? 01:39 < syllogism> dat/descript/monster.txt 01:39 < Vandal> cool 01:41 -!- purge83_ [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:43 < syllogism> one thing to keep in mind is that the description has to match pre-existing tiles 01:43 < Vandal> good point 01:43 < Vandal> I need to figure out how to enable wizmode I guess 01:43 < ogaz> & 01:44 < syllogism> the tiles are in rltiles\dc-mon 01:47 < Vandal> I don't know what that is :o 01:48 < syllogism> a director 01:48 < syllogism> y 01:49 < Vandal> Online you mean? I don't see it in my windows folder 01:50 < syllogism> i guess if you just grabbed the tar ball, you don't have the tiles 01:52 < syllogism> but you can view them online 01:52 < eith> Vandal: did you actually download the source, and not just a binary? 01:52 < Vandal> just a binary 01:52 < eith> you need the source then 01:53 < Vandal> a moment please 01:55 < syllogism> I suppose you can grab the tiles binaries 01:55 < syllogism> but it has all the tiles in one file 01:55 < syllogism> and they aren't obviously named 02:00 -!- Vandal|Recon [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:00 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:00 -!- Vandal is now known as Vandal|Laptop 02:00 -!- Vandal|Laptop is now known as Vandal|LT 02:00 -!- Vandal|Recon is now known as Vandal|PC 02:01 <+due> Hi. 02:01 < Henzell> due: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 02:01 <+due> !messages 02:01 < Henzell> (1/2) greensnark said (9h 44m 59s ago): You and I should do a Great Grammar Overhaul for Crawl. Lots of terrible English in there now :/ 02:01 < Vandal|PC> Ok, much better, now if you give me links I can open them on the computer I would use them on 02:01 <+due> !messages 02:01 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (3h 25m 6s ago): Not forgotten. I already sacrificed a sheep for better results, but it seems that kids and nuns are needed. 02:01 < Vandal|PC> The one I'll be writing and such on 02:01 * due grins. 02:01 < Vandal|PC> hiyo due 02:04 < Vandal|PC> Ok.. so the source code 02:04 < Vandal|PC> This is the PC that I installed Visual Studio and Eclipse on too 02:04 < eith> need to pull it from git 02:04 < eith> ??git 02:04 < Henzell> git[1/1]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref 02:04 < Vandal|PC> And I need a program to do that? 02:04 < TGW> 'lo due 02:04 < eith> yes git =p 02:04 -!- AceTetra [n=AceTetra@97-126-65-38.tukw.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:05 < eith> ive no clue how you install git on windows tbh 02:05 < syllogism> read install.txt 02:05 < eith> =p 02:06 < Vandal|PC> I think I found something 02:06 < Vandal|PC> http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/ 02:07 < syllogism> yes, that's in install.txt ... 02:07 < eith> yea, thats it alright 02:07 < Vandal|PC> I don't know where your install.txt file is located 02:07 < Vandal|PC> It isn't in my binary zip 02:07 < syllogism> http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt;h=1b78c68ade4d6ca2f4c596645e8d5edcfb176112;hb=HEAD 02:08 <+due> Helloooo. 02:08 < Vandal|PC> Thanks 02:08 <+due> msysgit is okay, actually 02:10 < Vandal|PC> What is MSYS ? 02:10 < Vandal|PC> That is what the MinGW site has 02:10 <+due> No, install msysgit. 02:10 <+due> It has an inbuilt mingw build with most everything you need. 02:11 <+due> Except flex and bison, but you don't really need them unless you're fucking with the parser. 02:11 < Vandal|PC> oh.. ok. 02:11 <+greensnark> Morning due 02:11 <+due> greensnark! Do we have turtles? 02:11 <+due> greensnark: And what did you think of Kurma as the Emperor Turtle? 02:11 <+greensnark> Well, colloquially kurma is a dish 02:12 <+due> Hm. 02:12 <+due> I thought that was korma? 02:12 <+due> Which is... delicious. 02:12 <+greensnark> Pronunciation varies! 02:12 <+greensnark> In the south it's pronounced kurma :P 02:12 <+due> But surely people would recognise turtle Kurma as being... turtle Kurma rather than turtle curry? 02:12 <+greensnark> And no, I've been traveling, no Crawl hacking yet 02:13 <+due> Ah. 02:13 <+greensnark> due: dpeg regards turtles as Food :P 02:13 <+due> What's the grammar fixup required? Apparently I am excellent as grammar, but not speeling. 02:14 < Vandal|PC> Do I want Unix style line endings or Windows style line endings? 02:14 <+greensnark> Tell it not to change line endings at all 02:14 <+due> greensnark: Heh, and two headed ogres will throw one of their clubs; I thoguth you'd fixed the case where dual-wielders would throw their secondary weapon? 02:14 <+due> Vandal|PC: Tell it not... yeah. 02:14 < Vandal|PC> roger 02:14 <+greensnark> due: Apparently not 02:15 < TGW> tructru: dc it try to wear-ID 02:15 <+due> TGW: Wrong window? 02:15 < TGW> yes 02:15 < Vandal|PC> woo hoo 02:15 < TGW> quite a bit 02:15 < Vandal|PC> I am gitting like some kind of crazy linux guy 02:15 < Vandal|PC> Thanks guys 02:15 * due gits greensnark. 02:15 < eith> =p 02:15 < Vandal|PC> due I installed Ubuntu today to try and be cool, and it totally backfired 02:16 < Vandal|PC> I am still not the man 02:16 <+due> Haha, oh dear. 02:16 < eith> haha ubuntu >.> 02:16 <+due> Hey, I use Ubuntu. :p 02:16 < Vandal|PC> If ubuntu doesn't support my USB Wifi, nothing will 02:16 <+due> Really? 02:16 <+due> What brand is it? 02:16 -!- Enne [n=enne@cpe-076-182-101-004.nc.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Enne] by ChanServ 02:16 < eith> oh usb wifi, your screwed id say 02:16 < Vandal|PC> Rosewill, has over 100 user reviews on Newegg 02:17 < eith> never heard of them oO 02:17 <+due> Enne! Hullo. 02:17 <+sorear> Enne: Hey! 02:17 <+Enne> Howdy. :) 02:17 < AceTetra> what's more relevant is the chipset maker 02:17 <+due> We discussing turtles. 02:18 <+due> ... are discussing turtles. 02:18 < Vandal|PC> wooooooo 02:18 < Vandal|PC> I found the monsters w/ names 02:18 < Vandal|PC> curse_toe, haha 02:19 <+due> MONS_CURSE_TOE. 02:19 <+due> Enne: I'm not sure if you saw/replied to jpeg's email about dynamically making tiles transparent; is it possible with masks? 02:19 <+due> I know that you can do this in the C++ with masks (Cf. water and items), but I wasn't sure if it was possible with rltiles. 02:20 <+Enne> It's not possible with masks, but it is possible in general. 02:20 <+due> Oh, excellent. 02:20 <+Enne> Am working on that now. :) 02:21 <+due> Yay Enne! 02:21 <+due> I am... working, apparently. 02:21 < Vandal|PC> I like the Yaktaur tiles XD 02:23 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 02:27 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:28 < Cryp71c> Is there anywhere specific devs take feedback on trunk? 02:28 <+due> ??mantis 02:28 < Henzell> mantis[1/2]: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/ 02:28 < Cryp71c> Thanks 02:29 < Vandal|PC> bug reports and feature requests go there, but you can also browse the wiki first and see if anyone has already started a page about your subject 02:29 < Vandal|PC> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php 02:29 <+sorear> Enne: Are there any pieces of savefile metadata you'd really like to be able to access? 02:30 < Vandal|PC> If you have a lot to say, making a wiki page is probably better 02:30 <+sorear> Enne: in particular, things which would be useful for tiles 02:30 < purge> Enne: sorry i messed up on the slime tiles i thought there were only 3 types not *5* 02:30 <+Enne> sorear: In what context? I'm not really sure what you're asking. 02:31 <+Enne> purge: You didn't mess up. The images just get re-used for multiple sizes. :) 02:31 < purge> well i figured you were probably were saying to youself, "wtf, there are only 3?" 02:32 <+Enne> sorear: Currently the player's doll is saved so that it can be displayed when selecting a save game. I think it might be saved separately in that tdl file? 02:32 <+Enne> purge: Nah, I was thinking 3 is better than just having 1. :) 02:33 <+Enne> purge: If you draw two others, I'll certainly add them. 02:33 <+sorear> Enne: is there any other information that it would be useful to pull out? 02:34 <+Enne> sorear: Not that I can think of. 02:34 <+sorear> ok 02:35 <+due> Okay, time to go. 02:41 <+greensnark> The titanic slime creature should obviously wield a ship 02:41 <+greensnark> A pirate ship 02:42 < Vandal|PC> :) 02:52 < Vandal|PC> So, how should I do this? Just edit the monsters.txt file based on the tiles, and pass it along to someone intermittently? 02:53 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@88-148-193-127.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 02:59 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 03:00 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["."] 03:01 < Twinge> Hmm. Why does Gretell report giant gecko, for example, as 1 EXP when both by formula and in-game it appears to always be 2? 03:06 < Twinge> Also, I guess when the formula checks 'max hitpoints' of a monster, it's checking that specific mob's maxHP rather than the max possible HP for that mob... 03:06 < Vandal|PC> Interesting, so the more hp the monster has, the more xp you get? 03:07 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 03:07 <+sorear> yes, the specific mob's HP 03:08 < Twinge> Vandal: Yes, to some extent. 03:09 <+sorear> I would guess a rounding glitch 03:10 <+sorear> @?? generates a LOT of geckos and averages their HP 03:10 <+sorear> *XP 03:10 <+sorear> it might be rounding down 03:12 < Twinge> Yeah, it seems like it might be truncating its estimates 03:12 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has joined ##crawl-dev 03:12 < Twinge> Monster HP doesn't vary by dungeon level does it? 03:12 <+sorear> no 03:21 < Vandal|PC> Bed for now.. tomorrow, this candle is lit 03:24 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 03:31 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 03:44 < Twinge> TGW: We'd talked about making both blowugn and dart enchantment factor in to proc rate, but ended up deciding against it. It would still be a possibility though 03:44 < TGW> why? 03:46 < Twinge> Ask due; he didn't like the idea, and I was fairly neutral on it. syl and I thought of averaging the two enchants, which is fine, but due preffered only the blowugn mattering which seemd okay too. 03:46 < Eifel> Has the snake pit rune been removed in trunk? 03:47 < TGW> due liked the idea when I asked him o_O 03:47 < TGW> I think at least 03:47 < TGW> but then, I might have asked doy 03:47 < TGW> or dpeg 03:52 < Twinge> Otherwise I guess the enchants only affect their mulch rate, right? Which is still useful not not all that useful. Blowgun mod doesn't really affect much else either though, since accuracy is mostly irrelevant since they're so accurate to begin with. 03:55 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 04:16 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:37 -!- N78291 [n=null@130-127-45-6.chouse.resnet.clemson.edu] has quit ["exit"] 05:02 <+due> TGW: It doesn['t scale well. 05:02 <+due> TGW: It would make a +1 blowgun not affect the chances. 05:04 <+due> Eifel: No, it shouldn't. 05:05 < Eifel> due: Ok, then I'm totally confused. Because I didn't find a rune in the snake pit 05:05 <+due> Enne: Is there a way to specify a specific size for tiles in windowed mode? 05:05 <+greensnark> !lm Eifel Snake:5 05:05 < Henzell> No milestones for Eifel (Snake:5). 05:05 <+due> Eifeltrampel? 05:05 < Eifel> Ja 05:05 <+greensnark> !lm Eifeltrampel Snake:5 05:05 < Henzell> 23. [2010-01-07] Eifeltrampel the Deadly Accurate (L15 MDFi) killed Wayne on turn 41060. (Snake:5) 05:05 < ogaz> !nick Eifel Eifeltrampel 05:05 < Henzell> Mapping Eifel = Eifeltrampel 05:05 <+greensnark> That's a bug 05:05 <+Enne> due: For the window? Or for tiles? 05:06 <+due> Enne: For the window. 05:06 <+due> Enne: It creates a window that's 1920*2x1080. :/ 05:06 <+due> And there doesn't seem to be a way of shrinking. 05:06 <+greensnark> Double HD window? :P 05:06 <+due> Heh, yeah. 05:06 <+Enne> due: RTFsettings file. :) 05:06 <+greensnark> I wonder when we'll get Crawl IMAX Tiles! 05:06 <+due> Woohoo, and then it crashed. 05:07 <+due> *** stack smashing detected ***: ./crawl terminated 05:07 <+due> ======= Backtrace: ========= 05:07 <+due> /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6(__fortify_fail+0x48)[0x20ede8] 05:07 <+due> /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6(__fortify_fail+0x0)[0x20eda0] 05:07 <+due> ./crawl(_Z3mprPKc16msg_channel_typei+0x6dc)[0x84a1226] 05:07 <+due> ./crawl[0x84a09fa] 05:07 <+due> Enne: Where are those located? 05:08 <+Enne> due: http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/settings/tiles_options.txt#l44 05:08 <+due> Oh. 05:08 <+due> RTF as in the acronym. 05:08 <+due> Okay, I am too braindead today. 05:08 <+due> Ignore me :) 05:08 <+greensnark> :P 05:08 <+due> I need foooood. 05:08 * due eats a turtle. 05:09 <+greensnark> Spiky turtles 05:09 <+greensnark> They could menace with spikes of awesome 05:10 <+due> Mmm, delicious. 05:10 < CIA-81> due * r4019ecbcd1b8 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (dc-item.txt item/weapon/brands/i-evasion.png): Re-use the Ring of Evasion brand for weapons of evasion. 05:12 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has quit [] 05:12 <+due> That solves that problem. 05:12 <+greensnark> What's the Lua api to loop over items on floor? :P 05:12 <+due> greensnark: stack_iterator 05:12 <+due> Er. 05:12 <+due> iter.stash_iterator(x, y) 05:12 <+greensnark> Hm, stack_search? 05:13 <+due> for item in iter.stash_iterator(x, y) do print items.name(item) end 05:13 <+due> You can also use iter.inventory_iterator for the player's inventory. 05:13 <+greensnark> I'll just use stack_search for the rune-exists test case 05:13 <+due> Okay 05:13 <+due> You're looking at Eifeltrampel's rune problem? 05:14 <+due> Did you get a copy of the save? 05:14 <+due> Eh, time to get lunch, back in a bit. 05:18 <+greensnark> I'm not sure how much the save itself will help if it's a simple case of the vault not being created 05:18 <+greensnark> There've been reports of missing runes before 05:21 < AceTetra> other than the snake rune? 05:22 <+greensnark> Only the snake rune that I recall 05:22 <+greensnark> I wonder why due throws an error if there's no stack :P 05:22 <+greensnark> Bad due 05:24 -!- bmh [n=brendan@209-6-234-82.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:24 < bmh> hi ##dev 05:26 <+greensnark> !seen syllogism 05:26 < Henzell> I last saw syllogism at Thu Jan 7 01:53:50 2010 UTC (2h 32m 57s ago) quitting without a message. 05:26 <+greensnark> Hey bmh 05:26 <+greensnark> !tell syllogism Someone died to a shark :P 05:26 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let syllogism know. 05:27 < bmh> joshua 05:27 < bmh> er.. you aren't CAO 05:27 <+greensnark> Apparently the shark just stole Aizul's kill, but still 05:27 < bmh> I didn't know that crawl had sharks 05:27 <+greensnark> The sharks don't have lasers... yet 05:27 <+greensnark> !tv * killer=shark 05:27 < Henzell> 2. minced, XL14 SETm, T:28477 requested for FooTV. 05:28 < Twinge> greensnark: The sharks actually have some threat potential - they can bloodlust for increased damage, have okay AC, and can sneak attack like swamp worms can. I'm thinking drop them 264->220, nothing too drastic 05:29 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:31 < bmh> Can a shark hit you if you're levitating? 05:32 < AceTetra> i always did wonder why you can fight a rat while levitating, but can't pick anything up 05:33 < Twinge> When the rat jumps up to bite your ankles, that's when you STRIKE 05:38 -!- Enne [n=enne@cpe-076-182-101-004.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["(((zzz)))"] 05:39 < Twinge> ...Should there be a limit to the number of uniques on a level? I'm skimming through levels on wizard for some test data, and jsut got Prince Ribbit, Piekl, Ijyb, and Blork the orc all on the same level :O They're 25% of the present monsters, hehe 05:39 < Twinge> Well, 50% if you count the slaves 05:39 -!- sorear [n=stefan@ip72-220-237-239.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:39 < CIA-81> greensnark * r9dc168e1b56f /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/clua/iter.lua dat/clua/test.lua test/rune-gen.lua): Add test case to generate branch ends and verify that runes and orb exist. 05:44 -!- sorear [n=stefan@ip72-220-237-239.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v sorear] by ChanServ 05:53 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@cpc1-oxfd15-0-0-cust71.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:55 -!- bmh [n=brendan@209-6-234-82.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 06:04 <+greensnark> Hmm, I seem to have a test case that repros the missing Snake rune 06:08 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-163-128.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:08 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA 06:08 < Eifel> Yeah, give me my snake rune back! ;-) 06:09 <+greensnark> Actually, I spoke too soon. I'd typoed serpentine rune in the test :P 06:09 <+greensnark> Your save is still alive, right? 06:09 < Eifel> It's still alive 06:10 < Eifel> I didn't managed to get him killed ;-) 06:10 <+greensnark> Let me see if remember the script to copy the save 06:12 < Eifel> ok 06:12 <+greensnark> Hey, the script works 06:12 <+greensnark> Napking rocks <3 06:12 < Eifel> hehe 06:12 < Eifel> I would be confused if his scripts wouldn't work ;-) 06:14 <+greensnark> Definitely no rune here 06:14 < Eifel> Actually I was wondering if the layout of the last snake level has been changed 06:15 <+greensnark> Did you leave the Snake pit at any point after entering it and before going to Snake:5? 06:15 <+greensnark> Your notes suggest you didn't, just checking 06:15 < Eifel> I'm not sure..... 06:24 < CIA-81> greensnark * rf8419c6ec131 /crawl-ref/source/test/snake-rune.lua: Another Snake:$ rune test case, this time moving down the dungeon and generating all intermediate levels from D:1 to Snake:$ before checking for the rune. 06:25 <+due> Still no Rune? 06:25 <+greensnark> Need a test case to repro it :P 06:25 <+due> Which ending did you get? 06:25 <+greensnark> There's no rune in the savefile 06:25 <+greensnark> No rune vault 06:25 <+due> No rune vault? 06:25 <+greensnark> Yeah, just another Snake level on Snake:5 06:25 <+due> The... fuck? 06:26 <+greensnark> Interesting, isn't it 06:26 <+due> Weird. 06:28 <+due> Is it generating teh vault in current trunk? 06:28 <+greensnark> It is 06:28 <+due> Did a check somehow get bypassed? 06:28 <+greensnark> My testcases are not able to reproduce the problem 06:31 <+greensnark> Ok, I've left a 50k iteration test running 06:31 <+greensnark> Even on my desktop, that's going to take a while 06:32 <+greensnark> One repro under controlled circumstances! 06:32 <+due> You got it? 06:32 <+greensnark> I wish 06:33 <+due> Oh. 06:33 <+due> I wish we could log debug messages from all crawl builds on CDO to a different place--non-accessible to the public. 06:33 <+due> Maybe for DGL builds we could get dprf, etc, to output to a log file? 06:34 <+greensnark> Yeah, maybe we should 06:34 <+due> It would be *really* nice. 06:35 <+greensnark> But Napkin would have to build debug builds, and they're slow 06:35 <+due> Yeah :/ 06:35 <+greensnark> I've already run enough tests on this that I wonder if this is a level generation bug or something really screwy 06:35 <+greensnark> Perhaps the Crawl process somehow started up without even loading the Snake:$ map 06:36 <+greensnark> I shall add sanity asserts to check for popular branch ends on game startup 06:37 * due pokes around. 