00:00 < Eronarn> dpeg: it's pretty productive at times - did you see everything that got done with rods? Less than 30 hours to do that.
00:00 < Eronarn> From when it was filed on Mantis
00:00 < cbus> wtf, deep elves in dungeon
00:00 <+doy> Eronarn: well... i'm still not entirely convinced that kind of speed is necessarily a good thing
00:01 <@dpeg> no, sometimes it causes a lot of trouble
00:01 < Eronarn> doy: it certainly needs to be reviewed by people, but i think it's good because it lets things just be tested instead of arguing about them - and in this case it's not the kind of change that can completely break the game (e.g., changing AC)
00:01 <+doy> those rod changes really should have gone into a branch
00:01 <@dpeg> often, it's best to propose the agreement on Mantis or the mailing list -- wait at least one day and only proceed after that
00:02 <@dpeg> doy: yes, and that
00:02 <+doy> because they do change they way rods work pretty fundamentally
00:02 <@dpeg> but in the case of rods I don't think any damage was done
00:02 < Ashenzari> Shaft traps blocking autoexplore (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=320) by LordSloth
00:02 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-180-137.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:02 < Eronarn> dpeg: well, the DD/rod interaction at low levels is a bit problematic
00:03 <@dpeg> yes, I saw
00:03 < Eronarn> too easy for them to get very highly enchanted rods early
00:04 <@dpeg> Eronarn: well, at least they pay with something
00:04 < TGW> I'm not positive that's a problem with rods
00:05 <@dpeg> yes, I would just wait
00:05 < Eronarn> it's not really a problem with either DD or rods
00:05 < Eronarn> it's just an interaction between them
00:05 < Eronarn> it may not even need fixing... yes, they're good, but it's not like we're nerfing axes or MD because MD with axes are amazing
00:05 <@dpeg> yes
00:06 < Eronarn> it would be a funny race for tutorials, though - to introduce the concept of long-term planning
00:06 < Napkin> ah, so it'll work with greedy_item in explore_stop, dpeg 
00:06 <@dpeg> Eronarn: don't! You have to walk first.
00:06 <@dpeg> Napkin: good
00:07 < Eronarn> dpeg: i mean, a tutorial specific for that. there was talk of revamping tutorials
00:07 < Eronarn> since they just end
00:07 < Eronarn> before you even get to a rune
00:07 < Napkin> the weird thing is (bug, I mean): 0.5.2 config states that explore_stop has greedy_item by default, while it actually has greedy_pickup (which stops _after_ picking up instead of when the item comes into view)
00:07 <@dpeg> Eronarn: yes, but we did that on purpose. The aim of the tutorials is to teach the interface in a painless way -- not to be a walkthrough, or a tactical (let alone strategical) guide.
00:08 < Eronarn> ah
00:08 <@dpeg> Napkin: so docs bug
00:08 < Vandal> oh, dpeg, did you see my Halfling page too?
00:08 < Eronarn> funnily enough i never used the tutorial at all
00:08 < Vandal> One of the ideas got implemented today
00:08 <@dpeg> Vandal: yes, I see everything :)
00:08 <@dpeg> yes, the shields
00:08 <@dpeg> an attempt to keep them alive :P
00:08 < Vandal> Anything else on that you like?
00:10 < Napkin> hmm, not sure it's just a docu bug - i would have to take a closer look and play 0.5.2 again myself with unmodified config.
00:10 <@dpeg> Vandal: the hp one, perhaps. And the no-shoes bit could be interesting.
00:11 < Vandal> Someone else brought up a good point too that Chei is not a bad god for Halflings
00:11 < Mu_> does anybody know if anything is still happening with the radiant cavern portal vault? i haven't seen lamil in a while
00:11 < Napkin> more feedback: skill screen needs better description at the bottom, that when you select a skill it'll try to train it less. He understood the other way around. Plants in Tiles look very similar to Hydras :D
00:11 < Vandal> His bonus combined with their racial metabolism gives them 1
00:11 <@dpeg> Mu_: no idea
00:11 < Vandal> So they'd be good piety builders on him
00:12 <@dpeg> Napkin: feedback not here. It just flushes down the drain!
00:12 < Napkin> yes sir!
00:12 < Ashenzari> Replace Hell up stairs with portals to the Vestibule (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=321) by Eronarn
00:13 <@dpeg> isn't there a collected stairs wiki page?
00:13 <@dpeg> hm, perhaps not
00:14 < Eronarn> not yet
00:14 < Vandal> Does a shield + EV melee race exist?
00:14 < Eronarn> (i actually have read every wiki page!)
00:14 < Eronarn> !apt sh
00:14 < Henzell> Could not understand "sh"
00:14 < Eronarn> !apt shield
00:14 <@dpeg> Eronarn: okay, so it is still on FR
00:14 < Henzell> Shields: Dr=100, Dr[black]=100, Ce=180*, DD=90, DE=140, DG=110, DS=110, Gh=110, Dr[green]=100, Dr[grey]=100, Ha=130, HE=110, HO=80, Hu=100, Ke=100, Ko=130, Mf=100, Mi=80, Dr[mottled]=100, MD=70!, Mu=140, Na=140, Og=120, Dr[pale]=100, Dr[purple]=100, Dr[red]=100, SE=130, Sp=180*, Tr=150, Vp=110, Dr[white]=100, Dr[yellow]=100
00:15 < cbus> I still get the "You feel drained" message from boris as a ghoul
00:15 < TGW> vandal: not a small one, at least
00:15 < TGW> mf has 100 shields
00:15 < Eronarn> Ke or Dr can do it
00:15 <@dpeg> Mf perhaps
00:15 <@dpeg> and Ha in trunk
00:15 < Eronarn> i think vp have good dodging too
00:15 < TGW> !apt vp dodging
00:15 < Henzell> Vp (SK_DODGING)=90
00:15 < Vandal> Ok so it isn't a super common thing
00:15 < TGW> eh, 90's not that good
00:16 < Eronarn> spriggans are great with bucklers, funnily enough
00:16 < TGW> and mf uses pla so I don't imagine it happens as much
00:16 < Eronarn> they're so good at dodging that not being as good with shields doesn't matter
00:16 < Eronarn> because any amount of extra blocking helps
00:16 < Eronarn> TGW: trident+shield is what i always go for on merfolk actually
00:16 < Vandal> I was wondering how badly the Corona effect from TSO would hurt a Halfling Pa now that they're good with bucklers
00:17 < Eronarn> tso should really lose the backlit thing :/
00:17 <@dpeg> why?
00:17 < Vandal> I don't see why the halo can't only apply to bad guys
00:17 < Eronarn> dpeg: it's just a random nerf to EV races
00:17 <@dpeg> not random
00:17 < Vandal> and yeah, it makes it seem like TSO doesn't want you if you can't wear plate
00:18 < Siber> Maybe TSO doesn't want you if you can't wear plate.
00:18 < Eronarn> Siber: which would be silly
00:18 <@dpeg> but everybody agree that seeing unseen horrors with TSO is good?
00:18 < Siber> Dodging is for sneaky bastards.
00:18 < Eronarn> dpeg: yes, i mean just the halo effect on the player
00:18 < Eronarn> fine with it nerfing stealth, say
00:19 < TGW> I think preventing player invisibility and stealth is neat
00:19 < Eronarn> it should not make the player easier to hit though
00:19 < TGW> dodging seems unfortunate, but ehh
00:19 < Vandal> Yeah that is the only part that really bugs me
00:19 < Eronarn> TGW: "it's so bright you're hard to hit"
00:19 <@dpeg> Eronarn: the player can also hit monsters easier
00:19 < TGW> eronarn: hurr
00:19 < Eronarn> dpeg: combat is not symmetrical, it is a lot worse for the player if he gets hit easier
00:19 < Vandal> I get it, that TSO doesn't want you being sneaky and stabbing things
00:19 <@dpeg> so they can use bigger weapons earlier, at least that's the plan
00:19 <@dpeg> Vandal: yes, it goes well with the conduct
00:20 < Vandal> dpeg I always thought that the real barrier to using bigger weapons was attack delay
00:20 <@dpeg> I don't really see the problem, in particular since there are three good gosd
00:20 < nrook> how strong is the effect, exactly? I played a halfling EV character with TSO in endgame and didn't die too much
00:20 < Eronarn> nrook: corona is pretty strong - and now it helps ranged attacks vs. you (it didn't used to)
00:20 <@dpeg> nrook: obviously not so strong? :)
00:20 <@dpeg> Eronarn: but: shield
00:20 < TGW> oh god
00:20 < nrook> Eronarn: well, that's what deflect yaktaurs is for
00:20 < TGW> can we not colour shapeshifter flesh yellow?
00:20 < TGW> 'cause I just blurred my vision
00:21 <@dpeg> TGW: it is coloured already?!
00:21 < Eronarn> dpeg: yes, i like the shield ability, but AC-users can use that ability, too
00:21 < TGW> dpeg: it's supposed to be magenta or whatever
00:21 < Eronarn> nrook: overused spell that doesn't need any more encouragement, plus, it works by raising effective EV
00:21 <@dpeg> TGW: yes. Your corpse wasn't?
00:21 < TGW> carnivorous races have it coloured as yellow
00:21 <@dpeg> ah
00:22 < Eronarn> dpeg: also - the problem is it seems like a totally arbitrary penalty. i am not against, say, TSO not being as good for summoners because you can't summon demons
00:22 < Eronarn> this makes sense
00:22 < Eronarn> TSO making you easier to hit is silly/weird/non-intuitive
00:22 < Eronarn> and goes directly against his shield power of making you harder to hit, to boot
00:23 < Vandal> Yes, what is the point of 2 powers cancelling each other out?
00:23 <@dpeg> okay, taking out the expletations, as usual
00:23 <@dpeg> aren't you just arguing for more symmetry in monster vs player corona?
00:23 < TGW> how much does corona do on monsters, anyway?
00:24 < Eronarn> no, i'm arguing that corona is inherently more harmful for the player than for monsters
00:24 < TGW> someone was crunching numbers for +0 versus +9 weapons and it wasn't very impressive
00:24 < Vandal> TGW I think +1-9 hit
00:24 < Eronarn> corona as a status effect needs some tweaks, but this is a separate issue
00:24 < Eronarn> TGW: it has a huge boost to low acc effects like bolt of inacc
00:24 < TGW> fair enough
00:25 < Eronarn> dpeg: specifically: corona won't help you that much vs. most monsters, but all monsters benefit a lot from corona on you if you're an EV char vs. not much if at all if you're an AC
00:25 < Eronarn> and you can generally only gain the corona benefit once per round vs. monsters
00:26 < Eronarn> but any number of monsters can gain the corona benefit against you
00:26 <@dpeg> so the god comes with a liability
00:26 <+due> hi
00:26 < Henzell> due: You have 5 messages. Use !messages to read them.
00:26 <+due> dpeg!
00:26 < Vandal> He already has more restrictions than any other god iirc
00:26 <+due> Whoa, five messages.
00:26 < Eronarn> i am not saying gods shouldn't have liabilities - i like the stealth/invis/no-stabbing - but that this particular liability is not an interesting tradeoff
00:27 < TGW> 1tell due that's a lot of messages
00:27 <@dpeg> due: Hi!
00:27  * due beats TGW with a stick.
00:27 < Vandal> No poison, no evil weapons, basically no using confusion, EH, or Meph Cloud
00:27 <+due> greensnark: I can't do it, you'll need to get elly or dpeg  to do so.
00:27 <+due> haranp, hi!!!
00:27 <@dpeg> due: Haran already got it.
00:27 <+due> Oh, good :)
00:28 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v haranp] by ChanServ
00:28 < Vandal> Ranged weapons are also fairly weakened by TSO as you almost never get the drop on things
00:28 <+due> Though this is improved now as your halo is basically auto-hit, not?
00:28 <+due> *no?
00:29 < Vandal> Actually it is kind of funny, he makes ranged weapons better for enemies than for you
00:29 < Eronarn> due: it helps most when you have low skill
00:29 <+due> Interesting.
00:29 < Eronarn> it's definitely not auto-hit
00:29 <@dpeg> Eronarn says no, but I wouldn't want to change TSO for 0.6. Zin on the other hand...
00:30 <+haranp> hi due
00:30 <+haranp> I'm not really here :)
00:30 < Eronarn> dpeg: also, note that EV chars already will have the penalty of being unable to use stealth, something that almost always goes hand in hand with them
00:30 < TGW> is the massive chunksplosion supposed to make multiple stacks of chunks?
00:30 < Vandal> due I did some play testing while you were asleep :D
00:30 <+due> :( Well, better than never being here ever!
00:30 < TGW> they don't combine or anything, I don't know if that's the same way it's always worked
00:30 < Eronarn> so it's really that EV characters have two penalties
00:31 < Eronarn> one of these seems fine, but two seems unnecessarily punitive for no clear flavor reason
00:31 < Vandal> Maybe he is secretly racist against small races :o
00:31 < Eronarn> TGW: them not stacking is known and a bug
00:31 < TGW> ok
00:31 <+due> It's not a bug.
00:31 < TGW> oh ok
00:31 <+due> I asked sorear about it.
00:32 < Eronarn> due: is it a "feature"? :P
00:32 <+due> Eronarn: Drop one of a stack of chunks in your inventory, then pick it up again.
00:34 -!- haranp [n=haranp@c-98-248-38-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"]
00:42 <@dpeg> going soon
00:43 <@dpeg> if you think you can improve spell hunger feedback or TSO, take it ti a Mantis item
00:43 < Eronarn> dpeg: should be a good batch of new DS muts when you get back. If sorear sees them before you do, should he start implementing so they can be tested or wait on feedback from you?
00:44 <@dpeg> Eronarn: yes, I saw some new ones
00:44 <@dpeg> I will reply on them soon enouh
00:44 <@dpeg> He could also start with my ones :P
00:44 < Eronarn> oh, i thought he'd done them already
00:45 <@dpeg> no, not nearly all of them
00:45 <@dpeg> I'd helped him by listing those which I think are unproblematic (e.g. the spiny one would be very good)
00:45 < TGW> who wants to start the spell hunger FR?
00:46 <+kilobyte> if chunks have the same age, they should stack IMO
00:46 < Eronarn> dpeg: here's a question: say we have your fire I and II, and my hellfire, which would normally be contradictory/overlapping. What about adding temporary special checks to not mutate them both? That way not all the mutations need to play nice with all of the other ones, and we can cull the ones reported as least liked by testers
00:46 <+kilobyte> or very close ages
00:46 < Eronarn> (Like, the multiple stealth mutation proposals)
00:47 <+due> @??iron golem
00:47 < Gretell> iron golem (8) | Speed: 7 | HD: 15 | Health: 105-165 | AC/EV: 15/3 | Damage: 35 | Flags: non-living, see invisible | Res: magic(immune), fire+++, cold+++, elec+++, poison+++ | XP: 916.
00:47 <@dpeg> Eronarn: yes
00:48 < Eronarn> i wonder why iron golems aren't slower
00:53 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit ["zzz"]
00:55 < Vandal> Can gods / acquirement give you items you can't use? Like Javilins to a Small race?
00:56 < TGW> no acquirement can
00:56 < Vandal> Will gods?
00:58 < Mu_> xom might
00:58 -!- Eifeltrampel [n=roca@dslb-084-063-083-238.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left ##crawl-dev []
00:58 < Vandal> Will Oka?
00:58 < Mu_> no
00:58 < Vandal> ok good :)
01:00 < TGW> oka just acquires things for you
01:00 < Vandal> ?
01:00 < Vandal> So he can give you stuff you can't use?
01:00 < Eronarn> ...no
01:00 < Eronarn> 18:58 < TGW> no acquirement can
01:01 < Vandal> Ah ok, got it now
01:05 <+due> I need to look into that
01:05 < Napkin> hey, moin due!
01:05 <+due> Hi Napkin!
01:05  * due not reaaaally here. :)
01:05 < Napkin> How's it going?
01:05 < Napkin> ahhh :D
01:06 <+due> Good! In a rush
01:06 < Napkin> hehe, gogogo :)
01:09 < TGW> <3 sorear for fast uglies
01:12 < Ashenzari> Don't recolour mutagenic flesh with carnivore mutation (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=322) by TGW
01:19 <+sorear> anything worth reading in the scrollback?
01:19 < Henzell> sorear: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
01:20 <+sorear> woah, Haran was here
01:20 <+sorear> !messages
01:20 < Henzell> (1/1) Eronarn said (2h 53m 43s ago): The rod stuff works great, but I think it is too powerful in the case of DDAr. The racial recharge means they can easily get a +5 weapon in the first few dlvls.
01:23 < TGW> new shoals are beautiful, who did that?
01:23 <+doy> greensnark
01:23 <+doy> (:
01:23 < TGW> :)
01:25 < TGW> oh my god the tide is so cool
01:28 < Eronarn> sorear: random things from scrollback: ds muts, tso corona, apt changes to use a level system, spell hunger display, death cobs
01:28 -!- |eith| is now known as eith
01:28 < Eronarn> probably not worth reading but if there's anything from the above you want to know i can provide the key points
01:29 < nrook> as someon who saw half of it I can say none of it is worth reading honestly
01:29 < nrook> (actually I didn't see Ero's ds muts, those might be cool)
01:30 < Eronarn> nrook: those are on the wiki though
01:30 < Eronarn> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:demonspawn#full_implementations
01:30 < Eronarn> the jiyva mutations are cooler though
01:31 < Eronarn> so go read them and give feedback!!1oneoneone
01:31 < Eronarn> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:jiyva#slime_mutations
01:32 < Eronarn> "You are totally covered in giant eyeballs."
01:32 < nrook> my feedback to your jiyva mutations is pretty much the same as TGW's :p
01:35 <+sorear> Well, I'm going to catch up on the wiki anyways
01:35 <+sorear> As the person who buffed Corona I'd be interested in hearing about that
01:37 < Eronarn> sorear: proposal is to make corona not apply to the TSOite because there's no flavor reason to make it harder to dodge while worshiping TSO
01:37 < TGW> javelineers are completely ridiculous :\
01:37 < Eronarn> this would also apply to holy monsters with TSO halos
01:39 < nrook> so if you cast corona on someone with a TSO halo, they become easier to hit
01:39 < nrook> hmm
01:39 < Eronarn> nrook: no
01:39 < Eronarn> 'This change would also apply to holy monsters with TSO halos. Any such creature would be glowing brightly enough that being lit doesn't help in hitting it at all (even if further light effects such as Corona or Fedhas' sunlight are used).'
01:40 < nrook> oh ok
01:40 < nrook> still, that seems odd
01:40 < Eronarn> nrook: we can change the lit status message for them if needed
01:41 < Eronarn> "Its bright glow hurts your eyes."
01:43 < nrook> that makes sense, but might imply that they should get an EV buff instead
01:43 < nrook> the idea is a good one, though, despite my ambivalence
01:44 <+sorear> Eronarn: there actually is a flavor reason for the halo, dpeg explained it to me- if Dodging is useless, people won't use its twin Stealth
01:44 <+sorear> TGW: ridiculous is good!
01:45 < TGW> sorear: can it at least pretend to be in line with swamp?
01:45 < TGW> I was doing fine, killed the kraken without incident, yaktaurs etc
01:45 < nrook> perhaps swamp needs a buff then :)
01:45 < TGW> and then a javelineer comes and boom I'm at no hp
01:45 <+sorear> there isn't "the" kraken
01:45 <+sorear> there are like ten of them
01:45 < TGW> a kraken
01:45 < TGW> the one kraken that I saw
01:46 <+sorear> s/swamp worm/swamp wyrm/, breathes miasma
01:46 <+sorear> good?
01:46 <+doy> what
01:46 < TGW> if by "miasma" you mean "javelins"
01:46 < TGW> then yes
01:46 < nrook> sorear: haha
01:46 < TGW> @??merfolk javelineer
01:46 < Gretell> merfolk javelineer (m) | Speed: 10 (msl: 80%) | HD: 13 | Health: 65-91 | AC/EV: 0/15 | Damage: 16, 17 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(69) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1210.
01:46 < TGW> why does it attack fast?
01:46 < TGW> go have a conversation with eronarn
01:46  * sorear mourns the javenineer nerf
01:46 < Eronarn> sorear: that's ridiculous
01:47 < TGW> ha!
01:47 < Eronarn> no
01:47 < Eronarn> i mean dpeg's explanation is ridiculous
01:47 <+sorear> they used to have msl 60%, and 18 HD for 50% more missile damage
01:47 < Eronarn> javelineers are fine
01:47 < TGW> oh
01:47 < TGW> but they attack fast bro
01:48 < Ashenzari> TSO's corona should not make the player easier to hit (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=323) by Eronarn
01:48 < Eronarn> TGW: i'm fine with things attacking fast - the player can
01:48 < Eronarn> just, it should be used carefully
01:48 < Eronarn> not tossed on every other monster
01:49 < Eronarn> so guys what do you think the odds are that lemuel disagrees with making TSO halo not kill dodging
01:49 < Eronarn> i think it's pretty high
01:49 <+doy> probably
01:49 <+doy> (:
01:50 <+kilobyte> well, it makes TSO even more a no-brainer for the full game
01:51 <+sorear> I wonder
01:51 <+sorear> @?? ugly thing
01:51 < Gretell> purple ugly thing (u) | Speed: 9-11 | HD: 8 | Health: 33-57 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 13(disease) | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(32) | Chunks: mutagenic | XP: 314.
01:51 < Eronarn> that's really a problem with TSO being too overspecialized
01:51 <+sorear> oh, not updated
01:51 <+kilobyte> once you get the living branches (where he sucks), he's insanely better than any other god
01:51 <+kilobyte> s/get the/get past the/
01:51 <+sorear> we need less evil endgame branches
01:51 < mr0t> heh
01:51 <+kilobyte> Slime is the only non-evil one
01:51 < mr0t> and maybe replace or add an evil branch in the early game
01:52 <+doy> kilobyte: and slime is only vaguely "endgame"
01:52 < nrook> Slime isn't really harder than Vaults
01:52 < TGW> I'm all for an early evil branch
01:52 < Vandal> The main issue with self corona is that it makes TSO very unfriendly to people who don't wear heavy armor
01:52 < TGW> like all of the 5s are just popcorn by the time you see any of them
01:53 < Eronarn> TGW: Phobos Base
01:53 < mr0t> we seen Minitomb, how about Minihell or Minipan
01:53 < mr0t> heh
01:53 < nrook> we could put a demonic rune in minipan, actually
01:54 <+kilobyte> miniD:1
01:54 < Eronarn> nrook: i don't like that idea
01:54 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-114-135-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Connection timed out]
01:54 < Eronarn> kilobyte: dude, i had a minidungeon vault idea. just a bunch of zig-zags like: |-|_|-|
01:54 < TGW> ...then what?
01:54 < Eronarn> each colored like a different dungeon level or branch, wiht appropriate monsters
01:54 < TGW> !
01:55 < nrook> Eronarn: or are you thinking earlier as in earlier than swamp/snake, not enough to justify a rune vault?
01:55 < TGW> holy shit yes
01:55 < TGW> do you mind if I make something like that?
01:55 < Eronarn> the bottom is a zot orb chamber with an "orb of zot" orb of fire with alternate spells/HP/HD via lua
01:55 < Eronarn> TGW: not at all
01:55 < TGW> do you mean like early?
01:56 < Eronarn> nrook: i don't think that we should add any non-guaranteed runes, as in, there should always be the same number accessible via branches/etc.
01:56 <+kilobyte> but not necessarily the same
01:56 < Eronarn> note that i am not opposed to adding some guaranteed runes
01:56 < Eronarn> but that the zot entry req would need to go up
01:56 < TGW> kilobyte, where were you going to put the forest thing?
01:56 < Eronarn> like: a new rune branch done around XL 10, but zot now takes 4 runes to get in
01:56 <+kilobyte> TGW: deep D, 20-23ish
01:57 < TGW> ok
01:57 <+kilobyte> Eronarn: I strongly think Snake and Swamp should lose their runes
01:57 < nrook> Eronarn: fair enough.
01:57 < nrook> kilobyte: this is a good idea
01:57 <+kilobyte> Eronarn: or, Zot to require >3 runes, which is equivalent
01:57 < Eronarn> kilobyte: i'd be fine with swamp losing its rune, not snake though
01:58 < nrook> by the time anyone cares about getting into zot swamp and snake are both moderately easy
01:58 <+kilobyte> Snake has no loot except for normally generated items
01:58 < Eronarn> random idea: the "minipan" branch can have portal vaults at the end
01:58 < Eronarn> if you wait too long to clear it
01:58 < Eronarn> they become hell portals
01:58 < nrook> the rune completely fails at giving a reason to go into either, and I think snake would do much better with actual loot instead
01:58 < Eronarn> so sure, you can come back later and wreck it but you lose out on whatever the portals were
01:59 < TGW> eronarn: so like, an orc room -> lair room -> hive room etc?
