00:00 <+sorear> cbus: intended, yes
00:00 <+greensnark> Also, generally useful vault testing tools are &~, &{ and &G
00:00 <+greensnark> And &L to place specific vaults
00:00 <+sorear> cbus: please don't tell us that you can use them at low skill; we are very well aware of what we haven't implemented
00:00 <+greensnark> I don't know if these are documented somewhere
00:01 < Mu_> seems ok in wizmode. 
00:02 <+greensnark> I don't know how likely wandering monsters are to open doors
00:02 < Mu_> maybe i'm making patterns up that aren't there
00:03 <+doy> did monsters maybe become better at seeing/opening secret doors lately?
00:03 < Mu_> i saw someone to temple crypt end with all the doors open the other day, and i didn't even know that gnollfort ~had~ secret doors until i saw them already open just now heh.
00:03 <+greensnark> Maybe vaults should be able to request that monsters not touch specific secret doors
00:03 <+greensnark> Or all secret doors in the vault
00:04  * sorear has no idea what to do with FR#2925877
00:05 <+doy> we need a "ridiculous" resolution option, i think
00:06 <+doy> "i don't really understand programming, but i think you should rewrite your whole codebase"
00:07 < eith> heh
00:07 <+greensnark> "Thanks, we're working on it"
00:08 <+greensnark> Anyway, the reporter seems well-meaning enough :)
00:09 <+doy> well-meaning, just seriously lacking in actual programming experience
00:09 <+doy> (:
00:09 <+greensnark> Yeah, but compared to some of the morons who've filed bugs in the past, this is pretty tame :)
00:10 <+greensnark> I remember someone filing a bug about slow tiles and asking why the tiles build was "unnecessarily fucked up" or similar :P
00:14 < elly> what's FR#2925877?
00:14 < eith> re-write the whole code to made it easier for new people to get involved
00:15 < eith> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2925877&group_id=143991&atid=757516
00:18 <+sorear> Resolution: Absurd
00:18 <+sorear> Yes.
00:19 < syllogism-> that's hilarious
00:49 <+due> actually
00:49 <+due> I think I fucked up aptitudes last night
00:49 <+due> I didn't edit the skills files when I removed SK_DARTS
00:51 <+sorear> greensnark fixed it, anyway
00:51 <+due> hooray
00:51 <+due> On that note, off to be sick
00:51 <+due> ciao
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01:29 <+due> An AceTetra in our crawl-dev? Run for your life!
01:29 < AceTetra> dooooom
01:30 <+sorear> well, it sure beats a cat-eater
01:31 <+due> True, but cats are delicious.
01:31 <+due> Also, I feel somewhat more sane today, but I don't think I'll do any coding. Apparently coding while ill/insane just makes you grouchy and causes more issues in the long-run.
01:31  * sorear thinks about saves, metadata, and the concept of storing multiple games on one file
01:31 <+due> I like that idea.
01:32 <+due> Especially considering we already ship sqlite.
01:32 <+due> Also, for fun, I am going to implement Grinder... this weekend!
01:32 <+due> !killsby mara
01:32 < Henzell> No games for * (ckiller=mara).
01:32 <+due> !killsby -i mara
01:32 < Henzell> No games for * (ikiller=mara).
01:32 <+due> :|
01:32 <+due> I think he maybe needs to get moved back down the dungeon.
01:33 <+due> ...up.
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01:33 < TGW> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2925736&group_id=143991&atid=757516
01:33 < TGW> you can solve that with lua, can't you?
01:33 < AceTetra> one file per save has the advantage of modified dates, and not having to mess around with writing a whole file each time
01:33 < TGW> 'cause there's an option for that
01:33 <+due> This is done with ghouls, I believe.
01:34 <+due> We need to close down the SF tracker.
01:34 < TGW> yeah definitely
01:34 <+due> Because I don't even think to check it any more.
01:35 < purge> due: i added a "Testing Feedback" section to the ranged combat wiki and put my comment
01:35 <+sorear> AceTetra: I'm wondering about what *dis*advantages it has.
01:35 < purge> but i think maybe a new page would be better for people to find it?
01:36 <+due> purge: That would be nice, please.
01:36 <+sorear> AceTetra: To my knowledge all roguelikes use 1+ file per save; I'm pondering if it would buy us anything to change
01:36 < purge> i can't create new pages unfortunately
01:36 < AceTetra> sorear: it would make rsync upload the whole thing every time
01:36 <+due> Oh, I can't at the minute. Poke Eronarn.
01:36 <+sorear> rsync?
01:36 <+sorear> er
01:36 < AceTetra> not that i'm advocating the use of rsync
01:36 <+sorear> why are you rsyncing saves?
01:36 <+due> Why would it upload the whole thing?
01:36 <+due> Surely rsync is sane enough to only transfer the changes.
01:36 < AceTetra> because iirc rsync is dumb
01:36 <+sorear> Doesn't rsync know about only sending modified sectors
01:37 <+due> Have you read the rsync man page?
01:37 <+due> sorear: Yes
01:37 <+due> You might need to use --partial.
01:37 < AceTetra> not sure really, i may have read an old discussion
01:37 <+due> rsync is *excellent* for resuming failed transfers/getting updated files.
01:37 < AceTetra> anyway, when a game ends, you'd have to rewrite the whole file to get rid of the empty space, right?
01:38 < AceTetra> i do like the idea of a grand unified playground file, but a directory can do all that too
01:39 <+due> I don't think it's every save in one file
01:39 <+due> But instead of having all of the .blah files per-game, have them combined.
01:40 < AceTetra> oh, i don't see any problem with that idea, since they're all written at once anyway aren't they?
01:40 <+due> Doing that would be counter-productive, because that would make getting saves for a single user out of multiple annoying and difficult.
01:42 < AceTetra> by "that" you mean "storing multiple games on one file" right?
01:42 <+due> Yes.
01:42 < AceTetra> although, that could also mean allowing multiple saves for one username, which i like
01:43 < AceTetra> like if i get tired of my TrBe and want to take a mummy scumming break
01:44 <+sorear> there wouldn't be any "getting rid of the empty space" pass
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01:49 < AceTetra> ok, are you talking about one file containg everyone's saves, a file per user with multiple saves, or just putting all the .sav .msg etc stuff in one file for each user?
01:49 <+due> The latter. But it's more complicated then that.
01:50 <+due> It'll also store text values for enums instead of numerical values, which means that reordering an enum won't always break saves. Among other things, at least that's how I understood it.
01:51 < AceTetra> or it will break them in a way that could be hard to track down, right?
01:51 < AceTetra> like every location becoming sanctuary or something
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02:02 < Twinge> ...lame.  slime creatures can join together, get to critically injured, break apart and heal up, be injured because they were all on fire, and then combine again and heal up completely again ;(
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02:10 < Eronarn> ew, netsplits.
02:10 < Eronarn> Holy crap how were there that few lines since I left for class
02:13 < Eronarn> 19:37 <+due> We need to close down the SF tracker. <-- fwiw the wiki templates are up now. I think the only thing that we agreed we definitely *needed* before getting rid of sf was documentation on where to file things
02:13 < Eronarn> Nobody's written good mantis/wiki documentation yet that I saw
02:13 < Eronarn> purge: giving you create permission in a moment.
02:15 < Eronarn> also holy shit, wow. That SF item.
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02:17 < Eronarn> Anyone else want page creation while I'm at it?
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02:18 <+due> whoa
02:18 < purge> due: when i was in a volcano and moved onto an exit portal it said, "there is a rocky passage here."
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02:25 <+due> purge: Yes, that's the text for the exit message. It needs to be fixed though, thanks for the reminder.
02:25 <+due> Can you file a bug suggesting change in wording? I know at least one person thought it was a portal to a different part of teh volcano.
02:27 <+sorear> Twinge: IIUC slime creatures are supposed to conserve total HP when splitting and merging.  Is that broken?
02:29 <+due> purge: You can assign it to me, too, if you get given that option :)
02:33 < purge> ok
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02:36 < purge> just died to roxanne in my local game :| i rushed her with agility + might not knowing she had crystal spear
02:38 < Ashenzari> Volcano exit portal description (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=334) by purge
02:38 < Twinge> purge: I encountered her for the first time an hour ago.  I tried to use LRD on her twice, she was still at lightly and blinked me closer to her, so I just ran like hell.
02:43 < purge> maybe dungeon crawl should form a local game website that you can set the game to report to like hengband had/has for scores/deaths
02:43 < TGW> so we should have something online that collects statistics about games as they end?
02:43 < TGW> good idea
02:46 < purge> TGW: not sure if your being a smart-ass or not, but we are talking about for LOCAL games
02:46 < eith> =p
02:47 < AceTetra> how do you keep people from reporting whatever nonsense they want?
02:49 < eith> you dont really, theres some epic nonsense up on sourceforge
02:49 < eith> oh for that thingie =p
02:49 < eith> checksums of course
02:49 <+due> You don't.
02:49 < eith> or something
02:49 < AceTetra> i'm saying what due is probably saying: it's impossible to have meaningful statistics reported that way
02:51 < syllogism-> well local game statistics would be interesting
02:51 <+due> It doesn't matter, though
02:51 <+due> It would still be interesting.
02:51 <+due> You just have to treat them as untrusted.
02:53 < syllogism-> most of the stats would be meaningful, the only problem being the user having to actively report them
02:53 < Eronarn> syllogism-: maybe couple it with an autoupdate feature
02:55 < Eronarn> due: Random thought on the needles: they could use the higher levels of monster rPois.
02:55 < syllogism-> @?? ancient lich
02:55 < Gretell> ancient lich (L) | Speed: 12 | HD: 27 | Health: 54-162 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Damage: 20(drain) | Flags: undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(504), fire, cold++, elec++, poison | XP: 10944 | Sp: b.cold, paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot, teleport self / b.draining, animate dead, summon undead, throw frost, crystal spear / b.fire, confuse, haste, b.draining, grea
02:56 <+due> Eronarn: Needles need fixing.
02:56 <+due> Eronarn: Going to add the mephitic cloud HD check, which can be overcome by having better blowgun skill/enchantment.
02:56 <+due> So, shooting low-HD monsters with no skill, you still have a chance of success.
02:56 <+due> Shooting high-HD monsters with no skill, you have a really, really low chance of success.
02:56 < syllogism-> curare should get the same check
02:57 < Eronarn> due: I'm talking primarily about the slowing/etc. ones; monster PR goes from + to +++. (Not currently appropriately assigned, but it's a monster stat, what's new?)
02:57 < Eronarn> Like, make monsters more or less immune to poison, but just more resistant to curare/confusion/etc. with rPois++
02:57 <+due> syllogism-: Yeah. I'm not sure I want to touch curare at the minute, though.
02:58 <+due> Eronarn: Yeah.
02:58 <+due> They're in and working, though, and I always said numbers would need to be tweaked.
02:58 < purge> hengband asks you when you die, "do you want to report this game?"
02:58 <+due> Do we have any other solid feedback on them?
02:58 < Eronarn> It'd be a good way to let, say, spiny frogs be slowable but not Cerebovs
02:58 < Eronarn> due: I've used them in my game
02:58 < Eronarn> They're pretty brutal
02:58 < syllogism-> due: "completely overpowered"
02:58 <+due> :)
02:58 <+due> syllogism-: Which ones in specific, or all of them?
02:58 < syllogism-> you can paralyse cerebov and stab him to death
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02:59 <+due> Oh, nice.
02:59 <+due> Yeah, that definitely needs fixing.
02:59 < syllogism-> at 0 skill
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02:59 < Eronarn> due: See, in that case it's not even a HD thing
02:59 < Eronarn> @??cerebov
02:59 < Gretell> Cerebov (&) | Speed: 10 | HD: 21 | Health: 650 | AC/EV: 30/8 | Damage: 60 | Flags: demonic, see invisible | Res: magic(168), hellfire+++, poison | XP: 15000 | Sp: fire storm, iron shot, haste, greater demon.
02:59 < purge> since the other needle brands are not poison, perhaps they should be considered magic and require a MR check?
02:59 <+due> Eronarn: Yeah, but it's still workable.
02:59 <+due> purge: I'm going to use a HD check instead, which is something similar.
03:00 <+due> @??saint roka
03:00 < Gretell> Saint Roka (o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 200 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 35 | Flags: evil | Res: magic(72) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 8385 | Sp: smiting.
03:00 <+due> Eronarn: Saint ROka is almost impossible to meph cloud, and he's HD 18.
03:00 < purge> due: but how will the player know if it works or not when they are shooting? will it give a message?
03:00 <+due> Eronarn: I think a HD check would be plenty.
03:00 <+due> purge: Of course. "The monster shrugs off the poison/sleep/etc."
03:00 < purge> ah ok
03:00 < Eronarn> Hm... here's how I'd do it. rPois+ = immune to poison damage. rPois++ = immune to 'physical' poisons (rage, slow, etc.). rPois+++ = immune to any hypothetical magical poisons simply because you don't even have a circulatory system
03:00 <+due> There's also going to be a chance of it failing completely to work with low skill/enchantment.
03:00 < Eronarn> (Like, the proposed antimagic poison)
03:01 < purge> due: even so, my spriggan assassin with sleep needles ruled lair with no fear, sleeped death yaks, komodo dragons, hydras, w/e
03:01 < Eronarn> Deends how many brands actually make it in though
03:01 < purge> they should mulch on use
03:01 < Eronarn> Clearly not necessary if there's only a handful
03:01 <+due> Yeah, the mulching needs to be fixed.
03:01 <+due> But that's fine, if you have a good blowgun and a high throwing skill.
03:11  * due gone.
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03:12 < TGW> do needles of wrath neutralise things yet?
03:13 <+sorear> Wait, people actually *die* to Roxanne?
03:13 < ogaz> yes
03:14 < ogaz> !killsby roxanne
03:14 < Henzell> 22 games for * (ckiller=roxanne): 1x henryci, 1x Sildraith, 1x ajhager, 1x Karagy, 1x Frosteey, 1x vorless, 1x DrPraetor, 1x Qwixel, 1x Temoid, 1x wwf, 1x Warak, 1x Swanson, 1x Tinydancer, 1x phenglei, 1x Stormfox, 1x Danei, 1x foobar, 1x brennon, 1x Itsarka, 1x spaige, 1x Moose, 1x Eronarn
03:14 < TGW> only once though
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03:14 < TGW> !lg * killer=roxanne s=char
03:14 < Henzell> 22 games for * (killer=roxanne): 6xMDFi, 2xMiFi, 1xMfTm, 1xSpMo, 1xSEPr, 1xCePa, 1xSEEE, 1xDSAr, 1xDDNe, 1xHOPr, 1xDEFE, 1xOgEE, 1xSEWz, 1xMDHe, 1xMiBe, 1xSpEn
03:14 < purge> yeah shes a "once you know her capabilities you don't die"
03:14 < Twinge> I didn't, but she was pretty threatening.  Not as threatening as Tesla, that guy did 76 damage in a single shot
03:14 < TGW> tesla is just absurd
03:14 < TGW> I love him
03:15 < TGW> nikola*
03:15 < Twinge> How much exp is he worth, hmm
03:15 < Twinge> @??Nikola
03:15 < Gretell> Nikola (@) | Speed: 9 | HD: 18 | Health: 190 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Damage: 20 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(120) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 3665 | Sp: shock, chain lightning, blink, b.lightning.
03:15 < Twinge> Okay, 3.5k is probably fair.  But also holy crap 190hp what.
03:15 < Twinge> @??Roxanne
03:15 < Gretell> Roxanne (8) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 180 | AC/EV: 20/0 | Flags: non-living, spellcaster | Res: magic(immune), fire++, cold++, elec++, poison++ | XP: 2672 | Sp: crystal spear, iron shot, blink other close, b.magma, mystic blast, stone arrow.
03:15 < TGW> huh, didn't know he's slow
03:16 < TGW> neutral fish ely altar is beautiful <3
03:16 < Twinge> 120 MR... I dunno that I can pass that to confuse 'em.
03:17 < TGW> I wonder what would happen if newts were speed 11
03:17 < AceTetra> they'd get more kills?
03:17 < AceTetra> almost as many as the mighty gecko
03:18 < AceTetra> @? giant gecko
03:18 < Gretell> giant gecko (l) | Speed: 12 | HD: 1 | Health: 3-8 | AC/EV: 1/14 | Damage: 5 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(4) | XP: 1.
03:18 < TGW> not really
03:18 < Twinge> @??giant newt
03:18 < Gretell> giant newt (l) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 1-3 | AC/EV: 0/15 | Damage: 3 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(4) | XP: 1.
03:18 < AceTetra> !lg * killer=~gecko s=dam
03:18 < TGW> (also I think geckos should attack at normal speed because right now they get really ridiculous)
03:18 < Henzell> 8669 games for * (killer=~gecko): 3098x 0, 1590x 4, 1501x 3, 1016x 2, 984x 5, 480x 1
03:19 < AceTetra> !lg * killer=~gecko cv=0.5 s=dam
03:19 < Henzell> 2690 games for * (killer=~gecko cv=0.5): 760x 4, 733x 3, 528x 2, 436x 5, 233x 1
03:19 < Twinge> !lg * killer=~cockroach cv=0.5 s=dam
03:19 < Henzell> 1276 games for * (killer=~cockroach cv=0.5): 716x 2, 560x 1
03:19 < TGW> @??giant cockroach
03:19 < Gretell> giant cockroach (s) | Speed: 12 | HD: 1 | Health: 3-7 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 2 | Res: magic(1) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1.