06:38 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 06:39 <+due> Twinge: No, levels with multiple uniques are a really rare case. 06:39 <+due> Twinge: Like... really rare. 06:39 <+sorear> Let's cakk ut a feature 06:39 <+sorear> call it 06:39 < AceTetra> seems like it happens less often than 50k 06:39 <+sorear> 0.6: Now with less serpentine runes 06:39 < ogaz> actually, I remember hearing about this bug at least twice in 0.5 06:40 < AceTetra> i only remember once, but based on the phrasing here, i'd guess it happened fewer than 10 times 06:40 < AceTetra> and it wasn't the rune that was gone, but the entire vault 06:40 < ogaz> I think both times it was Snake, too 06:41 < AceTetra> hey, maybe this has something to do with me getting the same snake 5 every time. aren't there two? 06:42 <+due> They're evenly weighted, thoguh. 06:43 <+due> How crazy. 06:44 <+due> Venom branded weapons permabrand ammunition... 06:44 <+due> Or maybe they just aren't set to unbrand. 06:44 <+due> Ahh, that'll be it. 06:45 < CIA-81> greensnark * r278d5e8a894b /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/clua/sanity.lua main.cc maps.cc maps.h): Crawl now checks for the availability of branch ending vaults before starting up. 06:46 <+greensnark> Hm, actually that's a bogus check :P 06:46 <+due> Ah, you think there was a glitch with loading lair.des, and therefore no vaults were available, so none got placed? 06:46 <+greensnark> Now the game will fail to start if you've already generated one of those levels :P 06:47 <+greensnark> due: Either that or an incredibly rare level generation failure 06:47 <+due> Hah. 06:47 <+due> greensnark: Do you know where the code resets the temporary brandings of SPMSL_NORMAL ammo? 06:48 <+greensnark> I didn't know there were temporary brandings for ammo :) 06:48 <+greensnark> So no :) 06:49 <+due> greensnark: Hm, when you fire an unbranded arrow from a flaming bow--when it's on the floor, it's normal. 06:49 <+due> When you fire an unbranded arrow from a venom bow, when it lands, it ends up being poisoned. 06:49 <+greensnark> Does the flaming bow actually apply a brand 06:50 <+greensnark> Oh 06:50 <+greensnark> Eifel died 06:50 <+due> You shoot an +0 arrow of flame. 06:50 <+due> You see here a +0 arrow. 06:50 <+due> As opposed, You shoot a poisoned +0 arrow. 06:50 <+greensnark> Is that the exact wording? 06:50 <+due> You see here a poisoned +0 arrow. 06:50 <+due> No :) 06:50 <+greensnark> We should fix an +0 arrow in that case 06:50 <+greensnark> Ok :) 06:50 < Eifel> :-( 06:50 <+due> You shoot a +0 arrow of flame. 06:50 <+greensnark> Let me take a peek 06:50 <+due> "You see a +0 arrow here." 06:51 <+due> Unless it's in beam.cc... 06:51 <+due> I can't actually see any code that makes flame/frost work the way it does and not like poisoned. 06:52 < Eifel> puhh those merfolk aquamancer deal a lot of damage 06:52 < AceTetra> those merfolk and dracs sure do know a lot 06:52 < AceTetra> University of Zot 06:52 <+due> Oh. 06:52 <+due> Found it. 06:53 <+due> Huh. 06:53 <+due> item_use.cc:2108 06:53 <+greensnark> Venom launchers have always perma-oisoned their output, iirc 06:53 <+due> Okay, that needs to go, then 06:53 <+due> But maybe only for temp-branded launchers. 06:54 < Xiberia> flaming arrows should automulch then 06:54 < Xiberia> for consistency! 06:54 <+due> Xiberia: Their mulch rate is considerably higher than unbranded ammo. 06:54 < Xiberia> same for cold/venom? 06:54 <+due> Yeah, that was it. 06:55 < Xiberia> ah 06:55 < AceTetra> magic arrows don't automulch? 06:55 < AceTetra> i thought they turned into a flying flame or something as soon as you shot them 06:56 < AceTetra> which makes sense really, if you're willing to accept arrows acting like wands in the first place 06:56 <+due> ... we're willing to accept arrows acting like wands? 06:56 < AceTetra> that was confusing sorry 06:57 < AceTetra> in fact the whole phrasing was messed up 06:57 <+due> They don't auto-mulch, no. 06:57 < AceTetra> i think i meant to say, if darts of frost turn into frost bolts, so should arrows 06:58 <+due> That's only a description confusion, though. 06:58 <+due> Wands are bolts of cold. 06:58 < AceTetra> then how come i never see piles of 2 bolts of frost lying around after a centaur battle? 06:58 < AceTetra> oh i see what you meant there 06:59 <+due> And I should fix that. 06:59 < CIA-81> due * rd798e969ea1d /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Fix bows of venom branding ammo permanently (#347). 06:59 < AceTetra> anyway, crawl seems to have a consistent mechanic of branded missiles doing a magic effect and always mulching 06:59 <+due> Since when? 07:00 < AceTetra> since slings of frost and arrows of flame existed? 07:00 < Xiberia> that's not what has happened in my experience AceTetra 07:00 <+due> It's an increased rate, it's not always mulching. 07:00 < AceTetra> i only started playing on 0.4 so i don't know exactly when 07:00 <+due> Anyway, the current behaviour is the current behaviour. It will not change. 07:00 < AceTetra> then why have i NEVER seen magic missiles scattered around after a centaur battle? 07:01 <+due> Because bolts used to have an extremely high mulch rate. 07:01 <+due> Oh, you said centair. 07:01 <+due> *centaur. 07:01 < AceTetra> they're always in one pile where the centaur died, indicating that they do always mulch 07:01 <+due> They do not. 07:01 <+due> End of story. 07:02 < AceTetra> now i want to run 50k test missile shots just to see if that's true, because it's so consistent that i can rely on it 07:02 <+due> ... 07:02 <+due> The bolt of frost hits you! 07:02 <+due> Player damage: rolled=9; after AC=8 07:02 <+due> checking resistance: flavour=4 07:02 <+due> Damage: 8 07:02 <+due> These items seem quite similar. 07:03 <+due> c - 18 +0 arrows 07:03 < CIA-81> greensnark * r3f0203caad98 /crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Throw Icicle should not be a beam for monsters (monsters could fire it through multiple targets). 07:03 < AceTetra> "quite similar" means you combined a stack right? 07:05 <+due> Yes. 07:06 <+due> It hit me, I picked it up. 07:06 <+greensnark> AceTetra: In 0.5 elemental missiles have a 100% mulch rate 07:06 <+due> Moving swiftly along. 07:06 <+greensnark> This is different in master 07:06 < AceTetra> oh, i see 07:06 < AceTetra> that's what i was saying 07:06 <+due> Odd. 07:06 <+due> beam.flavour is ignored. 07:07 < AceTetra> due: what version were you testing that didn't mulch the arrows? 07:07 <+due> Master? 07:08 <+due> What else would I be checking? 07:08 < AceTetra> i thought we were discussing how it works in 0.5 07:09 <+due> ... 07:09 <+due> 0.5 is basically ancient history beyond bug fixing. 07:09 <+due> Assume that whatever we're discussing, unless clarified, is 0.6/currnet trunk. 07:10 < AceTetra> oh, when you asked "since when?" i thought that meant we were talking about existing behavior in any previous crawl release 07:10 <+due> We're not. 07:10 <+due> Ahah. 07:11 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 07:12 < AceTetra> ok, i get that we're talking about developing new crawl, but i meant that i thought you were asking about precedent 07:12 <+due> That's fine, but we're not. I'm talking about current behaviour. 07:12 <+due> We can move on now. 07:13 <+due> "The bolt of frost hits you" -> "The arrow of frost hits you", much better, yes? 07:13 < AceTetra> that is better, since it's still an arrow now, and hasn't been converted to a bolt of magical frost like in 0.5 07:14 <+due> print ammo_name 07:14 <+due> Hm, this is not gdb. 07:16 <+due> Excellent. 07:18 < elly> due: not yet. 07:24 < CIA-81> due * r14ab593bd4fa /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Call them " of ", not "bolt of ". 07:29 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-114-135-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:44 < Napkin> moin! 07:44 < Henzell> Napkin: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:47 <+due> Hm, I think maybe slingers should start with sling bullets as well as stones. 07:47 < Napkin> ohooh, Snake 5 borked? 07:47 <+due> Yeah. 07:47 < Napkin> I was just about to go there last night, when I saved and hit the bed :D 07:48 < Napkin> no need, due 07:48 <+due> I didn't find any on D:1! :( 07:48 < Napkin> bullets and stones can be found in huge amounts now 07:48 <+due> Yeah. 07:49 < Napkin> like darts too 07:49 <+due> Not as common as arrows, though. 07:49 <+due> Or darts, but still existant. 07:55 < Napkin> greensnark, would you like to test with me creation of snake5? 07:55 < Napkin> once I'm at work, that is 07:55 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:01 <+due> Hm. 08:01 <+due> What's the neutral type that will attack other monsters as well as you? 08:02 <+due> Ah, plain neutral. 08:02 <+due> Haha, frenzy is now a useful brand. 08:02 < Napkin> really? sounds weird 08:03 <+due> Napkin: It causes monsters to go berserk and insane at the same time. 08:03 <+due> So they attack anyone. 08:03 < Napkin> i meant "plain neutral" 08:03 <+due> You can use it on a pack of ugly things and they'll attack each other. 08:03 < Napkin> hehe 08:04 < Napkin> I met a centauer with arrows of chaos 08:04 < Napkin> very harsh 08:04 < Napkin> he almost made me glowing yellow 08:05 <+due> hehe nice 08:05 < Napkin> well, the "funny it happened" aspect yet 08:05 < Napkin> game-wise it was horrible 08:05 < Napkin> *aspect yes 08:13 <+due> Would it be too overpowered to charm as well as send them berserk? 08:14 < Eronarn> due: that seems more like a trog effect than a needle brand 08:14 < Eronarn> if you want an enslave needle, make it like the classical zombie 08:15 < Eronarn> enslave + mindless 08:15 <+due> Yeah, true. 08:15 <+due> Currently it's neutral + berserk. 08:15 < Eronarn> that's good 08:15 <+due> It's... effective but risky. 08:15 <+due> And I'm calling it "frenzy". 08:16 < AceTetra> is there any benefit to making the game not roll the die as much? 08:17 < AceTetra> seems excessive to draw 300 random numbers for uncontrolled blink, but i don't know how much that costs anyway 08:21 <+sorear> not enough to matter 08:21 <+sorear> 300 random numbers in a turn is undetectable 08:21 <+sorear> 100,000 is about the minimum you'll notice 08:24 < AceTetra> ok, but what about Adeon 08:24 < AceTetra> i heard that dude could do it even with a reseed every 100t 08:25 <+sorear> we're using a crypto PRNG 08:26 < AceTetra> good, i'd hate to think someone could play better than me just because of better automation 08:28 < AceTetra> i'm wondering now... in what situations is 300 die rolls undetectable? 08:28 < AceTetra> obviously if you tried to play tabletop crawl you couldn't roll the die that much 08:30 <+doy> AceTetra: why are you so fixated on random number generation 08:30 < AceTetra> also, the phrase "tabletop crawl" ought to indicate to me that i'm getting very silly indeed 08:30 < AceTetra> i am not sure why 08:31 < AceTetra> something about how 1 die roll should be able to do the job of 150 die rolls anyway 08:31 <+doy> that's... just not true at all 08:32 < AceTetra> and on the other hand, since it doesn't matter much, i was also wondering why it doesn't matter 08:32 < AceTetra> what's not true? 08:32 <+doy> " 1 die roll should be able to do the job of 150 die rolls anyway" 08:32 <+doy> that's just blatantly false 08:33 < AceTetra> ok, it is technically false, but i was wondering why it's practically false 08:33 <+doy> because the random numbers might be being used for completely unrelated things? 08:33 <+doy> or because they might be used to generate a probability distribution that's something other than uniform? 08:34 < AceTetra> ok, i meant that statement in thew context of die rolls being used for one decision 08:34 <+doy> for instance, 3d6/3 has a much different distribution than 1d6 08:34 <+doy> even though the range of values is the same for both 08:35 <+doy> crawl uses that idiom a lot 08:35 < AceTetra> like, where does this unfortunate player blink to? one die roll should cover that, since computers' floating-point dice have an arbitrary number of sides 08:35 < elly> you can generate the 3d6/3 distribution without actually doing 3 dice rolls though, I think 08:35 <+doy> well, sure 08:35 <+doy> it's much less clear what's going on though 08:35 < AceTetra> i'm saying blink uses a ton of die rolls for one decision 08:35 < elly> that is very true 08:36 <+doy> AceTetra: what part of the code is this? 08:36 < elly> 'rescale values geometrically towards the center after generating a random float' is not as comprehensible as '3d6/3' 08:36 < AceTetra> which is true? 08:37 < AceTetra> doy: i source dived for blink behavior, and there was a 150-iteration loop with a random number draw 08:37 <+sorear> AceTetra: profiles or bust 08:37 < AceTetra> sorear: what's profiles? 08:37 <+doy> AceTetra: um 08:37 <+sorear> a profiler is a program which analyzes another program and isolates the portions which contribute the most to running time 08:38 <+doy> well, that's just a complete misreading of the code anyway 08:38 <+sorear> if you run one of those, and it shows that blinking costs more than say 1% of a game's runtime, we'll pay attention 08:38 <+sorear> repeat after me 08:38 <+doy> AceTetra: the code almost never runs more than a couple iterations 08:38 <+sorear> premature optimization is the root of all evil 08:39 < AceTetra> yes sir 08:39 <+doy> notice all of the return statements inside the loop 08:39 < elly> *has* anyone profiled crawl recently? 08:39 < AceTetra> i do understand there's no point to optimizing the die rolls 08:39 <+sorear> elly: yes; Adeon did it when he replaced the Crawl RNG with a CSPRNG 08:39 < AceTetra> i just wanted to know if it's really true 08:40 <+doy> AceTetra: it's just doing it the way it is because picking a random tile in los and then checking for validity is simpler than generating a list of valid tiles beforehand and then picking one of those 08:40 <+sorear> the new RNG uses about 10% of runtime 08:40 <+sorear> total 08:40 < elly> that's a _big_ chunk compared to an LCRNG or something 08:40 <+doy> but if the first die roll picks a valid tile, then it just stops and uses that 08:40 < AceTetra> ok, i like that 08:40 <+doy> and that's almost always going to be the case 08:40 < elly> (or the abomination angband has) 08:41 < AceTetra> now, as for misreading, did i misread when i assumed you need a clear spot in that direction to make a successful semi-controlled blink? 08:41 <+doy> what? 08:41 < AceTetra> i tested and it seems that's false 08:43 < AceTetra> i source dived blink and then wrote blink[1], which says "Semi-controlled tries random blink from 2 to 7 steps in the direction you chose." now i think i might have to read the code again and delete that sentence. 08:43 <+sorear> elly: the best thing about a CSPRNG is that polynomial time unpredictability implies that all polynomial time simulations will give the correct expected result 08:44 < elly> sorear: while correct, that is stupid :P 08:49 < AceTetra> it's stupid?! it's so smart i can't even interpret it properly 08:49 < AceTetra> and i've been reading wikipedia entries about encryption since i saw the link 08:50 < AceTetra> ok, so regardless of all that, i'm still wondering what's the most recent version of crawl that Adeon could still have predicted. 08:51 < elly> the one just before the CSPRNG patch? 08:51 < AceTetra> i remember that Adeon's hilarious demonstration was on 0.5.something 08:52 < elly> that sounds too recent, but it could have been 08:52 < AceTetra> after the tournament, since adeon didn't want to fuck up the tournament 08:52 <+sorear> AceTetra: git log 08:52 <+sorear> search for Mikko Juola 08:53 <+Zaba> what exactly is Snake/Shoal/Swamp:$? 08:53 < AceTetra> branch:$ means end of branch 08:53 <+Zaba> ah 08:53 < AceTetra> so snake:$ = snake:5 08:53 <+Zaba> makes sense 08:54 < AceTetra> yes, it makes sense if you know pcre 08:54 <+Zaba> um 08:55 <+Zaba> you're saying that as if pcre is special in using $ for end of string 08:55 < AceTetra> oh, what else does that? 08:55 <+Zaba> perlre, posix re, the vi command '$' does that too 08:55 <+Zaba> and actually pretty much everything else dealing with regexes 09:04 < AceTetra> i know more about regexes now, thanks 09:04 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@80-41-157-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:16 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:23 < CIA-81> greensnark * rf3dd1c1ca8c0 /crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc maps.cc): Move map sanity checks into read_maps. 09:23 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@ip102.148.adsl.wplus.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba] by ChanServ 09:24 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc1-oxfd15-0-0-cust71.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:24 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA 09:32 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:33 <+due> I return. 09:34 <+due> Zaba! 09:34 <+Zaba> moin due 09:34 <+due> How goes the graves? 09:35 <+Zaba> it works, but throws some weird warnings when I walk over triggers several times. 09:35 <+due> D:1 gnoll. 09:35 <+due> Oh, really? Odd. 09:35 <+due> Let me die in my HaHu first. 09:38 < Adeon> AceTetra: 0.5.2 09:38 <+Zaba> due, besides, is there a lua api for making noise? 09:39 <+due> No, I need to write one 09:39 < AceTetra> oh, whoops, which question are you answering? 09:39 <+due> Well 09:39 <+due> I need to ffind the patch where I wrote one. 09:41 < Adeon> AceTetra: the version of crawl that only uses the MT prng 09:41 <+due> Or any non-DGL build. 09:42 < AceTetra> ok, what's the "MT prng"? 09:42 < Adeon> I think I spotted rng seeding in some curious places the last time I did fixes, so perhaps it's still possible to abuse prng in some way 09:42 < Adeon> mersenne twister, random number generation algorithm 09:45 * due does the mersenne twist. 09:45 * AceTetra twists in a resonant trans-due orbit 09:47 <+due> Hm, what are the chances of IDing a sling through use? 09:47 <+due> 1d(SK_SLINGS) per hit? 09:47 <+due> Oh, there we go. 09:57 <+due> Sling enchantment appears to affect stone mulch rate. Interesting. 10:12 <+due> !tell dpeg What do you think about likewise removing the penalty for blowgun users and shields? 10:12 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 10:16 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has quit ["Changing server"] 10:16 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21 <+kilobyte> What would you think about storing percentage of damage done by you on monsters? That would remove summon sniping abuse, and conversely, protect people from pets stealing kills. 10:22 <+kilobyte> If you do 4 damage, pets do 3 and a trap 3, you'd get 55% exp. 10:24 < AceTetra> what's summon sniping? is it when i use up my exp pool by slapping butterflies? 10:26 <+kilobyte> it's letting your pets do all the work, and when the monster is almost dead, you jump out and try to get the death blow 10:26 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 10:27 <+greensnark> due: Did you see minced's fight with Aizul? 10:28 <+greensnark> Shark stole the kill though :P 10:28 <+kilobyte> !lm minced uniq=Aizul 10:28 < Henzell> 1. [2010-01-03] minced the Black Belt (L18 DGTm) killed Aizul on turn 61584. (D:16) 10:29 <+kilobyte> four days ago, I guess you mean a more recent one, right? 10:29 <+greensnark> !lg minced killer=shark 10:29 < Henzell> 1. minced the Martial Artist (L14 SETm), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, slain by a shark on Shoal:1 on 2010-01-07, with 52377 points after 28477 turns and 2:01:56. 10:29 <+greensnark> He didn't manage to kill Aizul :P 10:30 <+greensnark> !tv minced killer=shark 10:30 < Henzell> 1. minced, XL14 SETm, T:28477 requested for FooTV. 10:31 <+greensnark> @??Aizul 10:31 < Gretell> Aizul (N) | Speed: 15 | HD: 14 | Health: 142 | AC/EV: 8/18 | Damage: 25 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(112), poison | Chunks: mutagenic | XP: 2427 | Sp: b.venom, blink other, sleep, poison arrow, minor healing. 10:32 <+kilobyte> ah, I understood the shark killed Aizul not minced :p 10:32 < Twinge> due: I think every time I've encountered Pikel, there has been another unique on the level, actually. could just be coincidence I suppose. I'll mention if this continues. 