01:59 < Eronarn> nrook: i like the idea of snake being a big guardian naga/serpent vault at the end
01:59 < Eronarn> TGW: yeah
01:59 < TGW> hmm
01:59 < Eronarn> TGW: like a cut-away view of the dungeon from the side
02:00 < TGW> :P
02:00 < Eronarn> diagonal lines between branches = dungeon going up/down
02:00 < Eronarn> hells are a tiny room with four doors leading to four closets
02:01 < Eronarn> ..oh holy shit
02:01 < Eronarn> you could use due's teleporter vault
02:01 < Eronarn> and have miniportals to minihell
02:01 < nrook> hahaha
02:01 < nrook> this sounds like the best level ever
02:01 < nrook> is there a compelling reason why dancing weapons get mad if you attack them?
02:01 < Eronarn> no
02:02 < nrook> they're enchanted by you, you should be able to control them
02:02 < Eronarn> minitomb should use an even smaller version of that one ossuary minitomb:3 layout
02:04 <+kilobyte> TGW: you could even make that vault mandatory, by placing downstairs in one of later "branches"
02:05 < TGW> kilobyte: hurr
02:05 <+kilobyte> TGW: we totally fail to use encompass levels
02:06 <+kilobyte> River Lethe feels more like a poor-man's portal vault that simply was done before the concept appeared
02:06 <+kilobyte> (even though it rocks)
02:07 < Eronarn> lethe could come back as a portal vault
02:07 < Eronarn> incl. amnesia
02:07 <+doy> yeah, really, random encompass levels should go
02:07 <+doy> and be turned into portal vaults
02:07 < nrook> I like encompass levels, they give D:20-27 character :(
02:08 < Eronarn> i like the fortress-style encompass levels
02:08 < Eronarn> those can be fun as hell
02:08 <+doy> well, if we go for the "shrinking levels as you go deeper" thing for D, they'll feel quite a bit out of place
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02:08 < Eronarn> doy: no, can just use smaller vaults for the same effect :)
02:09 < Eronarn> like D:27 = only the drac fortress, nothing else
02:09 < TGW> I never played lethe, how was that?
02:10 < Eronarn> TGW: amnesia traps everywhere
02:11 < TGW> I gathered
02:18 < Eronarn> oh man
02:18 < Eronarn> zot could have a death popcorn in it. just one
02:19 < TGW> @??orb of fire
02:19 < Gretell> orb of fire (*) | Speed: 20 | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 20/20 | Flags: non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(immune), hellfire+++, cold, elec++, poison+++ | XP: 11717 | Sp: b.fire, polymorph other, fireball.
02:19 < TGW> that will be problematic
02:19 < TGW> does it recalculate exp?
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02:20 < TGW> 'cause I can give it throw flame and like 2 HD
02:20 < TGW> but getting 12k exp pretty much would break everything
02:21 < Eronarn> TGW: as a reward for clearing it? not necessarily
02:21 < Eronarn> but i'm pretty sure droppin the HD drops XP, too
02:22 < TGW> @??death cob
02:22 < Gretell> death cob (%) | Speed: 25 | HD: 10 | Health: 40-90 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 20 | Flags: undead, evil | Res: magic(40), cold, poison | XP: 1272.
02:22 < TGW> 20 damage would be a problem
02:22 < ogaz> HD is definitely part of exp, compare killer klowns to electric golems
02:23 < TGW> I mean in vaults
02:23 < TGW> if you change the HD, does it change the experience?
02:29 < TGW> what colour are lair walls/floor
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02:32 < Eronarn> brown walls green floor
02:32 < Eronarn> i think
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02:43 < Ashenzari> Add monster glyph to the ?/ monster lookup (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=324) by LordSloth
02:44 < Eronarn> wow, what the WTF
02:44 < Eronarn> i just found a D:1 vault with 3 spellbooks behinf a secret door
02:44 <+doy> yup
02:45 <+doy> apparently those are relatively common
02:45 < TGW> those are awesome
02:45 < Eronarn> that really needs to go
02:45 < TGW> you really need to go
02:46 < Eronarn>  s - a book of Cantrips
02:46 < Eronarn>  t - a book of Stalking
02:46 < Eronarn>  u - a book of Spatial Translocations
02:46 < Eronarn> finding this on d1 is so absurdly broken
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02:49 < Vandal> that depends, you might not even have spellcasting, and finding those won't give you it :P
02:50 < TGW> we should make an equivalent vault with GDA and execs
02:50 < TGW> it's not broken because some people are spellcasters
02:50 < Eronarn> Vandal: spellcasting is trivial to raise
02:52 < nrook> we should make an equivalent vault with golden dragons and executioners
02:52 <+due> What's wrong with books + floor god?
02:52 <+due> And it's "Supply closet" vault.
02:52 < nrook> anyway a bunch of nice stuff in the early game isn't really gamebreaking
02:53 <+due> You usually die before you can take advantage of it.
02:53 < Eronarn> nrook: even one spellbook early game is "nice stuff", though
02:53 < nrook> it's just a fun bonus for spellcasters, on the same level that finding gda or something on the ground is for melee characters
02:53 < Eronarn> i wouldn't mind it if it were one spellbook, but three is ridiculosu
02:53 < Eronarn> most games you're lucky to find 3 spellbooks in the first several dlvls
02:54 < nrook> it's not like most spellcasters are going to be able to do much from three books
02:55 <+due> Finding anything good in it is unlikely.
02:55 < Vandal> you find a longsword, a morningstar, and a broad axe
02:56 < Vandal> that is a more valid comparison :P
02:56 <+due> It might make sense to have some variations of that vault involving potions or wands.
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03:14 < Eronarn> ...power has imb now
03:15 <+due> Yes, it's useful now.
03:17 < Ashenzari> No message for Clarity amulet + Berserk Rage potions (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=325) by Eronarn
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03:18 <+due> Oh, damn. I forgot to do a playtesting post.
03:22 < Ashenzari> Pacified creatures will get stuck on doors (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=326) by Eronarn
03:23 < Twinge> I assume Aizul's sleep wouldn't work on someone that is currently berserk?  Some people on ##crawl are talking about that...
03:23 <+doy> why wouldn't it?
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03:24 <+due> Why wouldn't it?
03:24 < Eronarn> Twinge: imagine sleepwalking
03:24 < Eronarn> then imagine it REALLY ANGRILY
03:25 < Twinge> Eronarn: Hahaha.  Hmm.  It seems like it'd at least be harder to be put to sleep while berserking, though.
03:25 <+doy> i don't see why
03:25 <+due> Why?
03:25 <+due> It's not like hypnotism.
03:25 <+due> It's a spell. IT puts you to sleep.
03:25 < Twinge> You're flooded with adrenaline.
03:26 <+due> You're being magically kept asleep.
03:26 < Eronarn> Twinge: FWIW, your body is capable of sleep while you're on *meth*. Nevermind adrenaline.
03:26 < Twinge> Fair enough I suppose, just now how I pictured it working mentally I guess.
03:27 <+due> It's not a natural sleep.
03:28 < Twinge> Sure, but that doesn't inherently mean some things which would resist natural sleep wouldn't also help resist that.  (But it can, which is fine I suppose, just hadn't thought of it that way previously.)
03:29 <+due> Think of it more as an enforced coma, then.
03:30 < Eronarn> ...why don't trolls count as cannibalism
03:34 <+due> Hey, so apparently slings train throwing more than slings.
03:34 < Eronarn> oh wait, is it only your own genus rather than all int? okay
03:34 <+due> I can't work out why.
03:34 < Eronarn> due: just drop the crosstraining :P
03:34 <+due> Also
03:34 <+due> Why?
03:34 <+due> But yeah
03:34 <+due> I'm thinking that might help.
03:34 <+due> It doesn't actually use any throwing skill in it...
03:34 <+due> I'll need to look.
03:34 < Eronarn> due: Why should it exist?
03:34 < Eronarn> It was only there because slings use rocks as ammo
03:34 <+due> Huh.
03:35 <+due> Yeah, it should go.
03:35 <+due> Thought: big kobolds should occasionally spawn with bucklers and slings and sling bullets.
03:35 <+due> Yes/yes?
03:35 < Eronarn> no
03:35 < Eronarn> crossbows
03:35 < Eronarn> !apt ko
03:35 < Henzell> Ko: Air=100, Armour=140, Axes=110, Bows=80, Conj=110, Xbows=90, Darts=50!, Div=130, Dodge=70, Earth=100, Ench=110, Evo=60, Exp=100!, Fighting=80, Fire=100, Ice=100, Inv=75, Long=140, Maces=100, Nec=105, Poison=100, Polearms=150, Shields=130, Short=60!, Slings=70, Splcast=143, Stab=70, Staves=110, Stealth=60, Summ=105, Throw=60!, Tloc=100, Tmut=110, Traps=100, Unarmed=100
03:35 <+due> Why crossbows?
03:35 < Eronarn> switch xbow and sling apt
03:35 <+due> No.
03:35 < Eronarn> and then make it xbows
03:35 <+due> That makes no sense.
03:36 < Eronarn> You don't like crossbow kobolds? :(
03:36 <+due> I mean, it's an option, but for what reason? How would it make them interesting?
03:36 <+due> And how will it make them not *fucking deadly* in the early game?
03:36 <+due> They're bad enough with darts, and slings might be pushing it, but *crossbows*?
03:36 < Vandal> WEll it would make Halflings the only Sling user by default ;o
03:36 < Vandal> but there are only 2 other xbow users
03:36 <+due> Don't want halflings as the only sling user in case halflings go bye-bye (still possible).
03:36 < Eronarn> due: uh... fucking deadly compared to CURARE? :P
03:37 <+due> Curare doesn't spawn as often as big kobolds with darts.
03:38 <+sorear> we could occasionally give *big* kobolds xbows
03:38 <+sorear> Twinge: In 4.1 you got a hefty MR bonus for being berserk
03:40 < Twinge> sorear: Interesting.
03:41 < Eronarn> sorear: yes, that's what i was thinking
03:41 < Eronarn> also, this gives me an idea for a neat fire support spell
03:41 < Eronarn> berserks an enemy, but lowers their MR dramatically
03:41 < Twinge> Honestly I don't see any reason at all to keep slings seperated and blowguns NOT seperated right now.  That makes no sense at all to me.  If anything, especially with recent changes to blowguns and dart options, it seems like Blowguns should be their own apt and slings NOT (or all 3 in the same apt)
03:41 < Eronarn> only castable in melee range
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03:42 <+due> Twinge: Because blowguns were never separate before.
03:44 < Twinge> Hmm?
03:45 <+due> Blowguns were part of the "darts" skill; we nuked the darts skill and subsumed it, and, by proxy, blowguns, into throwing.
03:45 < Twinge> There were Blowguns+Darts, Throwing, and Slings.  Seems reasonable to combine all 3, but if there are to be 2 left, it makes more sense to me for those 2 to be Blowguns and Throwing+Slings
03:45 <+due> We haven't touched the slings skill.
03:45 <+due> Well, that's an option, sure.
03:46 < Twinge> Yes, I'm fully aware of that - I'm saying that doesn't make sense :P
03:46 <+due> But there's a hell of a lot more special-cased code for slings than there is for throwing.
03:46 < Twinge> Hmm
03:46 < Eronarn> Twinge: dpeg was willing to consider a merge of all non bow/xbow skills into one
03:46 <+due> And I'm not sure how much of an impact combining throwing and slings is going to have.
03:46 < Eronarn> but we can try what we have first
03:46 < Eronarn> we could also buff slings, inherently
03:46 <+due> But yeah.
03:46 < Twinge> Eronarn: Yeah I forget who it was that ocnvinced me merging all 3 together was the best idea, might've been dpeg
03:46 < Eronarn> like - gving them the backcosh effect that clubs have now
03:47 <+due> I just want to unlink slings now and see what an impact it has.
03:47 < Eronarn> chance to confuse distracted opponents you sling
03:47 < nrook> I liked b0rsuk's idea of explosive sling bullets
03:47 <+due> If it's not enough, sure, they can get buffer further.
03:47 < Eronarn> (non-MRably)
03:47 <+due> nrook: what's the idea?
03:47 <+due> nrook: (They're already existant, for the record.)
03:47 < Eronarn> due: like evap but nonspell
03:47 < nrook> due: explosive ranged things are limited to specific grenades, which must be fired from a sling to go very far
03:47 <+due> Oh.
03:48 <+due> Yeah, interesting. Not going to be done for 0.6, though.
03:48 < Eronarn> it's a fine idea but i'd rather have it be done with randart projectiles
03:48 < Eronarn> and not sling specific
03:48 <+due> Yeah.
03:48 <+due> I think randart projectiles are cool--but not for 0.6.
03:48 <+due> Ranged combat wasn't an 0.6 target originally, and while it is now, I just want it to be workable and playable for 0.6.
03:49 <+due> Adding randart projectiles or exploding sling-launched things, sure, but that would require a lot more playtesting and balancing.
03:51 < Eronarn> due: I'm willing to bet it would smoothly flow from randart rods; in that valid not-buff randart rod effects if made into a manual list would also make a good list of randart projectile on-hit effects
03:52 < Eronarn> Or "turns-into-this-in-flight" effects
03:52 <+due> Sure.
03:52 < Eronarn> ...holy shit
03:52 <+due> Mechanics and stuff would need to be discussed heavily.
03:53 < Eronarn> due: IOOD. On an arrow. For AM book!
03:53 <+due> Well, yeah, that would be cool.
03:53 <+due> I was thinking about ways to make "Warp weapon" go well with bows.
03:54 <+due> The easiest option would be to imbue missiles fired with it as dispersal, but I don't think that's interesting enough.
03:54 < Eronarn> due: That portal spell I described could do it... fire an arrow into a portal, a few turns later, portals start appearing that fire copies of the arrow out of them! "Heisenberg's Uncertain Arrow"
03:55 <+sorear> Eronarn: we can't just drop names like that
03:55 <+due> Randomly placed portals!
03:55 < Eronarn> Yes!
03:55 <+sorear> Eronarn: if we did that, we'd need a Heisenburg wizlab
03:55 <+due> Yeah, keep that in mind.
03:55 <+sorear> with Heisenburg compensaters lying around
03:55 <+due> Any newly named wizard spells will need WizLabs.
03:56 < Eronarn> As long as we know its energy we don't need to know whether it's in Crawl or not.
03:56  * due beats Eronarn with a stick.
03:56 <+due> We should rename box of beasts: Schroedinger's box.
03:57 <+due> You can evoke it to either get monsters, or monster corpses
03:57 < Eronarn> (but, okay, the name is silliness. Realistically: I think IOOD would work better as creating a bunch of small projectiles that use that logic. But we could make an arrow-y version of it instead that works that way.)
03:57 < Eronarn> due: That's wonderful.
03:57 <+due> I like the idea of "Someone's Homing Missile".
03:58 < Eronarn> Could be Maxwell if the name were based around charges/fields
03:59 <+sorear> Am I the only one who doesn't like the appropriation of real world physicists?
03:59 <+sorear> Maxwell, Shroedinger, Heisenberg, Nikola, ...
03:59 < Eronarn> sorear: I think it's cute.
03:59 <+sorear> (no, CaptainErsatz is not a solution)
03:59 <+due> sorear: The Schroedinger was a joke, I didn't actually intend that it be used.
04:00 <+due> Though I didn't realise that MAxwell was based on an actual physiscist.
04:00 <+due> Er. Physicist. I should eat.
04:00 <+sorear> I don't think Maxwell is
04:00 <+due> James Clerk Maxwell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
04:00 <+due> James Clerk Maxwell (13 June 1831 – 5 November 1879) was a Scottish theoretical physicist and mathematician. His most important achievement was classical ...
04:00 <+sorear> Maxwell just the silver hammer and heavy armor dude currently
04:01 < Eronarn> Well, Maxwell is a physicist. Not sure if ours is the same one.
04:01 <+due> Yeah.
04:01 <+sorear> Eronarn is suggesting that our Maxwell become involved with fields
04:01 <+due> Nikola needs to be renamed to Niko.
04:01 <+doy> wasn't the armor originally edison?
04:01 < Eronarn> think so
04:01 <+sorear> yes
04:01 <+due> Yes
04:01 <+due> It was Edison's to start with.
04:01 <+doy> why was that changed?
04:01 <+due> I'm not sure, to be honest.
04:01 <+due> But yeah. NAming spells is cool, but too much of it is just too much.
04:01 < Eronarn> sorear: I want to say that the silver hammer spell desc. mentions gravity fields or something
04:02 <+sorear> because Edison was out of place and we already had an earth mage Maxwell
04:02 <+due> Anyway, back in an hour.
04:02 < Eronarn> I don't think it actually makes your weapon silver in the description atm...
04:02 < Eronarn> could be wrong though
04:02 < Twinge> Edison is also a jerkface.
04:06 < Eronarn> is it intentional that pacified quokkas turn darkgrey wth no background
04:06 <+sorear> Edison -> Maxwell was proposed without any justification in a command by Anym on FR#1945156
04:07 <+sorear> I was wrong, then
04:07 < Eronarn> is the armor currently maxwell's?
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04:08 <+sorear> yes
04:09 < Eronarn> kind of funny because:
04:09 < Eronarn> @??nikola
04:09 < Gretell> Nikola (@) | Speed: 9 | HD: 18 | Health: 190 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Damage: 20 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(120) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 3665 | Sp: shock, chain lightning, blink, b.lightning.
04:09 < Eronarn> he has reduced speed :P
04:10 <+sorear> @?? greater naga
04:10 < Gretell> greater naga (N) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 15 | Health: 45-120 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Damage: 27 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(immune), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 1576 | Sp: b.venom, mystic blast, haste, poison arrow, teleport other, teleport self.
04:10 <+sorear> he needs (act: 90%)
04:10 <+sorear> wait
04:10 <+sorear> speed 8?
04:11 <+sorear> why are they so much faster than player nagas
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04:11 < Eronarn> sorear: for the same reason there's a player/monster centaur disparity: no reason at all
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04:15 < nrook> note to self: enemies get turns when you travel through pan gates
04:15 < nrook> wait, this is ##crawl-dev, sorry guys
04:21 < Twinge> So did the idea of making the whole butchering weapon process less tedious ever make the wiki? (remove knife weapon entirely, assumed to always have small knife you don't have to switch to, still can't butcher with cursed mace/etc. in hands)
04:23 < elly> yes please.
04:33 < Twinge> Should that just be submitted directly as a FR?  I forget who's idea it was, though I could check the logs...
04:35 < Eronarn> The phantom is lightly damaged.
04:35 < Eronarn> The phantom is repulsed!
04:35 < Eronarn> ...what?
04:36 < Eronarn> is this what happens when you enslave demons/undead as a holy-ite?
04:49 < TGW> eronarn: while I don't have the time for a full-level vault, it's coming along swimmingly
04:49 < TGW> orc and lair are tentatively finished, hive is ehh
04:49 < Eronarn> TGW: if you send me the stuff you have i can work on some of it. or i can just do some individual rooms, since it's really like a ton of separate rooms mushed together
04:50 < TGW> eronarn: if you could work on some of the later rooms it'd be nice
04:50 < Eronarn> sure; i have a good idea for hell, at minimum
05:01 < Eronarn> ...HAHAHA
05:01 < Eronarn> bailey entrance is bugged
05:01 < Eronarn> when you leave it you can go back in and get a NEW bailey
05:01 < Eronarn> i'm going to go do 500 baileys on this character
05:02 <+due> Really?
05:02 < Eronarn> Really
05:02 <+due> That's odd
05:02 <+due> Whoa, crash.
05:03 <+due> Not the case in trunk.
05:03 <+due> Sounds like the timeout isn't being used properly.
05:03 < Eronarn> due: You can watch my game, I just did it in trunk
05:03 < Eronarn> well
05:03 < Eronarn> CDO trunk
05:03 < Eronarn> which is from like... this morning
05:03 <+due> Yeah, weird.
05:03  * due doesn't have time to look at it.
05:04 < Eronarn> i'll investigate it from the play end
05:04 < Eronarn> see if i can do it again
05:05 <+due> Okay, I need a to-do list
05:06 <+due> Eronarn: What were those things you asked me to do?
05:06 < Eronarn> what things?
05:07 <+due> You gave me a list of things you wanted me to look at...
05:07 <+due> I Can't remember them all. :|
05:07 < Eronarn> i sent it via msg, right?
05:07 <+due> OH
05:07 <+due> Glowing ego ammuniution.
05:07 < Eronarn> that's already in
05:07 <+due> Yeah
05:07 <+due> It's not properly working though, needs a teweak.
05:07 < Eronarn> oh? seemed to be working ok
05:07 <+due> Does it actually colour?
05:07 < Eronarn> also, suggestion on the needles
05:08 < Eronarn> think so, can check next time i see
05:08 <+due> Yeah, new brand for rage.
05:08 <+due> It's going to be "insanity" instead.
05:08 <+due> Neutral + berserk, so attacks everyone, rather than attacks you.
05:08 < Eronarn> curare shows up in *small* stacks
05:08 <+due> (This was dpeg's suggestion).
05:08 < Eronarn> so should these new needles
05:08 <+due> Also doable.
05:08 < Twinge> Speaking if needles, I heard someone in the main crawl channel saying they could thrown berserking needles at themselves to make themselves berserk?  Is that intended?
05:09 < Eronarn> due: I actually would be in favor of like, all needles being in that size stack. Including poison. But then not altering the # of stacks
05:09 < Eronarn> Needles are way, way over-common atm anyways
05:09 < Eronarn> If stacks were something like 5 +/-1d4, that would be ok
05:09 < Eronarn> it also makes starting with needles much more special
05:10 <+due> Twinge: Kinda.
05:10 <+due> Twinge: It's not intentional, but I don't think it should be removed.
05:10 <+due> It has as many downsides as potion of berserk; amulet of rage and the spell and Trog'sability give you protection.
05:11 < Twinge> Nod.  But aren't they re-usable?
05:11 <+due> Might make rage needles automulhc.
05:11 < Eronarn> due: a more interesting question: should throwing needles have effects? I say yes, using throwing skill to hit with range 1, but no ability to add skill into the calculation.
05:12 <+due> Wait
05:12 <+due> Throwing without using a blowgun?
05:12 < Twinge> Near-endless beserk options from a stack of needles - even without a blowgun- seems like a stellar find is all I'm saying
05:12 < Twinge> Yes.
05:12 <+due> That's wrong
05:12  * due adds to to-do list: throwing needles causes no effects.
05:12 <+due> No mulch, but no effect and no damage.
05:12 < Eronarn> i think it's okay if needles can be thrown - there are tons of examples of blowgun needle like needles being used without blowguns, e.g, mouth darts - as long as it's VERY inefficient
05:13 < Twinge> Yeah, I think they should just have crap range and much much lower chances for effect to take place.  More than 0%
05:13 < Eronarn> due: btw, did you get my msg about unskilled blowgun use?
05:13 <+due> Yes
05:13 <+due> I didn't understand it
05:13 < Eronarn> due: right now it's value of skill + enchantment, floor 1
05:14 <+due> Yup.
05:14 < Eronarn> i propose: skill + enchantment - 5 or 10, no floor, if a negative value, divide by that value and that's the % chance it has to kick in
05:14 <+due> Which is a modifier on the "base" durations.
05:14 < Eronarn> so -2 = 1/2, -3 = 1/3
05:14 <+due> They always kick in.
05:14 < Eronarn> yes, i'm proposing that they *not*
05:14 < Eronarn> it's too good with no skill
05:14 <+due> They just last longer if you have better skills.
05:14 <+due> Hm.
05:14 <+due> TRue.
05:15 < Eronarn> -5 would mean that you need a combination of 5 launcher skill and enchantment to kick in all the time
05:15 <+due> Mind writing pseudocode? I understand what you mean, but not how you think it should be implemented.
05:15 < Eronarn> and worse case, totally no skill/enchantment, you have a 1/5 chance per needle hit
05:16 <+due> Well, if (blowgun_roll < 0) { if (!one_chance_in(abs(blowgun_roll))) return; }
05:16 < Eronarn> due: x = SK_THROWING + ENCH_BLOWGUN; y = x - 5; if x =>0 pow = x+1 else 1/x chance of power = 1
05:16 <+due> Like that?