03:20 < Twinge> Low damage, Higher AC
03:20 < Twinge> cockroach -> 2exp, gecko ->3exp
03:22 < AceTetra> what? don't those both say 1 exp?
03:24 < Twinge> Yes.  And that is a problem :)  
03:25 < Eronarn> TGW: nearly all monsters that attack fast should attack at normal speed sooo
03:25 < TGW> eronarn: you have a point there
03:25 < AceTetra> does it really matter how much exp you get on d:1? the randomness and the kobold river vault both emphasize that d:1 doesn't matter much
03:25 < Eronarn> we should really change monster secondary attack handling though
03:25 < TGW> but it matters more on d:1 where 5x2 is holy shit double ouch
03:26 < Eronarn> like make them non-guaranteed
03:26 < Eronarn> so you can have centaurs that attack every turn but average out to 1.2 hits per turn
03:26 < Eronarn> attempted hits, anyways
03:26 <+sorear> Eronarn: centaurs don't have secondart attacks
03:27 < TGW> @??war dog
03:27 < Gretell> war dog (h) | Speed: 17 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 4/15 | Damage: 12 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: magic(16) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 99.
03:27 < Eronarn> sorear: centaur attack speed => 10, secondary hoof attack using that new handling
03:27 < Eronarn> is what i mean
03:27 < AceTetra> centaurs are funny because they all want to be motaro and mortal kombat you, when they'd do better with bows
03:27 < TGW> you could be tricky with war dogs and shit
03:27 <+sorear> Eronarn: I'd rather see centaurs being attack speed 10 with their *current* attack
03:27 < Eronarn> @??centaur
03:27 < Gretell> centaur (c) | Speed: 15 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 3/7 | Damage: 10 | Res: magic(16) | XP: 111.
03:27 < TGW> 12,9 at attack speed 10
03:28 < TGW> sorear: at range maybe
03:28 < TGW> dunno
03:28 < Eronarn> giving them a hoof attack in close combat is fine
03:28 < Eronarn> players have one
03:28 < TGW> yeah that's what I'm thinking
03:28 < TGW> make them attack normal speed but with a weak hoof aux
03:28 < Eronarn> TGW: i'd actually make the hoof attack stronger than their base attack fwiw
03:29 < Eronarn> like 5 base damage, 10 hoof on 20% of attacks
03:29 < Eronarn> @??orc
03:29 < Gretell> orc (o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Res: magic(4) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2.
03:29 < Eronarn> a centaur punching you doesn't really need to be strong at all
03:29 < Eronarn> especially since they pick up weapons
03:29 < TGW> sure, but they're already not strong at all
03:30 < AceTetra> also let them trip you with their tail! maybe that's a bad_idea
03:30 < Eronarn> TGW: well presumably they'd drop in XP
03:30 < TGW> I'm pretty sure horse tails don't drag
03:31 < AceTetra> TGW: it's a mortal kombat thing; Motaro would always trip you with his tail
03:31 < TGW> heh
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04:06 <+sorear> Lemuel> I like sorear's proposal.
04:06 <+sorear> IT WAS A JOKE
04:07 < Eronarn> which proposal
04:09 < TGW> eronarn: "let's encourage dropping potions even more"
04:09 <+sorear> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=315#c822
04:10 < Eronarn> hahahaha
04:10 < TGW> but then, I'm pretty sure lemuel is a massive sadist
04:10 < Eronarn> i thought mine was bad
04:10 < TGW> maybe mummies should give you a mutation that makes you unable to drink potions
04:11 < elly> where are the crawl FRs, anyway?
04:11 < Eronarn> elly: right where sorear just linked
04:12 < elly> people mentioned 2925877 before, which seems like a large FR number :P
04:12 < Eronarn> TGW: have you ever seen the movie Airplane
04:12 < TGW> eronarn yes
04:12 <+sorear> We *also* have FRs on sourceforge.net
04:12 < TGW> give you a drinking problem?
04:12 <+sorear> Those have 7-digit IDs
04:12 < Eronarn> yes
04:12 < TGW> awesome
04:12 <+sorear> We're trying to move away from sourceforge, though
04:12 < Eronarn> elly: I would hesitate to call the things on sourceforge 'FRs'
04:12 <+sorear> It's a wreck
04:12 < Eronarn> more like 'lols'
04:13 < elly> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2925877&group_id=143991&atid=757516 *wow*, that's an ambitious fR
04:13 < elly> I see that nobody has bothered to comment on it
04:13 < Eronarn> haha i was just looking for that one to link it
04:14 < Eronarn> gonna comment on it now actually
04:14 < elly> it's marked as priority 5, too
04:14 <+sorear> elly: I would, but I can't find the "Resolve FR as Ridiculous" button
04:14 < elly> better get right on that
04:14 <+sorear> 5 means unprioritized
04:14 < elly> oh
04:14 < elly> mark it highest priority!
04:14 < Eronarn> commented
04:15 < elly> you are a bad man
04:15 < elly> the person proposing that clearly has no idea, so they probably can't detect the involved sarcasm
04:15 < Eronarn> exactly
04:15 < Eronarn> nobody was hurt
04:15 < elly> in defense of the FR poster
04:16 < elly> I have had that idea before as a ground-up design for a roguelike
04:16 < elly> however, I have never thought of _retrofitting_ it onto an existing game
04:16 < Eronarn> i kind of want to look into doing a simple roguelike
04:16 < Eronarn> originally i was going to do an RTS this summer
04:16 < Eronarn> but a roguelike might be more fun
04:16 < TGW> do an rts roguelike
04:17 < TGW> I'm not even kitting
04:17 < elly> sorear: 'WONTFIX'?
04:17 < elly> or 'INVALID', if you like
04:17 < elly> "rewriting game from scratch does not constitute 'feature'"
04:18 < Eronarn> elly: no, it's just the wrong project. it'd be fine if he did a FR in Reality
04:19 < elly> heh :P
04:19 < Eronarn> bug report: walking diagonally is too slow
04:19 < Eronarn> TGW: i wouldn't want to do any kind of real time roguelike that would be awful
04:19 < TGW> eronarn: ok yeah
04:20 < TGW> the R stands for roguelike
04:20 < Eronarn> i want to do it in gurps
04:20 < Eronarn> with a hexgrid
04:20 < Eronarn> and the full GURPS tactical combat rules
04:21 < Eronarn> it would be like DF, if you could see all the math and make targeted attacks
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04:55 < purge> eronarn: what language?
04:57 < Eronarn> purge: no preference, i'd have to learn something either way
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05:00 < AceTetra> nice fr, but not really necessary
05:00 < AceTetra> i mean, how much less skill would it take to improve crawl under that scheme than it takes now? not much i think
05:01 < AceTetra> what's the state of tiles over telnet for crawl?
05:02 < Eronarn> coders in groups can make up for individual weaknesses
05:02 < Eronarn> this is significantly less so for good design
05:02 < Eronarn> and tiles over telnet is going nowhere fast unless someone new steps up to do it, last i heard
05:03 < AceTetra> i can get a lot done just by complaining without knowing how to code at all, so i don't see how restructuring crawl would get more contributions
05:03 < AceTetra> i'm wondering how tiles over telnet would work any better than interhack does
05:04 < Eronarn> there's no reason that tiles over telnet couldn't work perfectly fine it'd just take work
05:04 < AceTetra> well, there's fine, and then there's elegant and fast
05:05 < AceTetra> i think that fr wants elegance where it'
05:05 < AceTetra> s not really necessary
05:05 < Eronarn> i'd rather have working now elegant later than not working now elegant later
05:05 < AceTetra> exactly. i would rather work on a better time system first
05:06 < Eronarn> time system?
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05:07 < AceTetra> right now, the player moves in steps, and monsters move in, uh, inverse steps? i'm still confused
05:07 < Eronarn> oh
05:07 < AceTetra> if it were my decision, i'd have everyone's time expressed in steps
05:07 < Eronarn> yeah it's a bit messy
05:07 < Eronarn> for example: recently, some things were made to run on universal time
05:07 < Eronarn> rather than relative time
05:08 < Eronarn> thus now being slowed makes your teleports seem to kick in faster
05:08 < Eronarn> now consider the logical consequences of these things before that change was made
05:08 < AceTetra> i would have everything running on universal time: you, them, teleports, status effects, everything
05:08 < AceTetra> i exploit weapon swap teleport like a madman
05:09 < Eronarn> that's how i would do a roguelike, yes
05:09 < Eronarn> but converting takes effort, of course
05:09 < AceTetra> i think nethack does have a unified clock, but the player's moves involve die rolls if hasted
05:10 < AceTetra> converting to a unified clock would take less effort than separating interface and rules like in that fr
05:10 < AceTetra> of course i'd do both if i made a roguelike
05:10 <+sorear> I'd like to move Crawl to a unified clock, but there's a nagging question
05:11 <+sorear> what do we do when the clock rolls overt
05:11 <+sorear> right now, amounts of time get traded around; the absolute amount of time is not used anywhere
05:11 < AceTetra> every tick, deplete everyone's timeout
05:11 < Eronarn> sorear: ever played a racing game with a ghost mode?
05:11 < AceTetra> if someone's timeout is already 0, they get a move
05:11 < Eronarn> it's like that
05:11 <+sorear> I suppose I could do ouch(INSTANT_DEATH, KILLED_BY_TYPE_SIZES)
05:11 <+sorear> after a million billion turns
05:11 <+sorear> Eronarn: no, how would it work
05:12 <+sorear> AceTetra: I hate ticks
05:12 <+sorear> there will be no ticks large enough to be detectable
05:12 < AceTetra> huh? what's a tick and why do you hate it?
05:12 <+sorear> the timer will count in microaut
05:12 < Eronarn> sorear: in some racing games your best time is a 'ghost' car that you can't collide with but you can race it to try and beat it
05:12 <+sorear> because quantitisation artefacts </3
05:12 < Eronarn> sorear: plancks
05:12 < elly> I like the angband-ish one
05:13 < AceTetra> i'm thinking of a tick as something on the order of 1/10 of a human's move delay
05:13 <+sorear> yes
05:13 < elly> (everyone has energy)
05:13 <+sorear> that's way too big
05:13 < AceTetra> why's that too big?
05:13 < Eronarn> @??executioner
05:13 < Gretell> Executioner (1) | Speed: 20 | HD: 12 | Health: 36-96 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 30, 10, 10 | Flags: demonic, evil, see invisible | Res: magic(144), fire, cold, elec++, poison | XP: 2369 | Sp: pain, haste.
05:13 < Eronarn> speed 40 hasted
05:13 <+sorear> AceTetra: quantitization noise
05:14 <+sorear> AceTetra: if you're doing fast actions, 2 and 3 ticks is a big jump
05:14 < AceTetra> i really don't see how the quantization noise is a problem compared to how it is now
05:14 < Eronarn> well it'd be better but why redesign it just to make it better
05:14 < AceTetra> can't hardly predict at all the way it is now
05:14 < Eronarn> adn not 'right'
05:15 < Eronarn> funnily enough a gurps roguelike would probably end up using variable tick length
05:15 < AceTetra> actually i don't see how it's a problem at all. why not have ring swaps take 2 ticks exactly?
05:15 < Eronarn> normally everyone goes once per second
05:16 < Eronarn> but there's an ability to go twice as fast, three times as fast, etc.
05:16 < Eronarn> but that just ends up sequential so you can just never do those subticks unless a creature with that ability exists
05:16 < Eronarn> since there is no way to get partial actions
05:18 <+sorear> I would use microauts and a priority queue
05:19 < AceTetra> i'm still not seeing the benefit to ticks smaller than .1 human turns
05:21 < Eronarn> gurps has a priority queue too
05:22 < Eronarn> though that one is less a queue and more a check
05:22 < Eronarn> which can result simultaneous action in edge cases
05:22 < Eronarn> not sure i've seen any roguelike that does actually simultaneous action instead of just you move, monsters move in response
05:23 < AceTetra> simultaneous action adds extra rules and it's just silly
05:23 < AceTetra> rather have the player always go first on a conflicting tick
05:23 < Eronarn> AceTetra: no, i mean simultaneous ACTION
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05:23  * sorear points to the DoomRL dodging rules
05:23 < AceTetra> monsters seem to have a turn order in crawl already anyway
05:23 < Eronarn> for example: cross-counter
05:24 < AceTetra> Eronarn: huh? isn't that what i said?
05:24 < Twinge> http://tsuzukusekai.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/cross-counter.jpg
05:24 < Eronarn> AceTetra: you're thinking of just acting simultaneously, i mean actions that actually are carried out simultaneously so that the effects of both are figured out as per the starting conditions
05:25 < Eronarn> i.e., something can die and still stab you
05:25 < AceTetra> the situation in that screencap would add unnecessary extra rules to a roguelike
05:25 < Eronarn> Twinge: <3 LOGH
05:25 < AceTetra> better to take turns
05:25 <+sorear> AceTetra: do you know Eronarn's middle name?
05:25 < AceTetra> nope
05:25 < AceTetra> is it a joke?
05:26 < purge> oh oh i know it!
05:26  * purge raises hand
05:26 < Eronarn> sorear: GURPS has a rulebook. It's 500-odd pages, split across two hardcover books
05:26 < Eronarn> Martial Arts, the book with the expanded combat rules, is 200 or so
05:26 <+sorear> it's probably actually something boring like Robert, but we joke it's "Unnecessary Extra Rules"
05:26 < Eronarn> includes explicit rules for cross-counters!
05:27 < Eronarn> note, though, that gurps combat is DEADLY
05:27 < AceTetra> i think of roguelikes as being more like chess than that
05:27 < Eronarn> a long gurps fight might be 30 rounds (30 seconds)
05:27 < Eronarn> a hobgoblin would be a very strong enemy for a starting adventurer
05:27 < Eronarn> a dragon could kill dozens of experienced adventurers
05:28 < Eronarn> sorear: And it's MacArthur actually :P
05:28 < Twinge> Eronarn: I actually don't know the original reference, or what LOGH stands for, to be honest.  I just know it's referenced a lot, and they're always really shocked and excited about it :)  (Most recently saw it referenced in Gurren Lagaan.)
05:30 < Eronarn> Twinge: Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Epic sci fi anime series: 30-disc almost-all-classical soundtrack, hundreds of characters, dozens of important ones, 110 episodes, zero filler.
05:30 < purge> eronarn: speaking of tactical combat, would that mean it would have movement similar to final fantasy tactics/heroes of might and magic?
05:31 < Eronarn> purge: I haven't played FFT, only FFTA
05:31 < Eronarn> Is it the same in that
05:31 < purge> like where you can move more than 1 square on your turn
05:31 < purge> highlights the ground for all possible move grids on your turn
05:31 < Eronarn> purge: Depends how it was implemented, GURPS movement is complex
05:31 < AceTetra> Eronarn: gurps seconds aren't real seconds right?
05:31 < Eronarn> AceTetra: They are real seconds.
05:32 < AceTetra> i'm imagining people playing speed d&d with a hungry hungry hippos clock on the table
05:32 < Eronarn> Oh, haha :P
05:32 < Eronarn> No, you have as much time to figure out actions as needed
05:32 < AceTetra> oh gods, i would splat so hard in gurps with one move per real second
05:33 < Twinge> Eronarn: I find your claim of 110 episodes and 0 filler to be highly dubious.
05:33 < Twinge> Most *good* *26-episode* series still have 1 or 2 filler episodes.
05:33 < AceTetra> stargate sg-1 is at least 50% filler
05:34 < Eronarn> Twinge: It has two episodes that could be described as filler... a character on a long space journey sitting around watching the series equivalent of History Channel. But it's so awesome/good it doesn't count as filler.
05:34 <+due> ...
05:34 <+due> ##crawl-offtopic is that-away.
05:34 < AceTetra> i can imagine being a stargate actor: "show up, say this stuff, go home."
05:34 < Eronarn> due: :)
05:34 < AceTetra> oh heh hi due
05:34 < purge> oh shit its the fuzz!
05:34 <+due> :>
05:34  * purge jumps a fence
05:34 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o due] by ChanServ
05:34 <@due> You rang?
05:35 < AceTetra> ah gods it's an @! cheese it!
05:35 < purge> due: btw i think they wanted to have haranp as a +v, i don't know if that was ever done
05:36 <@due> I'm pretty sure someone added haran...
05:36 <@due> Maybe not
05:36 <@due> elly: Can you add haranp?
05:37  * due can't add voice, can merely go despotic.
05:37 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [-o due] by due
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05:39 < AceTetra> "/msg chanserv access ##crawl-dev list" doesn't list haranp, so yeah
05:39 <+due> Hence why I asked elly to add :D
05:39 < AceTetra> funny how it's willing to list it all for anyone
05:39 < elly> it is done
05:40 <+due> hooray
05:40 <+due> three cheers for elly!
05:41 < elly> AceTetra: yeah, I didn't turn that off
05:41 < AceTetra> oh it's a flag ok
05:41 < AceTetra> did any weapons change in trunk other than maces?
