00:00 <+due> @??rkshasa
00:00 < Gretell> No Habla Espanol (unknown monster: "rkshasa")
00:00 <+due> @??rakshasa
00:00 < Gretell> rakshasa (R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 30-80 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 20 | Flags: demonic, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(133), poison | XP: 1070 | Sp: rakshasa summon, blink, invisibility, teleport self.
00:00 <+due> @??mara
00:00 <+kilobyte> sorear: another issue to think of, maps and descriptions should be read-only, instead of rw for all users
00:00 < Gretell> Mara (R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: demonic, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(213), elec++, poison | XP: 7532 | Sp: mislead, mara summon, b.lightning, player ghost, pain, teleport self.
00:00 <+due> Hm. 
00:01 <+due> kilobyte: What, .des vault files?
00:01 <@dpeg> kilobyte: Hi!
00:01 <+kilobyte> dpeg: meow!
00:02 <+kilobyte> due: currently, in a multi-user install, .des vaults are read only, but whenever they are changed, they get compiled and saved in a place everyone can write to
00:02 <+due> Ah.
00:02 <+due> Yeah, multi-user ability to update .des files would be nice.
00:02 <+due> greensnark: Is that doable if they were in a database?
00:03 <+greensnark> Actually only admin should be able to change .des files
00:03 <@dpeg> kilobyte: intentional that spears get stabbing bonus now?
00:03 <+kilobyte> so it's easy to fuck up other players, or even hack them since sqlite is not resilient (nor supposed to be) to intentionally corrupted data files
00:03 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:04 <+kilobyte> dpeg: tier 3 (= long blades), it was discussed in some FR several months ago.  I then added tridents during a misunderstanding with sorear.
00:05 <+due> I still don't think it makes sense.
00:05 <+due> And on that note, time to go. Ciao.
00:06 <+kilobyte> due: er, why would users other than root be able to screw other people?  Even if we skip the possibility of hacking their accounts.
00:06 <+kilobyte> should be able to
00:06 <+greensnark> due: This is for installs, not Crawl development
00:06 <+due> kilobyte: No, spear stabbing.
00:06  * greensnark goes off to bed.
00:07 <+due> greensnark: And yes, Rax has said that it's impossible to update the .des files on a running crawl install.
00:07 <@dpeg> nights
00:07 <@dpeg> well, the idea that all suitable small weapons allow some stabbing is okay
00:07 <@dpeg> So I can see that for clubs and hand axes. But spears?
00:08 <+due> I find it more likely that your spear is going to get stuck in someone's rib cage than stab them.
00:09 <+kilobyte> it's only tier 3 bonus, same as for big swords.  But yeah, this may be somehow questionable, let me find that FR.
00:10 <+sorear> kilobyte: the security issue is moot since both cao and cdo run all games under the same UID
00:10 <+doy> i think it's a confusion between different meanings of "stab", probably
00:10 <@dpeg> doy: in German, "Stab" is a word. It translates to "rod" :)
00:10 <+due> We probably need to explicitly define stabbing somewhere, from a crawl stand-point.
00:10 <+doy> (:
00:10 <+kilobyte> sorear: server play is not "multi-user" in the OS sense of the word
00:10 <+due> What sort of action does it involve, what sort of weapon, etc.
00:10 <+sorear> kilobyte: if I subvert a game, why bother with planting corrupted databases when I can just use ptrace
00:11 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:11 < elly> isn't stabbing what happens when you use a piercing weapon against a foe that is unawares?
00:11 <+doy> i mean, in the generic sense of the word, spears do stab things
00:11 <+doy> but i don't think that's what we mean by a "stabbing bonus", necessarily
00:11 <+due> elly: 
00:11 <@dpeg> I thought that "backstabbing" always refers to daggers.
00:11 <+due> elly: Yeah, I meant the bonus.
00:12 <+due> dpeg: Yes, you sneak up on someone and stab them with a concealed weapon, etc. 
00:12 <+kilobyte> sorear: you can't ptrace setgid processes
00:12 <+doy> dpeg: right, that's the other main way to use it
00:12 <+doy> it being the word 'stab'
00:12 <@dpeg> due: hard to conceal a spear :)
00:12 <+doy> and you can't really "backstab" someone with a spear
00:12 <+doy> (:
00:13 <+due> dpeg: But easy to conceal a small cosh or (maybe) an axe.
00:13 <+sorear> kilobyte: dgamelaunch crawl processes aren't setgid
00:13 <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."
00:13 <+sorear> If someone isn't paying attention, you can aim very well.
00:13 <+sorear> Good aim helps a LOT with daggers
00:13 <@dpeg> I agree
00:13 <+sorear> Not so much with 50 pound clubs
00:14 -!- due changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."
00:14 <@dpeg> sorear: as far as I know, daggers, stilettos etc. have been used in medieval combat against very heavy mails
00:14 <@dpeg> to squeeze them into tiny holes
00:14 < TGW> on a slightly related note, I'm not sure what it adds restricting coshing to clubs
00:14 <+due> TGW: Accuracy. 
00:14 <@dpeg> to me, cosh = cosine hyperbolicus
00:15 <+sorear> yes
00:15 <+due> TGW: There's a difference between hitting someone in the right part of the head and dazing them, and smashing someone's head to pieces.
00:15 <+due> I'm going, btw.
00:15 <+due> Back in 15.
00:15 <@dpeg> cheers
00:15 < TGW> sure, I understand your flavor
00:15 < TGW> but then there's the competing "you just hit them in the head with 50 pounds and they're not dazed at all?"
00:15 <+sorear> due: shouldn't a successful stab with a morning star be "instant kill regardless of HP for headed opponents", then
00:16 < TGW> and compounding that is the gameplay question, "is this more interesting?"
00:16 < elly> if something with a head is asleep, and you have a morning star, you should get an instant kill
00:16 <+sorear> also, shouldn't the size of the head factor in?  I bet I could cosh Antaeus with a giant spiked club
00:16 < elly> the chunky salsa rule applies here
00:16 <+doy> well, from that perspective, why does stabbing someone with a long sword do significantly less damage than with a dagger
00:17 <+doy> trying to get too much realism here is probably just going to make things more confusing
00:17 <@dpeg> doy: and broken
00:17 < TGW> things will not break if ningstars/hammers/etc can cosh
00:18 <+kilobyte> sorear: dgamelaunch is a "single user" install from the OS' perspective
00:18 < TGW> one-handed rigit maces
00:18 < TGW> rigid*
00:19 <+sorear> a morningstar isn't a rigid mace
00:19 <@dpeg> so an eveningstar probably neither
00:20 <+sorear> ===~~~0
00:20 <+doy> sorear: yeah it is
00:20 <+kilobyte> a morningstar is a loaded word
00:20 <+kilobyte> it can mean either a mace or a flail
00:20 <+kilobyte> usually means the former
00:20 <+doy> i've only ever heard of it as a mace
00:20 <+doy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star_(weapon)
00:21 < TGW> "A mace covered in spikes."
00:21 < TGW> ingame description
00:21 < TGW> mace: A long handle with a heavy lump on one end.
00:21 < TGW> so we can conclude that a morningstar is a long handle with a heavy lump covered in spikes
00:22 <@dpeg> ===~~~*
00:22 <+doy> Additionally, the English terms "morning star" (a rigid haft topped with a spiked ball), and even "mace" (a bludgeoning weapon similar to a morning star), which properly refer to non-chained weapons, have also been used loosely (and incorrectly) to refer to the military flail.
00:24 <+Keskitalo> I wonder if TSO should object to slowing (intelligent) monsters. You're pretty much in control when you slow monsters?
00:24 < TGW> dpeg: uh, you might be thinking of a spiked flail
00:24 <+kilobyte> fortunately both =====* and ===~~~* have the same properties when Crawl is concerned
00:24 -!- Antagonist [n=Landon@196-209-77-128-rndf-esr-5.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [""True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country." ~Kurt Vonnegut"]
00:25 < TGW> ok, so
00:25 < TGW> "Like a mace, but with a length of chain between the handle and the lump of metal."
00:25 < TGW> crawl maces do not have chains
00:25 < TGW> ningstars are described by analogy to maces
00:25 <@dpeg> TGW: well, I am only referring to what I learned to know as "Morgenstern" when I was a child
00:25 < TGW> your version of a ningstar is actually a spiked flail, which is a valid weapon with a different description
00:26 <+doy> there is an anonymous woodcut depicting a knight carrying a rather simple morning star with spikes mounted in an asymmetrical pattern, as well as a flail equipped with a single spiked ball[citation needed], known in German as a "Kettenmorgenstern" (literally chain-morningstar) which is technically a military flail.
00:27 <@dpeg> doy: interesting
00:30 <+kilobyte> our tile is of the =====* variety
00:31 <+sorear> our in-game description of morningstar is a spiked mace
00:31 <+sorear> I was wrong
00:31 < TGW> what does eveningstar look like?
00:31 <+sorear> eveningstars should not have tiles :(
00:31 <@dpeg> TGW: we have no troubles with eveningstars
00:31 <+doy> it's the opposite of a morningstar
00:31 < TGW> it's the mold for a morninstar?
00:31 <+kilobyte> (not that tiles mean anything, the tile for triple swords is utter nonsense, as if someone didn't know the weapon and understood the word _literally_)
00:31 < TGW> that you hit things with?
00:31 <+sorear> triple swords, too
00:31 <+doy> (eveningstars are made up by crawl)
00:32 < TGW> doy: yeah :P
00:32 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, there's some stuff that doesn't really work with non-abstract graphics like that..
00:32 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:32 < TGW> I mean, is there an eveningstar tile?
00:32 <+kilobyte> speaking of triple swords, they're such a rare concept that I really think we should rename them
00:32 < syllogism> of course
00:33 <@dpeg> I imagine a triple sword to have a profile of -<
00:33 < TGW> what does it look like
00:33 < TGW> kilobyte: well, you have to outdo the great sword
00:33 < syllogism> a yellow morning star
00:33 < TGW> "spectacular sword"
00:33 < TGW> syllogism: aw
00:33 <+kilobyte> dpeg: it's -<---
00:34 <+kilobyte> the name stems from the fact that the crossguard resembles small side swords
00:34 < TGW> are morningstars purple?
00:34 < syllogism> grayish I think
00:34 < TGW> awww
00:34 <+doy> kilobyte: interesting, i had assumed that triple swords were just made up too
00:34 <+kilobyte> TGW: in our tiles, morningstars are gray, eveningstars are yellow
00:35 <@dpeg> kilobyte: cool
00:35 <+sorear> I thought that double swords were shaped like double lightsabers
00:35 < TGW> !won cv=4.1
00:35 < Henzell> No games for TGW (cv=4.1).
00:35 <+sorear> and triple swords were a topological impossibility
00:35 < TGW> !won * cv=4.1
00:35 < Henzell> No games for * (cv=4.1).
00:35 <+kilobyte> sorear: heh
00:35 <+sorear> that was added to Crawl as a joke
00:35 < TGW> how do you do that
00:35 < syllogism> you dont
00:35 <@dpeg> I like eveningstars.
00:35 < TGW> aw
00:36 <+kilobyte> realism-wise, they would have double the weight (and weight is hugely detrimental in sword combat), for maybe +10% damage
00:36 <@dpeg> I liked the joke already when I was a child =)
00:36 <+kilobyte> or actually, smaller damage since the blades would penetrate shallower
00:36 <@dpeg> kilobyte: much rather I'd axe the katana than the triple sword
00:37 < syllogism> yes
00:37 <@dpeg> triple sword and eveningstar are somewhat silly humour
00:37 <+kilobyte> I mean, rename not axe, for realism and sanity's sake
00:37 <@dpeg> katana are a bad trope
00:37 < syllogism> triple sword is a magical sword
00:37 <+doy> KatanasAreJustBetter
00:37 <@dpeg> also, Nethack had katanas :)
00:37 <@dpeg> even has
00:38 <+doy> (speaking of tropes)
00:38 < syllogism> "A magical weapon with three great razor-sharp blades"
00:38 <+kilobyte> ??long blades[2]
00:38 < Henzell> long blades[2/2]: [hands](Dam,Acc,Delay): Falchion (8, 2, 13); Long (10, 1, 14); Scimitar (11, -1, 14); Demon (13, -1, 15); Katana[1.5] (13, 2, 13); Double[1.5] (15, -2, 16); Great[2] (16, -3, 17); Triple[2] (19,-5,18)
00:38 <+kilobyte> katanas have no real reason to exist
00:38 <@dpeg> yes
00:39 <+kilobyte> and double swords suffer from the same issue as triple ones
00:39 <+kilobyte> and falchions, long swords, (perhaps demon blades), great swords and triple swords are all double swords
00:40 <+kilobyte> although there are two meanings of the word
00:40 <@dpeg> kilobyte: there was a time when Crawl had three blade skills :)
00:40 <+doy> crawl should have 1 blade skill
00:40 < TGW> which one was that?
00:40 < TGW> the third
00:41 <+sorear> Katanas are completely out of place.  A bit of insanity makes Crawl what it is...
00:41 <+kilobyte> "double sword" can mean a sword with two edges (ie, European type), or a hand-and-a-half one
00:41 < TGW> what does the tile look like?
00:41 <+kilobyte> TGW: like a bad Star Wars LSD trip
00:41 <+sorear> TGW: 4.1 doesn't actually record games, so !lg can't access it
00:42 < TGW> ok
00:42 <+sorear> TGW: SK_UNUSED_2  // was: SK_GREAT_SWORDS
00:43 < TGW> containing... great swords?
00:44 <+sorear> HE had 115 great swords apt in 2.7.0f
00:45 <@dpeg> sorear: is that skill unused or completely gone?
00:45 <@dpeg> sorear: agree re katanas
00:45 <@dpeg> doy: no, the diversion between SBl and LBl is okay, imo
00:45 <+sorear> Completely gone
00:46 <+sorear> A placeholder was left in the enum, but I think even that's dead now
00:46 <@dpeg> gppd
00:46 <+doy> dpeg: i disagree, short blades are not really viable as long term weapons, and are only likely to get moreso
00:46 <+doy> but it's not urgent
00:46 <@dpeg> doy: "only likely to get moreso"?
00:47 <+sorear> huh, 2.7.0f had classes
00:47 <+sorear> the 'O' command causes you to go berserk if your class is 8 or you're wearing amulet 35
00:47 <@dpeg> sorear: did Trog exist?
00:48 <+doy> dpeg: speed and slaying bonuses are the only things keeping short blades viable at the moment
00:48 <+doy> as a melee weapon anyway
00:48 <@dpeg> doy: okay. But why do you predict it's getting worse in the future?
00:48 <+doy> dpeg: well, the eventual goal is to redo how slaying works, and remove speed from all non-randarts, isn't it?
00:49 <+sorear> dpeg: Trog has been in the Crawl canon since very early - the eponymous fixedart was in the first public release.  It doesn't look possibly to worship him in this version though
00:49 <@dpeg> doy: but we always have SBl in our minds
00:49 <+doy> i mean, i approve of both of those things in terms of overall game balance
00:49 <+doy> but they will mean that short blades just won't really work in the end game
00:49 <@dpeg> doy: it is okay if they only work with some support
00:49 <@dpeg> magic or god
00:50 < syllogism> okawaru :P
00:50 <@dpeg> syllogism: why not, if future Okawaru can do, too?
00:50 < syllogism> yes
00:50 <@dpeg> or a god who supports stabbing
00:50 <+doy> my point is just that if we could keep short blades, but keep them as part of the progression towards long blades (like hand axe -> broad axe, etc), things would be better overall
00:50 <@dpeg> and magic, of course
00:51 <+sorear> or needles!
00:51 <+doy> short blades should keep stabbing and such
00:51 <@dpeg> doy: sure, could be done. I am just not convinced it's necessary.
00:51 <+doy> yeah, i'm not entirely sure either
00:51 <@dpeg> doy: of course, if we axe enough blade weapons...
00:51 <+doy> but it sounds good to me now
00:51 <+doy> (:
00:51 <+doy> and this is 0.8 stuff at least
00:51 <@dpeg> yes
00:52 <@dpeg> !seen drpraetor
00:52 < Henzell> I last saw DrPraetor at Tue Jan  5 18:06:05 2010 UTC (5h 45m 58s ago) quitting with message Read error: 113 (No route to host).
00:52 <@dpeg> no progress on the AC front :(
00:52 <+kilobyte> dpeg: I reviewed the formulas, and at least the part about equating enchantment with base AC is utterly broken
00:52 <@dpeg> If one of you sees Samual, could you ask him about the AC mail I wrote? Any answer is okay and much better than no answer.
00:53 <@dpeg> kilobyte: review = in the FR?
00:53 <@dpeg> somebody replied with numbers, but they were far off.
00:53 <+kilobyte> dpeg: since once you train the Armour skill, get boots/helmet/cloak/gloves and a bunch of EA scrolls, you can switch to a robe and keep >75% of AC while getting full dodging and spellcasting
00:54 <@dpeg> kilobyte: you are talking about whether Enchantment are inside or outside of the brackets?
00:54 <+kilobyte> and that's for normal races, with centaurs and nagas having no reasons except for skill training
00:54 <+kilobyte> yeah
00:54 <@dpeg> (X+Ench)*Y   vs   X*Y + Ench ?
00:55 <+sorear> religion stuff was extremely skeletal in 2.70, it was not possible to worship any god
00:55 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I already agreed to move Ench out again
00:55 <@dpeg> that was a minor bit
00:55 <+sorear> the standard 12 were in, except Trog was missing and Lugafu the Hairy was in its place
00:55 < Vandal>  that o
00:55 < Vandal> mt
00:56 <@dpeg> kilobyte: the motivation was that enchantments would ideally be on an equal footing with base AC, but as you found out, that's not sensible
00:56 <@dpeg> sorear: Lugafu?
00:56 <@dpeg> If I had known that, we'd used this for Lucy.
00:57 -!- neunon [n=neunon@unaffiliated/neunon] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:57 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v neunon] by ChanServ
00:57 <@dpeg> neunon: hi!
00:57 <+neunon> ohey
00:57 < syllogism> 6Jurubetut - Fire
00:57 < syllogism> 7Vuhimeti - Ice
00:57 <@dpeg> Linley did like the U vowel :)
00:57 <+kilobyte> dpeg: Could you point out which version of the AC proposal is the current one?
00:58 <@dpeg> kilobyte: it is the ACv4 one. But unfortunately things progressed a bit more in emails with Samuel. This is why I cannot simply give the formulas to someone else :/
00:59 <+sorear> hehehe, turning off skills was disabled for Fighting, Stabbing, Shields, and T&D
00:59 < syllogism> weird
00:59 <+kilobyte> dpeg: right... so we need you to either drag him here or release the s3kr1t data :)
01:00 <@dpeg> kilobyte: sent you a mail
01:00 <@dpeg> kilobyte: he is here quite often
01:01 <@dpeg> the next step of the AC is not so evil: change formulas and (that's probably more work) list all changes in the commit message, so we can refer to it later.
01:01 <+sorear> add_skill was declared in four different headers
01:04 <+sorear> great swords and triple swords used skill 3 in 2.72
01:05 <+sorear> a > b | c > d | e > f
01:05  * sorear looks up the relative precedence of > and |
01:05 <+due> I return
01:06 <+sorear> great swords, long swords, and short swords crosstrained with each other
01:06 <+sorear> except it only worked one way; great sword skill is non-transferrable
01:08 <@dpeg> due: welcome back
01:09 < syllogism> heteroy doing shoals again
01:10 < ogaz> was nondescript stone ever nerfed, by the way?
01:11 < Vandal> btw, does anyone else think rings of regen should auto-id?  It is pretty obvious
01:13 <+sorear> +1
01:14 <@dpeg> ogaz: no, not yet but will come
01:14 <+sorear> but I'm a minigame hater
01:14 <+due> They don't already self-ID? +1 here.
01:14 < Vandal> I'm wearing one right now and healing every 2 steps w/ 40 hp max
01:14 <@dpeg> Vandal: yes, but I am more concerned with making them only hunger when in use.
01:14 < Vandal> At least I assume this is one
01:14 <+sorear> greensnark: what if the high scores were changed to be a proper db instead of a 500KB flat text file?  Rewriting that is probably a big part of the 1s lag whenever I die
01:14 < Vandal> would be nice dpeg but that isn't really hard to manage
01:14 < syllogism> dpeg: that's already done
01:14 < Vandal> it is?
01:14 < Vandal> oh neat
01:14 <@dpeg> syllogism: sorry
01:15 < syllogism> greensnark informed me yesterday or was it today
01:15 < syllogism> and someone informed him :P
01:15 < Vandal> want me to make a ticket for it?
01:15 <@dpeg> sure
01:15 <@dpeg> no id for DD?
01:15 <+due> dpeg: Or, "Your skin tingles for a moment."
01:16 < ogaz> dpeg: or bloodless Vp?
01:16 < Vandal> would this be an Interface Improvement?
01:17 < Vandal> eh submitted as one
01:18 < Ashenzari> Ring of Regen auto-id please (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=342) by Vandal
01:18 < Vandal> just for doy I only capitalized the item
01:18 <+doy> yay
01:18 <+sorear> Vandal++ learning
01:20 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit ["sleep"]
01:20 <+Keskitalo> The tide looks cool.
01:20 <+due> the tides are *Awesome*.
01:21 <+Keskitalo> More plants too I see. :)
01:21 < Vandal> oh jeeze
01:21 < Vandal> mt
01:24 <+Keskitalo> @?? ice beast
01:24 < Gretell> ice beast (I) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 5(cold) | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(20), cold+++, poison, asphyx | Vul: fire | XP: 121.
01:26 < Vandal> What is the reletive effectiveness of throwing daggers vs. darts in the new system? due?
01:26 <+Keskitalo> I wonder if this would be a cool idea for a monster spell: alerts nearby monsters and casts swiftness on them. (I was thinking a "fish calling" spell in Shoals but could work otherwhere too).
01:26 <+Keskitalo> Also hi due! :)
01:27 < Vandal> I wans't picking up daggers because I'm so used to finding hundreds of darts and I thought I'd give them a try
01:27 < Vandal> but now this game is very light on darts :P
01:31 <+sorear> Keskitalo: Are there any kinds of Cool Savefile Metadata that tiles could use?
01:32 <+Keskitalo> sorear: Best ask Enne.
01:32 <+sorear> ok
01:32 <+kilobyte> sorear: the .tdl files
01:32 <+due> Keskitalo: Fish calling <#
01:32 < syllogism> heteroy splatting again :P
01:32 < syllogism> or maybe not
01:32 <+Keskitalo> due: It's like natural summoning!
01:33 <+sorear> kilobyte: re. security - I think we should follow Angband's lead and deprecate 'true' multiuser installs, instead, OS-wide Crawl installs should store data in ~/.crawl/{saves,morgue}
01:33 <+due> Keskitalo: That is awesome!
01:33 <+Keskitalo> due: Could theoretically work well with tides, if you can get tidally locked in then you'd hate that spell. :)
01:34 <+kilobyte> actually, what's the reason .tdl are not generated (or generated empty) in console builds?  You can use the same save in both builds...
01:34 <+sorear> Keskitalo: minor nit - swiftness won't work on fish
01:34 <+Keskitalo> How come?
01:35 <+due> Swiftness doesn't work in water.
01:35 <+sorear> swiftness is hacked to fizzle if you're wet
01:35 <+sorear> if you cast swiftness out of water, then enter, the enchantment has no effect
01:35 <+Keskitalo> Aww.
01:35 <+doy> can it be hacked again to only not work if you're wet and not a water creature?
01:35 <+kilobyte> sorear: do you mean, dropping setgidness?  That's a good idea.  It would drop common scores and ghosts, but they're of fringe use only already.
01:35 <+sorear> actually, I don't remember if I implemented that when I was doing Swiftness for monsters
01:35 <+sorear> kilobyte: yes, dropping setgid
01:36 <+due> sorear: You didn't, actually.
01:36 <+sorear> I better fix that before somebody meets Gastronok on a wet level
01:36 <+due> Heh.
01:36 < ogaz> why doesn't swiftness work in water, by the way?
01:37 <+sorear> kilobyte: I guess I'm going to need to learn what tdl does
01:37 <+due> It's an air spell.
01:37 <+Keskitalo> Maybe it's designed to not help against water slowing you. (But then there's Levitation right next to it, so..)
01:38 <+due> Keskitalo: I think so, actually.
01:39 <+kilobyte> sorear: another idea would be to make ghosts use text files, and validate them nuking badly OOD ghosts on the way
01:40 <+sorear> badly OOD ghosts?
01:40 <+kilobyte> the validation would ensure people don't stuff forged ghosts
01:40 <+doy> how would that work
01:40 <+sorear> yeah
01:41 <+kilobyte> I mean, if you kill your xl27 char on D:3, it's pointless to have it appear
01:41 <+Keskitalo> Sounds good to me too.
01:42 < nrook> why not just shove it deeper in the dungeon?
01:42 < nrook> ooh, put ood ghosts in tomb!
01:42 <+kilobyte> with no setgid, we drop the pretense of DRMing the game so folks would be able to produce fake ghosts
01:43 <+sorear> yes, but they can only terrorize themselves
01:43 <+sorear> so...
01:43 <+kilobyte> I mean, if there's any limited sharing of scores and bones on a multi-user site
01:44 <+doy> well, they'd be able to fake bones files no matter what
01:45 <+doy> the only thing you can really do is just restrict which bones files to load based on ghost strength
01:45 <+doy> which might be a reasonable thing to do, but isn't really solving the problem of "fake ghosts" or "validation" or anything
01:45 <+kilobyte> I mean, we can put bounds on the ghost's stats
01:46 <+doy> we already do, don't we?
01:46 <+due> Yes, we do.
01:46 <+kilobyte> only sanity checks
01:46 <+due> it'll reduce ghost stats if they exceed a certain constant
01:46 <+sorear> why exactly does Crawl use stdio.h
01:47 <+doy> sorear: sprintf, probably
01:47 <+sorear> it's also using fopen for saves
01:47 <+sorear> and FILE and fwrite and fclose and all that junk
01:47 <+kilobyte> you can still get a xl27 ghost on D:3 with 50 damage 400 hp 60 EV fire storm+torment
01:47 <+due> It also uses fopen for tests and some debug statements (uniques and Xom stats).
01:48 <+doy> shrug, what's the alternative? iostreams?
01:48 <+sorear> it would be really sweet if we were using some kind of extensible object layer for writing saves
01:48 <+sorear> then I could just switch out the file streams for ones that use zlib and sqlite
01:49 <+sorear> doy: Does iostreams secretly suck and I've just not heard of it?  Crawl seems to avoid it even in places where it would obviously help
01:49 <+doy> i hate it with a passion
01:49  * due hates it with a passionfruit.
01:49 <+doy> i mean, there are certainly advantages to it, but the interface to it is just gross
01:50  * sorear thinks it sucks less than stdio
01:51 <+doy> i don't mind stdio
01:52 <+doy> wow, aquamancers are scary
01:52 < syllogism> tso saved heteroy and he almost drowned due to aquamancer's wave
01:52 <+doy> tso has life saving now?
01:52 <+sorear> all the good gods do
01:53 <+doy> when did that happen?
01:53 <+sorear> dunno, a year or so
01:53 <+doy> huh
01:53 <+due> hm, too distracting
01:53 <+kilobyte> dammit, custom FILE streams are GNU-only :(
01:53 <+sorear> it's supposed to emphasise the connection between the good gods
01:53 <+sorear> Ely saves TSO and Zin worshippers occasionally
01:53 <+doy> well, the message is "the shining one protects you from harm"
01:54 <+kilobyte> actually, the message say TSO and Zin do
01:54 <+doy> it doesn't seem to really fit with tso's flavor
01:54 <+sorear> that... needs to be fixed
01:54 <+doy> yeah
01:54 <+kilobyte> perhaps we should change this, yeah
01:54 <+doy> it would mkae more sense if it was coming from ely
01:54 <+sorear> kilobyte: exactly, stdio's lack of any standardized extension mechanism is half of what makes it suck
01:55 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r15849cecaa90 /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Auto-id rings of regeneration (Vandal).
01:55 < syllogism> fear doesn't cancel mesmerize
01:55 <+doy> hmmm
01:55 <+doy> also, you can't controlled-teleport away from mesmerization, but you can uncontrolled-teleport away
01:55 <+doy> that seems broken
01:56 <+kilobyte> it's a mind-affecting effect
01:57 <+kilobyte> it makes your character don't _want_ to escape
01:57 <+doy> reading a scroll of teleport seems to be wanting to escape
01:58 < TGW> either that, or you want to get closer and you're a terrible judge of probability
01:58 <+doy> heteroy just tried to controlled-teleport away, but it said he couldn't, so he controlled-teleported into a wall that was closer to the mermaid, which made it uncontrolled
01:58 <+doy> this seems dumb
01:58 < TGW> yeah that is dumb
01:59 < TGW> maybe mesmerisation could prevent the tele status from running out
01:59 < syllogism> actually fear does cancel it
01:59 < TGW> you know, keep it at 1 aut until
01:59 < syllogism> maybe because tele kicked in immediately afterwards
01:59 < Vandal> I wonder
01:59 < Vandal> nvm
02:03 < Ashenzari> KiloByte created page AC nerf at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:ac
02:04 < syllogism> heteroy used all his consumables and escaped with 6 hp 
02:06 <+doy> why does being mesmerized grey out all water tiles?
02:06 <+Keskitalo> Those plants should be bushes, so the javelineer could pincushion him.
02:06 <+due> Also
02:06 < TGW> you're too fixated on the mermaid to remember what colour water is
02:06 <+due> Mesmerisation should *not* stop teleport.
02:06 <+due> It's just too nasty.
02:06 < syllogism> itd oesnt
02:06 <+due> It does
02:07 -!- Napkin [n=chojin@unaffiliated/napkin] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
02:07 <+due> The teleport code specifically checks for mesmerisation.
02:07 <+due> If you are beheld, it won't let you teleport away.
02:07 -!- Napkin [i=chojin@unaffiliated/napkin] has joined ##crawl-dev
02:07 <+doy> due: you can still controlled-teleport into walls, which gives you a random teleport
02:07 <+due> see spells3.cc:1576-1584
02:07 <+doy> assuming the wall isn't farther away
02:07 <+due> Hm.
02:07 <+doy> (this is dumb)
02:08 < syllogism> well I just teleported away
02:08 <+Keskitalo> I think I feel sleepy enough now.. nights!