05:17 <+due> Right.
05:17 < Eronarn> how you handle 0 is up to you really, it could be power 1, or the first tier of fail
05:17 < Eronarn> also -5 is just a guesstimate modifier
05:17 < Eronarn> but 20% absolute minimum chance to have a hitting needle affect seems quite reasonable to me
05:18 <+due> Yeah, I think it does as well.
05:18 < Twinge> 20% sounds reasonable enough.  How much percentage would an average starting Assassin get with that set up?
05:18 < Eronarn> also: might want to look into disabling needle enchantment; their ench doesn't do anything other than anti-mulch now, yes?
05:18 < Eronarn> Twinge: what's an assassin's skill in throwing? 3? 4?
05:19 < Eronarn> i'd start one but i'm in a game
05:20 < Twinge> Only 2 it appears, unless the class itself was changed when the Darts=Throwing change went in
05:20 < Twinge> (I'm still using a, uh, several DAY old trunk version offline, gasp :P)
05:20 < Eronarn> and they have an enchanted blowgun, right?
05:22 <+due> I forgot about assassins.
05:22 < Eronarn> assuming 2 skill and a +1 blowgun, with that formula i posted they'd have -2, which is 1/3 (oops, left out a +1, heh)
05:22 < Eronarn> but... assassins have throwing/darts, right? they could go to just throwing, which'd increase it
05:23 < Twinge> +0, +0 blowgun -- again unless it was changed
05:23 < Eronarn> or start with an enchanted blowgun
05:23 < Eronarn> or we could make the number -4 or -3 instead of -5
05:23 < Twinge> And no throwing darts :P
05:23 < purge> due: what exactly does raising throwing skill do? raise dmg, accuracy
05:23 < purge> ?
05:23 < Eronarn> it could be neat to give them an array of needles
05:24 <+due> purge: I honestly have no idea, actually. Accuracy and damage, likely.
05:24 <+due> Possibly speed.
05:24 < Twinge> Assasin's definitely need a halfway decent chance for them to proc right from the start, for the class to be worth taking.  Or perhaps an array of needles, yeah.
05:24 <+due> I didn't touch that code :)
05:24 < Eronarn> Twinge: yeah, the goal should be that all not-poor-apt assassins have a 100% proc rate from the gate (albeit at very low power)
05:24 < Twinge> Comparing to say Stalker, with Sting's pretty high success rate, and damage alongside the poison to boot
05:24 < Eronarn> it will not take much poking from what i proposed to reach that though
05:25 < purge> assassins get curare off the start which is pretty powerful
05:25 < Twinge> Fair enough.  And yes, they do get curare -- but it wouldn't be very impressive if it only worked 1/3 of the time you hit :P
05:27 < Eronarn> due: This time the bailey didn't do that. File it? I know which bailey it was that didn't trigger
05:28 <+due> Crap, too many terminals open
05:28 <+due> Yes, please do.
05:37 < Ashenzari> Bailey doesn't properly close dungeon portal on exit (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=327) by Eronarn
05:45 < Eronarn> hmm... I take back what I said about DDAr recharging
05:45 < Eronarn> it's quite powerful early, but the rod simply can't hold up as a rod even with high evo skill
05:45 < Eronarn> and i'm only on D:9
05:45 < Twinge> So kind of like how poison is super strong early, but even more powerful early and even faster to become weak?
05:46 < Eronarn> not quite... it's more like, yes it is very powerful to recharge your starting wand immediately
05:46 < Eronarn> but, those charges could be better saved for a later rod, perhaps
05:47 <+due> Yeah, definitely.
06:01 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
06:04 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["."]
06:07 < Ashenzari> Monster falling through a shaft did not ID the shaft (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=328) by Eronarn
06:09 <+due> Monsters falling through shafts destroy shafts; there shouldn't be one left behind.
06:09 <+due> So yeah, unintended behaviour.
06:10 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-114-135-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
06:10 <+due> Unfortunately the side-effect of not having finished the shaft work. That really ought to be a 0.6 target.
06:10 <+due> Also, I had an amusing conversation with someone in ##crawl; apparently the only member of the dev team that they knew was Napkin and eith.
06:11 < Eronarn> was it a regular, or?
06:11 <+due> No, someone I've never spoken to.
06:11 <+due> Apparently a regular player, though, on CDO.
06:11 < Eronarn> interesting
06:11 < Eronarn> it could be neat to preface playtesting posts in the future with a "get to know the devs" thing
06:14 <+due> Not a bad idea.
06:15 < elly> I bring you tidings from angbandland: http://l.leptoquark.net/~elly/zergrush2.png
06:17 <+due> That's a lot of cats claws.
06:17 < Eronarn> @??sonja
06:17 < Gretell> Sonja (K) | Speed: 14 | HD: 6 | Health: 30 | AC/EV: 2/24 | Damage: 9, 5, 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(8) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 267 | Sp: blink, teleport self.
06:18 < Eronarn> aughgglkfgjhfg
06:18 < elly> due: I got killed.
06:18 < Eronarn> yet another random faster-than-10 unique
06:18 <+due> I'm not sure why she's so fast.
06:18 <+due> "Ballet-dancer fast"?
06:18 < Eronarn> because people think hard => fast
06:18 < Eronarn> because they're STUPID
06:18 < Eronarn> and WRONG >:(
06:19 <+due> Well, part of the issue is that, code-wise, slow = easy.
06:20 < Eronarn> how do you mean
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06:22 < Eronarn> ughhh that was waful
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06:23 < Eronarn> i can't believe a unique with speed 14, curare, and blink is only worth 267
06:23 <+due> She's nasty.
06:25 < Twinge> Also EV 24, which is not a low number.  
06:25 < Twinge> I'll add her to the list
06:25 < Eronarn> she can have distortion, too
06:26 < ogaz> she has no hp though
06:26 <+due> She is pretty wimpy.
06:26 <+due> She can get a HP and EXP boost.
06:26 < Eronarn> ogaz: yeah, but if you don't have meph/evap/etc. she's a real pain
06:26 < ogaz> Eronarn: or a wand of magic dart
06:27 < ogaz> (okay, I'm exaggerating, but I haven't found her dangerous in any of my admittedly few encounters with her)
06:27 < Eronarn> by the way, would anyone else be in favor of renaming magic dart to be an Isky's spell?
06:27 < Eronarn> ogaz: neither have i but that's because most of my characters have evap :P
06:27 < Eronarn> this was my first time running into her without something that autohits
06:29 < Eronarn> hm... Ely pacification working well on ugly things. Bug or feature? I'm inclined to say they should pacify as if they were undead/demons, rather than natural creatures
06:29 < Twinge> I'm thinking the base XP formula could just take speed more into account fora better baseline to work with - it seems to drastically underestimate the value of speed by only counting it once, and counting HD so heavily.  It also doesn't even count AC or EV at ALL IIRC.
06:30 <+due> I don't think we should rename early spells.
06:31 < Twinge> I have a mild preference for Magic Dart staying with its current name as well.
06:32 < Eronarn> Twinge: i think the XP formula should take into account something more like a "resource you might need to expend" model
06:33 < Eronarn> assume a certain range of player characteristics, vs. the stats of the monster; what're the odds the player would need to use a non-resistable attack? a teleport/blink/escape? etc.
06:33 < Twinge> That seems rather more difficult and even more different per character than it is now
06:33 < Eronarn> Twinge: yes, the difficulty is finding an appropriate set of baseline characteristics, and the categories of possible resource expenditures
06:34 < Eronarn> it's not an intractable problem though
06:35 < Eronarn> you could then take the output of that and compare it to the current formula output looking for anomalies... i reckon that basically any >10 monster would be worth much more XP, likewise poisoners
06:36 < Twinge> Possible.  Not something I feel I could help create though, hehe.  And probably not something that could be implemented in 0.6, whereas smaller tweaks to the existing formula and/or manual per-monster tweaks can be.
06:36 < Eronarn> yeah, i am in favor of manual tweaks
06:36 <+sorear> due: shame on you, you didn't remove SK_DARTS from the enum
06:37 < Eronarn> i don't think we should put much effort into the formula unless we're actually going to design a better formula though
06:37 <+due> sorear: Yeah, I wasn't sure how to do so safely.
06:37 <+due> sorear: That was the first step. Then I removed hand crossbows and stuff and I forgot to go back and remove the darts skill.
06:37 <+sorear> due: simply remove the value
06:37 <+sorear> don't do the = 11 stuff
06:38 <+due> And then remove all of the "unused" aptitutdes?
06:38 <+sorear> gaps in enums cause huge problems
06:38 < Twinge> Nod, that's fair.  All I was looking at was something simple (change "* speed" to e.g. "* (speed^1.30103)/2" {weird number to make it the same for 10 speed}, but it'd still need to be tested enough that it might not be worth it.
06:38 <+sorear> valrus now has xp going into INVALID SKILL
06:38 <+due> Oh really? How?
06:38 <+sorear> because Sage rolled a die and it came up 10
06:38 <+sorear> for skill
06:38 <+due> Ahhhhhh.
06:38 <+due> Whoops.
06:38 <+sorear> and you left a gap in the numbers
06:38 <+due> Me naughty.
06:39  * due can't fix it at the minute.
06:39 < Eronarn> sorear: i think the recharge rate on rods might be a bit too high, what's the current formula
06:40 <+sorear> 4+e per 100 turns
06:40 <+due> I'll put it on my to-do list unless you fix it.
06:40 < Twinge> So is there a way to just set monster exp directly then?  In mon-data I only see the experience modifier value that is easily adjustable, but sorear mentioned there might be a way to just set it flat-out...
06:41 <+sorear> Twinge: replace the entire contents of exper_value with return _mons_exp_mod(monster->type);
06:42 < Eronarn> sorear: it definitely needs to drop. When I made that suggestion, that wasn't taking into account the evo modifier. My DD with a +5 rod and 13 evo is recovering 1 point per 4 rounds
06:43 <+sorear> 4+5 = 9, 9 * 2.6 = ~24
06:43 <+sorear> mm
06:43 < Eronarn> i'm not sure evo even needs to make your rod recharge faster
06:43 <+sorear> is that too much?
06:43 <+sorear> I thought evo was supposed to be good
06:43 < Eronarn> well, it's a fast-training skill remember
06:43 < Eronarn> and rods have good spells
06:44 < Eronarn> not affected by ASF, or now armor
06:44 < Eronarn> er, now shields
06:44 < Eronarn> ...also, i just remembered ASF is a D&D term, i'm doing amazing tonight :)
06:44 <+sorear> ASF?
06:44 < Eronarn> arcane spell failure (D&D version of armor penalty to casting)
06:45 < Eronarn> sorear: what about - tie evo benefit to wand recharging to spellcasting benefit to MP/sec
06:45 < Eronarn> spellcasting boosts your MP, which makes it regen more MP/sec since the time to regen doesn't change
06:45 < Twinge> How does the rod bonus increase?  Maybe that oculd be partially capped, e.g. more than +3 only increases it further by a small flat rate each step or something
06:45 < Twinge> I think Evo should still affect recharge rate
06:45 < Eronarn> Twinge: the rod bonus is a base of 4+n where n is rod value, -3 to +9, per 100 turns
06:45 < Eronarn> the problem is the evo modifier beyond that is *huge*, apparently
06:47 <+sorear> Eronarn: Evo modifer is 100% + 10% per evo point
06:48 < Eronarn> so assuming no racial modifiers, and Spc = XL... (2*XL) / ( (XL * 1) + (2 * XL-1) )
06:48 < Eronarn> though, that gets it in the wrong units
06:48 <+sorear> Eronarn: I'm not following you
06:48 < Twinge> Eronarn: Oh, I read that backwards I guess.  I thought Evo was that bonus, so a +0 rod with Evo 5 would be 3 base + 5 =  8 / 100, which is definitely on the low end.
06:49 < Eronarn> Twinge: no, it'd be 3 base + 0 = 3/100, * evo modifier sorear just listed
06:49 < Eronarn> a +5 rod would be 3 + 5 = 8 * that modifier
06:50 < Eronarn> sorear: It'll be clearer once I have the numbers one sec
06:55 < Twinge> sorear: I'm not following your exp explanation.  (I'm feeling rather inept and even reading the code in general sadly, guess I've been away from coding for too long :P)  Where is this exper_value I'd be replacing?
06:56 <+sorear> mon-util.cc
06:56 <+sorear> it's a giant function that calculates xp for every monster
06:56 <+sorear> if you want to hand-pick xp values, you should axe that
06:58 < Eronarn> sorear: OK, what I was trying to explain: your MP is X. It regens in Y time. Thus, X/Y = MP/sec. Adding a level of spellcasting gives you X+2/Y. Assuming a character who has no other bonuses to MP, and keeps Spc and XL equal,
06:58 < ogaz> Would there be a way to factor average monster equipment into the formula?
06:58 < Eronarn> the first level of Evo = 3x increase in MP sec from 0
06:58 < Eronarn> second level = 1.4x increase in MP sec from 1
06:58 < Eronarn> and so on
06:58 < Twinge> ogaz: Not easily, without a complete formula overhaul.  So for now we're looking at just fixing specific cases.
06:59 < Twinge> sorear: Oh, I wasn't thinking about it the same way, no wonder I couldn't find it.  For now I'd like to just hand-set ~40 monsters and leave the other ~300 run by the formula
07:00 < Eronarn> the base rate is way too high for that to work here, but some similar progression could be used
07:00 <+sorear> Twinge: I was under the impression you had ~200 special cases to set, so I thought it would be simpler to explicitly set all of them
07:01 < Twinge> Oh, no.  The list is 45 right now, and I don't expect too many more to be added.
07:02 <+due> 45 special cases is still nasty.
07:03 < Twinge> True, but not all that hard to deal with I think.  I guess for now just changing the exp_modifier for those cases would be the route to go, as those modifiers owuld have to be changed for everything anyway when a formula overhaul is done sometime in the distant future
07:05 < Twinge> Basically this looked like something easy enough that I could personally make the patch for it once there was agreement on the numbers, rather than having to get someone else that could spend their time elsewhere to do it
07:16 < Eronarn> whoah, centaurs can show up with bardings? :O
07:16 < Eronarn> also, due:
07:16 < Eronarn> You see here an orcish javelin.
07:16 < Eronarn> v - 6 glowing orcish javelins
07:16 <+due> Yes
07:16 <+due> Wait
07:17 <+due> Argh, that's not supposed to happen
07:17 <+due> So it wasn't glowing on the ground--but it got joined together with the glowing ones in your inventory?
07:17 < Eronarn> yes
07:17 < Eronarn> to make it weirder
07:17 <+due> :/
07:17 < Eronarn> some ones on the ground WERE glowing
07:17 <+due> Ah
07:17 < Eronarn> i think urug dropped his javs to pick up a bow and arrow, and those ones glowed
07:17 < Eronarn> but the ones he threw did not
07:17 < Eronarn> (this happened offscreen)
07:17 <+due> They're probably the same type but somehow lost the glowing identifier.
07:18 <+due> File a bug, please.
07:18 <+due> I really don't know the code that well :/
07:18 < Eronarn> aight
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07:23 < Ashenzari> Ego throwables losing their glowing status (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=329) by Eronarn
07:23 <+due> And also stacking improperly.
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07:48 <+sorear> Eronarn: *yaktaurs* can show up with bardings.
07:49 <+due> Centaurs used to show up with bardings--and when they didn't, they got gold, which was an amusing bug.
07:50 <+doy> yeah, nagas too
07:50 < Eronarn> is it intentional that ely's purification not affect stat damage
07:50 <+sorear> they got gold *in the armor slot*
07:50 <+doy> made snake a great place to get tons of gold
07:50 <+sorear> Eronarn: ely's next-up power, Restoration, does
07:51 < Eronarn> oh, okay
07:52 <+sorear> woah
07:52 <+sorear> I just randomly visited the ADOM forums, see if anything interesting
07:52 <+sorear> and there's a post by ERIK PIPER
07:53 <+doy> traitor!
07:55 < Twinge> Erik's been in the ADOM community for years!
07:56 <+sorear> Twinge: I did not know that.
07:56 <+sorear> He is also the founder of Stone Soup
07:56 < Twinge> Oh snap
07:56 < Twinge> He was posting in the aDOM newsgroup at least as early as 2004
07:58 <+sorear> Stone soup started in 03, I think
07:59 <+due> Yay, home time, ciao.
08:00 <+doy> i think stone soup was later than 03
08:03 <+doy> 0.1.0 was released in late 06 anyway
08:10 <+sorear> 010 was the first
08:18 < Eronarn> The wandering mushroom is heavily damaged.
08:18 < Eronarn> The wandering mushroom hits you.
08:18 < Eronarn> You are engulfed in a cloud of spores!
08:18 < Eronarn> The wandering mushroom is destroyed!
08:18 < Eronarn> ...does using their spore attack cost them HP?
08:18 <+sorear> no
08:18 <+sorear> do you have reflection or passive freeze?
08:18 <+sorear> was it on fire?
08:18 < Eronarn> no
08:18 < Eronarn> no
08:19 <+sorear> @whereis Eronarn 
08:19 < Gretell> Eronarn the Prestidigitator (L12 DDAr), a worshipper of Elyvilon, is currently on Lair:3 after 20937 turns.
08:19 <+sorear> are rods still useless?
08:19 < Eronarn> nope, using one as my primary weapon
08:19 <+sorear> which one?
08:20 < Eronarn> striking - the effect is not so good, though
08:20 < Eronarn> it doesn't seem to scale well with Evo
08:20 <+sorear> striking does not scale at all with evo
08:20 < Eronarn> that would explain that :)
08:20 < Eronarn> it probably should
08:21 < Eronarn> same with smiting, fwiw
08:21 <+sorear> also - how is your Spc*Int doing
08:21 <+sorear> smiting does scale
08:21 <+sorear> (for the player)
08:21 < Eronarn> spc 1 int 16 - no spells i'm actually casting. And that's a really weird distinction
08:21 < Eronarn> (I'm evo 14 invo 14 btw)
08:21 <+sorear> you know spc*int reduces rod hunger, right?
08:22 <+doy> (that's dumb)
08:22 < Eronarn> ...that's dumb
08:22 <+doy> it also doesn't use the same formula as spell hunger
08:22 <+doy> which is also dumb
08:22 < Eronarn> it should be int*evo, if we even want int to be a factor... which i think it should be, because right now evo is too good for people in full plate with no int
08:22 <+doy> you can't actually reduce rod hunger to 0
08:27 <+doy> oh wait
08:27 <+doy> sorear: no, rod hunger is only based on evo
08:28 <+doy> it's the normal hunger cost for the same level spell, minus 10*evo, with a minimum of 5*spell level
08:31 <+doy> oh wait again
08:31 <+doy> it's also reduced by int*spc
08:31 <+doy> this is dumb
08:32 < Eronarn> go fix it then :)
08:35 <+doy> well, i don't know what formula we actually should use
08:35 <+doy> (:
08:35 <+doy> certainly not the current one, in any case
08:37 < Eronarn> ...okay it's kind of silly that neutral monsters will use shafts
08:39 <+doy> they just want to get off the level!
08:39 <+doy> (:
09:00 <+due> yoyoy
09:03 <+due> So, reordering the skills is yet another fun major version change.
09:03 <+due> sorear: What should I do abou the 20-24?
09:06 <+sorear> what's that?
09:06 <+due> When I mistakenly thought that just changin the next enum to 11 was the best wway to do it--it was because that was how the rest of the enum was structure.
09:07 <+due> *structured.
09:07 <+due> Should I just remove the = 11 line and leave the others as-is?
09:09 <+due> greensnark: It's just BEAM_BERSERK and BEAM_MIGHT that aren't caught by that switch, by the look of it.
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09:15 <+due> We need more cool transformations.
09:28 < elly> orbital lasers!
09:31 < Eronarn> due: did you see the stuff I have on Immense?
09:32 <+due> No
09:32 <+due> I basically don't read anything.
09:32 <+due> Apparently I don't have time or something.
09:37 < Eronarn> due: Xform, Angelform, Demonform; Morphs, which are things like Blade Hands - wings, hooves, SHARK MAW., serpent head
09:38 < Eronarn> chaos spawn form as one of my proposed DS muts
09:42 -!- SiberOut [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
09:43 -!- Siber [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
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09:46 < Eronarn> Divine Vigour
09:46 < Eronarn> Depending on your Invocations skill, restore a large amount of, and temporarily
09:46 < Eronarn> increase, both your hit points and your magic points.
09:46 < Eronarn> wow this does not feel like an ely ability at all
09:46 <+sorear> it was worse when Zin had it
09:48 <+due> Okay, play testing post.
09:50 <+due> Gah, more than two pages.
09:50 <+sorear> I don't see it
09:51 <+due> sorear: No, more than two pages of commits to summarise. (On gitweb)
09:51 < Eronarn> due: Might want to specifically request DDAr testing to see if the rod changes are broken for them or not
09:53 <+sorear> I'd be amazed if anything is broken with DD recharge of rods
09:53 <+sorear> permanent costs...
09:54 < Eronarn> sorear: well, having a guaranteed high-ench weapon you have good apts in is a pretty big change
09:55 < Eronarn> it wouldn't be broken for a DD without non-consumable healing, but mine is Ely so the 'permanent cost' isn't really a big deal
09:58 < Napkin> Moin guys!
09:58 <+due> Hi Napkin!
09:59 < Napkin> Due! aahh, new post :)
09:59 <+due> I'm working on it right now :)
10:01 <+due> It amuses me that I look at a commit and go "I have no idea what that does" and just copy/paste it verbatim.
10:01 <+due> And then people ask me abut it and I have to go "I honestly have no idea wha it does."
10:05 < Siber> Trove feedback: Being shown the chance to get something and it being practically impossible for you to attain sucks
10:07 < Eronarn> Volcano!!
10:07 <+due> Who!
10:07 < Eronarn> Me
10:07 <+due> ooh ooh which?
10:08 < Eronarn> due: This volcano entrance looks like it should be to a hellish level. "A dark tunnel" surrounded by red tiles...
10:08 <+due> You can probably heal first.
10:08 <+sorear> Volcanos *are* hellish
10:08 <+due> Not hellish enough, really.
10:08 <+due> Oooh, village.
10:08 < Eronarn> People?
10:08 <+due> Orcs.
10:08 <+sorear> (also, I think that volcano lava tides shouldn't destroy items.  Inconsistancies </3)
10:08 < Eronarn> Ew.
10:08 <+due> Zaba's map :)
10:09 <+due> sorear: They really should. That's the point of that map.
10:09 <+due> sorear: Otherwise you can get all the loot.
10:09 <+sorear> due: make permanent lava spills, then
10:09 <+sorear> or have the lava harden, sealing away the items
10:09 <+sorear> if the lava washes away leaving unscarred floor, the items ought to stay
10:09 < Eronarn> alarm traps are so overused
10:10 <+due> Hm.
10:10 < Eronarn> oh wow
10:10 < Eronarn> that's kind of ridiculous loot
10:10 <+due> There are more orc warriors in the other room.
10:11 < Eronarn> all of them? or just most?
10:11 <+due> There's three rooms; one with loot, two with orcs.
10:13 < Eronarn> Oh, that's all? :( Neat, but a bit short
10:13 <+due> Yeah, mapping makes it look larger.
10:13 <+due> Any interesting needles/
10:13 <+due> Oh, nice.
10:13 <+due> Useful?
10:14 < Eronarn> paralysis is totally broken
10:14 < Eronarn> confusion is ok
10:14 <+due> Maybe they should do HD checks as well.
10:14 <+due> Like meph cloud.
10:14 < Eronarn> some HD based factor could be nice
10:15 < Eronarn> not sure where it would fit into the process best though
10:15 <+due> the same place where the blowgun skull check fits in.
10:18 <+due> One page down!
10:22 < Eronarn> due: what, as just like - (fraction of HD) to effective blowgun skill/enchantment? it'll definitely need some tweaking if so
10:22 < Eronarn> otherwise random monsters will be near-immune to blowguns early game when other ones you can always hit fine
10:23 <+due> Er.
10:24 <+due> No, it'll use the same meph cloud chceck.
10:24 <+due> Which is just a random saving throw against the monster's HD.
10:31 <+due> Wait, since when did we give the long blade stabbing bonus to spears?