05:41 <+due> yes
05:41 <+sorear> whips
05:41 <+sorear> rods
05:41 <+due> speed is only on short blades and randarts
05:41 <+due> vorpal got nerfed
05:41 < AceTetra> i did whips already, those are maces
05:42 <+due> holy scourges
05:42 < AceTetra> yeah, added that
05:42 < AceTetra> how do i get all maces in a list in the ?/ thing?
05:46 < purge> due: how was vorpal nerfed?
05:48 <+due> purge: ask sorear, I don't remember the numbers.
05:48 <+due> The percentage damage increase is different now though.
05:49 < ogaz> I think it does half as much extra damage on average
05:50 < AceTetra> vorp scrolls must still be worth saving though
05:50 < AceTetra> with the maces buff and all
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05:53 <+sorear> vorpal is as good as an elemental brand against single resistance
05:55 < Eronarn> such a good change
05:59 < AceTetra> i might actually use elemental brands now
06:00 <+due> Freezing is *nice*.
06:00 <+due> I think it's now my favourite brand.
06:01 < AceTetra> freezing is pretty good in 0.5 too
06:04 < Ashenzari> Incorrect message on memorisation screen when no spell levels remain (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=335) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
06:08 <+due> MarvinPA: Tht's probably my fault.
06:08 <+due> MarvinPA: You weren't originally able to acces sthe screen with no levels.
06:09 < MarvinPA> ah yeah, that's right
06:09 <+due> doy: And yeah, I'm probably going to change it to "illusion of <XYZ>".
06:10 <+due> doy: or "<XYZ>'s illusion".
06:13 < Eronarn> due: Shows up as illusion if INT=>10, else doesn't. :D
06:13 <+due> Eronarn: This is for the summoned player ghosts spell.
06:14 < Ashenzari> Messages for opening/closing doors are not consistently punctuated (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=336) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
06:14 < Eronarn> due: Did you see that I want to do illusion-y stuff with one of the DS muts?
06:14 <+due> Yeah, I didn't understand it properly though.
06:14 < Eronarn> that's because i didn't add details to it yet
06:14 < Eronarn> had to stop mid-writing
06:15 <+due> Ah.
06:15 < Eronarn> thinking something like - active illusion summon, passive illusion summon, illusions can hit in combat
06:16 < Eronarn> but illusions being killed in one hit
06:16 < Eronarn> i don't like the rakshasa mechanic of them being so ridiculously tough
06:17 < Eronarn> possibly a side perk of "swap with one of your illusions instead of blinking"
06:17 < Eronarn> not sure of exactly how to make a good interface for that though
06:21 <+due> that sounds cool
06:21 <+due> but sure, their parent could have been a rakshasa
06:21 <+due> so they inherit some of the powers, but not all of them
06:22 < Eronarn> yeah, that is another thing - i am not sure i want to add it if i will be proposing rakshasa become non-demons for .7 :)
06:22 < Twinge> Okay, uh... it is asking me if I want to 'switch back from my butchering weapon', when I don't even have one, and I have nothing equipped.
06:22 < Eronarn> Twinge: blade hands?
06:22 <+sorear> autodeglove?
06:22 < Twinge> I guess it is thinking of blade hands as a butchering weapon even though it expired a long time ago
06:24 < Eronarn> yep
06:25 < Twinge> That qualifies as a bug, surely
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06:44 <+due> Apparently the "helpless foo fails to dodge" is against crawl's design policy.
06:44 <+due> I did not know this.
06:46 <+sorear> What crazy said that
06:47 <+doy> which design policy?
06:47 <+due> Lemuel, on the bug tracker.
06:47 <+due> I love the helpless messages. I don't get the hate.
06:47 <+sorear> I haven't gotten that bug update yet
06:47 < Eronarn> lemuel = unfrozen caveman 4.1 player
06:48 <+doy> due: i agree with him, actually
06:48 <+doy> that should be folded into some other message
06:49 <+doy> getting 8 messages for a single action is pretty ludicrous
06:51 <+sorear> I'm leaning towards eliminating the message for stabs
06:52 <+due> doy: message colour mute:<blah blah>
06:52 <+doy> due: no
06:52 <+sorear> that will reduce 98% of the spam while keeping it for the important cases
06:52 <+doy> due: the default options should not produce 8 messages for a single action
06:52 < Twinge> <3 Stab messages
06:52 <+due> doy: I haven't really found it particullarly spammy.
06:52 <+sorear> if you strike a monster from behind, it's obvious that the impairment helped you hit it
06:52 <+sorear> no need to say it twice
06:52 <+due> Not to the point of seeing eight messages, at least.
06:52 <+doy> due: well... look at the bug report
06:53 < Twinge> Ah - it could be said on the same line though
06:53 <+doy> Twinge: yes
06:53 <+due> Oh
06:53 <+due> I am referring to the "helpless" messages.
06:53 <+due> I really like them, because they help to emphasise that you're doing something wrong ("Helpless, you fail to dodge.", etc).
06:53 < AceTetra> crawl does a lot of stuff on two lines that could be done on one line
06:53 <+due> I agree with the vampire message stuff, though.
06:54 <+sorear> due: do you support my proposal to hide them for stabs?  Or do you think that would be too confusing?
06:54 <+doy> the vampire message stuff should definitely only be one line, but we should look at combining other things too
06:54 < Twinge> Just combine them into one line, sorear.
06:54 <+due> sorear: IF the current messages for stab are enough to get over the proper meaning, then sure.
06:54 < AceTetra> i keep thinking nh has an awful interface, but then i realize that nh has about as many messages on 2 lines as crawl has on a 7-line screenful
06:54 <+due> And I support merging some messages into one line, if it's doable.
06:54 <+doy> You slice the helpless giant gecko!
06:54 <+doy> etc
06:55 <+doy> AceTetra: well... that's not entirely true
06:55 <+doy> AceTetra: you're hitting space for --More-- constantly in nethack
06:57 < AceTetra> doy: but only 2-3x as much as i hit it in crawl
06:57 <+due> Did we fix the aim prompts?
06:57 <+doy> don't think so
06:58 < AceTetra> as i just said in ##c-ot, i just pick up all maces and armour, and deal with them at the end of the level. all i have to deal with is fights and stairs.
06:59 <+doy> seems like you'd run into inventory issues that way
06:59 <+due> Especially with the new weight caps;.
06:59 < AceTetra> i stop a few times a level to drop crap, but it's faster than stopping twice for every item
07:00 < AceTetra> at some point i # the autopickup lines i don't want
07:00 < AceTetra> like robes after i get a gda
07:01 < AceTetra> therefore, i am not very watchable
07:02 < AceTetra> o, fight, o, explore a <, maybe fight, go down, o, fight, o, fight...
07:06 < AceTetra> i just summarized my play style, i can't see anything wrong, and it is so very simple
07:06 < AceTetra> i must script this
07:07 <+sorear> well, "fight" is a tad complicated
07:08 <+sorear> "run directly at the nearest monster, or throw throwables if you have any"?
07:08 <+doy> that's a good way to get killed
07:10 <+sorear> yeah
07:10 <+sorear> doesn't work so well in Crawl
07:10 <+sorear> too many ranged opponents
07:11 <+sorear> some kind of threat map approach would probably work better - stay out of areas where you can get shot, time yourself to start attacking when inside of the ranged damage annulus reaches you
07:14 < Ashenzari> +/- and PgUp/PgDn (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=337) by Twinge
07:26 <+sorear> let's talk about savefile metadata
07:26 <+sorear> I'm thinking about possibly putting some information *outside* the tagged compressed files
07:27 <+sorear> so you could do echo "select value from data where key = 'major_version'" | sqlite3 somebodys-save-file
07:27 <+due> What does Henzell/et al need to read the save files for where is information?
07:27 <+sorear> or something like that
07:27 < AceTetra> ok wait i thought you wanted that stuff all in one file earlier
07:27 <+doy> due: whereis is separate
07:27 <+due> doy: Ah.
07:27 <+due> AceTetra: Inside the database, but not compressed.
07:27 <+doy> whereis is with morgues and dumplogs i believe
07:27 <+sorear> Also, not in the proprietary Crawl format
07:28 <+sorear> but as a standard SQL integer
07:28 <+sorear> or string, as the case may be
07:28 <+due> I think that would be good.
07:28 < AceTetra> right, but isn't that still duplicating operations that the filesystem should do?
07:28 <+sorear> AceTetra: I... don't follow.
07:29 < AceTetra> i mean if you keep it all in one file, you're either wasting space on the empty spot where a previous save went, or you're writing the entire playground a lot
07:29 < AceTetra> or that third idea i said
07:30 <+sorear> AceTetra: When you die, your save is deleted
07:30 < AceTetra> right, and what happens tio the space where the save was?
07:31 < AceTetra> to not tio
07:31 <+sorear> It gets added to the free block bitmap, and the next file I create can use it
07:31 < AceTetra> ok, so it's almost like you have a filesystem inside a file
07:32 < AceTetra> how do you detect block size?
07:32 <+sorear> I don't
07:32 <+sorear> The OS does this
07:32 <+sorear> Block size was configured about seven years ago when I ran mke2fs /dev/hdb1
07:33 < AceTetra> ok then how do you find out whether this single-file playground is better than having a folder and letting the os manage the whole thing?
07:34 <+sorear> The playground isn't a single file
07:34 <+sorear> The playground is a folder
07:35 < AceTetra> i thought you were proposing a single-file playground
07:35 <+sorear> I was, yesterday
07:35 <+sorear> This is today
07:35 < AceTetra> i like the "was" part :D
07:35 <+doy> sorear: it'd be nice if you'd mention the decisions you make while not talking on the channel d:
07:35 < AceTetra> ok i had a question like this lemme see
07:36 <+sorear> doy: I never decided to go single-file, I was what-iffing
07:36 <+doy> "it's a different day! obviously my decisions are going to be different!"
07:36 <+doy> (:
07:36 < AceTetra> i asked: "ok, are you talking about one file containg everyone's saves, a file per user with multiple saves, or just putting all the .sav .msg etc stuff in one file for each user?"
07:36 <+sorear> single file is an opportunity, I was weighing what it would cost and bring
07:36 <+sorear> AceTetra: Not #1.
07:36 <+sorear> AceTetra: #3 is the most likely
07:37 < AceTetra> good, because i didn't like #1!
07:37 <+sorear> #1 is permissions hell
07:37 < AceTetra> #3 would be amazingly awesome
07:37 <+doy> 3 was the original proposal from a couple weeks ago
07:37 <+sorear> #2 is a possibility, it would possibly make the savefile selection system work nicer
07:38 <+sorear> but it has free space reclamation issues, as AceTetra pointed out
07:38 <+sorear> so I've abandoned it
07:38 <+sorear> AceTetra: What would make #3 amazingly awesome, to you?
07:39 <+sorear> right now Crawl runs tar -zcf on clean shutdown and tar -zxf on startup
07:40 < AceTetra> i just like the idea of having the modified date match when i played it
07:40 < AceTetra> plus, i ge3t the impression it's more likely to have a performance boost with 
07:40 < AceTetra> #3 than the others
07:41 <+sorear> this works, but it gets messy on crashes, is unportable (it used to use zip, but installing zip on FreeBSD was awkward), it's fairly slow, and it doesn't allow you to rename files (because the full, conflict-free filenames are stored inside)
07:41 < AceTetra> also i think it would mesh better with permission systems
07:41 -!- mrawt is now known as mr0t
07:41 <+sorear> kilobyte(?) proposed using an internal zip engine
07:41 <+sorear> I countered with an internal compressed file system
07:41 < AceTetra> slow doesn't seem that relevant, since all of one save's .whatever gets written at once right?
07:41 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-114-135-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [No route to host]
07:42 <+sorear> AceTetra: no
07:42 < AceTetra> i don't care what it looks like internally really, surely that doesn't matter too much
07:42 < AceTetra> ok why are saves split up into .whatevers?
07:42 <+sorear> AceTetra: your save file consists of a couple files for your character and one file per game level; while you play, autosave occurs in increments of one level + your character
07:43 < AceTetra> ok, like nethack doew
07:43 < AceTetra> does
07:43 <+sorear> there may also be robustness issues involved
07:43 < AceTetra> i don't see why it's more of a problem to write one user's whole save at once
07:43 < AceTetra> most saves get splatted before they get big anyway right?
07:44 <+sorear> We don't write the whole save at once because the entire game isn't in memory at once
07:44 < AceTetra> and, as i said, i'd like proof of anyone's assessment
07:44 <+due> The server is robust.
07:44 < AceTetra> and i can't prove what i say
07:44 <+sorear> 1/40th of CAO is a suprisingly small amount of RAM
07:44 < AceTetra> cao is only 1/409 of raxbox?!
07:44 < AceTetra> 1/40 i mean
07:45 <+doy> cao has had up to 40 simultaneous games
07:45 <+sorear> CAO had 1G of total memory during the '08 tournament, and 40 simultaneous users
07:45 < AceTetra> ok, but i don't know what a crawl game takes to run. how much of raxbox does cao take?
07:45 <+sorear> I don't know how much it's been upgraded since then
07:45 <+doy> pretty sure it's had a decent ram upgrade since then
07:45 < AceTetra> i remember rax had to boost allocation in august
07:46 < AceTetra> hardware ram boost, not so likely
07:46 <+sorear> CAO is something like 1/10 of the raxbox, give or take
07:46 <+sorear> doy probably knows more here *cough* tozt.net *cough*
07:47 < AceTetra> that small? i thought it was like 1/4 of it during tournament
07:47 <+sorear> it could have been
07:47 <+sorear> VMs are awesome that way
07:47 <+doy> heh, i know very little about the operation in general
07:47 <+doy> but yeah, i only have 256mb on my vm
07:47 <+doy> and pretty sure cao has well over 1gb
07:47 <+doy> and i think there are only 8 or so vms?
07:47 < AceTetra> doy just knows how to script like a god
07:47 <+doy> i could be making that up though
07:48 <+doy> i used to have ssh access to cao, to mess with henzell
07:48 <+doy> but i think i changed ssh keys at some point
07:49 <+sorear> there are 14 IP addresses that reach strict-machine
07:49 < AceTetra> who hacks henzell/gretell now? i had few ideas for the bots
07:49 <+sorear> 12 or so of them have detectable open ports
07:49 <+sorear> strict-machine runs on a /28 subnet, .0 and .15 are unused
07:52 <+sorear> from a bit of reverse DNS scraping: strict-internal.1ts.org, badwolf.1ts.org, autumnfox.akrasiac.org, crawl.akrasiac.org, cyc.antepenultimate.org, sporkhack.nineball.org, tozt.akrasiac.org, toft.akrasiac.org, sartak.akrasiac.org, ps.ikeadelic.org, augustus.greyfire.org, placetime.org, alabaster.1ts.org
07:52 <+doy> this is a bit irrelevant at this point
07:52 <+sorear> ok
07:53 <+sorear> er, right, saving
07:53  * due pats sorear gently.
07:53 <+doy> the point is, crawl's memory footprint should probably stay under 30-40mb
07:53 <+sorear> what kinds of data would people like to suck out of savefiles without having to parse tags.cc data
07:53 < AceTetra> ok, what was that list?
07:53 <+doy> AceTetra: irrelevant
07:53 <+sorear> TAG_MAJOR_VERSION?
07:53 <+sorear> r/c?
07:53 <+sorear> etc
07:53 < AceTetra> doy: as long as it doesn't use any more window handles, feel free to suck up 2GB of memory
07:54 <+doy> AceTetra: the point that sorear was trying to make though was that in order to fit on cao, the memory usage needs to be limited
07:54 < AceTetra> oh ok
07:55 < AceTetra> dunno then :)
07:55 <+doy> and based on what we know about cao's memory availability and access patterns, that limit isn't incredibly high
07:55 <+sorear> CDO has 4GB of memory
07:55 <+doy> there you go
07:55 < AceTetra> how much logic does it take to run a crawl game?
07:55 <+doy> so there's a bit more breathing room then
07:55 <+sorear> however, this isn't a dedicated VM
07:55 <+doy> that too
07:55 <+doy> scoring scripts, henzell, etc
07:56 <+doy> AceTetra: "logic" is pretty vague there
07:57 < AceTetra> i'm wondering, like, how many operations per move? i know that some kinds of blinking use up a lot of time and random numbers
07:57 <+doy> what?
07:57 <+sorear> AceTetra: depends a lot on the move, and who else is moving
07:57 < AceTetra> i wrote the blink learndb entry, and i remember that it takes like 150 die rolls for no good reason
07:58 <+sorear> if you're just walking around in the temple, maybe 30k instructions
07:58 <+doy> the parts of the game that are cpu intensive are los calculations and monster ai
07:59 <+sorear> abandoning gods can take a solid 5+ seconds if you do it late enough though
07:59 <+doy> well
07:59 <+sorear> that's a bit of a corner case
07:59 <+doy> that's not because of cpu intensive things though
07:59 <+doy> that's reading all the level files from disk and such
07:59 < AceTetra> how is los calculation cpu intensive? it should take fewer than 1000 operations i think
07:59 <+doy> isn't it?
07:59 <+sorear> Linux allocatable memory is free+buffers+cached, right?