10:33 <+kilobyte> Twinge: just a coincidence, he's alone (save for his slaves) most of the time 10:34 <+due> I think it's a coincidence. 10:34 <+due> !lg * minced killer=shark -tv 10:34 < Henzell> Malformed argument: minced 10:34 * due tunes in. 10:34 <+due> !lg minced killer=shark -tv 10:34 < Henzell> 1. minced, XL14 SETm, T:28477 requested for FooTV. 10:35 <+due> Interesting 10:35 <+due> Yaktaurs need to go. 10:35 <+due> Aw. 10:36 <+kilobyte> he had almost full hp, then a single venom bolt got him to near death 10:37 <+due> Venom bolt or poison arrow? 10:38 < Twinge> It definitely hasn't seemed like 2 uniques on a single level was on the rare side, at any rate. 10:38 <+due> It won't be. 10:38 <+due> If anything, multiple uniques per level is probably more likely. 10:41 < Twinge> Oh, just more than 2 is really really rare? :P 10:41 <+due> Yeah. 10:42 <+due> Well, the code stpos placing unique if it fails to place one to start with. 10:42 <+due> So failing once at the start = no uniques per level. 10:42 < Twinge> Ah. 10:42 <+due> Not failing = 1 unique, then try again; if it doesn't fail again, you'll get two. 10:42 <+due> Three or more is moreunlikely. 10:54 < Napkin> greensnark? 10:55 <+due> Oh snark which is green, grace us with your greeny presence! 10:55 < Napkin> let's have some fun creating snake5? :) 10:55 <+due> !log 10:55 < Henzell> 1220. bookofjude, XL9 HaHu, T:9233: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/bookofjude/morgue-bookofjude-20100107-094940.txt 10:59 <+due> greensnark: Problem with Mara's clones but not Mara being susceptible to mislead is that then you know wihch one Mara is. 11:00 <+due> So it would have to be Mara as well. 11:00 < Twinge> ...okay, I just got *five* uniques on the same level ;O 11:01 <+due> Dowan and Duvessa? 11:01 < Twinge> No. 11:01 <+due> Hm. 11:01 <+due> List 'em? 11:01 <+due> Also, according to dpeg, this is desirable. 11:01 < Twinge> Edmund, Prince Ribbit, Pikel+Slaves, Menkaure, and Ijyb. D:4. 11:02 < Twinge> Why is it desireable? Seems to make them less interesting and unique when you'r practically tripping over them 11:02 <+due> Nice :) 11:02 <+due> It should be quite uncommon. 11:02 <+due> It's only an issue when it's occurring every other game,, which I'm assuming it's not? 11:04 < Twinge> Well, that was 2 in a row; I'll run a few more and see I guess 11:09 < Twinge> Erica, Harold, Norbert on D:10 of same game 11:13 <+due> What were you running? 11:19 <+due> I think I'll need to rewrite trap ammo handling. 11:22 < Twinge> Most recent trunk build 11:22 <+due> Ah. 11:23 < Twinge> Is a single stack of 500 gold supposed to be possible, especially at low-ish levels? (Baily off D10) 11:25 < AceTetra> how do you know the amount? ^F 'gold'? 11:29 < Twinge> press x to scroll to it, and 'v'iew 11:29 <+due> Yes. 11:29 <+due> 500 gold in a bailey? 11:30 <+due> Why does shoot_ammo not use bolt structure? 11:30 < Twinge> I've never seen a baily previously, just don't recall ever seeing a stack of gold that huge, even in like D:27 or whatever 11:31 <+due> Is it in a bailey, thoough? 11:32 < Twinge> Yes, as I said, off D10 11:32 <+due> any good_item can give you large stacks of money. 11:32 < Twinge> Ah. 11:32 < Twinge> Also, there's an Elvy vault here just kind of sitting here plainly by itself; I don't think I remember seeing an altar that doesn't look like it's part of a special vault or anything, hehe. 11:34 <+due> Yeah, they exist. 11:35 <+due> They're more common now with overflows. 11:35 < Twinge> K. 11:42 < Twinge> Okay, no 3+ uniques that game, hehe. (Though note that I'm not even going through the whole dungeon or anything - only 1-10, 15, 20, 27) 11:42 < Twinge> Hmm, a D:4 with a total of 6 monsters, that's odd :O 11:46 < Twinge> Ooook then, we have a new record 11:47 < Twinge> Wayne, Duane, Frederick, Xtahua, Boris, Aizul. All on D:20. 11:49 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@ip102.148.adsl.wplus.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev 11:49 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba_] by ChanServ 11:58 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:58 < Twinge> ...And again the next game, Erica, norbert, Gastronook - D10 11:59 <+greensnark> Multiple uniques on one level is fine 11:59 <+greensnark> Makes the level that much more tactically interesting 11:59 < Napkin> ok, definitely it had wizard flag 11:59 < Napkin> my death was not announced 11:59 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rd6697da62b9c /crawl-ref/ (7 files in 3 dirs): New minimap colour option for peaceful monsters, by default same as friendly. 12:00 <+greensnark> Napkin: Yeah, we know that already :P 12:00 <+greensnark> Napkin: No logfile record even 12:00 < Napkin> hooray for centauers with wand of lightning and ogre mage slowing you 12:01 < Napkin> enough of playing for a while 12:01 <+due> Napkin: heh, I felt the same way. 12:02 <+greensnark> @whereis 12:02 < Gretell> greensnark the Infuser (L10 OgEn), a worshipper of Sif Muna, saved on Lair:1 on 2010-01-05 after 11968 turns. 12:02 <+due> Is there wizard mode on CDO? 12:02 <+greensnark> Only for Napking :P 12:02 <+due> Aw 12:02 -!- Napkin [i=chojin@unaffiliated/napkin] has left ##crawl-dev ["leaving"] 12:02 <+greensnark> Oh, is he sulking? :) 12:03 <+due> Don't know 12:03 <+greensnark> His game was mysteriously marked as wizmoded 12:03 <+due> Ah 12:03 <+due> Odd 12:04 <+due> greensnark: Why don't traps use the bolt structure? They instead use custom damage calculations. 12:05 <+due> Can beam.agent be null, I wonder 12:05 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@85-131-31-249.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05 <+greensnark> I don't know 12:05 <+greensnark> The damage calc would have to be custom anyway 12:05 < Twinge> due: So yeah, in my insufficiently small sample set, it IS happening every other game - 4 out of 7 had 3/4/5/6 uniques on a single level (again, checking only half the levels even) 12:05 <+due> Twinge: Hm. 12:06 <+due> I still think it's acceptablee; we'll see what dpeg says. 12:06 <+greensnark> Did dpeg not want clusters of uniques? 12:06 <+due> We might need to change the chances to 40% instead of 50%. 12:06 * greensnark <3 unique clusters 12:06 <+due> greensnark: Rarerly. 12:06 < Twinge> greensnark: It seems odd to me. They seem a lot less unique when you're practically tripping over them 12:06 <+greensnark> Still on netbook keyboard? :) 12:07 <+due> Yes 12:07 <+greensnark> Twinge: I like more uniques in my games 12:07 <+due> Well back on it now, re: keyboard. 12:09 <+greensnark> Hm, the crawl process I started the 50k levelgen test on locked up trying to generate an item 12:09 < Twinge> greensnark: If you hit too many, than even the semi-unique 'normal' threats will be looking pretty mundane. I'd just want to avoid it being oversaturated. 12:09 <+due> Twinge: We've had difficulty balancing it recently. 12:10 <+greensnark> Twinge: I'm not seeing the problem 12:10 <+due> Either there are no uniques, or there are too many. 12:10 < Twinge> Nod. 12:10 <+greensnark> If I ran into 5 uniques every level, yeah 12:10 <+greensnark> But 5 uniques on one level? Fine by me 12:10 <+greensnark> Keep them coming 12:10 <+greensnark> This is obviously subjective 12:10 < Twinge> Yes. 12:10 <+greensnark> Right now I don't get enough uniques for my tastes :P 12:11 <+due> I misread that as testes. WTF moment. 12:11 < Twinge> I don't inherently mind it myself, it just seems off and potentially a negative for the game. 12:11 < Twinge> Hah 12:12 <+greensnark> It would be pretty easy to write a Lua test to generate lots of dungeons and count uniques per level and stuff 12:12 < AceTetra> i dunno about that, erolcha seems intent on kicking me in the balls 12:13 <+due> greensnark: I tried to. There were a lot of segfaults. 12:13 < Twinge> Probably. It would've taken me a lot longer to figure out how to do that then to get some baseline data for my needs, though. (I'm looking at exp gains now versus what they'd be after tweaks) 12:13 <+greensnark> due: Should report any segfaults you get :P 12:13 <+greensnark> -mapstat runs ok for me now 12:14 < Twinge> Speaking of which - recommended very basic compiler to compile a copy of trunk + my exp tweaks so I can test it locally? 12:14 <+greensnark> Windows? 12:14 < Twinge> Yes. XP. 12:14 <+due> // [dshaligram] The defined base damage applies only when used 12:14 <+due> // for launchers. Hand-thrown stones and darts do only half 12:14 <+due> // base damage. Yet another evil 4.0ism. 12:14 <+due> Twinge: msysgut 12:14 <+due> ...msysgit. 12:15 < syllogism> read install.txt ... 12:15 < Henzell> syllogism: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 12:15 <+due> greensnark: I'm thinking of nuking that for darts, now that they can't be used in launchers. What sort of impact did it have? 12:16 <+greensnark> Well, that was intended to keep damage numbers in line with 4.0 12:16 <+greensnark> Dart full damage is quite strong, but so is most of the new missile stuff :P 12:16 <+due> Hm, true. 12:16 <+due> I'll leave it, I think. 12:16 <+greensnark> You could just remove the hack and tune the actual damage 12:17 <+greensnark> So it's less of a wtf for someone reading the code 12:17 < Twinge> due: Seperate from Git itself I assume? 12:17 <+greensnark> Although stones can also be launched, so there, I dunno 12:18 <+due> greensnark: that bit of code is only for player thrown darts, as well. 12:18 <+due> Someone was commenting that dart damage output is pretty varied. 12:19 <+greensnark> Well, monster missile damage is very varied 12:19 <+greensnark> And that confuses players 12:21 <+due> And coders. 12:21 <+greensnark> The vault that places the item that hangs Crawl is "protected_by_tso_3" 12:22 <+greensnark> Presumably acquire:the_shining_one any 12:22 <+due> What? 12:22 <+due> That wouldn't even work, would it? 12:22 <+greensnark> I wonder if they were hoping for a blessed blade? 12:23 <+due> Would be easier to just specify. 12:23 <+greensnark> Still, it should not hang the item gen code 12:23 <+greensnark> That is just naughty of the item gen code 12:24 <+due> Which you wrote, no? ;) 12:24 <+due> So, I'm thinking temporarily hasting Dowan, replacing throw flame and throw frost with fireball, and removing haste other would be a nice post-death buff. 12:25 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rcf714fb898d9 /crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Don't colour bad food (poisoned, mutagenic, ...) as "preferred". 12:26 < CIA-81> due * r00005320c53f /crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Change "wrath" needles to "frenzy". 12:26 < CIA-81> due * r57495e5eb5b6 /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Unlink Slings and Throwing. (Vandal) 12:26 < CIA-81> due * rb5014a90345d /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Frenzy needles count as hasty for Cheibriados purposes. 12:27 <+due> Wait, what? jpeg reordered map_feature enum? 12:28 <+due> Shouldn't that require an increase in MAJOR_VERSION? 12:28 <+greensnark> due: Yeah, I'm the guilty party here, but it would have been in excellent taste to pretend you didn't know that :P 12:28 <+greensnark> What, she did? 12:28 <+due> Commit d6697da, but maybe I misundrstood. 12:29 <+due> @??dowan 12:29 < Gretell> Dowan (e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 25 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(24) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 46 | Sp: throw frost, corona, blink, throw flame, haste other, minor healing. 12:30 <+greensnark> due: I think that only affects map drawing 12:31 <+greensnark> So you might have a slightly confused level map, but it will fix itself when you go look at that square 12:31 <+due> Ah, okay. 12:31 <+due> I still don't understand what breaks and what dodesn't break save compat. 12:32 <+greensnark> Rearranging the actual dungeon features like DNGN_FLOOR and friends would shatter save compat 12:32 <+due> Hm, what's the best way to only haste Dowan when he comes into LOS? I did MF_GOING_BERSERK for duvessa. 12:32 <+greensnark> Depends on where it's used 12:32 <+greensnark> The elf twins should get their own source file soon :) 12:32 <+due> I'm not sure MF_GOING_HASTE is a) appropriate or b) would fit in the enum. 12:32 <+due> Maybe a monster props? 12:33 <+due> Yes, that would be nice, actually. 12:33 <+greensnark> Yeah, a monster prop sounds better for one-off effects 12:33 <+due> Their code is all over the place at the minute. 12:33 <+due> I think going berserk is good, though. 12:33 <+due> A nice wrath effect for Trog would be to mark all monsters on the level as going berserk.. 12:33 <+greensnark> I thought she only went berserk when you kill Dowan? 12:33 <+due> Yeah. 12:33 <+due> You kill dowan, duvessa.flags |= MF_GOING_BERSERK. 12:34 <+due> She flies into a fit of rage the next time you see her. 12:34 <+greensnark> We should add a new monster AI that we can selectively assign to monsters with the suitable I_foo constant 12:34 <+due> Yeah, Ineed to go about working on their path finding. 12:35 <+due> I want Pikel + slaves and Dowan + Duvessa to stick together. 12:35 <+greensnark> So that monsters like Mara don't become pushovers just because the RNG decides to scrw them over and not let them cast spells before a hasted player gets in their face :P 12:35 * due llaughs. 12:36 -!- by [n=vollmert@a12.imp.fu-berlin.de] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:36 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ 12:36 <+due> Yeah. 12:36 <+by> hi 12:36 <+due> hiii 12:41 <+greensnark> It's by! 12:41 <+greensnark> In a tutu! 12:45 <+due> Oh man. 12:45 <+due> Haste Dowan with fireball and extra blink is hilariously awesome. 12:47 <+by> 8 spells in pook of power? 12:48 <+due> by: IMB got moved in. 12:48 <+by> maybe one of the poison conjurations should be dropped? 12:49 <+by> it has most overlap with bolt of iron, really 12:49 <+due> ??bok of power 12:49 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled bok_of_power in my learndb. 12:49 <+due> ??book of power 12:49 < Henzell> book of power[1/1]: Contains Animate Dead, Venom Bolt, Bolt of Iron, Invisibility, Mass Confusion and Poisonous Cloud. 12:50 <+due> Hm. Invisbilit could go. 12:50 <+due> It's not exactly powerful. 12:50 <+by> teleport other is also in my copy 12:50 < CIA-81> greensnark * r437d51508324 /crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc: Fix rare hang attempting to generate item with spec "acquire:the_shining_one any". 12:50 <+due> Oh, really? Odd. 12:50 <+by> invisibility is powerful in the right circumstances... 12:51 <+due> But that's not very often. 12:52 <+by> could swap it with haste (wizardry) 12:52 < Twinge> Er. MSysGit seems to be the same as the Git I already had. And I don't see any way to compile with them :P The Git manual implies what I previously thought - that Git was just for managing and tracking the commits and patches, not for compiling. Am I just missing something simple or? 12:53 <+by> also, why did the book of wizardry get selective amnesia? 12:53 <+greensnark> Twinge: I think there's an msysgit installer that will also install the MinGW compiler toolchain in the msysgit tree 12:53 <+greensnark> syllogism: You've done that right? 12:53 <+due> Twinge: MSysGit bash prompt comes with a build environment. 12:54 <+greensnark> Twinge: Yeah, try running msysgit bash prompt in the source dir, type 'make' and see if anything interesting happens :) 12:54 <+due> Okay, monsters will fireball will still fireball themselves. 12:54 <+due> Can someone fix this? I don't evne know where to begin to look. 12:54 <+greensnark> Beam tracer 12:55 < syllogism> all you need is the installer that's mentioned in install.txt 12:55 <+due> greensnark: Thanks. 12:55 <+greensnark> Oh yeah, install.txt covers it 12:55 <+by> hmm, kilobyte's "remove divinations" commit also removed the book of practical magic 12:55 <+greensnark> To get msysgit, be sure to download the 'netinstall' from here: 12:55 <+greensnark> http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/downloads/list 12:56 <+greensnark> From install.txt 12:56 <+due> ??book of practical magic 12:56 < Henzell> book of practical magic[1/1]: Spells: projected noise, selective amnesia, detect curse, dig, remove curse. 12:56 <+due> Interesting. 12:56 <+due> It's not a very practical book, either. :) 12:57 <+greensnark> Well, it does have SA :P 12:57 <+greensnark> dig is very nice if you can cast it 12:57 <+greensnark> The rest are pretty meh, of course :P 12:57 < syllogism> ??book of wizardry 12:57 < Henzell> book of wizardry[1/1]: Spells: detect creatures, summon elemental, teleport self, fireball, identify, haste. 12:58 <+by> how about: wizardry gets "teleport other" from power, practical magic is restored and gets "teleport self" from wizardry? 12:58 < syllogism> Is wizardry more common, it certainly seems to be and makes Sif's SA pretty pointless 12:59 <+by> yes, wizardry is quite common I believe 12:59 <+due> I have no idea how to fix the tracer issue. 12:59 <+due> Too late, too tired. Night folks. 13:00 <+by> night, due 13:00 <+greensnark> syllogism: Did you see the shark kill? :P 13:00 < syllogism> yep 13:00 * due pushes the Dowan tweaks, first. 13:00 < syllogism> not exactly the kind of kill I was hoping for though :P 13:00 < CIA-81> due * r55a78fd8ac0e /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/database/monspeak.txt mon-stuff.cc view.cc): Unnerf Dowan. 13:01 <+greensnark> Well, they can't exactly get any other kind of kill :P 13:01 < Mu_> do you think crawl should warn the player before they sacrifice the horn of geryon to nemelx? it warns for runes/the orb. i admit i bring this up because i am stupid and i accidentally did it in my last game. 13:01 <+due> Mu_: Yes. 13:01 <+kilobyte> or perhaps even straight disallow that... 13:01 < Twinge> greensnark: Er, okay, I had gotten the full version rather than the net installer. 13:02 <+due> kilobyte: Why? 13:02 <+due> We don't disallow rules or the orb. 13:02 <+greensnark> Twinge: I think the net installer allows you to request that the MinW compiler be installed 13:02 <+due> Mu_: Doing it right now. 13:02 < Mu_> oki 13:02 <+greensnark> And the full version just installs git without the compiler 13:02 <+greensnark> I'm not really sure though 13:02 <+greensnark> I still build with a standalone MinGW install, although this requires kicking the makefiles in several places 13:03 <+kilobyte> due: I'm thinking mostly about the orb. 13:03 < Twinge> Hum. Well neither Git nor full MSysGit has an install.txt, dunno about the net install. When I tried make using MSys, it said the Makefile was missing 13:03 < syllogism> crawl has install.txt :P 13:04 < Twinge> Oh, hah 13:04 <+due> kilobyte: I think allowing it is okay. 13:04 <+due> Mu_: Done 13:04 <+greensnark> It's not clear what the point of sacrificing the orb is, though! 13:04 < CIA-81> due * rdfe4d971e429 /crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Prompt before offering the Horn of Geryon (Mu). 13:05 <+greensnark> I say just disallow it 13:05 <+due> greensnark: You should get a fake orb in return that you can use to ascend. 13:05 < Mu_> you are a diamond 13:05 <+due> Me shiny? :D 13:05 <+greensnark> Players who want to make stylish statements can just ^Qyes on the upstairs with orb 13:05 <+due> Disallow throwing the orb into Lava as well? 13:05 <+greensnark> Previously, of course, they could passwall into deep rock, but someone fixed that :P 13:05 <+due> Not that that makes a difference now. 13:06 <+due> Afoermentioned sleep. 13:07 < syllogism> twinge: I don't know what you intend to do, but git extensions is a pretty nice gui http://code.google.com/p/gitextensions/ 13:08 <+greensnark> Does that also bundle msysgit or do you need to intall it separately 13:08 < syllogism> pretty sure you need to install it separately, but I haven't read the fine print :P 13:09 < syllogism> it asks you path to git.exe and stuff so I guess it's not a bundle :P 13:11 < Twinge> syllogism: I'm just trying to build a copy of Craw with one modified file so I can test my experience tweaks locally ;/ 13:11 < syllogism> oh there's a bundle too 13:13 < Twinge> So I'm not trying to get too fancy and I imagine I don't need the extensions, as of yet anyway 13:25 < syllogism> it's useful even if you just want to browse commits 13:26 -!