10:32 < Mu_> commited a few days ago
10:32 <+sorear> a few weeks ago
10:32 <+sorear> it went in at the same time as back-coshing
10:33 <+sorear> a few days ago, I closed a FR to give one-handed polearms stabbing, because I thought spears were the only one-handed polearm
10:33 <+sorear> kilobyte 1. publically called me on it 2. implemented stabbing for (demon) tridents without further discussion
10:33 < ogaz> strictly speaking, there aren't any
10:34 <+sorear> yes, that's what kilobyte pointed out
10:34 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"]
10:40 <+kilobyte> sorear: what solution would you prefer?  You were away when I asked, I wondered whether to leave it as a discussion or do it the way you described.
10:42 <+kilobyte> I didn't suspect you had something else on mind (since spears and tridents have identical handedness).
10:46 <+sorear> kilobyte: I'm fine with it as it is now; I don't suspect overpoweredness and it's plenty intuitive
10:47 <+due> Eh. I don't like it, still.
10:49  * due goes back to playtesting post.
10:50 <+due> What does an ettin look like, anyway?
10:51 <+kilobyte> same as a two-headed ogre, in all games I've seen
10:52 <+due> Heh.
10:58 <+sorear> early Crawl snapshot comments indicate that the two-headed ogre was omitted for being too boring, and ettins were added as a midrange giant threat
11:02 <+due> Odd.
11:02 <+due> I find ettins are boring.
11:03 < Napkin> two-headed ogre is far more dangerous, no?
11:03 <+due> Finally onto the first pace!
11:03 <+greensnark> Players get double hp when zerking in trunk, correct?
11:04 <+greensnark> Is there any reason that courtesy should not be extended to monsters as well? :)
11:04 <+due> Heh.
11:04 <+greensnark> Or any particular reason why berserk involves double hp for players now?
11:04 <+greensnark> It's quite unnecessary
11:06 < Napkin> what?
11:06 < Napkin> it's what keeps them alive
11:06 <+greensnark> They used to get *1.5, which was plenty
11:06 < Napkin> seriously? I've always had *2
11:06 <+greensnark> And I'm aware that hp gets scaled back post-zerk now, but that is not powerfully important
11:06 <+greensnark> Napkin: No, it was always *1.5 until recently
11:06 <+kilobyte> you got *1.5 HEALING
11:07 <+greensnark> kilobyte: Yeah, I know
11:07 <+kilobyte> it was the most powerful healing effect in the game
11:07 <+greensnark> And berserk was ridiculously strong, so?
11:07 <+greensnark> It would still be very good without the heal and *1.5 hp
11:07 <+greensnark> *1.5 maxhp, I mean
11:08 < Napkin> Making Tiamat and Snorg still stronger is kinda harsh, no? no matter if *2 or *1.5 hp
11:08 <+kilobyte> it's for all practical purposes 50% (33% for *1.5) damage reduction now
11:08 <+greensnark> They get *1.5 when berserk, but that is plainly unfair :P
11:08 <+greensnark> I'm still not seeing any reason for the player boost to go from *1.5 to *2
11:09 < Napkin> ah, creeps get *1.5 while players get *2?
11:09 <+greensnark> It sounds like somebody complained about the loss of berserk healing and this was done to soothe their bruised spirits :P
11:09 <+greensnark> But the fact is, that bererk is plenty strong enough at *1.5maxhp and no post-zerk heal :P
11:09 < Napkin> sonuds unfair, indeed
11:10 < Napkin> i've beat the game twice in.. 4 years? and i'm scared when you talk like that, greensnark :-P
11:10 <+greensnark> Fear not, this is dpeg's change to make :P
11:11 < Napkin> :D
11:11 <+greensnark> I shall file a BR on the monster maxhp thing and propose changing player maxhp boost back to where it was
11:12 < Napkin> anything happened tonight? Shall I update CDO in the mean-time?
11:12 <+due> Well
11:12 <+due> I need to pus ha fix in enum.h that is causing weirdness with Sage
11:12 < Napkin> did you guys see, that you can update CDO too now?
11:12 <+greensnark> Did Keskitalo put in the fluffy bunny Ely vault? :)
11:12 <+due> But it's another tag major version change
11:12 <+due> We can?
11:13 < Napkin> oops, no! just thinking out loud! :>
11:13 < Napkin> i need to add locking to the script first
11:13 < Napkin> but then, yes, you can already
11:13 < CIA-84> kilobyte * r20956f9f4cac /crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Let chunks stack, if their age is similar.
11:13 <+due> :D
11:13 <+sorear> agh
11:14 <+sorear> that *is* controvertial
11:17 <+due> Why are javelins available as poisoned?
11:17 <+greensnark> Chunk stacking is fine
11:17 <+sorear> javelins are good at piercing stuff
11:17 <+sorear> so they're good at delivering poison
11:18 <+greensnark> Oh, that reminds me, can we change the message for penetrating missiles to "pierces through X" instead of "passes through X"
11:18 <+due> Yeah, but it's not on David's list of "okay" brands, which is what I was sticking to for the minute until there was further discussion.
11:18 <+sorear> poisoned sling bullets would be useless because they bounce off their target
11:18 <+greensnark> "passes through X" sounds as if it goes through X without affecting X
11:18 <+sorear> I'm on it
11:19 < Ashenzari> Player and monster berserk max hp boost is inconsistent (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=330) by greensnark
11:19 <+due> I can do it
11:19 <+due> But... weh
11:19 <+due> I doubt I'll commit anything tonight, too tired to finish anything beyond the play testing post.
11:21 <+sorear> I remember the first time I played a berserker, I tried to powergame by waiting until very low HP to berserk
11:22 <+sorear> Because I thought it was making the healing bigger :D
11:23 <+due> Hah
11:26 <+greensnark> Oh wow, a whole slew of Shoals deaths
11:26 <+due> And argh.
11:26 <+due> am I the only one who gets frustrated by "satiated" being described as "not hungry"?
11:26 <+greensnark> :)
11:27 <+due> greensnark: Thanks for fixing needle generation.
11:27 <+greensnark> NetHack uses it to mean Full, no?
11:27 <+sorear> NetHack uses it to mean Engorged
11:27 <+greensnark> due: NP
11:27 <+due> Satiated is "I'm stuffed, though I could probably force myself to eat just a little bit more."
11:28 <+greensnark> Oh yeah, NetHack has that choking death stuff :P
11:28 <+greensnark> I think I choked once in NH :P
11:28 <+due> Okay, play testing pots done.
11:28 <+greensnark> Died to typoing into lava a few times though :P
11:28 <+sorear> new item, 
11:29 <+due> new item what?
11:29 < Napkin> does nethack have an auto-explore?
11:29 <+due> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=189
11:29 <+greensnark> Napkin: No :)
11:29 < Napkin> are the maps that small?
11:29 <+kilobyte> it doesn't need it, levels are so much smaller
11:29 < Napkin> i watched someone play on the tiles server
11:29 <+sorear> new item, "wafer thin mint".  Eating it causes you to instantly die, producing a shower of chunks and blood.  MONUSE_EAT_FOOD and _ITEMS monsters cannot resist eating them as they pass over
11:29 <+due> Napkin: Can you typo fix? :S
11:29 <+greensnark> And visibility is based on rooms, not distance
11:29 < Napkin> and they looked all the same, to be honest
11:29 <+greensnark> Well, not just distance
11:30 <+greensnark> I think bigroom has an LOS limit
11:30 < Napkin> sure thing, due
11:30 <+sorear> actually, NetHack's visibility is based only on geometry
11:30 < Napkin> lemme get locking working first
11:30 <+sorear> you need a straight line, doesn't matter how long it is
11:30 <+due> Thanks!
11:30 <+sorear> *Rogue* used rooms - same room, can see
11:30 <+greensnark> sorear: There isn't a limit?
11:31 <+sorear> greensnark: nope, and there are several levels where you can see all 79+21 spaces.
11:31 <+kilobyte> due: uhm, "Neutral monsters no longer give you experience for kills."?
11:31 <+greensnark> Ah
11:31 <+sorear> Their visibility algorithm is a lot more efficient (and buggier) than ours
11:31 <+due> Apparently I find it dififcult to parse some commit messages.
11:31 <+due> Either I suck, or some people don't explain enough. :p
11:32 < Napkin> *when killed
11:32 <+sorear> Monsters, however, are arbitrarily hacked to ignore the player if you're in sight but more than 12 spaces away
11:32 < Napkin> they suck, due ;>
11:32 <+due> Actually, I couldn't tell from the commit message whether it was referring to neutral monsters killing monsters, or you killing neutral monsters.
11:32 <+due> "Don't give exp for kills by neutrals."
11:33 <+due> That says "Don't give exp for kills (made) by neutrals".
11:33 < Napkin> true
11:33 <+due> Rather than "Don't give exp for kills (of) neutrals".
11:33 <+due> Which is it?
11:33  * sorear spits on slow g++
11:33 <+kilobyte> made by
11:34 <+due> sorear has been spittedby a slow g++, it's time for roast sorear!
11:34 <+greensnark> I'm not sure why sirens should block teleport, that sounds like a rather cruel deathtrap
11:34 < Napkin> ohhh - who made that commit, due? i have a pile of stones of chaos :>
11:34 <+kilobyte> and indeed the commit message is lacking, it was semi-acceptable when on a branch but once merged into master its misleading
11:34 <+due> Ahhh
11:34 <+due> Yeah, the branch commits are confusing.
11:35 <+due> Napkin: kilobyte ;)
11:35 <+due> kilobyte: Wait, you have a pile of stones of chaos?
11:35 <+due> Er. Napkin?
11:35  * Napkin tosses a tiny stone to due *
11:35 <+greensnark> heteroy drowned in the Shoals?!
11:35 <+due> You actually have stones branded as chaos?
11:35 <+greensnark> What was yesterday, International Shoals Suicide Day?
11:35 < Napkin> lol, j/k
11:35 <+due> Oh.
11:35 <+due> You scared me! :o
11:35 <+greensnark> Heh, he got mesmerised levitating over deep water
11:35 < Napkin> ;)
11:36 <+due> Okay, so my changing the skills enum again is going to require another tAG_MAJOR_VERSION change, right?
11:36 < Napkin> teleportation should work, greensnark 
11:36 < Napkin> what reason is there for it now working?
11:36 < Napkin> *not
11:36 <+greensnark> You get "You cannot teleport away from the siren"
11:36 <+greensnark> I don't think blocking teleport is good
11:36 <+due> I think that's nasty, to be honest.
11:36 <+due> Blink, maybe.
11:36 <+kilobyte> greensnark: people still assume Shoals have the difficulty of mid-lair, not those similar to late Elf
11:36 < Napkin> blink is troubled already, because the LOS change
11:37 <+due> Napkin: Exactly.
11:37 <+greensnark> Shoals isn't late-Elf difficulty though
11:37 < Napkin> but blocking random teleportation seems weird
11:37 <+kilobyte> due: "sheep no longer spawn in Shoals" -- they do, just not by themselves
11:37 <+due> Ah.
11:37 <+greensnark> Sheep can appear as cyclops followers
11:37 <+due> Hey, I was just going off the commit messages!
11:37 <+due> Be more clear in your commit messages, plz. :D
11:37 <+due> I only actually read the commit if I can't make heads or tails of it.
11:37 < Napkin> lol! Cyclops followers?
11:38 < Napkin> they eat the grass away so the cyclops can see better?
11:38 <+due> Napkin: No, Iliad reference.
11:38 <+greensnark> Napkin: Homer Odyssey reference :P
11:38 < Napkin> hehe
11:38 <+due> Er. Odyssey.
11:38  * due fails at Greek literature.
11:38 < Napkin> <3
11:39 <+greensnark> I read the Iliad when I was around 12-13 and totally loved it
11:39 <+greensnark> My favourite was Ajax
11:39 <+greensnark> And then I discovered that the translation I read did not cover the death of Achilles and felt so cheated :P
11:39 <+due> I was reading Roger Zelazny when I was 13.
11:39 < Napkin> hehe
11:39 < Napkin> looool
11:39 <+greensnark> I found Zelazny only recently
11:39 < Napkin> <- John Sinclair :-P
11:39 <+greensnark> Well, about 6 years ago
11:40 <+due> Ouch! That really hurt!
11:40 <+due> monster_attack() for monster 'merfolk javelineer' consumed no energy
11:40 <+due> 'merfolk javelineer' has same energy as last loop
11:40 <+due> :|
11:40  * due stares thoughtfully at greensnark.
11:40  * greensnark whistles innocently.
11:41  * greensnark slips into a dragon costume.
11:41 < CIA-84> sorear * re19f1b69fc54 /crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Make monster berserk a bit more consistent with player (dshaligram)
11:41  * greensnark breathes fire at due.
11:41 < CIA-84> sorear * rbc341fd60b06 /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Tweak wording on SPMSL_PENETRATION (dshaligram)
11:41 < CIA-84> sorear * r337f1de1f6a0 /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Restore poisoned missiles to their rightful glory
11:41  * Napkin tosses a bigger stone to due *
11:41 <+kilobyte> monster ranged combat in general spams that message
11:41 <+kilobyte> especially master archers
11:42 <+due> Oh, interesting.
11:42 <+greensnark> due: Were you in melee with this master archer?
11:42 <+greensnark> Er, javelineer
11:42 <+due> Yeah.
11:42 <+due> It hit me! :(
11:42 <+greensnark> Ah, I think the synthetic first attack is causing issues
11:42 <+due> Synthesis!
11:42 <+greensnark> M_ARCHER monsters have a fake first attack that's applied to their archery only
11:43 <+due> Okay, so I have to bump TAG_MAJOR_VERSION for changing the order of the skills enum again, right?
11:43 <+greensnark> Yes
11:43 <+due> Okay
11:43 <+due> I may as well add insanity while I'm at it
11:43 <+greensnark> Admit it, your goal is to have 365 version of Crawl on cdo by end of month
11:43 <+due> (Neutral berserking)
11:44 <+greensnark> sorear: Monster berserk fix was not what I wanted :P
11:44 <+due> I think it was a request to decrease player boni, rather than increase monster boni :)
11:45 <+greensnark> 2x monster maxhp fixes the inconsistency, but I'm not happy with the power boost to berserk
11:45 <+greensnark> And thanks for the penetration wording fix
11:46 <+due> "It penetrates you!"
11:46  * greensnark heads out to pay bills.
11:46 < Napkin> you really gave Tiamat and Snorg double HP on berserk, sorear?
11:46 <+sorear> Napkin: tiamat doesn't berserk
11:47 < Napkin> I thought he did.. but all others?
11:47 < Napkin> aren't they exactly strong already? that's a huge change
11:47 <+sorear> Snorg is unkillable in berserk unless you have a massively overpowered character; increasing his HP by 33% changes nothing
11:47 <+sorear> (Elf really needs to stop getting D:10 uniques)
11:48 < Napkin> :(
11:48 <+due> Rupert.
11:48 < Napkin> you do see, that you just strongly changed the balance, right?
11:48 <+sorear> 33% is not all that strongly
11:48 < Napkin> @?? Snorg
11:48 < Gretell> Snorg (T) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 96 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 20, 15, 15 | Res: magic(64) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1451.
11:48 <+sorear> they were getting hugely buffed HP before
11:48 <+due> !killsby snorg
11:48 < Henzell> 134 games for * (ckiller=snorg): 3x heteroy, 3x Chapayev, 2x Radicchio, 2x mafalda, 2x Speranza, 2x bmoore, 2x poop, 2x dirge23, 2x phenglei, 2x tabasco, 2x MrPeeps, 2x Londar, 2x ekaterin, 2x Pacra, 2x zyrkx, 1x philsnow, 1x DashNine, 1x Leibowitz, 1x bmacdonell, 1x wreck, 1x Chog, 1x Qui, 1x capslocke, 1x Elwin, 1x ronf, 1x sfogarty, 1x Slurm, 1x colubroid, 1x Errol1, 1x Edhardt, 1x Tityrus, 1x ...
11:48 <+sorear> now it's a little more, and the same
11:48 <+due> !lg * killer=snorg
11:48 < Henzell> 134. KHAAAAAAAN the Reanimator (L10 NaNe), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, slain by Snorg on D:12 on 2010-01-04, with 5906 points after 21983 turns and 1:10:07.
11:48 <+sorear> If you keep complaining I might implement berserk penalty for monsters
11:49 <+sorear> Then the symmetry would be complete
11:49 -!- syllogism- [i=syllogis@85-131-30-15.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:49 <+greensnark> Oh balls
11:50 < Napkin> I'm saying it's a huge change and shouldn't be just done on a monday morning at 11 o'clock in the morning - no?
11:50 <+greensnark> You want to fix monster AI as well, while you're at it?
11:50 <+sorear> correct, I code horribly at 11 o'clock
11:50 <+greensnark> And don't forget all kinds of things can go berserk now
11:50 <+greensnark> 2x maxhp is not the way to go
11:50 < Napkin> wtf, why do I keep talking to you
11:50 <+due> It can be reverted pretty easily.
11:50  * Napkin goes for breakfast *
11:51 <+greensnark> In any case, I want to put the proposal to drop maxhp *1.5 across the board to dpeg in the evening
11:51 <+kilobyte> due: I'm thinking about adding an array int[NUM_ARMOURS] and another one for weapons, similar to seen_spell[].  Perhaps we can do these two together so there's no risk of breaking marshalling.
11:51 <+sorear> to be honest I see this as a purely cosmetic change
11:52 <+sorear> berserk could make monsters completely unkillable and it would change nothing
11:52 <+kilobyte> greensnark: staff of chaos
11:52 <+due> Needle of wrath.
11:52 <+greensnark> Yeah, berserk is entirely too common :P
11:52 <+greensnark> Just like glass :P
11:52 <+due> Heh, needle of wrath is going to change.
11:52 <+due> Oh, and berserk bears.
11:53 <+greensnark> Berserk was made for bears!
11:53  * greensnark gives bears a pass.
11:53 <+due> :D
11:53  * greensnark gives bears a hug too.
11:53 <+due> kilobyte: I pushed the tag_major_version increasnig changes.
11:53 <+due> greensnark: And I fixed your bug.
11:53 <+greensnark> due: ?
11:53 < CIA-84> due * r37ca61fa33fb /crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Fix chaos beams causing "software bugs nibble at your feet" (Darshan)
11:53 < CIA-84> due * r7403a3dfc98e /crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h main.cc tags.h): Fix skills order issue with Sage card. (sorear)
11:54 <+greensnark> Oh, that bug, thanks
11:54 <+greensnark> It was actually zipcode's bug :)
11:54 <+due> Well.
11:54 <+due> Yo ureported it.
11:54 <+greensnark> Yay
11:54 <+due> I think I give up for tonight, though.
11:55 <+due> I feel grumpy and tired. So, g'night!
11:55 <+greensnark> You should move to a better timezone :P
11:55 <+greensnark> Night!
11:55 <+sorear> greensnark: if I were to do that big savefile rewrite this soon before 0.6, would anyone hate me?
11:55 <+greensnark> Hm, might be best to stabilise it in a branch first
11:55 <+greensnark> What's involved in savefile rewrite?
11:55 <+greensnark> One save file?
11:59 <+kilobyte> sorear: we would love you
12:00 <+kilobyte> ok, in the purely non-sexual way, that is.
12:01 <+sorear> greensnark: one save file, enums as strings, no dependance on system(), transactional integrity, possibly write-ahead logging but that's for last and I'm liable to run out of ambition
12:01 <+Keskitalo> Morning! ish
12:01 <+sorear> greensnark: absolutely on a branch
12:01 <+greensnark> sorear: Sounds good
12:01 <+greensnark> Mornin' Keskitalo!
12:02 <+sorear> Yo!
12:02 < syllogism-> how would players deal with buggy vaults and such if they cant delete level files
12:02 <+kilobyte> sorear: copy-write-update would be simpler than write-ahead logging
12:03 <+kilobyte> sorear: at the cost of a bit of space
12:03 <+greensnark> It would be nice if the save file could be manipulated from outside the game
12:03 <+greensnark> A sqlite db perhaps :P
12:03 <+sorear> kilobyte: copy-on-write makes saving prohibitively expensive, though
12:03 <+sorear> kilobyte: I want to save EVERY TURN (for hardware failure robustness)
12:04 <+sorear> kilobyte: er, copy-write-update makes
12:04 <+sorear> greensnark: I'll try that
12:04 <+greensnark> Might need to zlib compress to keep sizes small there
12:04 <+sorear> greensnark: no ZBLOBs though, so you'll need to find a tool that can handle zlib compressed data
12:04 <+sorear> (seriously, why is there no common command line filter for zlib (de)compression)
12:05 <+greensnark> sorear: Well, the main aim is to be able to delete from levels where place='D:27'
12:05 <+sorear> sure
12:05 <+kilobyte> sorear: I mean, when you write a chunk, you write it in a separate part of the file, and only when the chunk is complete, you overwrite the pointer to it, freeing the old version
12:06 <+kilobyte> Napkin: that your unattented updates thingy, did it pull due's TAG_MAJOR change already?
12:06 <+sorear> kilobyte: that doesn't help make saving instant enough to happen every turn
12:06 <+greensnark> I don't think he's set it to run automatically
12:07 <+greensnark> I do think saving every turn is overkill :P
12:07 <+sorear> kilobyte: I'm going to be using a SQLite DB for the savefiles, at least for the prototype
12:07 < Napkin> the repository mirror has the change already, I guess
12:07 < Napkin> why, kilobyte?
12:10 <+kilobyte> Napkin: I was lazy and thought I might sneak a save file incompability without messing with minor versions
12:10 <+kilobyte> Napkin: but oh well, it's not like comparing the minor is such a big thing
12:11 <+greensnark> If it's nontrivial, just bump major again
12:11 <+greensnark> Not worth writing shim code
12:11 <+kilobyte> #if (TAG_MAJOR_VERSION == 14)
12:11 <+kilobyte> if (th.getMinorVersion() >= 1)
12:11 <+kilobyte> {
12:11 <+kilobyte> #endif
12:11 <+greensnark> Next major version bump will remove the shim anyway
12:11 < Napkin> do it, kilobyte 
12:12 < Napkin> the version running CDO hasn't been upgraded yet
12:14 <+kilobyte> no need to hurry, I'll better test my change thoroughly; save compat is just a matter of not unmarshalling the array if minor is 0
12:15 <+Keskitalo> Hmh, internet connection is sleepy this afternoon..
12:17 <+Keskitalo> sorear: Looking forward to checking out the better poisoned ammo in a game!
12:18 <+kilobyte> new needle brands are PLENTIFUL
12:29 < CIA-84> greensnark * ra84fefbc093f /crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Fix javelineers and master archers producing warnings about not using attack energy when they attack in melee (due, kilobyte).
12:29 < CIA-84> greensnark * r21e755bcfd70 /crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Weaken merfolk javelineers slightly (msl cost increased to 100%).
12:30 < syllogism-> how common are the new brands? Currently they are like curare so they ignore MR and don't require much skill to use
12:32 < syllogism-> also aww another nerf
12:32 <+sorear> greensnark: noooo, not my precious javelineers
12:32 <+greensnark> Well, people are calling Shoals as tough as late Elf :P
12:33 < syllogism-> I found it fine :P
12:33 < syllogism-> and maybe it should be tough
12:33 <+sorear> greensnark: we don't need more easy branches
12:33 <+greensnark> I don't have any problem with it being tougher than Swamp, at least
12:33 <+sorear> let's make Shoals slightly more difficult than Slime
12:33 <+greensnark> :P
12:33 <+sorear> and Swamp slightly less
12:33 <+greensnark> I did want to add merfolk champions to Shoal:$ :P
12:33 <+kilobyte> current Swamp and Snake definitely don't deserve having runes
12:34 <+greensnark> Where would you put the runes?
12:34 < syllogism-> put them all into tomb
12:34 <+greensnark> I think they do deserve the runes
12:34 < Napkin> omg.. you geeks!
12:34 <+greensnark> They're attainable by new players
12:34 <+greensnark> And getting a rune gives them a sense of accomplishment
12:34 <+greensnark> I think that's pretty important
12:35 <+greensnark> It's not like it's completely trivial to get the Snake rune
12:35 <+greensnark> You do need to have some ability to play
12:35 <+kilobyte> the problem is, you can get three runes from easy branches, and you have to do the easy branches to get XP
12:35 <+greensnark> Not much for MDFi, granted :P
12:35 <+greensnark> That's fine!
12:35 <+greensnark> If they get three runes from easy branches, they still haven't won the game, right?