07:59 <+doy> AceTetra: "operations"
08:00 < AceTetra> doy: exactly, i really don't know what i'm talking about
08:00 <+doy> AceTetra: it uses fewer than 1000 rays in the raycasting algorithm
08:00 <+sorear> AceTetra: it takes 5000 memory cycles in master after a *huge* optimization binge by by
08:00 <+doy> but figuring out which rays to use is complicated
08:00 < AceTetra> i do know that 150 die rolls is an awful lot though
08:00 <+doy> but yeah, it has been optimized quite a bit
08:01 <+sorear> not really, the mersenne twister is pretty snappy
08:01 < AceTetra> i saw a LOS ray bug, how do i express it?
08:01  * due does the mersenne twist with Napkin.
08:01 <+doy> ...what?
08:01 < Napkin> :D
08:01 <+sorear> a what?
08:01 < AceTetra> crawl wanted to not zap through a statue for some reason, and the path it chose went through a location i couldn't see
08:02 <+due> You can't zap through statues.
08:02 < AceTetra> i could zap along the not-wholly-visible path
08:02 <+doy> AceTetra: a screenshot would be a lot more helpful
08:02 < AceTetra> i saved it lemme fetch it
08:03 < Twinge> @??sixfrhny
08:03 < Gretell> No Habla Espanol (unknown monster: "sixfrhny")
08:03 < Twinge> @??sixfirhy
08:03 <+sorear> @??sixfirhy
08:03 < Gretell> sixfirhy (4) | Speed: 30 (move: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 2/20 | Damage: 12(elec) | Flags: demonic | Res: magic(48) | XP: 260.
08:03 < Gretell> sixfirhy (4) | Speed: 30 (move: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 2/20 | Damage: 12(elec) | Flags: demonic | Res: magic(48) | XP: 260.
08:03 < Eronarn> i like how nobody has fixed their resists yet
08:03 <+sorear> Eronarn: rElec is way overused
08:04 <+due> What's wrong with their resists?
08:04 < ogaz> they're nonexistent?
08:04 <+due> They're rElec.
08:04 <+due> Kinda.
08:04 < ogaz> really?
08:04 <+due> Yes.
08:05 < AceTetra> huh, windows won't let me search
08:05 < AceTetra> i guess i'll have to guess the filename now
08:05 <+due> They heal from electrical damage.
08:05 < ogaz> oh
08:05 <+due> That needs to be a flag
08:05 <+due> Rather than a mons-specific case
08:05 <+sorear> why have a flag for something only one monster does
08:05 <+due> So that other monsters can do it?
08:06 <+sorear> (also, the speed effect)
08:06 <+due> anyway, bye
08:06 <+sorear> You're not going to give me a metadatum list?
08:06 < Eronarn> clearly, abominations should heal from elec
08:06 < AceTetra> it's 8 lines. you want pastebin right?
08:07 <+doy> AceTetra: yes
08:07 < Eronarn> and electrical golems
08:07 < Eronarn> and iron golems
08:07 < ogaz> Eronarn: make a unique abomination that does
08:07 < Eronarn> and air elementalists
08:07 < Eronarn> and quokkas
08:07 <+sorear> BO-RING
08:07 <+doy> electrical golems healing from elec could be fun
08:07 < Eronarn> doy: only if they were toned down to be less stupid
08:07 <+doy> they heal themselves by the bounces from their attacks
08:07 <+doy> (:
08:07 < Eronarn> @??electrical golem
08:07 < Gretell> No Habla Espanol (unknown monster: "electrical golem")
08:08 < Eronarn> @??electric golem
08:08 < Gretell> electric golem (8) | Speed: 20 | HD: 15 | Health: 105-165 | AC/EV: 5/20 | Damage: 15(elec), 15(elec), 15, 15 | Flags: non-living, see invisible | Res: magic(160), fire, cold, elec+++, poison+++ | XP: 5606 | Sp: b.lightning, blink.
08:08 < Eronarn> god they are so terrible
08:08 <+doy> what's terrible about them?
08:08 <+sorear> Quokkas ought to become undamagable by everything except fire attacks which kill them in a single hit
08:08 < Eronarn> doy: awful design
08:08 <+doy> Eronarn: how specific
08:09 <+sorear> I remember back when e.golems were immune to fire and cold
08:09 < Eronarn> doy: very fast, lots of attacks, very hard to hit, lots of elec damage, deadly even with rElec nevermind without it
08:09 < Eronarn> sorear: fun times!!!
08:09 <+sorear> and could blink through walls
08:09 < AceTetra> doy: http://crawl.pastebin.com/m5b3e4f16
08:10 <+sorear> Lemuel made this great vault with a glass room completely filled with the things
08:10 <+doy> AceTetra: and?
08:10 < Eronarn> sorear: hahahaha
08:10 < AceTetra> as i said, in that screenshot, i could shoot around a statue, through a location i couldn't see
08:10 <+doy> AceTetra: what does "the same map" mean
08:10 < AceTetra> k lemme read again
08:12 < AceTetra> here, look at http://crawl.pastebin.com/m11e43da6
08:13 < AceTetra> one issue is that i wouldn't have been able to shoot there if not for the statue
08:13 <+doy> AceTetra: ah, that is weird
08:13 <+doy> should post that on mantis
08:13 <+doy> by would probably know more about that
08:14 <+sorear> how does shooting past statues work anyway
08:14 < AceTetra> who should post what on what?
08:14 < ogaz> ??mantis
08:14 < Henzell> mantis[1/2]: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/
08:14 < Ashenzari> Saved game crashes when attempting to load... (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=338) by Twilight
08:14 < AceTetra> sorear: inconsistently apparently :P
08:15  * sorear takes up Twilight
08:16 < AceTetra> ok wait what about the bug where 'x-.' works inconsistently? post that there too?
08:16 <+doy> hitting things with a wand of striking doesn't charge it yet
08:16 < AceTetra> er 'x'.' i mean
08:16 < AceTetra> "x'." dammit
08:17 <+doy> what is x' supposed to do?
08:17 <+doy> it doesn't seem to be documented
08:18 < AceTetra> 'x', on the main view, should let you select and travel the same way 'X' does
08:18 <+doy> yes
08:18 < AceTetra> i can x' to select items, x- to select assholes, x>. to travel
08:19 < AceTetra> but, x>. doesn't work sometimes
08:19 <+doy> probably report it, and if you can give more information, that would be helpful
08:20 < AceTetra> if i could even understand or phrase the relevant info, i would
08:20 <+sorear> AceTetra: attach a ttyrec showing the bad behavior
08:21 < AceTetra> ok, so how do i report? is it a cdo wiki thing? i heard y'all aren't checking sf anymore
08:21 <+sorear> We check SF
08:21 <+sorear> We wish we didn't have to
08:21 <+doy> no we don't
08:21 <+doy> sorear does
08:21 < AceTetra> lost the time, can't find ttyrec, sorry
08:21 <+doy> but most everybody else doesn't
08:21 <+doy> dpeg probably still does too
08:21 <+sorear> doy: SF sends me mail whenever any ticket is added or edited
08:21 < AceTetra> all i have is that screenshot and the edited screenshot
08:22 < AceTetra> screenshots are so nice when you're screenshotting a terminal game
08:22 <+doy> sorear: pretty sure you're one of the few people who has it configured that way
08:23 < AceTetra> i haven't seen that shot path erroir since then, and i don't know how to reproduce it
08:23 < AceTetra> can i make a crawl game with an arbitrary map? maybe i could do it that way
08:23 < AceTetra> hehehe erroir
08:24 <+sorear> sure
08:24 <+doy> AceTetra: you can start up a wizmode game, and dig/disintegrate what you need to
08:24 < AceTetra> Join me in the erroir. We'll sit down and have tea, and discuss how shit fucks up.
08:24 <+sorear> or you could just draw the map in entry.des with WEIGHT:5000
08:24 < AceTetra> ok, what version of crawl should i wizmode for this?
08:27 < AceTetra> oh cool, firefox decided to send i click to some ad banner i didn't see
08:27 < AceTetra> my click not i click
08:28 < AceTetra> would this source code extract already?!
08:30 < AceTetra> ok, i have 0.5.2 running at least. how do i set up a situation?
08:32 < AceTetra> ok, seriously, i don't get it. what info did y'all need in addition to that screenshot, and how do i make it in wizmode?
08:36 <+sorear> mm, that was fast
08:36 <+sorear> unfortunately - oh the irony - I'll need to alter saving
08:43 <+due> Hi.
08:44 <+sorear> !tell kilobyte would you please not compare getMinorVersion() to a magic numeric literal?  Having TAG_MINOR_xxx constants is really useful to me
08:44 < Henzell> sorear: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
08:44 < AceTetra> firefox extensions all have a version literal
08:44 <+due> So, what spells should Dowan get on his buff?
08:45 < AceTetra> whenever i decide to use one, i edit its version to 999999999 just so i can install it without fucking around
08:45 < Eronarn> due: what's his current spell list
08:45 <+due> @??dowan
08:45 < Gretell> Dowan (e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 25 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(24) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 46 | Sp: throw frost, corona, blink, throw flame, haste other, minor healing.
08:45 <+due> HAste other will go
08:46 < Eronarn> due: replace it with brand-other
08:46 < AceTetra> dowan should get some teleport
08:46 < Eronarn> "Dowan gestures! Duvessa's elven sabre erupts in flame!"
08:46 < AceTetra> seems pretty wussy to me
08:46 <+sorear> Why does Dowan need to lose haste other?
08:47 <+due> sorear: AHis spell list changes when Duvessa dies.
08:48 <+due> With Duvessa dead, there's no point him keeping haste other.
08:48 < Eronarn> due: you could have him exert "terrible effort" to cast a few good conjurations or summs
08:48 < Eronarn> as a once-only thing
08:48 < Eronarn> comparable to duvessa's
08:49 <+due> Hm.
08:49 <+sorear> what?  I like dowan just running away
08:49 <+sorear> symmetry: not always good
08:49 <+due> Yes, but asymmetry in this instance = people kill Duvessa first.
08:51 <+sorear> no matter what you do, one of them will get killed first
08:52 <+sorear> you're power spiralling
08:52 <+due> hm
08:52 <+sorear> pretty soon we'll have elven_twin_died calling ouch(INSTANT_DEATH
08:52 <+due> :p
08:52 <+due> No
08:52 <+due> This was dpeg's suggestion, I think.
08:52 <+due> (Spell changes.)
08:52 < Eronarn> sorear: well, right now you always want to kill duvessa first if at all possible
08:52 <+due> But it's currently pretty spoiler-y.
08:52 < Eronarn> it should at least be preferred for some characters to kill dowan
08:53 < Eronarn> even if not most
08:53 <+sorear> Dowan should get Animate Dead
08:53 < Eronarn> ...oh man
08:53 < Eronarn> that's amazing
08:53 <+sorear> You kill Duvessa first?  You get to fight her twice.
08:53 <+due> That is pretty awesome.
08:54 <+due> but probably goes against the theme.
08:54 < Eronarn> "Dowan wipes the blood away from Duvessa's half-open mouth tenderly."
08:54 < Eronarn> "Dowan looks away from Duvessa in anguish. "What have I done!?""
08:55 < Eronarn> "Dowan scowls. "You - you made me do it!""
08:56 <+sorear> Or we could just ramp up the buffing
08:56 <+sorear> Dowan doesn't *need* to have nasty twin_died effects
08:56 <+sorear> if he's, say, casting Heal Other in addition to Haste Other
08:56 <+due> They also need to stay closer together.
08:56 < AceTetra> elf twin incest is a good idea
08:57 <+due> No, it's really not.
08:57 < Eronarn> due: the language stuff i'm going to be writing up for ugly things would actually support this
08:57 < AceTetra> well i was being kinda sarcastic
08:57 < Eronarn> it's designed to be very general and supports dialects
08:59 <+sorear> wait a second
09:00  * sorear checks the unrandart list
09:00 <+due> unraaand!
09:01 <+sorear> There are 84 unrandarts.
09:02 <+sorear> The save file code only saves the existance status of the first 50.
09:02 < Eronarn> ...hahaha
09:02 <+due> Oh, nice.
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09:06 <+by> good morning
09:06 <+due> hi rob!
09:13 <+doy> "It seems that hitting with a rod doesn't train the M&F skill;" <- someone should fix this
09:13  * due hits doy with a rod.
09:14 <+doy> did any changes to striking get in?
09:14 <+sorear> doy: someone needs to find out what's wrong first
09:15 <+sorear> I was definitely training M&F earlier
09:15 <+doy> i'm definitely not now
09:18 <+doy> oh, maybe i am
09:18 <+doy> it takes a while to gain the first skill level apparently
09:20 <+by> AceTetra: that LOS thing with statue you linked, you _should_ in fact be able to see the cell to the right of the statue I think
09:28 < CIA-64> sorear * rb7392f433201 /crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Remove some old save code
09:28 < CIA-64> sorear * r150e49039869 /crawl-ref/source/ (tags.cc tags.h): Fix marshalling of beholders and unrandarts (#338)
09:30 < purge> uh, i just started in a starting vault "castle" but i don't see a way across the deep water surrounding it?
09:31 < purge> looks like it forces you to go downstairs?
09:31 < purge> pretty lame :|
09:33 <+sorear> I like the 2% chance
09:40 <+sorear> help, I'm having a horribly overambitious idea
09:40 <+sorear> auto-generate tags.cc
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10:27 < cbus> sorear, I meant to ask if that was the case or that you need like level 27 in darts to use them properly
10:41 <+sorear> agh
10:42 <+sorear> tutorial.cc :696
10:42 <+sorear> someone was asking how many occurances of this there are in SS... I found another
10:43 <+doy> to be fair, in these situations it is being used to reduce code duplication
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10:50 <+greensnark> Mrrowl
10:50 <+greensnark> due's sick? Nooooo!
10:50 <+sorear> greensnark: I was thinking of storing metadata in the savefiles, outside the compressed blobs
10:51 <+due> Insane, maybe.
10:51 <+due> :)
10:51 <+sorear> greensnark: What would be most useful?
10:51 <+sorear> greensnark: TAG_MAJOR_VERSION?  Race?  Class?  The whereis block?
10:52 <+greensnark> All of the above
10:52 <+greensnark> due: Oh, just insane. That's normal in these parts.
10:52 <+greensnark> Can't be insane if it's normal.
10:53 <+kilobyte> Sanity is for the weak.
10:53 <+greensnark> Sanity is also for those without the courage to be totally nuts!
10:54 <+sorear> um, greensnark
10:54 <+sorear> I used !tell kilobyte earlier
10:54 <+sorear> I see no "You have N new messages"
10:54 <+sorear> in scrollback, on either channel
10:54 <+greensnark> There are !tell bugs
10:54 <+greensnark> I should really look at that code sometime
10:54 <+doy> it's also possible that kilobyte did !messages in a pm
10:54 <+kilobyte> sorear: I saw it in the scrollback, and did /msg henzell !messages
10:54 <+doy> before speaking
10:55  * sorear is conditioned to expect bugs by the newness of two-channel Henzell
10:55 <+sorear> greensnark: What else would you like to see in the metadata?
10:55 <+greensnark> whereis info covers most of what's useful to third parties
10:56 <+kilobyte> I'd check if we do safe byte sex, if we don't, it needs to be noted
10:57 <+kilobyte> different word lengths seem to work
10:57 <+sorear> different byte ordering works
10:57 <+sorear> different word lengths may work, at the whim of the compiler
10:58 <+sorear> Crawl is careful to only use explicitly sized and endianed writes, but lua is not
10:58 <+sorear> we're running a lua fork which uses explicit endians in lua chunks
10:58 <+kilobyte> I loaded saves from win32 on amd64 Linux multiple times, without any issues.
10:58 <+sorear> but it's still dependant on type size
10:58 <+sorear> kilobyte: amd64 uses 32 bit int and long
10:58 <+kilobyte> 32 bit int, 64 bit long
10:58 <+sorear> stupid, I know, but there's apparently a lot of code out there that depends on it
10:59 <+kilobyte> it's only misnamed in the source
10:59 <+kilobyte> props[].getLong() and the like work on ints, not longs
11:00 <+greensnark> We should really use explicitly sizde types like int32t for those
11:00 <+kilobyte> #include <stdio.h>
11:00 <+kilobyte> int main()
11:00 <+kilobyte> { printf("int %d, long %d\n", sizeof(int), sizeof(long)); return 0;
11:00 <+kilobyte> }
11:00 <+kilobyte> says int 4, long 8
11:01 <+kilobyte> I'd replace getLong at least, it really confused me in the past.
11:02 <+doy> greensnark: more c99 extensions!
11:02 <+doy> (:
11:03 <+sorear> kilobyte: short = at least 16 bits, long = at least 32
11:03 <+sorear> I think it's quite clear what the semantics are
11:03 <+sorear> kilobyte: the only types the lua serialization code is using are int, double, char, and uint32_t; if the byte sizes of these are the same, it will work
11:03 <+due> I see the ploog is around.
11:04 <+sorear> but e.g. an Alpha save (int = int64_t) won't load on AMD64
11:04 <+kilobyte> where int is 64 bit?
11:05 <+kilobyte> at least on all Linux arches int is 32 bits
11:05 <+due> Hehehe, my friend was just telling me about how they had installed a roguelike onto their wii. I asked which, they said, 'Not sure, let me link'...