02:08 < syllogism> without controlled tele
02:08 < Ashenzari> Mesmerized status isn't broken immediately by cause fear. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=343) by heteroy
02:08 <+due> Oh, that's only controlled teleport.
02:08 <+due> Ignore me!
02:09 <+doy> controlled teleportation when mesmerised shouldn't allow targeting non-walkable tiles
02:09 < syllogism> could just force it to be uncontrolled, seems better
02:10 < TGW> yeah, that
02:10 <+due> Otherwise that enforces taking off your ring of cTele or waiting for the spell to wear off.
02:10 <+due> Or... nothing if it's a mutation.
02:10 <+doy> tele control could stand to be a drawback in some situations
02:11 < syllogism> in 4.1 you couldn't control tele while berserk
02:11 < syllogism> I learned the hard way :P
02:11 < Vandal> due, these new brands on blowgun ammo, are they all poison checks?
02:11 < syllogism> they've no checks
02:12 <+due> Vandal: No, but they're currently broken.
02:12 <+due> Vandal: I've got the fix worked out with Eronarn and dpeg, though.
02:12 <+due> Just have to code it up.
02:12 < Vandal> oh
02:12 < Vandal> So what kind of checks will they perform?
02:12 < Eronarn> due: dpeg approved the meph cloud check, or?
02:12 <+due> Eronarn: Not exactly that check, but yeah.
02:12 < Vandal> (also does this mean I can use Paralyze / Slowing on Imps?)
02:13 <+due> The checks will be:
02:13 <+due> blowgun skill/enchantment: with low skill/heavy negative enchantment, there's a chance of failing completely.
02:13 < ogaz> you can already para/slow imps if you pass their MR :|
02:13 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has joined ##crawl-dev
02:13 <+doy> @??kraken
02:13 < Gretell> kraken (X) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 160-256 | AC/EV: 20/0 | Damage: 50 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(64) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 1859 | Sp: spawn tentacles.
02:13 < Vandal> I mean with the blowgun
02:13 <+doy> @??tentacle
02:13 < Gretell> tentacle (w) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 36-60 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 29 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(immune), asphyx | XP: 0.
02:13 <+due> monster HD: with high HD and low blowgun skill/enchantment, monsters can shrug off the effects.
02:14 <+due> the higher your skill and blowgun enchantment, the easier it is for you to overcome their HD check.
02:14 < Vandal> ah
02:14 < Vandal> So being poison immune doesn't necessarily mean you can't use blowgun effects on them?
02:14 <+due> So, with blowguns 27 and a +9 blowgun, you should be able to have a not-so-bad chance of paralysing cerebov.
02:14 < Vandal> coooooooool
02:14 <+due> Rather than just... being able to paralyse him as-is.
02:14 < Vandal> I was afraid it would get weak by end game, good to know it will still work
02:15 < Vandal> Honestly I was starting to think it was a mistake not making an Enchanter if I wanted to be stealthy
02:15 <+due> There might be other checks at a later date.
02:15 < ogaz> Vandal: people already use curare against orb guardians
02:15 < Eronarn> also, wtf?
02:16 < Eronarn> what was that double/triple sword discussion silliness
02:16 < syllogism> did dpeg approve nerfing curare
02:16 <+doy> the whole point of the blowgun/needle overhaul was to make assassins playable without enchantments
02:16 < Eronarn> haven't you ever seen a razor? it's exactly like that
02:16 < Vandal> oh, awesome doy
02:16 <+due> doy: Yes, exactly.
02:16 <+doy> Eronarn: that's how i've always pictured it
02:16 <+doy> (:
02:16 <+due> *All* forms of ranged combat should be viable.
02:16 < Vandal> so far I have to say as a SpAs it is a painful existance even with the buffs
02:16 < Eronarn> doy: Well, you're clearly sane, then
02:16 <+due> I picture a triple sword as a triskelion.
02:16 <+due> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Three_Legs_of_Man_-_Triskelion.jpg
02:16 < Eronarn> due: D&Dism.
02:16 < Vandal> but I guess other races that are better in melee combat wouldn't have it quite so rough
02:17 < Eronarn> due: D&D's double swords are two swords extending on opposite sides from the same hilt. So a triple sword that is a triskelion is 1.5x a D&Dism.
02:17 < Vandal> also I think I'm just really unlucky this game in terms of dart generation
02:17 < Vandal> but we'll see how it goes!
02:18 <+due> Also
02:18 <+due> Eronarn: You were talking about reintroducing the speed penalty for bucklers and slings?
02:18 < Vandal> O_o
02:18 < Eronarn> due: Not... exactly. Twinge- was looking at other options than currently. So I was talking about it with him, but I didn't agree with him.
02:19 < Vandal> Did N prove that sling + buckler is crazy awesome or something?
02:19 < Vandal> I know he made a HaHu yesterday
02:19 <+due> Eronarn: Ah.
02:19 <+due> Oh, did he?
02:19 < Vandal> Yes
02:19 < Vandal> He got really damn far too
02:19 <+sorear> It's N
02:19 < eith> i dont think him doing anything proves much =p did he say it was awesome?
02:19 <+sorear> he *should* get far
02:19 <+due> But that's ... N.
02:19 < Vandal> He didn't talk much
02:19 <+due> N is just amazing.
02:19 < Vandal> I just kept seeing him get milestones
02:20 < eith> yea he does that with the worst of chars
02:20 < Eronarn> due: Did you consider the rPois+/++/+++ I proposed? Or a monster type based bonus to the HD check? It would be nice to have many of these poisons work against some, but not all, poison resistant things.
02:20 <+due> Eronarn: Good, because I don't think reintroducing the speed penalty makes any sense.
02:20 <+due> Eronarn: Well, yeah.
02:20 <+due> Eronarn: They're organic compounds.
02:20 < Vandal> I second multiple levels of poison resist
02:20 <+due> Eronarn: So there's going to be other resistance checks.
02:20 < Eronarn> sure, was just wondering if you had ideas
02:20 < Vandal> It is weird having such a binary resistance system for such a common damage source
02:20 < Vandal> For players and monsters
02:21 < eith> monsters have 3 levels
02:21 < Vandal> Oh, they do?
02:21 -!- dis_astranagant [n=hurf@173-22-128-136.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Connection timed out]
02:21 < Eronarn> hijacking rPois could do this, or we could make a new "organic resistance" like how there is rotting and asphyx resistance
02:21 < Vandal> What are Water Moccasins (brown snakes) ?
02:21 < Eronarn> @??water moccasin
02:21 < Gretell> water moccasin (S) | Speed: 14 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 10(medium poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(16), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 82.
02:21 < TGW> brown snakes
02:21 < Eronarn> @??electric golem
02:21 < Gretell> electric golem (8) | Speed: 20 | HD: 15 | Health: 105-165 | AC/EV: 5/20 | Damage: 15(elec), 15(elec), 15, 15 | Flags: non-living, see invisible | Res: magic(160), fire, cold, elec+++, poison+++ | XP: 5606 | Sp: b.lightning, blink.
02:21 < Vandal> I see
02:21 < Vandal> I couldn't poison them with needles
02:22 < TGW> they have rP
02:22 < TGW> and you can't poison much anything with needles
02:22 < Eronarn> Vandal: rP+ = immune, totally, to damage poison.
02:22 < Vandal> Then why are there 3 levels of it?
02:22 < Eronarn> Currently does nothing vs. other poisons, or the asphyx part of curare.
02:22 < Eronarn> legacy
02:22 <+due> I think organic resistance might be better.
02:22 < Vandal> oh
02:22 < nrook> uh no it isn't
02:22 < nrook> rPois 1, 2, 3 react differently to poison arrow damage
02:22 < Vandal> oh?
02:22 < eith> barely
02:22 <+due> Yeah, I don't want to hijack poison resistance.
02:23 < Eronarn> yes, but it's not a big factor and monster pois resists are assigned essentially randomly
02:23 <+due> We can maybe subsume poison resistance into organic compound resistances, though.
02:23 < nrook> I mean, it's trivial right now because only poison arrow does that type of damage (and even that is mostly irresistable), but if more things used that damage type it would become important?
02:23 < nrook> I'm kind of feeling silly for bringing this up though, hence the question mark
02:24 <+sorear> oh no
02:24 <+sorear> are we seriously talking about rP+++
02:24 < Eronarn> due: I was thinking: + means you have a "demonic" biology. Still blood or whatever, but you aren't really a flesh and blood creature. ++ means you are a living creature but very, very different. Like oozes or eyes. +++ means you are non-living or an undead without any "lively" metabolism (e.g., bloodless vamp, lich)
02:25 < Vandal> oh and due, how goes the slings / throw split?
02:25 < Eronarn> due: This modifier could also apply to stabbing if we wanted FWIW.
02:26 <+due> Vandal: I haven't done any coding since we last spoke.
02:26 < Vandal> oh. sorry to bug you :)
02:26 <+due> it's okay
02:26 <+due> just been really busy
02:26 < Vandal> I was just curious what it involved
02:27 < Eronarn> +++ could be totally immune, ++ could be very resistant, + could be resistant
02:27 < Eronarn> to organic effects
02:27 < Vandal> Like if Slings used to USE throwing skill?
02:27 <+due> - could be susceptible.
02:27 <+due> Vandal: I honestly haven't looked yet
02:27 < Vandal> oh
02:27 < syllogism> it's 50,20,10 or something
02:27 < eith> Vandal: everything did at one stage
02:27 < Eronarn> yes... wonder what would be susceptible
02:27 < syllogism> a ring of poison res should grant rp+++ and all other sources just rp+ per source. Also nagas should breathe poison clouds and spam it while running away
02:28 < Eronarn> i think +++ would give implicit rPois+, rotting res, asphyx res
02:28 < syllogism> (they did this in 4.1 and you weren't immune without rp+++)
02:28 < Eronarn> ++ would givei mplicit asphyx
02:28 < Eronarn> but not necessarily rotting or rP+
02:29 < Eronarn> (or maybe not asphyx for ++, i guess oozes and stuff could require breathing)
02:47 < Vandal> btw I have a request, regarding blowguns
02:48 < Vandal> Have you considered removing their shield penalty as well?  Most of the time it wouldn't make a huge difference because you're just shooting once to get a status effect, then swapping weapons anyway
02:48 < Vandal> but they can't really be that much more difficult to use than a sling
02:49 < Vandal> it would synergize well with training throwing for darts / daggers too, because those don't get shield penalties either
02:50 < AceTetra> hahaha nagas running away
02:50 <+sorear> Why are we discussing rP++?
02:50 <+sorear> One-level poison res is ... not something I ever knew was negotiable
02:51 < AceTetra> why all the metadiscussion about discussing rP++?
02:52 < Vandal> appearantly it is already more than 1 level
02:53 < nrook> only for monsters though, and that's a technical detail, not an actual gameplay-affecting thing
02:54 < eith> it sucked in 4.1 i dunno why anyone is talking about it =p
02:55 < Eronarn> Vandal: blowguns are very tricky weapons actually
02:55 < Eronarn> sorear: i don't think anyone is proposing more than one level of rP+ for players, it's simply not feasible in the current system
02:56 < Eronarn> i wouldn't mind it if there was another slot / randarts were more common & better / there were more things like potions of resistance
02:56 < syllogism> well even in 4.1 the ring gave you +++ so it was more a randart nerf
02:57 < nrook> I would like to see an rElec system where levitation gives you 50% elec damage, insulation gives you 33% elec damage, and both stack
02:58 < nrook> so there is no real permanent option to deal with electricity, just a bevy of temporary ones
02:58 < nrook> last time I suggested it on sf it kind of got shot down, though
02:59 < ogaz> eith: how did rPois work in 4.1?
02:59 <+due> nrook: Electrical damage is still massively overpowered, though.
02:59 < nrook> due: this would have to accompany a nerf to electric golems, etc., yeah.
03:00 < eith> ogaz: theres was 3 levels, like the other res
03:00 < eith> 3 was immune
03:00 < ogaz> so was 1 like 1/3 chance of getting poisoned and 2 a 2/3 chance?
03:02 < eith> that i actually dont recall
03:06 < Eronarn> sometimes i really have no idea what the hell dpeg is talking about
03:06 <+due> with regards to?
03:07 -!- N78291 [n=null@130-127-45-6.chouse.resnet.clemson.edu] has joined ##crawl-dev
03:07 -!- stabwound1 [n=sh@dsl913.rba1.pppoe.execulink.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
03:08 -!- Xiberia [n=deefghdf@81-235-210-141-no62.tbcn.telia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
03:08 < syllogism> probably  re: daggers stacking
03:09 <+due> N78291! How was HaHu?
03:09 <+sorear> N78291: We hear slings and bucklers are overpowered?
03:10 <+due> sorear: Well, I didn't find them so on my last HaHu, but... I suck.
03:12 < N78291> maybe the no penalty for slings and shields should be limited to bucklers
03:12 <+due> Isn't it?
03:12 <+due> But I'm not sure.
03:12 <+due> Perhaps just reduced for other shields.
03:13 < N78291> I didn't get a message when using a shield
03:13 < Eronarn> due: comment in this FR http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=303
03:13 <+sorear> N78291: are slings + shields overpowered?
03:14 <+sorear> Some of us thought 1-handed slings gave them a neat niche
03:14 <+due> I think it does.
03:14 <+due> And it works thematically.
03:14 < N78291> if slings are overpowered it's not because of shields
03:15 <+sorear> Well, Eronarn is talking about nerfing slings because you found them overpowered
03:15 < Eronarn> no i'm not!!
03:15 < N78291> they are fast and you can use whatever brand because who cares if a stone mulches
03:15 < Eronarn> N78291: what brands were you using
03:15 <+due> We are not nerfing slings just yet.
03:15 <+due> We only *just* buffed them.
03:15 < N78291> flame
03:16 < Eronarn> no combination brand? and were your sling / stone enchanted & to what degree?
03:16 < N78291> +7 damage sling with +0 stones
03:17 < Eronarn> that doesn't seem like it should be any more broken than the damage from any other ranged weapon
03:17 < Eronarn> which is quite high at good skill / enchantment
03:17 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@85-131-30-15.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
03:18 < N78291> paralysis needles seem overpowered though
03:18 < N78291> at least with stack sizes they currently generate in
03:18 < Eronarn> needles are getting nerfed hard
03:19 <+due> Yeah. STack-size, too.
03:19 < Eronarn> due: they shouldn't auto-mulch, by the way, not even the powerful ones. either they should all automulch, including normal poison, or none should
03:20 <+due> Yeah.
03:20 <+due> I think the changes will make a difference, though.
03:20 <+due> But throwing needles should either have no effect, or they should automulch if it has an effect.
03:20 <+due> (As in, you break needles you don't use in a launcher.)
03:21 < Eronarn> due: i think it'd be fine just to cap at 1 range, no launcher bonus, and divide throwing skill by 3 or so
03:22 < Eronarn> it makes no sense for them to mulch more often when you fire them with *less* force
03:22 < nrook> how exactly would throwing needles work, anyway
03:22 <+due> But you have no skill and they're difficult to handle.
03:22 < nrook> it seems like that could be disallowed without any adverse effects
03:22 < Eronarn> nrook: they work more like knitting needles than sewing needles
03:22 < Eronarn> and there are tons of examples of poisoned needles being thrown
03:23 < Eronarn> in history and in popular culture
03:23 < Eronarn> due: well, you have no skill if you have no throwing skill :P
03:23 < Eronarn> could just add a +mulchrate for using at less than X effective skill
03:23 < Eronarn> whether blowgun or not
03:23 < Eronarn> and then no blowgun = you can apply far less of your throwing skill
03:23 <+due> I like the idea of skill affecting mulch rate, to be honest.
03:23 < Vandal> I just had an idea
03:23 <+due> But that might be overpowered.
03:24 < nrook> Eronarn: yes, but how often does a player with significant throwing skill have needles, but no blowgun?
03:24 < Vandal> for changing Halflings more
03:24 < AceTetra> also should allow wielding needles
03:24 <+due> AceTetra: This is not nethack. ;)
03:24 < AceTetra> well how can you load them into the blowgun if you can't wield them?
03:24 < nrook> Eronarn: if a player has no throwing, the needle special effect probably won't go off anyway if they throw a needle without a launcher.
03:24 < Eronarn> due: it wouldn't be overpowered if they mulched like normal needles, but mulched worse with low skill (i wouldn't make it proportional to skill, but have a ceiling. Like with the -X value = 1/X formula I proposed, anything in the 1//X range gets a mulch penalty)
03:24 < Eronarn> nrook: yes
03:25 <+due> Eronarn: I mean, applying it to all ranged weapons.
03:25 < nrook> Eronarn: if a player has throwing, they probably have a blowgun too.
03:25 < Vandal> oh, I didn't realize Halflings could use real shields
03:25 < Eronarn> oh
03:25 < Vandal> I thought they were too small
03:25 < Eronarn> due: i think that would be a good way, with a similar formula, to make starting bows skill more important
03:25 < Vandal> Is it just Spriggans that are too small for Shields
03:25 < Vandal> ?
03:25 <+due> Vandal: Yes.
03:25 <+due> Vandal: Sprigs are *eensy*.
03:25 < Vandal> oh and due
03:25 < N78291> Vandal: halflings can't use large shields
03:25 < Vandal> I was thinking to myself
03:25 < Eronarn> (because your initial, say, skill 4 in launcher means you mulch a lot less htan someone skill 0=>4 will, so they can't pick it up as readily just finding a launcher on the floor)
03:25 < Vandal> Why stop at shield skill
03:25 <+due> Spriggans can only use bucklers, not normal shields, right?
03:26 < Vandal> Why not make Halflings the non-magical small race?
03:26 < Eronarn> any non-capped anti-mulch effect is honeslty not needed though
03:26 < Eronarn> mulching is so overrated as a problem
03:26 < Vandal> Have them be inherently resistant to magic, and BAD at it
03:26 <+due> !apt ha
03:26 < Henzell> Ha: Air=90, Armour=150, Axes=120, Bows=70, Conj=130, Xbows=90, Darts=50!, Div=140, Dodge=70, Earth=100, Ench=100, Evo=67, Exp=100!, Fighting=120, Fire=100, Ice=100, Inv=75, Long=100, Maces=150, Nec=150, Poison=120, Polearms=160, Shields=130, Short=60!, Slings=50!, Splcast=169, Stab=70, Staves=130, Stealth=60, Summ=120, Throw=60!, Tloc=100, Tmut=150, Traps=100, Unarmed=140*
03:26 <+due> Hm.
03:26 < Vandal> Like have their *best* magic Apt be 100
03:26 <+due> It is?
03:26 <+sorear> Air=90
03:26 < Vandal> oh I thought Ench was lower :)
03:26 <+due> Ah.
03:26 < Vandal> Ok nevermind, best be 150
03:26 <+due> No, though
03:27 < Eronarn> Vandal: ...no
03:27 <+sorear> due: Do you remember the hillbilly sting
03:27 < nrook> non-magical small race sounds like a contradiction in terms.  Why would want to be an EV fighter if you can't cast spells?
03:27 <+due> They're already a very difficult race, I think.
03:27 < ogaz> "we need a big ogre and a small ogre"
03:27 < Vandal> Well you just set up Assassins to be a viable non-magical class
03:27 < Vandal> No
03:27 < Vandal> They wouldn't be like ogres at all
03:27 < nrook> for instance, they would have no hp
03:27 <+sorear> halflings are fine, honestly
03:27 <+due> Halflings are less than fine
03:27 <+sorear> go away
03:27 <+due> We are currently looking at buffing them or making them intersting
03:27 < Eronarn> halflings are half fine
03:27 < Vandal> They'd be Assassin / Thief / Ranger specialists of the small races
03:27 <+due> Reducing their magical skills is more of a nerf.
03:28 < Vandal> Let me finish
03:28 < Vandal> Don't just nerf their magic skills, replace them
03:28 <+sorear> Halflings suck at adventuring.  This is totally in flavor
03:28 <+due> !apt ha
03:28 < Henzell> Ha: Air=90, Armour=150, Axes=120, Bows=70, Conj=130, Xbows=90, Darts=50!, Div=140, Dodge=70, Earth=100, Ench=100, Evo=67, Exp=100!, Fighting=120, Fire=100, Ice=100, Inv=75, Long=100, Maces=150, Nec=150, Poison=120, Polearms=160, Shields=130, Short=60!, Slings=50!, Splcast=169, Stab=70, Staves=130, Stealth=60, Summ=120, Throw=60!, Tloc=100, Tmut=150, Traps=100, Unarmed=140*
03:28 < Eronarn> ...replace them with what?
03:28 < eith> replace?
03:28 <+due> They already have good stealth, short blades, and throwing skills.
03:28 < Vandal> Increase their hp
03:28 < Vandal> A little
03:28 < Vandal> and their fighting
03:28 < Eronarn> that is a huge nerf, really
03:28 <+due> Yeah, HP needs a boost.
03:28 < Vandal> give them inherent -25% incoming magic damage
03:28 < eith> whoa
03:28 < Eronarn> no.
03:29 <+sorear> ..no
03:29 < ogaz> what deals magic damage?
03:29 <+due> What, all magical damage?
03:29 < ogaz> that's just like disintegration
03:29 <+sorear> ogaz: great orb of eyes
03:29 < Vandal> the idea is that as a race, they are inherently non-magical
03:29 < Vandal> and contact with it is diminished
03:29 <+due> Like, Lehudib's Crystal Spear -25%?
03:29 < Eronarn> Vandal: this is bad idea and will never happen because it goes against design philosophy
03:29 < Vandal> yes
03:29 < Vandal> How so Eronarn?
03:29 <+due> Too overpowered, sorry.
03:29 < Eronarn> Vandal: LCS is a physical projectile
03:29 <+due> And it overlaps with Deep Dwarf's damage reduction.
03:29 < Eronarn> It summons a big honkin' crystal shard
03:29 < Vandal> DD is an AC type effect
03:30 < Eronarn> And spears you with it
03:30 < Eronarn> Magic resistance does not protect against it, even though it's magic
03:30 < Vandal> Eronarn kind of like how a Fireball is a big honkin' explosion with lots of concussive force?
03:30 <+due> Magic resistance needs to be renamed.
03:30 < Eronarn> yes, what Vandal's really proposing is what most people think magic resistance is
03:30 < N78291> if a small, high hp, poor magic race is needed it should be MD
03:30 < Eronarn> which makes no sense
03:30 <+due> N78291: Already exists, :)
03:30 < Vandal> Not "high" hp
03:30 < Vandal> and MD are not sneaky stabbers
03:31 <+due> Well, I think Halflings are doing kinda okay at the minute.
03:31 < Eronarn> due: random idea: halflings could have a stellar Invo aptitude, because they're so good at making friends that it even applies to the gods
03:31 < Vandal> Anyways let me get to the drawing board on this, there are ways to make up for being non-magical besides resisting it more
03:31 <+due> I think base MR, stealth and HP could be looked at for Halflings.
03:31 <+due> What are their current stats?
03:31 < Eronarn> ??Stealth[2]
03:31 < Henzell> stealth[2/4]: Base stealth is 3*dex + stealth*character value. Character values are: Troll, Ogre, Ogre Mage, Centaur: 9; Minotaur: 12; Gnome, Halfling, Kobold, Spriggan, Naga, Vampire: 18; Vampire when hungry/bat: 19; All others: 15.
03:31 < Vandal> they share hp formula with Spriggans and Kobolds
03:31 <+due> Ah, same as Sprigs.
03:31 < Vandal> at least according to the wiki
03:31 <+due> Stealth's fine. What's their racial MR?
03:32 < Vandal> 3 iirc
03:32 <+sorear> We shouldn't let the halfling persecution complex affect us
03:32 < Vandal> I already suggested upping that to 5
03:32 < Eronarn> ??magic resistance
03:32 < Henzell> magic resistance[1/5]: Magic resistance is your or a monster's ability to ignore hostile enchantments. Player MR comes from experience level, items and enchantments skill. The most important hostile monster enchantments are Sigmund|orc wizard confuse, Jessica|orc wizard slow, deep elf sorcerer|ogre mage|Erolcha|Louise banishment, ancient lich|orc sorcerer paralysis.
03:32 < Eronarn> ??magic resistance[2]
03:32 < Henzell> magic resistance[2/5]: Chances of anything resisting a spell are calculated like this: (magic resistance + 100 - the spells power) is compared to ( random2(100) + random2(101) ) and if the random numbers are less the spell is negated.
03:32 < Eronarn> ??magic resistance[3]
03:32 < Henzell> magic resistance[3/5]: Monster MR is a fixed property of the monster, ask Gretell (@? deep elf mage).  Player MR is XL * racial-multiplier + randart MR + 30 for armor _of_ MR + 40 per ring _of_ MR + 2 * Enchantments skill + 30 * level of MR mutation + 50 if lichform.
03:32 < Eronarn> ??magic resistance[4]
03:32 < Henzell> magic resistance[4/5]: Racial factor is 7 for spriggans, 6 for purple dracs and deep dwarves, 5 for nagas , 4 for elves, dwarves, demigods, vampires and ogres, and 3 for everyone else. MD are only 2 in trunk, though.
03:32 < Vandal> due, did you ever get time to read that page?
03:32 < Eronarn> yeah, 3
03:32 < ogaz> I'm still in favor of just cutting halflings entirely
03:32 <+due> Maybe we could increase it to 6.
03:32 <+due> ogaz: We've already cut what, three races recently?
03:32 < Eronarn> due: that just makes them even more spriggan-like
03:32 < Vandal> 6 is pretty close to 7, which is spriggan
03:32 < Vandal> That is why I suggested 5 on the wiki page I wrote
03:33 < Vandal> and giving them DE / Ke hp formula
03:33 <+due> Well, sure.
03:33 <+sorear> Am I the only beleiver in the halfling persecution complex?
03:33 < Vandal> slightly better, but still small race-ish
03:33 < ogaz> Ha are boxed in by Ko, HE, and Sp. I don't see a way to make it interestingly different from all 3
03:33 < Eronarn> you can't with hp/apt/stealth/mr
03:33 < Eronarn> you have to add some other factor
03:33 < Vandal> that is what I'm saying
03:33 <+due> There will need to be other flavour.
03:33 < Vandal> I'll figure something out, gimme a little time
03:33 < Eronarn> for example: halflings could get half cost at all shops
03:34  * sorear leaves
03:34 <+due> Intrinsic bargaining ability?
03:34 < Vandal> and due, read the stuff I wrote in the wiki
03:34 < TGW> sorear: ?
03:34 < TGW> due: not interesting, really
03:34 < Vandal> dpeg liked the inherent stealth bonus for not wearing boots
03:34 <+due> I think that's a bit... much.
03:34 < Eronarn> the inherent stealth bonus for not wearing boots is silly
03:34 <+due> That's a bit LoTR.
03:34 < eith> thats to lotr
03:34 < Vandal> soft furry feet make less noise :)
03:34 <+due> Too LoTR, though.
03:34 < Vandal> Why does that even matter?
03:35 < Eronarn> Vandal: that's just it, it *doesn't* matter
03:35 < Vandal> It isn't like you're going to get sued
03:35 < eith> it does, its part of crawl
03:35 <+due> LoTR is a) cliched b) less than 300 years old.
03:35 < Eronarn> it's functionally the same as making them more stealthy
03:35 < Eronarn> except with a downside
03:35 < Vandal> The only downside is that they'd need actual Stealth boots to get a bigger bonus than Elf Boots
03:35 < Eronarn> 'hey, you know what this buff to this weak race needs? a downside'
03:36 < Vandal> It isn't a much of a downside considering you probably arne't wearing heavy armor and relying on AC anyway
03:36 < Eronarn> Vandal: it is a non-feature
03:36 < Eronarn> and doesn't even merit discussion
03:36 < Vandal> Did you read what I wrote?
03:36 < ogaz> sorear: I think I can see what you mean by halfling persecution complex
03:37 < Eronarn> Vandal: It is a non-feature and doesn't even merit discussion.
03:37 <+due> Eronarn: Er. Back off.
03:37 < Vandal> Well dpeg liked it, so I'll take his word over yours
03:37 < TGW> ogaz: what's that
03:37 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["goodnight all"]
03:37 <+due> Eronarn: You don't get to dismiss people's ideas completely and utterly just because you don't agree with them.
03:37 < Vandal> Anyways I'm done talking about it until I have something more solid to bring to the table
03:37 < Eronarn> due: i don't disagree with the idea, i disagree that it's anything other than "give halflings a stealth boost" with an asterisk after it
03:38 <+due> Eronarn: No, you said "doesn't even merit discussion", "non-feature".
03:38 < Eronarn> and i think we can all agree that just tweaking their stealth/mr/hp/apt is not going to make them an interesting race
03:38 < Eronarn> due: the asterisk part doesn't
03:38 < Eronarn> the stealth bonus should just be discussed as a stealth bonus
03:39 < Vandal> Eronarn you are absolutely right
03:39 < Eronarn> random thought: halflings could get racial quietness, causing less noise when doing noisy things
03:39 < Vandal> That is why I'm trying to think of ways to make being non-magical into an opportunity for some very unique racial attributes
03:40 < Eronarn> noise effects are pretty brutal, and it's not the same as a straight stealth buff, they could keep their current stealth but, say, be able to be a stealthy conjurer
03:40 <+sorear> Eronarn: like, casting all spells except Passwall?
03:40 < Eronarn> sorear: Yes.
03:41 <+sorear> We don't currently track whose fault a noise is, though
03:41 <+sorear> crystal spear hitting a target makes a loud noise *at the target*
03:42 < Eronarn> sorear: fixable without a huge rework though, i assume?
03:42 <+due> Not that huge.
03:42 <+due> You could specify an actor in calls to noisy.
03:43 < ogaz> is there a halfling wiki page?
03:44 < Vandal> I made one under discussion about new features
03:45 < Vandal> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:halfling
03:47 < Eronarn> oh, that reminds me
03:47 < Eronarn> let me put the monster language stuff up before i start my work
03:52 -!- dis_astranagant [n=hurf@173-22-128-136.client.mchsi.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
03:53 < Vandal> btw, is average for Evocations 75?