12:35 <+sorear> kilobyte: you don't have to do any branches for xp, you filthy completionist
12:35 <+greensnark> They have to go get the orb
12:35 <+sorear> greensnark: getting runes is a formality
12:36 <+sorear> greensnark: if you have <2 branch ends cleared, you don't have the resists for Zot
12:36 <+sorear> IMHO hells and pan are too hard
12:36 <+sorear> we see so little diversity because there's no competition
12:36 <+kilobyte> sorear: even for a minimal win, you do need both xp and resists
12:36  * Napkin totally agreed with greensnark *
12:36 <+greensnark> I don't mind having hard runes, but the problem is there's a huge jump in difficulty
12:37 < syllogism-> crawl needs a hard mode that boosts monster stats
12:37 <+greensnark> And the lategame runes are all so similar
12:37 <+greensnark> Demons demons demons
12:37 < Twinge> Man, I remember coming down into Snake:5 to an entrance vault with all sorts of guardian and greater nagas... first time I went down into snake:5 I think.  That was *not* trivial ;O
12:37 <+sorear> most characters *can't* do the Hells and Pan, so they're stuck with slimy, serpentine, decaying, silver - pick 3
12:37 <+sorear> pick 3 out of 4 is not interesting
12:37 < syllogism-> they can do them, it's just risky
12:37 < syllogism-> as it should
12:37 <+kilobyte> slime is a lot harder than the other three
12:37 <+sorear> back in 0.3, there was a lot more diversity in runes
12:38 <+kilobyte> well, V:8 itself is hard, but V:1-7 not
12:38 <+sorear> vault is a lot harder than the other three, if you ask me
12:38 < Napkin> I just hope the games stays playable for the public too!
12:38 <+kilobyte> and V:8 has a huge stack of loot you really don't want to pass
12:38 <+sorear> Napkin: hey, are you listening, I'm advocating making more accessible runes
12:38 <+sorear> kilobyte: all the hard branches do, it's how we balance hard branches
12:39 <+sorear> Tartarus has lots of nice loot that I'm never happy about passing up
12:39 < Napkin> yes, and I value your input on this highly
12:39 <+kilobyte> for example, Pan is doable only if you're spoiled.  Especially with regards to how you exit it.
12:39 <+greensnark> Pan is a mess
12:39 <+sorear> you look for an exit
12:39 <+sorear> that's what I do
12:40 <+sorear> works like a charm
12:40 < syllogism-> yes i rarely use distortion
12:40 <+kilobyte> my first (nearly) complete game, I fully explored 83 levels because I was looking for magical rune
12:40 <+greensnark> Pan needs more exits, and it needs to lose the infinite levels thing
12:40 <+kilobyte> and didn't see a single exit
12:40 < syllogism-> greensnark: nooo :P
12:40 <+kilobyte> just a couple of portals to Abyss
12:41 <+greensnark> The only reason Pan has infinite levels is because Erik Piper had a fit when we proposed making it throw you out after, say, 9 levels :P
12:41 <+greensnark> I believe he wanted Pan available to farm in case he got a lot of bad mutations :)
12:42  * due back for a bit.
12:42 <+greensnark> Yay due
12:42 <+due> I've never gotten a single character to a level where I felt comfortable doing any of the Hells.
12:42 < Napkin> The occational player doesn't even touch pan
12:42 < syllogism-> I'm definitely against making it finite. You can make it much easier to exit, but I don't see any reason to make it finite
12:42 <+due> They're extremely daunting for new players, and difficult to comprehend.
12:42 <+greensnark> The Hells are really a sharp jump in difficulty
12:42 <+greensnark> Primarily the Hell effects constantly messing you up
12:42 <+due> Which I think is pretty unacceptable.
12:42 <+greensnark> And the silly stat death crap :P
12:43 < Napkin> i found hell boring
12:43 < syllogism-> they are supposed to be challenging
12:43 <+greensnark> The Vestibule or the actual Hells?
12:43 <+due> Well, part of the issue with hell is it's basically "find your way to the $".
12:43 <+sorear> hells should be nerfed, swamp/shoals should be buffed, Pan should be made to scale with time spent
12:43 < Napkin> being 4 levels long a plaything for the demon in 5th
12:43 <+greensnark> We should get rid of stat death already
12:43 < syllogism-> oh no new players might not survive Hells
12:43 <+due> "without dying stupidly or being abyssed instantly".
12:43 < Napkin> no loot whatsoever
12:43 < syllogism-> it's an optional challenge branch
12:44 <+due> syllogism-: Apparently not in some people's minds.
12:44 < syllogism-> yes they are wrong
12:44 <+sorear> syllogism-: there's a dearth of non-easy non-challenge branches
12:44 <+due> Tomb is inordinantly difficult with death curses, and Slime is annoying because of acid blobs and TRJ.
12:44 <+sorear> I'd like to make Hells a bit easier (leaving Pan in the sky) and Snake/Shoals a lot harder
12:45 <+due> Snake branch ends or snake in general?
12:45 <+sorear> this will balance out the rune avalability curve
12:45 < Napkin> snake is hard already :(
12:45 <+due> It takes me upwards of 4k turns to clear the Snake branch ends.
12:45 <+sorear> due: I meant Swamp
12:45 <+due> Zh.
12:45 <+due> *Ah.
12:45 <+greensnark> Shoals is harder than Swamp :P
12:45 <+due> Make it less annoying first.
12:45 <+greensnark> I can't make it as easy as Swamp without being deadly dull :P
12:45 <+due> Alternately, dumpp Swamp.
12:45 <+greensnark> We could make the Swamp layout less visual-noisy
12:46 <+greensnark> But the main drag is the water critters killing the fun :P
12:46 <+sorear> Swamp is dull because it's so easy
12:46 <+due> It's not so much visual-noisy, it's the fact that swamp worms can kill yo in one hit.
12:46 <+sorear> People only complain because the layout stops keymashing
12:46 <+sorear> let's make that impossible
12:46 <+due> @??swamp worm
12:46 < Gretell> swamp worm (w) | Speed: 12 | HD: 5 | Health: 25-50 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 20 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 145.
12:46 <+sorear> swamp worms should fly, staying on land shouldn't help
12:46 <+due> Heh.
12:46 <+sorear> and they should spit miasma balls
12:46 <+kilobyte> due: only if you walk in shallow water
12:47 <+due> kilobyte: ... You can't *not* walk into shallow water in Swamp.
12:47 < Napkin> snake, swamp/shoals, vault for runes - elves for loot - and then I get out of there - because everything else will kill me instantly or mutate me or eat up my inventory.
12:47 <+kilobyte> when I see any monster around and I'm not flying, I move to solid ground immediately
12:47 <+due> It's not always an option.
12:47 <+kilobyte> since everything in the Swamp gets mad bonuses in water
12:47  * sorear ducks out
12:48 <+due> And having to always move out of shallow water because they get mad water boni is annoying.
12:48 < Napkin> they have water boni even if you fly/levitate?
12:48 <+due> No
12:48 <+kilobyte> no double damage, but they retain their speed boost
12:48 < Napkin> *phew*
12:49 <+kilobyte> you don't want hydras to have their tails wet
12:49 <+due> Also, hydras speeding up in water is nasty.
12:49 < Napkin> heh, reminds me - hydras in water look like plants in shallow water in Tiles :D
12:50 < syllogism-> !lg * place=swamp killer=hydra
12:50 < Henzell> 70. b0rsuk the Shatterer (L19 OgFi), worshipper of Yredelemnul, slain by a hydra on Swamp:1 on 2008-07-16, with 271678 points after 90760 turns and 14:28:01.
12:50 < syllogism-> 2008??
12:50 < syllogism-> oh
12:50 < syllogism-> !lg * place=swamp killer=~hydra
12:50 < Henzell> 222. Kipple the Gelid (L16 MfIE), worshipper of Sif Muna, slain by an eight-headed hydra zombie on Swamp:5 on 2010-01-04, with 94548 points after 37491 turns and 10:11:04.
12:51 <+kilobyte> !lg * place=swamp
12:51 < Henzell> 834. Kipple the Gelid (L16 MfIE), worshipper of Sif Muna, slain by an eight-headed hydra zombie on Swamp:5 on 2010-01-04, with 94548 points after 37491 turns and 10:11:04.
12:51 <+greensnark> Sounds like the undead Swamp end
12:51 <+greensnark> !lg * Swamp -tv
12:51 < Henzell> 834. Kipple, XL16 MfIE, T:37491 requested for FooTV.
12:52 <+kilobyte> !lg * place=swamp killer=~hydra killer!=~zombie killer!=~spectral
12:52 < Henzell> 222. Kipple the Gelid (L16 MfIE), worshipper of Sif Muna, slain by an eight-headed hydra zombie on Swamp:5 on 2010-01-04, with 94548 points after 37491 turns and 10:11:04.
12:53 <+greensnark> !lg * swamp ckiller=hydra
12:53 < Henzell> 214. PoopBridge the Eclecticist (L15 DEWz), worshipper of Sif Muna, slain by an eight-headed hydra on Swamp:2 on 2009-12-30, with 101624 points after 71887 turns and 5:43:14.
12:53 <+kilobyte> only 6 zombies then
12:54 <+greensnark> Heh, was he not even looking at his hp? :P
12:55 < syllogism-> that was his seventh game on cao
12:57 <+greensnark> Hey, Ilsuiw called the tide in Eifel'sgame
12:58 <+greensnark> But mostly the javelineer and impaler in her escort did all the damage
12:58 <+greensnark> And her water elementals stole the kill
12:58 < syllogism-> he cancelled blink
12:58 < syllogism-> probably thought it wouldn't take a turn
12:58 <+greensnark> Mesm blocking blink/teleport is nasty
12:59 < syllogism-> oh it does that?
12:59 <+greensnark> Yeah, you can't blink away from the mesmerisr
12:59 <+greensnark> Or even ctele away :P
12:59 < syllogism-> that makes no sense :P
12:59 <+greensnark> Did you see heteroy's drowning? :P
12:59 < syllogism-> no
12:59 <+greensnark> !lg heteroy Swamp -tv
12:59 < Henzell> 11. heteroy, XL12 SpCK, T:12606 requested for FooTV.
12:59 <+greensnark> Er
12:59 <+greensnark> !lg heteroy Shoal -tv
12:59 < Henzell> 4. heteroy, XL11 DDAr, T:16262 requested for FooTV.
12:59 <+greensnark> !lg heteroy Swamp -tv:cancel
12:59 < Henzell> 11. heteroy, XL12 SpCK, T:12606 cancel requested for FooTV.
13:01 < syllogism-> what is he doing :P
13:02 <+greensnark> Funniest Shoals death yet :P
13:02 <+greensnark> I like how he hurried out over deep water to get away from Harold
13:04 < syllogism-> @?? rupert
13:04 < Gretell> Rupert (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 123 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 21 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(106) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2993 | Sp: paralyse, confuse, berserker rage.
13:07 <+greensnark> I see due just got whacked by his favourite lady elf
13:08 <+greensnark> Eek, I really have to go pay my bills now
13:09 < Napkin> run!
13:14 <+due> Simulacrum only summons a simulacrum?
13:15 <+due> I see why it's so useless.
13:15 < syllogism-> it can summon several
13:16 <+due> Ah
13:16 < syllogism-> at high power you probably get around one per chunk
13:19 <+due> Apparently I'm overreacting a lot today.
13:22 < Mu_> rest your heart
13:23 <+due> Yeah, I'm off.
13:23 <+due> Might not be around tomorrow. :)
13:24 < Mu_> laterz
13:25 < Napkin> take care, due!
13:26 < Napkin> ---
13:26 < Napkin> item_use.cc:1677: warning: ‘int _item_to_skill_level(const item_def*)’ defined but not used
13:27 < Napkin> ---
13:28 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2005-g21e755b (15.0)
13:28 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:30 < Twinge> 05:30] <Xiberia> i just started a DSFi on trunk
13:30 < Twinge> 05:30] <Xiberia> and instead of armour and shield
13:30 < Twinge> 05:30] <Xiberia> it has throwing and stabbing
13:31 < Napkin> hehe, true
13:31 < Napkin> my MDFi has Throwing & Stabbing
13:35 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO back to: 0.6.0-a1-0c8fe01 (14.0)
13:42 <+kilobyte> uhm right, a debug spriggan just trained armour when a hobgoblin missed me (in a robe)
13:43 < syllogism-> that's helpful
13:43  * greensnark is back.
13:43 < syllogism-> too bad napkin downgraded
13:43 < Napkin> wb, greensnark!
13:43 <+greensnark> Aaand my electicity bill paid!
13:44 < Napkin> alright \o/
13:44 <+greensnark> Apparently they're open till 9, I thought they closed at 6 :P
13:44 < Napkin> hehe
13:45 <+greensnark> Skeel bugs we have, do we
13:45 <+kilobyte> about the skill bug, I guess it's name only
13:45 <+greensnark> Oh, due just forgot to remove Darts from the names
13:45 < Napkin> yes sir, ma'am
13:45 <+greensnark> Yeah
13:46 < CIA-84> greensnark * r30dc9be38427 /crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Fix skill display bug with Darts skill removed.
13:46 <+kilobyte> having enums and arrays indexed by those sucks
13:46 < Napkin> safe to upgrade?
13:47 <+greensnark> Actually now that we're using Perl in the build proces
13:47 <+greensnark> We can generate a lot of these craptacular enums/string arrays
13:47 <+greensnark> Napkin: Yes, seems ok here
13:47 < Napkin> thanks <3
13:50 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2007-g30dc9be (15.1)
14:01 <+greensnark> Why does the simulacrum entry keep mentioning my name :P
14:03 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."]
14:04 < syllogism-> Did you edit it? :P
14:06 <+greensnark> It's time to bury the dead past :P
14:06 <+greensnark> Literally dead
14:06 <+greensnark> I mean, that spriggan is no more
14:06 <+greensnark> He has joined the choir invisible
14:06 <+greensnark> That is an ex-spriggan
14:07 < syllogism-> Just saw that sketch
14:08 <+greensnark> Yeah, you have to actually see it to dig it
14:08 <+greensnark> When Mik Clarke added the parrot sketch to the Lethe patch, I could see no point in it :P
14:08 <+greensnark> I saw the sketch only much later
14:08 < syllogism-> monty python almost the truth lawyers cut doc :P
14:08 <+greensnark> :D
14:10 < syllogism-> heh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrot_Sketch_Not_Included_-_20_Years_of_Monty_Python
14:11 <+greensnark> Hah
14:19 < CIA-84> kilobyte * r351147f56190 /crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Track all seen weapon/armour base types and their brands, for acq purposes.
14:22 -!- by [n=rob@g225122029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:22 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ
14:22 <+by> hello
14:24 <+greensnark> by!
14:24 <+greensnark> One of these days you have to tell us why you use "by"
14:24 <+by> hi greensnark
14:24 <+by> you'd be disappointed probably; I'll have to keep it a mystery
14:25 <+kilobyte> uhm, that commit was made an hour ago
14:25 <+kilobyte> by: meow!
14:27 <+greensnark> CIA has been known to have hiccups
14:27 <+greensnark> It's a lot better than in the early days though
14:28 <+greensnark> When the service was down 40% of the time
14:28 <+by> hi kilobyte 
14:36 < cbus> re
14:37 < cbus> are there always 3 branch entries in lair now (snake, slime, shoals||swap)?
14:38 <+greensnark> Yes
14:39 <+greensnark> No Swamp in trunk currently
14:39 < cbus> so guaranteed shoals?
14:39 <+greensnark> The lineup is Snake, Slime, Shoals in trunk
14:39 <+greensnark> Yeah, for testing
14:39 <+greensnark> For release it'll go back to Swamp/Shoals 50/50
14:39 < cbus> btw, monster ghouls eat entire corpses in 1 turn
14:39 <+greensnark> They have mad powers
14:40 < cbus> bug? :)
14:40 <+greensnark> No :P
14:40 <+greensnark> Monster asymmetry privileges
14:40 <+greensnark> They have a platinum asymmetry privilege card :)
14:40 < cbus> the game is supposed to be symmetric according to someone
14:40 <+greensnark> Symmetry in meaningful circs yeah :P
14:40 < syllogism-> you dont want it to be symmetric :P
14:40 <+greensnark> Fortunately "meaningful" is subjective :P
14:41 <+greensnark> Powder could make things really symmetric because it was written from ground up and designed with that in mind
14:41 <+greensnark> In Crawl it would be a major change
14:41 <+greensnark> As in: full game rewrite :P
14:44 < cbus> I want my corpses
14:48 <+greensnark> cbus: Did you see "Let the right one in"? Is it worth watching?
14:49 < cbus> greensnark, nope, haven't seen it
14:49 < cbus> never been a big fan of swedish movies :)
14:49 <+greensnark> :P
14:49 <+greensnark> I got a recommendation to watch it, but this is from a friend who likes artsy movies, so I'm wary :P
14:49 < syllogism-> bergman is pretty good :P
14:50 < cbus> are needles overpowered nowadays?
14:50 < syllogism-> yes
14:50 < cbus> felt like paralysis and the like are very powerful :)
14:56 < syllogism-> turns out nothing resists them :P
14:56 < syllogism-> my level 1 character paralysed cerebov
14:56 < syllogism-> 0 skills
14:56 < cbus> :D
14:56 <+greensnark> I think they're still WIP, no?
14:57 < syllogism-> yes
14:57 <+greensnark> Can we add feedback to the appropriate wiki page so it doesn't get lost?
14:57  * greensnark looks for wiki page.
14:57 <+greensnark> Oh crap, I'm in Chrome :P
14:57 < cbus> are you supposed to have to put serious XP in them (blowguns) to get it to work?
14:57 < cbus> or are they meant as some kind of nice support tool?
14:57 <+greensnark> I wish Firefox wasn't such a slug of a browser
14:59 <+greensnark> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:issue:41&s[]=ranged&s[]=combat
14:59 <+greensnark> Please add notes there
15:02 < syllogism-> high hd monsters stay paralysed only for a turn or two it seems
15:04 <+kilobyte> how come paralyse needles work vs those with rPois?
15:04 < syllogism-> for some reason when I try to make needles of sleeping it gives me needles of paralysis  instead
15:04 < syllogism-> it even says it created 30 needles of sleeping
15:05 < syllogism-> hmm oh they stack
15:05 < syllogism-> and magically transform
15:05 < syllogism-> nice bug
15:06 < syllogism-> can someone test it, just to make sure it's not just my build :P
15:07 < syllogism-> poison needles stack and thus transform into curare if you've some curare needles in your inventory
15:09 < syllogism-> yes, tried it on cdo (assassins start with both)
15:09 < cbus> what does needles of sleeping do?
15:09 < cbus> like EH?
15:09 < syllogism-> dropped poison needles, picked them up and they stacked with curare
15:09 < syllogism-> cbus: yes
15:09 < cbus> syllogism-, can you reapply them (unlike EH)?
15:10 < syllogism-> yes
15:10 < syllogism-> should I file that bug?
15:12 <+greensnark> Yes please
15:12 < syllogism-> works with any projectile it seems
15:13 <+greensnark> Probably related to the missile stacking change for unided missiles
15:13 <+greensnark> Can't look at it right now, but if you file it won't get lost :)
15:24 < syllogism-> cbus: I recommend playing an assassin :P
15:25 < cbus> syllogism-, got a pretty far ahead GhFi :)
15:25 < cbus> but the needle change sounds like something that will make SpAs alot of more fun
15:26 < Ashenzari> Missile stacking broken (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=331) by syllogism
15:26 < syllogism-> cbus: but if you play now you can get almost infinite needles of any type you want as long as you find one
15:30 < syllogism-> hmm that missile stacking change was 3 months ago
15:31 < syllogism-> maybe it's due to that chunk stacking commit
15:34 <+greensnark> Yeah, it's the chunk stackage
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15:40 < CIA-84> greensnark * rf1fdc1667617 /crawl-ref/source/items.cc: [Mantis 331] Fix inverted chunk-stacking logic that caused missiles of different brands to stack (syllogism).
15:41 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-142-47.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
15:43 <+kilobyte> but hey, at least my code compared chunk ages exactly :p
15:44 <+kilobyte> syllogism-: using this bug, you could switch only curare<->poison and the new brands among themselves
15:44 < syllogism-> yes
15:44 < syllogism-> no
15:45 < syllogism-> also arrows and items with different enchantment
15:45 <+greensnark> The ?: condition was also using the plus and plus2 checks because of precedence
15:45 <+greensnark> I parenthesised the condition as well
15:45 <+kilobyte> oh well :p
15:46 < CIA-84> by messagewindow * re36ed2cdb30d /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Update TODO list.
15:46 < CIA-84> by messagewindow * r5fa07b8e6e7f /crawl-ref/source/ (message.cc message.h stuff.cc): Display message window from redraw_screen.
15:46 < CIA-84> by messagewindow * r7b2434cfae62 /crawl-ref/source/menu.cc: Make print_formatted_paragraph a straight call to mpr.
15:46 < CIA-84> by messagewindow * r9767ea5576dd /crawl-ref/source/ (tilesdl.cc tilesdl.h): Remove tiles message_out.
15:46 < CIA-84> by messagewindow * r31ec56c1823d /crawl-ref/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Replace option delay_message_clear by clear_messages.
15:46 < CIA-84> by messagewindow * re74d8b6975e7 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Update message.cc todo list.
15:46 < CIA-84> by messagewindow * rdbc5b31287b7 /crawl-ref/source/ (24 files): Merge branch 'master' into messagewindow
15:46 < CIA-84> by messagewindow * r16654313402d /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Make cursor placement also work for non-full msgwin.
15:47 < CIA-84> by messagewindow * r22c5ea7fdd97 /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Output prompts directly.
15:47 < CIA-84> by messagewindow * rcce4866b9b92 /crawl-ref/source/libutil.cc: Fix crash in line_reader.
15:54 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
15:57 <+by> somewhat unexpectedly, branch messagewindow works with tiles
15:57 < Eronarn> greensnark: Bring back the old javelineers as a new merfolk unique
15:59 <+greensnark> Javelineers are not a whole lot weaker than the original
15:59 <+greensnark> The main weakening was their drop in HD
15:59 <+greensnark> Impalers though...
15:59 <+greensnark> They got a huge nerf in the teeth :P
16:00 <+greensnark> by: Yay
16:00 <+greensnark> What does the messagewindow branch do?
16:00 <+greensnark> Use a curses window for the messages?
16:00 < syllogism-> @?? merfolk impaler
16:00 < Gretell> merfolk impaler (m) | Speed: 10 (atk: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 60-108 | AC/EV: 0/23 | Damage: 24 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(48) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1075.
16:00 <+greensnark> syllogism-: I'm referring to 34->24 damage for impalers
16:00 < syllogism-> oh that
16:01 <+by> greensnark: it explicitly doesn't
16:01 <+by> just cprintf/cgotoxy etc; it's backend-agnostic
16:02 <+greensnark> Oh, cool
16:02 <+greensnark> I hope to get time during vacation for the great AC nerf
16:02 < Iainuki> greensnark: :P
16:02 <+greensnark> But I know very little about the combat code, so... :P
16:02 < Iainuki> What's going on with that?
16:02 <+greensnark> Iainuki: I have yet to read the thread :P
16:02 <+greensnark> Wall of text beat me into submission :P
16:03 < Iainuki> :)
16:03 < Iainuki> Yes.
16:03 < Eronarn> If you don't like walls of text, what're you doing in roguelikes?
16:04 <+by> roguelikes do structured output
16:04 <+greensnark> I like waffle walls
16:04 < Iainuki> I haven't had the ability to keep on top of these giant arguments.
16:04 <+greensnark> Delicious waffles
16:04 <+greensnark> Waffle waffle waffles
16:04 < Iainuki> Mmm, waffles.
16:04  * greensnark waffles.
16:04 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-183-93.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:04 < Eronarn> Iainuki: The wiki has led to so much more wall of text output
16:04  * by got a waffle making thingy for christmas
16:12 < syllogism-> I'd rather eat pancakes :P
16:13 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
16:13 < Eronarn> syllogism-: You have to go to Shoals for that.
16:14 < syllogism-> <Zicher> Ummm .. No Okawaru altar in Temple? WTF?
16:14 < Iainuki> ?
16:14 < syllogism-> teeheee
16:14 < Eronarn> syllogism-: <3
16:16 <+kilobyte> beh, MDFi should be denied the usage of Okawaru
16:17 < Eronarn> Speaking of dwarves and gods
16:18 < Eronarn> I seriously don't get dpeg's balance proposals for DD
16:20 < Eronarn> Staves and Rods should really be separate acquirements, or something, the 25% chance of getting a stave as a rod-user sucks
16:20 < Eronarn> Either that we or should add more evocation-usable non-fixedart staves
16:21 < Iainuki> Yes.
16:21 <+doy> Eronarn: which balance proposals?