- SiberOut [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:28 < Twinge> Sigh. net version still says makefile is missing. 13:28 <+Keskitalo> !tell due The Dowan buff sounds cool! 13:28 < Henzell> Keskitalo: OK, I'll let due know. 13:28 <+greensnark> Are you in the right directory 13:28 <+greensnark> If it says it's missing, you're probably trying to build in the wrong place 13:28 < Twinge> \crawl-ref\source\ 13:28 <+greensnark> And what's the exact error message? 13:28 < syllogism> did you just type "make install" ? 13:28 <+greensnark> Include the terminal prompt as well 13:29 < Twinge> It's going into a sub directory and then not finding it, -- 13:29 <+greensnark> Dude 13:29 <+greensnark> Include error messages, or we're just talking past each other 13:29 <+greensnark> It sounds like you need to do a git submodule update --init in the top dir 13:29 < Twinge> The -- was indicating I'm typing it out :P 13:29 <+Keskitalo> And afternoons! 13:30 <+greensnark> Copy-paste! 13:30 <+greensnark> Yo Keskitalo 13:30 < syllogism> if it's cmd.exe he can't :P 13:30 < Twinge> syllogism: Exactly :/ 13:30 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Out of curiosity - why does the Snake end test generate all the levels before it? 13:30 < syllogism> well he can 13:31 < Twinge> make[1]: Entering directory '/source/conturb' ******** The 'prce' folder exists, but the makefile is missing! Did 'git submodule update' work properly? ******* make[1]: *** [pcre] Error 1 make[1]: Leaving directory make: *** [.contrib-libs] Error 2 13:31 < syllogism> did it work?!? :P 13:31 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: I was wondering if something in preceding level gen was screwing up the Snake gen 13:31 <+greensnark> You can copy-paste from cmd.exe 13:31 <+greensnark> Right click, go to properties, enable quick edit mode 13:31 <+greensnark> Then you can just drag to select and hit enter to copy iirc 13:32 < Twinge> Oh, right, that roundabout way, I remember that. 13:32 <+greensnark> Once you enable quick edit mode it's not roundabout 13:32 <+greensnark> The default method of right clicking and selecting Mark is ridiculous 13:33 <+greensnark> And that error message says you should run "git submodule update --init" in the top crawl-ref dir 13:35 < Twinge> Oh, right, forgot to try that again in the net version. 13:38 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-114-135-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:38 < syllogism> acquirement stats are still broken :( 13:45 < Twinge> Takes 500 years to compile but appears to be working 13:52 <+greensnark> syllogism: What's broken? 13:52 < syllogism> &^I 13:53 < Twinge> (My background is mostly in Visual Basic, so I'm using to trying everything out in real time :P) 13:53 <+greensnark> You can get that kind of turnaround with Lua :) 13:54 < Twinge> Wow it's still going. Now I feel sad that this is just a straight-up trunk build; I didn't put in my changes yet :P 13:54 <+sorear> Twinge: it's slightly faster the second time 13:55 <+greensnark> If you're changing only mon-data.h the recompile should be quite fast 13:55 <+greensnark> Well, relatively fast 13:55 <+greensnark> There's still the linker embrace of doom 13:55 < Twinge> Fair enough. Will I simply run a 'make' again, or do I need to do anything different? 13:55 <+greensnark> Just make 13:56 < cbus> time to make 13:56 < cbus> (some wizards) 13:56 <+greensnark> Actually, for the initial compile, make debug would have sped things up a bit 13:56 <+greensnark> And given you a debug build 13:56 <+greensnark> Which is useful when you're hacking Crawl 13:56 <+greensnark> Maybe you should stop the build now and run make debug instead 13:57 < Twinge> Hmm. Eh, oh well. I can do it later if I need debug options; wizmode covers stuff pretty well. I'm going to bed right now anyway so no big deal that it's taking forever 13:58 <+greensnark> Need to say make wizard for wizmode, I think 13:58 <+greensnark> The default is a build without wizmode 13:58 < Twinge> :O 13:59 < Twinge> Sigh :P Yep, no wiz mode (it just finished) 14:00 < Twinge> So... "make debug wizard", or? 14:00 <+greensnark> make debug 14:00 <+greensnark> debug-mode is wizmode on steroids 14:00 <+greensnark> You can't really play games in debug mode though 14:00 <+greensnark> Too spammy 14:01 < Twinge> Nod. Alright, going to bed :P Tomorrow I can start seeing how my exp tweaks look in game a bit probably... 14:02 < Twinge> Then if no one else has any comments we oculd probably go ahead and commit it. 14:20 < Vandal|PC> How come Player Naga have torsos and Monster Naga do not? 14:21 < Vandal|PC> Are the Monster tiles going to be redone with torsos and such so they can hold weapons? 14:21 < syllogism> huh? 14:21 < Vandal|PC> aizul.png 14:21 < Vandal|PC> snake with a human head 14:21 < syllogism> aizul is a serpent 14:21 < eith> aizul isnt a naga, hes a serpent 14:22 < Vandal|PC> Oh, there is a difference? O_o 14:22 < Vandal|PC> I guess this is why the monsters need descriptions 14:22 < syllogism> @?? guardian serpent 14:22 < Gretell> guardian serpent (N) | Speed: 15 | HD: 8 | Health: 24-64 | AC/EV: 6/14 | Damage: 26 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(64), poison | Chunks: mutagenic | XP: 583 | Sp: teleport other, minor healing, b.venom, slow. 14:23 < cbus> is ice monster form the new thing with Tm? 14:23 <+greensnark> What 14:23 < eith> its new? :S 14:23 < cbus> eith, well I see someone actually using it so I assumed it got buffed 14:23 < cbus> :D 14:23 <+greensnark> This is plainly an imposter pretending to be cbus 14:23 < eith> haha 14:24 < eith> wasnt buffed, but it rocks, lots of slaying 14:24 < cbus> or did blade hands get nerfed to "you have butter knives extended from your hands" 14:24 <+greensnark> cbus: Who are you and what have you done with cbus 14:24 < cbus> greensnark, whaaat? :D 14:25 < syllogism> ice form hits pretty hard too 14:25 < cbus> hmm, I think I've used it vs hydras or something once in the past 14:25 < cbus> might've been statue form though 14:28 < Vandal|PC> @??aizul 14:28 < Gretell> Aizul (N) | Speed: 15 | HD: 14 | Health: 142 | AC/EV: 8/18 | Damage: 25 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(112), poison | Chunks: mutagenic | XP: 2427 | Sp: b.venom, blink other, sleep, poison arrow, minor healing. 14:28 < Vandal|PC> Maybe their glyph should be changed from N to make the "not naga" thing more distinct 14:29 < eith> they used to be guardian naga's 14:29 < Vandal|PC> Changed to add more variety? 14:29 < eith> changed cause they clearly arent nagas =p 14:30 < Vandal|PC> You mean because the tile makes them look like they're not Nagas? 14:30 < eith> ... 14:30 <+greensnark> They were presumably changed because every other naga is slow and guardan naga were faast 14:30 < Vandal|PC> ah 14:30 < eith> the idea is they are highly trained young nagas, or something 14:30 < Vandal|PC> That doesn't make tons of sense re: Aizul 14:31 < cbus> @whereis pingpong 14:31 < Gretell> pingpong the Spry (L14 SpAs), a worshipper of Okawaru, saved on Snake:5 on 2010-01-05 after 33865 turns. 14:31 <+greensnark> cbus: When are you going to give us a Shoals splat? :P 14:31 * greensnark thrives on Shoals splats. 14:31 < cbus> never 14:31 <+greensnark> :/ 14:31 < cbus> I don't like shoals 14:31 < eith> Vandal|PC: go look it up on the mailing list then, im lazy =p 14:31 <+greensnark> Bad cubs 14:31 < cbus> to much hassle with running between islands 14:31 <+greensnark> You will eat your shoals and like it young man 14:31 < eith> theres a reasonable explaintion out there 14:31 < cbus> I suicide or quit my chars around 1 rune nowadays :D 14:32 <+greensnark> "nowadays"? :P 14:32 < cbus> and that rune is usually silver/serpentine 14:32 < cbus> all gahmes on pingpong 14:49 < syllogism> I could have sworn blade hands was nerfed to 9+str/4+dex/4 at some point, maybe that was just a proposal 14:50 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57 < cbus> syllogism, it isnt? 14:58 < syllogism> it's 12+... 14:58 < cbus> syllogism, mind pressing #? :) 14:58 < syllogism> huh? 14:58 < cbus> damn I meant the zipcode guy 14:58 < cbus> sorry 15:06 -!- Napkin [i=chojin@unaffiliated/napkin] has joined ##crawl-dev 15:09 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2058-gdfe4d97 (15.2) 15:12 < Vandal|PC> Was anyone against letting Kenku butcher with claws and beak? 15:12 < cbus> hmm 15:12 < Vandal|PC> talons, rather 15:14 < eith> talons are for gripping, beaks are for shredding 15:15 < Vandal|PC> bird o' prey 15:15 < eith> yea, they dont exactly butcher though 15:16 < eith> they grip it with the feet and pull off tiny bits 15:16 < Vandal|PC> yeah, because real birds are small 15:16 < Vandal|PC> kenku are huge and can easily rip a chunk out of something humanoid 15:16 < eith> well thats how giant pre-historic birds feed too =p 15:16 < eith> i could see them eating stuff, like vampires do, but not butchering 15:17 < Vandal|PC> you're silly 15:17 < Vandal|PC> Why would claws allow for finer "butchering" skill than talons and a beak 15:17 < Vandal|PC> They just shred things 15:17 < Vandal|PC> talons are just claws on feet 15:17 < eith> different shapes 15:17 < eith> they arent, they are hook shaped 15:17 < Vandal|PC> they are not shaped like a butcher's cleaver 15:17 < Vandal|PC> and reality has no bearing on Crawl :) 15:18 < eith> well you asked was anyone against it, theres all my reasons =p 15:18 < syllogism> you can even butcher with "sharp" fingernails :P 15:18 < eith> heh =p 15:18 < Vandal|PC> seriously? 15:18 < eith> well then it is ridiculous 15:18 < syllogism> claw 1 has that as a description 15:18 < Vandal|PC> wow 15:19 < eith> i thought they couldnt butcher though 15:19 < Vandal|PC> eith I would be more receptive of actual gameplay arguments 15:19 < eith> well theres clearly, none no reason for making anyone carry a knife even 15:19 < Vandal|PC> ? 15:19 < eith> i think theres even an fr about this 15:21 < Vandal|PC> Well I kind of understand that you need access to something sharp to tear some bits off a corpse 15:21 < Vandal|PC> bare handed without any natural sharp thingies would be immersion breaking 15:21 < eith> yea, but the code in fact specifically generates a sharp object for you anyways on the early levels 15:21 < syllogism> the fr suggests you would always have some kind of adventurer's knife 15:21 < syllogism> which isn't a weapon 15:21 < Vandal|PC> well dpeg wants to erase knives 15:22 < Vandal|PC> I could see that syl 15:22 < eith> that would go well with the FR 15:22 < Vandal|PC> he wants to kill knives and katanas XD 15:22 < Vandal|PC> probably half the maces as well 15:22 < eith> katanas :o honestly though, i think ive seen like 1 katana =p 15:22 < Vandal|PC> He thinks 12 is too many weapon types for one catagory, maces have 14 15:22 < Vandal|PC> I kind of agree 15:23 <+greensnark> ASSERT(mimic->inv[MSLOT_MISCELLANY] != NON_ITEM) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 163 failed. 15:23 <+greensnark> Do the mimic masters in here have a deal for mimics without items to mimic? :P 15:23 < Vandal|PC> knives and katanas being gone would leave 10 15:23 < Vandal|PC> those 10 could be tweaked 15:24 < Vandal|PC> either short sword or sabre could be removed 15:24 < Vandal|PC> I'm personally in favor of making Daggers the only tier 1 stabbing weapon 15:25 < Vandal|PC> I think it was sorear pointing out to me that there is no reason at all to bother with daggers, despite their bonus, if you have access to a sabre 15:25 < Vandal|PC> and he is pretty much right 15:25 < eith> this is true, you wont notice any difference 15:25 < eith> unless its liek level2 or something 15:25 < Vandal|PC> So either the dagger bonus is vestigal and should just be removed, or other weapons should not be tier 1 15:26 < Vandal|PC> vestigel? 15:26 < eith> i think the first one was right 15:26 < Vandal|PC> IRC needs a spellchecker 15:26 < eith> theres an extra i, vestigial 15:26 < Vandal|PC> ahh 15:26 < Vandal|PC> I knew it had an "el" sound somehow 15:27 < eith> this does just force you to carry a dagger though, and swap 15:27 < eith> your not really gaining anything 15:27 < Vandal|PC> that is true 15:27 < Vandal|PC> except you're possibly losing 1 turn of non-detection 15:27 < Vandal|PC> I was also thinking of proposing that all 1H swords be tier 1 15:27 < Vandal|PC> and get the dagger bonus 15:28 < Vandal|PC> 1.5 swords, maybe tier 1, but no dagger bonus 15:28 < eith> stabbing already verges on overpowered 15:28 < Vandal|PC> as you pointed out 15:29 < Vandal|PC> all the dagger bonus means is that you have to swap weapons 15:29 < Vandal|PC> so it won't be making stabbing itself more powerful by making weapon swapping less necessary 15:29 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r3746a0d9be46 /crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Fix 0000188: monster list bug with player ghost 15:29 < eith> tier1's are about the type of stab, not the weapon 15:30 < Vandal|PC> the dagger bonus itself could just be removed entirely and all 1-1.5 handed blades could be tier 1 15:30 < Vandal|PC> if tier 1 is too strong, it can be nerfed 15:30 < eith> you can do tier1 stabs with bananas if you want, but they all get different bonuses 15:30 < Vandal|PC> the weapon swapping is just annoying though 15:37 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43 <+kilobyte> http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/KiloByte/crash-KiloByte-20100107-144145.txt 15:44 <+kilobyte> a water-related spell, even though I was in Elf 15:46 <+greensnark> kilobyte: Interesting 15:46 < syllogism> napkin's "wizmode" morgue didn't get the wizmode flag? 15:47 <+greensnark> There are some silly bugs with the wizmode flag handling 15:47 <+greensnark> Milestones are supposed to be flagged as wiz milestones, but aren't 15:52 <+greensnark> kilobyte: Miscast effect? 15:52 <+greensnark> BEAM_WATER is in the wrong place, I forgot to move it when I moved ZAP_WATER :/ 15:52 <+greensnark> So BEAM_RANDOM can pick it and cause damage 15:54 <+kilobyte> not sure, I had an enslaved orc sorcerer who did a summon storm, so lots of different effects were flying around 15:54 <+greensnark> Ah 15:55 < cbus> flame vault on D:1 15:55 < cbus> damn 15:55 < cbus> @whereis pingpong 15:55 < Gretell> pingpong the Insei (L2 SETm) dead on D:1 on 2010-01-07 after 852 turns. 15:55 < cbus> "oops" 15:55 <+greensnark> Deliberately killing yourself doesn't count, you know 15:55 < cbus> greensnark, it wasn't deliberate 15:55 < cbus> there wasn't any flame on teh square I stepped into 15:55 < cbus> you know 15:55 <+greensnark> :P 15:56 < cbus> must be ab ug :D 15:56 <+greensnark> Admit it, you threw yourself into the flames :P 15:56 < cbus> no 15:56 < cbus> the square was clean 15:56 < cbus> when I went to it 15:56 < cbus> I thought the clear path without flame was meant to be walked 15:56 <+greensnark> !tv pingpong ktyp=cloud 15:56 < Henzell> 3. pingpong, XL2 SETm, T:852 requested for FooTV. 15:57 < cbus> see 15:57 < cbus> :D 15:58 <+greensnark> Wait, you're saying that wasn't deliberate? :P 15:58 < cbus> ofcourse! 15:58 <+greensnark> Good whisky you got there, eh? :P 15:58 < cbus> hell yeah 15:58 < cbus> but I haven't touched it! 16:00 <+greensnark> We have kilobyte in the shoals 16:00 <+greensnark> At XL 17 too 16:00 <+greensnark> Brave man there 16:00 < cbus> rofl 16:00 < cbus> pwnage 16:00 < cbus> first enemy 16:00 < cbus> goblin with a dagger of distortion 16:01 < cbus> I took a hit, 2 damage and tele 16:01 < cbus> :D 16:01 <+greensnark> Lucky :P 16:01 < cbus> whats up with kilobytes weird glyphs for water? 16:01 <+greensnark> Unicode is pretty nice, you Luddite 16:02 < cbus> how do you unquiver something? 16:02 <+greensnark> Drop it :P 16:02 < cbus> for some reason I'm not allowed to not quiver anything? 16:02 < cbus> I want the tiem 16:02 < cbus> I just don't want it quivered (and I don't have anything else to throw) 16:03 <+greensnark> Heh, kilobyte has funky clouds 16:03 < cbus> I don't want the distortion dagger quivered and I don't want it on the floor :D 16:03 < cbus> if you get my drift 16:04 < CIA-81> greensnark * rf608a02a6646 /crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc enum.h): Move BEAM_WATER out of the random range used by BEAM_RANDOM, since the game crashes if BEAM_RANDOM picks water (kilobyte). 16:04 <+by> cbus: there might be an inscription 16:04 < cbus> wtf 16:04 < cbus> dagger of distortion, short sword of draining 16:04 < cbus> what is the game trying to do? :) 16:05 <+by> can hardly cut down toadstools with my cursed knife :) 16:05 < cbus> No matching items. when searching for inscription in feature or item 16:07 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:14 <+kilobyte> no chance to enslave, I guess... 16:16 <+greensnark> Submerged monsters really need to know when to gtfo :P 16:17 < syllogism> "i'll just hide here" *splat* 16:17 < syllogism> that's so sad :P 16:18 < syllogism> oh it was a kraken :P 16:18 <+greensnark> Why do you think he was flailing away at it for a decade :P 16:18 < syllogism> well he had a whip :P 16:18 <+greensnark> Usually doesn't take more than a year even with a whip :P 16:19 < syllogism> you'd think it's not that effective underwater 16:19 <+by> maybe it shouldn't be possible to hit submerged monsters? 16:19 <+greensnark> Yeah, that'd work too 16:19 <+greensnark> It's pretty non-obvious that you can 16:19 <+greensnark> And tedious 16:19 <+kilobyte> you can do that with 1: all polearms, 2: weapons of reaching, 3: some spells 16:19 -!- ais523 [n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:19 <+greensnark> Yeah, should remove all of them :) 16:20 <+greensnark> But submerging critters should also be fixed to be less obnoxious 16:20 < syllogism> that would just be even more annoying unless you change submerge at the same time 16:20 <+greensnark> They're a real time and fun killer at the moment 16:20 <+by> "the giant goldfish goes upstream to lay some eggs", half xp? 16:21 <+greensnark> That would work too 16:21 <+greensnark> But they should only submerge when in dire straits then :P 16:22 <+by> they should only submerged if poisoned or sticky flamed 16:22 <+greensnark> Or within 5% of maxhp 16:23 * greensnark ponders beefing up impalers. 16:23 < ais523> "pretty much the only thing they can do is commit suicide to deny us the experience" 16:24 < ais523> monsters really shouldn't do that... 16:29 < CIA-81> greensnark * rd67ff3694bcd /crawl-ref/source/hiscores.cc: Set wizmode flag correctly in milestones even for non-wizard builds. 16:34 <+greensnark> Hmmmm, interesting 16:34 <+greensnark> Eifeltrampel's save thinks the game generated snake_hunt on Snake:5 16:38 <+greensnark> Bwahahahahahaha 16:38 <+greensnark> I have a repro for the bug! 16:38 <+greensnark> <3 <3 <3 16:38 < syllogism> where's the br 16:38 <+by> yay 16:39 <+greensnark> syllogism: No rune or rune vault on Snake:5 16:39 < syllogism> oh was it that old bug 16:40 <+greensnark> Yeah, looks like the validate {{ }} block is lousing things up 16:40 <+greensnark> I get an easy repro if I increase the vault weight and make the validate block return false always 16:40 <+greensnark> Whereas it's supposed to abort level gen in such cases 16:41 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:41 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ 16:41 <@dpeg> Cheers 16:41 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:41 <@dpeg> !messages 16:41 < Henzell> (1/1) due said (6h 29m ago): What do you think about likewise removing the penalty for blowgun users and shields? 