03:53 < ogaz> yes
03:53 < Vandal> Thanks
03:53 <+doy> !apt human
03:53 < Henzell> Hu: Air=100, Armour=100, Axes=100, Bows=100, Conj=100, Xbows=100, Darts=100, Div=100, Dodge=100, Earth=100, Ench=100, Evo=75, Exp=100!, Fighting=100, Fire=100, Ice=100, Inv=75, Long=100, Maces=100, Nec=100, Poison=100, Polearms=100, Shields=100, Short=100, Slings=100, Splcast=130, Stab=100, Staves=100, Stealth=100, Summ=100, Throw=100, Tloc=100, Tmut=100, Traps=100, Unarmed=100
03:55 <+sorear> average for evocations is 80 because some OCD developer decided to round off all the aptitudes
03:55 < TGW> I think henzell should refuse to hand out human apts
03:56 <+sorear> in trunk
03:56 <+sorear> and now some even more OCD developers want to round the aptitudes to 5/7 values :(
03:56 < TGW> sorear: you must love the 7-apt scale
03:57 < Vandal> Staves would be 2H weapons for Halflings?
03:58 < TGW> no
03:59 < ogaz> halflings can use caster staves + bucklers(or at least, they could in 0.5.2)
03:59 < Vandal> Sorry, I get confused about what the differences are between all the handednesses
03:59 < Vandal> I meant Quarterstaff / Lajatang
03:59 < TGW> vandal: yeah, and so does everyone else
03:59 < TGW> and by everything else in crawl
03:59 < Vandal> I know QS / Laja are "better" without a shield for bigger races
04:00 < Vandal> But they're not quite 1.5 handed?
04:00 < eith> they are double handed, its wierd
04:01 < N78291> I don't think double handed does anything currently
04:03 <+sorear> qs is weird beyond its handedness
04:03 <+sorear> also this is OT
04:03 <+sorear> cases where Crawl currently stores data:
04:04 <+sorear> 1. compiled map definitions, in a custom binary format
04:04 <+sorear> 2. compiled speech/description databases, in SQLite (accessed via ndbm emulation)
04:05 <+sorear> 3. newgame-prefs-files, which store your last used race/class/name, in text in .crawlrc format next to your saves
04:05 <+sorear> 4. whereis record, in xlogline fomat
04:05 <+sorear> 5. xlogfile - stores all games, used to feed replicated databases
04:05 <+sorear> 6. milestones - similar to xlogfile
04:06 <+sorear> 7. high score table - like an xlogfile, but kept in sorted order by constant rewriting, and limited to 1000 entries (0.5MB)
04:06 <+sorear> 8. saved games, a custom binary format, packaged using tar/zip while the game is not running
04:07 <+sorear> 9. bones - very similar to saves, but never packaged
04:07 <+sorear> am I missing any
04:07 < Vandal> You know what I don't get
04:08 < Vandal> If Short Blades as a skill has no impact on Stabbing, and Stabbing is the only reason to use Short Blades...
04:08 < Vandal> I think you know where this is going
04:08 <+doy> Vandal: you should read scrollback
04:09 <+doy> i've been discussing that all day
04:09 < Vandal> ah
04:09 <+due> 7. also, when corrupt, causes immortality.
04:09 < Vandal> I was doing my damnedest today to kill things with short blades while you were talking about them :[
04:09 < ortoslon> +2 pair of boots of running for 269 gold
04:09 < Xiberia> buy
04:09 < Xiberia> now
04:09 < ortoslon> too cheap imo
04:09 <+due> ortoslon: Wrong channel? :)
04:10 < ortoslon> no
04:10 < ortoslon> i suggest to increase their cost
04:10 <+sorear> sounds about right
04:10 <+due> They already have a modifier.
04:10 <+sorear> boots of running are overrated imo
04:10 <+sorear> they're worth 300 gp
04:11 < AceTetra> i have the speed 1 mut and i love it
04:11 <+due> which is acceptable
04:11 < AceTetra> i'd pay 1000
04:12 <+doy> it depends on what kind of build you're playing
04:13 <+doy> boots of running are incredibly powerful with ranged characters
04:13 <+doy> especially ranged non-spellcasters
04:13 <+sorear> if you're a hunter and need to kite absolutely everything like doy's SpHu
04:13 <+doy> yes
04:13 < AceTetra> i'm a TrBe and i like being able to get to stairs and chase slime creatures
04:13 <+due> But incredibly rare enough that cost isn't usually an issue.
04:14 < Vandal> I think combining Blades into one catagory would make some room for the expansion of Staves as a real viable melee weapon
04:14 < Vandal> I don't just mean the enhancers
04:14 < AceTetra> always seemed odd that there's only 2 base types of staff
04:14 <+due> The problem is that short and long is such an arbitrary specifier.
04:15 <+due> Likewise light and heavy armour.
04:15 < AceTetra> plus what about wielding a halberd like it's a quarterstaff?
04:15 <+sorear> so, data storage
04:15 < Vandal> I don't see what would be hard about combining long and short
04:15 < Vandal> Just say anything more than 1 handed doesn't get the existing stab bonus
04:16 <+sorear> I'm planning to move #1, #2, #7, #8, and #9 into proper transactional databases
04:16 <+due> You could also sub-sub-type weapons based on their "length", and the bonus scales against that.
04:16 <+due> sorear: Excellent.
04:16 <+sorear> gets rid of all the fiddly locking logic we have no
04:17 <+sorear> #5 and #6 are fine as is, atomically appended files (a single xlogfile line is about 500 bytes, well under the Linux write atomicity limit of 4K)
04:17 <+sorear> I'm not sure what to do about #3 and #4
04:18 <+due> TGW: The whole point of the Ctrl-O overhaul is to make altar availability more easily indicated.
04:18 <+due> Saying "^faltar instead" is... kinda defeating the purpose.
04:18 < TGW> due: you can see which gods are available
04:18 < TGW> you're going to be ^fing anyway
04:19 < AceTetra> does the ^O overhaul involve allowing annotations on distant levels?
04:20 < TGW> vandal: I read that in a coding context and laughed
04:20 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
04:20 <+sorear> the longest xlogentry on CDO is 731 bytes
04:20 < Vandal> ??
04:20 < Henzell> [1/2875]: 
04:22 <+sorear> !lg polystyrus start=20100005183723S
04:22 < Henzell> No games for polystyrus (start=20100005183723S).
04:22 <+sorear> !lg polystyrus start=2010-01-05 18:37:23
04:22 < Henzell> 1. polystyrus the Transmogrifier (L12 SETm), worshipper of Sif Muna, killed by an exploding giant spore (created by an active ballistomycete (created by a giant spore (created by an active ballistomycete (created by a giant spore)))) on D:11 on 2010-01-05, with 19181 points after 18777 turns and 2:15:14.
04:22 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
04:22 <+sorear> timecircuits: Kiku wrath came up today
04:23 <+due> Which reminds me.
04:24 < TGW> vandal: combining short and long
04:24  * due bumps Mara back down to 19-25.
04:25 < Vandal> you mean variables or something?
04:25 <+doy> Vandal: regardless, weapon rebalancing of that scale isn't likely to happen before 0.8 or so
04:25 < TGW> vandal: yes
04:25 < Vandal> I am not a coder, but I've read a little about it
04:25 <+doy> we have a lot more pressing things to deal with first
04:26 < Vandal> right doy
04:26 < CIA-81> due * r26c21c4e8c59 /crawl-ref/source/dat/uniques.des: Change Mara's depth (greensnark)
04:26 < Vandal> Please don't assume anything I ever propose anything with a "This has to be in the next major version!" attitude
04:26 < Vandal> er, -anything
04:27 < Vandal> the first one
04:27 <+due> I need to finish WizLabs, sigh.
04:27 <+due> !tell dpeg Psst, Botono!
04:27 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
04:27 < Vandal> Also uh
04:27 < Vandal> If there is anything you'd actually like me to help with
04:27 < Vandal> I have nothing but time
04:27 <+sorear> Vandal: OK
04:28 < Vandal> I don't mind learning more about how to code
04:31 -!- N78291 [n=null@130-127-45-6.chouse.resnet.clemson.edu] has quit ["exit"]
04:33 < timecircuits> sorear:  my time is fleeting, would you send me an email about kiku wrath?
04:36 <+sorear> timecircuits: no, not that important
04:36 <+sorear> timecircuits: a user was considering K->L
04:36 <+sorear> it wasn't a design discussion
04:36 < AceTetra> Vandal: i doubt anyone assumes an attitude
04:37 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
04:37 < AceTetra> i suggest all kinds of stuff, but if i were really concerned i'd write a patch
04:39 < Vandal> :) I'd love to know how to do that
04:39 < Vandal> I'd combine the blades myself right now if I could
04:40 <+sorear> we wouldn't take it until 0.8
04:40 < Vandal> Sounds like I have a while to learn how then
04:40 <+sorear> I could do it right now, but it would be a balance nightmare
04:40 < Vandal> You mean balancing stuff like Sp being good at Sblades and bad at Lblades?
04:41 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
04:41 <+sorear> I mean balancing stuff like not accidentally making blades a no-brainer or worthless
04:41 <+doy> (like axes are now)
04:42 < dis_astranagant> axes are hardly a no brainer, they're just the most readily available decent weapon
04:42 < Vandal> Well aren't all melee weapons essentially the same with different names and adjustments to dmg / acc / delay?
04:42 < Vandal> (and handedness)
04:42 < dis_astranagant> though the executioner's axe is the best 2h weapon unless you're an ogre
04:43 <+doy> dis_astranagant: and the broad axe is the best 1h weapon unless you're worshipping tso
04:43 < Vandal> Not hard to look over the table of existing weapons and fit a single Blades catagory inside of existing parameters
04:43 < dis_astranagant> not really, plain katanas are much better
04:43 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@cpc1-oxfd15-0-0-cust71.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
04:43 < ogaz> doy: double sword(admittedly, it's ridiculously rare, but still)?
04:43 <+doy> ??katana
04:43 < Henzell> katana[1/1]: A single-edged sword with a curved blade of ~70-90cm length. It is a very dangerous weapon usually known to be utilized by the samurai. (hand-and-a-half Long Blade; Dam 13 Acc +2 Delay 13)
04:43 <+doy> ??broad axe
04:43 < Henzell> broad axe[1/1]: Hand and a Half Axe (Damage 14, Acc -2, Delay 170%); The best common vanilla weapon in the game and a good reason to go axes.
04:43 < dis_astranagant> one handed weapons are the one time weapon delay matters
04:44 < ogaz> ??double sword
04:44 < Henzell> double sword[1/1]: A magical weapon with two razor-sharp blades. (hand-and-a-half Long Blade; Dam 15, Acc -2, Delay 16). The highest damage dealing weapon in the game that you can wield with a shield. (No shield if you're a small race.)
04:44 < dis_astranagant> min delay on a katana is 6 while a broad axe/double sword is on 8
04:44 <+doy> min delay on katana is 7, i think?
04:44 < dis_astranagant> however, you're nearly guaranteed a broad axe or 10
04:44 < dis_astranagant> no, it's 6
04:44 < dis_astranagant> integer math
04:44 < Vandal> Lately it seems like maces are more common than axes for my games
04:44 <+doy> dis_astranagant: no, i think all non-shortblades are capped at 7
04:45 < dis_astranagant> nope
04:45 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
04:45 < Vandal> Orcs especially seem to like Maces
04:45 <+doy> i could be misremembering though
04:45 < dis_astranagant> 2h weapons are capped at 7
04:45 < ogaz> maces were always more common than axes but maces were just bad before 0.6
04:45 <+doy> ah, okay
04:45 < dis_astranagant> and special cased to always hit 7
04:45 <+doy> weapon speed is so wacky
04:45 < dis_astranagant> 2h delay is nearly meaningless in the long run
04:45 <+doy> yeah
04:46 < dis_astranagant> shortblades are special cased so that sabres hit 5 delay despite having 12 base
04:46 < dis_astranagant> in trunk, demon whips hit 5 delay and eveningstars are on 7
04:47 < dis_astranagant> Demon whips are the best 1h there, other than some edge cases involving high AC targets
04:48 <+sorear> What of holy scourges?
04:48 < dis_astranagant> holy scourges fucking destroy hell et al.
04:48 < dis_astranagant> though it's kinda wasteful using a one hander in torment country
04:49 < dis_astranagant> better off getting an exec axe blessed
04:49 < dis_astranagant> or GSC
04:49 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
04:50 < dis_astranagant> I mean, demon whips are the best 1h, so of course a demon whip with more damage will be an even better 1h
04:50 <+sorear> demon whips are better than broad axes?
04:50 < dis_astranagant> easily
04:50 <+doy> ??demon whip
04:50 < Henzell> demon whip[1/1]: A terrible weapon, woven in the depths of the inferno. (One-handed medium Mace; Dam 10 Acc +1 Delay 13). Up to 0.5, their only use was being a good Tukima fodder (they weight next to nothing), in 0.6, that use is gone, but they are 12/+1/11, or 13/0/11 when blessed by TSO -- the best one-handed weapon.  Heavily biased towards dex.
04:51 <+doy> nice
04:51 < dis_astranagant> broad axes never were the best one hander.  They're only popular because I argued heavily about how much easier it is to obtain one than a katana or double blade
04:51 <+doy> well, yeah
04:51 <+doy> i've seen maybe 5 katanas since i've been playing
04:51 <+doy> and maybe 2 double swords
04:52 <+doy> i see like 5 broad axes each gmae
04:52 < dis_astranagant> Scimitars of speed are better sometimes
04:52 <+doy> yeah, except against higher ac targets
04:52 < dis_astranagant> exactly
04:52 <+doy> which includes a lot of the endgame
04:52 < dis_astranagant> the speed brand is rather misunderstood
04:53 <+doy> it is?
04:53 < dis_astranagant> it's current application is pretty clever
04:53 < dis_astranagant> I rather disagree with dpeg's assertion that it's a total no brainer
04:53 < dis_astranagant> since it's mostly used to make bad weapons useable
04:54 <+doy> yes
04:54 <+doy> this is why i argued for letting short blades keep it for now
04:54 < dis_astranagant> No one in their right mind would go 2h polearms without their chance for speed
04:55 < dis_astranagant> exec axes always seem to show up eventually
04:56 < dis_astranagant> and a glaive of speed is quite competitive with one, though it doesn't work as well versus crap like curse skulls
04:58 < dis_astranagant> It'll be interesting to see all the bitching about "mace races" next version, once people realize how easy it is to get a demon whip
05:00 < Xiberia> have they been made more common?
05:00 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-185-252.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
05:00 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA
05:00 < dis_astranagant> no, but they never really were all that uncommon
05:01 < dis_astranagant> I usually see 2 or 3 of them laying on the ground, plus the ones that drop off certain demons
05:01 < ogaz> hell knights and some uniques can have them, and if worse comes to worse you can get one out of geh
05:02 < TGW> dis_astranagant: well, the no-brainer is speed vs other brands
05:02 < dis_astranagant> Do hell knights still generate with impossible mega weapons?
05:02 < TGW> sure it's interesting choosing pla now, but like you're never going to use anything but that glaive of speed
05:02 < dis_astranagant> dragonslaying glaives/bardiches have their uses
05:02 < ogaz> dis_astranagant: I think so
05:03 < TGW> if by "uses" you mean "dealing less damage in exchange for worse rmsl"
05:03 < dis_astranagant> as do holy wrath (though they're rare as hen's teeth)
05:03 < Vandal> ooh
05:03 < Vandal> due if you're here, Sludge Elf hp would be better than the DE/Ke I was mentioning
05:04 < Vandal> I didn't realize there was another degree that was less than human level
05:04 < Vandal> Moving to DE/Ke wouldn't really be very noticable
05:04 < TGW> is there a niche in an armour-proficient small race?
05:04 <+sorear> DD!
05:05 < Vandal> Maybe?  Dwarves are already kind of on the small side I thought
05:05 <+sorear> dis_astranagant: this is but one more swing of the pendulum
05:05 <+sorear> dis_astranagant: back in 0.1 and 0.2, everyone was mace crazy
05:05 < Vandal> The problem would be finding armor small enough to fit them in a dungeon full of human-sized humanoids
05:05 <+sorear> the devteam decided to fix this blatant imbalance with one change
05:05 < ogaz> small races can use any armour
05:05 < ogaz> tiny race can't
05:05 <+sorear> they made dire flails two-handed
05:06 < Vandal> yeah ogaz, I'm just saying it is easy to justify why 'small' are not good at it
05:06 < Vandal> they can put it on, but it doesn't exactly fit like a glove in my mind
05:06 < dis_astranagant> sorear, what are you smoking?  No one used maces back then, either.  People thought I was nuts for trying
05:06 < dis_astranagant> shields didn't even come into vogue till 0.3ish
05:07 <+sorear> dis_astranagant: I wasn't around back then, I only know of this from the discussion that led to the dire flails nerf
05:07 < dis_astranagant> prior to that the conventional apprach was to pick up the biggest 2h you could find and stick with it
05:07 < ogaz> !lg * winning cv<=0.2 s=sk
05:07 < Henzell> 211 games for * (winning cv<=0.2): 44x Conjurations, 25x Axes, 15x Unarmed Combat, 14x Long Blades, 13x Staves, 12x Maces & Flails, 9x Dodging, 9x Necromancy, 9x Short Blades, 6x Enchantments, 6x Polearms, 5x Invocations, 5x Summonings, 5x Fighting, 4x Stabbing, 4x Earth Magic, 4x Spellcasting, 4x Fire Magic, 3x Evocations, 3x Transmigration, 3x Ice Magic, 2x Air Magic, 2x Translocations, 2x Bows,...
05:07 < Vandal> !tell due If you're still intersted in changing Halfling hp, consider Sludge Elf formula, it would be more noticable without becoming "human"
05:07 < Henzell> Vandal: OK, I'll let due know.
05:07 <+sorear> I think I'll get rid of HP formulas
05:08 < dis_astranagant> lotsa UC wins
05:08 < ogaz> still twice as many axes wins as M&F wins
05:08 < Vandal> sorear, what would you base hp on? just class?
05:08 < dis_astranagant> and a couple more long blades ones
05:09 <+sorear> Vandal: I would stick a number in the race record for "additional HP by XL 27"
05:09 < TGW> vandal: dwarves are human-sized
05:09 < TGW> because apparently henzell doesn't know what a "dwarf" is
05:10 < Vandal> So.. like it is now except Sp would become the baseline instead of being below the 'norm' ?
05:10 < Vandal> and the other races would have bonuses relative to them?
05:10 < TGW> not like it is now, because the stupid varying rates wouldn't exist <3
05:10 <+sorear> TGW: this would be Ross; the size system postdates Henzell
05:10 < TGW> sorear: oh ok
05:10 < TGW> so spriggans used to be overpowered as fuck?
05:10 < Vandal> Well I know Dwarves are not considered a "small" race
05:10 <+sorear> TGW: also, dwarves usually have human-size torsos
05:10 <+sorear> and short limbs
05:10 < eith> TGW: hilariously overpowered
05:11 < Vandal> they're just the smallest of the 'human' sized
05:11 < Vandal> I would think
05:11 < Vandal> I mean that is what "dwarf" means
05:12 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
05:12 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
05:13 < AceTetra> you'd have to seriously cripple any race that gets intrinsic speed
05:15 <+doy> spriggans still are hilariously overpowered
05:15 < eith> well not so much now with the carrying nerf? although i havent played one proper
05:15 <+doy> nerfing hive should help with that, hopefully
05:16 < ogaz> what do you think of centaurs?
05:16 <+doy> i played a sphu after the carrying nerf, before it was semi-unnerfed again
05:16 <+doy> and won
05:16 <+doy> so
05:16 < eith> cool fair enough then
05:16 <+doy> i don't think the carrying nerf is really going to have much effect
05:16 < AceTetra> centaurs are exactly as awful as would compensate for their speed
05:16 < ogaz> ?!
05:16 < ogaz> centaurs are good, imo
05:16 < AceTetra> and i still pick CeFE when i want to leave some awful ghosts
05:17 <+doy> centaurs are good, but they're more balanced
05:17 < AceTetra> SpFE would die too soon
05:17 < dis_astranagant> SpVm leave annoying ghosts, till some MuNe comes along
05:18 < ogaz> I think Ce has the highest winrate out of any race, although this is probably because no one plays them
05:18 < dis_astranagant> CeHe was a fad a while back
05:18 <+doy> ogaz: they did, until dd came along
05:18 < ogaz> !won * ce
05:18 < Henzell> * (ce) has won 55 times in 5352 games (1.03%): 9xCeHe 7xCeFi 5xCePa 4xCeHu 3xCeAs 3xCeMo 2xCeBe 2xCeCK 2xCeCr 2xCeGl 2xCeWn 1xCeAE 1xCeAr 1xCeDK 1xCeEE 1xCeEn 1xCeFE 1xCeIE 1xCeNe 1xCePr 1xCeRe 1xCeTh 1xCeTm 1xCeVM 1xCeWr
05:18 < ogaz> !won * dd
05:18 < Henzell> * (dd) has won 64 times in 3118 games (2.05%): 13xDDNe 10xDDHe 9xDDCK 8xDDBe 6xDDDK 3xDDEE 2xDDAr 2xDDFi 1xDDAs 1xDDCr 1xDDEn 1xDDGl 1xDDIE 1xDDPa 1xDDPr 1xDDTm 1xDDVM 1xDDWn 1xDDWr
05:18 < AceTetra> ogaz: can i make a bot query for that?
05:18 <+sorear> Ce's winrate is as high as it is mostly because it's the Official Race of Stabwound
05:18 < AceTetra> try cv=0.5
05:19 <+doy> !won * ce cv=0.5
05:19 < Henzell> * (ce cv=0.5) has won 14 times in 1536 games (0.91%): 2xCeAs 2xCeHu 1xCeAr 1xCeCK 1xCeEn 1xCeFE 1xCeFi 1xCeGl 1xCeIE 1xCePa 1xCeTm 1xCeVM
05:19 <+sorear> !won stabwound race=ce
05:19 < dis_astranagant> stabwound (I think) made a big streak with CeHe and everyone tried copying him
05:19 < Henzell> stabwound (race=ce) has won 11 times in 19 games (57.89%): 6xCeHe 1xCeAE 1xCeFi 1xCeHu 1xCeRe 1xCeWn
05:19 <+doy> !won * dd cv=0.5
05:19 < Henzell> * (dd cv=0.5) has won 64 times in 2914 games (2.20%): 13xDDNe 10xDDHe 9xDDCK 8xDDBe 6xDDDK 3xDDEE 2xDDAr 2xDDFi 1xDDAs 1xDDCr 1xDDEn 1xDDGl 1xDDIE 1xDDPa 1xDDPr 1xDDTm 1xDDVM 1xDDWn 1xDDWr
05:19 < Vandal> I can't remember what He is..
05:19 < ogaz> healer
05:19 <+doy> !wtf he
05:19 < Henzell> High Elf or Healer
05:19 < Vandal> oh, that would explain it
05:19 < AceTetra> ok why is dd so awesome
05:19 < Vandal> never tried them
05:19 < ogaz> it guaranteed him getting to temple where he would switch to okawaru
05:20 < AceTetra> dd has so many differences from other races, that it is amazingly overpowered
05:20 < Vandal> Is Healer a challenge mode or something?
05:20 < eith> no, healers are good
05:20 < ogaz> healer is an easy class
05:20 < eith> very good even
05:20 < dis_astranagant> DD is awesome because not healing is pretty easy to circumvent and they have amazing powers to make up for it
05:20 < Vandal> oh
05:20 < AceTetra> right, dd's powers are too amazing
05:20 < Vandal> Yeah I think it was assumed that the non-healing would be more crippling than it ended up being
05:20 < eith> yes
05:21 < dis_astranagant> the gimme healing wand plus self recharging and magic mapping was a little over the top
05:21 < AceTetra> so amazing that i'm surprised a dd hasn't already claimed the orb when i get there
05:21 < Vandal> I mean, my most successful characters were ones that either never got hurt in the first place (Cj) or had enough armor to negate most damage
05:21 < dis_astranagant> plus the free rN+ and ~+8 ac
05:22 < AceTetra> the damage shaving mechanic is almost over the top
05:22 < Eronarn> sorear: initial draft of monster language http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:language
05:22 < dis_astranagant> It's just ~4-8 ac that applies to everything
05:22 < dis_astranagant> and has some goofy long tail behavior for kicks
05:23 < dis_astranagant> so it can spike to something like 30 reduction
05:24 < Ashenzari> Eronarn created page Monster Language at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:language
05:25 < Eronarn> imo DD should lose god/vamp healing, lose rN+, lose mapping, be unable to use recharging in combat - but then get buffed from there until they're competitive (a DD without non-consumable healing sources is fairly hard right now, actually)
05:25 < dis_astranagant> the big problem with DD is that removing any of the main broken parts pretty much turns them into a healer only race
05:26 <+doy> yeah, i tried playing a couple dds without a healing god, and it actually is hard
05:27 <+sorear> Eronarn: thanks
05:28 < AceTetra> oh wow they got mapping too? that is definitely over the top
05:28 < dis_astranagant> trog healing is near worthless until gift piety, vampiric weapons are broken for everyone, and Makhleb healing is generally weak
05:29 <+doy> trog healing is fine, as long as that's the only thing you spend piety on
05:29 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
05:29 < dis_astranagant> it does very little early on
05:29 <+doy> just don't expect to be using bia or getting gifts very often
05:29 <+doy> eh, i won a ddbe pretty easily
05:29 <+doy> using mainly trog healing
05:30 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left ##crawl-dev []
05:30 < ogaz> ddbe seems to be the ultimate speedrunning combo
05:30 < eith> ddbe are the speed run race sure
05:30 <+doy> it does help that berserk effectively cuts damage in half again, on top of dd's damage reduction
05:31 < Eronarn> sorear: by the way, i do have more specific details (i think the list of phrases i have is like, 8 or 10 at the moment) - i just didn't want to write anything else until the initial idea is read over
05:32 <+doy> that monster language stuff looks insane
05:32 <+doy> i have no idea if that's a good thing or a bad thing yet
05:32 < dis_astranagant> well, it is Eronarn :P
05:32 <+doy> (:
05:32 < Eronarn> doy: it'll be a good thing if and only if it is restricted to a handful of cases
05:32 < Eronarn> it will suck very bad if people put it on every monster that shows up in groups
05:33 < dis_astranagant> when has any cosmetic feature ever successfully been restricted to a handful of cases?
05:33 <+sorear> I think it'll get pared down a lot before final implementation
05:34 < Eronarn> i wouldn't really call it cosmetic :P
05:34 < Eronarn> but - elemental colors are only on a few monsters, for example
05:34 < Eronarn> or trailing clouds
05:44 < Vandal> coolest new racial trait I have thought of so far:
05:45 < Vandal> Wanderlust - movement speed 8 when wielding a quarterstaff to assist you in your journey
05:45 < ogaz> I, too, enjoy swapping weapons all the time
05:46 < Vandal> This would be in conjunction with staves becoming a viable 2H weapon
05:47 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has quit []
05:48 < Vandal> Maybe add a few turns delay before the effect kicks in
05:49 < Vandal> Like 9 speed for 5 turns, then 8
05:49 < Xiberia> out of combat movement speed boost sounds ok
05:50 < Vandal> The overall idea of a Stave using Halfling would be in conjuction with Bows
05:50 < Vandal> as opposed to slings + swords + shields
05:50 < eith> !apt ha bows
05:50 < Henzell> Ha (SK_BOWS)=70
05:50 < eith> oh eh, i thought they were terrible with them =p
05:50 < Eronarn> Vandal: this is a really bad idea
05:50 < Vandal> Which part of it?
05:51 < Eronarn> making halflings move faster, making it depend on wielding a specific item, making it have a weird kick-in time
05:52 <+doy> yeah, that seems like a really artificially forced playstyle
05:52 < Vandal> I guess you'd have to see the whole list
05:52 < Vandal> I'm not trying to force a play style so much as offer an equally attractive alternative to using a shield
05:52 < Vandal> and stabbing
05:53 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
05:53 < Vandal> shield + sword + sling is a very versatile and strong setup in my mind
05:53 < Eronarn> if your race has a "whole list" of one-off abilities like that it's probably not going to fly
05:53 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left ##crawl-dev []
05:53 < Eronarn> note that most races have very self-explanatory abilities
05:54 < Vandal> Well I am making a whole list because inevitable some (or most) will get shot down
05:54 < Eronarn> HP/MR/stealth modifiers; size effects; aptitudes; racial bonuses sometimes; mutations (which are generaly simple to understand)
05:54 < Vandal> I'd say Demonspawn are way more complicated to understand than Wanderlust
05:55 < Vandal> I'm actually intimidated by them
05:55 < Vandal> I'd also say Draconians are in that boat
05:55 < ogaz> DS concept is very simple to understand and you don't need to know all the details to play them
05:55 < Eronarn> not particularly; they get a certain number of mutations, and mutations are pretty much self-explanatory
05:55 < eith> they are one of the most popular newbie races
05:55 < Vandal> Seems like you have to be a very adaptive player to appreciate DS
05:55 < Eronarn> yes they can have rather complex formulas behind them, but you can play a DS for the first time and know what's going on
05:56 < Eronarn> "i get random badass abilities when i level up"
05:56 < Vandal> Like not go into it with a game plan in mind
05:56 < Vandal> Which is the opposite of how I do things
05:56 < ogaz> that's fine, then DS is not the race for you
05:56 < eith> well think like a normal player then, not a min-maxer
05:56 < Vandal> I do appreciate them :)
05:56 < Vandal> DS are an awesome concept
05:57 < Eronarn> compare this to your ability proposal: halflings get a bonus because <flavor reason> even though there isn't really any reason for it to work that way from a realism or a flavor perspective, also they have to wield a specific item to do it
05:57 < Vandal> Well, from a flavor perspective, most Halflings travel on foot
05:57 < Vandal> they're used to it and good at it
05:57 < Eronarn> the nearest "weird" racial ability like that i can think of: vampires can make potions of blood, which you can sublimation of blood to turn into potions of decay, which you can evaporate to turn into miasma
05:58 < Vandal> and this does not involve anything about their feet
05:58 < Eronarn> note that this isn't even a racial ability, just a consequence of a very simple racial ability
05:58 < ogaz> at least in 0.5.2, vp sublimation doesn't create potions of decay
05:58 -!- Vandal [n=dissiden@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has left ##crawl-dev []
05:58 -!- Vandal [n=dissiden@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
05:58 < Vandal> woops
05:58 < Eronarn> ogaz: i think it might've gotten removed for being too powerful
05:58 < Vandal> sorry about that, dunno what I missed
05:58 < Eronarn> it's not vp sublimation specifically that does it
05:58 < ogaz> evaporating potions of blood is still cool, though
05:59 < Eronarn> but sublimation *on* a potion of blood, which vamps get a lot of
05:59 < Vandal> and, Eronarn I guess I should not talk about stuff out of context
05:59 < ogaz> it can make a 3x3 area of fire
05:59 < Vandal> None of it will make tons of sense without seeing everything
05:59 < ogaz> also, sublimating potions of blood does not leave you with decay potions in 0.5.2
06:00 < Eronarn> Vandal: bad ideas don't become good even if you surround them with good ideas. there is no way that the bonus you propose would fit in racial design
06:00 < Vandal> but even in the context of right now, the only melee weapon Halflings are good with ar swords
06:00 < Vandal> They'd get a better Stave apt and there would need to be some changes to Staves themselves into a viable weapon type
06:01 < Vandal> So really it is about encouraging an alternative
06:01 <+sorear> WHY
06:01 < Vandal> because it would be fun to play
06:01 < Vandal> :D
06:01 < Eronarn> giving them a racial bonus to moving faster when wielding a weapon doesn't even mean they're "good with staves", though, it's "for some reason halflings can run 25% faster than a human even though they have much shorter legs but only if they're carrying a stick"
06:01 < eith> it doesnt sound fun, it sounds like i have to find and keep swapping a staff
06:01 <+sorear> ok, we need a channel split
06:02 <+sorear> everybody who wants to talk about halflings, get your own channel
06:02 <+sorear> there is *far* too much Ha discussion here
06:02 < Eronarn> yeah
06:02 <+sorear> I can't get any input on other questions
06:02  * eith nods
06:02 < Eronarn> let's talk about the AC revamp instead
06:02 < Vandal> Sorry
06:02 < Eronarn> since there are formulas for it on the wiki now
06:03 < Eronarn> or you could all give me feedback about jiyva mutations
06:04 <+sorear> oh, jivya mutations
06:04 <+sorear> ?