11:05 <+due> http://www.wiibrew.org/wiki/DungeonCrawlStoneSoup
11:05 <+sorear> int is fairly big on alpha, I think it's 64 bit, all I remember for sure is that it caused portability problems for Perl
11:06 <+sorear> Perl was assuming that int was a proper subset of double
11:06 <+sorear> this is not true on Alpha
11:06 <+kilobyte> due: and to think I really hate having not enough keys for comfortable binds...
11:07 <+kilobyte> it's OS dependant, I'm sure on Linux int is always 32 bits
11:08 <+sorear> if true, that's ridiculous
11:08 <+kilobyte> http://wiki.debian.org/ArchitectureSpecificsMemo
11:09 <+sorear> there is one big piece of dodginess in our load/save code, the floating point marshaller
11:10 <+sorear> it will not work at all on platforms where sizeof(float) > 4 or big endian platforms where sizeof(long) > sizeof(float)
11:10 <+sorear> and among platforms where it works at all, saves are only transportable between 32-bit IEEE float platforms
11:12 <+kilobyte> that's easy to fix, we can force it to this format by hand during marshalling
11:13 <+kilobyte> or for simplicity, just sign/exponent/mantissa, without all the doodads like NaNs and underflows
11:14 <+doy> what platforms are we targeting that don't have 32-bit ieee floats?
11:15 < cbus> you gonna add a tutorial for AM? :D
11:15 < cbus> that would be cool btw
11:15 < cbus> "tutorial for the new stuff"
11:17 <+doy> dpeg said that the tutorials are only meant to familiarize people with basic concepts and interface
11:17 <+kilobyte> cbus: isn't that premature?  They just have been overhauled just a few days ago, and it's likely they'll have more big changes...
11:19 <+kilobyte> It appears that all non utterly fringe architectures have ints of 32 bits (16 bit DOS had 16, some long-dead RISCs had 64)
11:21 <+kilobyte> longs are always machine words except for win64, where they're only halfwords (and named "DWORDs", ironically)
11:23 <+kilobyte> I failed to find any (non-historic) architecture with non-32 bit floats.
11:23  * sorear wonders if x86_256 will still have 32 bit floats
11:24 <+doy> kilobyte: anything with non-ieee floats?
11:26 <+kilobyte> doy: at least not within the short google/wikipedia search I did
11:27 < cbus> kilobyte, yeah, but I meant for the version theyll get released in :)
11:27 <+due> Do we have any ranged characters in the tutorial?
11:28 < cbus> due, MiHu
11:28 < cbus> due, I think
11:28 <+sorear> CeHu
11:28 < cbus> due, uwasn't DEWz or something in there too?
11:29 <+due> Ah
11:29 < cbus> (if you count conjurers as ranged)
11:29 <+doy> the tutorial has mibe, cehu, and decj
11:30 <+doy> to teach the interface/basic playstyle for melee, ranged, and magic
11:31 <+sorear> the cehu tutorial will probably need some love soon
11:34 <+due> ooooff, as opposed to ooooza, or ooooolllhhhjjkkklllyuubbnnooo?
11:35 <+sorear> greensnark: Once there's more metadata in the saves, what should become of .whereis?
11:35 -!- by [n=rob@f052199246.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
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11:48 <+sorear> 02:48 < turnerjer> "Found a runed broad axe. The runed broad axe fails to  defend itself. You pummel the runed broad axe!!"  err.. i  sneak attacked it even though i thought it was loot?
11:49 <+sorear> 02:49 < turnerjer> do i sneak attack *all* loot before i pick it up?
11:49 <+sorear> 02:49 < turnerjer> wow i'm fuckin paranoid
11:49 <+sorear> awesome explanation
11:49 <+sorear> (yes, I know mimic stabs are gone :/)
11:49 <+sorear> why do we use sqlite if we're just going to pretend it's ndbm
11:54 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@85-131-30-15.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:54 <+greensnark> sorear: whereis should remain
11:54 <+kilobyte> a hash would be able to do everything we use sqlite for
11:54 <+greensnark> Mimic stabs <3
11:55 <+greensnark> I'd like to be able to open crystal plate mails like a pillowcase!!!
11:56 <+greensnark> We use sqlite because finding a decent ndbm on Windows was hard
11:56 <+greensnark> It may be better now
11:56 <+greensnark> peterb checked in some code using ndbm without checking whether it compiled on anything but Mac OS X :P
11:57 <+greensnark> And we had a little argument, after which I added sqlite for places without dbm
11:57 <+kilobyte> even ndbm is overkill
11:57 <+greensnark> I also wanted compiled vault defs to be dumped into sqlite dbs instead of the hand-hacked mess we use now
11:57 <+greensnark> Never got round to ti though
11:58 <+sorear> but I have a -lgdbm
11:58 <+sorear> why do I have sqlite here
11:58 <+sorear> greensnark: How would sqlite vaults differ from current vault code?
11:58 <+greensnark> Because discovering what dbm libs are available and what headers to use was apparently Hard
11:59 <+greensnark> sorear: I'm talking about the compiled form of .des files
11:59 <+sorear> What other parts of Crawl could benefit from databasification?
11:59 <+sorear> greensnark: yeah, I thought they were just tagged files
11:59 <+sorear> how would storing them in a DB help?
11:59 <+greensnark> They're atm in a bletcherous homebrew format that is fragile when updating .des files in a running Crawl's dir
12:00 <+sorear> How different would they look in sqlite format?
12:00 <+sorear> Also, what's with all the zero-length files in my saves/{db,des} folder
12:00 <+greensnark> Symptoms of the disease :P
12:01 <+greensnark> A bunch of junk lock files and stuff
12:01 <+sorear> But the stuff in db *is* sqlite
12:01 <+sorear> why does it need lock files
12:01 <+greensnark> Oh, the db stuff is the messages
12:01 <+greensnark> I'm referring to saves/des
12:01 <+greensnark> Where the compiled .des files hang out
12:05 <+sorear> Mmm.
12:05 <+sorear> What else could benefit from not being in a bletcherous homebrew format?
12:05  * sorear ponders what he can move over
12:06 <+sorear> hey, it looks like there's code to list my savefiles.  Funny it doesn't work
12:07 < purge> lol rob just died to pure greed in that devious bailey
12:08 <+by> actually no
12:08 <+by> I died because looking up the des file for secret door locations was too tedious
12:08  * sorear pokes greensnark
12:09 <+sorear> by: let's get rid of secret doors while nobody is looking
12:11 <+by> I think people would notice
12:12 < Twinge> Mu would notice :P
12:13 <+due> I would notice.
12:18  * sorear grumbles at greensnark
12:18  * sorear vanishes
12:20 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
12:21 <+due> As does ashenzari.
12:30 <+due> Ciao.
12:42 < cbus> napkin, evil, playing with that large terminal
12:42 < Napkin> oh?
12:42 < cbus> impossible to view :)
12:42 < Napkin> it's not so large
12:42 < cbus> its larger than 80x24!
12:42 < Napkin> it's actually a pretty big font on this 1280x1024 tft
12:42 < Napkin> which is not extraordinarily big either ;)
13:04 <+kilobyte> yeah, what's up with that 1970s era terminal size limitation?
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13:08 <+kilobyte> by the way, it would be a good idea to make Crawl output "\e[8;%d;%dt",rows,cols so ttyrecs and watchers get the information about window size
13:09 <+kilobyte> many terminals will resize themselves when not in full-screen mode, and the rest will silently ignore that code
13:09 <+kilobyte> same with "\e%G" when in Unicode mode
13:12 < cbus> kilobyte, takes up the entire screen
13:12 < Twinge> Wait, I thought sorear said stabbing mimics was removed?  It still seems to be present...
13:29 < cbus> what are altered rats? @?? doesn't say anything about em
13:30 < cbus> ohh, they are hell dogs
13:31 < syllogism> wizlab?
13:31 < cbus> yeah
13:32 < cbus> yawn
13:32 < cbus> having a vault that requires consumables to get into and then having teletraps in it isn't really cool...
13:33 < syllogism> it doesn't require consumables
13:34 < cbus> and how does levi work? :)
13:35 < syllogism> you evoke it :P
13:35 < cbus> and it requires nutrition which you get from consumables
13:35 < syllogism> moving requires consumables too then
13:36 <+greensnark> You know, consumables are there to be consumed :P
13:36 <+greensnark> You don't keep them around for their ornamental value
13:37 < syllogism> they are there to be stashed away
13:38 < Twinge> No, neat randarts you'll never use are there to be stashed away :)
13:39 < syllogism> ideally you'll get the dragon vault in lair so you've a nice place for your hoard
13:48 <+greensnark> The dragon's hoard, you mean
13:48 <+greensnark> After it kills you and takes your stuff
13:49 <+greensnark> We need Lair:$ vaults
13:49 <+greensnark> Could add ancient golden dragon there :P
13:56 <+greensnark> I wonder if I should replace Shoals stone giants with tentacled monstrosities
13:57 <+greensnark> syllogism: Thoughts? :P
13:57 < syllogism> only if you also improve them a bit
13:57 <+greensnark> True
13:57 < syllogism> @?? tentacled monstrosity
13:57 < Gretell> tentacled monstrosity (X) | Speed: 9 | HD: 25 | Health: 75-200 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 22, 17, 13 | Flags: demonic, amphibious, see invisible | Res: magic(166), fire, cold, elec++, poison | XP: 2135.
13:57 <+greensnark> But that will allow me to laugh off allegations that Shoals and Swamp are too dissimilar
13:57 < syllogism> well they arent that bad for shoals I guess
13:57 <+greensnark> I can say: "they both have tentacled monstrosities" :P
13:57 <+greensnark> Only Shoals has more :P
13:57 <+greensnark> Creatures from the Black Lagoon and that sort of stuff
13:57 < syllogism> swamp has one every 50 games :P
13:58 < syllogism> generously
13:58 <+greensnark> Yeah, I didn't say how many it has :P
13:58 <+greensnark> I've seen one X in the Swamp in all my games :P
13:58 < syllogism> should probably do something about that
13:58 < syllogism> rare monsters are too rare
14:04 < Napkin> what am I doing wrong?
14:04 < Napkin>  Wield which item (- for none, * to show all)?
14:04 < Napkin>  i - a small ebony casket (in hand)
14:04 < Napkin> -That item cannot be evoked!
14:04 < Napkin> ---
14:04 < Napkin> it's not showing {empty} in inventory
14:04 < syllogism> I read The Magicians, it was fine but I don't really see why your "don't read fiction" friends thought it was worth recommending
14:08 < CIA-64> kilobyte * r638720017437 /crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Make holy scourges have same handedness as unblessed demon whips.
14:12 <+greensnark> syllogism: They don't read much fantasy
14:12 <+greensnark> Haven't read it yet, so I don't know why it got them interested
14:13 < purge> mmmm i can recommend some good fantasy, its the only genre i read :)
14:13 < purge> well, and fantasy-scifi
14:14 < purge> @whereis greensnark
14:14 < Gretell> greensnark the Basher (L11 OgEn), a worshipper of Sif Muna, saved on D:12 on 2010-01-04 after 18056 turns.
14:14 < purge> hmmm still alive.....
14:15 < syllogism> he should do shoals next
14:24 -!- Antagonist [n=Landon@196-209-77-128-rndf-esr-5.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:31 < cbus> hmm, don't SpAs start with exotic needles (except curare)?
14:32 < syllogism> Not yet
14:38 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."]
14:52 <+Keskitalo> I see Linley mentions Stone Soup in the readme.txt of his new game. He lists his other games, with "Crawl (now with a new life as Crawl Stone Soup)"
14:52 -!- gal_bolle [n=gal_boll@193.49.83.114] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:59 < syllogism> his new game?
15:03 < syllogism> oh I see it
15:06 < Napkin> should a ebony casket tell me, that it's empty?
15:06 < Napkin> instead of just "That item cannot be evoked!"
15:08 < syllogism> apparently the first time you use it it says it's empty
15:08 < syllogism> followed by that
15:10 < Napkin> wasn't there a (0) or {empty} after it's name in the past?
15:13 < syllogism> doesn't it say "an empty ebony casket" ?
15:13 < syllogism> oh I see now it doesn't unless you identify it
15:17 < purge> geez i just figured out how i can watch napkins huge screen size
15:18 < purge> if i view his game and then maximize putty it crashes/closes, but if i maximize before i view his game it works
15:18 < Napkin> purge
15:18 < Napkin> you can also press "my letter" in the watch-screen while holding shift
15:18 < Napkin> it'll try to resize automatically
15:18 < purge> oooo neat
15:19 < syllogism> oh wow
15:19 < syllogism> that's amazing :P
15:19 < Napkin> oh?
15:19 < Napkin> it's mentioned at the top help text ;-P
15:19 < syllogism> never knew about it
15:20 < Napkin> yeah.. not too obvious, true
15:28 <+greensnark> Napking's term is like a supertanker trying to sail up a brook on my screen :P
15:28 <+greensnark> I have to reduce my font size :P
15:29 < Napkin> <3 big playfield <3 many messages :)
15:29  * greensnark censures Napkin for making him change his font size.
15:29 < Napkin> even bigger?
15:29 < Napkin> I'm using 12 already! I believe at 13 my boss would realize I'm actually not running debug mode on some scripts ;>
15:30 < syllogism> i've it set so changing window size changes font size
15:30 <+greensnark> Well, I use 24 point :P
15:30 < Napkin> She's not _that_ dumb :D
15:31 <+greensnark> Actually I can increase it, I don't know why I've been suffering 24 point when I can easily do 28
15:31 < Napkin> loool
15:31 < Napkin> maybe you guys should invest in glasses instead of bigger tfts? ;>
15:32 <+greensnark> There's a majesty to a purple C in 28 point that you 12pt 1080x1080 term users don't quite grasp :P
15:33 < Napkin> :))
15:34 <+Zaba> greensnark, but I have a 1280x1024 screen!
15:35 <+greensnark> Zaba: Do you also have a point hiding somewhere? :P
15:35 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:35 <+Zaba> hmm?
15:36 <+greensnark> Is your screen res supposed to be deeply meaningful for some reason
15:36 <+Zaba> well... no..
15:36 <+greensnark> Is it the sort of thing Dan Brown's characters would spend ten minutes finding messages from the antichrist in?
15:36 <+greensnark> Oh, ok
15:36 <+Zaba> well, they indeed would
15:36 <+Zaba> they would spend time doing that in _anything_
15:36 <+greensnark> Yeah, they're not very bright :P
15:38 < Napkin> hehe
15:38 < Napkin> hey
15:38 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
15:39 < Napkin> why do I have a blue asterisk in the top-right beside my name? :-O
15:39 < syllogism> *Wizmode ? :P
15:39 < Napkin> what?!
15:39 < Napkin> noooo!
15:39 < Napkin> I hope not
15:39 < syllogism> try & hehe
15:40 < Napkin> Unknown command :D
15:40 < Napkin> Napkin the Fighter                *
15:40 < Napkin> Level 11 Mountain Dwarf of Okawaru
15:40 < Napkin> Health: 98/98     ========================
15:40 < Napkin> ---
15:40 <+by> I've seen that locally in a DGL build
15:40 < Napkin> jajaja, boring, I know.. but I want to win once in a while :-P
15:40 < Napkin> let me check dgl source
15:41 <+by> thought it was some dgamelaunch magic
15:41 <+greensnark> Heh, DrPraetor nearly splatted majestically
15:41 < syllogism> he still might
15:41 <+greensnark> Wow
15:42 <+greensnark> Embarrassing way to go :P
15:42 < ortoslon> Napkin: latest playtesting post is more fresh than last windows build
15:42 < Napkin> true
15:42 < ortoslon> go go gadget update
15:43 < Napkin> beep, beep - beeeeeeeeeep...
15:44 < syllogism> silver sears him because of makhleb?
15:45 <+greensnark> I have no idea why silver was damaging him
15:45 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
15:45 < Napkin> Darshan, do you have any idea?
15:45 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:46 < syllogism> yep, makhleb
15:46 <+greensnark> What was the question?
15:47 < purge> not nice having a sewer portal inside a vault with a secret door since its timed :|
15:47  * purge goes to look it up
15:48 < Napkin> about the "*" behind my name
15:48 < Napkin> in the game
15:48 < Napkin> --
15:48 < Napkin> Napkin the Fighter                *
15:48 < Napkin> Level 11 Mountain Dwarf of Okawaru
15:48 < Napkin> Health: 98/98     ========================
15:48 < Napkin> ---
15:48 < syllogism> you are a star
15:48 < Napkin> it's a blue asterisk
15:49 < Napkin> it says after save/load
15:50 < purge> so sewer entrance 3 has no way into it besides disintegration/digging?
15:51 < syllogism> it does have a secret door
15:52 < syllogism> or two
15:52 < purge> but there is no way to know?
15:52 < purge> the .des shows nothing :|
15:52 < syllogism> it's randomized
15:52 < syllogism> no cheating!
15:52 < purge> gah so lame to do that on a timed portal
15:59 <+greensnark> Napkin: I cannto get a local repro on a non-wizard dgl build
16:00 < syllogism> well napkin is the only one with the star, maybe it's a huge term issue :P
16:00 < Napkin> lol
16:01 <+greensnark> Napkin: I do get the blue * if I enter wizmode
16:01 <+greensnark> Looks like the *WIZARD* item is getting overwritten
16:01 < Napkin> oh..