16:21 < Eronarn> doy: Remove the wand of healing, make damage shaving apply to healing received, etc.
16:22 <+doy> damage shaving applying to healing received was my proposal, that dpeg didn't like
16:22 <+doy> (:
16:22 <+by> maybe we should just kill damage shaving
16:23 < Eronarn> Oh, that was the other one I hated
16:23 <+doy> it's the only dd proposal i've seen that i do like though
16:23 <+doy> the rest don't really make sense
16:23 < Eronarn> doy: Blocking god healing is the only one that makes any sense at all based on my DD experience
16:23 <+doy> Eronarn: sure, but that seems unnecessarily harsh and arbitrary
16:24 <+by> Eronarn: and vampiric weapons?
16:24 < Eronarn> by: and vamp draining
16:24 < Eronarn> Anything non-consumable, and piety doesn't count as consumable (except possibly in special cases)
16:24 < Eronarn> doy: I disagree. It's not particularly harsh: most combos will not have gods that provide healing *anyways*. And it's not arbitrary: "all healing comes at a permanent cost"
16:25 <+doy> Eronarn: but that's not true
16:25 < CIA-84> kilobyte * rad552ae6735e /crawl-ref/source/ (effects.cc makeitem.cc makeitem.h): Try to avoid repeats when acquiring already seen weapons/armour.
16:25 < CIA-84> kilobyte * ra9610912e739 /crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Bias non-divine weapon acquirement towards better items.
16:25 <+doy> most dd combos do have gods that provide healing
16:25 <+doy> (:
16:25 < Eronarn> doy: Yes, because they're actually a *weak* race in the absence of a healing god :)
16:25 < Eronarn> A healing god means that it's really two races, "race that can't heal but gets awesome intrinsics" and "race that gets awesome intrinsics"
16:25 <+doy> which is why i think your proposal is unnecesarily harsh
16:26 <+doy> we don't really need them to become a 'weak' race
16:26 < Eronarn> doy: Keep in mind that all the other proposals would make them an even weaker race for non-healing-god combos
16:26 < cbus> does regen still work with DD?
16:26 < cbus> (the trog ability)
16:26 <+doy> cbus: yes
16:26 < Eronarn> And that all the healing god combos would still be viable choices even if they didn't provide healing
16:26 < cbus> does the spell or ring?
16:26 <+doy> i don't think the ring does?
16:27 <+doy> i'm not sure about those
16:27 <+kilobyte> I'd cut MD's healing before touching DD's one :p
16:27 < Eronarn> Makhleb gives you MP to help with your lower MP from recharging and lets you wear armor, Ely lets you wear armor and pacification is very powerful, TSO would still be totally viable, Kiku would still be totally viable
16:27 < Eronarn> Trog is the only one there is even any question on IMO
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16:27 < Eronarn> And I'm not sure why Trog needs to heal any more than, say, Oka does
16:28 <+doy> trog's hand gives mr too
16:28 <+doy> which is something i use it for a reasonable amount
16:28 <+kilobyte> Oka worshippers who are not broken MDs can cast regen themselves
16:28 <+kilobyte> Trog's don't
16:28 < Eronarn> kilobyte: I mean from a DD perspective, specifically
16:29 <+kilobyte> Remember, Trog was balanced with normal races in mind, not DDs.
16:29 <+by> why are DD too strong? shaving? good aptitudes?
16:29 < Eronarn> by: They are too strong because their racial disadvantage is that they can't heal except they actually can but only if you play them in X way
16:29 < Eronarn> "oh no, playing them in X way is broken, better nerf the race"
16:30 <+doy> it's actually pretty similar to the spriggan situation
16:30 <+doy> except moreso
16:30 <+kilobyte> you need to give them _some_ way to heal
16:30 < cbus> drop em ;)
16:30 <+kilobyte> god healing is costly
16:30 <+doy> kilobyte: they get a starting wand of healing and intrinsic recharging
16:30 < Eronarn> kilobyte: Ely healing is not costly at *all*
16:31 <+doy> i used that like twice when playing as a berserker
16:31 <+doy> because trog regen covered all of my healing needs
16:31 < Eronarn> It's totally doable with vamp draining, even
16:31 <+kilobyte> Eronarn: that's because of the new pacification nonsense, it wasn't here when DDs were being designed
16:31 < Eronarn> kilobyte: This misses the root issue though, it's not a problem with Ely, or Kiku, or Maklheb; it's a problem with DD
16:32 < Eronarn> The problem is that they can be healed by gods/vampiricism, and thus negate their balancing factor
16:32 <+kilobyte> if you have to sac piles of weapons for a single heals, Ely's healing is too weak to sustain them
16:32 < Eronarn> It would be like if Swiftness *set* your speed to 12 instead of +2
16:32 < Eronarn> Naga AE would be the brokenest class
16:32 <+kilobyte> they _need_ to be healed by gods/vampiricism, that's their design idea
16:33 < Eronarn> It's a boring design idea because it limits their options dramatically for no particular flavor reason; limiting them to wand/potion healing works better in practice, to boot
16:33 <+doy> kilobyte: well then, from that perspective, damage shaving should go
16:34 <+kilobyte> Trog's healing is pretty limited, Makhleb's requires going to a fight which is not a good idea when you're low, necromancy can't get you through the full game since most branches have undead/demons only
16:35 <+kilobyte> you need some means to heal before you get a god; I'd leave damage shaving at a small level
16:35 < Eronarn> kilobyte: Necromancy prevents you from needing charges until endgame. Getting rid of the starting wand won't work because you're basically guaranteed to get a wand of healing, especially with the wand acquirement changes
16:36 < Eronarn> And even then the idea of balancing a race around "they can't do hell as easily" is silly
16:36 < Eronarn> And needing some means to heal before you get a god just pigeonholes them even further
16:36 < Iainuki> DD are virtually impossible to balance in the current game state.
16:36 <+doy> they have their starting wand of healing to heal before they get a god
16:37 < Eronarn> They are an interesting enough race with no-healing, recharge, and a starting wand. Making them play specific kinds of gods or roles just because that's what the original design doc said is stupid
16:37 < Eronarn> It doesn't work in practice, and to make it work would require sacrificing other interesting builds
16:38 <+doy> and the original issue here that brought this all up is that they are too strong when played with healing gods or whatever
16:38 <+doy> their win rate is literally three times that of the next highest race
16:38 <+kilobyte> (gone)
16:39 <+by> doy: how about mid-late-game win rate?
16:40 <+by> with shaving and the wand, no DD can die early
16:40 <+doy> !lg * race=dd xl>=18 ktyp=winning
16:40 < Henzell> 64. hyperbolic the Severer (L23 DDCr), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2009-12-31, with 1571044 points after 64263 turns and 5:39:37.
16:40 < Eronarn> !lg * race=DD god=Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>20
16:40 <+doy> !lg * race=dd xl>=18
16:40 < Henzell> 70. hyperbolic the Severer (L23 DDCr), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2009-12-31, with 1571044 points after 64263 turns and 5:39:37.
16:40 < Henzell> 141. hyperbolic the Severer (L23 DDCr), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2009-12-31, with 1571044 points after 64263 turns and 5:39:37.
16:41 < Eronarn> what's the sorting command again
16:41 <+doy> so overall late game win rate is about 40%
16:41 <+doy> not sure how that compares
16:41 < Eronarn> ??sort
16:41 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled sort in my learndb.
16:41 < Eronarn> ??lg[2]
16:41 <+greensnark> !lg * win xl>=18 
16:41 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled lg[2] in my learndb.
16:41 < Henzell> 2118. hyperbolic the Hacker (L22 VpCK), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-01-03, with 1500542 points after 67889 turns and 7:04:42.
16:41 < Eronarn> ??lg
16:41 < Henzell> listgame[1/5]: Fields: src (cao/cdo), v (game version), sc, name, race, cls, char, xl, sk (skill), sklev, title, ktyp, killer, kaux, place, br, lvl (br depth), ltyp (D, Abyss, ...), hp, mhp, mmhp, dam, str, int, dex, god, piety, pen (penance), start, end, dur (game time), turn, urune, nrune, tmsg, vmsg, alpha, splat. See {listgame examples}.
16:41 <+greensnark> !lg * xl>=18 
16:41 < Henzell> 5968. cross the Farming Severer (L26 MuFi), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by a lich (bolt of fire) on D:27 on 2010-01-04, with 524323 points after 1234696 turns and 16:56:33.
16:41 < ais523> Eronarn: you probably want ??lg[2/5]
16:42 < ais523> um
16:42 < ais523> ??listgame[2/5]
16:42 < Eronarn> !lg * race=DD god=Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>10 sort=xl
16:42 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled listgame25 in my learndb.
16:42 < Henzell> Unknown selector: sort
16:42 < Eronarn> was it csort?
16:42 < ais523> hmm, that's weird, it seemed to strip out all the punctuation
16:42 <+doy> ??lg[2]
16:42 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled lg[2] in my learndb.
16:42 <+greensnark> !lg * race=DD god=Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>10 s=xl
16:42 < Henzell> 282 games for * (race=DD god=Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>10): 54x 11, 36x 12, 27x 13, 26x 27, 23x 14, 22x 15, 15x 16, 12x 19, 12x 24, 9x 20, 9x 26, 8x 17, 7x 23, 7x 22, 6x 18, 5x 21, 4x 25
16:42 < Eronarn> ??listgame[2]
16:42 < Henzell> listgame[2/5]: Cheatsheet: http://www.chaosforge.org/crawl/index.php?title=Lg Operators: =, !=, <, >, <=, >=, =~, !~. E.g. !lg ktyp=winning, !lg * start>=20080801, !lg * kaux=~reaching. Use x=<field> to show the value of the named field: !lg * max=dam x=dam
16:42 < Eronarn> thanks greensnark <3
16:43 < Eronarn> So uh yeah that distribution is kind of nuts.
16:43 <+doy> is it though?
16:43 <+doy> how does it compare to other races?
16:43 < Eronarn> !lg * race=MD god=Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>20
16:44 < Henzell> 139. NyaaKitty the Executioner (L21 MDCK), worshipper of Makhleb, slain by an Executioner on Zot:5 on 2009-12-28, with 275403 points after 53443 turns and 4:08:16.
16:44 < Eronarn> er
16:44 < Eronarn> !lg * race=MD god=Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>10 s=xl
16:44 < Henzell> 670 games for * (race=MD god=Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>10): 131x 11, 92x 12, 66x 14, 59x 13, 48x 27, 47x 16, 43x 15, 36x 17, 20x 19, 19x 18, 18x 21, 18x 20, 16x 26, 15x 24, 15x 22, 14x 25, 13x 23
16:44 < Eronarn> Less than twice as many 27s
16:44 < Eronarn> Over twice as many 11s
16:45 < Eronarn> !lg * race=MD god=~Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>10 s=xl
16:46 < Henzell> No games for * (race=MD god=~Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>10).
16:46 < Eronarn> Hm
16:46 <+greensnark> Don't use =~ and |
16:46 <+greensnark> =~ is a simple substring match
16:47 < Eronarn> Oh
16:47 <+greensnark> Use ~~ or just x=a|b|c
16:47 < Eronarn> !lg * race=DD god=~~Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>10 s=xl
16:47 < Henzell> No games for * (race=DD god=~~Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>10).
16:47 < Eronarn> I think I misunderstood what you meant there, then :P
16:47 <+greensnark> !lg * race=DD god~~Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>10 s=xl
16:47 < Henzell> 282 games for * (race=DD god~~Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>10): 54x 11, 36x 12, 27x 13, 26x 27, 23x 14, 22x 15, 15x 16, 12x 19, 12x 24, 9x 20, 9x 26, 8x 17, 7x 23, 7x 22, 6x 18, 5x 21, 4x 25
16:47 < Eronarn> Oh I see
16:48 <+greensnark> Or you can just say god=Trog|Bar, and it will get converted to god~~ by the fixup code
16:48 < Eronarn> Oh, what I'm trying to do is NOT ely/makh/kiku/trog
16:48 <+greensnark> !=
16:48 < Eronarn> !lg * race=DD god!=Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>10 s=xl
16:48 < Henzell> 175 games for * (race=DD god!=Elyvion|Makhleb|Kikubaquudgha|Trog xl>10): 39x 11, 24x 14, 22x 12, 19x 13, 19x 27, 15x 15, 10x 16, 8x 18, 3x 25, 3x 26, 3x 20, 3x 24, 2x 22, 2x 17, 1x 19, 1x 23, 1x 21
16:48 <+greensnark> Elyvilon misspelled, btw :P
16:49 <+greensnark> Kiku too :P
16:49 < Eronarn> ~_~
16:49 < Eronarn> "at least I spelled Trog right"
16:49 <+greensnark> !lg * DD god!=Ely|Mak|Kik|Trog xl>10 s=xl
16:49 < Henzell> 90 games for * (DD god!=Ely|Mak|Kik|Trog xl>10): 18x 11, 12x 12, 12x 13, 12x 27, 8x 14, 7x 15, 6x 16, 3x 24, 2x 18, 2x 26, 2x 20, 2x 25, 1x 19, 1x 22, 1x 17, 1x 21
16:49 < Eronarn> I'm not at my best today, I woke up after like 5 hours of sleep. I normally get 12
16:49 < Eronarn> !lg * DD god=Ely|Mak|Kik|Trog xl>10 s=xl
16:49 < Henzell> 367 games for * (DD god=Ely|Mak|Kik|Trog xl>10): 75x 11, 46x 12, 39x 14, 34x 13, 33x 27, 30x 15, 19x 16, 12x 24, 12x 18, 12x 19, 10x 20, 10x 26, 9x 17, 8x 23, 8x 22, 5x 21, 5x 25
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18:07 < Napkin> will blowguns lose their speed penality too when being used with a shield/buckler
18:08 <+doy> probably not, that one actually makes more sense
18:08 < Napkin> huh?
18:08 < Napkin> it does? how so?
18:09 <+doy> reloading a blowgun would necessarily require two hands
18:09 < Napkin> I mean.. kobolds use them.. so they are small things - not huge things you'd hold with two hands?
18:10 <+doy> i assume the speed penalty is reflecting reloading time
18:10 < Napkin> well, that would be same with slings though
18:11 <+doy> putting a stone in a sling seems like it would be a lot easier
18:11 <+doy> not that i've actually used a sling or a blowgun, but
18:11 <+doy> (:
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18:19 < CIA-84> greensnark * rb1ee54b1fe15 /crawl-ref/source/ (skills2.cc util/gen-apt.pl): Move to a more compile-safe way of defining species skill aptitudes.
18:21 < Twinge-> A buckler should barely inhibit either blowgun or sling at all, maybe none for medium+ races and slightly for smaller.    It might be interesting to make shields make blowguns less accurate rather than slower to reload, or slight bit of both;  you don't need to hold one with both hands, but it is more accurate if you do.
18:22 <+doy> a shield would definitely make blowguns slower to reload though
18:22 <+doy> i could see making it less accurate too, but not sure that that's worth it
18:24 <+greensnark> Napkin: When you can, update cdo
18:24 <+greensnark> Most skill aptitudes were off-by-one
18:25 <+doy> heh
18:27 < Napkin> oh? after you fixed the skills shown wrongly?
18:28 <+greensnark> Yes
18:28 <+greensnark> The darts skill wasn't removed from apt list
18:28 <+greensnark> Which meant that the next skill got the darts skill aptitude, and so on
18:28 <+greensnark> I think every skill was off starting from bows :P
18:29 < Napkin> 30dc9be38 Fix skill display bug with Darts skill removed.
18:29 < Twinge-> It was funny to see Enchanters starting with armor though :)
18:29 < Napkin> that's running at the moment
18:29 <+greensnark> No big deal, just characters running around with amusing aptitudes
18:30 < Twinge-> Napkin: I think he's saying that fixed the names but not the aptitudes
18:30 < Napkin> c + Armour         Skill  3 120
18:30 < Napkin> d - Shields        Skill  1 130
18:30 < Napkin> hehe
18:30 < Napkin> not so correct for a MD ;)
18:31 < Napkin> Press RETURN to compile b1ee54b
18:31 < ais523> #
18:31 <+greensnark> RETURN
18:31 < ais523> um, that was meant to be pressing return, but I hit # just before
18:31 < ais523> by mistake
18:32 <+greensnark> Did that help? :)
18:32 < Napkin> --
18:32 < Napkin> item_use.cc:1677: warning: ‘int _item_to_skill_level(const item_def*)’ defined but not used
18:32 < Napkin> --
18:32 <+greensnark> I wonder what that was for :P
18:33 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2011-gb1ee54b (15.1)
18:33 < Napkin> It worked \o/
18:33 < Napkin> ;))
18:33 <+greensnark> :)
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18:35 <+doy> now all we need is a post-commit hook that does that
18:35 <+doy> (:
18:35 < Napkin> hehe, I wish I could give gretell commands ;)
18:35 <+greensnark> You wouldn't get sleep at night thinking about the security implications :D
18:35 <+doy> (:
18:36 < Napkin> only through local socket, of course! :D
18:36 < CIA-84> greensnark * r8084c80b478e /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Remove unused static fn (Napkin).
18:36 < Napkin> thanks!
18:39 <+greensnark> You're welcome :)
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18:43 < Twinge-> But yeah, Slings should get slowed down by at least heavier shields too; you kinda need 2 hands to be able to load a stone into the sling for another shot.  Maybe not as much slowed as they used to though?
18:43 < Twinge-> (Maybe I should only try to talk in the evenings, it disconnects less :P)
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18:49 < Napkin> come on, guys... admit! you added some "don't talk to Napkin anymore" if-clause to Ijyb!
18:50 < Twinge-> Hail, Eronarn.
18:51 < Napkin> not slowing slings makes them finally useful again :)
18:52 < Twinge-> Well, it makes enough sense for a Buckler, for for bigger shields... it really doesn't.  Besides if they are put in the same category as throwing they're kind of more useful automatically since they aren't requiring you to dedicate to them as much.
18:52 < Napkin> well, luckily it's no reality show ;)
18:54 <+greensnark> Napkin: Ijyb is mine, all mine.
18:54 <+greensnark> Stay away from my precious darling Ijyb
18:54 < Napkin> :-PPP
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19:06 < Eronarn> Twinge-: A sling is just a leather strap, it wraps around your hand
19:06 < Eronarn> You can fire it one-handed
19:07 < Napkin> Oh, Hell knights in swamp?
19:07 < Eronarn> Napkin: margery
19:07 < Napkin> almost killed the old guy ;)
19:07 < Eronarn> hell knights only show up in the absence of margery in crypt 5, abyss, pan... maybe hells
19:07 < Eronarn> not sure on hells though, funnily enough
19:08 < Eronarn> @??hell knight
19:08 < Gretell> hell knight (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 30-90 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 13 | Flags: evil, spellcaster | Res: magic(40), hellfire | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 767 | Sp: pain, b.fire, blink / pain, throw flame, haste.
19:08 < Eronarn> Oh, that reminds me
19:08 < Eronarn> Would anyone be against turning Wights into something more like Hell Knights / Skeletal Warriors
19:09 < Napkin> they are difficult to hit and drain you
19:09 < Napkin> and come early
19:09 < Eronarn> They aren't particularly difficult, actually
19:10 < Eronarn> @??wight
19:10 < Gretell> wight (W) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 8(drain) | Flags: undead, evil | Res: magic(16), cold++, poison | XP: 37.
19:10 < Eronarn> @??hobgoblin
19:10 < Gretell> hobgoblin (g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-7 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 5 | Res: magic(1) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2.
19:10 < Napkin> then why are they much more difficult to hit than a hobgoblin?
19:11 < Eronarn> Are you thinking of:
19:11 < Eronarn> @??wraith
19:11 < Gretell> wraith (W) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 13(drain) | Flags: undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(56), cold, poison | XP: 168.
19:11 < Napkin> no, i think it was a wight
19:11 < Napkin> 2 or three times already
19:12 < Napkin> it had a undead knight-like tile with a blue/dark cloak
19:12 < Eronarn> Well, compare a wight to:
19:12 < Eronarn> @??scorpion
19:12 < Gretell> scorpion (s) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 10(medium poison) | Res: magic(12) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 28.
19:12 < Napkin> @?? snake
19:12 < Gretell> snake (S) | Speed: 13 | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 1/15 | Damage: 5(poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(8) | XP: 13.
19:13 < Eronarn> Then since a wight has a robe, it's at least +1 AC, up to +5
19:13 < Eronarn> Their weapon could've also been Protection brand, I guess
19:13 < Napkin> oh, yes, that could have been the problem
19:14 < Eronarn> Anyways,  < Napkin> it had a undead knight-like tile with a blue/dark cloak
19:14 < Eronarn> This is why I want to see them buffed
19:14 < Eronarn> Their flavor is too cool for them to be just a wimpy early undead monster
19:14 < Napkin> aha
19:14 < Napkin> go ahead
19:14 < Eronarn> They're basically like liches, but for warriors instead of casters
19:14 < Napkin> i found them difficult enough already
19:14 < Napkin> watching someone else play
19:15 < Napkin> but i am a newbie in this game anyways
19:15 < Napkin> so...
19:15  * Napkin shuts up *
19:17 < Eronarn> Napkin: Yeah, I mean, making them buffer but also not show up as early
19:17 < Eronarn> Possibly just make a "wight" and a "wight champion" as a new monster, though
19:17 < Eronarn> Ooh. I could do them ancient Greek themed.
19:19 < Twinge-> Eronarn: Er, a Sling is normally a small leather strap attacheched to a foot or two or cord.  You spin it around and release properly to fire it at a good speed.  To then reload another rock quickly, you'd need your other hand.
19:19 < Twinge-> You can certainly FIRE it one-handed, but not reload it quickly one-handed.
19:19 < Eronarn> wight hoplite, wight myrmidon, wight peltast... maybe supplement it with roman gladiator types
19:19 < Eronarn> Twinge-: Yes, but remember that Crawl doesn't handle separate reloads/fires
19:20 < Napkin> sling is a weapon that melee characters use - no?
19:20 < Eronarn> Napkin: no - a sling is about the simplest ranged weapon one can make, piece of leather whirled around until you release it to fire a round stones
19:21 < Eronarn> different from a slingshot
19:21 < Napkin> so, who is using slings then?
19:21 < Eronarn> traditional halfling weapon
19:21 < Eronarn> it's been quite weak in Crawl for a while
19:21 < Eronarn> but has recently been buffed to be able to fire with a shield without the speed penalty shields normally give to ranged attacks
19:21 < Napkin> yes, i know
19:22 < Napkin> and i think that's a good change
19:22 < Eronarn> sling bullets were also made more common
19:22 < Napkin> finally i can use a sling again
19:22 < Twinge-> See, I think there should be a plenalty, just less of one - same with blowguns.  Shields don't inhibit nearly as much as they do for a crossbow or longbow, but they do still inhibit.
19:23 < Napkin> who will use slings then? melee chars with should would go back to darts
19:23 < Napkin> oh, wait, 56 darts, "reloading" would mean i'll have to grab into my backpack?
19:23 < Napkin> that that justify a penalty too?
19:23 < Napkin> *does
19:24 < ais523> heh, I was playing HaHu recently, it almost works
19:24 < ais523> but uniques mess you up
19:24 < Twinge-> You can do that one-handed.
19:24 < Napkin> lol
19:25 < Eronarn> Twinge-: i think it's fine to make shield delay increase simply a factor of how much it interferes with firing
19:25 < Eronarn> and not get into loading at all
19:26 < Eronarn> trying to add realism here is silly - think about bows vs. crossbows
19:26 < Eronarn> i'm not even particularly good at archery and i could fire several arrows in the time it would take someone to load a crossbow... and they'd have to 'unwield' it to do so
19:27 < ais523> I'm not particularly good at archery, to the extent that I could load and fire a crossbow before I got an arrow to go more than a metre or so
19:27 < Eronarn> this could differentiate ranged weapons even more...  but then characters would run around with 5 loaded crossbows and swap them, which is gimmicky and dumb
19:27 < Twinge-> Yeah it's going to be somewhat awkward no matter what I guess.  I mean, having a shield is going to interfere with any of this no matter what.  And somehow you're carrying a stack of 10 javelins while weilding a sword and a shield, etc. etc.
19:28 < Eronarn> heh, yeah
19:28 < Eronarn> I personally favor inventory not being carrying capacity, but bulk
19:28 <+doy> Eronarn: that is in fact what happens in doomrl, which has reloading
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19:28 <+doy> people walk around with like 6 loaded shotguns, since weapon swapping is faster than reloading
19:28 <+doy> (:
19:28 < mr0t> eronarn: you mean to say volume of an item should be used instead of its weight?