06:10 < Eronarn> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:jiyva bottom
06:10 <+due> ...bottom?
06:10 < Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
06:10 <+due> !messages
06:10 < Henzell> (1/1) Vandal said (1h 3m 11s ago): If you're still intersted in changing Halfling hp, consider Sludge Elf formula, it would be more noticable without becoming "human"
06:11 < Eronarn> due: bottom of the page
06:11 <+due> Ah.
06:21 < ogaz> Eronarn: wrt to jiyva mutations, what about "Your stomach acids are stronger"(or something like that), which gives saprovore?
06:24 < Eronarn> ogaz: not particularly flavorful... there's already the eat-items mutation, which makes food worth less nutrition. one that just gave saprovore would actually be contrary to how slimes eat
06:25 <+sorear> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:internal:save_files#plan_jan_2010
06:25 < Eronarn> i wonder... maybe jiyva should mutate undead followers, too
06:26 < Eronarn> possibly with slime mutations only
06:26 <+due> slimey wimey?
06:26 <+due> sorear: Reading.
06:26 < Eronarn> you could even have particular undead-slime mutations, like eating corpses to produce miasma
06:27 < Eronarn> the way death oozes do
06:29 <+due> sorear: Looks really good.
06:29 <+due> Eronarn: That was me. :>
06:29 <+due> I wanted death oozes to leave behind clouds of miasma, but dpeg vetoed it; so I suggested their eating creates miasma clouds!
06:31 < ogaz> having special jiyva mutations which are the only way undead can mutate sounds cool
06:32 < Eronarn> due: fwiw it could stand to be like, a 3x3 cloud of miasma, 100% center tile, 50% other tiles
06:32 < Eronarn> it's wimpy right now
06:32 <+due> It's flavour-only at the minute, actually.
06:33 < Eronarn> oh, okay
06:34 <+sorear> I like the Jiyva mutations
06:42 < Eronarn> that's the first useful feedback on them i've gotten :P
06:43 <+doy> "useful"?
06:43 <+doy> (:
06:47 <+sorear> How many am I supposed to get?
06:47 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
06:48 < Eronarn> what, Jiyva mutations?
06:49 <+sorear> eys
06:49 <+sorear> at a time
06:49 <+sorear> 3 total ranks?
06:49 <+sorear> 6? 9? 15?
06:50 < Eronarn> in the current jiyva mut system, i'd say - given randomly as any other mutation, but higher weight, and can't be removed with Remove Bad Mutations
06:50 <+sorear> it's amazing how much of Crawl I have *never looked at before*
06:50 <+doy> crawl is pretty big
06:50 < Eronarn> but i favor a non-totally-random jiyva mut system
06:50 <+due> crawl is craaazy
06:51 < Eronarn> in which case i'd favor jelliness going in and out in waves
06:51 < Eronarn> since the jelly muts are highly tree-like compared to other mutations
06:54 < Vandal> Do monsters have size classifications like player races do?
06:54 <+sorear> ... crawl has a function named yyparse?
06:54 < Eronarn> some jiyva abilities could also become jiyva mutations - like the "split off slime when badly injured" - this would let jiyva have many more abilities, but fewer of them concurrently
06:54 <+due> Vandal: Yes.
06:54 < Vandal> Thanks :)
06:54 < elly> sorear: it uses yacc?
06:54 <+sorear> Vandal: yes, but even less of the game uses it
06:54 < Eronarn> Vandal: monster size is screwed up enugh to be unusable
06:54 <+due> S_SMALL, etc.
06:54 <+due> Or something like that.
06:54 <+sorear> elly: yes, but I thought everybody renamed it to something more sensible
06:54 < elly> evidently not :P
06:54 <+due> IT's only available via the monster class spec, though.
06:56 <+sorear> !source maps.cc:1103
06:56 < Henzell>  the  (L0 ),  in  on -01-, with 0 points after 0 turns and 0:00:00.
06:56 <+sorear> !source maps.cc:1103
06:56 < Henzell>  the  (L0 ),  in  on -01-, with 0 points after 0 turns and 0:00:00.
06:56 <+due> WTF?
06:56 < elly> "?"
06:56 <+sorear> !lg
06:56 < Henzell> 3189. sorear2 the Exhumer (L1 OgPr), worshipper of Yredelemnul, quit the game on D:1 on 2009-12-24, with 26 points after 37 turns and 0:00:22.
06:56 <+sorear> !lg *
06:56 < Henzell> 501084. berise the Skirmisher (L3 HuCr), slain by a hobgoblin (a +0,+0 club) on D:2 on 2010-01-06, with 98 points after 1589 turns and 0:02:01.
06:57 <+sorear> !source crawl-ref/source/maps.cc:1103
06:57 < Henzell> Couldn't open current/source/crawl-ref/source/maps.cc for reading
06:57 <+sorear> !source source/maps.cc:1103
06:57 < Henzell> Couldn't open current/source/source/maps.cc for reading
06:57 <+due> Henzell bork :(
06:57 < elly> !source ./maps.cc:1103
06:57 < Henzell>  the  (L0 ),  in  on -01-, with 0 points after 0 turns and 0:00:00.
06:57 <+doy> that is quite confusing
06:57 < elly> no idea :P
06:57 <+sorear> clearly it's outputing an empty logentry
06:57 < elly> !source /etc/passwd
06:57 < Henzell> Couldn't understand /etc/passwd
06:57 <+doy> oh, right
06:57 < elly> aw
06:57 <+sorear> the numeric fields are 0, except for the month, which is munged
06:57 < elly> !source /etc/passwd:1
06:57 < Henzell> Couldn't understand /etc/passwd:1
06:57 < elly> rats
06:57 <+doy> henzell has a special case for that
06:58 <+sorear> !source ../../../../../../../etc/passwd:1
06:58 < Henzell> Bad filename: ../../../../../../../etc/passwd
06:58 <+doy> so maps.cc:1103 is a blank line
06:58 <+sorear> that used to work
06:58 <+sorear> :>
06:58 < elly> !source maps.cc:1102
06:58 < Henzell>  the  (L0 ),  in  on -01-, with 0 points after 0 turns and 0:00:00.
06:58 <+due> !source mon-data.h
06:58 < Henzell> Lines pasted to http://pastebin.com/m2c1952c3
06:58 < elly> !source maps.cc:1
06:58 < Henzell> /*
06:58 < elly> aha
06:58 <+due> Vandal: ---^ Click that pastebin link.
06:58 <+doy> the henzell api says that if you output a blank line followed by game data in some format, it'll format it as a logfile entry
06:59 <+sorear> in any event, the line I'm referring to is '    extern int yyparse(void);'
06:59 <+sorear> who puts declarations like that in the middle of a function
06:59 < elly> haters
06:59 <+doy> awesome people, that's who
07:00 <+due> wtf
07:00 <+due> How odd.
07:00 <+sorear> what?
07:00 <+due> Why... is that there?
07:01 <+doy> due: because people don't like headers, apparently
07:01 <+due> I hate headers.
07:01 <+due> cf enum.h
07:02 <+sorear> there's this movement to make all player-centric functionality methods of the player object
07:02 <+sorear> that means putting 80% of the Crawl API in (the transitive closure of) one header
07:03 <+due> Can't you split it across multiple headers, thoguh?
07:03 <+due> Or is that just splitting player functions across multiple files?
07:03 <+due> I don't recall.
07:03 <+sorear> you could split it, but it would do no good
07:04 <+sorear> C++ specifies that in any given file, if any declaration of class player is given, it must be the same
07:04 <+sorear> thus, every file that needs to access the player needs to include the entire declaration
07:04 <+due> Ah.
07:04 <+due> :/
07:04 <+due> C++ sucks in this regard.
07:04 <+doy> well
07:05 <+doy> this also possibly points to the player object having too much stuff in it
07:05 <+sorear> but the player *is* the center of the universe
07:05 <+doy> true, i haven't actually looked at things at all
07:06 < Eronarn> sorear: this works all well and good until we add Dowan & Duvessa as a player race where you and a friend team up
07:06 <+doy> oh well, bashing c++ is fun too
07:06 <+sorear> Eronarn: I'm actually planning to do crawl -deathmatch for 0.7 or 0.8
07:07 <+sorear> multiple player objects means that using globals for player state won't cut it anymore
07:08 < Eronarn> sorear: we should have deathmatch and team deathmatch sections of the tourney, then
07:09 < Eronarn> ctf would also be pretty hilarious, use the orb chamber half of zot twice with Abyss terrain in the middle
07:09 <+doy> yeah, people should do more things like zot defense
07:10 < Eronarn> doy: language proposal + player can see what his allies can see + 't' from X map = crawl turn based strategy
07:12 < Eronarn> Has anyone had any ideas for fixing hellfire?
07:12 <+due> Destroy it.
07:12 < Eronarn> heh
07:12 <+due> Eronarn: Also, turn based crawl = rejected.
07:13 < Eronarn> due: ...what?
07:13 <+doy> yeah, we want real time crawl!
07:14 <+doy> also, what's wrong with hellfire?
07:14 < Eronarn> doy: it behaves totally unlike fire and totally unlike the Hells to boot
07:14 < ogaz> unmissable, unresistable damage that hits really hard?
07:14 <+doy> Eronarn: behaving totally unlike fire is the point though
07:14 <+doy> not sure what you mean by "totally unlike the hells"
07:14 < Eronarn> joke :P
07:15 <+doy> heh
07:15 < ogaz> if nothing else, the name is bad because it makes sound like rF helps against it
07:15 < Eronarn> doy: I like how Cerebov's hellflaming sword works: lowers effective rF+ of the target by one
07:15 <+doy> that's somewhat fair
07:16 < Eronarn> i hate how hellfire works: nothing to do with fire at all, extremely loud, too many things use it, they spam it, AC protects against it for some reason
07:16 <+doy> well
07:16 <+doy> ac protects against it because ac protects against everything
07:16 < Eronarn> smite :P
07:17 <+doy> well, there are special cases
07:17 <+doy> d:
07:17 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
07:17 <+doy> but ac protecting against hellfire is a case of hellfire not being a special case
07:18 <+doy> and not that many things use it either
07:18 <+doy> hellions, elf sorcerers, fiends
07:18 <+doy> what else?
07:18 <+doy> pit fiends
07:18 < Eronarn> zealots
07:18 <+doy> ah, right
07:18 <+doy> so... 5 monsters?
07:19 < Eronarn> azrael
07:19 <+doy> azrael does?
07:19 <+doy> that's kinda weird
07:19 < Eronarn> also anything that summons hellfire-users
07:19 <+doy> i don't really think azrael should
07:19 < Eronarn> which is... the rest of it
07:19 < Eronarn> @??azrael
07:19 < Gretell> Azrael (E) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 88 | AC/EV: 10/5 | Damage: 12 | Flags: demonic, lev | Res: magic(44), fire+++, poison | Vul: cold | XP: 1588 | Sp: b.fire, sticky flame, fireball, hellfire, hellfire burst.
07:19 <+doy> yeah
07:19 <+doy> azrael having hellfire is strange to me
07:19 <+due> Oh, hm.
07:19 <+due> Blowguns are slowed by bucklers. Bugger.
07:20 <+due> That makes slings+buckler+blowgun pointless.
07:20 < Eronarn> due: slowing isn't really that bad
07:21 <+due> Yeah.
07:21 <+due> Okay, new sling brands and stuff... HaHu is viable.
07:21 <+due> Ah jesus, I hate zaba
07:21 < Eronarn> new sling brands?
07:22 <+due> Er, sling bullet brands.
07:24 < Eronarn> ricocheting!
07:24 <+due> ... RIcocheting sounds fun.
07:27 < Eronarn> It definitely would be, especially in corridors (oh wait that's everything else in this game)
07:27 < Vandal> also, thanks Eronarn for talking in into reworking that racial thing
07:28 < Vandal> I have a better theme for it now
07:28 < Vandal> talking me into, that is
07:28 < Vandal> man I skip words a lot lately, I wonder if I'm getting senile in my dotage
07:28 < Vandal> or maybe it is just 1:30 am
07:29 <+due> go to bed :)
07:29 < Vandal> I can now
07:29 < Vandal> The basic outline is pretty much complete
07:30 <+due> I should go back up and take out Siggy.
07:32 <+due> Man, sling bullets are great now that they actually show up.
07:33 <+sorear> azreal uses MST_DRAC_SCORCHER
07:33 < Eronarn> due: Did you make sling bullets throwable? They really should be.
07:34 <+due> Kinda.
07:34 <+sorear> Eronarn: My personal favorite is to axe hellfire as an element; it reeks of power spiral.  "rF+++ is overpowered, these 1s need something that can pass it"
07:35 <+sorear> Then we can give Fiends fireball and hellions a watered-down Fire Storm
07:35 <+sorear> since rF+++ is nerfed
07:36 < Eronarn> sorear: i'd be fine with that; i think there's design space for a non-pure-rF+++ fire (like with that one new spell I proposed)
07:36 < Eronarn> but that it doesn't have to be hellfire
07:37 < ogaz> Couldn't you just use bolt of magma?
07:37 <+sorear> crawl already has a half-rF, half-phys element - lava
07:38 <+sorear> it's used by lava snake spit, bolt of magma, and firestorm
07:38 <+sorear> actually it's more like 65% phys
07:38 < Eronarn> well, strictly, that's a physical attack that also happens to be very hot :P rather than a "fire that burns differently"
07:38 < Eronarn> which fantasy is chock full of
07:38 < Eronarn> heck, dominions 3 has at least three of them i'm pretty sure
07:46 < dis_astranagant> Crawl has 3 "fires" already, 4 if you count napalm.  No need for more
07:47 < dis_astranagant> Plus "dom 3 has it" is a pretty flimsy excuse, since dom 3 has damn near everything
07:47 <+sorear> only two flaming elements though
07:47 <+sorear> fire and hellfire
07:47 < Eronarn> yeah, i'm saying if we got rid of hellfire it would open up room for not_hellfire
07:48 < Eronarn> not that we necessarily have to add something
07:48 <+due> Steam, napalm, fire and hellfire?
07:48 < dis_astranagant> forgot about steam
07:48  * due gone.
07:48 <+sorear> cleansing flame
07:48 <+sorear> but cleansing flame does holy energy elemental damage
07:49 <+sorear> and napalm does ordinary fire damage
07:49 < dis_astranagant> Is there really a niche for say 70% resistable fire that isn't already filled by lava?
07:50 <+sorear> Eronarn proposed a 50% rF 50% rN darkfire element once long ago
07:50 <+sorear> to be used *only* for the ghosts of red draconians
07:50 < dis_astranagant> feels like complexity for it's own sake
07:51 < Eronarn> oh, yeah i forgot that one
07:51 < Eronarn> spectral/undead versions of all the drac breath weapons
07:51 < dis_astranagant> oh yeah, I remember that long FR about half x half neg breaths
07:52 <+sorear> ok I think I understand the map cache system now
07:52 < dis_astranagant> Seems like a lot of work for the ghosts of nearly nonexistant players
07:53 < dis_astranagant> Though "only" is a fairly short lived adjective around here
07:53 < Eronarn> when do i ever propose anything that isn't a lot of work
07:53 < dis_astranagant> well, that's not even really that much work other than seeming kinda pointless
07:54 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r2505636ce4d1 /crawl-ref/source/spells4.cc: Indentation fixes.
07:54 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r7b3d55216034 /crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Update the change log.
07:54 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r8535e71feb31 /crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Fix a typo, remove some of the more minor changes from the change log.
07:54 < Eronarn> dis_astranagant: lichform, and non-ghost undead draconian monsters
07:54 < Eronarn> and could be given to skeletal dragons
07:55 <+sorear> skeletal dragons have a niche, they're the most indestructable of the slow melee monsters and have the highest HP of any non-unique save for greater mummies
07:55 <+sorear> !lg * place=Zot killer=skeletal dragon
07:55 < dis_astranagant> I was about to make the same point
07:55 < Henzell> 3. Nikinyo the Bewitcher (L18 SpEn), worshipper of Makhleb, slain by a skeletal dragon on Zot:4 on 2009-08-25, with 182559 points after 23025 turns and 3:32:50.
07:55 <+sorear> !lg * place=Zot killer=skeletal dragon -2
07:55 < Henzell> 2. Napkin the Farming Annihilator (L27 DECj), worshipper of Okawaru, slain by a skeletal dragon on Zot:1 on 2008-02-12, with 1036375 points after 213636 turns and 45:53:24.
07:55 <+sorear> !lg * place=Zot killer=skeletal dragon -3
07:55 < Henzell> 1. sawtooth the Stickfighter (L22 DSGl), worshipper of Makhleb, slain by a skeletal dragon on Zot:5 on 2007-01-21, with 422245 points after 64979 turns and 12:29:37.
07:56 <+sorear> sawtooth got stuck between two of the things in a corridor with Cekugon
07:56 < dis_astranagant> They probably have few kills to their name, but they're amazing walls
07:56 < Eronarn> i dunno, i've never really found them a problem myself
07:56 < Eronarn> they feel quite bland
07:57 < dis_astranagant> @?? skeletal dragon
07:57 < Gretell> skeletal dragon (D) | Speed: 8 | HD: 20 | Health: 160-320 | AC/EV: 20/4 | Damage: 30, 20, 20 | Flags: undead, evil, sense invisible, fly | Res: magic(106), fire, cold, elec++, poison | XP: 2360.
07:57 < Eronarn> @??iron troll
07:57 < Gretell> iron troll (T) | Speed: 7 | HD: 16 | Health: 48-128 | AC/EV: 20/4 | Damage: 35, 25, 25 | Res: magic(106), fire, cold | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 827.
07:57 < dis_astranagant> they're a faster iron troll with better resists and more than double hp
07:57 < ogaz> skeletal dragons are tougher than the royal jelly
07:58 < Eronarn> ogaz: not even close
07:58 < dis_astranagant> @?? greater mummy
07:58 < Gretell> greater mummy (M) | Speed: 10 | HD: 15 | Health: 175-220 | AC/EV: 10/6 | Damage: 35 | Flags: undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(immune), cold, elec++, poison | XP: 7609 | Sp: demon, smiting, torment symbol, summon undead.
07:58 < ogaz> @??the royal jelly
07:58 < Gretell> the royal jelly (J) | Speed: 16 | HD: 21 | Health: 230 | AC/EV: 8/4 | Damage: 50(acid), 30(acid) | Flags: sense invisible | Res: magic(196), poison, acid+++, asphyx | XP: 15000.
07:58 <+sorear> ogaz: in a "requires more short blade hits to kill" sense
07:59 < Eronarn> royal jelly is brutal and spawns things when you hit it
07:59 <+sorear> Did greater mummy HP get nerfed or was I always wrong
07:59 < ogaz> sorear: That's all that I meant
07:59 < dis_astranagant> I think you were always wrong
07:59 < ogaz> obviously the royal jelly is stronger overall
07:59 < dis_astranagant> Skeletal dragons have always been the brick of bricks
08:00 < dis_astranagant> hell, it was only recently that power creep started making tougher uniques than them
08:00 < dis_astranagant> @?? crystal golem
08:00 < Gretell> crystal golem (8) | Speed: 7 | HD: 13 | Health: 91-143 | AC/EV: 22/3 | Damage: 40 | Flags: non-living, see invisible | Res: magic(immune), fire+++, cold+++, elec+++, poison+++ | XP: 613.
08:00 <+sorear> -* Several new uniques.
08:00 <+sorear> +* Several cool new uniques.
08:00 <+sorear> :D jpeg
08:01 <+sorear> crystal golems should be immune to acid too
08:01 < dis_astranagant> indeed
08:01 < dis_astranagant> since crystal plate is acid resistant
08:02 < Eronarn> golems really need help
08:02 < Eronarn> they're just soooo boring
08:02 < dis_astranagant> maybe crystal plate should actually provide rCorr instead of only saving itself.  Might give people an excuse to use it over GDA
08:02 < Eronarn> and for rare / rarely used monsters that's awful
08:04 <+sorear> dis_astranagant: it provides 40% more AC, is that not enough
08:05 < Eronarn> sorear: not in the current AC system, maybe in the new one
08:06 < dis_astranagant> eh?  I'm only seeing 1 more ac
08:06 < dis_astranagant> 14 vs 13
08:06 < dis_astranagant> unless this has changed since stable
08:07 <+sorear> GDA is 10 AC now
08:07 < dis_astranagant> ah
08:07 < dis_astranagant> when did that happen?
08:07 < dis_astranagant> don't think that was the case when I won my ogres
08:07  * sorear git blame
08:08 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-114-135-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
08:08 < dis_astranagant> not sure I have a recent copy of master laying around, I haven't updated since I did all that griping about the windows build being broken months ago
08:08 <+sorear> e00f724d
08:08 <+sorear> sep 09
08:08 <+sorear> also it's 11, not 10 :(
08:09 < dis_astranagant> hmm, maybe it is that way in my builds, then
08:09 < dis_astranagant> either way, a few more ac vs still good ac and 3 resists
08:10 < dis_astranagant> I generally prefer SDA over crystal plate, personally
08:11 < dis_astranagant> assuming I'm not in one of those games where you get multiple redundant sources of rElec early on
08:12 < dis_astranagant> plus crystal plate is insanely rare if you're not an okawarite
08:12 < dis_astranagant> not sure I've seen one on the ground this year
08:13 <+sorear> Eronarn: hey, re. DS, first you cry out against FRAIL BUT FAST and now you're proposing SLOW BUT OMNIRESISTANT?  I just noticed the inconsistency here
08:13 <+sorear> you said movement speed could not have balancing factors
08:13 < Eronarn> sorear: +movementspeed
08:14 < Eronarn> i don't think -movementspeed lategame is nearly as much of a disadvantage as +movespeed is an advantage
08:15 < Eronarn> there's also the factor that frail makes you less survivable wheres -movespeed doesn't directly do that
08:16 < Napkin> Moin!
08:16 < dis_astranagant> it might as well, especially if you're melee
08:16 <+sorear> since when does melee need to kite stuff
08:16 < Eronarn> dis_astranagant: no, it's a significant difference. frail inherently makes it more likely for you to die in any situation where you are at risk, this isn't the case for -movespeed
08:16 < dis_astranagant> you take more hits on the approach and have a harder time fleeing if you misjudge
08:17 < Napkin> Hmm, I suddenly get "-No other missiles available. Use F to throw any item." when pressing ")" - while "(" switches through u,v,w, wraps back to u and so on
08:17 < Eronarn> you can do stuff to significantly limit the situations in which movespeed is a penalty
08:18 < Eronarn> this isn't really the case with frail
08:18 < Eronarn> other than 'not get hit' in which case... why weren't you already trying to not get hit?
08:18 < Eronarn> so, yeah, frail is not a good DS balancing mut imo
08:18 <+sorear> Napkin: as the person most affected by this stuff, do you have any comments re: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:internal:save_files#plan_jan_2010 ?
08:22 < Napkin> well, autosaving "every few dozen turns" sounds harsh to me and could mean lot of I/O - and thus slowdowns. crawl is using a lot of resources already.
08:23 < Napkin> a single game easily creates as much load on the cpu as a tremulous server with 20 players.
08:24 < dis_astranagant> wow
08:24 < Napkin> not sure I understand "eliminate tags" while in the next sentence it says to save "save version"?
08:25 <+sorear> Napkin: it would be an optional feature.  Obviously no need on a box with CDO's reliability
08:25 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rafd40ce1147d /crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Fix more typos.
08:25 < Napkin> is that tag_major & tag_minor? if so, they are good for people with bugs, so they can transfer their game to the next version and don't have to quit.
08:26 <+sorear> no
08:26 <+sorear> the tags system divides the savefile into a bunch of chunks
08:26 <+sorear> then missing chunks can be constructed based on upgrade rules
08:27 <+sorear> minor versions do the same job better, and we haven't actually taken advantage of tags since b26 days
08:27 < Napkin> if you say it's still possible - sounds good to me
08:27 < Napkin> otherwise, I don't understand much of your techno babble ;))
08:28 < Napkin> technical view on the interna of saves, right?
08:28 <+sorear> yes
08:29 < Napkin> all i can think of right now that I need is the whereis file for gretell and a file to get timestamp of
08:30 < Napkin> damn... late and -7°C outside... gotta get ready for work. Later!
08:31 < Napkin> apart from that - saving it in a standard form like sqlite sounds terrific, sorear 
08:32 < dis_astranagant> only -7?  It was -17 when I decided to walk to the store this morning D:
08:32 <+sorear> where is dis_astranagant?
08:32 < Napkin> heh, I'd love to walk
08:32 < Napkin> but even at -7 59km to drive it pretty fun, believe me :-P
08:32 < dis_astranagant> Springfield, Missouri
08:33 < dis_astranagant> It's been bitter cold the past few days.  Near the end of the week the daytime high is something like 8F
08:34 < dis_astranagant> ~-13 C
08:34 < AceTetra> i live in seattle and when it gets less than freezing everyone skips work
08:35 < dis_astranagant> heh
08:35 < dis_astranagant> takes about 2 inches of ice for that to happen here
08:35 < AceTetra> "oh, there's frost on my car? well, calling in sick is less effort than scraping my windshield. fuck it."
08:38 < dis_astranagant> Hell, this university went from 1996 to 2006 without closing for the weather
08:38 < AceTetra> a street nearby didn't close for weather, even though it had like a 40% grade
08:39 < AceTetra> i nearly collided with the poor sucker behind me
08:39 <+Zaba> moin
08:39 < dis_astranagant> People got all up in arms about it when we had a fairly major ice storm and classes were still held, so the administration freaked the next time we had much more than flurries
08:40 < AceTetra> ungrateful bastard rolled down his window and yelled at me
08:40 < AceTetra> i was like, what the fuck? shut up and be glad you've still got a car asshole
08:40 <+Zaba> I'm like, what the fuck? This isn't ##crawl..
08:41 < AceTetra> Zaba: WASPS!
08:41 <+Zaba> and the last part of scrollback looks like somebody's merged ##crawl into here!
08:41 <+Zaba> right damn, magic!
08:42 <+Zaba> due, why do you hate me? :<
08:42 < Eronarn> Zaba: because you're made of wasps, clearly
08:42 < AceTetra> due doesn't hate
08:42  * dis_astranagant makes a D1 vault with multiple wasps barely contained
08:42 <+Zaba> 2010-01-06T09:21:35##crawl-dev: <+due> Ah jesus, I hate zaba
08:42 < AceTetra> hahahaha
08:42 <+Zaba> hatin' me, while I sleep... :/
08:43 < Eronarn> dis_astranagant: a vault with a bunch of giant bats renamed to "hairy grey wasps"
08:43 < dis_astranagant> lol
08:43 < Eronarn> your character doesn't have any biology skill, after all
08:43 < ogaz> What if it's a healer?
08:43 < elly> "You think this creature might be a bug."
08:44 < dis_astranagant> nah, real wasps that could be let out if you so much as breathe on the vault wrong
08:44 <+sorear> so what did zaba do to due
08:44 < dis_astranagant> maybe an old wall of statues to make you wonder just how big the damned things are
08:44 < Eronarn> bug report: killed a giant beetle on D:5. nothing else to report at this time
08:44 <+Zaba> sorear, I've no idea.
08:45 < Eronarn> dis_astranagant: just wait until small creatures are able to fit past statues
08:45 < Eronarn> "A statue of a beekeeper." + alarm trap
08:45 < Eronarn> "Suddenly, bees pour out from behind the statue!"
08:45 < AceTetra> ah god bees
08:46 < dis_astranagant> dammit, knew I should have memorized fire storm
08:49 < elly> Eronarn: beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees
08:50 < Eronarn> elly: kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
08:50 <+sorear> Bees are so small, they should be able to fit up to 5 in one grid
08:50 < elly> bees should be able to fit inside your equipment
08:50 < elly> and sting you when you wield it
08:50 <+sorear> mechanics are the same as slime creature merging, except that AC is applied N times
08:50 < elly> "The sword is covered in bees. Wield it anyway?"
08:51 <+sorear> elly: what if some of the bees are friendly
08:51 < Eronarn> 02:54 <+sorear> Bees are so small, they should be able to fit up to 5 in one grid <-- i have a proposal for this actually
08:51 < Eronarn> i just haven't posted it because dpeg wouldn't agree
08:52 < Eronarn> note, though, that killer bees are presumably killer giant bees
08:52 < elly> sorear: bees are never friendly
08:52 < Eronarn> (cat sized or so)
08:52 <+sorear> s/cat/golden dragon/
08:52 < elly> bees should be able to summon more bees
08:52 <+sorear> elly: They are if I summon them!