16:01 < Napkin> I've never been in wizard mode
16:01 <+greensnark> You wizmode user :P
16:01 < Napkin> aha :-O
16:02 < Napkin> so I have wizard mode in a build where wizard mode is not enabled :-O
16:02 <+greensnark> Good work
16:02 <+greensnark> But it seems strange to hack your own crawl server! :P
16:02 < Napkin> would wizard mode create milestones?
16:03 <+greensnark> Yes
16:03 < Napkin> doooh :-P
16:03 < Napkin> ok.. so what else will happen?
16:03 < Napkin> Will it be a normal game?
16:03 <+greensnark> No logfile entry, assuming you haven't enabled scoring for wizmode characters
16:03 <+greensnark> We'll know if you don't get a death announcement
16:03 < Napkin> untouched source code
16:03 < syllogism> but he says wizmode commands arent working either
16:04 < Napkin> logfile contains deaths only?
16:04 <+greensnark> You can turn off wizmode activation in the rc
16:04 <+greensnark> But if the game thinks wizmode was *ever* activated
16:04 <+greensnark> Your game retains the flag
16:04 <+greensnark> Napkin: Well, wins also :P
16:04 <+greensnark> But let's not go crazy here :)
16:04 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@80-41-137-130.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:04 < syllogism> well it's a mdfi...
16:04 <+greensnark> Don't worry, the stress of not knowing whether or not he's in wizmode will kill Napkin quick
16:04 -!- AceTetra [n=AceTetra@97-126-65-38.tukw.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:05 <+kilobyte> well, press & and you'll be told
16:05 < syllogism> just copy the save and die
16:05 < syllogism> oh wait
16:05 < Napkin> nobody has the asterisk but me
16:05 < Napkin> pressing "&" gives me "Unknown command.", kilobyte 
16:06 <+kilobyte> ah hrm
16:06 < Napkin> ok, so let's see
16:06 <+greensnark> Did you ever build a debug build and load your save in it?
16:06 <+greensnark> That will mark the save as wizmoded forevermore
16:07 < Napkin> no
16:07 <+greensnark> Even if you load it in a non-debug build
16:07 < Napkin> I just started the game this morning
16:07 <+greensnark> Weird
16:07 < Napkin> i don't do debug builds
16:07 < Napkin> and I've never activated wizard mode - not even when playing local
16:07 <+greensnark> Do you get the blue * in an 80x24 term? :P
16:07 < syllogism> why is your game_id=0
16:08 <+greensnark> game_ids are null for milestones until the game is over
16:08 < syllogism> oh
16:08 <+greensnark> !lm Napkin
16:08 < Henzell> 652. [2010-01-05] Napkin the Fighter (L11 MDFi) killed Harold on turn 14006. (Lair:1)
16:08 <+greensnark> !lm Napkin x=wiz
16:08 < Henzell> 652. [2010-01-05] [wiz=] Napkin the Fighter (L11 MDFi) killed Harold on turn 14006. (Lair:1)
16:08 < Napkin> yes, in 80x24 too
16:08 <+greensnark> Looks ok :P
16:08 <+greensnark> !lm * wiz!=
16:08 <+greensnark> No index on wiz :P
16:08 <+greensnark> Henzell is probably clutching its head and rolling in circles :P
16:08 < Henzell> No milestones for * (wiz!=).
16:09 <+by> cprintf("%-*s", ...)
16:09 <+by> maybe it's that asterisk?
16:09 <+greensnark> Well, it shouldn't be :)
16:09 <+by> clearly not :)
16:09 < Napkin> ok, backed up.. will die now
16:09 <+greensnark> Napkin: No hang on
16:09 < Napkin> ok
16:10 <+greensnark> Probably not wizmode :P
16:10 <+greensnark> Your milestones should have been wizmoded if so
16:10 < Napkin> ok
16:10 < Napkin> v=0.6.0-a1:lv=0.1:name=Napkin:uid=2002:race=Mountain Dwarf:cls=Fighter:char=MDFi:xl=11:sk=Fighting:sklev=10:title=Fighter:place
16:10 < Napkin> =Lair::1:br=Lair:lvl=1:ltyp=D:hp=98:mhp=98:mmhp=98:str=24:int=6:dex=11:god=Okawaru:start=20100005101252S:dur=7682:turn=14006:ki
16:10 < Napkin> lls=291:gold=622:goldfound=602:goldspent=0:time=20100005143243S:type=unique:milestone=killed Harold.
16:11 <+greensnark> spaaaaam
16:11 < Napkin> :-P
16:11 < Napkin> that's what milestones are for - right? ;>
16:11 < paxed> gdb it?
16:12 < Napkin> no fun in a chroot, paxed
16:12 <+greensnark> Hm, actually the code to dump wiz=1 to milestones/logfile works only in wizard builds
16:12 <+greensnark> Napkin: Can I have your save?
16:12 <+greensnark> I can test it local
16:12 < Napkin> sure, 1s
16:12 < Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/saves/Napkin-b1ee54b-100105-1612.tar.bz2
16:13 <+greensnark> Got it
16:16 <+greensnark> Napkin: Ok, your save is wizmode-tainted
16:17 <+greensnark> How did you manage it? :P
16:17 <+greensnark> Did something break save compatibility without incrementing major version?
16:18 <+greensnark> Oh wait, I was testing on an old crawl :P
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16:19 <+greensnark> ... not that that changed thing
16:20 <+greensnark> Napkin: You wizmode hax0r :P
16:20 <+greensnark> How did you do that? :P
16:20 <+doy> kilobyte: i'd appreciate it if you didn't make crawl try to resize my terminal d:
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16:20 < Ashenzari> Shapeshifters & Mermaids (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=340) by Twinge
16:20 < Ashenzari> Assert error in crawl_tiles-0.6.0-a1-1977 (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=339) by purge
16:22 < Napkin> well, I have no clue
16:22 < Napkin> is it somewhere noted in the game-notes?
16:22 < Napkin> I was just playing
16:22 < Napkin> and didn't pay attention when it shows up
16:22 <+greensnark> And the beholder change breaks saves
16:23 < Napkin> b1ee54b | Darshan Shaligram | 2010-01-04 22:48:24 +0530
16:23 <+greensnark> As does the MAX_RANDARTS change
16:23 < Napkin> Move to a more compile-safe way of defining species skill aptitudes.
16:23 < Napkin> This also fixes broken aptitudes after Darts skill was removed.
16:23 <+greensnark> Napkin: That doesn't touch saves in any way :P
16:24 < Napkin> that's the running version
16:24 < Napkin> I don't know why syllogism is still playing the old save
16:24 <+greensnark> Napkin: Yes, I used that version to test
16:24 < Napkin> I created this char this morning - so it wasn't transferred
16:24 < syllogism> huh? :P
16:24 <+greensnark> Your game is marked as wizmoded for some reason
16:24 < syllogism> you mean HuAs?
16:25 < Napkin> your char "syllogism"
16:25 < Napkin> nothing noted in the character notes
16:25 < syllogism> well it prompts me to trasnfer it
16:26 < Napkin> so it's a bug, greensnark
16:26 < syllogism> it was just a test star
16:26 < syllogism> char
16:26 < CIA-64> j-p-e-g * r465c2fbeb4a5 /crawl-ref/source/ (exclude.cc exclude.h): Fix exclusions not being listed on the overmap screen.
16:26 <+greensnark> Napkin: Weird bug, whatever it is
16:26 < Napkin> so.. what now?
16:27 < Napkin> just continue?
16:27 <+greensnark> Game won't be scored if you do
16:27 < Napkin> I guess I can't reset that wiz-flag, right?
16:27 <+greensnark> You can with a hex-edit
16:27 < Napkin> mmmhhrrrrpppfff.. not nice
16:27 <+kilobyte> we can make it set you.wizard = false
16:27 <+greensnark> Yeah, or that
16:27 <+greensnark> Patch the build to turn off the flag
16:28 < Napkin> well, i'll think about it if I really grab the orb - which I doubt
16:28 <+greensnark> I'd like to know how it happened
16:28 < Napkin> i'll try within the next 2 levels anyways :D
16:28 < Napkin> probably
16:28 < Napkin> *I'll die
16:29 <+by> are neighbouring fields in the player struct corrupt? normal_vision/current_vision say?
16:29 <+greensnark> How to check those?
16:30 <+by> I thought you might have gdb open
16:30 <+greensnark> Wouldn't they have been fixed by all the save/loads, I mean
16:30 <+by> shouldn't be, I think
16:30 <+by> just +-2 for wielding/unwielding lantern of shadows
16:34 <+greensnark> Bleh, symbols stripped :P
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16:37 <+by> normal_vision/current_vision seem fine
16:38 <+greensnark> Looks like jus wizard got toggled on
16:41 <+greensnark> !lm Napking x=start
16:41 < Henzell> No milestones for Napking.
16:41 <+greensnark> !lm Napkin x=start
16:41 <+greensnark> Er
16:41 <+greensnark> !lm Napkin x=time
16:41 < Henzell> 652. [2010-01-05] [start=-01-] Napkin the Fighter (L11 MDFi) killed Harold on turn 14006. (Lair:1)
16:41 < Henzell> 652. [2010-01-05] [time=2010-01-05] Napkin the Fighter (L11 MDFi) killed Harold on turn 14006. (Lair:1)
16:41 <+greensnark> That looks about right
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16:43 < Napkin> what about this? :gold=622:goldfound=602:goldspent=0
16:43 <+greensnark> Looks fine too
16:43 < Napkin> I met Maurice - but he couldn't reach me
16:43 <+greensnark> But the weapon/armour base type tracking save/load code
16:43 <+greensnark> Is conditional on major version 14
16:43 <+greensnark> Although major version is 15
16:44 <+doy> i thought the whole point of major versions was that we don't make them conditional on anything
16:44 <+greensnark> Oh, it should work, I was misreading the nestedness
16:44 <+greensnark> Yeah, major versions should be conditional at all, but this was ifdefed by major version
16:45 <+greensnark> But sorear's last change to beholders breaks saves because minor version wasn't incremented
16:45 <+greensnark> Still no idea what Napkin's bug is from, then :P
16:45 <+doy> sorear, breaking save compatibility?
16:45 <+doy> gasp
16:47 < Napkin> *sniffle*
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16:47 < Napkin> I'll be always called a cheater if I win!
16:50 <+by> the game hasn't been saved/loaded with different versions?
16:50 <+greensnark> Napkin says he created it in b1ee54b
16:50 <+greensnark> And cdo is still on that
16:50 <+by> ok
16:50 <+greensnark> I suspect Napkin has just been hitting the schnapps too hard :P
16:51 < Napkin> rofl
16:51 <+greensnark> Or perhaps the strain of repeatedly looking from the map to the status area in his 10k by 10k term
16:51 < Napkin> määääh :-P
16:52 <+greensnark> The human neck was not designed for such terms :P
16:52 < Napkin> sssh!
16:52 <+greensnark> Napkin: Just to confirm, 15.1 is the current save version on cdo, right?
16:52 < Napkin> yes, exactly
16:53 < Napkin> installed yesterday afternoon
16:53 < Napkin> and my char started this morning, right?
16:53 <+greensnark> So we're told :P
16:53 < Napkin> i thought x=start and x=time says so? :-P
16:54 < CIA-64> greensnark * r75767212fc2d /crawl-ref/source/tags.h: Increment minor version for beholder save change, since cdo's current save version was already 15.1 as of b1ee54b1.
16:54 <+greensnark> Ok, ok, you started the character today :)
16:55 < Napkin> :)
16:56 < Napkin> well, let check the timestamps, to make sure
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16:56 <+greensnark> How many times did you save? And what branches have you visited?
16:56 <+greensnark> How about a character dump
16:57 < Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Napkin/Napkin.txt
16:57 < Napkin> temple, looked into orc but ran, then lair
16:58 < Napkin> And I think.. I saved first when I save the asterisk to try to get rid of it - but not sure - I might have saved during team-meeting at 13 o'clock ;))
16:59 <+greensnark> You got abyssed, interesting
17:00 < Napkin> yeah.. weapon of distortion.. at XL10
17:00 < Napkin> lucky me
17:00 <+greensnark> Not that that should have anything to do with it
17:00 < Napkin> that I survived
17:00 < Napkin> that's what I get for checking out orc so early ;)
17:01 <+by> reading of you.seen_weapon/armour should be conditional on minorversion >= 1, no?
17:02 < Napkin> Jan  5 12:23 Napkin-2002.01a <- started today, I believe ;)
17:02 <+greensnark> by: Was it added in 14 or 15?
17:02 <+greensnark> You're right
17:03 <+by> I'm not sure, I'm confused
17:04 < Napkin> need food, brb
17:04 <+greensnark> I checked just now, you're correct
17:04 <+greensnark> It was a confusing sequence
17:04 <+greensnark> due bumped to v15.0, kilobyte -> 15.1 + added seen_weapons, but the #ifdef checked for v14.x, which confused me, sorear -> 15.1 (still), added beholder change
17:05 <+by> ok, yes, the #ifdef 14 just got me, too
17:07 < CIA-64> greensnark * r666caed8492c /crawl-ref/source/ (tags.cc tags.h): Make seen weapon/armour load conditional on v>=15.1 (rob).
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17:16 < Napkin> sooo..?
17:16 < Napkin> any new insights?
17:16 <+greensnark> Your wizmoding is still a mystery :P
17:16 < Napkin> nooooo!
17:17 < Napkin> ortoslon, compiling windows builds, now
17:17 < ortoslon> approval!
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17:20 <+greensnark> So due went with malarious mermaid, huh :P
17:21 < syllogism> ?
17:22 <+greensnark> Sewer vault gets a mermaid that's apparently ill from the sewage :P
17:22 < syllogism> oh . . .
17:22 <+greensnark> There was a discussion on the custom name to use :P
17:22 <+greensnark> And I just saw someone on ##crawl trying to @?? malarious mermaid
17:22 < syllogism> didn't realize that suggestion was serious :P
17:22 < Napkin> darfs of reaping: If it kills a monster, causing it to leave a corpse, the corpse will be animated as a zombie friendly to the one who threw it. <- _will_ or _can_?
17:23 < Napkin> because it didn't
17:23 <+greensnark> What monster was this
17:23 < Napkin> spiny frog
17:23 <+greensnark> Maybe it's only a chance, dunno
17:24 <+greensnark> Assuming you didn't just kill the spiny frog as it was standing on a honeycomb or something :P
17:24 < Napkin> hehe, no
17:25 < Napkin> ok, just double checked - it didn't work
17:27 < Napkin> again it didn't
17:27 <+greensnark> Is this a reaping bug?
17:28 < syllogism> working locally
17:28 < Napkin> twice in a row it didn't
17:28 < syllogism> and it left a corpse?
17:28 < Napkin> no
17:28 < syllogism> it only works if there's a corpse
17:28 < Napkin> neither did - neither the yak nor the spiny frog
17:28 <+greensnark> Oh, that's it then
17:28 <+greensnark> The description does say it has to leave a corpse :)
17:29 < Napkin> 3rd time no corpse
17:29 < syllogism> well I think it's 1/3 :P
17:29 < Napkin> 4th
17:30 <+greensnark> For some reason watching games with the message pane on top is like sticking your head under a moving car to view the scenery
17:30 < syllogism> yes
17:30 < Napkin> omfg.. cure mutation takes out the uninteresting stuff but leaved the hooves :(
17:30 <+greensnark> Hooves are cute
17:31 <+greensnark> The centaurs might take a fancy to you, ware
17:31 < Napkin> mutations are absofuckinglutely always mean to me!
17:31 < Napkin> i watch my dad drink two potions in the row.. all 6 good mutations
17:31 < Napkin> his next game, again.. next game, again
17:31 <+greensnark> Don't worry, that is just to lure him into the habit of always quaffing mutation
17:32 <+greensnark> Once he's hooked crawl will switch to standard operating procedures
17:32 < Napkin> I was already wondering, if you changed it to have more good mutations if caused by potion.. but no.. not for Napkin :D
17:32 < Napkin> hehehe
17:33 < Napkin> and considering my luck about finding potions of cure mutation - I'll find the next while running outside with the orb in my backpack :-P
17:33 < Napkin> or a goblin picks it up and throws it into deep water or lava!
17:34 < Napkin> messages on top would be nice for tiles - but sadly it's not working there
17:36 < Napkin> wuff!
17:37 < Napkin> 5th
17:38 < Napkin> ok, nevermind - worked ;)
17:38 <+greensnark> What game was it that had the announcer say "CASUALTY" each time you let one of your soldiers die
17:39 <+greensnark> Napking's countdown was like that :P
17:39 <+greensnark> *CASUALTY* *CASUALTY* *CASUALTY* *ZOMBIE*
17:39 < Napkin> hehe
17:40 <+greensnark> !lm * rune=barnacled start<20091225
17:40 < Henzell> 168. [2009-12-31] valrus the Deadly Accurate (L22 OgAM) found a barnacled rune of Zot on turn 92747. (Shoal:5)
17:40 <+greensnark> !lm * br.end=Shoal:5 start<20091225
17:40 < Henzell> No milestones for * (br.end=Shoal:5 start<20091225).
17:41 <+greensnark> !lm * br.end=Shoal start<20091225
17:41 < syllogism> laser tag?