16:42 <@dpeg> !tell due As I've learned only recently, blowguns are large and fragile. Also, given the recent blowgun boosts, I don't think it's necessary. 16:42 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 16:42 < cbus> hey lobster man 16:42 <@dpeg> !seen Napkin 16:42 < Henzell> I last saw Napkin at Thu Jan 7 15:27:07 2010 UTC (15m 9s ago) saying a hasting mummy... lol on ##crawl. 16:42 <@dpeg> lobster is dead 16:42 < cbus> ate it? 16:42 <@dpeg> Napkin! 16:42 <@dpeg> cbus: lobster killed irssi 16:44 < cbus> poor lobster 16:53 < Napkin> ok, hill orc fighter with spear/trident is a century weaker than mountain dwarf fighter with axe 16:54 < Napkin> sorry 16:54 <+greensnark> Do we know when the last time someone got snake_hunt was? 16:54 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@ip102.148.adsl.wplus.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:54 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba] by ChanServ 16:55 <+by> !vault snake_hunt 16:55 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:55 < Henzell> Lines pasted to http://pastebin.com/m1b5bfbd9 16:55 <+greensnark> Er, I mean do we know when the last time someone missed the rune on Snake:5 was 16:56 <+by> could check for games that reached Snake:5, didn't end there, and don't have a serpentine rune milestone 16:57 <+greensnark> The bug triggers only if snake_hunt seals off the rune from the stairs, and this happens 25 times in a row 16:59 <+greensnark> I owe zelgadis a drink for tracking vaults used per dungeon level and adding it to chardump for wizards 17:00 < CIA-81> greensnark * r14d28e262871 /crawl-ref/source/maps.cc: Fix bug in handling .des map validation failures (Eifeltrampel). 17:02 <+greensnark> !tell Eifel Found and fixed the Snake:5 missing rune bug, thanks! 17:02 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let Eifel know. 17:04 < Eifel> greensnark: Good job! 17:04 < Henzell> Eifel: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:04 < Eifel> !messages 17:04 < Henzell> (1/1) greensnark said (1m 48s ago): Found and fixed the Snake:5 missing rune bug, thanks! 17:07 <+greensnark> We have rob in the Shoals! 17:07 <+greensnark> XL 12 too :P 17:07 <+greensnark> Hey, you're not supposed to leave 17:07 <+greensnark> Oh, I was spectating the wrong game :P 17:07 <+by> I heard you looking for a shoals splat 17:08 <+greensnark> Shoals splats are always welcome 17:08 < syllogism> aquamancers can comfortably oneshot you :P 17:09 < cbus> eehr text on top 17:09 < cbus> that feels "weird" 17:09 <+greensnark> And that dagger isn't doing him any favours 17:09 <+greensnark> :/ 17:09 <+by> there you go, got to run 17:10 < syllogism> Do not attempt to adjust the picture 17:10 <+greensnark> You should have come back a little later to make it last longer :P 17:10 < syllogism> oh 17:10 < cbus> syllogism, I tried to stirp the messages away but DGL kicked me off :D 17:11 <@dpeg> greensnark: do I need to repair snake_hunt? 17:11 < syllogism> hehe zicher has 46 monsters in LOS 17:11 < syllogism> in a tiny lair room 17:12 <+greensnark> dpeg: No, the map is fine 17:12 <+greensnark> The bug was in C++ 17:14 <@dpeg> ah 17:14 <@dpeg> I mistakenly closed the bug on SF =) 17:14 <+greensnark> Pretty hard to trigger 17:14 <@dpeg> (jpeg asked me and I replied that we had no missing runes complaints for some time) 17:15 <+greensnark> I generated some 50k Snake:5 levels without managing to trigger the bug 17:16 < syllogism> only 6875 games have reached snake 5 17:16 <+greensnark> dpeg: How about removing stat death :) 17:17 <+greensnark> And instead giving penalties depending on the stat that just went to 0 17:17 <+doy> why? 17:18 <@dpeg> greensnark: I am all for removing stat death. Do you have some good ideas for penalties. 17:18 <@dpeg> In fact, even a slowed down death would be good 17:18 <+greensnark> doy: It's yet another hp-like thing to track, but it's very counterintuitive to new players 17:18 < ais523> inability to move with dex=0, inability to do anything but drop items with str=0 17:18 <+doy> killing a character is better than permanently crippling them 17:18 <+greensnark> Unspoiled players just go into Hell and splat 17:18 < ais523> (until you have no items) 17:19 <+greensnark> doy: Not permanent crippling 17:19 < ais523> the crippling isn't permanent because stats recover eventurally 17:19 <+greensnark> Penalties that make it very helpful to get that restore abilities potion into ger :P 17:19 < ais523> *eventually 17:19 <+greensnark> No movement is practically killing 17:19 <+greensnark> I suggested very low to-hit on melee and spells for dex=0 17:19 <+greensnark> Inability to use spells, wands, possibly other effects for int=0 17:20 <@dpeg> doy: I think it should work like Starving. If you keep going for too long, you will die. Just not instantly. 17:20 <+greensnark> And close-to-zero carrying capacity for str=0 17:20 < syllogism> the penalties would have to be pretty severe, they kind of all have to paralyze you once you hit 0, among other penalties 17:20 <+doy> dpeg: that could work 17:20 <+doy> but yeah, i agree with syllogism 17:20 <@dpeg> greensnark: ^ 17:20 <+doy> starving basically makes you stop doing anything until you find food 17:21 <+doy> and also has reasonably large combat penalties 17:21 < ais523> no movement isn't really killing, a sufficiently skilled player could survive for quite a while without moving 17:21 -!- by [n=vollmert@a12.imp.fu-berlin.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:21 <+greensnark> What would this stat-starving effect be 17:21 < ais523> probably long enough to recover one point of dex 17:21 <@dpeg> greensnark: messages from time to time, and chance to die. 17:21 <+doy> ais523: you don't recover 'one point of dex', all regaining is done all at once 17:21 < ais523> ah, didn't realise that 17:21 <@dpeg> doy: innate recovering? 17:22 <+doy> dpeg: yes, including that 17:22 <+doy> (that could probably stand to be changed, but) 17:22 <@dpeg> doy: I am confused. If my Str if 3 (5) and I wait long enough, it will be 4 (5)??? 17:22 <+doy> no 17:22 <+doy> that's what i'm saying 17:23 <@dpeg> is that new? 17:23 <+doy> no 17:23 <@dpeg> And who's to blame? 17:23 <+doy> it's always been like that, as far as i know 17:23 <@dpeg> You make me wish I had a potion of decay on my Merfolk. 17:28 <+greensnark> dpeg: No adverse effects beyond the chance to die? 17:29 < syllogism> that's basically like having no stat loss at all for anyone not new to the game, which admittedly is already generally the case 17:30 < syllogism> adverse effects would be more interesting and would allow making stat draining monsters a bit more threatening 17:30 <@dpeg> greensnark: well, like Starving makes everything worse, Stat 0 should make fitting things worse 17:30 <+doy> yeah, i don't think we want to nerf stat draining monsters, really 17:30 <+greensnark> So adverse effects + timer ticking down to instakill 17:30 <@dpeg> yes 17:30 < syllogism> the stat draining monsters are currently a joke 17:30 <+greensnark> Can we define the adverse effects 17:30 <@dpeg> sure 17:31 < syllogism> but if there's no instadeath you can make them harder 17:31 <+greensnark> Yep 17:31 <@dpeg> Str: reduced CC 17:31 <@dpeg> Str: cap damage 17:31 < ais523> you could start draining points from the stat's max if the stat itself stayed at 0 for too long 17:31 <+greensnark> What's the current carrying capacity with Str at 0 17:31 < ais523> e.g. 0 (5) gradually became 0 (4), 0 (3) etc 17:31 <@dpeg> Dex: cap to-hit (to something very low) 17:31 < ais523> and 0 (0) killed you 17:31 < ais523> that way the delayed-instadeath would be less arbitrary 17:31 < syllogism> players dont like permanent penalties 17:31 <@dpeg> ais523: that is a permanent effect we wanted to avoid 17:32 <@dpeg> greensnark: it's basically their own weight 17:32 < ais523> hmm, I suppose so 17:32 <@dpeg> body_mass or something 17:32 <@dpeg> Int 0: no casting 17:32 <@dpeg> well, that's not enough 17:32 <@dpeg> also, innate stat recovery should be gradual not all at once (if doy is right :) 17:32 <+Zaba> int 0 should be no breathing, just like the current death message says. Can dive even without being merfolk! 17:33 <@dpeg> pfff :P 17:33 <+Zaba> (and of course with int 0, you're too stupid to realise you *need* air...) 17:33 <@dpeg> Int 0: no reading 17:34 < Vandal|PC> dpeg I meant to ask you, should I be sending revisions of the monsters.txt descriptions file to someone periodically? 17:34 < Vandal|PC> A little oversight is probably a good idea 17:35 <+greensnark> Ok, low CC for 0 Str 17:35 <+greensnark> 0 Dex = ? 17:35 < syllogism> what's CC :P 17:35 <@dpeg> Vandal|PC: to me would suffice. 17:35 < Vandal|PC> roger 17:35 <+greensnark> syllogism: Carrying capacity 17:35 < syllogism> ev penalty and to-hit penalty? 17:35 <+greensnark> Str 0 has a very low carrying capacity anyway 17:36 < syllogism> yeah, that's kind of boring 17:36 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, need mroe 17:36 <@dpeg> effect should be drastic 17:36 <@dpeg> what about halved movement speed? 17:36 <+doy> dpeg: yeah, the only place in the code that restores less than the full stat amount is that eating chunks as a ghoul can restore one point of strength 17:36 < Vandal|PC> chance of fumbling your weapon and hurting yourself in combat 17:36 < Vandal|PC> like being confused 17:37 < Vandal|PC> in addition to EV penalty 17:37 < Vandal|PC> and half movement speed? :D 17:37 < syllogism> should stats that hit 0 even be restored naturally or only with the potion and some abilities 17:38 < Vandal|PC> ^ this, if you don't spread out your stats enough to avoid hitting 0 it should be non-trivial to recover from 17:38 <@dpeg> okay. All stats: Slow. Str: CC/2, bad cap to to-dam. Dex: may hit yourself, bad cap to to-hit. Int: no casting, no reading. 17:38 <@dpeg> this is bad, because getting to zero then just is a delayed instedeath 17:39 < ais523> they should restore naturally, I think 17:39 < syllogism> at slower rate then 17:39 < Vandal|PC> I find potions of recover pretty frequently 17:39 < syllogism> the potions are really common 17:39 <+Keskitalo> Halving movement speed for 0 Str, halving attack speed for 0 Dex? 17:39 <+greensnark> Can we get rid of the instant stat restore and make it one-point-at-a-time regen? 17:40 <@dpeg> yes 17:40 <+doy> yes 17:40 < Vandal|PC> The odds of being deep enough in the dungeon to get zero statted, and not having found a single restore abilities potion seems very slim 17:40 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: would also work, but I think a common Slow flag for all of them would be good 17:40 <@dpeg> Vandal|PC: you can lose them 17:40 <+greensnark> Slow would be useful because it forces the player into an emergency situation if there are monsters around 17:41 <+greensnark> We want the player to be kicked into action :) 17:41 < Vandal|PC> Well, what greensnark just said would serve the same purpose 17:41 <@dpeg> OT: Do you sometimes note that a fleeing monster gets a headstart? I.e. ..@Y.., ==> ..@..Y. 17:41 < syllogism> they'll all just quaff !oRestoreAbilities :P 17:41 < Vandal|PC> if the stats came back slowly there would still be an impetus to quaff 17:41 < syllogism> which is why I still think you should get confused/paralyzed for a bit when you hit 0 17:41 <@dpeg> syllogism: that is absolutely okay. Most statdeaths come about b/c someone forgot to drink their potion. 17:42 <+Zaba> for int 0, it could be permanent confusion 17:42 <@dpeg> If they now do after the fact, fine. If they can cope with the Slow :( 17:42 <@dpeg> erm, :) 17:42 <@dpeg> (ie. the Slow should stay, normal duration) 17:42 < syllogism> dpeg: but the slow will be gone next turn 17:42 <@dpeg> no no 17:42 <@dpeg> takes some while to get that body back into action 17:42 < syllogism> what about other effects 17:43 <@dpeg> another idea: Stat 0 is bad for your organism, so rotting sets in 17:43 <@dpeg> (objective: even immediate !RA gulping should have some bad effect) 17:43 < Vandal|PC> oh and while we have so many active people talking, can someone explain what exactly a Guardian Serpent is? It looks like a snake with a human head in the tile? 17:44 <+doy> heh 17:44 <+Zaba> Vandal|PC, it used to be guardian naga 17:44 < Vandal|PC> I heard that 17:44 < Vandal|PC> But what are they now? 17:44 < Vandal|PC> Another specie, totally separate? 17:44 < eith> guardian serpents 17:44 < eith> did you read the mailing list :/ 17:44 <@dpeg> Vandal|PC: between nagas and snakes, if you want 17:44 <@dpeg> the missing link! 17:44 <+greensnark> Ok, I'm going to put up a wiki page with the stat death change proposals. 17:45 <@dpeg> yay 17:45 <+greensnark> This should go under brainstorm, right :P 17:45 < Vandal|PC> I don't have a bookmark to the mailing list archive 17:46 < Vandal|PC> Does it have a search function? 17:47 <+doy> greensnark: yes 17:53 < Vandal|PC> Is Aizul supposed to do less dmg in melee than a Guardian Serpent? 17:53 < eith> Vandal|PC: http://sourceforge.net/search/index.php?group_id=143991&words=(%2Bguardian+%2Bnaga)+AND+ml_name:(crawl-ref-discuss)&type_of_search=mlists&pmode=0&words=(%2Bguardian+%2Bnaga)+AND+ml_name:(crawl-ref-discuss)&Search=Search 17:53 < Vandal|PC> Thanks Eith 17:54 < cbus> You kill Pikel! 17:54 < cbus> You have reached level 6! 17:54 < cbus> Your experience leads to an increase in your attributes! 17:54 < cbus> You feel clever. 17:54 < cbus> You have reached level 7! 17:54 < cbus> You have reached level 8! 17:54 < cbus> You feel agile. 17:54 < Vandal|PC> XD 17:54 < cbus> lol, I turned off the wrong skill 17:54 < elly> nice 17:55 < cbus> blade hands or ice form? :D 17:55 < syllogism> both? :P 17:56 < cbus> Very Good vws Good 17:56 < Vandal|PC> Also, I see some discussion about changing the glyph or not.. I really think they should stand out more from a horde of Naga on Snake 5, seeing as they're so much faster moving 17:56 < Eifel> Ooze can talk?? 17:56 < Eifel> Dowan evaporates and reforms as an ooze! 17:56 < Eifel> Dowan says, "Magic and the sword, together, will defeat you." 17:56 < syllogism> he has neither in his new form :P 17:58 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has joined ##crawl-dev 17:58 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba_] by ChanServ 17:58 <@dpeg> syllogism: tell due! 18:00 < cbus> yawn, no oka 18:00 <+greensnark> How does an ooze talk :P 18:01 < cbus> whats the deepest level altars spawn? 18:01 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 18:01 < syllogism> don't quote me on this but 9 18:01 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:02 <@dpeg> cbus: 9 18:02 < eith> Vandal|PC: i think some of the point is they dont stand out, they are sneaky serpents 18:02 < Vandal|PC> cbus unless you count Jiyva 18:02 < Vandal|PC> That one is usually in Lair by the Slime Pits 18:02 < cbus> you can't throw darts with blade hands? 18:02 <@dpeg> cbus meant the temple altars, I am pretty sure. 18:02 < syllogism> cbus: is this shocking? :P 18:03 < cbus> syllogism, yes 18:03 < syllogism> you've no fingers 18:12 <@dpeg> greensnark: we are waiting for the statdeath wiki! 18:12 <@dpeg> :) 18:13 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@ip102.148.adsl.wplus.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev 18:13 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba] by ChanServ 18:14 <@dpeg> Hi! 18:14 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 18:14 < Ashenzari> Memorization screen doesn't work with more than 52 spells (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=350) by tinyrodent 18:15 <+doy> one of these days i'll fix this bot 18:15 < nrook> what's wrong with it? 18:16 <+doy> one of the modules throws an exception when it looks for recent changes and there aren't any 18:16 <+doy> it's an easy fi 18:16 <+doy> x 18:16 <+doy> i'm just lazy 18:17 < nrook> ah 18:17 < ais523> doy: if you're really lazy, just wrap it in an eval or something 18:18 < ais523> horrendous practice, but it would work 18:19 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:22 < Eifel> Anyone running crawl on a ps3? 18:22 <+greensnark> Stats page updated at: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:stats 18:23 <+greensnark> I've probably missed or misundestood some ideas, so please update :) 18:23 <+greensnark> Also my wiki skills suck, so if the pge would be better elsewhere, please move it 18:25 <+doy> ais523: what? 18:25 <+doy> that's... how exception handling works 18:25 <+doy> it's certainly not horrendous practice 18:25 < ais523> doy: I mean, without actually doing anything with the exception 18:26 < ais523> exception handling requires actual handling 18:26 < ais523> rather than just forgetting it's there 18:26 <+doy> rethrowing if it's not the expected error is like one more line of code, i'm not quite *that* lazy 18:26 <+doy> (: 18:38 -!- Vandal|PC [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:40 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * re5d02f46f34e /crawl-ref/source/view.cc: Reuse "out of range" tile for movement restrictions when mesmerised. 18:40 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r9f8953a17872 /crawl-ref/source/view.cc: Remove commented out conditionals. 18:54 < cbus> greensnark, watch my game 18:55 < cbus> greensnark, how am I supposed to reach this? 18:55 <+doy> !whereis cbus 18:55 < Henzell> cbus the Spear-Bearer (L10 MfTh), a worshipper of Okawaru, last saved on D:6 on 2009-08-27 after 10770 turns. 18:55 < cbus> doy, pingpong on CDO 18:56 <+doy> cbus: levitation 18:56 <+doy> i think some of those vaults might come with a potion 18:56 < cbus> no levitation so far except a book which I can't cast from (and don't have enough spell slots)( 18:56 <+doy> but maybe not 18:56 <+doy> not like levitation is that hard to find anyway 18:56 < cbus> you shouldn't need levitation for something that should be found around temple level 18:57 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * ra78feb871bea /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/item/armour/artefact/urand_pondering.png: Tweak "hat of Pondering" tile to be less garish. 18:57 < cbus> doy, I'm tempted to wield and unvield distortion to blink there 18:58 <+doy> cbus: you whine too much d: 18:58 < cbus> that didn't help 18:59 < syllogism> uh was that stairs up? 18:59 < cbus> yes 18:59 < cbus> and the \are broken 18:59 < cbus> they are just stone arches 18:59 <+doy> cbus: which \? 18:59 < cbus> the \ in the abyss 18:59 <+doy> nah, just some of them 18:59 < cbus> found 2 so far 18:59 <+doy> i think that one was my idea 18:59 <+doy> (: 19:00 <@dpeg> greensnark: looks good. I cannot edit because jpeg has it. 19:00 <+doy> it's not generating any fewer actual exits, in any case 19:00 < cbus> 3 19:00 <@dpeg> doy likes a little teasing on the side :) 19:00 -!- by [n=rob@e177085143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev 19:00 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ 19:01 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 19:01 < ais523> does it tease just as much in tiles? 19:03 <+doy> cbus: oh hey, you're using the new interface, finally 19:03 < cbus> doy, its broken :( 19:03 < cbus> if you dont have anything in range and press . on evaporate it does it on you 19:03 <+doy> sounds like a bug 19:04 <+doy> should file it 19:04 < cbus> and norbert uses wands when confusde 19:04 <+doy> also sounds like a bug 19:04 < syllogism> i think they zap the wands at random directions 19:04 <+doy> ah 19:04 <+doy> that's fine then 19:04 <+doy> (: 19:05 < Ashenzari> confusion and wands (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=351) by cbus 19:05 < cbus> too late 19:05 < cbus> posted 2 19:06 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:09 < cbus> char finished, now I can get back to playing with oka 19:09 <+doy> and this is why oka needs to be gotten rid of 19:09 < cbus> doesn't matter, if I decide for makhleb before the game I go for makhleb 19:10 < Ashenzari> evaporate targetting (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=352) by cbus 19:10 < cbus> it has nothing to do with oka, its the weird decission to make some gods inaccessible 19:11 <+by> cbus: best make some accessible and thematic altar vaults; the inaccessible ones will become rarer that way 19:11 < cbus> nah, bored of playing 19:11 < cbus> lost all my will to continue after that 19:12 -!