08:53 < elly> sorear: summoning bees just causes more bees
08:56 < Eronarn> elly: did you see the monster language proposal I wrote up? I want infinitely spawning bees in Hive with it.
08:57 < elly> link me?
08:57 < elly> bees should be able to cast Bolt of Bees
08:57 < elly> which is like Bolt of Iron, but never misses and spawns bees when it hits you
08:58 < Eronarn> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:language
09:02 < elly> jesus, ero, what the hell
09:03 <+Zaba> Eronarn, wtf
09:03 <+sorear> this is a template
09:04 < Eronarn> elly: not a fan?
09:04 < elly> no, I love it
09:04 < elly> but it's complicated as hell
09:04 <+sorear> it might miss 0.6
09:04 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
09:06 < dis_astranagant> [01:57:13] <elly> bees should be able to cast Bolt of Bees || sounds very KoL
09:07 < elly> sounds appropriate
09:08 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
09:08 < dis_astranagant> needs more beemancers
09:08 <+sorear> we have aquamancers now
09:09 < dis_astranagant> they would have beehives for hats and cast spells manupulating the bees
09:09 <+sorear> testudine apimancers? \o/
09:09 < dis_astranagant> that's just silly
09:09 < dis_astranagant> what do turtles have to do with bees?
09:12 < dis_astranagant> though the image of a turtle with a giant beehive on its back is amusing
09:13  * dis_astranagant hits the sack
09:20 < Eronarn> elly: i don't ever do anything that's not complicated
09:20 < Eronarn> if it weren't complicated it wouldn't be worth doing!
09:21 < elly> good call
09:21 <+Zaba> but it ends up being a hell of a mess
09:22 < Eronarn> depends what oyu mean by mess
09:25 <+due> Zaba: ant nest vault
09:26 <+Zaba> due, ooh
09:26 <+Zaba> but isn't it cute
09:26 <+due> s/cute/evil/g
09:34 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"]
09:35 <+due> Is there any reason why +0 armour other than gloves and cloaks generate cursed?
09:38 < AceTetra> curses are hi8larious that's why
09:39 < AceTetra> i try on some armour as an ogre and CRAP! IT'S CURSED!
09:39 < AceTetra> that's why we need cursed armour
09:42 < elly> we need cursed food
09:46 < elly> from ##crawl: typo at main.cc:3706
09:47 < AceTetra> ?? mantis
09:47 < Henzell> mantis[1/2]: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/
09:50 < CIA-81> zaba * reda4212fbf0f /crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Fix a typo in closing doors while levitating.
09:50 <+due> Zaba: Thanks :0
09:51 <+due> Zaba: There are some other bugs with that that need to be fixed, someone reported.
09:51 <+Zaba> I should look up at mantis, but right now it's timeouting for me.
09:51 <+Zaba> just like about everything else, really.
09:52 <+Zaba> I'm surprised at how quickly the push went.
09:52 < Eronarn> elly: we need randart food
09:53 <+due> Okay, I need to fix my bugs now.
09:54 <+due> sorear: do you think we could get monster status/player status for Henzell messages?
09:54 <+due> Or, "Duvessa (berserk)"
09:54 < elly> we do need randart food
09:54 <+due> "Killed by a giant snail while slowed".
09:55 <+due> I think berserk and confused would be enough.
09:55 <+due> killed by a centaur (confused).
09:58 <+sorear> due: it wouldn't be hard, no, but IIRC the idea was vetoed before.  Get me a yay from greensnark and I'll do it
09:58 <+due> Oh, hm.
09:58 <+Zaba> hmm
09:59 <+due> I think berserk and confused would be amusing to know.
09:59 <+due> The rest aren't important.
09:59 <+Zaba> is there any reason why staves are rods..
09:59 <+due> Like hasted...
09:59 <+sorear> due: Why do you hate Zaba?
09:59 <+due> sorear: The ant vault nearly killed me. :)
10:00 <+due> Also, I think "XYZ (masquerading as ABC)" during mislead might bbe good.
10:00 <+Zaba> well, rather, is there any reason why rods are staves.
10:00 <+sorear> due: Paralyzed and sleeping would also be interesting
10:00 <+sorear> Zaba: they both show up as | on screen
10:00 <+Zaba> sorear, and aside from that?
10:00 <+due> Yes, as player status.
10:00 <+Zaba> they're somewhat completely different in all other respects, as far as I can see.
10:01 <+Zaba> and staves are closer to weapons
10:01 <+sorear> it would be a huge savebreak to change this
10:01 <+due> To change them to what?
10:02 <+sorear> to separate the tvals
10:02  * sorear summons elly
10:02 <+Zaba> it's not like anyone cares about breaking saves in the middle of a development branch
10:04 < Eronarn> that reminds me
10:04 <+due> sorear: Would it still be a savebreak with the new save format?
10:04 < Eronarn> either rods should get put under wand acquirement, misc acquirement, or a new category; or there should be more evokable staves
10:05 < Eronarn> having rods under staff acquirement is counterintuitive and annoying
10:05 <+Zaba> why exactly is crazy yiuf a real unique?
10:05 <+Zaba> is it because of speech?
10:06 <+due> Because people are confused by named monsters that are not uniques.
10:06 <+due> And dpeg agreed because I spent so much time working on the speech and description :)
10:08 <+kilobyte> I wonder if it would be a good idea to have an entire band of monsters each with a different proper name, this may be the only case named monsters can work.
10:08 <+kilobyte> since the Crazy Yiuf experiment was clearly failed
10:09 <+due> Zaba: Also
10:09 <+due> !killsby Crazy Yiuf
10:09 < Henzell> 63 games for * (ckiller=Crazy Yiuf): 6x Eifeltrampel, 4x clouded, 3x heteroy, 3x Zicher, 3x FilthyApe, 3x TGW, 3x firem0nkey, 2x Karagy, 2x polystyrus, 2x KiloByte, 2x MarvinPA, 2x quru, 2x poop, 2x nubinia, 1x saren, 1x Squeegy, 1x Alejandro, 1x bejuryu, 1x Baccano, 1x Stathol, 1x N78291, 1x Ahrin, 1x fish, 1x Eronarn, 1x Cryptic, 1x Tityrus, 1x KillaB, 1x DashNine, 1x DrPraetor, 1x JeredCain, 1x...
10:09 <+due> Is 63 kills eough?
10:09 < Eronarn> kilobyte: at that point, why bother
10:10 <+kilobyte> _any_ early unique is going to get plenty of kills
10:11 <+due> !killsby Menkaure
10:11 < Henzell> 23 games for * (ckiller=Menkaure): 2x clouded, 2x Eifeltrampel, 2x Baccano, 2x KiloByte, 2x zergloli, 1x Lemuel, 1x minmay, 1x hyperbolic, 1x polystyrus, 1x Leibowitz, 1x TGW, 1x Vizrt, 1x MarvinPA, 1x Karagy, 1x heteroy, 1x LordSloth, 1x FilthyApe, 1x valrus
10:11 <+due> !killsby Purgy
10:11 < Henzell> 12 games for * (ckiller=Purgy): 2x FilthyApe, 2x Baccano, 1x TGW, 1x LordSloth, 1x Kyrris, 1x hash, 1x Azeral, 1x foolcircle, 1x clouded, 1x pingpong
10:11 <+due> They're both early uniques and hav ebeen in the game for far longer than Yiuf.
10:11 <+kilobyte> Menkaure has twice the minimal depth
10:11 <+due> Shrug.
10:12 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
10:12 < Eronarn> purgy is a bit boring
10:12 <+kilobyte> I wonder what's up with Purgy, I've seen him just twice.
10:13 <+due> He's weighted out of the main dungeon and into Sewer.
10:15 < CIA-81> due * rd1d617a234d8 /crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Give open/close messages full stops. (#336)
10:15 < CIA-81> due * re02bcd2c58b5 /crawl-ref/source/spl-book.cc: Fix "0 spell level left". (#335)
10:19 <+kilobyte> !lg * ktyp!=leaving ktyp!=quitting place=D s=place
10:19 < Henzell> 311073 games for * (ktyp!=leaving ktyp!=quitting place=D): 102520x D:1, 60419x D:2, 46338x D:3, 33124x D:4, 19215x D:5, 13666x D:6, 8367x D:7, 6830x D:8, 5344x D:9, 3773x D:10, 2884x D:11, 2126x D:$, 1869x D:12, 1243x D:13, 771x D:14, 558x D:15, 458x D:16, 335x D:17, 269x D:18, 190x D:19, 154x D:21, 127x D:20, 105x D:27, 87x D:22, 81x D:23, 77x D:24, 72x D:25, 69x D:26, 1x D:51, 1x D:59
10:20 <+kilobyte> there's twice as many people who could have met Yiuf compared to Menkaure
10:26 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"]
10:27 <+sorear> menkaure doesn't have a small chance of instantly killing you each turn in melee
10:27 <+kilobyte> actually, thrice as many, D:1 is depth=2 somehow
10:28 <+kilobyte> Menkaure is pretty brutal, with torment, nasty damage spells and melee
10:29 <+kilobyte> and Yiuf can zerk you :p
10:30 <+kilobyte> at D:2 abyssing equals death (save for especially lucky spriggans), yeah, but that's a really, really unlikely outcome
10:30 <+kilobyte> paralysis is more likely, that's the primary risk
10:31 <+kilobyte> the rest are just ordinary brands, no different from your random D:1 kobold
10:31 <+sorear> where did abyssing come in?
10:31 <+sorear> the paralysis chance is actually quite large
10:31 <+kilobyte> chaos can emulate distortion
10:32 <+sorear> I'm trying to find the duration for that
10:33 <+sorear> hehehehe paralysis duration is 2 + random2(6 + [DUR_PARALYSIS])
10:46 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@88-148-193-127.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:04 -!- by [n=rob@g225125141.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:04 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ
11:04 <+by> hi
11:04 <+sorear> hello
11:05 <+sorear> did anything become of AceTetra's statue bug?
11:05 < AceTetra> sorear: i forgot. what?
11:07 <+by> this: http://crawl.pastebin.com/m11e43da6
11:07 < AceTetra> oh shit, the aiming bug
11:07 <+by> in fact you _should_ see the location to the east of the statue
11:08 < AceTetra> i, uh, i haven't made a save about that bug yet
11:08 < AceTetra> but is it realy necessary?
11:08 <+sorear> why do you keep bringing it up
11:08 <+sorear> you're confusing us with your incoherency
11:09 < AceTetra> sorear: i only brought it up once
11:09 <+by> if there's a bug I'd like to fix it
11:09 < AceTetra> and i dunno about incoherency
11:09 < AceTetra> by: did you see the diagram i pasted?
11:09 <+by> yes
11:10 < AceTetra> oh ok cool
11:10 < AceTetra> that should do it then
11:10 <+sorear> AceTetra: you brought it up again on -ot
11:10 <+by> I recreated that situation in wizard mode, and I could in fact see the square east of the statue
11:10 <+by> so as far as I can tell, there is no bug
11:11 < AceTetra> by: ok, i could see it too, but it was definitely a bug
11:11 < AceTetra> i said it on ot?
11:11 <+sorear> ...what
11:11 <+sorear> yes you did
11:11 <+sorear> your memory is *gone*
11:11 <+by> AceTetra: but you're saying in the pastebin that it's a location you can't see
11:12 < AceTetra> ok, what did i do? i swear that report was valid
11:12 < AceTetra> i
11:12 < AceTetra> 'm looking at http://crawl.pastebin.com/m11e43da6
11:13 <+by> AceTetra: I believe that you found some bug, but either it's sporadic, or it's not what quite what you pasted
11:13 <+by> AceTetra: or, maybe, this was 0.5?
11:14 < AceTetra> well, i am using 0.5.2
11:14 <+by> ah.
11:15 <+by> probably best to file an issue in mantis in the future; you'll be encouraged to share that kind of information then :)
11:16 <+sorear> also, please make up your mind about crucial pieces of information
11:16 <+sorear> like whether you can see the square to the right of the statue
11:16 <+sorear> you've told us both yes and no
11:17 <+by> AceTetra: anyway, should be fixed in 0.6
11:18 <+sorear> in revision 4915a3d6, chaos was changed from never cloning angels, to only cloning angels
11:18 <+sorear> I think I like this change
11:18 <+by> nice
11:19 < AceTetra> sorear: i said both those?
11:19  * sorear wonders if the excessive shafting has been debugged yet
11:19 <+sorear> yes: 02:13 < AceTetra> by: ok, i could see it too, but it was definitely a bug
11:19 <+sorear> no: I couldn't see the location to the east of the statue,
11:19 < AceTetra> that's kinda ambiguous
11:20 <+by> what excessive shafting? I played with yiuf's staff yesterday and was shafted once at most
11:21 <+sorear> how long did you play with it for?
11:21 <+sorear> I was playing with Psyche's dagger, and got shafted* about six times per level cleared
11:21 < AceTetra> i like it when someone says i was an idiot and i said soomething inconsistent, but i just don't see it there
11:21 <+sorear> * thankfully, this was in a version where shafting crashed every time, so I didn't actually suffer
11:22 <+by> !lm char=spas uniq=~yiuf
11:22 <+sorear> I don't think you're an idiot
11:22 < Henzell> 2. [2010-01-05] rob the Sneak (L3 SpAs) killed Crazy Yiuf on turn 2305. (D:2)
11:22 <+by> !lg char=spas x=turn
11:22 < Henzell> 13. [turn=10371] rob the Covert (L9 SpAs), slain by a hippogriff on D:7 on 2010-01-05, with 2509 points after 10371 turns and 0:27:28.
11:22 < AceTetra> ugh gods which version crashed like that?
11:22 <+by> 8000 turns
11:23 <+sorear> the fix was 77ac156
11:23 <+sorear> by by
11:23 <+sorear> nov 26 2009
11:23 <+by> oh :)
11:23 < syllogism> I recreated that pastebin in 0.5 and I can see 7 but not the square east of statue
11:23 <+sorear> any version prior to that, but after timecircuits did the shaft overhaul, should have the bug
11:24 <+by> well, LOS model has changed since 0.5
11:24 < syllogism> yes
11:24 <+kilobyte> syllogism: even testing that is pointless, the ray code doesn't even slightly resemble the old one
11:24 < AceTetra> did someone mess with semi-random blink?
11:24 < syllogism> just saying
11:24 < AceTetra> i swear it used to fail more!
11:24 <+due> Hi.
11:25 < AceTetra> hello due
11:26 < AceTetra> so, anyway, semi-random blink. did someone mess with it?
11:26 < AceTetra> i swear it used to be worse than it is now
11:28 < AceTetra> when i edited that entry it would fail hard if you tried to semi-controlled blink at a wall
11:28 < AceTetra> now it works no matter what i try!
11:28 < AceTetra> who changed what, and why?
11:28 <+by> AceTetra: git log, git blame, etc
11:29 <+sorear> AceTetra: semi-controlled blink used to be rather buggy
11:29 < AceTetra> used to?
11:31 < AceTetra> sorear: i wrote the blink entry, and i know it depends on 8-way targeting
11:32 < AceTetra> and i know 8-way targeting is craaaaaap
11:33 <+by> I didn't think monsters respected LOS so well: I just escaped out of a corner from an ogre by reading ?fog without it ever standing next to me
11:34 <+due> Oh, I am actually here now.
11:34 <+due> Stupid telephones.
11:41 < CIA-81> due * r4bd3b68069d3 /crawl-ref/source/makeitem.cc: Reduce stack sizes of non-poisoned needles.
11:41 < syllogism> Item acquirement stats appears broken, it fails after picking item type
11:41 < syllogism> "Acquirement failed, stopping early"
11:45 < Twinge-> Eronarn: For the record my final thoughts were to leave slings with no speed/accuracy penalty with only bucklers, and blowguns with a tiny penalty with only bucklers.
11:47 < Twinge-> And I also still don't see how tweaking basic racial apts and stats can't make Halfings worthwhile; seems like they are different and interesting enough to be so with my proposed apts :P  Ideally they should also have something unique about them, but only apts can go a long way
11:48 -!- Twinge- is now known as Twinge
11:51 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@80-41-136-49.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:51 <+due> Twinge: I think blowguns should have a reduced penalty with bucklers.
11:52 <+due> Twinge: But I don't intend to reintroduce speed penalties for shields and slings at this point in time.
11:52 <+due> Twinge: Mostly because Cherubs as a monster type are designed to be shield + sling users.
11:53 <+due> http://platypus01.actewagl.net.au/safant/figures/minifigs2.jpg
11:53 <+due> Thematically, slings and shields are also a good combination.
11:55 < Twinge> due: Er, again, I said I'm fine with and approve of slings+bucklers having no penalty at all.  Heavier shields are a little more questionable but probably fine.
11:56 <+due> I should've clarified.
11:56 <+due> By shields I mean above bucklers. :)
11:57 < Twinge> Fair enough.  Then we're agreed already anyway =)
11:57 <+due> :)
11:57 <+due> HaHu is also *excellent* fun.
11:57 <+due> It's fast becoming my new  "try, try again" class.
11:57 <+due> ??sling
11:57 < Henzell> slings[1/2]: Damage rating: 0 Accuraccy rating: +2 Base attack delay: 110%. Better than throwing rocks at a jelly, but only until you wield a cursed one. Can launch {stones} and {sling bullets}.
11:57 <+due> ??sling[2]
11:57 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled sling[2] in my learndb.
11:57 <+due> ??slings[2]
11:57 < Henzell> slings[2/2]: To be, or not to be: That is the question: | Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer | The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, | Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, | And by opposing end them?
11:57 <+due> ??sling bullets
11:57 < Henzell> sling bullets[1/1]: More effective than stones when launched from a sling. Roughly +5 accuracy over using a stone.
11:59 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc1-oxfd15-0-0-cust71.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
11:59 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA
11:59 <+due> Excellent, I fixed throwing needles at yourelf.
11:59 -!- ais523 [n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has joined ##crawl-dev
12:01 <+due> Eronarn: Ping.
12:02 < Twinge> I would still like to see Halflngs have more going for them then 'worse than Kobolds except that they're cool wih shields+slings' though ;)
12:04 <+due> Sure.
12:04 <+due> But at least it's better than the nothing they had before.
12:05 < Twinge> Yes.
12:06 < Twinge> How do I post something to the mailing list?  (Or you oculd for me if you want) -- dpeg wanted to run the monster exp tweaks by mailing list people before implementing them
12:08 <+due> Sign up to c-r-d and post it?
12:09 < Twinge> ??newsletter
12:09 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled newsletter in my learndb.
12:10 < Twinge> ??crd
12:10 < Henzell> crd[1/1]: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crawl-ref-discuss
12:10 <+by> argh, I have a comment "// XXX: broken" in my code and don't know why :)
12:14 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@80-41-136-49.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
12:17 <+due> by: eek :)
12:20 <+due> is it abs() or std::abs()?
12:21 < ais523> oh, I found a bug in Crawl yesterday, trying to write a Crawl bot
12:21 < ais523> there's a loop that loops over all signals setting them to crash-handle before default actions, even if the default action isn't to crash the program
12:21 <+due> Oh?
12:21 <+due> Anti-bot measures, clearly. ;)
12:22 < ais523> in particular, SIGTTIN and SIGTTOU are set to stop the program (and continue it when the terminal is available) by default
12:22  * due kidding.
12:22 < ais523> with the current code, Crawl runs, but crash-dumps every single time it's backgrounded
12:23 < ais523> (you can ask sorear for why this is relevant: basically, it's a trick that uses the shell job control primitives to see when Crawl is asking for input)
12:23 < ais523> anyway, the bug exists even when not running via a bot (just type "./crawl &" and see the crash happen)
12:23 < ais523> but the framework I'm using tends to trigger it quite a lot
12:25 <+by> would you mind filing a bug report? (or if you know how to fix it, that's good too)
12:25 < ais523> I have a patch already, where should I send it?
12:26 <+by> some pastebin? sprunge.us works well
12:27 <+due> sprunge is nice
12:27  * ais523 formats the patch
12:27 <+due> Okay, so I'm going to use the same HD roll as meph cloud, but scaled againts throwing skill and blowgun enchantment.
12:28 <+due> But that basically means that you only need 27 skill and +1 blowgun to overcome a 28 HD monster all the time.
12:28 <+due> Is that unreasonable?
12:28 <+due> Or should I cap the bonus at 28 / 2?
12:28 < syllogism> no wonder randart stats took long: Randarts generated: 16777215 valid   
12:29 <+due> syllogism: It always takes forever.
12:29 < syllogism> yes
12:29 < syllogism> but usually I cancel it before it finishes :P
12:29 <+due> Heh, me too.
12:29 < Twinge> Hmm
12:30 <+due> So, HD 27 monster, with 36 blowgun roll (27 + 9), capping it at 18 reduction would be checking against HD HD.
12:30 <+due> Er. 18 HD.
12:30 <+due> No, wait.
12:30 <+due> 9 HD.
12:30 <+due> So 1 + random2(27) >= 9.
12:30 <+due> Is that acceptable?
12:31 < Twinge> 'If 1d(ThrowingSkill + BlowgunEnchantment) >= MonsterHitDice Then DartEffect procs' ?
12:31 < syllogism> so wait would that roll be used against any monster with hd >9
12:32 < syllogism> or 27?
12:32 < Twinge> @??Death Yak
12:32 < Gretell> death yak (Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 42-112 | AC/EV: 9/5 | Damage: 30 | Res: magic(93) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 1194.
12:32 <+due> @??cerebov
12:32 < Gretell> Cerebov (&) | Speed: 10 | HD: 21 | Health: 650 | AC/EV: 30/8 | Damage: 60 | Flags: demonic, see invisible | Res: magic(168), hellfire+++, poison | XP: 15000 | Sp: fire storm, iron shot, haste, greater demon.
12:32 <+due> 21 - 18 = 3.
12:32 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-136-49.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
12:32 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA
12:33 < Twinge> @??Deep Elf Demonologist
12:33 < Gretell> deep elf demonologist (e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 36-72 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 12 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(96) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1115 | Sp: demon, banishment, greater demon, call imp, teleport self.
12:33 <+due> We could do 36 / 3 instead.
12:33 < Twinge> I'm still not clear if I'm following what you're meaning, hehe
12:33 <+due> Twinge: Okay, the meph cloud check is  1 + random2(27) >= monster's hd.
12:33 < syllogism> seriously :P
12:34 < Twinge> Always 27?
12:34 <+due> Yes.
12:34 <+due> It's a fixed HDcheck.
12:34 < ais523> http://sprunge.us/JOTh?diff
12:35 < Twinge> So a 52% (14/27) chance of confusing a death Yak per turn it spends in the cloud
12:35 <+due> The maximum blowgun roll you can get is 36 (27 + 9).
12:35 < ais523> it's a pity, really, the erroneous crashdumps were rather fun, as they marked the character as a yak gladiator
12:35 <+due> Twinge: Yeah. Meph cloud power only affects duration.
12:36 < Twinge> K.
12:36 <+due> So I'm wondering what to scale against the blowgun roll instead.
12:38 < Twinge> How many darts will work on what kinds of monsters?  Obviously poison won't work on poison resistant, but I'm not quite up to date on what other effects block what other special needles.
12:38 <+due> there aren't any at the minute.
12:38 <+due> There'll be this HD check.
12:38 <+due> And possibly either a new set of resistance (organic compound resistance), or reusing poison resistance levels.
12:38 < syllogism> @?? antaeus
12:38 < Gretell> Antaeus (C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 22 | Health: 700 | AC/EV: 28/4 | Damage: 75(cold), 30(cold) | Flags: demonic, amphibious | Res: magic(264), cold++, elec++ | Vul: fire | XP: 15000 | Sp: b.cold, b.lightning.
12:39 < Twinge> Hmm.
12:39 <+due> I want it to be reasonable that you can paralyse Antaeus or Cerebov with high skill and an enchanted blowgun.
12:39 <+due> But not extremely easy.
12:39 < Twinge> So same formula for all needle types for now?
12:39 <+due> Yes.
12:40 < Twinge> Rmember that you also have to hit them first before this check; I don't know what the odds of that look like against any decent EV.  Surely high, but roughly how high?
12:40 < syllogism> That formula seems fine if that's the goal
12:40 <+due> Exactly.
12:40 < syllogism> hitting is easy
12:40 <+due> syllogism: Which formula?
12:41 < syllogism> 1d(skill+enchantment)
12:41 <+due> Ah.
12:41 <+due> so 1d36 >= monster->hd?
12:41 <+due> Actually, I lie, it's 1d3.
12:41 <+due> Actually, I lie, it's 1d37.
12:42  * due fixes.
12:42 < syllogism> it's a rather generous formula but it can be nerfed later
12:42 < Twinge> Why's it 37?
12:42 < TGW> enchantment on what?
12:42 < Twinge> The blowgun
12:42 < TGW> the needles?
12:42 <+due> Twinge: Initialised a variable to 1 initially, it should've been 0.
12:43 <+due> It's 1d36 now.
12:43 < Twinge> Oh, or the needles.  One of the two.
12:43 < syllogism> or the average
12:43 < Twinge> Hmm - or a--yep, just what I was about to say
12:43 < syllogism> @?? orb guardian
12:43 < Gretell> Orb Guardian (X) | Speed: 14 | HD: 15 | Health: 45-120 | AC/EV: 13/13 | Damage: 45 | Flags: see invisible | Res: magic(120) | XP: 3887.
12:43 < Twinge> @??Nikola
12:43 < Gretell> Nikola (@) | Speed: 9 | HD: 18 | Health: 190 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Damage: 20 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(120) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 3665 | Sp: shock, chain lightning, blink, b.lightning.
12:44 <+due> The blowgun.
12:44 <+due> For the minute!
12:44 < Twinge> @??Titan
12:44 < Gretell> titan (C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 60-160 | AC/EV: 10/3 | Damage: 55 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: magic(186), elec++ | XP: 3632 | Sp: b.lightning, minor healing, airstrike.
12:44 <+due> We'll see how tihs works, anyway.
12:44 < AceTetra> due: did you fix throwing needles at yourself when you ought to be vulnerable?
12:44 <+due> AceTetra: Yes, have't pushed though.
12:45 < Twinge> @??storm Dragon
12:45 < Gretell> storm dragon (D) | Speed: 12 | HD: 14 | Health: 70-140 | AC/EV: 13/10 | Damage: 25, 15, 15 | Flags: fly | Res: magic(93), cold, elec+++ | XP: 3006 | Sp: b.lightning.
12:45 < Twinge> @??Geryon
12:45 < Gretell> Geryon (&) | Speed: 10 | HD: 15 | Health: 300 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Damage: 35 | Flags: demonic, see invisible, fly | Res: magic(120) | XP: 6391 | Sp: beast.
12:45 < AceTetra> i wasn't paying much attention sorry
12:45 < Twinge> @??Mara
12:45 < Gretell> Mara (R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: demonic, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(213), elec++, poison | XP: 7532 | Sp: mislead, mara summon, b.lightning, player ghost, pain, teleport self.
12:45 < Twinge> 20 HD for Mara :O
12:45 < AceTetra> do we have wielding needles yet? :P
12:46 <+due> Yeah, Mara's pretty buff.
12:46 <+due> AceTetra: No, this isn't NetHack. :p
12:46 < ais523> both Crawl and NetHack let you wield anything
12:46 < AceTetra> due: but, but, that's not nethack!
12:47 < ais523> presumably, wielding needles wouldn't do a lot in either game
12:47 < Twinge> ADOM lets you weild anything too.  Duelists can't disarm you if you're using, say, a statue to fight ;)
12:47 < AceTetra> wielding needles just makes sense!
12:48 < Twinge> Ace: In the sense you could apply any force and they'd be just as likely to hurt you at the enemy?
12:48 < Twinge> *couldn't
12:48 < AceTetra> dammit hair! stop getting in the way!
12:48 < AceTetra> this hair isn
12:49 < AceTetra> t helping with the hair option
12:49 < ais523> Twinge: reminds me of wielding potions in NetHack; they break when you hit things with them, and both of you get drenched in the potion and suffer the splash effect
12:49 < ais523> this is mostly only useful for potions of paralysis, when you're immune to paralysis and the opponent isn't
12:49 <+due> Which is better than throwing why?
12:50 < ais523> throwing is much more likely to miss
12:50 < ais523> and in melee, if you miss the potion stays intact so you can try again
12:51 <+due> Well, it took me three tries to confuse cerebov with 27 throwing skill.
12:51 <+due> I think that's pretty reasonable.
12:51 <+due> =0 blowgun though.
12:53 <+due> Should we have a message? "The monster resists the organic compound."
12:54 <+due> Or just "resists".
12:54 < syllogism> it should be documented somewhere your skill and enchantment helps you overcome their resistance
12:54 <+due> It will be.
12:54 <+due> I'll put it in needles and blowguns, I think.
12:54 <+due> Though, this doesn't apply to poisoned needles.
12:54 <+due> Nor curare.
12:55 < syllogism> it should apply to curare at the very least
12:55 < syllogism> or maybe not
12:55 <+due> rPois, though.
12:55 < syllogism> @?? gnoll
12:55 < Gretell> gnoll (g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 2 | Health: 8-18 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 9 | Res: magic(8) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 14.
12:56 < syllogism> the problem with the formula is you can't paralyse even d1 monsters at 0 skill and a plain blowgun
12:56 <+due> Yeah.
12:57 <+due> Hm.
12:58 < syllogism> maybe it should always work on monsters below certain HD 
12:58 <+due> Or
12:58 <+due> Or hm.
12:58 <+due> No, that idea wouldn't work, because it would mean you could confuse cerebov with low skill/enchantment.
12:59 < Twinge> @??Ogre
12:59 < Gretell> ogre (O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Damage: 17 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 131.
12:59 <+greensnark> We need ninja monsters that can knock the needles out of the air like they do in wuxia movies.
12:59 <+greensnark> And hey due
12:59 <+due> greensnark!
12:59 <+greensnark> Sigmund could know kung fu
12:59 <+due> greensnark, "killed by Duvessa (who was berserk)" for Henzell. Is this acceptable? Sorear said I should ask you because apparently someone said no to reporting specific monster (and player, paralysis, sleeping)( states.