19:29 < Eronarn> doy: that's kind of accurate to fps though :)
19:29 < Eronarn> mr0t: yes
19:29 < mr0t> hrm
19:29 < Eronarn> not strictly volume, though
19:29 < Eronarn> for example - javelins are not that much volume, but huge bulk
19:29 < Eronarn> imagine carrying ten billiard poles on your person
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19:29 < mr0t> yeah, it should factor in, in some way
19:29 < Twinge-> Annoying to implement for too little gain, I think.  It's going to be unrealistic either way
19:29 < mr0t> goddamit, i hate when english forces you to repeat a word
19:30 < Eronarn> Twinge-: it wouldn't actually be bad to implement - replace 'aum' with 'bulk', assign more sane bulk values
19:30 < mr0t> yeah, there are way more pressing things to balance
19:30 < Eronarn> aum is already effectively a measure of bulk, because for example armor values are much lower than they should be
19:30 < mr0t> you would have to keep aum and add bulk as another variable
19:30 < ais523> carrying ten javelins isn't much harder than carrying one javelin, though
19:30 < Twinge-> Eronarn: Sure, but it'd still be an overhaul of the existing system, and change something that doesn't really need changing.
19:30 < ais523> because they stack nicely
19:31 < Eronarn> ais523: yeah, if any bulk system were added you could make each stack of an item you have take up bulk, inherently
19:31 < Eronarn> Twinge-: well... carrying capacity certainly needs changing
19:31 < ais523> well, the 52-inventory-slots limit sort-of works like that
19:32 < Eronarn> it's not-ok with the current values on trunk imo
19:32 < mr0t> I think trying to change the game just to make it more realistic is a bit misguided; i mean, we're talking about a game where you can do a million things that violate various laws of thermodynamics and so on
19:32 < Twinge-> Oh yeah?  It seemed better in some ways at least - Strength is more relevant
19:32 < Eronarn> Twinge-: it's better but there are still lots of really weird weight values
19:32 < Eronarn> like, why is a wand as heavy as a javelin
19:32 < mr0t> hell, unless a game is a simulator, realism should never be a concern
19:32 <+doy> mr0t: internal consistency is useful though
19:33 < Twinge-> For gameplay balance rather than realism.
19:33 <+doy> because it makes the game easier to learn
19:33 < Twinge-> The game is harder - and has some tougher decisions - when you can't just carry a stack of 20 wands easily
19:33 < Napkin> heh, poisoned sling bullets \o/
19:33 < Twinge-> Napkin: I thought those were removed by now? :P
19:33 < Eronarn> Twinge-: but you *can* carry 20 wands easily, the limiting factor on wands is generally your inventory slots nowadays
19:33 < mr0t> I said trying to make the changes *just* to make it more realistic, so yeah, I think it's fine if there's a balance issue 
19:34 < Twinge-> Eronarn: Not if you're a Spriggan you can't ;)
19:34 < mr0t> since wands don't actually exist, how can one assign a value to one?
19:34 < Eronarn> Twinge-: yes, which is good - but all i am saying here is that carrying capacity was changed, but item weights werent'
19:34 < Twinge-> Nod, that's fair.
19:34 < mr0t> and shouldn't wooden wands weigh less than metal wands
19:34 < Eronarn> even if item weights were solely dictated by balance concerns - and they are absolutely not - they should be revisited
19:34 < mr0t> etc etc
19:35 <+doy> i am somewhat afraid that the carrying capacity change was a bit too extreme
19:35 <+doy> but haven't really played with it enough to know for sure
19:35 < mr0t> so what else are they 'dictated' by, other than realism?
19:35 < Twinge-> Sure.  I haven't tried too many different options in trunk at this point anyway so I don't know how it all matches up.  I just know Str was much more relevant to my Spriggan now than it used to be, Rotting mutation was more annoying, and carrying capacity was definitely an issue =)
19:35 < Eronarn> mr0t: "how much should this sword weigh" *thinks for 5 seconds* *puts down number*
19:36 < Eronarn> this is why a halberd weighs a third as much as a full suit of plate mail
19:36 < Twinge-> Heavy weapons help prevent Tukima's from being too Uber though in a way, I guess
19:36 < mr0t> i was just being cheeky about that, of course you can make a realistic estimate of what the weight would be in 5 seconds
19:36 < mr0t> you didn't answer my question, though
19:37 < Eronarn> mr0t: meant were in that case when i said it - that item weights are just another legacy feature inherited from a game with >10 speed hydras
19:38 < mr0t> really it doesn't matter; I just think keeping a game balanced is both the highest priority and the most difficult aspect of development, so to dismiss it in favor of realism..
19:38 < Eronarn> oh, no, i'm not saying that
19:38 < Eronarn> just, realism can be a useful guide for balance
19:38 < mr0t> ah, okay
19:38 < mr0t> yes, that is true
19:38 < Eronarn> it is realistic that you can't carry around a ton of giant rocks even if you're an ogre
19:38 < Eronarn> and also balanced
19:39 < mr0t> i remember when I first tried to 'develop' a game, it wasn't programming or anything, just Blades of Exile, when it came out I was so psyched, I was only a kid and had dreamed of developing an rpg
19:39 < mr0t> it was a breeze until I started playing
19:40 < mr0t> monsters were way too weak.. then way too strong.. then too frequent.. then not frequent.. etc
19:40 < Eronarn> balancing games is fun :)
19:40 < mr0t> i never even completed one scenario because I couldn't attain the balance of the other exile games, not even close
19:40 < Eronarn> hate math, love stats & numbers
19:40 < Eronarn> and formulas
19:40 < Twinge-> Balance is a tough nut to crack indeed.  I consider it one of my strengths - I'm not as good at ocming up with ideas from scratch, but I am usually good at fixing existing ideas.
19:41 < Eronarn> you would think that if i like numbers and formulas i would like math, or that if i don't like math i wouldn't like numbers and formulas - but no
19:41 < mr0t> by math you mean what, arithmetic, geometry and calculus?
19:41 < mr0t> and derivatives (no pun intended)
19:41 < Twinge-> Eronarn: Haha, that applies to me to some extent.  I started out a math genius in early years, and then barely passed Calculus in later years ;O  I do wish I was better at stats-based math though, I shoudl actively learn more about it sometime
19:42 < Eronarn> mr0t: Can't do calculus. Failed it.
19:42 < Eronarn> Almost failed precalc in highschool
19:42 < Eronarn> Now, I have a job that requires programming, specifically of spherical trig/coordinate systems. Go figure.
19:42 < Twinge-> Trigonometric identies and Calculus were my bane
19:43 < Eronarn> Twinge-: I got a basic stats education with my psych degree. I'd like to learn more, though
19:43 < mr0t> i managed to avoid getting an F on my transcript by being cautious and dropping classes I wasn't sure I'd pass
19:44 < mr0t> but ironically, I needed an F on my transcript instead of a W because of reasons that are complex and not germane to the discussion anyway
19:44 < mr0t> so I get an F by design
19:44 < mr0t> although I probably would have gotten a D if I'd tried, I needed a C since its in my major
19:45 < mr0t> Genetics Lab. Fucking hate it, it's useless. when I took genetics at SRSU, it was also a lame class, but there was no lab
19:45 < Eronarn> mr0t: I'm taking a winter course right now, but aside from that this was my last semester. I was seriously in danger of having to retake one or two classes in the spring, which would've been *awful*
19:46 < mr0t> I can't deal with slaughtering living things, so I just stopped going to class when we had to start 'observing' the flies we had finally gotten after caring for 2 generations of them
19:46 < mr0t> heh
19:47 < Eronarn> A girl I know does neuro. She has to do that, but with rats
19:47 < mr0t> tell me about it.. I have only 5 credit hours left to graduate
19:47 < mr0t> ugh, I hate thinking about that
19:47 < Eronarn> mr0t: I had 5 left. You can take 4 in winter semester and there are no waivers permitted.
19:47  * mr0t has kept pet rats since being a kid, brother was allergic to cats and dogs
19:47 < mr0t> yeah but the thing is
19:47 < Eronarn> then my mom reminded me that I had taken a community college course in high school to graduate earlier, but that there was no reason I couldn't count it towards my college degree, too
19:48 < Eronarn> Thanks, mom! <3
19:49 < mr0t> I live with my parents, they're selling the house, moving to colorado where they've already bought a house so we're probably going to move before this house is even completely sold, today my dad is signing over the business to the guy he's selling it to, and with no more obligations here, they wanna get the hell out, and I don't blame them, houston is an ugly city
19:49 < mr0t> heh
19:49 < mr0t> community college is great
19:49 < Twinge-> Houston IS an ugly city.  Can't really do anything but better by going to Colorado, hehe
19:50 < Twinge-> Besides, Colorado is a great state for board gaming :)
19:50 < mr0t> i fucking hate the denver area 
19:50 -!- Twinge- is now known as Twinge
19:50 < mr0t> the weather, the altitude
19:50 < Twinge> Yeah, I dislike bigger cities in general.  I'm not a fan of Denver, but think I would like Houston even less.
19:51 < mr0t> I was going to live in Alpine and finish my degree there. It's 2000 feet lower and about 8 degrees south of denver, so much better climate. 
19:52 < mr0t> twinge: probably, most people hate the humidity and whatnot
19:52 < mr0t> I don't like not having my sweat evaporate, but it feels, I dunno, like the natural habitat of the human being, warm and humid tropical areas
19:53 < mr0t> denver? man, it's not even so much the cold or the altitude as it is there's not an ocean nearby for like 1000 miles
19:53 < Twinge> Hah
19:53 < Eronarn> aw, I got an incomplete in a class.
19:54 < mr0t> Alpine is only 200 miles or so from the pacific (direct, would be more by road)
19:54 < Eronarn> So not totally ready to graduate I guess.
19:54 < mr0t> hrm
19:54 < mr0t> brb
19:57 < Twinge> So then.  Missile Launchers.  :)  Slings should have no speed penalty, Blowguns should have a very slight penalty (probably 0 with bucklers at least for medium+ races) and possibly a slight accuracy penalty (two hands = better aim).  Crossbows and bows should keep their higher penalties.
19:58 < Eronarn> Twinge: Right now I think only 1.5handed and 1handed ranged weapons are used
19:59 < Eronarn> We could make crossbows and bows "two handed" ranged weapons, and blowguns "1.5 handed"
19:59 < Eronarn> But, we could also drop the handedness that is used for melee weapons entirely, because it's not necessarily a good parallel when thinking about ranged weapons
20:00 < ogaz> longbows at least being 2-handed makes sense, I think
20:00 < Eronarn> Which can come in: load+fire one handed (throwing), load two handed + fire one hand (slings), load one handed but fire two handed (bow)
20:00 < Eronarn> (Funnily enough, crossbows are technically load two handed, fire one handed)
20:00 < Eronarn> We could also make distinctions between *accuracy* penalties and *speed* penalties
20:01 < Eronarn> For example, slings could suffer speed penalties from shields but never accuracy, and blowguns could suffer accuracy and speed
20:02 < Eronarn> But this really depends how complex we want to go... I'm not sure there's any point to making slings reload slower when used with a shield. What does it add?
20:03 < mr0t> I'm beginning to think Henzell is a sentient being. whenever I query him with an !rng between crawl and another game or three, he always picks crawl! I think only once did he not, and there were like 10 choices in that query
20:04 < cbus> found a bug
20:04 < cbus> Mara can create GhFi ghosts
20:04 < Twinge> Eronarn: Yeah, I was saying we don't need to go too complex, though I suppose we could.  Changing it from the melee terminology might be good though.
20:05 < Eronarn> cbus: Cute :) File it
20:06 < Eronarn> Twinge: It may be benficial to think of this from a loadout perspective. What do we "want" bow-users to be using? Sling-users?
20:06 < cbus> done
20:06 < Twinge> Another option, on the semi-complex side, would be to factor in skill more; with enough skill there are no penalties to using slings with shields, but at low skills there are some especially with heavier shields.
20:07 < Ashenzari> Mara ghost creation (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=332) by cbus
20:08 < Twinge> I'm loosely thinking in terms of 'Bows and Crossbows are potentially nicer in general and pack more punch, but slings oculd have the advantage of firing faster and being useful against jellies as well as being more viable to combine with melee'
20:09 < Twinge> Darts are the middle ground, combining decently with either other missile weapons or melee weapons, and doing no direct damage but giving lots of cool utlity options.
20:10 < Twinge> Needles, rather.
20:11 < Eronarn> "being useful against jellies" is not really an advantage
20:12 < Eronarn> since throwing gets the same thing with stones
20:12 < Eronarn> and it's such a niche factor
20:13 < Twinge> Not a big factor at all, no.  But still somewhat noteworthy; other missile weapons are pretty awful against jellies since they just eat what you shot and heal from it
20:14 < Eronarn> as i see it - bows/crossbows are simply differently-flavored mirrors of each other; throwing is perhaps too broad, esp. with blowguns; slings should be good for shield-users whether armored or not but currently this is not enough the case
20:15 < Twinge> I still find it a bit silly for there to be Throwing+Blowing and then slings as seperate apts; there should probably jsut be 3 apts or only 1 there.
20:17 < Eronarn> i think it would be ok to buff slings somewhat in effect, but not directly damage, and merge them into throwing
20:18 < Eronarn> and make all throwables heavily dex/str depending
20:18 < Twinge> Oh also - I think Sling Bullets are eaten by jellies; shouldn't they be unaffected, as stones are?
20:18 < Eronarn> no
20:18 < Eronarn> they're made of lead
20:18 < Eronarn> jellies eat metal
20:18 < Twinge> Fair enough
20:20 < Eronarn> the real question here is how to differentiate slings from throwables; there are plenty of ways to do this for blowguns
20:20 < Twinge> Yeah, that's what I was thinking for Slings, and the Throwing skill, too.  Javelins would be a lot better for the Strong, Slings a lot better for the Dextrous, Darts somewhere more in-between, etc.  Then there'd be a few ego sling bullet options, e.g. explosion/shrapnel types or whatever else.  And then I think Slings would be inherently better to some extent just because you wouldn't be dedicated to them alone
20:20 < Eronarn> but slings not so much
20:20 < Eronarn> within the current paradigm
20:20 < CIA-84> j-p-e-g * r64ae3b98cc6e /crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Fix 2903951: duplicate letters in the Ctrl-X menu.
20:21 < CIA-84> j-p-e-g * re88370a40d2c /crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Add a comment.
20:21 < Eronarn> Twinge: i think that what i prefer is st-based slings have a chance to clobber opponents via strength, dx-based via skill (particularly when stabbing)
20:21 < Twinge> Hmmm.  There's a lot of ways it could go.
20:22 < Eronarn> basically, i think that throwing should be equally usable by the strong or the dextrous but it should have different flavors
20:23 < Twinge> Nod.  I was thinking more along the lines of 'javelins, thrown spears, thrown hand axes are better for the strong; darts, thrown stones, thrown daggers are best with balanced; slings, blowguns are best for the dextrous' But there's certainly a variety of ways to go about it 
20:26 < Eronarn> well, they can certainly be better
20:26 < Eronarn> but they should have some niche for both
20:27 < Eronarn> -- also, slings benefit GREATLY from high strength
20:27 < Eronarn> if anything, it should be darts in dex
20:27 <+doy> yes
20:27 < Eronarn> though this depends on which intepretation of darts you take (e.g., oriental vs. occidental archery)
20:35 < Twinge> Could also theoretically make slings shoot farther than Bows, though having any of the missile weapons not shoot full LOS seems pretty awful
20:37 <+doy> i don't think that's necessarily awful
20:37 <+doy> for instance - making strength affect slings range might be reasonable
20:37 <+doy> so that at reasonably high strength it does get to full range, or something
20:38 < Eronarn> doy: the problem with that is that then rocks should be less range than slings
20:38 <+doy> Eronarn: true
20:38 <+doy> shrug
20:38 < Eronarn> there simply isn't much range to work with
20:38 <+doy> yeah
20:39 < Eronarn> i am in favor of a clobber effect because it's interesting and not often used
20:39 <+doy> could have all thrown weapons have range based on strength
20:39 <+doy> and have slings get a bonus to range
20:39 <+doy> or something
20:39 <+doy> not sure if that's worth it though
20:39 <+doy> would probably end up being a pretty significant nerf in any reasonable implementation
20:39 < Eronarn> yes, though it's also ok to nerf throwing some, probably
20:40 < Twinge> Unless you're able to shoot beyond LOS, II don't think there's enough room to work with to be a comfortable change
20:40 < Eronarn> shooting beyond LOS is a no
20:40 < Twinge> That's what I figured.
20:41 < ais523> even accidentally?
20:41 < ais523> as in, missing and the projectile flying to max range?
20:41 <+doy> yeah, too abusable
20:41 < Eronarn> ais523: fire at nothing, miss it
20:41 < ais523> that sort-of makes sense, though
20:41 < ais523> why is firing at things out of LOS abusable?
20:41 < Eronarn> because they have really poor AI for dealing with it
20:41 <+doy> because they won't fire at you
20:41 < Eronarn> also, stationary opponents
20:41 < ais523> I didn't realise monsters stayed stationary when out of LOS
20:42 < Eronarn> no - i mean, against stuff like oklobs
20:42 < ais523> that's just common sense
20:42 < ais523> I mean, if I was walking down the street and came across an oklob, I'd run like hell
20:42 < ais523> but if I was an adventurer-type
20:42 < Eronarn> what's common sense about being able to have any kind of chance of hitting something you *can't see*
20:42 < ais523> I'd go out of range and start shooting in its general direction
20:42 < ais523> Eronarn: depends on how much of the tile it takes up
20:43 < Eronarn> ais523: tiles are big enough to fit dragons and giants in them
20:43 < ais523> an ogre, or something, it seems pretty plausible you could hit without being able to see
20:43 <+doy> regardless of realism
20:43 <+doy> this would completely trivialize oklobs, curse skulls, etc
20:43 <+doy> so there's no real benefit to allowing it
20:43 < Eronarn> yes, it's bad game design moreso than anything else
20:43 <+doy> also, would be an interface nightmare
20:44 < ais523> hmm, ##crawl-dev worries me
20:44 < ais523> the general trend seems to be towards removing tactics from the game
20:44 < ais523> and just relying entirely on stats
20:44 <+doy> ais523: explain how this tactic is at all interesting though
20:44 <+doy> once you know about it, you're completely safe from an entire otherwise interesting group of monsters
20:44 < ais523> well, you'd need a pretty wide open area for there to be a straight line to an oklob at past-LOS range
20:44 < Eronarn> dig
20:45 < ais523> and having to stay in one place and use up lots of ammo would leave you vulnerable to the other monsters in the area
20:45 <+doy> not in any meaningful sense
20:45 < Eronarn> also, 'removing tactics from the game'? you do realize that there used to be effective past-LOS attacks
20:45 < ais523> Eronarn: if you dig, that means taking lots of oklob hits while you try to set up the area
20:45 < Eronarn> and that they were so broken that they got removed
20:45 < Eronarn> right
20:46 < ais523> but yes, I can see how this particular tactic would be broken
20:46 < ais523> it's more, Crawl seems to be in an iterative cycle of removing the most broken tactic from the game, soon there won't be any left
20:46 < ais523> I mean, stair-swapping is pretty powerful, for instance
20:46 < ais523> it lets you deal with certain melee monsters trivially
20:46 <+doy> we're removing stair swapping?
20:46 < ais523> go downstairs, shoot a bit, go to the other stairs, shoot a bit more
20:46 < ais523> you aren't removing stair swapping
20:47 < ais523> but, it also trivialises a whole category of monsters
20:47 < ais523> if the player has the patience to do it
20:47 < ais523> and the stairs are in the right place
20:47 < Eronarn> and other monsters don't come along
20:47 < ais523> presumably, the level above is an already-cleared one
20:47 < Eronarn> and the player has enough ammo, because he can't pick it up and the thing heals between stair visits
20:47 < syllogism-> 4.1 nerfed stair swapping
20:47 < ais523> you wouldn't expect monsters to come along there
20:47 < syllogism-> but it wasn't imported to SS
20:47 < Ashenzari> Vampires get too many messages (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=333) by st
20:47 < Eronarn> the level below isn't
20:47 <+doy> syllogism-: how so?
20:48 < syllogism-> doy: it took 2 turns to take the stairs
20:48 < syllogism-> so it was riskier at least
20:48 < Eronarn> anyways, stair swapping is way less broken that past-LOS attacks
20:48 < Eronarn> and this is a silly discussion to be having because it is not a trend of 'removing' broken things
20:48 < Eronarn> but fixing them
20:48 < Eronarn> which sometimes requires removing them, when the thing is inherently broken
20:48 <+doy> yeah, we're at least attempting to add additional options for tactics
20:49 < ais523> the additional options all seems to be new spells, new items, etc
20:49 < Eronarn> ais523: square spell LOS
20:49 < Eronarn> ais523: varying spell ranges (whch makes some monsters have shorter ranged spells)
20:50 < Eronarn> that's two that have nothing to do with new spells/items
20:50 < Eronarn> just off the top of my head
20:50 < ais523> my issue is, it seems plausible, right now, to compile a "big manual of Crawl tactics" which tells you the optimal thing to do in any situation
20:50 < ais523> and just use it, and either die due to RNG, or win
20:50 < syllogism-> there's always the optimal thing
20:50 <+doy> really
20:50 < ais523> strategy would still be needed
20:50 < syllogism-> no matter what game
20:50 < ais523> syllogism-: yes, but for Crawl I think it would only be a few pages long, eventually
20:50 < ais523> I mean, that's pretty much how I play Crawl now
20:50 <+doy> i'm not entirely convinced of that
20:50 < syllogism-> that's how you play every roguelike
20:50 < ais523> add a few more entries to the book, get further
20:51 < ais523> eventually you win
20:51 < Twinge> ais: Seems like that manual would be shorter if more broken tactics were present; "If you can do A, do A because it is always the best thing.  Otherwise do B."
20:51 <+doy> yes, that too
20:51 < ais523> on the other hand, there are loads more tactics available in NetHack, just you don't have to use them
20:51 < Eronarn> ugh
20:51 < syllogism-> yes it's a broken game
20:51 < Eronarn> you used the n word
20:51 < ais523> it's been, what, 7 years since the last version of NetHack was released? and people are only just now getting sub-3000 turn wins?
20:51 < cbus> eronarn, naggers?
20:51 <+doy> ais523: but in nethack, you can pick just one of them and never even think about the others
20:51 < ais523> doy: yes, exactly
20:51 < ais523> that's why nethack is a broken game
20:51 <+doy> your manual is like half a page
20:52 < ais523> crawl doesn't have that issue
20:52 < ais523> doy: your manual is a lot bigger, but 99% of the entries you never ues
20:52 < ais523> *use
20:52 < ais523> more like 99.9%
20:52 < Eronarn> 14:55 < ais523> it's been, what, 7 years since the last version of NetHack was released? and people are only just now getting sub-3000 turn wins?
20:52 < Twinge> ais: You're confusing Width of strategic options and depth of strategic options.  Simply having a lot of options does not mean the options are deep, real, or meaningful.
20:52 <+doy> ais523: what exactly is the point you're trying to make here?
20:52 < Eronarn> god
20:52 < Eronarn> what is this even supposed to MEAN
20:52 < ais523> doy: hmm... I think, that Crawl is becoming a game simple enough to solve by brute force
20:52 < Eronarn> that is not a positive statement about nethack but it's not even a negative one either
20:53 < Twinge> Having a lot of options, and having most of those options not worth doing, is *strictly* bad game design.
20:53 < Eronarn> ais523: ...as opposed to nethack?!
20:53 < ais523> Eronarn: I don't think nethack's solvable by brute force; I think it's trivially solvable by heuristic, but that's a different approach
20:53 < ais523> Twinge: agreed
20:53 < ais523> I'm not holding up nethack as a good example at all
20:53 < Eronarn> then why are you talking about it
20:53 <+doy> then what are you holding up nethack as?