- by [n=rob@e177085143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:12 -!- by_ [n=rob@g225109252.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev 19:12 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by_] by ChanServ 19:12 -!- by_ is now known as by 19:12 < ais523> I think it's amusing that every single time I ask ##crawl which god to choose, they say Okawaru 19:13 < cbus> lets try 19:13 < cbus> zin 19:13 < ais523> my best game was MDFi of Zin 19:13 < ais523> although, I did have carnivore 1 as a mutation that game 19:16 <@dpeg> greensnark: the Ploog sibling have replied 19:16 < cbus> ais523, my best game was a makhleb game 19:20 <+doy> !lg max=sc god!=the shining one 19:20 < Henzell> 729. doy the Merfolkian Porcupine (L27 MfGl), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2009-03-06, with 9588581 points after 172635 turns and 33:56:50. 19:20 <+doy> makhleb++ 19:20 <+doy> !lg max=sc 19:20 < Henzell> 747. doy the Merfolkian Porcupine (L27 MfGl), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2009-03-06, with 9588581 points after 172635 turns and 33:56:50. 19:20 <+doy> oh hey, alright then 19:20 <+doy> (: 19:21 <+doy> !lg * ktyp=winning s=god 19:21 < Henzell> 2128 games for * (ktyp=winning): 534x Okawaru, 265x Sif Muna, 251x Trog, 193x Makhleb, 164x The Shining One, 162x Vehumet, 100x Nemelex Xobeh, 80x Lugonu, 77x , 68x Xom, 57x Elyvilon, 54x Yredelemnul, 46x Beogh, 40x Zin, 32x Kikubaaqudgha, 3x Fedhas, 2x Jiyva 19:21 <+doy> !lg * ktyp=winning s=god cv>=0.5 19:21 < Henzell> 756 games for * (ktyp=winning cv>=0.5): 140x Okawaru, 106x Sif Muna, 104x Trog, 92x Makhleb, 61x The Shining One, 54x Nemelex Xobeh, 35x Vehumet, 31x Yredelemnul, 30x , 28x Lugonu, 20x Elyvilon, 14x Kikubaaqudgha, 13x Xom, 13x Beogh, 10x Zin, 3x Fedhas, 2x Jiyva 19:22 <+doy> !lg * ktyp=winning s=god cv>=0.5 urune=15 19:22 < Henzell> 84 games for * (ktyp=winning cv>=0.5 urune=15): 26x The Shining One, 17x Sif Muna, 8x Makhleb, 7x Okawaru, 5x Nemelex Xobeh, 5x , 4x Lugonu, 2x Zin, 2x Vehumet, 2x Kikubaaqudgha, 2x Trog, 1x Elyvilon, 1x Beogh, 1x Yredelemnul, 1x Xom 19:22 <+doy> !lg * ktyp=winning urune=15 god=xom 19:22 < Henzell> 5. Grimm the Swordmaster (L27 MiSt), worshipper of Xom, escaped with the Orb and 16 runes on 2009-10-25, with 11309785 points after 141747 turns and 8:53:51. 19:22 <+doy> impressive 19:22 <+doy> (: 19:24 < ais523> what's cv? 19:24 < Vandal> oh, dpeg, I was asking due if he would take the shield penalty away from blowguns too 19:24 < ais523> also, minotaur stalker? 19:25 < Vandal> reason being, blowguns new effects are a lot like zapping a wand you have to wield 19:25 < Vandal> wands don't get penalized by shields 19:25 < Vandal> I had an Assassin with 2x wands of slowing, and needles of slowing 19:25 <+doy> ais523: a lot of fields have 'c'-prefixed variants, which compress a lot of irrelevant data 19:25 <+doy> for version, it gets rid of minor versions 19:25 < Vandal> Guess which got used more, despite having more Throwing skill than Evocations? 19:25 < ais523> ah 19:26 <+doy> for race, it gets rid of colored dracs 19:26 <+doy> etc 19:26 < ais523> oh well, time to go home 19:26 -!- ais523 [n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:29 < Vandal> Agnes.png looks like she is holding a short blade 19:29 < Vandal> She uses Lajatangs though? 19:29 <+doy> she does 19:30 < Vandal> Thanks 19:30 < Vandal> Should I open a ticket about her tile? 19:30 <+doy> sounds reasonable 19:35 < Ashenzari> Agnes tile looks like she is holding a Short Blade, not a Lajatang (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=353) by Vandal 19:40 < Ashenzari> Cycling quiver sometimes broken (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=354) by Napkin 19:53 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."] 19:54 < cbus> Level annotation: exclusions: hound, hound, giant cockroach, giant cockroach, 19:54 < cbus> and 208 more exclusions 19:54 < cbus> is this a bug? 19:54 <+doy> that's... pretty weird 19:55 <+doy> have you messed with your config at all? 19:55 < cbus> its this weird random flame next to temple vault 19:55 < cbus> doy, yes 19:55 < cbus> doy, I turned on gold 19:55 <+doy> dangerous cloud generators should be auto-excluded 19:56 <+doy> but i think only stationary monsters (statues, oklobs, curse skulls, etc) are autoexcluded by default 19:56 <+doy> in terms of monsters 19:57 < cbus> it seemed to messed up some how and excluded everything else on the map (or atleast it said so) 19:57 < cbus> (on level (re)entry) 19:57 <+doy> so if random other monsters are getting auto-exclusions, that's a bug 19:57 <+doy> hmmm, strange 19:57 <+doy> yeah, probably report that 19:59 < cbus> posted 20:00 < Ashenzari> random flame vault bug (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=355) by cbus 20:00 < syllogism> did autoexplore work on that level 20:01 < cbus> yaeh 20:01 < cbus> I'll try again 20:02 < cbus> it still does 20:02 < cbus> probably want to grab the save 20:02 < cbus> I don't have shell access anymore (don't have keys set up) 20:02 < cbus> grab the save off pingpong on CDO 20:11 < Vandal> Is there a reason Angels belong to TSO and not just good gods in general? 20:11 <+doy> tso is the warrior god 20:11 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r316462f8ec9f /crawl-ref/source/tilemcache.cc: Correct comments in get_weapon_offset() 20:11 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r8c4d829ecf56 /crawl-ref/source/tilemcache.cc: Slight reordering in get_weapon_offset(). 20:11 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r81ae2f6d1154 /crawl-ref/source/ (rltiles/dc-mon/unique/agnes.png tilemcache.cc): Fix 0000353: Make Agnes' tile wield a lajatang. 20:11 <+doy> out of the good gods 20:11 < Vandal> Oh ok 20:11 <+doy> ely is a pacifist, doesn't seem like she'd approve of her minions going around killing things 20:11 < Vandal> Should "The" in "the Shining One" be capitalized? 20:12 <+doy> probably 20:12 < Twinge> I'd say yes 20:12 < Vandal> Ok I'll fix that in the descriptions 20:12 < MarvinPA> i don't suppose anyone can help me with http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=356 ? 20:12 < MarvinPA> or am i forced to quit? :( 20:13 < Twinge> Marvin: Find Kirke, join him ;) 20:13 < MarvinPA> heh 20:13 < Twinge> But yeah dunno what to do about that 20:14 < Vandal> Can Angels wear armor / wield weapons? 20:15 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 20:15 < Ashenzari> Permanent swine form caused by Nemelex wrath (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=356) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 20:15 -!- neunon [n=neunon@unaffiliated/neunon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16 < Vandal> better question, if I spawn a monster in Wizmode, will it come with weapons like a normal dungeon generated monster? 20:16 < eith> yea, normal monsters 20:17 < Vandal> ah 20:17 < Vandal> I just tried this and answered my own question 20:17 < Vandal> I'll do this in the future :P 20:18 <+doy> you can specify specific weapons and stuff if you want to 20:18 < eith> :) 20:18 < Vandal> oh neat 20:18 <+doy> ??fight 20:18 < Henzell> fight[1/7]: the best(/spammiest) invention since ever. telnet termcast.org (FightClub channel) to watch. "!fight cancel" to end a fight that's stalled, or repeat the same command line with "cancel" at the end, e.g. !fight butterfly v butterfly cancel. 20:18 < Vandal> well I just need whatever they naturally come with 20:18 < Twinge> Hmm. Still thinking Pikel's exp is too high even considering the slaves. If he spawns on D4 1 in 7 times, he increases the average exp/monster by 135% ;O 20:18 <+doy> ??fight[2] 20:18 < Henzell> fight[2/7]: Examples: "!fight 20-headed hydra v 10 kobold ; scimitar ego:flaming", "!fight 99 orc v the royal jelly", "!fight electrical eel v 10 rat". Note the syntax for some monsters -- make sure you aren't pluralizing, and spell monster names correctly. 20:19 <+doy> 'kobold ; scimitar ego:flaming' works in the wizmode monster creation prompt too 20:19 < Vandal> I'm spotting some more inconsistencies while trying to give proper descriptions 20:19 < Vandal> such as 20:19 < Vandal> Angels in the tile have a sword, shield, and armour 20:19 < Vandal> The ones I spawned have a mace and a robe 20:20 < Vandal> The tile has a mace floating over their shield and a sword in their other hand 20:20 < Vandal> Is this how they occur naturally? 20:21 < Vandal> Spawned 4 now.. same setup on all of them 20:21 < Vandal> One has a Glowing Robe though :) 20:22 < Vandal> So before I open another ticket, I just want to know if spawning them in Wizmode is the same as they are spawned when levels generate with them 20:22 < eith> do you need to put equipment in the descriptions? people can just look at the monsters? 20:22 < Vandal> or say, TSO sends you some 20:22 < eith> cause lots of stuff has varying equipment like 20:22 < Vandal> eith, the issue is the tile itself is inaccurate at this point 20:23 < eith> ah right 20:23 < Vandal> And looks weird having a mace plastered on top of a green shield :) 20:23 <+doy> Vandal: you can gain piety and make tso give you gifts in wizmode too 20:24 <+doy> but really though, is there a reason that regular monster tiles have weapons built into them anyway? 20:24 -!- neunon [n=neunon@unaffiliated/neunon] has joined ##crawl-dev 20:24 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v neunon] by ChanServ 20:24 <+doy> or is it just "we didn't used to have overlays, and redoing all the tiles now is hard" 20:26 * Keskitalo takes a look at the angel 20:27 <+Keskitalo> Hehe, I have a whip coming out of the shield. 20:28 <+Keskitalo> Vandal: Open a ticket, yeah. The tile needs to be adjusted/redone to use the varying equipment. 20:28 <+Keskitalo> Not sure if there are shield overlays for monsters.. 20:30 <+Keskitalo> Not at least for vault guards. 20:30 < Vandal> Well, Daevas do come with a sword and shield 20:30 < Vandal> at least my summoned one did 20:30 < Vandal> so theirs makes sense 20:30 < Vandal> Angels were a recolor of Daevas or vice versa 20:31 <+Keskitalo> Ach so. 20:31 < Vandal> The next two Daevas both have swords and shields as well 20:35 < Vandal> actually my tiles version is .5 .. are there a lot of tile changes to monsters in .6? 20:35 <+doy> there have been a bunch, not sure how much though 20:35 < eith> =p 20:35 < Vandal> I'll go get an offline version of trunk's current build I guess 20:35 < eith> you have the source though, with the tiles, just build it 20:35 < eith> or that yea 20:37 < Vandal> well uh 20:37 < Vandal> maybe I should learn how to build it :o 20:38 < Vandal> that was a good point 20:38 < eith> i dont think you have to do anything more than just type make tiles 20:39 < Vandal> I guess if you're on *nix 20:39 <+doy> there should be recent windows trunk builds on cdo 20:39 < eith> msysgit comes with a build environment though doesnt it 20:39 < eith> ive never actually built it on windows 20:41 < Twinge> eith: It does if you get the net install version 20:41 < Vandal> umm.. I have Visual Studio 2010 beta, gonna try that 20:42 < Twinge> After installing MSysGit, do "git submodule update --init" in the top crawl-ref dir, and then do "make" in the source directory. (probably want to do "make debug", or at least "make wizard".) 20:42 < eith> i dont see that working easy 20:42 < eith> cool 20:42 <+doy> we do support visual studio 20:42 < Twinge> I just did this last night, so it's fresh on my mind, hehe 20:42 <+doy> so it should theoretically work 20:42 < Vandal> crap 20:43 < Vandal> ok hold on :) 20:43 < eith> its not mentitioned in install.txt 20:43 <+doy> i don't know how many people do it though 20:44 <+doy> there's an MSVC directory under source/ 20:44 < Vandal> What is a source directory? 20:44 < Vandal> oh 20:44 < Vandal> wait I think I know 20:44 <+sorear> A directory for source. 20:44 < eith> =p 20:44 <+doy> in this case, the directory named 'source' 20:45 < Vandal> well 20:45 < Vandal> the git submodule update part worked 20:45 < Vandal> make isn't recognized as a command though 20:45 <+Keskitalo> I really really really love how getting to Lair doesn't feel like going to easy mode for a while anymore. 20:46 < eith> you need to run c:\nsysgitzmsys.bat, according to install.txt, you should probly read it =p 20:46 < eith> ah balls i typed that bad :/ 20:46 <+doy> looks like neunon is currently maintaining the msvc stuff? 20:46 < eith> c:\msysgit\msys.bat 20:47 <@dpeg> Vandal: I don't think the shield penalty should be removed. Otherwise shield+blowgun becomes a new nobrainer. 20:47 < Vandal> How? 20:47 <+doy> Vandal: for stabbers 20:47 < Vandal> blowguns are not a weapon as much as a method of applying debuffs 20:47 <+doy> who are already using one-handed weapons 20:48 < Vandal> they're like wands with less variety 20:48 <+doy> that would make all stabbers basically require shields 20:48 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@80-41-157-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 20:48 < Vandal> I would use a shield with a blowgun anyway 20:48 <+doy> 'require' is the wrong word there, but yeah 20:48 < Vandal> Most of the time you just use shoot 1 dart and go back to mauling it 20:48 < Vandal> or running 20:49 < Vandal> the only time you shoot more than 1 is Poison darts 20:49 <+doy> Vandal: that's a valid choice 20:49 < Vandal> I dunno, already seems "no-brainer" to me to use a shield as a stabber 20:49 <+doy> but at least with the current setup, there will be cases where going without a shield is better 20:49 <@dpeg> Vandal: slings got a substantial buff so far. Why not wait and see how it plays? 20:50 < Vandal> dpeg, what do slings have to do with being a blowgun user? :o 20:50 <+doy> slings got a buff by removing their shield penalty 20:50 <+doy> so it's worth seeing how much that affects things 20:50 < Vandal> entirely different skills now that due separated Throwing from using Slings 20:51 < Vandal> er if not using it, slings training Throwing 20:51 < Vandal> I never did figure out if Slings used to use Throwing skill and that was why they trained it 20:51 <+Keskitalo> !tell I had a nice encounter with Gastronok as well! 20:51 < eith> everything used to use throwing, it was ranged combat, or am i remembering wrong 20:51 < Henzell> Keskitalo: OK, I'll let I know. 20:51 < Vandal> oh 20:51 <+doy> eith: that was a long time ago 20:51 < eith> yea 20:51 <+doy> this change was a lot more recent 20:53 < Vandal> I guess my point really was that Blowguns feel like inferior Wands, but maybe monsters not being capable of becoming immune to Blowgun effects is enough difference to eventually justify slowing them down with shields 20:53 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-157-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:53 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA 20:53 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: After the Lair change/shortening, entering it has always been challenging and felt different from Dungeon. That's only a half a dozen games but it's been really good so far. 20:54 < eith> Vandal: thats the thing, need to wait and see how things go, cant just change everything and hope itll balance 20:54 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: yes, I agree. Seems to be okay. 20:54 <@dpeg> Vandal: blowguns got buffed as well 20:55 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Good call from Johanna to not making it quite as challening as suggested. (She consolidated L:1-2 and L:3-4 instead of just cutting L:1 and L:2) 20:55 <@dpeg> yes 20:55 < Vandal> All I'm saying is, you got Needles of Slowing, and Wands of Slowing, and Wands are a lot more attractive imo :) The only advantage I can see the Needles having is working on magic immune monsters 20:56 < eith> wands are terrible against anything with mr 20:56 < Vandal> yes.. that is my point 20:56 < Twinge> Keskitalo: your tell was to "I", by the way :P 20:56 <+doy> Vandal: wand charges are a lot more valuable too 20:57 <+doy> you can reuse needles 20:57 < Vandal> sometimes 20:57 < eith> still more than wands 20:57 < Vandal> you can recharge wands too 20:57 <+Keskitalo> Twinge: Oops, thanks! 20:57 <@dpeg> Vandal: there is no point clamouring for more buffs right now 20:57 < eith> true, but those scrolls are limited and youll want them for your healing and tele wands 20:57 <+Keskitalo> !tell due I had a nice encounter with Gastronok as well! 20:57 < Henzell> Keskitalo: OK, I'll let due know. 20:57 <@dpeg> we will see how the current changes work out 20:58 < Vandal> dpeg, sure, it was just a minor thing 20:58 < eith> too many buffs recently! whats being nerfed =p 20:58 < eith> oh ac! 20:58 < Twinge> Vandal: Keep in mind needles are fixed now. You're not going to get 100% procs on anything that has more than 2 hit dice. 20:58 < Twinge> So you will be shooting more than 1 needle often enough 20:58 < Vandal> I never had 100% procs on the SpAs I was testing blowguns on 20:58 < Vandal> worked in 1 shot often enough though 20:59 < Vandal> I'd get the Slow one resisted sometimes? 20:59 < Vandal> maybe they were just misses 20:59 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has joined ##crawl-dev 20:59 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba_] by ChanServ 20:59 < Twinge> I'd like blowguns to get less of a shield penalty than bows, but it there should still be a penalty. 21:00 < Twinge> Might've just been misses; until 2 days ago all the new needle egos were 100% proc on hit, I believe. Or maybe you needed blowgun skill 5 to make it 100%; it was bad, anyway. 21:00 < Vandal> oh, neat 21:01 < Twinge> Also, I don't know if you can ever get a Wand of Slowing to work on a pan lord even with 27 Evo; you can with a high enough BlowgunSkill and a well-enchanted Blowgun, so that is an appeal over wands. 21:01 < Vandal> Twinge, yes, I acknowledged that twice :) 21:02 < eith> we should be nerfing blowguns in that case =p 21:02 < Twinge> @??Cerbov 21:02 < Gretell> unknown monster: "Cerbov" 21:02 < eith> he has low mr, like 150 21:02 < Twinge> ??pan lords 21:02 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled pan_lords in my learndb. 21:02 < Twinge> ??pan lord 21:02 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled pan_lord in my learndb. 21:02 < eith> @??cerebov 21:02 < Gretell> Cerebov (&) | Speed: 10 | HD: 21 | Health: 650 | AC/EV: 30/8 | Damage: 60 | Flags: demonic, see invisible | Res: magic(168), hellfire+++, poison | XP: 15000 | Sp: fire storm, iron shot, haste, greater demon. 21:03 < Twinge> Thank you :P 21:03 <+doy> yeah, ?vulnerability would bring that to 84, which would be pretty trivial to overcome with wands 21:03 < eith> you can actually enslave him even 8) 21:03 < Twinge> Haha 21:04 < Twinge> eith: You could proc Cerebov 100% until 2 days ago. Now you still need a ton of blowgun skill and a good blowgun, and even then your success rate is going to be less than 50%. 21:04 < eith> cool 21:04 <+doy> @??ancient lich 21:04 < Gretell> ancient lich (L) | Speed: 12 | HD: 27 | Health: 54-162 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Damage: 20(drain) | Flags: undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(504), fire, cold++, elec++, poison | XP: 10944 | Sp: b.cold, paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot, teleport self / b.draining, animate dead, summon undead, throw frost, crystal spear / b.fire, confuse, haste, b.draining, grea 21:04 < Vandal> hmm 21:04 < Vandal> I think I got the wrong version of msysGit 21:04 < Vandal> That would explain some things 21:04 < Twinge> get the net version. 