12:59 < ais523> my patch for that signal-handling issue: http://sprunge.us/JOTh?diff
12:59 <+greensnark> Sounds fine to me
12:59 <+due> syllogism: That's probably best, but what HD?
12:59 <+greensnark> And why should you ask me? :P
12:59 <+due> Overlord and Henzell Master?
13:00 < cbus> greensnark, how do I change keymap in macosx?
13:00 < cbus> setxkbmap dvorak?
13:00 < cbus> :D
13:00 <+greensnark> Henzell doesn't really care
13:00 <+due> syllogism: HD5, you think?
13:00 <+greensnark> The length limit for monster names and vmsg in the db is quite generous
13:00 <+greensnark> cbus: ?
13:00 < syllogism> at first glance HD5 seems fine
13:01 <+greensnark> Is this some new model number
13:01 <+greensnark> Oh, 5 HD
13:01 < cbus> aoeu
13:01 < cbus> fuck yeah
13:01 < cbus> dvorak! :)
13:01 < Twinge> @??scorpion
13:01 < Gretell> scorpion (s) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 10(medium poison) | Res: magic(12) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 28.
13:01 <+greensnark> :P
13:01 <+greensnark> Probably under system preferences -> keyboard :P
13:01 < cbus> now if I forget to switch back my gf's brother will kill me ;)
13:02 < syllogism> @?? sigmund
13:02 < Gretell> Sigmund (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 30 | AC/EV: 0/11 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(12) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 104 | Sp: throw flame, confuse, invisibility, magic dart.
13:02 <+greensnark> cbus: That would not be good? :P
13:02 < Twinge> IF 2+1d(3+BlowgunSkill + (BlowgunEnchant+NeedleEnchant / 2)) >= MonsterHD THEN proc
13:02 <+due> syllogism: Perhaps a coinflip chance for monsters <=HD5?
13:02 < cbus> greensnark, nah :)
13:02 <+greensnark> Learn how to type in qwerty :P
13:02 <+due> Twinge: Or that works.
13:02 <+greensnark> You'll need to know how to type in qwerty :P
13:02 < cbus> greensnark, I can but its hard, how do I play crawl?
13:02 < cbus> greensnark, it's just very uncomfy
13:02 <+due> max of 2 + (30 + (9 + 9 / 2))?
13:03 < Twinge> That gives you 100% on HD 3 or less, 20% on HD6 with no skill.  Hmm.
13:03 <+due> That's 40 max.
13:03 < Twinge> 9 and 9 is a lot of enchanting though
13:03 < syllogism> @?? killer bee
13:03 < Gretell> killer bee (k) | Speed: 20 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 2/18 | Damage: 10(poison) | Flags: fly | Res: magic(12) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 61.
13:04 <+due> True.
13:05 <+due> Though I might just use Blowgun enchant at the minute, because I'm not sure how to get the enchant of the missile.
13:05 < syllogism> greensnark: did you see heteroy's shoal 5 adventures
13:05 <+greensnark> syllogism: No?
13:05 <+greensnark> I checked for splats, so he obviously didn't die :'(
13:05 < syllogism> he almost splatted about 10 times, almost drowned due to aquamancer pushing him into deep water and TSO saved him once
13:05 <+greensnark> Ooh
13:05 < syllogism> used all his consumables and escaped with 6 hp
13:05 <+greensnark> What level was this?
13:05 < Twinge> That's about 48 Scrolls on average, I think?  Just for one set of needles and blowgun?  (Only asusming Enchant 1 or 2 here to be fair)
13:05 <+greensnark> I should grab his ttyrecs
13:06 < AceTetra> it could have been any level
13:06 <+due> Twinge: Very true.
13:06 <+greensnark> "almost drowned" == he fell into deep water and scrambled out?
13:06 < AceTetra> i did that once
13:06 <+due> Twinge: What about the current skill check? We could maybe just discard that.
13:06 < syllogism> shoals 5, he got the rune and killed xtahua
13:06 < syllogism> greensnark: yes
13:06 <+greensnark> Ah
13:06 <+due> Twinge: (It's a flat rate of failing if your throwing skill is less than 5, or your blowgun is less than +5)
13:06 <+greensnark> So the milestone should be tvable
13:06 < ais523> something in me feels that that ought to be a skill check, somehow
13:07 < ais523> perhaps a swimming skill that speeds movement in shallow water and eventually lets you swim in deep water too
13:07 < AceTetra> it ought to be some kind of check, if i can get on tv with a silly chance like that!
13:07  * greensnark ignores AceTetra already.
13:07 < Twinge> due: Oh, I didn't know about that.  Hmm.
13:07 <+due> Twinge: We could just nuke that, though.
13:08 < AceTetra> greensnark: but, but
13:08 <+due> Twinge: It's currently skill + enchant + -5.
13:08 <+due> Twinge: if > 0, then !one_chance_in(abs(roll)) of fail..
13:09 < Twinge> Hmm.  What's the current formula for poison needles, if that's easily accessible?
13:09 <+due> rPois. :)
13:09 <+due> Let me find it
13:09 <+due> _poison_hit_victim
13:10 < AceTetra> the current formula for rpois is that + = ++ = +++
13:10 <+due> !source _poison_hit_victim
13:10 < Henzell> Lines pasted to http://pastebin.com/m6b1b283e
13:10 <+due> AceTetra: Something else entirely.
13:10 <+due> Twinge: ---^ in theory
13:10 <+greensnark> So shields have ridiculous blocking these days?
13:10 < syllogism> no
13:10 <+greensnark> Has it really been strengthened? They were already too strong in 0.5
13:10 < AceTetra> due: i was being kinda cynical anyway. correction please?
13:10 <+greensnark> Just the displayed value changed?
13:11 < syllogism> yes, it now shows hidden values
13:11 < syllogism> like dex bonus
13:11 <+greensnark> Oh ok
13:11 < Twinge> due: Same formula for needles as bolts and such then?
13:12 <+due> AceTetra: If you want to be cynical, do it elsewhere.
13:12 <+due> Twinge: Yes.
13:12 < syllogism> maybe his initial shoals 5 milestone would be another decent starting point, xtahua kicked his ass iirc
13:12 < syllogism> he doesnt have any resistances :P
13:12 < AceTetra> due: ok.
13:12 < Twinge> Needles have 'automatic hit' for 0 damage, and bolts/arrows/darts have to deal damage to have a chance to poison?
13:13 <+due> Yees.
13:13 < AceTetra> i just thought none of us were really serious about that sorry
13:13 < Twinge> It's been a long time since I've worked with code more complicated than only light scripting languages, so I don't breeze through this stuff these das, hehe
13:13 < Twinge> But that explains why I never seem to poison with arrows :P
13:16 < syllogism> greensnark: the drowning bit coming soon
13:16 < Twinge> So a poison needle that hit would be 75% to poison a scorpion which has AC 5?  Not sure what the whole else block applies to though; I'm perhaps incorrectly inferring the top part applies to it hitting a monster of whatever type
13:17 < AceTetra> ok, even though i know that most of my needle ideas are very silly indeed, i still would like to be able to wield a needle and stab someone. why not?
13:17 <+greensnark> syllogism: That was hilarious
13:17 <+greensnark> I love how dedicated he was to eating that ration even with the aquamancer bolting the hell out of him :P
13:17 < syllogism> I cant believe he survived here :P
13:17 <+greensnark> He finished eating the ration after he scrambled out of the deep water <3
13:18 < Twinge> Ace: Code it, then? ;P  It'd have to have very low chance of successfully working, and probably a small chance of pricking yourself by accident.  Would be kind of interesting I guess.
13:18 < syllogism> he is trying to ctele but he is mesmerized :P
13:18 < AceTetra> Twinge: i would code everything if i had any idea how
13:19 < AceTetra> Twinge: i am the most pathetic
13:19 < Twinge> That would be on the easy side I think, though I admit I wouldn't be able to just pop it out either right now myself.  It kind of falls under the category of 'I guess we can add it, but we don't want any of the main devs to waste their time on it' I think.
13:20 < AceTetra> Twinge: exactly. i can't do it either!
13:20 <+due> I return.
13:20 < AceTetra> oh whatever due
13:21 < AceTetra> due can code like a motherfucker, don't let him fool you
13:21 <+due> Twinge: I think your code for the needle brands is fine, though.
13:21 < Twinge> Ace: So I think if you find someone that wants to make it it would probably be accepted, but none of the main devs will want to make it since it's kind of silly.  I don't even know what skill it would check :P
13:22 <+due> Twinge: What are the chances of confusing a HD5 monster with 0 skill and {0 blowgun?
13:22 < Twinge> due: Just trying to think it out and figure how likely you should be able to hit things, normal progression through early game for assassin, etc.
13:23 <+due> Twinge: Dont' worry about to_hit.
13:23 <+due> Twinge: The functions are only called when we hit the monster.
13:23 < AceTetra> Twinge: yes. and right now i just want to fix code that i actually use, not code that
13:24 < AceTetra> 's actually worth working on
13:24 < AceTetra> i just want to fix TrBe, fuck everything else!
13:24 < Twinge> due: Yes, but it's still a consideration.  I mean, if you only hit half the time, it's effectively half the odds to get the desired effect.
13:25 < Twinge> I know needles are pretty accurate though
13:25 <+due> Ah.
13:25 < AceTetra> Twinge: needles are so accurate it hurts
13:25 < AceTetra> skip training throwing whatever skill. just throw needles!
13:25 <+due> AceTetra: Shhh.
13:26 < AceTetra> due: feh! prove otherwise!
13:26 <+due> ...
13:27 < AceTetra> well, ...
13:27 <+due> Do you have anything constructive to contribute?
13:27 < AceTetra> yes! go needles!
13:27 <+due> greensnark: Also, mesmerisation only affects controlled teleport, aparently.
13:27 <+due> Which... makes little sense
13:28 < AceTetra> this isn't a joke though
13:28 <+greensnark> Surprises a lot of people, for sure :P
13:28 <+greensnark> dpeg wants to retain the existing mesm effect on controlled blink and teleport
13:28 < ais523> that sort-of makes flavour sense
13:28 < AceTetra> i seriously said go needles!
13:28 <+due> ais523: Why? It doesn't touch random teleports.
13:28 < syllogism> as I said it should just make ctele uncontrolled
13:28 <+due> ais523: It comes up with a prompt saying "Please pick again".
13:28 <+due> ais523: It should just make ctele uncontrolled.
13:29 < ais523> due: because, the point of being mesmerised is that you don't /want/ to go away from the monster
13:29 < ais523> you can, but your brain won't let you
13:29 < Twinge> due: Are blowguns still very high accuracy even with no skill?
13:29 < AceTetra> due: that is hilarious!
13:29 < ais523> so if you can control teles, you're going to just go near
13:29 < ais523> randomised, your brain can't stop you
13:29 <+greensnark> Controlled teleport should be forced into a teleport onto the siren's position, to be logical
13:29 <+greensnark> Without giving the player control
13:29 <+greensnark> Or else we can lift the teleport restriction
13:29 <+greensnark> But dpeg favours option (a)
13:29 <+due> ais523: Which buggers anyone with the controlled teleport mutation.
13:30 < AceTetra> did i ever say something here about how semi-random tele is bogus?!
13:30 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o due] by ChanServ
13:30 <+greensnark> due: Well, nobody said mutations should be unambiguously beneficial :)
13:30 < syllogism> greensnark: that's just annoying though as you can remove the ring
13:30 -!- AceTetra was kicked from ##crawl-dev by due [Please, calm down.]
13:30 < Twinge> @??hydra
13:30 < Gretell> hydra (D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 39-104 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(52), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 1214.
13:30 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [-o due] by due
13:30 < ais523> due: agreed, it makes no gameplay sense at all
13:30 -!- AceTetra [n=AceTetra@97-126-65-38.tukw.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:30 < ais523> even though it does make flavour sense
13:30 <+greensnark> syllogism: Oh, I prefer not messing with teleport at all :P
13:30 <+due> I suppose it does make some flavour sense.
13:30 < AceTetra> ok, i was serious about the semi-random tele though
13:31 < AceTetra> it works better than it did before, but it's a bit odd
13:31 <+due> You mean semi-controlled blink?
13:31 < AceTetra> yes
13:31 < AceTetra> due why did you kick?
13:31 <+greensnark> Sirens are really a huge conflict between what-does-the-PC-want and what-does-the-player-want, so it'll take time to thresh out the details
13:31 <+due> AceTetra: Because you are getting kinda manic and you need to calm down.
13:31 <+due> greensnark: Sure, but there isn't really a specific definition of the flavour anywhere.
13:32 < AceTetra> due: but i'm not :/
13:32 <+due> Is it actually a tractor beam--ie, a physical, you can't get away.
13:32 <+due> Or is it a mental "I don't want to get away"?
13:32 < Twinge> due: Let's drop the first add by one and put it inside the die roll instead, to make it 1+1d(4+BlowgunSkill + (BlowgunEnchant+NeedleEnchant / 2)) >= MonsterHD THEN proc  (or I guess in the code it'd be 2+random2(...)).  This means with no skill you're still at 100% to proc on HD1 or HD2, 75% on HD3, 50% on HD4, and 25% on HD5.  With say 4 skills as an early Assassin, you're up to 56% on an ogre's 5HD.  This gives everyone good chance to 
13:32 <+greensnark> Oh, the flavour gets to be defined by us :)
13:32 < Twinge> hit the weakest stuff, but you need skill to have decent odds against anything big -- 
13:32 <+due> Twinge: Sounds excelent.
13:32 < AceTetra> i just wanted to point out the slightly odd semi-random blink behavior
13:32 < ais523> sirens with a tractor beam would make no sense at all
13:32 <+due> Twinge: random2(3) is 0 - 2, though.
13:32 <+greensnark> Myth would certainly point to it being mental though
13:32 < ais523> flavourwise
13:32 <+greensnark> Yeah
13:32 <+due> Okay.
13:33 <+due> Then why can you fight them?
13:33 <+due> And throw spells and rocks and shit?
13:33 < Twinge> however, I think I'd like there to also be a baseline minimum, probably 2%, of it hitting no matter what -- at least if the HD is say 15 or less, so even unskilled has a tiny chance of getting a lucky shot off.
13:33 <+greensnark> Who said we're following myth to the letter :P
13:34 <+due> Twinge: So, if monster->hit_dice < 15 and random2(100) <= 2?
13:34 <+greensnark> I hope to add testudines to Shoals soon
13:34 <+due> Is  one_chance_in(50) equivalent? I hate maths.
13:34 <+due> greensnark: Yaaay.
13:34 <+due> Anyway.
13:34 <+greensnark> dpeg still playing coy, but at least we can try it
13:34 <+due> There's no differentiation between sirens and mermaids, also.
13:34 < Twinge> Seems good.  That can either stack, or just be a MIN from the previous.
13:34 <+greensnark> I really want to get rid of taurs and stone giants and crap
13:35 <+due> Plese, get rid of taurs and stone giants.
13:35 < Twinge> The difference is pretty negligible either way, so whichever is easier.
13:35 <+due> a) massive XP boost, b) annoyingg as hell.
13:35 < AceTetra> ok, can i get an opinion about semi-random tele without kicking? i still think it's odd that semi-random does a 8-dir blink before the random blink.
13:35 < AceTetra> it's one of the two 8-direction blinks left in crawl!
13:36 < syllogism> well it definitely does need some enemies with ranged attacks
13:36 < Twinge> and due: yes, I know rand2(3) is 0/1/2.  So 2+rand2(4) is the same as 1d4+1, which is what I wand - meaning you can't ever get less than 2 total, so HD2 is 100% :)  It's just easier to psuedo-code it up with 1dX notiation
13:36 < syllogism> besides aquamancers
13:36 < syllogism> and javelineers
13:36 <+greensnark> And javelineers and regular merfolk :)
13:36 <+due> Twinge: Okay, good, because that caught me a few times. :)
13:36 < syllogism> regular merfolk are just popcorn :P
13:36 <+greensnark> They're about as effective as regular centaurs, true :P
13:36 <+due> Delicious, fishy-flavoured popcorn.
13:36 <+greensnark> For some reason they gave 500 xp until I went after them with the xp nerf bat :P
13:37 <+greensnark> @??merfolk
13:37 < Gretell> merfolk (m) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 18-54 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 18 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(36) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 188.
13:37 < AceTetra> actually, i'm wondering, is semi-random blink really one of the directional blinks left?
13:37 < syllogism> uh
13:37 <+greensnark> Yeah, they're quite low xp now :P
13:37 < Twinge> due: It probably doesn't help that the most recent code I've looked at of that style is decompiled ADOM code, which has a specific die roll function so I'm a lot more used to seeing the "+1" accounted for automatically ;)
13:37 <+greensnark> But I had to avoid blowing Shoals xp budget somehow :P
13:38 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:38 <+greensnark> I should also attend to sharks
13:38 < syllogism> @?? shark
13:38 < Gretell> shark (;) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 9/5 | Damage: 15, 8 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(28) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 264.
13:38 < syllogism> @?? swamp worm
13:38 < Gretell> swamp worm (w) | Speed: 12 | HD: 5 | Health: 25-50 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 20 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 144.
13:38 < syllogism> why are they weaker :P
13:38 < Twinge> green: You going to modify sharks directly, or should I put them on the list?
13:38 < syllogism> and give more xp :P
13:38 < purge> my caster got one-shotted by a shark in the swamp because i mistakenly took a step in shallow water :/
13:38 <+greensnark> More HD :P
13:38 <+greensnark> Sharks are really sad :P
13:38 < Twinge> pruge: You mean swamp worm, not shark?
13:39 <+greensnark> Yeah, shouldn't get sharks in swamp
13:39 <+due> Okay
13:39 < purge> it was a shark, and i thought it was in the swamp
13:39 <+due> greensnark: How do I get the ammunition enchantment out of the bolt structure?
13:39 < syllogism> purge: that's insulting :P
13:39 <+greensnark> Maybe not in swamp, then?
13:39 < purge> maybe
13:39 <+greensnark> due: There's some item object, let me check
13:39 <+greensnark> due: beam.item
13:39 < Twinge> Can sharks do the same super-bite swamp worms can then? ...for that matter, can goldfish/big fish??
13:39 <+due> greensnark: Thanks! I am so lazy. :)
13:39 <+due> Twinge: Yes.
13:40 < Twinge> Hmm.
13:40 < Twinge> Anyone know offhand what the multiplier is for that super-bite?  Is it the same for all?
13:40 <+greensnark> 2x damage
13:40 <+Keskitalo> Afternoons!
13:40 <+due> Keskitalo!
13:40 <+greensnark> Keskitalo <3
13:40 < Twinge> I was not considering that when looking at nerfing the fish exp.
13:40 <+Keskitalo> awww, little heartsies.
13:40 <+greensnark> !send Keskitalo shot of whisky
13:40 < Henzell> Sending shot of whisky to Keskitalo.
13:40 < Twinge> Only 2x?  I thought worms could do 50+ in one hit
13:41 <+Keskitalo> This early in the morning?
13:41 < syllogism> well they are speed 12
13:41 <+greensnark> And the player is slower when wading in water, so they get extra attacks
13:41 < Twinge> Nod.  And I guess you'rew slower in-yeah.
13:41 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: It's 6pm here :P
13:41 <+Keskitalo> 14:41 here!
13:42 < cbus> greensnark, nice
13:42 < cbus> 13:41 here
13:42 < cbus> and its snowing like hell (when its frozen over)
13:42 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: I see your clock is set to International Student Time
13:42 < cbus> :)
13:42 <+greensnark> It's quite pleasant here :P
13:42 < cbus> greensnark, -10C and snowing like mad! :)
13:43 < cbus> perfect weather to stay at home and play go
13:43 <+greensnark> And I'm going over to Madras tonight, where it's 27C and very pleasant :P
13:43 < cbus> greensnark, nice, have an umbrella drink for me! :)
13:43 <+greensnark> Enjoy your snow :P
13:43 <+greensnark> cbus: I will :)
13:43 < cbus> bastard! :)
13:43 < cbus> its going to be even colder soon
13:44 <+due> Twinge: Hm. I bork code, I think.
13:44 < cbus> rumours of some places in sweden getting -40C
13:44 < Twinge> D'oh
13:44 <+Keskitalo> Now for Gentle Giant and dishwashing.
13:44 < Twinge> also due: would having a +1 blowgun by itself be any better than a +0 blowgun (assuming +0 needles) with that formula?  Or would it just truncate down and have no extra effect at all?  (I am asuming truncate at this point, but I dunno if random2() deals with non-ints or something)
13:45 <+due> Twinge: int(1) / 2 = 0, I'm pretty sure.
13:46 <+due> I'm sstill inclined to use just the blowgun plusses...
13:47 <+due> @??ogre
13:47 < Gretell> ogre (O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Damage: 17 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 131.
13:47 < Twinge> Alright, that's probably fine.  It's still a big investment of scrolls to make it past more than +5 or so.
13:47 <+due> Also, 1 + random2(4) is a max of 4, which means you will never confuse an ogre.
13:47 < Twinge> Yes, it should be 2 + random2(4).
13:47 <+due> Ah.
13:47 <+due> Whoops.
13:47  * due looks shifty.
13:48 < Twinge> Easy to confuse, we were kind of switching abck and forth between XdX notation and how it looks in the actual code :P
13:48 < Twinge> greensnark: Should I add sharks to the exp tweak list, or are you just going to do that one yourself?
13:49 <+greensnark> Twinge: If you can get to them, that'd rock
13:49  * greensnark is packing.
13:49  * due packs greensnark in a turtle shell.
13:49 <+greensnark> We should get some sort of emperor turtle for Shoal:5
13:50 <+due> ... Yes.
13:50 < syllogism> A'tuin
13:50 <+due> Yesss, do it!
13:50 <+greensnark> <3
13:50 < syllogism> too big?: P
13:50 <+due> MAybe a bit.
13:50 <+greensnark> Yeah, and when you kill him, problems arise
13:51  * due types "turtles in mythology" into google.
13:51 <+greensnark> Such as the dungeon collapsing
13:51 < Twinge> greensnark: It'll probably be a couple days before any of them are implemented.  People like the list but dpeg wanted me to run it by the mailing list first, and then I'll have to make a patch file.  But I'll add it and it can be fixed with the rest.
13:51 <+greensnark> Twinge: No hurry, thanks
13:51 <+due> Kurma?
13:51 < Twinge> Sharks don't have any odd special things with them not visible on Gretall's info do they?
13:51 <+greensnark> They get bloodlust
13:51 <+due> greensnark: What about Kurma?
13:51 < Twinge> How's the bloodlust work?
13:52 <+greensnark> due: Back in a bit, I have to finish packing and go shopping :)
13:53 <+due> Okay.
13:53 <+due> Twinge: It's the same as the orc frenzy with orc knights.
13:53 < AceTetra> due: you keep on topic really well!
13:53  * due does.
13:53 < Twinge> due: I have a decent idea from in-game how that works, but anything more concrete?  Increases damage? accuracy?
13:53 <+due> Ah.
13:53 <+due> Let me check.
13:53 < AceTetra> Twinge: if it's about having concrete rules, you should do it yourself
13:54 <+due> ENCH_BATTLE_FRENZY
13:54 < Twinge> due: Don't need anything TOO exact, but more than a vague idea of 'makes them more threatening' would be good :)
13:54 <+due> They're immune to recite...
13:54 <+due> They get bonus damage
13:55 <+due>         damage = damage * (115 + ench.degree * 15) / 100;
13:55 <+due> Both to melee and to ranged attacks.
13:55 < Twinge> Any idea how big degree is for the sharks?
13:57 <+due> It's kinda complicated.
13:57 < Twinge> Nod.  Don't worry about it too much then.  
13:57 <+due> I'll pastebin.
13:57 <+due> As it took me a while to find it.
13:57 <+due> It's in... shout.cc :/
13:57 <+due> http://pastebin.ca/1740079
13:58 < AceTetra> ok, so i gotta revise semi-controlled blink
13:58 < Twinge> Bleh
13:58 <+due> It's basically working off the distance between the monster and the blood source
13:58 < ais523> what's that doing in shout.cc?
13:58 < AceTetra> it doesn't work how i thought it did, and i gotta change it anyway
13:58 <+due> ais523: I have no idea.
13:58 < ais523> I suppose I have an advantage finding things in the code, due to not knowing where things ought to be
13:58 <+due> Ah, blood_smell is in shout.cc
13:58 < ais523> so I always just grep the whole thing for some code I think is likely to be nearby
13:59 < Twinge> Sharks only bloodlust after fighting them, or do they just do it randomly like orc knights?  More to the point, is it possible for them to bloodlust before you really encoutner them, and then sneak attack super-bite you for bloodlust + x2 damage?
13:59 <+due> Twinge: They bloodlust whenever they scent blood.
13:59 < AceTetra> i thought semi-controlled blink needed an area in that direction to blink in, but that's false.
13:59 <+due> So whenever you or a monste rbleeds on something, and they're in range to scent it (and they get a bonus to scenting range), they go into a frenzy
13:59 < Twinge> Ok.  So normally it would be rather unlikely for them to be able to get both bonuses stacked
13:59 < AceTetra> now i don't know what the fuck
14:00 <+due> Well, they can possibly be offscreen when you get hit by a monster and bleed into shallow water...
14:00 <+due> @??shark
14:00 < Gretell> shark (;) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 9/5 | Damage: 15, 8 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(28) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 264.
14:00 < Twinge> @??swamp worm
14:00 < Gretell> swamp worm (w) | Speed: 12 | HD: 5 | Health: 25-50 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 20 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 144.
14:00 <+due> I think 264 EXP is resonable for that, to be honest.
14:00 <+due> We need a wizard command for bleeding.
14:00 < Twinge> Yeah, that's kinda why I'm pausing and asking so many questions; they may not be as needing of a nerf as we thought
14:01 < AceTetra> ok, so how does semi blink work, and why did i screw up?
14:01 < AceTetra> i need to source dive again
14:01 <+due> AceTetra: Check spells3.cc, I'm pretty sure it's in there.
14:01 <+due> Or... not. Hm. Odd.
14:02 <+due> Teleportation is in spells3.cc, for sure.
14:02 < AceTetra> will do!
14:02 < Twinge> They have somewhat high AC, can sneak attack for double damage with 2 attacks, and can bloodlust.  I haven't even had a chance to visit shoals yet to be honest, though - is walking through shallow water there fairly essential as it is in Swamp?
14:02 <+due> Only at high tide.
14:02 <+due> But no, it'snoot.
14:02 < syllogism> more like low tide really
14:02 < syllogism> at high tide it's mostly deep water
14:02 < Twinge> Hmm.  So easier to avoid than swamp worms are.
14:03 <+due> syllogism: Yeah, that's what I meant.
14:04 < AceTetra> due could you give me a link for source? i keep clicking a link that makes a horrible rash on my arm :(
14:04 <+due> Twinge: Can you give me those stats again?
14:04 <+due> ... a horrible rash on your arm?
14:04 < Twinge> Which stats?
14:05 <+due> Twinge: The percentages based on skill and HD.
14:05 <+due> AceTetra: http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref;a=snapshot;h=e34d93343f74787fc589a18070ef08a38d29668f;sf=tgz
14:05 < AceTetra> yeah, i want to click horrible prison stats, but, but...
14:05 <+due> Twinge: I'd like to include them in the commit message, if you don't mind :)
14:06 < AceTetra> aw come on firefox, open that shit
14:07 < Twinge> @??Sigmund
14:07 < Gretell> Sigmund (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 30 | AC/EV: 0/11 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(12) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 104 | Sp: throw flame, confuse, invisibility, magic dart.
14:07 < Twinge> What's a relevant HD4 monster for comparison, hmm ;)
14:07 < Twinge> @??giant ant
14:07 < Gretell> giant ant (a) | Speed: 12 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 8(poison) | Res: magic(12) | Vul: poison | XP: 33.
14:07 <+due> @??dowan
14:07 < Gretell> Dowan (e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 25 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(24) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 46 | Sp: throw frost, corona, blink, throw flame, haste other, minor healing.
14:07 <+due> @??duvessa
14:07 < Gretell> Duvessa (e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 35 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 10 | Res: magic(32) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 103.
14:07 < Twinge> Sure
14:07 <+due> Knew one of the twins was :0
14:08 <+due> Argh, switching from full sized to eee pc keyboard every night is driving me crazy.
14:08 < Twinge> @??yak
14:08 < Gretell> yak (Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Damage: 18 | Res: magic(28) | XP: 223.
14:08 < Twinge> <Twinge> 1+1d(4+BlowgunSkill + (BlowgunEnchant+NeedleEnchant / 2)) >= MonsterHD THEN proc.  With no skill you're still at 100% to proc on HD1 or HD2 (gnoll, D1 monsters), 75% on HD3 (Sigmund), 50% on HD4 (Divessa), and 25% on HD5 (ogre).  With say 4 skills as an early Assassin, you're up to 56% on an Ogre, or 33% on a Yak.
14:08 <+due> <3
14:09 < AceTetra> oh, whoop-de-doo, it "opened", then flashed a bunch of useless windows!
14:09 < Twinge> You figured out what you broked then I take it?
14:09 < AceTetra> so, what was supposed to happen?
14:09 <+due> Twinge: Yeah, missed the 2.
14:09 <+due> AceTetra: You should get a download link for a snapshot of the source code.
14:09 < Twinge> Ah.
14:09 < AceTetra> i didn't break anything!
14:11 <+due> AceTetra: I'll just link you to the tree
14:11 <+due> You can select "raw" next to each link to view the  relevant file.
14:11 <+due> http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref;a=tree;f=crawl-ref;h=e34d93343f74787fc589a18070ef08a38d29668f;hb=HEAD
14:11 <+due> Oh, whoops: http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref;a=tree;f=crawl-ref/source;h=aa04f87ea96d6ef696e7e1a0ff865e90190478b7;hb=HEAD
14:11 <+due> Wrong directory.
14:11 < AceTetra> ok, when should i have gotten a source code link? that link to the source code should have been it, right?
14:12 <+due> Yes.
14:13 <+due> Argh, late.
14:13 < AceTetra> well crap
14:13 < AceTetra> so i did it right, but everything else is screwed up??
14:13 <+due> Twinge: Thanks a million for the formulae and help. :)
14:13 <+due> AceTetra: Try the new links.
14:13 < CIA-81> due * r2d0a1ea0721b /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Throwing needles does not confer status affects.