17:41 < Henzell> 184. [2009-12-31] valrus the Deadly Accurate (L22 OgAM) reached level 5 of the Shoals on turn 92060. (Shoal:5)
17:41 < syllogism> or like a computer game? :P
17:41 <+Zaba_> !lm * casualty
17:41 < Henzell> Malformed argument: casualty
17:41 <+greensnark> !lm * br.end=Shoal:5 start>=20091225
17:41 <+Zaba_> :/
17:41 < Henzell> No milestones for * (br.end=Shoal:5 start>=20091225).
17:41 <+greensnark> A computer game
17:41 <+greensnark> !lm * br.end=Shoal start>=20091225
17:41 < Henzell> 18. [2010-01-05] DrPraetor the Martial Artist (L15 MfTm) reached level 5 of the Shoals on turn 23976. (Shoal:5)
17:41 <+greensnark> !lm * rune=barnacled start>=20091225
17:41 < Henzell> 13. [2010-01-04] minmay the Devastator (L20 DECj) found a barnacled rune of Zot on turn 79539. (Shoal:5)
17:42 <+greensnark> Still pretty easy :P
17:45 <+doy> !lm * br.end=Snake start>=20091225
17:45 <+by> greensnark: you should play a bit with messages at top :)
17:45 <+doy> !lm * rune=serpentine start>=20091225
17:45 < Henzell> 65. [2010-01-05] oxeimon the Conjurer (L17 MuSt) reached level 5 of the Snake Pit on turn 87392. (Snake:5)
17:45 < Henzell> 47. [2010-01-05] VicViper the Warrior (L20 HuPa) found a serpentine rune of Zot on turn 62867. (Snake:5)
17:45 <+doy> !lm * br.end=Swamp start>=20091225
17:45 <+doy> !lm * rune=decaying start>=20091225
17:46 < Henzell> 52. [2010-01-05] Nosferax the Elven Blade (L17 HEPa) reached level 5 of the Swamp on turn 74270. (Swamp:5)
17:46 < Henzell> 48. [2010-01-05] Nosferax the Elven Blade (L18 HEPa) found a decaying rune of Zot on turn 77180. (Swamp:5)
17:46 <+greensnark> by: I tried watching your game, and it felt like the top of my heading was coming off, so I'll pass :)
17:46 <+doy> greensnark doesn't like change much
17:46 <+doy> (:
17:46 <+by> you'll get used to it
17:47 < Napkin> hah - found gloves.. so I can already guess the next mutation :-P
17:53 <+greensnark> Claws are good!
17:54 <+greensnark> !lg * place=Shoal:5 start>=20091225 s=ckiller
17:54 < Henzell> 4 games for * (place=Shoal:5 start>=20091225): 2x a merfolk javelineer, 1x a centaur warrior, 1x a mermaid
17:54 < Napkin> yeeeah.. and hooves are sweet, I know, I know ;)
17:55 <+greensnark> Napkin: Hooves are all the rage with the centaurs
17:55 <+greensnark> You best watch out for centaurs :P
17:55 <+greensnark> They can get very affectionate with their arrows of penetration
17:55 < Napkin> lol, they turn into friendlies now? :D
17:55 < Napkin> I'll just flash my hooves - we'll see :-P
17:57 <+doy> "hey dude, it's cool, i'm with you guys"
17:57 < Napkin> ortoslon, builds are up - no time to announce
17:57 < Napkin> off home \o/
17:58 <+greensnark> Rawr, finally done with work
17:59  * greensnark plays Crawl.
17:59 <+greensnark> With message window in right place, thankyouverymuch :P
17:59 <+greensnark> Can I get "Luddite" as a title
18:00 < syllogism> !lg greensnark
18:00 < Henzell> 431. greensnark the Basher (L11 OgEn), worshipper of Sif Muna, quit the game on D:12 on 2010-01-05, with 8640 points after 18056 turns and 2:29:59.
18:00 <+greensnark> Can't play on old versions :P
18:11 < purge> greensnark: just wait til you find some needles of sleep :D
18:15 <+greensnark> Ooh, so now I can keep rings of regen on all the time without hunger penalty
18:15 <+greensnark> Thanks purge
18:15 < syllogism> ?
18:15 < purge> np hehe i thought i remembered that commit
18:15 <+greensnark> syllogism: Extra hunger is apparents only if you.hp < you.max_hp
18:15 < syllogism> oh
18:16 < syllogism> that's a bit generous :P
18:16 <+greensnark> Yeah, it's a very strong ring
18:17 <+doy> the idea was that forcing people to constantly switch when autotraveling/exploring was irritating
18:18 <+greensnark> It should have increased hunger to compensate
18:18 <+doy> i thought it did?
18:18 <+greensnark> Oh, it did?
18:18 <+greensnark> Didn't see the checkin change
18:18 <+doy> that was what i thought the consensus was
18:18 <+doy> but i haven't looked at any of the code
18:19 <+doy> just vague memories of fr discussions
18:19 <+doy> if it didn't increase the hunger cost at the same time, that should probably be changed
18:24 <+by> what's the point of the spore-fungi again?
18:24 < purge> active ballis spawn more spores
18:24 < purge> but they were nerfed to crap
18:24 < purge> timer is high
18:25 <+by> but why?
18:25 <+doy> why what?
18:25 < purge> ^
18:26 <+by> why do ballistomycetes spawn spores and spores spawn ballistomycetes
18:26 < purge> to make them more interesting i suppose
18:27 < ogaz> because recursion is fun?(I have no idea)
18:27 < purge> i think its a cool little mechanic
18:27 <+doy> spores should stop spawning ballistos just by wandering though
18:29 < purge> the one that had me saying "huh" was corpses spawning random fungi
18:29 < purge> i was immediately reminded of slashem :)
18:29 <+by> wait, I didn't get any message for inadvertently drinking berserk rage as a che worshipper?
18:36 < syllogism> greensnark: wait you got xp for the imp kill?
18:37 <+greensnark> Game's growing too soft, no? :P
18:38 < syllogism> do you get 50% or 100%
18:39 <+greensnark> Hm, dunno
18:39 <+greensnark> Should be 50%
18:49 <+greensnark> Lotsof big kobolds :P
19:07 < Napkin> re!
19:07 <+Zaba_> wb Napkin
19:08 < Napkin> merci, Zaba!
19:08 <+greensnark> @??slave
19:08 < Gretell> slave (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 130.
19:08 <+greensnark> You know what MR 20 says to me
19:08 <+greensnark> It says to me there's a slave that doesn't know who its master is :P
19:09 <+greensnark> Oh. mischan :P
19:09 < Napkin> :D
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19:52 < syllogism> +0 needles dont do any damage? That's convenient as it allows using needles of wrath on your allies without making them hostile :P
19:53 <+greensnark> Apparently not
19:53 <+greensnark> I could also enslave monsters and poison them while they wagged their tails
19:53 < purge> greensnark: how was it to know, it was just like at the vet
19:53 < Twinge> Hah.
19:53 <+greensnark> Yeah, I said "Good doggy" as I was shooting them, and it fooled them completely
19:55 < purge> i only made 3 tiles for slimes :/ now i gotta work on two more :)
19:58 < syllogism> berserk saint roka hd27 has respectable 836 hp
19:59 < syllogism> Agnes could do better though
20:01 < syllogism> allies pick up blowguns but not needles
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20:06 < Ashenzari> Combined Slime Creatures have too much damage potential (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=341) by Twinge
20:29 < Napkin> war dogs can go berserk? :-O
20:29 < Napkin> arg - sling bullets of chaos :D
20:31 <+greensnark> The 2x hp boost should really be reverted for players and monsters
20:32 < syllogism> you can revert players now and monsters when someone notices the discrepancy
20:32 < Napkin> please do so, greensnark 
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20:35 <+doy> i can't log into mantis from here, so let me just express my disagreement with that report here
20:35 <+doy> Twinge: the point is that if you see a titanic slime creature, you should be trying to get it to unmerge
20:35 <+doy> not trying to kill it
20:35 <+doy> this is a different sort of threat from most other monsters, and was the entire point of making this change
20:36 < MarvinPA> it seems kinda harsh that you can quite probably be instakilled by them before you realise this fact, though
20:36 <+doy> there's currently a bug-ish thing where slime creatures will merge when they really shouldn't be
20:36 < Twinge> And a newish player would have no idea that it could even unmerge in the first place, and there's no indication it could kill them in a single blow.
20:36 < MarvinPA> if you've never seen one before
20:36 <+doy> but that should be fixed
20:38 <+by_> Twinge: a newish player would have no idea you may not survive a turn next to a hydra, either
20:39 < nrook> in theory, shouldn't new players see the in-between slime creature sizes before they see a titanic one? a player whose health was halved by a very large slime creature won't be hasty to go anywhere near a titanic one
20:43 < MarvinPA> to be fair, i did manage to barely survive my first encounter with a titanic slime creature, and then after that i was sufficiently cautious not to get caught next to one again
20:43 < MarvinPA> so i dunno, maybe they're ok, it is pretty terrifying how much damage they can do though :P
20:44 < nrook> whatever happened to that "hire a deep elf" summon spell that was kicked around?
20:45 < Twinge> by: The description of a hydra hints that it is a threat, at the very least.  And since it's multiple smaller attacks it's a lot more likely to be taken into AC or EV, and has less insta-kill potential
20:56 < ortoslon> does second plus on enchanted blowguns matter?
20:58 < syllogism> do they've a second plus
20:58 < ortoslon> yes
20:59 < ortoslon> the +1,+9 blowgun of Potauleg {speed, +Blink} - 1098 gold
20:59 < syllogism> oh right
20:59 < ortoslon> so does it matter when needles do negligible damage
21:00 < syllogism> it probably affects the enchantment duration
21:03 < syllogism> tormentor should be speed 10 now
21:03 < syllogism> just saw it torment Stickings twice in a turn
21:05 < cbus>  As you grasp it, you feel a great hunger.  Being not satiated, you stop.
21:05 < cbus> ehhr, did vamp weapons just get nerfed to ...?
21:06 < ogaz> cbus: they hunger you on equip instead of constantly, I think
21:08 < syllogism> apparently they do both, seems like a bug
21:08 < syllogism> unless I'm missing something
21:09 < cbus> I'll try
21:10 < MarvinPA> i think they hunger you lots upon wield, and increase your hunger rate if you keep them wielded but not as much as they used to increase it
21:10 < MarvinPA> that was how i had it explained to me a while ago
21:10 < syllogism> oh I guess it was more than +6 before
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21:15 < cbus> they are not really useful on stabbing spriggan
21:16 < cbus> atleast not if you want to use darts
21:16 < cbus> pretty sad imo
21:16 < TGW> wot?
21:16 < cbus> vampiric weapons
21:16 < TGW> s/darts/blowgun/ ?
21:16 < cbus> tgw, yes needles were in the darts skill
21:16 < cbus> but thats what I meant
21:18 < syllogism> it did definitely nerf vampiric stabs, which is unfortunate
21:19 < syllogism> you'll usually be at full hp when you stab though
21:20 < cbus> syllogism, not SpEn :)
21:20 < cbus> or if you use sleeping needles
21:20 < cbus> but yeah normal stabbing usage does not gain from vamp
21:20 < cbus> unless you run around with half half (suicidal)
21:21 < cbus> btw, the guardian spirit amulet thingie really helps Sp out :)
21:21 < cbus> makes them ALOT less squishy
21:22 < syllogism> yes
21:25 < cbus> syllogism, would you sacrifice the bonus damage from a "proper brand" to get vamp?
21:25 < cbus> on a short blade fighter (semi stabber)
21:26 <+doy> for stabbing, definitely
21:27 < cbus> doy, well its an As, only sleep induction is by wand (paralysis) or the 10 needles of sleep
21:27 < ortoslon> kiku description still says "you can pray to sacrifies all fresh corpses on your square"
21:27 <+doy> but i'd want a backup weapon for high-ac things
21:27 <+doy> that has better damage output
21:27 < ortoslon> also kiku description doesn't say how to imbue my weapon with pain
21:27 < cbus> doy, I do have a speed branded short blade, so I'm waiting for a quickblade or sabre of speed/vamp
21:27 < cbus> not worth using the short blade of vamp I think
21:27 < cbus> not without modifier slaying rings
21:28 <+doy> yeah, slaying is pretty critical for short blade fighters
21:28 <+doy> (these sorts of things are why i think we should get rid of short blades as a skill)
21:28 < cbus> does the skill even do anything? :)
21:29 <+doy> well, for fighting with them it does
21:29 <+doy> but i don't think fighting with short blades is going to remain a reasonable option once we start the weapon rebalancing
21:29 <+doy> would be nice to move them to a more stabbing-specific role
21:30 < cbus> I find it weird that there is one weapon class that is pretty much excluded from char creation (long blades)
21:30 <+doy> and just have a weapon skill for "swords" or so
21:30 < cbus> while we are talking about rebalancing weapon classes
21:30 <+doy> yes, i agree, this would fix that too
21:30 <+doy> so you could start with a short sword, but this would be equivalent to starting with a hand axe
21:31 <+doy> and then could move directly up to long sword from there or whatever
21:31 <+doy> hand axes are still useful later on because they can be thrown, short swords are still useful later on because you can stab better with them
21:31 < cbus> yeah, but have to be careful about the smaller races
21:31 <+doy> etc
21:31 <+doy> sure, there are certainly edge cases to worry about
21:31 < cbus> since they can't wield a buckler + long blade while they can wield short blade + buckler now
21:31 <+doy> but i'm just throwing out broad ideas, since this is still a long way off
21:31 <+doy> (:
21:31 < cbus> and then maybe Ko with blades would be decent again :D
21:32 < cbus> doy, yeah, but it sounds like nice ideas atleast :)
21:32 < cbus> maybe make axes/swords/polearms a bit more unique
21:32 <+doy> yes
21:32 < cbus> how about adding some kind of unique brands to them
21:32 < cbus> or something
21:32 < cbus> that only that weapon type can get
21:33 < TGW> "average player" can't run away from a titanic slime? you kidding?
21:33 < cbus> I was hit for infinite damage on my ghoul from a titanic (100-ish)
21:33 < cbus> with like 35 AC :)
21:34 < TGW> ortoslon: to pain brand your weapon, pray on altar; and you can pray to sacrifice corpses :|
21:34 < TGW> it just torments instead of adds piety
21:34 < ortoslon> but not all corpses
21:35 < ortoslon> or wait
21:35 < ortoslon> sorry :)
21:35 < Twinge> TGW: Average character type, I mean.  Same speed.
21:40 < TGW> remind me what depth slime creatures are at
21:40 <+doy> should add native depth to gretell
21:40 < TGW> would be nice
21:40 < TGW> whose is gretell?
21:41 < syllogism> it's tricky since you can't get it with the debug info
21:41 <+doy> napkin
21:41 < TGW> hm
21:41 <+doy> syllogism: maybe the debug info should be expanded?
21:41 < syllogism> why not
21:41 < Napkin> any info about how strongly bracers of archery work?
21:42 < syllogism> examine it?
21:42 < syllogism> it's like slaying
21:42 < syllogism> +1,+1 I guess
21:42 < TGW> "it's like slaying" is all I've seen so far
21:42 < Twinge> TGW: Swamp and Early Vaults mostly, I think.
21:42 < Napkin> well, guessing is good ;)
21:42 < TGW> twinge: point
21:42 < syllogism> "it's like slaying" but not really considering ranged combat damage is completely different
21:42 < syllogism> and I don't think the damage just gets added afterwards
21:43 < Napkin> it's rather like +1 (ranged), -1 (melee)
21:43 < Twinge> Last character I was playing first encountered a titanic at like 85hp max or something like that
21:43 < TGW> you can't "encounter a titanic"
21:43 < TGW> that doesn't happen
21:43 <+doy> TGW: well, i think you can at the moment
21:43 < Napkin> so I was wondering how much it "interferes" with melee - and now, please don't say "slightly", syllogism :-P
21:43 < TGW> you first have to watch five slime creatures get on the same space, with big flashy effects
21:43 <+doy> but that's mostly a bug
21:44 < TGW> hm yes, that IS quite the bug
21:44 < syllogism> I think it's -1,-1
21:44 <+doy> i'm not entirely sure on the conditions where they merge
21:44 < TGW> my condolences if you actually did encounter a titanic, but otherwise I am without sympathy
21:44 <+doy> but it's certainly "too often"
21:44 < TGW> doy: "whenever they like," but that's a known bug and twinge knows it's a known bug
21:44 <+doy> right
21:46 < syllogism> napkin: oh right, it's +5,+3
21:46 < syllogism> "slaying"
21:46 < Twinge> TGW: I did not know of that bug, no.  I don't believe I met a titanic to begin with though, but they merge fast.  I just don't like the idea of that much damage potential in a mid-level monster; being able to just be one-hit like that seems poor
21:47 < Napkin> ah, +5,+3 on ranged, -1,-1 on melee then
21:47 < syllogism> yes
21:48 < Napkin> seems like "ranged" are all ranged weapons, huh?