21:05 <+Keskitalo> cdo/trunk windoes build updated to 0.6.0-a1-2068 21:05 < Twinge> Though, I think the full version should work too actually. 21:05 <@dpeg> Folks, we are getting more and more bug reports which revolve around message spam. 21:05 < Twinge> But they support and suggest the net version 21:05 < Vandal> It didn't have the msys.bat file in the directory eith gave me 21:06 <@dpeg> I always said that there should be some attack on that for 0.6. But it seems we should make a plan right now, otherwise we get ad-hoc bug fixes, possibly conflicting with a broader plan. 21:06 <@dpeg> Anyone interested in discussing this? 21:06 < Vandal> Consolidate "you feel sick" messages when resting 21:07 < Vandal> If it doesn't stop your resting, just combine them into 1 line when you do stop resting 21:07 <@dpeg> welll ... 21:08 < Vandal> Sorry, that is all I got :[ not familiar with the issue 21:08 <@dpeg> perhaps I should kickstart things with a wiki page 21:08 <+doy> dpeg: i think consolidating identical messages in the message area is a big one 21:08 <+doy> that's been a fr forever 21:08 <@dpeg> yes 21:08 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08 <+doy> but is hard 21:08 <+doy> currently anyway 21:08 <@dpeg> This would also help with butcher not needing a --more-- prompt all the time 21:08 <+doy> yes 21:09 <@dpeg> imo, the targeting spam is even worse 21:11 < Cryp71c> Are pots of mut different for Ds than other races on trunk? 21:11 < Cryp71c> eg, diff % to give positive or negative muts? 21:11 <+doy> dpeg: yes, that too 21:11 <+doy> we give way too much information about things in the message area 21:11 <+doy> a lot of it should be moved to 'v' 21:11 <+doy> and a lot of it should be combined into a single message 21:12 < Twinge> So - a wiki page with a laundry list of all the areas that can reasonably be tweaked to reduce message spam, and once that's stewed for a few days, it can be attacked all at once - that helps prevent things from being overlooked, and should also help the to be fixed right instead of hacky. 21:12 <+doy> we just add new messages by adding additional lines 21:12 < Twinge> doy: Have a variable store the last message posted, and check the message you're about to post to see if it's identical? 21:12 <+Keskitalo> "Mindless" is too much in plain x. (OTOH, for a pacifier, the info is great to have there. Perhaps a long-term wishlist could include some context-sensitivity. :)) 21:12 < Vandal> Just don't take away seeing what a monster is wearing / wielding from the targetting prompt.. 21:12 <+doy> the only monster status messages that should appear in the message area are ones that aren't based on the monster's intrinsic abilities 21:13 <+doy> so mindless, see invis, etc should go 21:13 <+doy> and get moved to 'v' 21:13 <+Keskitalo> Vandal: That doesn't add new lines usually. 21:13 <@dpeg> doy: I know, I made a complete proposal somewhere :) 21:13 <+Keskitalo> I don't think moving those around is a big task! 21:13 <+doy> stuff like equipment wielded, confused, etc should stay 21:13 < Vandal> poisoned 21:13 <+doy> yeah 21:15 <+doy> i think those two things are the main issues 21:15 <+doy> hmmm, the targeting prompt itself is also pretty big 21:15 <@dpeg> doy: which two? Please state again. 21:15 <+doy> but that's more minor i think? 21:16 <+doy> dpeg: compressing identical messages and descriptions of things when you're looking around 21:16 <@dpeg> yes, agreed 21:16 <@dpeg> all of you who are interested, please have a look and comment on the wiki I am making right now 21:17 <+doy> by: will your messagewindow branch make it any easier to manipulate previous messages? 21:17 <+doy> or is that completely separate 21:18 <+kilobyte> dpeg: Yredelemnul's Enslave Soul has two abuses: 1. no matter how much you drain the guy, he gets restored to full HD, 2. twisted souls depend only on corpse size, not quality -- so you get big abominations from popcorn monsters 21:18 <+kilobyte> dpeg: would it be ok to use the monster's HD, or does this warrant longer discussion? 21:18 < Vandal> crap.. I have gone without using command lines for way too long 21:19 <+kilobyte> as a side effect, a twisted soul from a HD 16 giant would produce a HD 16 abomination not HD 11, so that's not a strict nerf 21:20 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I think the draining abuse is okay. The second one is not. 21:21 <@dpeg> big abominations from popcorn is bad 21:21 < Vandal> Is "make TILES=y debug" the command I want to use then for a Tiles + Debug mode build? 21:21 <+kilobyte> Vandal: yes 21:22 < Vandal> Thanks 21:23 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-157-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [] 21:25 <+kilobyte> dpeg: would that solution be ok? 21:25 < Vandal> It would appear Daevas are actually less clothed than Angels even 21:25 < dis_astranagant> might want to tack on -j<# of processor cores +1> to make it build in something resembling a sane amount of time 21:26 < Vandal> oh.. well maybe next time! 21:26 < Vandal> It is done now anyway 21:28 <+kilobyte> dis_astranagant: C++ compilation is strongly CPU- and memory-bound, in my tests, it's much better to use -j. Regular C compiles far more efficiently, and indeed -j is a good idea there. 21:29 <+Keskitalo> Gotta love poisoned arrows + Cause Fear on AM. 21:32 <@dpeg> kilobyte: sorry, still busy on the message wiki. What solution? 21:32 <@dpeg> Vandal: hey, sexy daevas 21:32 < Vandal> hot hot hot 21:32 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 21:33 < Twinge> dis: Oh, would that have made my first build take less than 500 years? ;) 21:33 < Vandal> dpeg, how do I handle stuff like a monster tile having golden armor, but the monster not actually spawning with any armor? 21:33 <@dpeg> I think if you cannot spare a millenium to build Crawl, then the game may be nothing for you. 21:33 < Vandal> Just describe the set armor in the tile? 21:34 < Vandal> Or would Daevas possibly actually get real armor in the future? 21:34 <@dpeg> Vandal: I have no idea, I am an ASCII purist. (But I *value* tiles, in contrast to some flame warriors.) 21:34 < Vandal> me too 21:34 <+kilobyte> dpeg: setting the abomination's HD to whatever the monster you killed had. Centaurs have 4, stone giants 16. 21:34 < Vandal> Someone in here just said I should make sure the descriptions match what the tiles already show 21:34 < Vandal> it was sound advice I think, because I have no idea how some of these monsters would look without a picture 21:35 <+doy> use the tile images for what the monsters actually look like 21:35 <+doy> but ignore the items they have 21:36 < Vandal> Right.. but what about when they look like they've got armor, but they don't actually have armor? just hope the players overlook that part? 21:36 < eith> they could have picked up an armour anyways though 21:36 < Vandal> @??daeva 21:36 < Gretell> Daeva (A) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 84-154 | AC/EV: 10/13 | Damage: 25, 10 | Flags: holy, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(149), poison | XP: 2897 | Sp: smiting. 21:37 < Vandal> They have 10 AC, so right now I would mention their golden armour in their description along with what the tile shows 21:38 < Vandal> Angels are a little more tricky because their tile shows armor, but they come equipped with a Robe 21:38 < Vandal> @??angel 21:38 < Gretell> Angel (A) | Speed: 15 | HD: 12 | Health: 72-132 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Damage: 25, 10 | Flags: holy, see invisible, fly | Res: magic(128), elec++, poison | XP: 2089 | Sp: minor healing. 21:38 < Vandal> so they actually have more armor than a Daeva 21:38 <+doy> Vandal: in terms of cleaning up monster descriptions, don't worry about that part 21:39 <+doy> we can clean up tile images later 21:39 <+doy> don't mention any armour or weapons in the monster descriptions, except maybe for uniques 21:39 <@dpeg> kilobyte: that is okay. 21:39 < Vandal> I guess I'll just open tickets as I find weirdnesses like that 21:40 < Twinge> Maybe just take notes and open one bigger ticket withthem all together 21:40 <+doy> or just make the notes on a wiki page 21:40 < Vandal> yeah a wiki page might be best 21:40 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I like the idea of draining someone badly, then using Yrdy's power to get him back in good shape. But killing the abuse is more important than that and your proposal is a simple and honest solution. 21:40 <+doy> similar to the 'tiles needed for 0.6' page 21:41 <+kilobyte> dpeg: we can use the base HD if you wish, it would keep draining+restoring but stop large abominations from centaurs/sheep 21:41 <+doy> base hd sounds good 21:42 <+kilobyte> ok. 21:43 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes, that is as simple 21:43 <@dpeg> your choice :) Both have their own advantages 21:43 <+kilobyte> right. 21:45 <+kilobyte> Now, that someone mentioned angels/daevas and armour... What do you think about Eronarn's FR to stop halo from nuking the source's evasion? (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=323) 21:46 <@dpeg> kilobyte: it's probably okay but who thinks of nerfing TSO in turn? 21:46 <+doy> well 21:46 <+doy> it really wouldn't be a nerf to the current playstyles tso supports 21:46 <+kilobyte> daevas have 13 EV, angels 20, with low AC 21:46 < Vandal> Whenever I see people talk about TSO they consider him only really useful for end game because his conducts are too restricting 21:47 < eith> no, not the conducts 21:47 < eith> its his abilitys only are good for demons 21:47 < Vandal> oh 21:47 < Vandal> well the conducts being so strict is a major whine topic 21:47 <+kilobyte> TSO is worthless before late game, insanely good for 15-runers 21:47 < eith> people like to whine :) 21:47 <+doy> there are a lot of major whine topics 21:47 < eith> his conduct is not so bad at all now, it used to be worse 21:47 < Vandal> just makes him even less appealing in the early game 21:47 < Vandal> yeah I don't mind them personally 21:47 < eith> hes useless anyways =p 21:47 < Vandal> but he is no Trog 21:47 <@dpeg> Vandal: the conduct used to be much more strict 21:48 <+kilobyte> but generally, he's a beefed up Makhleb who works only against undead/demons 21:48 < Vandal> I know 21:48 <@dpeg> I think that TSO should simply not be a starting god 21:48 <@dpeg> would solve several issues at once 21:48 <+doy> yeah 21:48 < eith> thats a good plan i think 21:48 < Vandal> So no more Paladins? 21:48 <@dpeg> yes 21:48 <+doy> better than trying to rebalance him yet again 21:48 <@dpeg> doy: the god is good, just not early on 21:48 <+doy> right 21:48 <@dpeg> so why force it? 21:48 < Vandal> Well that would be fine I guess if Blades were also consolidated, so people who wanted to start training Long Blades would be training Blades in general 21:48 <@dpeg> you can start with a good god, if you want 21:49 <@dpeg> Vandal: these are completely separate issues 21:49 < Vandal> The main appeal to a Paladin for me was getting a Long Blade .. if the class is axed then no more starting classes get a Long Blade, right? 21:49 <@dpeg> falchion > TSO? 21:49 < syllogism> falchion sucks :P 21:49 < eith> at the start, it is yes 21:49 < Vandal> It is still training the skill I wanted 21:49 <@dpeg> or, the other way around: did players abandon TSO on turn 1= 21:49 <+doy> dpeg: starting long blade skill is better than the falchion 21:49 <@dpeg> ? 21:49 <+doy> d: 21:50 <@dpeg> doy: ah! 21:50 < eith> people abandon him at the temple 21:50 < ogaz> dpeg: I know nagas and maybe spriggans abandoned him turn 1 21:50 <@dpeg> but if you have a species with good SBl and LBl, it won'T matter anyway 21:50 <+doy> ??lm 21:50 < Henzell> milestone[1/4]: Milestone fields: v, cv, name, race, cls, char, xl, sk, sklev, title, place, br, lvl, ltyp, hp, mhp, mmhp, str, int, dex, god, dur, turn, nrune, urune, time, type, noun, milestone, game_id. game_id points at the game owning the milestone, to see the corresponding game use !lg * id=<1245>. game_id may be null. 21:50 < Vandal> and yeah TSO does absolutely nothing for you compared to Trog at the start of the game 21:50 <+doy> ??lm[2] 21:50 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled lm[2] in my learndb. 21:50 < eith> thats not a fair comparison =p 21:50 <+doy> ??milestone[2] 21:50 < Henzell> milestone[2/4]: type = type of milestone (see !lm * s=type for all types), noun = the thing that the milestone refers to. noun may be Sigmund if type=uniq, for instance. 21:50 < syllogism> ??lm * noun=~abandoned the shining turn=1 21:50 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled lm__nounabandoned_the_shining_turn1 in my learndb. 21:50 < Vandal> Nerf Trog then, I'm comparing a god to a god 21:50 < syllogism> !lm * noun=~abandoned the shining turn=1 21:50 < ogaz> !lg * type=god.renounce god=the shining one xl=1 s=char 21:51 < Henzell> 3. [2009-12-19] myuzinn the Ducker (L1 SpPa) abandoned The Shining One on turn 1. (D:1) 21:51 < Henzell> Unknown selector: verb 21:51 <@dpeg> yes, because Trog runs out of steam in the extended endgame, when TSO is rising to full glory :) 21:51 < ogaz> oops 21:51 < eith> indeed 21:51 < ogaz> !lm * type=god.renounce god=the shining one xl=1 s=char 21:51 < Henzell> No milestones for * (type=god.renounce god=the shining one xl=1). 21:51 < eith> different niches 21:51 <+doy> !lm * noun=~abandoned s=noun 21:51 <@dpeg> eith: but another reason to remove TSO from the set of starting gods 21:51 < Vandal> This is one of those things I was talking about, how stuff needs to be viable all game long 21:51 <@dpeg> the first one being: there are too many 21:51 <+doy> Vandal: not true 21:51 < Henzell> 1222 milestones for * (noun=~abandoned): 238x abandoned The Shining One., 192x abandoned Lugonu., 152x abandoned Elyvilon., 119x abandoned Xom., 107x abandoned Okawaru., 103x abandoned Zin., 64x abandoned Makhleb., 56x abandoned Trog., 46x abandoned Sif Muna., 41x abandoned Yredelemnul., 28x abandoned Vehumet., 28x abandoned Kikubaaqudgha., 18x abandoned Nemelex Xobeh., 14x abandoned Beogh., 7x ab... 21:51 <@dpeg> Vandal: and it is not true 21:51 <+kilobyte> !lg * god=The Shining One ktyp=winning skill=Dodging 21:51 <+kilobyte> !lg * god=The Shining One ktyp=winning skill=Armour 21:51 < Henzell> 4. 78291 the Acrobat (L27 HuCj), worshipper of The Shining One, escaped with the Orb and 5 runes on 2009-08-25, with 2230837 points after 124136 turns and 6:03:51. 21:51 < Henzell> No games for * (god=The Shining One ktyp=winning skill=Armour). 21:52 < Vandal> Why should a Berserker automatically be worse at all rune games than a TSO worshipper? 21:52 < eith> Vandal: that verges on impossible 21:52 <@dpeg> Trog is an awesome god, even if you rarely will go 15 runes with him 21:52 < ogaz> Vandal: because he's better at the rest of the game than a TSO worshipper 21:52 < eith> Vandal: because its better early 21:52 <@dpeg> a berserker would rather switch to TSO 21:52 < Vandal> Assuming you can survive the wrath 21:52 <@dpeg> uniform usefulness is a myth 21:53 <@dpeg> and is also not what we mean by "no no-brainers" 21:53 < eith> yes, well thats why his wrath is there =p, cause hes so good early and not later 21:53 < ogaz> besides, summon berserk iron trolls can still kill hell lords 21:53 <+doy> we should make it easier to switch gods 21:53 <@dpeg> doy: yes, we will 21:53 <+kilobyte> !lg * god=The Shining One ktyp=winning s=race 21:53 < syllogism> no 21:53 <+doy> wrath is kinda broken at the moment 21:53 < Henzell> 164 games for * (god=The Shining One ktyp=winning): 66x Mountain Dwarf, 14x High Elf, 14x Minotaur, 13x Human, 13x Hill Orc, 8x Merfolk, 6x Kenku, 6x Centaur, 5x Troll, 4x Deep Dwarf, 3x Naga, 2x Deep Elf, 1x Spriggan, 1x Kobold, 1x Purple Draconian, 1x Red Draconian, 1x Sludge Elf, 1x Hill Dwarf, 1x Pale Draconian, 1x Ogre, 1x Halfling, 1x White Draconian 21:53 < syllogism> we shouldn't 21:53 <@dpeg> doy: easier and less scummable 21:53 <+doy> yes 21:53 <@dpeg> for example, waitign should not help 21:53 < Vandal> I don't see why worshipping a god should be something you can undo easily 21:53 <+doy> tying it into tension would help 21:53 <@dpeg> getting hit on the head in high tension by berserk Trog minions should reduce the counter 21:54 < syllogism> depends when you want to make switching easier 21:54 < syllogism> late game wrath should always be bad 21:54 <+doy> sure 21:54 <@dpeg> syllogism: yes 21:54 <@dpeg> I have a proposal for that. 21:54 <+doy> it should depend on the amount of time you worshipped the god 21:54 <+doy> or how many gifts you've gotten 21:54 <@dpeg> Also, how long you worshipped someone would count. 21:54 <+doy> or something like that 21:54 <@dpeg> doy: yes 21:54 <@dpeg> It's written up somewhere. We should have conducts before. 21:54 <+kilobyte> well, Zin and TSO are gods you often go to just to get the one-time gift 21:55 < Vandal> So, you want people to be able to start as Berserkers and swap to TSO as soon as his ability set is more appropriate? 21:55 < Twinge> dpeg: I was thinking the same thing, never got around to posting it anywhere =) 21:55 <@dpeg> kilobyte: that's the freedom of the good gods, nothing wrong with it, imo 21:55 <@dpeg> Vandal: no, the wrath could still crush you 21:55 < Twinge> If you switch right after joining them, they shouldn't really be bothered too much; you weren't a valuable follower 21:55 <+doy> Vandal: it shouldn't be *quite* as easy as that, but that should be more of a possibility 21:55 < Twinge> This may even vary from god to god 21:56 <@dpeg> the current problems are dual: (a) the wrath is too much if it hits you, so (b) players grind it out 21:56 < syllogism> I don't find the wraths hard to survive right now 21:56 <+kilobyte> dpeg: the promising mace spriggan I have in Shoals right now plans to go Yred->TSO->Makhleb, not exactly good gods 21:56 <@dpeg> syllogism: you are familiar with the ins and out 21:56 < syllogism> except trog i guess 21:56 < Vandal> Swapping gods more easily seems like it is inviting exploitation and abuse 21:56 <@dpeg> kilobyte: <3 21:56 <+doy> Vandal: it depends on the implementation 21:56 < eith> Vandal: currently exploiting and abuse is already a problem, and theres alot of grinding to switch, this is bad 21:56 < syllogism> won't tso cleansing flame you 21:56 < syllogism> and do extra damage due to you worshipping an evil god 21:56 <+doy> switching gods only for the late game should still be quite hard 21:57 <@dpeg> Vandal: the current system is rife with abuse. Just watch next time someone spends 20k turns in Lair in a self-made odd spot. 21:57 <+kilobyte> syllogism: extra damage applies only to undead 21:57 < ogaz> or demonspawn 21:57 < Twinge> Vandal: You'd still suffer wrath if you've been with them for a while. But if say a newbie chooses one god, then changes their mind really quickly, they'll only get a slap on thwe wrist and go about their business with the new god. 21:57 <+doy> in fact, switching gods only for the late game should be harder 21:57 < syllogism> silver bolts hurt more if you worship an evil god, it's a bit weird 21:57 <@dpeg> doy: yes 21:57 < Vandal> Twinge that sounds better 21:57 <+kilobyte> ??the shining one wrath 21:57 < Henzell> the shining one wrath[1/1]: ABANDONMENT: 25 penance. RETRIBUTION: None, unless you are worshipping an evil god (the obvious candidates, plus Beogh). Otherwise, 3/7 d(XL/5) + d2 - 1 Daevas, 2/7 a blast of cleansing flame, 1/7 noise, 1/7 silence. 21:57 <+kilobyte> Hmm, are his Daevas permanent? 21:57 < Vandal> If you're a new worshipper they shouldn't care so much 21:58 <+kilobyte> yes, they are 21:58 < Vandal> and dpeg, it would take a lot of work, yes, but I think it is certainly possible to make every god appealing in some way or another at *most* stages of the game 21:59 <+doy> Vandal: that doesn't address the question of whether or not that's a good thing though 21:59 <+kilobyte> hey... you don't need to get ****** piety to get that eudemon blade/holy scourge from TSO :p 21:59 < Vandal> It is a player choice issue, if a player really likes Trog, they should be allowed to just worship Trog and still have a good shot at exploring the entire game 21:59 < eith> you do 21:59 < eith> already 21:59 <+doy> yeah 21:59 < TGW> yeah 21:59 < Vandal> Then why were you guys just saying he is bad for a 15 runer? 