14:13 < CIA-81> due * r65df1b1f5ffe /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Saving throws for new needle brands (syllogism, Twinge, others).
14:14 <+due> Okay, so only rage->insanity next.
14:14 <+due> Which will have to wait until tomorrow.
14:14 <+due> And Vandal's unlinking throwing/slings.
14:14 < AceTetra> due: what do i do to the new links? these are the right links right?
14:14 <+due> AceTetra: Yes, find the file you want, click "raw" next to it to open it.
14:14 < Twinge> due: Sure =)  Was a nice back-and-forth to quickly get a good solution.
14:15 < AceTetra> the file i want?!
14:15 <+due> AceTetra: :|
14:15 < AceTetra> well, i don't know
14:15 <+due> I don't even know what you want.
14:15 <+due> Er, want to do.
14:16 < AceTetra> i would like to, uh, play crawl?
14:16 <+due> greensnark: Seeing as we auto-gen the aptitudes table now with perl, can we nuke art-data.h frmo the repository?
14:16 <+due> AceTetra: Then why do you need the source code?
14:16 <+due> Anyway, on that note, I must sleep.
14:17 < AceTetra> huh? why did anyone need me to make a 0.5 save file?!
14:18 <+due> I... honestly can't comprehend you right now.
14:18 <+due> Maybe I'm too tired. :)
14:18 < AceTetra> god damn it this is fucking confusing!
14:19 < Twinge> Night, due.  I should've gone to bed as well (and will now), but was interested in getting the formula right first :)
14:21 < AceTetra> oh man, it's almost like other people want me to decode their shit for them
14:22 < AceTetra> i must say that i can't decode any of your filthy english phrases
14:23 < AceTetra> lucky i could even understand what i understood in the first place!
14:29 < AceTetra> ok, so regardless of what i can understand, we still need to communicate with foreign language users
14:30 < AceTetra> i feel like i ought to be able to understand whatevr people say, even if i can't parse that language at all
14:32 < AceTetra> can i make language irrelevant, or do i have to translate that language until i can interpret it?
14:42 < Napkin> what's this about?
14:48 < AceTetra> Napkin: i swear i had a good point here. :/
14:53 < AceTetra> anyway, even if i didn't have a point, i probably linked a url that would make anyone feel awful
14:55 < AceTetra> i wish i had some urls that would make people feel less awful, but we all wish for stuff...
14:56 <+greensnark> Napking!
14:56 <+greensnark> How is your MDFi doing? :P
14:56 <+greensnark> You know, your wizmode game that you copied to cdo for some reason? :D
15:02 < Vandal> Eronarn around?
15:02 < cbus> greensnark, lol
15:02 < cbus> @whereis Napkin
15:02 < Gretell> Napkin the Warrior (L16 MDFi), a worshipper of Okawaru, is currently on Orc:2 after 43703 turns.
15:02 < cbus> ?? Napkin
15:02 < Henzell> vnapkin[1/3]: hosts CDO
15:03 < Napkin> lol, greensnark 
15:03 < Napkin> still alive though :-P
15:04 <+greensnark> :)
15:04 < Napkin> so, what do you suggest for newbie like be to play, greensnark?
15:04 <+greensnark> ?
15:04 <+greensnark> Next game or where to go this game?
15:04 <+greensnark> We should probably take this to ##crawl
15:05 < cbus> napkin, SpAs was very easy
15:05 < cbus> especially with the new needles :)
15:05 < cbus> (barely used em, but I did cheat vs boris and xtahua)
15:05 < Napkin> ##crawl is so spammy ;)
15:05 < Napkin> nobody's talking here anyways :D
15:06 < cbus> lol, me and vandal are talking ##crawl-dev stuff on the other chan :)
15:06 < Napkin> see, flying switch :D
15:06 < cbus> yes!
15:06 < cbus> fully automatic!
15:09 < Napkin> I meant next game - this char is already XL16 and will die in a minute or two ;)
15:09 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:14 < purge> Napkin: you mean you already have gotten past the interesting part of the game, start -> lair
15:14 < purge> and now its time to play again :)
15:14 < Napkin> well, it would interesting to see more than that just once a year, at least ;)
15:18 < CIA-81> greensnark * r7fc0151d1374 /crawl-ref/source/ (spl-mis.cc spl-mis.h): Fix fractured grammar in miscast death/foo causes.
15:19 < purge> wow that was very strange.. 3 orcs on D:1
15:20 < ais523> out-of-depth
15:20 < ais523> did you beat them?
15:20 < syllogism> !lg * place=d:1 killer=orc
15:20 < Henzell> 315. Fieros the Poker (L2 DSGl), slain by an orc (a -1,+1 orcish mace) on D:1 on 2010-01-05, with 98 points after 1031 turns and 0:03:05.
15:20 < purge> yeah i beat them but i have never ever seen that in all my gams
15:20 < purge> games
15:20 < ais523> Crawl tries its best to be unpredictable
15:20 < ais523> which includes blatantly out-of-depth monsters sometimes
15:21 < ais523> <Henzell> hilarious deaths[2/16]: !tv * place=D:7 killer=lich
15:21 < purge> well personally i don't consider normal orcs to be very ood even for d:1 :)
15:21 < ais523> that one's a classic
15:21 <+greensnark> That was a bug, actually
15:21 < purge> just i have never seen 1 let alone 3 together
15:21 < syllogism> it's a buggy vault though
15:22 < syllogism> shouldn't be though :P
15:31 <+doy> !lg * place=d:1 killer=yaktaur captain
15:31 < Henzell> 1. Imin the Skirmisher (L2 MuFi), shot by a yaktaur captain (bolt) on D:1 on 2007-03-24, with 73 points after 1105 turns and 0:04:31.
15:31 <+doy> that one's pretty hilarious
15:33 < ais523> doy: how did that happen? massively ood monster?
15:33 <+doy> ais523: yeah, this was before the ood nerf
15:36 < syllogism> the worst I've seen was a centaur captain
15:36 < ais523> one potential issue is that an ood monster which is easy for the player to beat for some reason would really throw off exp calculations
15:38 < ais523> just like insane randarts early on make a game a lot easier
15:38 -!- SiberOut [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:38 < ais523> a - the +10,+6 sabre of Onlifoud (weapon) {flame, rElec rC++ Str+1 Stlth}
15:38 < ais523> on dlvl 4
15:39 <+doy> ais523: for a while, polymorphing rats and stuff was really likely to make plain humans
15:39 < ais523> and they give lots of exp? whilst being easy?
15:39 <+doy> which because of something weird in their hd calculation, gave like 500xp
15:39 < ais523> ah
15:39 < cbus> ais523, crazy
15:39 < ais523> that was my best game, for kind-of obvious reasons
15:39 < ais523> and I died due to not knowing you couldn't read scrolls while confused
15:40 <+doy> made wand of polymorph other ridiculously good in the beginning for venom mages and such
15:44 <+Keskitalo> Ooh, never thought that polymorphing could be a neat way to get around resistances.
15:44 <+Keskitalo> But just did. Though I don't think that was the point, he? :)
15:50 -!- Siber [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
15:52 < purge> yeah but that is a major bug you found greensnark: you can shoot enslaved creatures and they will still be friendly
15:53 < cbus> maybe they are just VERY loyal? :)
15:53 <+kilobyte> that's done for theme reasons
15:53 <+kilobyte> they're not loyal, they hate you wholeheartly... but can't control themselves
15:54 < ais523> enslaved implies magical control of the actions
15:54 <+kilobyte> but the moment their strings drop they'll tell you what they think about you shooting them, be sure
15:55 <+greensnark> If you actually do damage, the enslavement breaks though
15:55 <+greensnark> But if you shoot them with poison that does no direct damage, they think you're a great guy
15:56 < cbus> :)
15:56 < cbus> greensnark, btw Sp with amulet of guardian spirit is pimp
15:56 < cbus> since they get large MP supply :)
15:56 < cbus> (and it regens parallell with normal hp)
16:00 -!- Ero_ [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:12 < purge> greensnark: i don't think thats true because i shot an enslaved scorpian to death
16:13 -!- mr0t [n=mr0t@ppp-70-132-140-16.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:15 <+greensnark> Oh
16:15 < syllogism> what spell were you using
16:15 <+greensnark> That should be fixed
16:15 <+greensnark> It's too cheap and easy to get rid of monsters that way
16:15 < syllogism> I think as long as you don't do over a certain fraction of their max hp they won't go hostile
16:16 < syllogism> this is mostly just a guess
16:16 <+greensnark> !tell due You and I should do a Great Grammar Overhaul for Crawl. Lots of terrible English in there now :/
16:16 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
16:16 <+doy> nah, you can totally just hit monsters to death with ctrl-dir
16:17 <+greensnark> I seem to recall my enslaved critters coming to their senses abruptly when I did that
16:17 <+greensnark> Unless the enslavement wore off naturally at just that moment each time
16:17 < syllogism> well spells are definitely making them hostile
16:17 <+doy> hmmm
16:17 < syllogism> melee is too...
16:17 <+greensnark> I could totally cheese them with a blowgun though :P
16:17 < cbus> did the darts skill get removed?
16:17 <+greensnark> They'd go "Haha, that tickles, stop, haha" *die*
16:17 < cbus> (is it throwing only?)
16:17 <+greensnark> cbus: Yep
16:18 <+greensnark> Throwing only
16:18 < cbus> ahh ok
16:19 < purge> greensnark: sometimes it seems so maybe its only with melee weapons
16:19 < purge> bows they don't seem to care
16:21 < syllogism> hmm plant intelligence monsters (jellies) dont seem to mind you hitting them
16:22 < Napkin> about the new rod descriptions: the info text about charges, maximal enchantment is usually below the line with Accuracy/Damage/Delay
16:22 < syllogism> animals dont either I think
16:23 <+doy> ah, that might be it
16:24 <+doy> i think i was mainly enslaving animals
16:24 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:24 < purge> ok just tested in wizard mode
16:24 <+greensnark> What about orc warriors?
16:24 < purge> melee will cancel enslavement on scorpions
16:24 < syllogism> @?? scorpion
16:24 < Gretell> scorpion (s) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 10(medium poison) | Res: magic(12) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 28.
16:24 < purge> throwing darts at them will not, and i assume thats the same with bows
16:24 < syllogism> scorpion is I_insect
16:24 <+greensnark> purge: Could you file a bug? :)
16:24 < purge> sure
16:25 <+greensnark> Thanks
16:25 <+kilobyte> zombies are not supposed to mind, they're just things
16:25 < syllogism> animals and plants dont either
16:25 <+greensnark> There should be consistency in how melee and beam attacks are handled, whatever the policy
16:27 < Ashenzari> Enslavement is not cancelled by ranged attacks (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=344) by purge
16:27 < syllogism> or hmm
16:28 < syllogism> plants dont mind ranged attacks but do mind melee
16:28 < syllogism> if you enslave the royal jelly and attack it some ranged skills you get friendly jellies
16:28 <+doy> @??royal jelly
16:28 < syllogism> and some debug warnings
16:29 < Gretell> the royal jelly (J) | Speed: 16 | HD: 21 | Health: 230 | AC/EV: 8/4 | Damage: 50(acid), 30(acid) | Flags: sense invisible | Res: magic(196), poison, acid+++, asphyx | XP: 15000.
16:29 < syllogism> doy: ?oVulnerability
16:29 <+doy> ah
16:29 < syllogism> "Newly created friendly god gift 'death ooze' was hurt by you, shouldn't be possible; please file a bug report" heh
16:30 <+sorear> greensnark: due: hey, what happened to ais523's patch :(
16:30 <+greensnark> syllogism: How did you manage that?
16:30 <+greensnark> sorear: ?
16:31 < ais523> I'll post it again if you like
16:31 < ais523> <ais523> my patch for that signal-handling issue: http://sprunge.us/JOTh?diff
16:31 < syllogism> greensnark: it spat out friendly jellies as soon as my bolt of fire hit it and then the same beam hit the death ooze
16:31 <+greensnark> And why is it a god gift? :P
16:31 < syllogism> no idea :P
16:31 <+greensnark> sorear: Can you apply the patch?
16:32 < syllogism> maybe because it's god=jiyva
16:32 <+sorear> greensnark: you and due had *plenty* of chances, but nooo, it has to be ME
16:33 <+doy> harsh!
16:33 <+Zaba> hmm
16:34 <+Zaba> Napkin++
16:34 <+greensnark> sorear's just posing
16:34 <+greensnark> And that's the first I heard of a patch :P
16:34 <+sorear> doy: what's the git command for applying that thing again?
16:35 <+doy> git am
16:35 <+sorear> thanks
16:36 < CIA-81> ais523 * r8005831c3a4e /crawl-ref/source/crash-u.cc: Don't crashdump on SIGTTIN and SIGTTOU
16:38 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-114-135-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:40 < CIA-81> sorear * r0cbe9f7261e4 /crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Add ais523 to CREDITS.txt
16:40 < ais523> if only contributing patches to NetHack was that simple...
16:40 < eith> haha
16:41 < cbus> lol
16:41 < cbus> first you need to get reach of the dev team and they live on an deserted mountain top guarded by pink elephants ;)
16:44 <+sorear> (I'm amazed at how low the bar for CREDITS.txt is.  I got into that file for adding an if to levdes.vim)
16:45 <+Keskitalo> :)
16:45 < ais523> cbus: it's different in my case; I've never had any trouble contacting the dev team, just have had problems getting anything useful out of them
16:45 < ais523> especially information
16:45 < ais523> the only way to get information out of them is to tell them and see if they contradict you, which makes it rather like a game of 20 questions
16:46 <+sorear> I, too, have contacted the devteam successfully
16:46 <+doy> sorear: i originally got in there for submitting bug reports
16:46 <+doy> (:
16:46 <+Keskitalo> Me too, I suggested the knight jumping was buggy. :D
16:47 <+Keskitalo> "I just get this 'illegal move' message over and over!"
16:47 < cbus> ais523, I found a bug that I posted and there was no feedback at all and it wasn't patched in the next version
16:47 <+Keskitalo> The knight chess piece is called "steed" in Finnish.
16:47 < cbus> ais523, so I'm not sure theres even a point in trying to contact them
16:47 < ais523> cbus: I do for bug reports
16:48 < cbus> ais523, I haven't played NH for a couple of years though so yeah... :)
16:48 < Napkin> Hey Zaba - what's up?
16:49 <+doy> my favorite bug that i submitted for nethack was that you could include terminal escape sequences in your petname in the options file
16:49 < Ero_> hahaha
16:49 <+doy> so you could leave a bones file with a pet that drew a purple L on the screen whenever it did something
16:49 < Ero_> that's amazing
16:50 < cbus> rofl
16:50 < cbus> :)
16:50 < cbus> thats awesome
16:50 < cbus> or ppl that named their fruits cockatrice corpse and stuff
16:50 <+Zaba> Napkin, you've made that nice version management thing on cdo
16:50 <+doy> well, nethack prevents that one
16:50 < cbus> has hpcolour or inventory colours/dump files gone into the main nethack source yet? :)
16:50 < ais523> I found a bug that allowed savescumming without write access to the saves directory
16:50 < ais523> cbus: nobody knows
16:51 < cbus> ais523, ahh, still on 3.4.3?
16:51 < Napkin> thanks :)
16:51 < ais523> cbus: and has been for years
16:51 < cbus> I bet it hasn't though :)
16:51 <+Zaba> an altar of veh under a flame cloud
16:51 <+Zaba> smart
16:51 < Napkin> yeah.. what's with those early single altars that are not reachable?
16:51 < cbus> napkin, meant to be reached "later"
16:52 <+Zaba> it's perfectly reachable
16:52 < Napkin> I thought people are supposed to "use" those
16:52 <+doy> Napkin: they're encouragment for you to come back for them
16:52 <+Zaba> and there's an artefact with rF+ near it
16:52 < cbus> napkin, I had an altar guarded by a moat with zombie fishes
16:52 <+Zaba> (and with good timing you don't need rF to reach it)
16:52 < cbus> napkin, at D:3 or something
16:52 < Napkin> by the time you can use them, you have found the temple already.. no?
16:52 < cbus> napkin, temple doesn't inculde all gods anymore
16:52 <+sorear> Napkin: the altar in question won't be in the temple
16:52 < Napkin> i mean.. it's not taking that long to find the temple
16:52 < Napkin> then it's even worse!
16:53 < cbus> I might be weird but I would almost just restart and hope it spawns in temple
16:53 < cbus> (since it's early anyway)
16:53 <+doy> Napkin: by the time you reach the temple you should be pretty close to strong enough to go back for those early vaults
16:53 < Napkin> I thought trying out gods is encouraged? that's just preventing people...
16:53 <+doy> d:
16:53 < Ero_> cbus: that's always been an option, with pre-temple altars
16:53 < Napkin> like the altars surrounded by lava or deep water...
16:53 <+doy> Napkin: yes, that's what this is trying to encourage
16:53 < ais523> Napkin: is it wrong that my best game was MDFi of Zin?
16:53 < Napkin> cbus even quit his game because of that
16:53 <+Zaba> why did killing a slave feel strangely unrewarding?
16:53 <+doy> Napkin: if the oka altar is too hard to reach, maybe you want to try a different god that's easier to get to
16:54 < cbus> doy, doesn't pretty much all of the gods kill you if you leave em early on? :)
16:54 <+doy> cbus: why would you leave them?
16:54 < cbus> doy, no
16:54 < Napkin> doy, there are all kind of altars, but I haven't seen an okawaru temple yet
16:54 < Napkin> *single altars
16:54 <+doy> Napkin: good! try a different god this time!
16:54 < ogaz> Zaba: you don't get exp for slaves
16:54 <+doy> that's the whole point
16:54 < Napkin> doy - that's the point
16:54 < Napkin> i would have!
16:55 <+sorear> Napkin: the theory is that by XL10 you should be able to access any of the overflow altars
16:55 < Napkin> but I couldn't - thanks to making it unaccessible!
16:55 <+doy> Napkin: the early vaults are entirely extra
16:55 < syllogism> lies :P
16:55 <+doy> the temple is still in the same place it was before
16:55 < Napkin> this is all blabla
16:55 <+sorear> Napkin: we didn't make every god unaccessible
16:55 < Napkin> i thought you wanted to encourage people.. this is just putting them off
16:55 <+doy> so there are still going to be like 7 or 8 gods that are completely free
16:55 <+sorear> Napkin: we made *one* god unaccessible
16:55 <+sorear> pick another!
16:56 <+sorear> was it your favorite god?  diversify!
16:56 < Napkin> altar surrounded by deep water
16:56 < Napkin> altar surrounded by lava
16:56 < Napkin> altar with flame right on it
16:56 < syllogism> the point is you aren't supposed to pick that god
16:56 <+doy> not immediately anyway
16:56 < syllogism> but you can if you really want
16:56 <+doy> there are always going to be over half of the gods in the temple
16:57 <+doy> so you should have plenty of a selection of gods that are as easy to take as they were previously
16:57 <+sorear> or is one god so brokenly powerful that if you can't worship him in the Temple, the game isn't worth playing?
16:57 < Napkin> sorry - that way it's not in the least making players choose a different god than their favorite.
16:57 < syllogism> or if you get an early overflow vault that's easy to reach you might pick it instead of waiting for temple
16:57 < Ashenzari> +Rage food requirement (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=345) by tinyrodent
16:57 <+doy> Napkin: how do you mean?
16:58 <+doy> Napkin: by the time you reach the temple, you should be strong enough to be able to survive a turn or two in a flame cloud
16:58 <+doy> so go back for it if it's really that imporant
16:58 <+doy> important
16:58 < syllogism> are you saying that when they reach the temple and notice their planned god isn't there, they won't pick another?
16:59 < syllogism> most players will
16:59 < Napkin> i know, i know, i am newbie, and I don't count, etc - but I would have chosen <other god> - but ok, I couldn't.. so I just go on and wait for temple
16:59 <+doy> Napkin: i'm not sure what you're trying to say here - what is it that you think this setup is encouraging people to do?
17:00 < Napkin> try out different gods?
17:00 <+doy> yes, that is the intention
17:00 <+doy> is it not doing that?
17:00 < Napkin> if that's not the case - then excuse me
17:00 < Napkin> no, it's not
17:00 <+doy> what is it doing then?
17:01 < Napkin> at least for me - it's making me look at the altar of <different god than usually>, wonder why it's not been made accessible - and then I go on to temple to choose what I know
17:01 < cbus> doy, its encouraging noobs to try new gods (if they don't get that far that often)
17:01 < cbus> other players might just restart :)
17:02 <+doy> Napkin: sure, that will happen occasionally
17:02 < Napkin> happened to me each and every time
17:02 <+doy> but not any more often than the opposite
17:02 < cbus> I pick a god before I start the game
17:02 <+doy> bad luck
17:02 <+doy> (:
17:02 < cbus> not depending on the first altar I reach
17:02 < Ashenzari> Two-headed ogres may throw one of their giant clubs (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=346) by tinyrodent
17:02 <+doy> cbus: well, you're a special case to basically every single tweak we make to the game, so d:
17:02 <+Keskitalo> Not all the overflow altars are with obstacles, not sure what the ratio should be. I think we can tweak that quite well?
17:03 < Napkin> a friend of mine plays.. sees this unaccessible altar and asks me, what is it good for? I tell him, it's to encourage him to try the god - and he asks, huh? so why not make it accessible? why put lava around it?
17:03 <+doy> Napkin: no, it's to encourage him to try other gods
17:03 <+doy> not that one
17:03 < Napkin> huh?
17:03 < cbus> so instead of incouraging ppl to try gods you encourage them to try other gods
17:04 < cbus> hmm, spelling :)
17:04 <+doy> Napkin: if there's an early altar of veh in a flame cloud, that's there to encourage you to try some god other than veh
17:04 < Napkin> so.. it's actually there to prevent people to choose the god of the altar?
17:04 <+doy> you can still choose that one if you want
17:04 <+doy> but it'll just be more difficult
17:04 <+doy> like i said, the majority of the altars will be freely accessible
17:05 <+doy> you just have to get to the temple, like before
17:05 < Ero_> also note that random altars can still show up
17:05 < Ero_> so even if you can't get to an overflow for X god
17:05 < Ero_> that doesn't mean you won't be able to take them
17:05 <+doy> Napkin: the intention wasn't to make getting gods easier by any significant amount than it has been in the past
17:05 <+doy> just to make the selection process more interesting
17:05 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, there's a lot of altars now before the temple.
17:06 < syllogism> napkin: altars that appear as "overflow" altars do not appear in temple
17:06 < syllogism> does it make sense now?
17:06 < Napkin> so.. the early altars are there to prevent people to choose that god early?
17:06 <+doy> Napkin: basically, yeah
17:06 < Napkin> then at least move it to levels after the temple? otherwise pro's like cbus will just quit the game
17:06 < syllogism> you often get them after the temple
17:06 <+doy> yeah, they're spread out before and after the temple
17:07 < cbus> napkin, I quit if it isn't in temple
17:07 < Napkin> and newbies won't wonder..
17:07 < cbus> napkin, tbh
17:07 < cbus> napkin, to much work running around :)
17:07 <+doy> and i don't think we should take cbus's playstyle as indicative of anything
17:09 < cbus> well maybe not if its guaranteed close enough
17:09 < cbus> but couldn't it spawn up to D:13 or somethingish?
17:09 < cbus> D:13 vs D:7 is pretty far
17:10 <+doy> cbus: you do realize you can ^F altar and just get taken straight to the altar you found earlier, right?
17:10 < cbus> yes
17:10 <+doy> i don't think "too much running around" is a reasonable criticism d:
17:10 < cbus> but if it hasn't spawned before temple
17:10 < cbus> and you have to search even deeper for it
17:10 <+doy> and i don't remember what the max depth was set to
17:11 < syllogism> i somehow recall it being 9
17:11 <+doy> ??branch depths
17:11 < Henzell> branch depths[1/2]: Blade=Vault:4-6, Crypt=Vault:2-4, Elf=Orc:3-4, Hive=D:11-16, Lair=D:8-13,  Orc=D:6-11, Shoal=Lair:2-7, Slime=Lair:8-10, Snake=Lair:3-8, Swamp=Lair:2-7, Temple=D:4-7, Tomb=Crypt:2-3, Vault=D:14-19, Zot=D:27
17:12 <+sorear> for what it's worth, I actually agree with Napkin here
17:12 <+sorear> the overflow system would make more sense if the altars were strictly after Temple
17:13 <+doy> shrug, i don't think so
17:13 <+sorear> possibly bump Temple up to 3+d4
17:13 <+doy> i like things that encourage people to come back to previous levels
17:13 <+doy> we don't have enough of that
17:13 < mr0t> hrm
17:13 <+doy> and temple should definitely not get any shallower
17:13 < mr0t> like example?
17:13 <+doy> or wait
17:13 < cbus> ziggurat
17:13 <+doy> temple is already 3+d4
17:13 < mr0t> hrm
17:14 < Napkin> hihi
17:14 < mr0t> what about like, elf
17:14 <+sorear> 2+d3 then
17:14 <+doy> sorear: yeah, i don't think we should make temple any shallower
17:16 <+Keskitalo> Updatet cdo/trunk
17:16 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@80-41-163-128.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:18 -!- sorear [n=stefan@ip72-220-237-239.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
17:20 -!- sorear [n=stefan@ip72-220-237-239.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:20 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v sorear] by ChanServ
17:21 <+sorear> bleh
17:21 < Napkin> that's because you agreed to me :-P
17:21 -!- N78291 [n=null@130-127-45-6.chouse.resnet.clemson.edu] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:24 < purge> i dislike the inaccessable overflow altars surrounded by deep water or lava as well. I don't see why you need to force newbies to play things they aren't comfortable with
17:24 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:25 < purge> and for experienced players, its just an inconvience that doesn't really seem to serve a purpose
17:31 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-136-49.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
17:31 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA
17:34 <+doy> sorear: what about storing the logfile as a sqlite db, and then including a script to generate an xlogfile version of it?
17:34 <+doy> the script could also generate the scores file just as easily
17:36 <+sorear> doy: append-only xlogfile is trivial to replicate, you just use wget -c
17:36 <+sorear> doy: this is critical for the operation of Henzell's CDO data
17:37 <+sorear> if the master file were an unordered sqlite db, you'd need to use something like rsync, and it'd be massively less efficient
17:37 <+sorear> Henzell runs a single HTTP Range: request with an empty responce every five minutes
17:38 <+sorear> (also we really should be having this discussion on crd)
17:38 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@80-41-163-128.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:38 <+doy> so have cdo run a script that pulls the data out of the db into an xlogfile format file every 5 minutes
17:38 <+doy> that doesn't seem that hard
17:39 <+sorear> How would you guarantee that the ordering doesn't randomly change
17:39 <+doy> what?
17:39 <+doy> how would it?
17:39 < ais523> sorear: it isn't a Perl hash
17:40 <+sorear> it just seems fragile to rely on the database always returning rows in chronological order
17:40 <+doy> sorear: you realize that this is a database
17:40 <+doy> and so you can order the results
17:40 <+doy> right?
17:40 <+sorear> yes
17:40 <+sorear> but what would it be ordered by
17:40 <+sorear> serial number?
17:41 < ais523> time added
17:41 < ais523> databases store rows in the order they were added, or in primary key order if you have one
17:41 <+doy> end date would be simplest, but could have collisions
17:41 <+doy> could just use an autoincrementing game id if necessary
17:41 <+sorear> ais523: real-world computer clocks sometimes tick backward, and it is absolutely essential that new data never appear in the middle of a file being replicated with wget
17:42 < ais523> sorear: it does not depend on the clock
17:42 < ais523> it depends on what was in the file when the data was added
17:42 < ais523> as in, new data is always added at the end of the file
17:42 < ais523> unless you have a primary key to change it
17:42 <+sorear> oh, I thought you meant sorting by an explicit date field
17:42 <+sorear> huh
17:42 <+doy> you make an 'id' field
17:42 <+doy> and tell it to autoincrement
17:42 <+doy> and you're done
17:42 <+sorear> I always thought SQL was unordered unless stated otherwise
17:43 <+sorear> doy: I guess
17:43 <+doy> sorear: theoretically it probably is unordered, but ordered is usually the most efficient for something like sqlite
17:43 <+doy> also, forcing an order is trivial
17:43 <+doy> like i just said
17:43 <+doy> so this really is a non-issue
17:44 <+doy> also
17:44 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-163-128.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
17:44 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA
17:44 <+sorear> sqlite is ordered because it uses an integer autoincrement primary key for all tables
17:44 <+doy> the script that updates the xlogfile could just do "select * from games where end >= <whatever the last update was>"
17:44 <+sorear> with an index on the 'real' primary key
17:44 <+doy> and then it wouldn't matter at all
17:45 <+doy> since the xlogfile version only gets appended to
17:45 <+doy> that way would probably be massively more efficient anyway
17:45 <+doy> as opposed to regenerating the whole file every time
17:45 <+sorear> doy: what happens if the script runs, then ntpdate sets the clock back by five seconds, then somebody dies and leaves a record with end before the last update
17:46 < ais523> it ends up after the ones that are already in the file
17:46 <+doy> sorear: then we use the autoincrementing game id
17:46 <+doy> rather than the end date
17:46 < ais523> with an earlier date but later autoincrement if you have one, or later in the file otherwise
17:46 <+doy> this is not a difficult problem
17:46 <+doy> this is the kind of thing that sql was designed to solve
17:47 <+sorear> I see how this could work
17:48 <+sorear> (hey, we could get rid of the arbitrary N high score limit like this)
17:48 <+doy> yes, that was part of my point
17:48 <+doy> (:
17:48 <+doy> there's no reason we need to keep a separate file for high scores
17:48 <+sorear> I somewhat question what effect this would have for local games
17:48 <+doy> since all the information is in the logfile anyway
17:48 <+doy> what do you mean?
17:49 <+sorear> Leaving an infinitely-growing logfile seems like bad form for !DGAMELAUNCH
17:51 <+doy> well, we could have local games just drop the rows for all but the highest 100 scores or something if it's an issue
17:51 <+doy> i don't think it really is though
17:53 <+doy> i mean, it's less than a kb of data per game, you'd have to be playing a pretty huge number of games for that to build up to a serious amount
17:55 <+Keskitalo> Hehehee. I'm enjoying Poison Weapon on the AM.
17:57 <+doy> !lg *
17:57 < Henzell> 501840. leilas the Charm-Maker (L4 DEEn), slain by Sigmund (a +1,+1 scythe) on D:3 on 2010-01-06, with 201 points after 3388 turns and 0:20:11.