21:48 < Napkin> wow
21:48 < Napkin> not just "archery"
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22:08 < TGW> buff ogres by giving them an extra hat and an extra amulet at XL 7
22:09 <+greensnark> Your other head being controlled by the RNG, no doubt
22:10 <+greensnark> Someone already filed that under bad_ideas
22:10 < Eronarn> there have been a million terrible ogre FRs
22:10 < Eronarn> giving them an extra head
22:10 < Eronarn> letting them destroy walls with giant clubs
22:10 < Eronarn> letting them fart to attack enemies
22:10 < Vandal> Someone mentioned this once, but is there really a thief god in the works?
22:10 <+greensnark> Colouring them green too?
22:11 < TGW> oh, and double their int when they grow the second head
22:11 < syllogism> there's been some dicussion but it's not really "in the works"
22:11 < syllogism> it should double their int
22:11 <+greensnark> TGW: That would halve their int
22:11 < syllogism> oh beaten
22:11 < Vandal> I was just thinking as I tried this SpAs that there aren't any really obvious god choices
22:11 < TGW> did I just ninja syllogism by twelve seconds and an entire message
22:12 < TGW> vandal: okawaru
22:12 < eith> oka is king
22:12 < nrook> obvious god choices are bad, I think
22:12 < Vandal> Well oka or sif
22:12 < TGW> no, seriously, oka
22:12 < eith> no, just oka =p
22:12 < Vandal> I mean no gods that really fit the theme
22:12 <+greensnark> Ha, someone died to a bear simulacrum :P
22:12 < TGW> !lg * killer=~hydra simulacrum
22:12 < Vandal> Oka is the god of up front battle and cares about allies and crap
22:12 < Vandal> Assassins work alone
22:12 < Henzell> 5. deathshade the Severer (L20 HOPr), worshipper of Beogh, mangled by a four-headed hydra simulacrum on Crypt:3 on 2009-12-17, with 209137 points after 66015 turns and 9:54:58.
22:12 < syllogism> they hurt
22:12 < nrook> nemelex fits the theme of stabby characters! he just have no gameplay connection or significance to them.
22:12 < TGW> vandal: okawaru HATES allies
22:13 < TGW> mechanically
22:13 < Vandal> No he hates YOU for letting them die / killing them
22:13 < Vandal> because he likes them
22:13 <+sorear> greensnark: Oops!
22:13 < TGW> -> don't have any allies = hates allies
22:13 < Vandal> The closest I can think that fits thematically is Maklheb or something
22:14 < Vandal> And that is a stretch
22:14 < Vandal> none of the gods really evoke "cold blooded killer"
22:14 < TGW> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2889838&group_id=143991&atid=757516
22:14 < eith> Vandal: trog?
22:15 < TGW> eith: hot-blooded killer
22:15 < eith> true =p
22:16 < TGW> vandal: none of the races are reptilian except dr
22:16 < Vandal> Trog is about berserking, not sneaking
22:16 < Vandal> Bashing heads more than slitting throats
22:17 < TGW> see the FR, vandal
22:17 < eith> yea, the god is coming anyways, eventually ,but for the moment! oka or trog
22:17 < Vandal> I looked and I am turned off by the notion of a new kind of NPC that spawns just to do what you're doing
22:17 < MarvinPA> there's loads of ideas for assassin gods on the wiki i think
22:17 < eith> that was just one example vandal
22:17 < MarvinPA> and stealth gods
22:17 < MarvinPA> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:start
22:17 < TGW> eith: and the best!
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22:18 < Vandal> It looked like they put a lot of effort into it
22:18 < Vandal> whoever they were
22:19 < Vandal> The bounty idea is neat, but way too game-altering
22:19 < TGW> :\
22:19 < Vandal> Vehumet has a massive effect on Conjurers, but he doesn't change the entire game like this would
22:19 < MarvinPA> gods are all pretty game-altering though
22:20 < eith> nemelex is utterly game altering
22:20 < MarvinPA> jiyva is pretty massively game-altering in theory
22:20 < Vandal> nemelex is .. nemelex
22:20 < TGW> ely maybe
22:20 < eith> lugonu, very game changing
22:20 <+greensnark> syllogism is some kind of avatar of Nemelex
22:20 < Vandal> There are gods you pick because you're trying to win, and gods you pick because you're bored
22:20 < MarvinPA> although i've not used jiyva, i think people said it's possible to still have a safe stash
22:20 < TGW> hella conducts + alternative methods
22:20 < eith> look at what happen with the speed runs with lugonu
22:25 < Eronarn> jiyva rules
22:27 < Vandal> Are there any main ideas dpeg has mentioned wanting with a thief god?
22:28 < syllogism> there's probably a fr somewhere
22:29 < eith> he has points in the wiki
22:29 < Vandal> The Thief god page is proposing a god that rewards you for diving
22:29 < Vandal> Interesting concept
22:29 < eith> no, exploring
22:29 < Vandal> Well, avoiding combat
22:29 < MarvinPA> why would you not explore?
22:29 < Vandal> Exploring = fighting most of the time
22:30 < Eronarn> interesting thought - a thief god that gives you XP for each explored square, but loses some of that gain for each square noise is made in
22:31 < eith> thats cool
22:31 <+doy> i'm not sure how i feel about gods affecting how xp is gained
22:31 < Vandal> I'm not sure I am in favor of getting xp without interacting with monsters
22:31 < Vandal> I mean combat is the entire game
22:31 < Eronarn> doy: lugonu and ely already do this
22:31 < eith> dpeg is really pushing for it
22:32 < Napkin> omg.. of chaos brand in enemy hand can get you glowing in no time, huh?
22:32 < Vandal> pushing for xp without fighting?
22:32 < eith> yea
22:32 <+doy> Eronarn: how does lugonu do it?
22:32 < MarvinPA> what do you get exp for with lugonu?
22:32 < Eronarn> doy: half XP from things you banish
22:32 < Vandal> ely gives xp for healing, which is still combat
22:32 <+doy> hmmm
22:32 < Vandal> interaction
22:32 < Vandal> and banishing is still interaction
22:32 < Vandal> this is talking about avoiding combat entirely
22:32 < Eronarn> that's interaction too
22:32 < Eronarn> you have to avoid detection actively, not just passively
22:33 < eith> how is seeing a monster ,and then deciding to sneak a different way not interacting?
22:33 < Eronarn> this means responding to monsters
22:34 < Napkin> omg.. pleeease, take of chaos away from centaurs!
22:34 < Vandal> I'd have to hear what dpeg means
22:34 < Vandal> what is he really pushing for
22:34 < Vandal> Not sure I'm getting the right impression second hand
22:34 < Eronarn> testudines
22:35 < Vandal> I also think the Bounty Hunter has the right idea covering ranged and stealth
22:35 < eith> 3) xp per level could be X*p^2/50000 + X*min(p,30)/50 where p=piety upon entering the level, and X=total xp (of all hostile monsters upon enteriVandal: you read his points at the bottom of the wiki? he has a formula down there even for xp per level
22:36 < eith> bah =p
22:36 < eith> terrible pasting
22:36 < nrook> isn't lugonu the thief god
22:36 < Vandal> bottom of which wiki?
22:36 < eith> nah chaos god
22:36 < eith> the theif god wiki
22:36 < Vandal> oh ok
22:36 < nrook> go to a branch end, corrupt, steal everything in the chaos, run away
22:36 < nrook> sounds like a thief god to me!
22:40 < Eronarn> lugonu is *a* chaos god
22:40 < Eronarn> xom is also a chaos god, as is jiyva
22:40 < Eronarn> not sure if makhleb counts as one
22:41 < eith> well demons and stuff are pretty chaotic
22:41 < Vandal> He seemed more generically "evil" to me, like Satan kind of :o
22:41 < Vandal> Fire, brimstone, demons, yadayada
22:42 < eith> evil chaotic =p
22:42 <+doy> eith: demons are quite ordered
22:42 < eith> ah fair enough
22:42 <+doy> evil != chaotic
22:42 < eith> ah true, they have a heirarchy and all sure
22:42 < Vandal> Yeah you can be lawful evil!
22:42 < Eronarn> some demons are chaotic
22:42 < Eronarn> many are not
22:42 < Eronarn> Vandal: crawl doesn't do D&D alignments
22:42 < Vandal> I know that
22:43 < Vandal> It was a joke :/
22:44 < Vandal> Also I'm a little unsure right now, which is better to throw, generic daggers or generic darts?
22:45 < TGW> multiple types of demons should make formations
22:46 < eith> Vandal: probly better to ask in ##crawl
22:49 < Napkin>  Kirke points at you and mumbles some strange words.
22:49 < Napkin>  You have been turned into a pig!
22:49 < Napkin> oh come one.. seriously?!
22:49 <+greensnark> :P
22:50 <+greensnark> Napkin: Check '@' :P
22:50 < Napkin> AC0?
22:50 <+greensnark> You'll eventually go back to your old self :P
22:50 < Napkin> doooh...
22:50 < Napkin> haha :-P
22:51 < Napkin> luckily there was no other enemy around!
22:51 < Napkin> jesus!
22:51 < Napkin> next he slows me and i run into hydra and Nergalle?!
22:52 <+greensnark> She :P
22:52 < Napkin> That sausage was delicious!
22:52 < Napkin> even a swine can have taste :-P
22:52 <+greensnark> Hey, pigs are very smart animals!
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22:53 < Napkin> it's "note"-worthy btw, I think
22:55 < Napkin> swine again...
22:55 < Napkin> i will be a berserking swine now!
22:55 < Napkin> yes, swines wear amulets :-P
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23:01 < Napkin> Nabend dpeg!
23:01 <+sorear> dpeg!
23:01 <+sorear> He returns!
23:01 <@dpeg> Hello everyone
23:01  * dpeg goes into Messias mode.
23:02 < Napkin> seriously, guys.. as much as you all hate Okawaru... he has gifted me one glove, one axe, and like a million stones and darts
23:02 <@dpeg> gotta nerf Okawaru
23:02 <@dpeg> well, better destroy and rebuild
23:04 < Napkin> only way for me to get some reasonable protection to see more of the game than just swamp, snakes, vault and zot, dpeg ;)
23:04 <@dpeg> Napkin: there are more gods!
23:05 < Napkin> and?
23:05 <+greensnark> Hey, everyone, dpeg just approved testudines!
23:05 <@dpeg> greensnark: there was a condition! 
23:05 <@dpeg> oh, the fine print
23:05 < Napkin> how do they help me survive in those nerd-branches? :-P
23:05 <+greensnark> dpeg: I accept!
23:06 <@dpeg> greensnark: --> ##crawl for formal treaties
23:06 <@dpeg> also, we still have to convince the rest :)
23:06 <@dpeg> Napkin: which ones?
23:06 <+sorear> Napkin: how much did the one glove and one axe help you?
23:06 <@dpeg> ely helps everywhere, for example
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23:07 < Napkin> i would still be using a hand-axe +2,+2 as XL14 char
23:07 < TGW> greensnark: OH MY GOD
23:07 <+sorear> What kind of axe?
23:07 < TGW> :D
23:07 <+sorear> Penguin-grade?
23:07 < Napkin> apart from the cursed orcish war-axe -1,-3
23:07 < Napkin> or battleaxe with axe skill at 12
23:10 < Napkin> dpeg: actually, just anything. i've been told there is more than dungeon, orcish mines, elven hall, swamp, shoals, snakes, slime pit (which i never play), hive, vault, crypt, tombs (which i never play again) ;)
23:10 <@dpeg> hey, Tomb <3
23:10 < Napkin> i had life+++ and holy wraths weapon -> dead
23:11 < Napkin> I had life+++ and dispell undead at full power -> dead
23:11 < Vandal> What is testudines?
23:11 <@dpeg> Makhleb, Lugonu, Elyvilon and (a bit less) Yredelemnul are very versatile gods
23:11 <@dpeg> Vandal: an old world for turtles
23:11 < Napkin> mahkleb is nice, agreed
23:11 <@dpeg> some Crawl devs are suckers for turtles
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23:11 < Vandal> What does that mean to the game?
23:11 <@dpeg> Napkin: I did Tomb with a melee NaFi (no allies) :P
23:11 < Napkin> but higher daemons always turn towards me (even with invocations >= 11) in the right moment
23:12 <@dpeg> superstition!
23:12 <@dpeg> also: get them earlier, not just on the oh-shit moment
23:12 < Napkin> heh? you mean running around with them?
23:13 <@dpeg> allies are a very good means to kill the mummies because you avoid the curses
23:13 < Napkin> doesn't matter when those summoning mummies get you
23:13 < Napkin> or torment you
23:14 < Napkin> nah, i can't play there
23:14 < Napkin> and i'm sure as hell not going to risk another char there
23:14 <@dpeg> Napkin: hehe, too weak for Tomb :P
23:14 < ogaz> the worst part about tomb is the sphinx pack
23:15 < Napkin> no fun, sorry
23:15 <@dpeg> Napkin: some love it
23:15 <@dpeg> and the loot... oh, the loot
23:15 < nrook> wait, some love the tomb?
23:15 <@dpeg> it's worth all the decay and rotting and cursing
23:16 < nrook> it's a brilliant branch and I'm glad it's in the game, but it's terrifying to go through
23:16 <@dpeg> nrook: yes, that's why it is one of the cool branches
23:16 < ogaz> I like doing Tomb, although it can take forever
23:16 < Napkin> 1 out of my 100 chars makes it to be able to get there - and the last tries all died
23:16 <+sorear> I like tomb, I don't visit it most games
23:16 <@dpeg> sorear: sure
23:16 < Napkin> just no sense to go there
23:16 <+sorear> it's nasty, and I like it that way
23:16 <@dpeg> Napkin: Tomb is not for every character
23:17 <@dpeg> but next time you have Kikubaaqughda, try it again :)
23:17 < Napkin> i would never get there with a char that choses kiku
23:17 < Napkin> so.. it's just out of the question ;)
23:17 < nrook> I tried to skip most of tomb using lee's rapid deconstruction on my current game
23:17 <@dpeg> Napkin: you misunderstand Kiku :)
23:17 <+sorear> 14:19 < Sticking> A merfolk, wielding 7 spears.
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23:18 < nrook> it just alerted all of the mummies and didn't get me anywhere, however
23:18 < Napkin> i think I misunderstand the whole game ;)
23:18 <@dpeg> sorear: what happened?
23:18 <@dpeg> do these merge now? :(
23:18 < ogaz> Napkin: I just did Tomb with kiku an hour ago, not a single death curse
23:18 <+sorear> dpeg: probably a bug introduced when Napkin was giving merfolk throwing spears
23:18 <+sorear> dpeg: throwing weapons have always merged in monster inventories
23:19 < Napkin> I was?
23:19 <+sorear> since monsters only have one throwable slot
23:19 <@dpeg> sorear: ok
23:20 <+greensnark> Actually it's a "feature", but the messages produced can be better
23:20 <@dpeg> yes, of course
23:20 <+greensnark> Monsters can carry throwables in either primary or alt slot
23:20 <+greensnark> And they can also wield them
23:20 <+greensnark> They used to carry throwing weapons in the missile slot, but that was changed at some point
23:27 < Napkin> well, i give up. g'night
23:27 <@dpeg> nights!
23:29 <@dpeg> !tell Napkin Also, Tomb:3 *always* has at least one very good axe.
23:29 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let Napkin know.
23:31 <+greensnark> Hah, trucutru's Ilsuiw fight is hilarious
23:31 <@dpeg> still going on?
23:32 <+greensnark> Yes :P
23:32 <+greensnark> She used Call Tide <3
23:32 <@dpeg> watching now
23:33 <+greensnark> She's pretty aggressive with the invis :P
23:33 <@dpeg> that is good
23:33 <+due> Hi
23:34 <@dpeg> Hello!
23:34 <+due> dpeg! :)
23:34 <+greensnark> Aww :/
23:34 <+greensnark> Hey due!
23:34 <+due> Hi snark which is green!
23:34 <+greensnark> due: trucutru v Ilsuiw <3 <3 <3
23:34 <+greensnark> And you should make Mara appear earlier :)
23:34 <+due> Yeah, he will.
23:35 <+greensnark> Sticking overprepared disgustingly and went in hasted and invis
23:35 <+due> I may get a chance to do some coding tonight. :)
23:35 <+greensnark> And Mara didn't do anything :/
23:35 <+due> :|
23:35 <@dpeg> such players should get the Cheating prefix from Henzell
23:35 <@dpeg> Sticking, the cheating and farming Human finally entered Zot:1.
23:36 <+due> :))
23:36 <@dpeg> cheating and farming == sub
23:36 <@dpeg> Sticking, the subhuman finally entered Zot:1.
23:36 <@dpeg> not acceptable, of course
23:37 <+due> :)
23:37 <@dpeg> but true!
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23:55 < Vandal> dpeg, do you need any more people on the sneak god topic, or do you think you've got enough good ideas to make something? 
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23:57 <@dpeg> Vandal: I think there is enough content for a god
23:57 <+sorear> greensnark: Besides the .dsc stuff, what else in Crawl could benefit from using a proper database?
23:57 <@dpeg> but it needs some preliminaries: piety from exploration (rather than waiting) for the good gods.
23:58 <@dpeg> !seen Eronarn 
23:58 < Henzell> I last saw Eronarn at Tue Jan  5 21:42:50 2010 UTC (1h 15m 16s ago) saying Vandal: crawl doesnt do D&D alignments on ##crawl-dev.
23:58 < Vandal> Yeah
23:58 <+greensnark> sorear: Saves and maps are the most important things I can think of