21:59 <+doy> !lg * urune=15 s=god 22:00 < Henzell> 212 games for * (urune=15): 68x The Shining One, 40x Sif Muna, 27x Okawaru, 16x Makhleb, 11x Nemelex Xobeh, 11x , 11x Zin, 6x Trog, 6x Lugonu, 5x Xom, 3x Kikubaaqudgha, 3x Vehumet, 2x Beogh, 2x Elyvilon, 1x Yredelemnul 22:00 < TGW> tso exists 22:00 < eith> no problem you can take any god through the whole game, they just wont be usefull everywhere, all the time 22:00 < ogaz> you're more than capable of allruning behind the power of berserk iron trolls 22:00 <+doy> Vandal: he's harder than other gods 22:00 <+doy> but it's certainly not impossible 22:00 < Vandal> I think TGW had the right answer :/ 22:00 <+kilobyte> Trog isn't a top god for a 15 runer, but he doesn't suck that badly 22:00 < TGW> who the fuck ends a 15-runer atheistically 22:00 < Vandal> When one thing is better, everything else is terrible 22:00 < eith> Vandal: it just means theres better choices 22:00 <+kilobyte> Yredelemnul and Beogh do, though 22:00 < ogaz> !hs * ce 22:00 < TGW> vandal: who said terrible? 22:00 < Henzell> 5363. Kjoery the Executioner (L27 CeBe), worshipper of Trog, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2009-02-19, with 12993655 points after 120791 turns and 15:46:04. 22:00 < purge> wrath could be based on the number of *'s you have 22:00 < ogaz> yeah, yred is useless for allruning 22:00 < syllogism> i never really use tso for my all runers 22:01 < Vandal> It was a statement, not a quote 22:01 < ogaz> all he can do is what, pain mirror? 22:01 < eith> Vandal: only to epic min-maxers 22:01 < syllogism> or havent recently 22:01 < TGW> purge: so that people drain piety before leaving 22:01 < TGW> awful idea 22:01 < Vandal> That isn't my attitude personally, eith 22:01 < purge> thanks 22:01 <@dpeg> Vandal: this is your blind spot. It is by no means good in itself if a feature is useful from start to finish. 22:01 < Vandal> but it is a common one it seems 22:01 < ogaz> Vandal: why are you arguing about extended endgame when you've never been there? 22:02 < Vandal> ogaz: I'm not 22:02 < Vandal> :) 22:02 < purge> i'll be sure to inform you the next time i spot a flaw in your ideas that your awful too 22:04 < CIA-81> kilobyte * rb4f11b1704b7 /crawl-ref/source/decks.cc: Make the Swine card always last at least 1 turn. In fact, let's make that 50% max at the minimum. 22:04 < CIA-81> kilobyte * rf536c278597b /crawl-ref/source/ (34 files): Rename transfor.{cc,h} to transform.{cc,h}. 22:05 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes, down with 8 letter oppression! 22:05 <+kilobyte> should I add a check for negative durations to salvage Marvin's game too? The check would be useless later. 22:06 <@dpeg> hm, don't know 22:06 <@dpeg> what would Darshan say? :) 22:07 <@dpeg> what is the tag to cite a Mantis item in the wiki? 22:07 <+kilobyte> [[Mantis>123]] 22:07 <+doy> [[SFTracker>blah]] 22:08 <+doy> oh, that 22:08 <+doy> yeah 22:09 <@dpeg> thanks 22:09 <@dpeg> the "The giant gecko fails to defend itself." message indicated successful stabs? 22:10 <+kilobyte> successful sleep stabs, yeah. Other types of stabs have different messages. 22:20 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r443ff1cd181d /crawl-ref/source/main.cc: A kludge to salvage Marvin's CDO perma-pig game. Please revert it soon! 22:21 < Ashenzari> dpeg created page Fighting message spam (0.6 target) at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:messagespam 22:21 < purge> how about wrath be based on the highest number of *'s that the player has achieved with a god? 22:21 <@dpeg> kilobyte: good solution 22:21 < Vandal> So, I really like it actually that Angels and Daevas spawn with cool armor and tabbards. That isn't going to change right? 22:21 <@dpeg> would you have a look at that wiki page? 22:22 < Vandal> I mean 22:22 < Vandal> The tile does 22:22 < Vandal> I would like to describe their armor because it is "built in" to the monster's AC and tile, and because aside from having wings they are not that interesting to describe ;o 22:23 < Vandal> but a suit of golden armour, that is something to talk about 22:23 < eith> what if they put on different armour though? or do the tiles change? 22:23 <+doy> dpeg: we do want to show items when using x to view the floor 22:23 < Vandal> they do not spawn with any armor, except angels have Robes which I think is supposed to have something to do with how their tile has a tabbard 22:23 <@dpeg> doy: why? 22:23 <+kilobyte> Vandal: they have good EV but weak AC 22:23 < eith> but they can pick them up 22:23 <@dpeg> ah, with yes, of course 22:23 <+doy> because... that's useful? 22:23 <@dpeg> *with x 22:23 < Vandal> kilobyte they both have 10 AC 22:23 <+doy> yeah 22:23 < Vandal> Angels have 2 more 22:23 <@dpeg> but not when targeting 22:24 < Vandal> because of the robes 22:24 <+kilobyte> 10/13 and 10/20 22:24 <+kilobyte> that's a heavy robe made of plates covered with gold dragon skin! 22:24 < Vandal> For a monster 10 is a decent amount 22:24 < eith> not in the end game 22:25 < Vandal> I'm going to skip Angels description for now and just make a big note about them in the tile wiki 22:26 <+doy> Vandal: descriptions don't have to be "exactly what they look like" 22:26 <+doy> you can be more vague 22:26 <+doy> and really, you should for a lot of things 22:26 <+kilobyte> Vandal: do we need a new page for that? There's already a lot of "improvement wanted" entries on the main tiles page. 22:26 < Vandal> I know, but in this case there isn't much to talk about because they look like humans 22:26 <+doy> if the main point of the description is describing the cool armor, then that's kinda boring 22:26 <+doy> Vandal: make something up! 22:26 <+doy> talk about "blessed by tso" or something 22:27 <@dpeg> Vandal: mention that TSO can avenge killing them 22:27 <+doy> talk about where they came from 22:27 <@dpeg> and that they take their items to heaven 22:27 < Vandal> oh, good call 22:27 <+doy> talk about why they are in the dungeon 22:27 <@dpeg> also, that it is not unheard of to see a daeva and a demon walk side by side 22:27 <@dpeg> enough in-game stuff to make a nice little story even :) 22:27 < Vandal> that seems.. weird :) 22:27 <+kilobyte> they do? You can kill them for gear... 22:27 < ogaz> I saw a blue death summon a daeva once 22:27 < Vandal> haha weird 22:28 <+kilobyte> ogaz: ??? 22:28 <@dpeg> ogaz: perhaps they are just celestial mercenaries and TSO has good pay? 22:29 < Vandal> kilobyte when I went to the wiki /feedback/tiles area there were no existing pages 22:30 <+kilobyte> Vandal: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:tiles:tiles_missing_for_0.6 22:30 < Vandal> oh, under brainstorm? 22:30 < Vandal> the stuff I'm dealing with is existing issues 22:31 < eith> but its for the future, who knows how that will be fixed or whatever 22:32 < Vandal> eith by that logic we could just put everything in brainstorm :/ 22:35 <@dpeg> when you have to say something about god wraths, please do it here 22:35 <@dpeg> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:general#wrath 22:39 <+kilobyte> dpeg: abandoning cannot be lighter than going straight to an opposed god; it's merely a matter of aXypyy instead of pyy 22:39 < Vandal> Does anyone else think it is kind of weird that Angels attack unaligned players, when TSO doesn't punish you for leaving him to join a Neutral god? 22:40 <+doy> angels attacking you isn't punishment 22:40 <+kilobyte> Vandal: they attack worshippers of good gods with non-maxed piety too 22:40 <+doy> a character that never had anything to do with tso also gets attacked by angels 22:40 < Vandal> So TSO doesn't mind you being neutral, just his thugs 22:41 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I just reformulated it. Better now? 22:41 <+kilobyte> dpeg: definitely 22:41 <@dpeg> ok 22:41 < Vandal> Maybe TSO should be different from the other Good gods in that he is over-zealous and WILL punish you for joining any non-good god? 22:42 <@dpeg> Vandal: could be done, yes 22:42 < Vandal> Would fit his "warrior-god" aspect of Good 22:42 < Vandal> Inquisition, burn the heretic 22:42 < Vandal> convert by force of arms :) 22:43 < Vandal> I'll add this to a god wiki 22:44 < Vandal> oh. we 22:44 < Vandal> well 22:44 < Vandal> there is no wiki for TSO yet 22:44 < Vandal> Guess I'll make it 22:49 -!- by [n=rob@g225109252.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:49 <@dpeg> Vandal: your wiki pages are a bit.... sloppy :) 22:49 < Vandal> I'm learning :[ I tried to make the second half of the Halfling one a bit better organized 22:50 < Vandal> and the tiles one 22:50 < Twinge> Is it supposed to be possible to have 2 altars to the same god on the same dungoen floor? 22:50 <@dpeg> yes 22:50 <@dpeg> overly zealous followers were there before you, it seems 22:50 < Vandal> dpeg, you'll see more title headers from now on :) 22:51 <@dpeg> ok 22:52 < Vandal> I wrote in your proposal to remove PAladin as a starter class as well 22:52 <@dpeg> ah! 22:52 < Vandal> Well, remove TSO as a starter god 22:52 < Vandal> I specified it 22:52 <@dpeg> If we're lucky, we can squeeze the class reform into 0.7. 22:53 < Vandal> btw, I can see how people get bogged down now when working on Crawl :) I haven't looked at my Caster Consolidation page in a week 22:53 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:53 < Vandal> I can probably improve it some now though 22:53 <@dpeg> we're not bogged down, we keep going 22:53 < Vandal> well.. maybe bogged down isn't the right term 22:54 < Vandal> distracted ? :D 22:54 < eith> crawl actually moves at a wicked pace 22:54 < Vandal> yeah 22:54 < Vandal> it sure does 22:54 <@dpeg> Vandal: well, (part of) my task is to list the important bits from time to time, so that we don't lose the focus 22:54 < eith> not distracted either, focus on the important :) 22:54 < Vandal> :) 22:55 < Napkin> my HOFi found a overflow altar of TSO - should I convert to him? (trunk) 22:55 <@dpeg> Napkin: how early? 22:55 <@dpeg> and probably no 22:56 < Vandal> I'll put in a link to Eronarn's FR about removing the EV penalty from the player using Halo 22:56 < Napkin> D4 22:56 <@dpeg> Napkin: TSO is not an attractive early game god 22:56 <@dpeg> you might be better off with Ely from wherever the Temple is 22:56 < Napkin> no experiments, just want to play something reasonable 22:57 <@dpeg> Elyvilon is reasonable :) 22:57 <@dpeg> and not an experiment either 22:57 < Twinge> Should shafts even be capable of generating on Lair:8? When I walked over one, it dissapeared in a puff of logic :P 22:57 < Napkin> due suggested Yredelemnul 22:57 < Vandal> She is the very essence of reasonable! Can't we all just get along? 22:57 <@dpeg> Twinge: no, that is a bug 22:57 <+doy> heh 22:57 <@dpeg> Napkin: Yrdy is a good god, especially early on 22:57 <@dpeg> nothing wrong with Y 22:58 <+kilobyte> well, the EV issue is orthogonal with current usage, since no EV chars in their right mind use TSO for anything more than starting with long blades or getting that weapon blessed 22:58 < Twinge> dpeg: I'll note that I warped to lair:8 directly in Debug mode as I'm testing something, so that may or may not have affected it? 22:58 < Napkin> thanks 22:58 <+doy> there was a bug report from a little bit ago of someone noticing a shaft trap on d:27 22:58 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes 22:58 <@dpeg> Twinge: no, I think there is a genuine bug 22:58 <+kilobyte> perhaps we can just decide that and be done with the issue? 22:58 < Twinge> K. I'll mantis it. 23:01 <+doy> Twinge: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=145 23:01 <+doy> probably doesn't need a separate ticket 23:02 <@dpeg> kilobyte: on what issue? 23:02 < Twinge> Oh, good catch. 23:03 <+doy> dpeg: pretty sure confused players can use wands 23:03 <+doy> with a random direction 23:03 <+doy> as in - it targets a random tile in los 23:04 <+kilobyte> dpeg: halo and angels/player's EV 23:05 <+kilobyte> and same for many other issues, they rot for ages when they could be decided yes or no even by a coin flip 23:06 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes, I agree. 23:06 * kilobyte hates unknown potions of berserk, they took me changing the API of 87191597 functions :( 23:06 <@dpeg> Can go ahead. Just make sure to mention the Mantis item number in the commit. 23:07 <@dpeg> doy: oh, would you add that to the report? 23:07 <+doy> dpeg: sure, i just don't have my mantis password on me at the moment 23:08 <@dpeg> what, your password is more complicated than "password"? Bugger 23:08 <+doy> (: 23:10 < CIA-81> kilobyte * ree183b121218 /crawl-ref/source/ (8 files): Make unknown potions of rage override clarity. Drugs > being focused > anger. 23:11 < Napkin> gee.. cycling with "(" and ")" is somehow broken, right? 23:11 <+doy> Napkin: yes 23:11 <+doy> in my experience anyway 23:12 <+doy> dpeg: oh, i also do like the idea of the "(Firing: " line in spell targeting including the name of the spell 23:12 < Napkin> z ( s ) x ( y 23:13 < Vandal> I really liked the idea of Paladin as a class and starting as a holy warrior 23:14 < Napkin> actually.. it seems like that ")" cycles types, while "(" cycles alphabetically increasing 23:14 < Vandal> I just wish TSO wasn't so bad at low piety levels 23:14 < Vandal> Like, why not make his shield skill usable at the start, like Trog's Berserk is? It is a weaker ability even.. 23:15 < ortoslon> Linley speaks: http://www.indiegames.com/features/index.php?c=sa&y=2009&gid=4 23:15 < ortoslon> "Maybe I'll even write another roguelike! Or a roguelike-shmup. That would be interesting." 23:16 < eith> ooh, fancy 23:16 <+doy> not quite sure how that would work 23:16 <+doy> (: 23:19 < Vandal> Even if TSO wasn't a starting god, I still think his shield buff isn't strong enough to require as much time as it does to get access to it 23:20 < eith> so you have a bit of piety buffer 23:21 < eith> it only like a level or two 23:21 <+kilobyte> perhaps we can really degrade cleansing flame and increase the cost of Daevas? These two abilities are useful mostly in demon/undead land. 23:22 < mr0t> i was playing a weird roguelike yesterday 23:22 < mr0t> someone made a roguelike adaptation of Mega Man, the original NES game 23:22 <+doy> nifty 23:22 < mr0t> even had music! 23:22 < CIA-81> kilobyte * rfcc750d580ea /crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc fight.cc): Don't reduce the EV of a halo's source (angels/daevas/player) (Mantis 323) 23:23 < mr0t> but having a turn-based non-puzzle platformer at my hands, I felt weird, like the game was being paused every second and then unpaused (like the old 'slow mode' joysticks could do) 23:23 < Twinge> mr0t: Now I'm hearing the pause sound effect go through my mind on loop 23:24 <+doy> mr0t: i was actually surprised at how much doomrl didn't feel like that 23:24 <+doy> should give the megaman one a shot 23:24 < TGW> I had no idea turn-based platformer was a valid thing 23:24 < mr0t> heh 23:24 < TGW> may be forced to try that 23:25 < mr0t> yeah, doomRL feels pretty close in pacing to the original doom 23:25 < mr0t> there was also a Castlevania RL, but it was a little more classic-RL in design, like overhead instead of side view (as in the mega man RL) 23:26 < mr0t> lately I've been digging this game called Prospector, roguelike of course, but it reminds me way more of "New Horizons: Uncharted Waters" for the SNES/Genesis than it does any roguelike 23:26 < mr0t> only it takes place in space. but you still make money by selling your map data and info on lifeforms you encounter 23:27 < mr0t> also it's under active development 23:27 < mr0t> unfortunately it's written in some language I can't grok, I think some kinda basic derivative 23:27 < mr0t> not like I'd be able to do shit if it were in a language I knew :/ 23:31 <+kilobyte> blargh, that new Linley's game makes wine crash my X (nvidia drivers) 23:31 < Ashenzari> Sonja's curare needles do nothing. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=357) by Kyrris 23:32 < Vandal> mr0t! that sounds amazing 23:32 < Vandal> the Megaman one :o 23:33 < Napkin> I saw Sonja's curare needles slow and poison herself when I was wearing a shield of reflection 23:33 -!- N78291 [n=null@130-127-45-6.chouse.resnet.clemson.edu] has joined ##crawl-dev 23:34 <+doy> nice 23:34 <+doy> (: 23:34 <+kilobyte> they work for me... 23:35 <+kilobyte> and Napkin, please hack my game to give my char such a shield, been looking for one everywhere :p 23:35 <+kilobyte> (jk about cheating) 23:35 < Twinge> Monster Experience Tweaks are about ready to go - http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:monster:experience 23:36 < purge> they work for me too in a wizmode test 23:36 <+doy> Twinge: post to the mailing list 23:36 < Twinge> doy: I did. Or tried to at least. 23:36 < Napkin> :) 23:36 < Twinge> It went under moderation a day and a half ago 23:36 <+doy> oh, right 23:36 <+doy> forgot about that 23:36 <+doy> (: 23:37 <+kilobyte> Napkin: on CDO, there's a guy named Marvinsomething with a char that's turned into a permanent pig. Care to update? 23:38 < Napkin> lol? 23:38 < Napkin> i turned back into dwarven form lately 23:38 < Napkin> broken since then? 23:39 < Napkin> oh.. swine card? 23:41 < Eifel> hmm strange exclusions. You climb downwards. ^M Level annotation: 202 exclusions^M 23:41 <+kilobyte> it could set the duration to 0, which results in an infinite duration 23:41 <+kilobyte> (well, 2^32/10 turns infinite) 23:42 <+doy> Eifel: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=355 23:42 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2073-gfcc750d (15.2) 23:42 < Napkin> Hey Eifel ;) 23:43 < Eifel> Hey Napkin 23:44 < Eifel> Ahh issue already know :D 23:46 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53 < Vandal> dpeg: re: reduced magic levels on Ha page, it is a new concept that I think could be used on Mi / Tr and other poor spellcasting races to drive the point home in a way besides just having bad apts. Bad apts can be overcome with farming, -9 spell levels is unavoidable 23:53 <+doy> what exactly do you gain by overcoming bad apts with farming? 23:53 < Vandal> and -9 spell levels isn't really a big deal when you can get what, 54 from Spellcasting alone? 23:54 < Vandal> doy: you make a "bad" magic user good as soon as they have the skill levels 23:54 < Vandal> It isn't like just because you're a Troll you can't cast spells as good as other races once you've trained the skills 23:54 < Vandal> as well as 23:54 < Vandal> -good 23:55 <+doy> and this is bad because...? 23:55 < Vandal> I didn't say it is 23:55 < Vandal> I just said this is a new way to differentiate species 23:55 < N78291> trolls are still behind other casters in maxmp 23:56 < Vandal> yup 23:56 < Vandal> They have the same chance of succesfully casting "x", for equal power, once the skills are farmed though 23:57 < Vandal> their spell disadvantage is temporary besides the MP pool 23:57 < eith> and the int 23:57 <+doy> Vandal: it's great that you want to fix this, but we should determine whether it's actually something that needs fixing first 23:58 <+doy> i don't really see how it is 23:58 < Vandal> I didn't say other races have to use it :) it is just something I am throwing out there 23:58 < eith> Vandal: they wont have even remotely near the same power, cause their int is terrible 23:58 < Vandal> They can put poitns in Int like everyone else 23:59 < Twinge> Uh, some. 23:59 < Twinge> They started with significantly less 23:59 < Vandal> you can wear int gear 23:59 < Vandal> Gastranok's hat fits on a troll, right? 23:59 < cbus> do ability failure get affected by blade hands? 23:59 < Vandal> Gastronok