17:57 <+doy> !gamesby *
17:57 < syllogism> Keskitalo: you find annihilations/necronomicon/demonology on d3?
17:57 < Henzell> * has played 501840 games, between  and 20100106, won 2126 (0.4%), high score 36620901, total score 7425347448, total turns 2228894676, total time 226456:42:33.
17:57 < syllogism> found?
17:57 <+Keskitalo> Apparently, yeah.
17:58 <+doy> !lg 1
17:58 < Henzell> 1. doy the Grave Robber (L2 DrDK), slain by Ijyb (a club) on D:1 on 2006-12-14, with 109 points after 1193 turns and 0:31:04.
17:58 <+doy> !lg * 1
17:58 < Henzell> 1. Testing the Shield-Bearer (L1 HuFi), got out of the dungeon alive on 2006-12-02, with 256 points after 45 turns and 0:00:16.
17:58 <+Keskitalo> Hmm. Looks like the arrows I shot with Poison Weapon'd bow stayed poisoned.
17:59 <+Keskitalo> Yeah. This is a bug, yes?
17:59 < syllogism> try it again
17:59 < syllogism> :P
17:59 <+sorear> !lg * 2
17:59 < Henzell> 2. Eidolos the Stinger (L4 HuVM), slain by a gnoll on D:1 on 2006-12-02, with 116 points after 1310 turns and 0:07:07.
18:00 <+sorear> hah, Eidolos
18:01 <+doy> anyway, point is, cao's been running for 4 years with a pretty significant load, and only 500k games, and logfiles for 500k games wouldn't really be in danger of filling up someone's hard drive
18:01 <+Keskitalo> Doesn't happen with Fire Brand.
18:02 <+Keskitalo> Does happen with a bow of venom.
18:02 < ais523> would it be problematic if the log files were much larger than usual?
18:02 < ais523> at the moment I'm running my Crawl bot only locally because a) I haven't written a telnet/ssh interface yet, and b) I fear that the logfiles would grow very large
18:02 < Ashenzari> Vandal created page Blade consolidation at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:item:blade_consolidation
18:02 < ais523> as it logs server-side
18:02 <+doy> better unit of measurement: cao has recorded almost 26 years worth of playtime
18:03 <+sorear> ais523: not the same
18:03 < ais523> sorear: what do you mean by "not the same"?
18:03 <+sorear> ais523: we're taling about http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logfile04
18:04 < ais523> ah
18:04 < ais523> rather than the morgue files
18:07 < Ashenzari> Bows of venom permabrand ammo (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=347) by evktalo
18:10 < Vandal> sorear, after combining the existing tables it seems like there aren't really going to be balance issues, at least not obvious ones
18:11 < Vandal> and there are still less blades than maces XD
18:11 <+doy> which existing tables?
18:11 < Vandal> Short and Long Blades
18:11 <+doy> ah
18:11 < Vandal> It progresses like Maces do
18:12 < Vandal> or Axes..
18:13 < Vandal> Would this simple consolidation method be worth testing on CDO?
18:13 <+doy> no
18:13 <+doy> not now anyway
18:13 <+doy> it's certainly not a target for 0.6
18:13 <+Keskitalo> sorear: The poisoned ammo definitely doesn't feel overpowered. (not counting the permabranding, hehe)
18:13 < Vandal> right.. you guys have your list of "must do" things
18:13 < Vandal> Is that list public? I'm just curious
18:14 <+doy> Vandal: yeah, dpeg sends out emails every once in a while
18:14 < eith> its on the mailing list
18:14 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, there's a wiki page too.
18:14 < Vandal> ah
18:17 <+sorear> rax: Napkin: I'd like your feedback on the score storage change proposals on CRD
18:17 <@rax> I consider the high scores file a blight and disable it on CAO. You can make it a flying unicorn for all I care.
18:18 <+doy> it could be reenabled if it just became part of the normal logfile
18:18 <+doy> (:
18:18 <@rax> If you turn the logfile into a database, you have to rewrite my logfile handling code. <3
18:18 <+doy> hehe
18:19 <+doy> if we turn the logfile into a database, there will at least be scripts to regenerate old-style logfiles from the db data
18:19 <@rax> (Also it means you are putting a database into my chroot.)
18:19 <@rax> (The other one of those, the levels DB, already causes me hella problems.)
18:19 <+doy> problems how?
18:20 <@rax> I can't update .des files with crawl games running.
18:20 <@rax> I never don't have crawl games running.
18:20 <+sorear> the levels stuff isn't a proper database though
18:20 <@rax> This is true. 
18:20 <+sorear> it's a hand-hacked binary format sharing a lot of code with the saves
18:21 <+sorear> and with no transactions and inadequate locking
18:21 <+doy> what do we use sqlite for currently?
18:22 <+sorear> ndbm emulation
18:22 <+doy> i meant what game features d:
18:22 <+sorear> monster speech and item descriptions
18:23 <+doy> so it wouldn't really require adding anything additional to the chroot then, since it's already in use
18:23 <@rax> Is SQLite just built into the crawl binary?
18:23 <+sorear> well, it might be dynamically linked, but yes
18:24 <+sorear> greensnark had the brilliant idea of using SQLite as a portable, transaction-capable zip replacement for savefiles
18:24 <@rax> We've had issue with sqlite under medium load at work. I don't _think_ Crawl would be generating that kind of load, though.
18:25 <@rax> I'd have to do some research. 
18:25 <@rax> In general I'm stodgy and resist change, so.
18:25 <+doy> yeah, we should do some tests with it to make sure it won't be an issue in cases like that
18:25 <+sorear> in what kind of cases?
18:25 <+sorear> this is all going on a branch for now anyway
18:26 <@rax> Attempts to access the database simultaneously, mostly.
18:26 <@rax> At least that's what I remember.
18:26 <+doy> yeah, sqlite doesn't (or at least didn't, don't know the current status) handle locking incredibly well
18:26 <@rax> (In general I find the current savefile format to be a feature --- I can delete broken levels and that sort of thing. Hopefully that would stick around.)
18:26 <+sorear> sqlite just uses fcntl reader-writer locks
18:27 <+doy> sorear: right, which are quite coarse-grained
18:27 <+sorear> so it won't do well under high write contention
18:27 <+doy> yeah
18:27 <+sorear> but it should be fine for savefiles (1 writer) or game data (0 writer, many reader)
18:27 <+doy> rax: it might turn into a script to run or something, but the capability should remain pretty easy
18:28 <+sorear> echo "delete from levels where place = 'D:12';" | sqlite3 /var/lib/dgamelaunch/crawl-rel/saves/sorear
18:28 <+doy> there could be multiple writers for a sqlite-based logfile, but not nearly enough to make a difference
18:28 <+Zaba> sorear, I think, that you can do sqlite3 <file> <sql query>
18:28 <+doy> i think anyway
18:29 <@rax> I'm sure it's _doable_, but it doesn't fit into my current workflow and I personally don't see anything gained from it. And don't want sqlite in my chroot.
18:29 <+doy> rax: my point is that sqlite already is in your chroot, isn't it?
18:29 <@rax> If it is, I didn't put it there, and I can't run it from there.
18:29 <+doy> oh, i see
18:30 <+doy> well, you can access the chroot files from outside of the chroot though, can't you?
18:30 <@rax> It's possible that I am a stop energy elemental and y'all should ignore me.
18:30 <@rax> Yes, I can. 
18:30 <+doy> i mean, i don't see why anything other than the game processes themselves have to be running in the chroot
18:30 <+doy> and so having the sqlite3 binary outside of the chroot shouldn't be an issue
18:31 <+sorear> does henzell run a chroot nowadays?
18:31 <@rax> I don't believe so, no.
18:31 <@rax> Not unless greensnark snuck one in. :)
18:31 <+doy> henzell's data comes from a postgres database, doesn't it?
18:32 <+sorear> it's mysql now
18:32 <+doy> ah
18:32 <+sorear> was postgres or sqlite before, don't recall
18:32 <+doy> but still, more annoying to stick into a chroot
18:32 <+sorear> (what happened to Doryen?)
18:32 <+doy> it used sqlite way back in the day
18:32 <+doy> but was really slow
18:32 <+doy> since sqlite can't really do caching
18:32 <+doy> didn't remember if it switched to mysql or postgres
18:33 <+sorear> I remember the minute-long queries whenever you missed an index
18:33 <+doy> yeah
18:33 <+doy> (:
18:33 <@rax> It is possible that I need to find a paxed to my dtype.
18:34 <+doy> heh
18:34 <+sorear> rax: I thought you had that in greensnark
18:34 <+doy> greensnark is around a lot less these days
18:34 <+doy> (:
18:35 <@rax> greensnark has been beyond invaluable, but I still do a bunch of the day to day stuff, dealing with updates, resetting passwords, &c.
18:35 <@rax> Otherwise, you wouldn't care about my opinion on these issues at all :)
18:43  * rax has slain the conversation! rax gains 12 experience points.
18:43 < mr0t> heh
18:43 < mr0t> I just did that in ##c-o/t, cept I *lost* experience, because the conversation was draining
18:43 < mr0t> heh, I made a slight funny
18:48 < N78291> should sacrifice prayers take a turn if there is nothing to sacrifice?
18:49 < dis_astranagant> probably not
18:50 < dis_astranagant> especially with o being adjacent to it
18:58  * paxed is summoned, like a bad smell on a windy day.
18:59 < paxed> rax: mmmmmyeeeessss?
19:01 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-114-135-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
19:03 -!- Ero_ [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:17 -!- by [n=rob@g225125141.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
19:17 -!- by_ [n=rob@e177085143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:17 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by_] by ChanServ
19:39 -!- by_ is now known as by
19:44 < Napkin> oh, right - ability to delete a level would be lost?
19:44 <+doy> Napkin: no
19:45 <@rax> paxed: You want to admin more servers? :P
19:45 <+doy> levels wouldn't be separate files, but deleting a specific level from within a save file would still be easy
19:45 < Napkin> as in - execute an sqlite3 statement?
19:45 < Napkin> quite a pain
19:45 <+doy> Napkin: as in, run a script, which does the sqlite stuff for you
19:46 < Napkin> ugly
19:46 < Napkin> ugly solution
19:46 <+doy> rm_level d:12 /path/to/save
19:46 <@rax> Wait, Napkin feels the same as me? I feel less unreasonable now :)
19:46 <+doy> vs rm /path/to/save/level.12
19:46 <+doy> or whatever
19:46 <+doy> it's not going to be any uglier
19:46 < Napkin> I am already crushed by so many scripts
19:46 <+doy> at least, that doesn't look any uglier to me
19:46 < paxed> rax: nao doesn't actually need much babysitting, but still, no :P
19:46 < Napkin> rax :) How's it going?
19:47 < Napkin> rax not wanting to have sqlite3 in her chroot - that's the difficult thing
19:47 < paxed> doy: would all the savefiles and levels be in one db file?
19:47 < Napkin> I have it in there already because of the version-chooser.sh
19:47 <+doy> paxed: one save file per game, containing all of the levels
19:47 <+doy> Napkin: sqlite3 doesn't need to be in the chroot
19:48 <+doy> you aren't going to be in the chroot when doing things like deleting levels
19:48 < Napkin> true
19:48 <+doy> and crawl itself already has the sqlite libraries linked in
19:48 < Napkin> statically, yes
19:48 < paxed> doy: remember that only one process can access a db file at one time...
19:48 <+doy> paxed: only one process can write to a db file at one time
19:49 < paxed> doy: oh. i misremembered then...
19:50 <+doy> but when is more than one process going to be accessing a save file anyway
19:51 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * re3e05b162240 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (41 files in 5 dirs): Move ranged weapon tiles into new weapon/ranged folder.
19:51 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r9adf111e4d30 /crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 3 dirs): Reuse potion icons for new needle brands: slow, sickness, paralysis, rage, ...
19:51 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r6df1f8df4d0b /crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Distinguish icons of neutral and good neutral monsters.
19:51 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."]
19:52 <+sorear> The fact that c[ad]o are running without SAVE_PACKAGE_CMD is somewhat of an awkward development
19:52 < Vandal> What does that mean?
19:52 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:52 <@rax> It means that savefiles are stored in their native format and not in a .zip file or something.
19:53 -!- Ero_ [n=ero@149.152.23.34] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:53 < Vandal> This is bad because they're bigger than they need to be?
19:54 <+sorear> This is bad because I'm trying for uniformity
19:54 <+sorear> currently, we use unbundled saves on weird OSes, .zip on Windows and Linux, and .tar.gz on BSD and OSX
19:55 < Vandal> huh
19:55 <+sorear> I was going to build a portable packaging system that we could use everywhere, and since it works everywhere, make it non-optional
19:55 < Vandal> actually .. this sounds like a good opportunity for me to learn to use linux or something
19:55 < Vandal> since usually my games preclude me from being able to
19:55 <+Zaba> Vandal, learning linux is easy.  man man
19:56 < ais523> Vandal: planning to learn GUI linux, or command-line linux?
19:56 < Ero_> Zaba: no homo
19:56 < ais523> you can use either or mix them, but they're rather differnt ways of operating
19:57 <+sorear> the roguelike genre is mostly centered on Linux
19:57 <+sorear> though Crawl is a bit of an oddball, it started on DOS and was ported to Linux ca 3.0
19:57 < ais523> Linux tty is where I test and develop roguelikes, definitely
19:57 < ais523> DOS is possibly second just because it's also a tty-heavy operating system
19:59 < Ero_> i should really install linux
19:59 < Ero_> i have partitions set up for it, even
20:01 < nrook> sorear's idea would make a hearse-style program much easier, no?
20:01 < nrook> or would there still be incompatibility issues?
20:01 -!- N78291 [n=null@130-127-45-6.chouse.resnet.clemson.edu] has quit ["exit"]
20:01 <+sorear> it wouldn't have any effect on hearse
20:02 < Vandal> I have messed around a little with linux
20:02 < Vandal> I started using computers with DOS 6 or something
20:02 < Vandal> Not afraid of command lines
20:02 < nrook> sorear: oh, okay. I'd ask why not, but I trust you on that one
20:03 < Vandal> Ran a web server using FreeBSD once :o
20:03 < Vandal> but this was a long time ago
20:03 <+sorear> nrook: because I'm not actually changing the layout of bones files
20:04 < Vandal> Not sure how I should go about this though
20:04 < Vandal> I guess I would need a new partition
20:04 < nrook> sorear: ...oh, right. save files are irrelevant to shipping bones around. never mind!
20:05 <+sorear> some other things I've thought of doing, however, would
20:11 < Napkin> for the record: the logfile of CDO is checked and wget --continue every minute.
20:12 < Napkin> so, no, creating it with a script out of a db is just total waste of cpu
20:28 -!- Ero_ [n=ero@149.152.23.34] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20:35 -!- Ero_ [n=ero@149.152.23.34] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:40 < Napkin> i'd prefer to write to a real db instead
20:40 < Napkin> cao and cdo could both write there
20:42 <+doy> that seems like a pretty serious pain all around
20:46 < Napkin> what? using a proper db?
20:46 <+doy> yes
20:46 < Napkin> lol..
20:47 < Napkin> but writing the logfile into a sqlitedb, which then creates a flat file, which is read and then written into a db again is not?
20:47 <+doy> having to maintain two separate codepaths for logfile stuff, having to allow crawl processes inside the chroot to access network ports, etc
20:48 <+doy> Napkin: the flat file part isn't really necessary at all
20:48 < Napkin> chroots are not limited apart from path, doy
20:48 <+doy> except to keep compatibility with old setups
20:48 < Napkin> then how to transfer it to another server?
20:48 <+doy> Napkin: well, run an actual db server, and just import the data directly from the sqlite db
20:49 < Napkin> so where's the problem of skipping the sqlite part?
20:49 <+doy> you can do all of the server maintenance stuff from outside of the crawl binary
20:50 <+doy> requiring crawl itself to do every part of this just sounds like a mess
20:50 < Napkin> heh
20:50 <+doy> what happens when the db server goes down?
20:50 <+doy> do games just get lost?
20:50 <+doy> does the crawl process hang?
20:51 < Napkin> yeah.. what about a hanging crawl process - no other process can write into the sqlitedb?
20:52 <+sorear> I like the way I post on c-r-d and all the replies are on ##crawl-dev
20:52 <+doy> if it hangs at the exact point where it's writing to the db, sure
20:52 <+doy> but that would corrupt a plaintext logfile too
20:52 <+doy> so
20:52 < Napkin> anyways, not in the mood to argue
20:52 < Napkin> do as you please
20:53 <+doy> shrug, if it really is going to be a problem, we should work that out before making any actual decisions
20:53 <+doy> i'm really not *trying* to make things more difficult for server admins
20:53 <+doy> (:
20:54 < Napkin> suggesting a script to create a flatfile..
20:54 <+doy> well, that was just one option, to allow for changing the current setup as little as possible
20:55 <+doy> if changing the current setup is more possible, there are better options
20:55 <+doy> but i don't really know that much about how the server stuff works, so
20:55 <+doy> probably should get greensnark's opinion
20:55 <+doy> he'd have a better idea about what's reasonable
20:55 <+sorear> I have user-level shell access to develz
20:56 <+sorear> yeah greensnark would be better than me
20:56 < Napkin> to create such a script? jesus christ..
20:56 < Napkin> :-X
20:56 < Napkin> o/
20:56 <+doy> what?
20:56 <+doy> you're focusing too much on this script idea(:
20:57 <+doy> i'm not at all saying that's the way things should work
20:57 <+doy> i suggested it more as a backwards compatibility option
21:14 < Twinge> How do I easily auto update my copy of course via git?  Remote -> Fetch From -> origin does something, but all my files are still from 12/31
21:14 < Twinge> s/course/source
21:15 <+by> git pull
21:15 <+doy> Twinge: fetching just downloads the files
21:15 <+doy> to update your working copy, you need to merge in origin/master
21:15 < ais523> you need to do a fetch and a merge; "git pull" is a fetch and a merge combined
21:15 < ais523> and works out the options for fetch and merge for you, so you don't have to figure it out
21:15 < ais523> "git pull origin master" should be all you need
21:16 <+doy> "git pull" should be all you need, since origin and master should be the defaults
21:17 < Twinge> Nod.  Alrighty.  I was using the gui since it seemed like it'd be easier :P
21:17 <+doy> shrug, never used the gui
21:17 <+doy> would be surprised if it didn't have an option for pull though
21:24 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:24 < Twinge> I don't see one, but I might be missing it.  Shrug.
21:25 <+doy> i should really fix that
21:25 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:28 <+by> are needles still unresistable on cdo?
21:28 <+doy> i think so
21:28 < syllogism> yes
21:28 < Napkin> update needed?
21:28 < Twinge> Dunno when napkin last updated, but probably not since 7 hours ago
21:28 < syllogism> or hmm
21:28 < syllogism> keskitalo says he updated ~5 hours ago
21:29 < Twinge> That should be recent enough then.  They'll be unresistable for HD2 or less even if you're unskilled.
21:30 < Twinge> Other than that, depends on blowgun's enchantment, your skill level, and the mob's HD
21:30 < syllogism> but it doesn't look like he did?
21:30 < syllogism> maybe he just meant the windows binaries
21:31 <+by> cdo is at b1ee54b1 (monday, 22:00 +0530
21:31 <+by> )
21:31 < syllogism> yeah
21:31 < Twinge> Napkin: So yes, update needed =)
21:31 <+doy> yeah, i think only napkin can update the copy actually running
21:35 -!- N78291 [n=null@130-127-45-6.chouse.resnet.clemson.edu] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:41 < Twinge> So the exp formula is listed as 'experience = (16 + maxhp) * HD * HD * exp_mod * (100 + diff. score) * speed         / 100000'; anyone know what 'diff. score' is?
21:45 <+doy> Twinge: probably some value calculated from the monster's attacks, spells, etc
21:48 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rb5889b702ddc /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/unique/nikola.png: Tweak Nikola's tile to make him look like his hair is standing on end.
21:48 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r91a461104cc5 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/animals/shark.png: Clean up shark tile.
21:49 < Twinge> Hmm.  Can't find where it's actually handled anywhere.  Or rather, I go where it says it's handled and I cannot see any of the info I'm looking for :P  Maybe it'll just be easier to get myself a compiler and test by trial and error, hehe
21:49 <+doy> !source exper_value
21:49 < Henzell> Lines pasted to http://pastebin.com/m7ff3b40b
21:49 <+doy> ^^ there
21:50 <+doy> the 'diff' variable
21:50 < ais523> Twinge: you should definitely get a compiler yourself, if not for that reason then because it's generally useful for loads of other stuff to
21:50 < ais523> *too
21:50 < Twinge> Ah ha, cool.
21:51 < Twinge> All I was able to track down was "int exper_value(const monsters *monster);" with no further definition ;/
21:52 <+doy> Twinge: this is what things like grep are for
21:52 <+doy> (:
21:53 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
21:53 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2040-g6df1f8d (15.2)
21:53 < Napkin> since 21:30
21:57 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@ip102.148.adsl.wplus.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:57 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba] by ChanServ
22:10 < Twinge> doyL Yeah, Windows 'search within files' doesn't eaactly compare; I've never ended up getting a good program to do that really.
22:10 < syllogism> it's fine if you index the files
22:29 -!- Ero_ [n=ero@149.152.23.34] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
22:35 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:35 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
22:35 <@dpeg> Cheers
22:35 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
22:35 <@dpeg> !messages
22:35 < Henzell> (1/2) Eronarn said (3d 12h 25m 34s ago): I put up a load of Jiyva mutations on the relevant brainstorm page. Find people to give feedback on them!
22:35 <@dpeg> !messages
22:35 < Henzell> (1/1) due said (18h 8m 2s ago): Psst, Botono!
22:36 <@dpeg> !tell due Not forgotten. I already sacrificed a sheep for better results, but it seems that kids and nuns are needed.
22:36 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let due know.
22:43 < nrook> are there any plans about nerfing the stone of earth elementals?
22:43 <@dpeg> nrook: the intention yes, plans no
22:43 <@dpeg> If I see a good plan, I'd have no qualms suggesting use for 0.6.
22:43 <@dpeg> Of course, I am not an abuser, so I need help =)
22:44 < nrook> dpeg: the stone of earth elementals requires little investment of skills (5 earth is little, and evo is nice for tons of other things anyway)
22:44 <+by> make the stone capable of controlling at most one elemental?
22:44 < nrook> dpeg: it also allows for huge crowds very easily
22:45 <+doy> yeah, the crowds part is the main issue
22:45 < N78291> it could recharge like a rod
22:45 < nrook> incidentally, the fan is pretty much as good as the stone, so it should be hit similarly (though not as hard)
22:45 < N78291> slow enough that you can only have a certain amount of elementals unless you spend recharging
22:45 <+sorear> in 4.1, the stone costs 8 MP per use
22:46 < syllogism> heh
22:46 <+doy> how long does it take for elementals to time out?
22:46 < nrook> quite a long time, many are still around after 100 turns I've found
22:46 <+doy> hmmm
22:46 <@dpeg> I think part of the problem is that you can generate elementals outside of LOS. And even outside of your connected component, which is pretty bad.
22:47 < nrook> dpeg: what do you mean?
22:47 <+sorear> also, in 4.1, the stone generates charmed elementals if you fail the hostility check
22:47 <+doy> is that different from summoning in general?
22:49 < ogaz> nrook: I've seen heteroy tunnel all over zot:5 dropping elementals everywhere without any real danger, killing monsters that he never saw
22:50 <+doy> i've seen someone clear most of tomb:2 by summoning air elementals onto tele traps
22:50 < nrook> ogaz: that's not good!
22:50 <+doy> that was a while ago though
22:50 < nrook> doy: that one, however, seems like it would apply to must summons
22:50 < syllogism> monster AI is still way too passive when the player isn't in LOS
22:50 <+by> it's become a lot better
22:51 <+doy> yeah, it's been improved a bunch since the tomb thing
22:51 -!- Ero_ [n=ero@149.152.23.34] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:51 < ogaz> fan needs a nerf as well, by the way; it's not as strong as the stone, but the same principle applies
22:51 < syllogism> greensnark had some weak zombie he didn't even know about solo Roxanne
22:51 <+sorear> it was a brown snake
22:51 <+sorear> (he said)
22:52 <+by> could just make the stone/fan/... use MP; 4MP like the spell should be fine
22:53 < N78291> has the ball of energy been weakened?
22:53 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:53 < syllogism> not that I know of, seems unlikel
22:53 < syllogism> y
22:53 <+sorear> ball of energy is fine
22:53 <+sorear> it's powerful, but very dangerous
22:53 <+doy> maybe just make the stone/fan/lamp turn into an elemental
22:54 <+doy> given the appropriate catalyst
22:54 <+doy> and revert when killed
22:54 <+by> that seems to over-nerf it
22:54 <+doy> giving it an mp cost makes it basically an exact replica of the spell
22:54 <+doy> which is kinda meh
22:54 < syllogism> that would be annoying
22:55 <@dpeg> I don't think any source of allies should be able to produce them someplace where you cannot see them.
22:55 < ogaz> could make it like manuals
22:55 <@dpeg> of course, there will be a general misc items overhaul
22:55 < syllogism> dpeg: well not much difference between that and just telling a monster to attack and running away
22:55 < syllogism> or teleporting it
22:55 <+doy> yeah, the real problem is that these items are inherently boring, considering there's a spell that does the same thing
22:55 <@dpeg> I had hoped we can wait until then but if CAO is full of stone abusers, we have to react
22:56 <@dpeg> could disable them
22:56 <+by> the problem is not outside-LOS summoning, but the ability to spam them
22:56 <@dpeg> by: ok
22:56 < ogaz> dpeg: I don't think many people abuse it
22:56 <@dpeg> although I have seen hetery spawn them in Elf:7 right next to the large chamber and the elementals were created inside
22:57 <+sorear> the stone of elementals is buggy for placement
22:57 <+sorear> I'm not entirely sure what's going on
22:57 < ogaz> yeah, heteroy is the only one I've seen abuse it on a regular basis
22:58 <+doy> really, i wouldn't mind just removing all misc items other than the lantern, crystal balls, and decks, until we can come up with some better ideas
22:58 <+doy> all the rest are just really boring
22:58 < Ero_> 16:55 <@dpeg> I don't think any source of allies should be able to produce them someplace where you cannot see them.
22:58 <@dpeg> doy: someone came up with better ideas
22:58 < N78291> the disc of storms is neat
22:58 < ais523> steal some interesting ones from other roguelikes
22:58 < Ero_> can we make summons not appear inside walls/you, please
22:58 <@dpeg> Ero_: not good?
22:58 <+doy> dpeg: s/come up with/implement/ then
22:58 < syllogism> I like the disc of storms even if it's not very useful
22:59 <+doy> N78291: oh, forgot about that one
22:59 < syllogism> I've actually used it successfully
22:59 <+doy> it's not that useful though, yeah
22:59 <@dpeg> doy: well, it's a matter of first discussing them
22:59 <+doy> disc of storms should probably stay, with some tweaks
22:59 <@dpeg> but I stand by the idea (Eino's?) that most misc items should come with two uses
22:59 < nrook> hey, the efreet lamp is cool, too
22:59 <+doy> nrook: meh
22:59 < Ero_> one idea: have elementals of different powers
23:00 < Ero_> earth elementals that aren't big enough to justify digging a wall
23:00 <+doy> the only thing i've ever seen the efreet lamp used for is as a flaming sword generator
23:00 < ais523> what about something that summoned hostile monsters?
23:00 < syllogism> the efreet is a good ally
23:00 < ais523> I'm sure creative players would find a use for it eventuallyt
23:00 < ais523> *eventually
23:01 < Ero_> ais523: summon neutral monsters would be interesting
23:01 <@dpeg> doy: the idea of the bottle is cool, imo. Implementation, not so much.
23:01 < ogaz> ais523: geryon's horn summons hostile beasts if you blow outside of the Vestibule
23:01 < ais523> ah, already done, then
23:01 < ais523> I was thinking of, say, a horn of snail summoning
23:01 < ogaz> dpeg: what about the box of beasts?
23:01 < ais523> so you could block the corridors with angry snails
23:01 <@dpeg> is the misc items FR on the wiki yet?
23:01 <@dpeg> ogaz: I am not happy with that
23:02 <@dpeg> I will move the FR over, so everyone can easily edit the page, okay?
23:02 < Ero_> i wonder if there simply shouldn't be any infinite-use misc items
23:03 <+doy> Ero_: infinite use is okay, if they have a cost/drawback
23:03 <+doy> i think crystal balls are mostly okay
23:03 < Ero_> oops, planetarium time
23:03 < Ero_> back later
23:08 < TGW> I think needle pluses should increase proc rate
23:09 <+doy> that seems reasonable
23:09 < ais523> make the Screwdriver of Itsblah
23:10 < ais523> which simply introduces one dangling pointer somewhere relevant
23:10 <+doy> heh
23:10 -!- Ero_ [n=ero@149.152.23.34] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
23:10 < TGW> doy: needle pluses and proc rate?
23:11 <+doy> TGW: yeah
23:11 < TGW> <3
23:11 <+doy> although i haven't thought incredibly hard about it
23:11 <+doy> (:
23:11 <+doy> but more uses for ew scrolls is good, in general
23:13 <@dpeg> doy: agreed
23:14 <+doy> and increasing proc rate is a better idea than increasing power
23:16 < nrook> scroll of detect creatures: good idea, or bad idea?
23:21 <@dpeg> nrook: it's a good one, but not as urgent as I thought
23:24 < purge> disc of storms is pretty useless in its current form -- its way too unpredictable. You don't know if you'll even hit anything or if you'll get destroyed yourself
23:24 < purge> (was reading backlog)
23:24 < purge> certainly not an item you would use except for "fun"
23:25 < purge> perhaps it could be a one-time evokable that can't hit the player
23:28 <@dpeg> purge: there is no reason to assume the item cannot be balanced with multiple use
23:29 <@dpeg> !tell Napkin could you attach the dpeg save to item 348? Thanks!
23:29 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let Napkin know.
23:30 < Ashenzari> broken cross layout (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=348) by dpeg
23:33 <@dpeg> sorear: okay to close the Code Overhaul FR?
23:39 <+sorear> yes
23:46 <@dpeg> ok, will do after I moved the miscies FR