20:53 <+doy> that's what i'm confused about
20:53 < ais523> I think Crawl is going too far in the other direction
20:54 < Eronarn> also, what
20:54 < Eronarn> the idea of distinguishing between brute force and heursitic in beating roguelikes is lol
20:54 < Eronarn> what roguelike do you know where anything resembling 'brute force' works
20:54 < ais523> probably Rogue itself, it does
20:55 < Eronarn> they all have tons of special cases that would kill you if you tried anything that could be described like that... unless like in nethack you can become so powerful that even special cases can't kill you readily
20:55 < Twinge> ais: So you're saying it's becoming too much like 'Go', where the rules are simple and the options are limited but the gameplay is considered the deepest of all games? ;)
20:55 <+doy> well, the fact that taeb's behavioral ai works as well as it does points to nethack, since behavioral is basically brute force
20:55 <+doy> (:
20:55 < ais523> doy: no it isn't
20:55 < ais523> it's the exact opposite of brute force
20:55 < ais523> it's a checklist, if a then b, if c then d, and so on
20:55 <+doy> ais523: then i don't know what you mean by brute force
20:55 < ais523> brute force would be comparing b, d, f, h and so on
20:55 <+doy> and i certainly don't see how it applies to crawl
20:55 < ais523> and seeing which was the most likely to help
20:56 < ais523> hmm, this is a hard point to make
20:56 < ais523> maybe I'll just have to get a bot to do Crawl, I think it's easier than getting a bot to do NetHack
20:56 <+doy> "seeing which was the most likely to help" meaning "if a then b, if c then d, etc"?
20:56 <+doy> i don't understand
20:56 < Eronarn> ais523: your definitions are totally wacky, and you are wrong about a crawl bot being easier than nethack
20:56 < Eronarn> hope this helps
20:56 < ais523> doy: because, if a, then you never consider d, f, h, etc
20:56 < Twinge> ais: It looks like you're complaining that there is better balance and choices require more difficult valuation.
20:56 <+doy> ais523: i don't see how that's a meaningful distinction though
20:57 < ais523> because there are millions of things you could do in NetHack, at any given time
20:57 <+doy> or really, what that distinction even means
20:57 < ais523> it wouldn't make sense to try them all
20:57 < Eronarn> doy: funnily enough what he means by brute force is actually a heuristic 
20:57 < Eronarn> and what he means by heuristic is closer to brute force
20:57 < ais523> in Crawl, there's what, five or so?
20:57 < syllogism-> fyi crawl isn't any simpler than it was 5 or 10 years ago
20:58 < ais523> most of the time, you can't shake off a monster without spending resources, or at all, so it's obviously correct to kill it now
20:58 < ais523> if you can
20:58 < Eronarn> crawl wasn't around 10 years ago was it? :)
20:58 < syllogism-> it was
20:58 <+doy> Eronarn: crawl is about 15 years old
20:58 < Twinge> ais: I'd prefer choosing 1 out of 3 good options of the total 5 options than choosing 1 out of 1 good options of the total 100 options.
20:58 < Eronarn> interesting, didn't know that
20:58 <+doy> Twinge: agreed
20:58 < ais523> Twinge: I'd prefer if there were 100 options, and maybe 8 of them were good, and it took me a lot of thought to choose which
20:58 <+doy> ais523: yes, but that is *hard*
20:58 < Twinge> ais: So you prefer bad game design.  I guess that's your call.
20:59 < ais523> doy: agreed
20:59 <+doy> and i don't know basically any game that does that well
20:59 < Eronarn> doy: GURPS
20:59 <+doy> getting nethack into a state where that was the case would be basically impossible, for instance
20:59 < Eronarn> if you have an hour to spend thinking about every 1 second turn, anyways
20:59 < ais523> doy: something like that comes up every now and then in #nethack, and everyone discusses for 10 minutes or so as to what to do
21:00 < ais523> however, it's nearly always only when the player has already made a stupid mistake
21:00 < Eronarn> ais523: you think that doesn't happen in crawl?
21:00 < ais523> my conclusion: nethack is only interesting after stupid mistakes
21:00 < ais523> Eronarn: it still happens sometimes, but I think that most of the time when it does, the player is screwed
21:00 < Eronarn> and even better, in crawl it happens with perfect play, barring scummy perfect play
21:00 <+doy> ais523: not really
21:00 < ais523> agreed, it /should/ happen even with perfect play, that is completely what is wrong with NetHack
21:00 < Eronarn> ais523: oh no the player might die! in a roguelike! tragedy!
21:01 <+doy> well, crawl does require a bit more forethought
21:01 <+doy> but that's intentional
21:01 < ais523> just, I think interesting opportunities for it to happen are being drained from Crawl
21:01 < syllogism-> but that's simply wrong
21:01 <+doy> if you get down to one turn to try to save yourself from death, then yes
21:01 <+doy> you're probably going to die
21:01 <+doy> the key for crawl is recognizing those situations earlier
21:01 <+doy> in nethack that's not really the case
21:01 < Twinge> ais: Yeah, I'm still hearing "I prefer games to be poorly designed and only care about width of strategy and not depth" :P
21:01 < Eronarn> ais523: it's nice that you think that but you're completely wrong, sorry
21:01 < Eronarn> ais523: compare shoals deaths in the past week vs. the past month
21:02 < ais523> Twinge: I care about both, I think Crawl's losing both
21:02 < ais523> Eronarn: have they gone up?
21:02 < syllogism-> seems like you are basing this purely on some imaginary crawl you thought existed
21:02 < Eronarn> yes
21:02 < syllogism-> because whatever you think about crawl
21:02 < Eronarn> a lot
21:02 < Twinge> Examples?
21:02 < syllogism-> it hasn't changed in the way you claim it has
21:02 < ais523> if so, is it because you made the zone harder? or because you changed it?
21:02 < Eronarn> how would one make it harder without changing it
21:02 < ais523> you wouldn't
21:03 < ais523> but I mean, does changing a zone, in itself, make people die in it more even if you make it slightly easier?
21:03 < ais523> people have expectations as to what they'll find
21:03 < Eronarn> it's objectively harder
21:03 < Eronarn> some things just got straight-up buffs
21:03 < ais523> if those are violated, their standard tactics won't work, and they'll die
21:03 <+doy> ais523: shoals hasn't been around long enough for people to have expectations about it
21:03 < TGW> wait, is that what this whole argument is about? shoals changing?
21:04 < ais523> TGW: no, it isn't
21:04 < syllogism-> tgw: LOS abuse being discouraged
21:04 < ais523> I don't mind discouragement of LOS abuse in particular, it's probably necessary
21:04 < Eronarn> TGW: ais523 thinks that crawl is becoming easier / losing too many tactical options / that it would be easier to write a crawl bot than a nethack bot
21:04 < syllogism-> so what do you mind
21:04 < ais523> my issue is that this sort of thing is repeatedly becoming necessary
21:04 < syllogism-> do you have any examples
21:04 <+doy> ais523: do you have any other specific examples of what you're talking about?
21:04 < TGW> isn't there already a nethack bot?
21:04 <+doy> you keep saying 'repeatedly', but
21:04 < ais523> I'm pretty sure I had, but I can't remember them
21:04 < Eronarn> TGW: several
21:04 < TGW> or like more than one
21:04 < TGW> that win regularly
21:04 < ais523> TGW: three active, none of them do very wel
21:04 <+doy> not that win
21:04 < ais523> *well
21:04 < TGW> oh
21:04 < ais523> NetHack's never been won by a bot
21:04 < Eronarn> they get decently far
21:04 < Eronarn> iirc
21:05 < Eronarn> but not close enough to win
21:05 <+doy> but we're pretty sure that's just a matter of time though
21:05 < ais523> I think bot-winning NetHack's about two years out
21:05 < ais523> and we've been working on it for years already
21:05 < ais523> (I'm one of the main NetHack botdevs)
21:05 < ais523> (doy is another)
21:05 < CIA-84> greensnark * red85466e0202 /crawl-ref/source/ (14 files in 3 dirs): Fix Shoal:$ generation bugs: stairs could be surrounded by deep water, hut entrances could be blocked by rock.
21:06 < ais523> anyway, I'm having enough problems trying to coherently make my point that I don't think I'll convince you of anything, so I'm going to stop trying
21:06 < Eronarn> argument feature, not user bug
21:06 < ais523> on another note: don't water fountains in the Temple lead to a no-brainer (quaffing them until dry?)
21:06 <+doy> ais523: i suppose in some sense, but... why?
21:06 < syllogism-> they are just flavor
21:07 < Eronarn> it's less food than a ration
21:07 < syllogism-> you dont get enough nutrition from them
21:07 < syllogism-> for it to matter
21:07 < ais523> you do as a spriggan
21:07 <+doy> a couple points of nutrition isn't really meaningful
21:07 < ais523> I've done it numerous games
21:07 < ais523> 099qy
21:07 < ais523> it's habit to type that straight off
21:07 <+doy> ais523: i play spriggans all the time, and have never had food issues to that level
21:07 < ais523> I've got all the way down to dlvl 10 or so entirely on fountain nutrition before
21:07 < Eronarn> ais523 is right in that optimal play would dictate drinking fountains
21:07 < Eronarn> but it's not really worth the effort to set up most of the time
21:07 < Eronarn> even on a spriggan
21:07 < ais523> they don't give enough nutrition to make it worthwhile to go back to them later and quaff them
21:08 < ais523> so, it's obvious that you do it immediately
21:08 < ais523> it just bothers me a bit, seems to go against Crawl's design principles
21:08 <+doy> shrug, not really any moreso than other races finding a meat ration on the ground
21:08 <+doy> or i guess a corpse
21:08 < TGW> does it seem wrong that the almost strictly optimal strategy is "not really worth the effort to set up most of the time?"
21:08 <+doy> would be a better analogy
21:09 < ais523> at least you can take that with you, and it's an interesting choice as to when to eat it
21:09 < ais523> especially when berserking is involved
21:09 < ais523> do I eat now to top up my food so I can go berserk? or do I save it until later
21:09 <+doy> TGW: "strictly optimal" by a very narrow margin though
21:09 < TGW> doy: it's an upside with no downside
21:09 < TGW> beyond "not really worth the effort"
21:09 < Eronarn> this discussion is sooooo stupid
21:09 < ais523> and it only takes half a second or so to type 099qy
21:09 <+doy> i agree with all that
21:10 < Eronarn> can we please talk about something that will be relevant to more than 3 people, ever
21:10 < Eronarn> like, i dunno
21:10 < Eronarn> the fact that you can pacify giant snails
21:10 < Eronarn> but not worms
21:10 < ais523> by the way, what's meant to be interesting about giant snails?
21:10 < ogaz> does this matter to anyone but sp and really weird corner cases?
21:10 < Twinge> ais: I think it's pretty telling that you can't come up with any actual examples of your claim, by the way :P  
21:10 < ais523> the general principle of Crawl is that each new monster you come across should require different tactics to beat
21:10 < ais523> or at least pose a threat
21:10 < ais523> gah, I'll have to check logs now
21:11 < Twinge> For fountains though, I thought theu actually were changed to not give nutrition already, but I guess I was mistaken
21:11 < syllogism-> there are many monsters that arent interesting at all right now
21:11 < Eronarn> ais523: slugs are just a reskin of beetles, all of them are enemies that hit pretty hard but slowly and move slowly and are hard to kill
21:11 <+doy> i mean, i wouldn't be against a patch to make fountains not give nutrition
21:11 <+doy> but i really don't care enough
21:11 < syllogism-> Not sure what that has to do with what you've been arguing about though
21:11 < ais523> spammals is another example, I suppose: something else that's obviously broken, but removes tactical objects when you remove them
21:11 < ais523> *tactical options
21:11 < Twinge> which is fine... good, even.  Unique stuff isn't very unique when there's nothing bland
21:11 < ais523> or nerf, in this case
21:11 < TGW> oh?
21:12 < TGW> like what
21:12 < Eronarn> Twinge: it makes gastronok just that much more flavorful
21:13 <+doy> ais523: the intention is for 0.7 to introduce a lot of more interesting summoning spells
21:13 <+doy> that's more an issue with summonings in general being too boring
21:13 < TGW> what did spammals nerf prevent from being a strategy?
21:13 < ais523> a conversation we had a while ago, was me making the point that summoning a single butterfly was broken by general Crawl power levels
21:14 < ais523> TGW: making range
21:14 < Twinge> You can still do that.
21:14 < ais523> well, you can still do that even with current spammals
21:14 < Twinge> Just less assuredly and abuseably
21:14 < ais523> but, how many other ways are there to do that?
21:14 < Eronarn> blink
21:14 < ais523> I tried swiftness, it doesn't work on some monsters (they're fast enough anyway)
21:14 < Eronarn> swiftness
21:14 < Eronarn> teleport self
21:14 < ais523> and blink causes glow
21:14 < Eronarn> slow
21:14 <+doy> no it doesn't
21:15 < ais523> controlled-blink does, at least
21:15 < syllogism-> negligible glow
21:15 < Eronarn> controlled blink is totally different
21:15 <+doy> sure, but that's not really relevant
21:15 < Eronarn> and totally broken
21:15 < Twinge> Wand of Hasting.  Confusing the enemy.
21:15 < Eronarn> and totally worth the glow
21:15 < ais523> Twinge: isn't Mephitic Cloud due for a nerf?
21:15 < Eronarn> ais523: keep in mind spammals will not actually get you range vs. fast opponents guaranteed, either
21:15 < ais523> it really obviously needs one
21:15 < Twinge> Yes, it's getting one.
21:16 < ais523> Eronarn: they need to be fast /and/ capable of killing the spammals in one hit to avoid letting you make range
21:16 < TGW> I don't see why meph needs a nerf
21:16 < Eronarn> or have a multi-target attack
21:16 < ais523> I do
21:16 <+doy> ais523: at which point they catch you next turn anyway?
21:16 < Eronarn> or multiple monsters
21:16 < Eronarn> or etc.
21:16 < TGW> it's basically an "escape from things that move as fast as you" button
21:16 < TGW> but only for low D
21:16 < Twinge> TGW: Because it's hella good and low level?
21:16 <+doy> spammals isn't really useful for getting range on anything faster than you
21:16 < ais523> doy: if they can't kill the spammals fast enough, you can put a continuous wall of spammals between them and you
21:16 < TGW> twinge: so is freeze
21:16 < TGW> should we nerf that?
21:16 < ais523> ok, so you don't make unlimited range, but you mostly make "enough"
21:17 < Twinge> Freeze can't auto-win against centaurs and orc priests from full LOS
21:17 < Eronarn> Twinge: that's summon spam that's an issue
21:17 < ais523> anyway, the point here is: why is it broken to be able to easily make range?
21:17 < Eronarn> which is a tangential, different one
21:17 < ais523> I know it is, and so does everyone else here
21:17 < TGW> mephing an orc is asking for trouble
21:17 < ais523> but, if you remove that possibility, making range is just one more thing you don't have to consider
21:17 <+doy> ais523: it is?
21:17 < Eronarn> ais523: it's not nearly as broken as you're describing it
21:17 <+doy> yeah, i really wouldn't call it broken
21:18 < Eronarn> spammals is far more broken because of is offensive capabilities
21:18 <+doy> yes
21:18 < ais523> doy: oh, I'm actually surprised at that
21:18 < ais523> if you can make range once, you can make it until you run out of MP
21:18 < ais523> if you can run to the stairs, you have as much MP as you need, barring hunger
21:18 < Twinge> TGW: It's extremely reliable in my experience.
21:18 <+doy> ais523: and then?
21:18 < TGW> twinge: mephing an orc is asking for trouble, because then you're running from an entire orc gang
21:18 < ais523> and then you kill them with some low-level plinking spell
21:18 < ais523> TGW: who are killing each other
21:19 < ais523> you'd be running from the entire orc gang anyway
21:19 < ais523> if they're confused, it's rather easier
21:19 < Twinge> TGW: Who said I was running?
21:19 < Twinge> :)
21:19 <+doy> ais523: how do you kill them with some low-level plinking spell when they're still chasing you
21:19 < TGW> and if you have mephs to deal with that, gee maybe orc gangs aren't such a good example of a viable foe
21:19 <+doy> you can't fire through spammals
21:19 < ais523> doy: early-game, at least, you're only going to need two or three plinks
21:19 < ais523> I haven't been claiming it's late-game broken
21:20 < ais523> but it does make early game tremendously easier
21:20 < TGW> ais523: there's like no way you can't find 2-3 spaces of range
21:20 < Eronarn> :siren: starting spell good at low levels :siren:
21:20 < Twinge> TGW: So neither are centaurs, or Ogres, or anything else that isn't poison resistant?
21:20 < ais523> TGW: corners?
21:20 < TGW> fair enough
21:20 < TGW> twinge: at low xl
21:20 < TGW> provided nothing is nearby
21:20 <+doy> ais523: so you read a ?teleport
21:20 < ais523> Eronarn: I think you've summed up my argument perfectly
21:20 < TGW> you realize ogre dies to like four darts
21:20 < TGW> right?
21:20 <+doy> and then come back from a direction that doesn't have that issue
21:20 < ais523> doy: that's rather suboptimal, isn't it? it involves using permaresources
21:21 < Eronarn> ughhh
21:21 < Eronarn> 99.99% of crawl players are not robots
21:21 < Eronarn> can we please stop discussing fiddly optimal play details
21:21 < ais523> Eronarn: well, /I/ use fiddly optimal play when playing Crawl
21:21 < ais523> and I imagine most other successful players do
21:21 < TGW> twinge: centaurs: guess what, they die to other things too
21:21 < TGW> like freeze
21:21 < ais523> I'm not a successful player, by the way
21:21 <+doy> ais523: so your argument is...?
21:22 < TGW> they also have low MR, should we nerf EH?
21:22 < TGW> pick any given spell, I'll give you a list of things it handles
21:22 < Eronarn> centaurs aren't very hard to kill, really
21:22 < Twinge> TGW: Freeze has a 1-spot range.  It's not like Meph is the only way to do things, but it's clearly a very strong option compared to others
21:22 < TGW> but it doesn't make it better at handling those things than any other spell
21:22 < Eronarn> their problem is their high, variable, erratic-speed damage
21:22 < ais523> doy: my argument against Eronarn is that if you can win without fiddly play, and it's that much better than non-fiddly play, winning with fiddly play should be easy
21:23 < Eronarn> they can do no damage at all for 3 turns and then 30 or even 40 damage at range
21:23 < TGW> twinge: so is EH
21:23 < TGW> should we nerf EH?
21:23 <+doy> TGW: yes, but that's a different argument
21:23 <+doy> (:
21:23 < TGW> hell, EH kills more
21:23 < TGW> for less MP
21:23 < Twinge> TGW: Confuse when you also know Meph Cloud? :P
21:23 < Eronarn> ais523: fiddly play is not sufficiently better, particularly in the end game, because there you have to deal with stuff like summon storms
21:23 < Eronarn> and torment
21:23 < Eronarn> and smiteblobs
21:23 < ais523> fiddly play in the early game means you have more stuff lategame for dealing with that sort of issue
21:24 < Eronarn> not enough to make it worth the extra time and annoyance
21:24 <+doy> if you don't survive to the late game, it's kinda pointless though
21:24 < TGW> except ?blink and !hw there's not much useful stuff you don't have infinity of
21:24 < TGW> !hw is debatable, even
21:24 < ais523> doy: I survive more and more each game, which is presumably intentional
21:25 < ais523> last game I played I reached the Lair for the first time, partly due to finding an insane randart
21:25 < Eronarn> ...hahaha
21:25 < ogaz> TGW: I've never had infinite potions of speed
21:25 < ogaz> or might
21:25 < ais523> and died to Josef
21:25 <+doy> !gamesby ais523
21:25 < Henzell> ais523 has played 32 games, between 20090822 and 20100101, won 0, high score 2199, total score 9128, total turns 48605, total time 5:18:54.
21:25 < ais523> doy: local
21:25 < TGW> ogaz: well, haste is pretty easy to get to cast
21:25 < ogaz> unless you're in heavy armour
21:25 < Eronarn> "guys last game i played i reached the lair for the first time. let me tell you about how crawl is being irrevocably changed for the worse"
21:25 < TGW> see also okawaru
21:26 < ais523> Eronarn: I don't think reaching the Lair for the first time is related
21:26 < TGW> I do see what you mean though
21:26 < Eronarn> ais523: It is
21:26 <+doy> ais523: arguing about the late game when having never actually played it isn't very useful though
21:26 < ais523> doy: yes, that's why I'm mostly arguing about the early game
21:26 < Eronarn> things you haven't done: -gotten a single rune -done any of the interesting branches -had to worry about the long-term food game -had to consider shopping priorities
21:26 < ais523> I /did/ once get a level 1 spriggan something like 10 levels through Pan, in wizard mode
21:26 < Eronarn> this is very relevant
21:27 < ais523> those are all strategy, which I can't fault Crawl on
21:27 < ais523> I'm complaining about tactics, which there's plenty of early-game, apparently more so than late-game based on what people have said
21:28 < Twinge> Basically ais, if you are clearly still having toruble doing well at Crawl in general, it's also clear that the game isn't becoming too simplistic and easy.
21:28 < Twinge> Maybe your formulatic approach is actually a net loss for example.
21:28 < Eronarn> !lg ais523
21:28 < Henzell> 32. ais523 the Cleaver (L8 MDFi), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by an orc priest (divine providence) on D:6 on 2010-01-01, with 1372 points after 4329 turns and 0:23:29.
21:28 < ais523> Twinge: no, I'd expect an inexperienced player like me to do worse at a game that was simplistic
21:28 < syllogism-> this is more a ##crawl discussion at this point
21:28 < ais523> but yes
21:29 < Eronarn> ais523: sorry but MDFi of oka = lol
21:29 < ais523> Eronarn: I know, I was experimenting with something
21:29 < Eronarn> try playing crawl instead of nethack, you will find MDFi is a joke of difficulty
21:29 < ais523> I was testing a character with good melee but without reliable escape options, and that happens
21:30 <+doy> ais523: the point here is that you're arguing that there's some easy recipe for winning crawl without having any proof that such a thing exists
21:30 < Eronarn> yes, that happens? it happens to most characters
21:30 < ais523> I've been playing MDFi for a while, experimenting with different gods, for research purposes
21:30 <+doy> and most people disagree with you
21:30 <+doy> and you have no results to show for it
21:30 < ais523> doy: no, I'm arguing the opposite
21:30 <+doy> also, you keep switching your argument
21:30 < ais523> I think the recipe for winning Crawl is not easy, but is coming within the range of brute force
21:30 <+doy> and it makes it difficult to keep track of
21:31 < ais523> as in, you try all possible tactics on a simulator, or something
21:31 < ais523> humans can't do that, computers can
21:31 < ais523> /I/ certainly can't do that
21:31 <+doy> "nerfing spammals is removing interesting tactical options!" "spammals even after nerfing are too powerful in the early game!"
21:31 < ais523> which is why I'm not doing very well
21:31 <+doy> i don't even know what i'm supposed to be arguing against here
21:31 < Twinge> Computers have barely been able to solve Checkers at this point.
21:32 < ais523> Twinge: wrong, computers are so good at checkers that they blow all human players out of the water, and have to be given randomised initial moves to make computer checkers tournaments interesting
21:32 < eith> are you really trying to say you think crawl is actually solveable? cause i think your insane
21:32 < ais523> eith: yes, I am
21:32 < ais523> or if not yet, will be soon
21:32 < ais523> not completely, but enough to give a real advantage
21:32 <+doy> yes, i'd like to see more proof before accepting something like this
21:33 <+doy> i'm not saying it's an impossible conclusion, but i really don't see that much evidence to make me believe it
21:33 < Twinge> ais: I think your enture argument is worthless without any actual evidence here.
21:33 < ais523> it is, and so I don't think I'll convince anyone
21:33 < ais523> without writing a Crawl bot, and that'll take years
21:34 <+doy> ais523: another point is
21:34 < eith> what about the nethacks bots though, nethack is clearly solved for human players
21:34 <+greensnark> A Crawl bot would be fun, but you're tackling a fast-moving target
21:34 <+doy> even though computers are amazing at checkers
21:34 <+doy> that doesn't make checkers not a fun game for people to play
21:34 < ais523> eith: I disagree; /winning/ nethack is solved, optimal strategy is nowhere near solved
21:34 < ais523> NetHack realtime record was set last November, NetHack turncount record was set in December
21:34 < ais523> and there have been no changes for 7 years
21:34 < ais523> that's proof it isn't solved
21:35 <+doy> ais523: that's more proof that very few people care about optimum strategy
21:35 < Twinge> doy: There's that too.  Mastermind is probably a better example still, since that actually is completely solved.  (Checked is solved when there are 24 or fewer pieces left on the board.)
21:35 < ais523> doy: hmm, your argument about solved vs. fun to play is an interesting one
21:36 <+doy> if most people are just playing with the goal being to win, then it's not that surprising that optimal strategies haven't really developed as quickly
21:36 < ais523> they randomize starting positions with human checkers tournaments too, I think
21:36 < ais523> it's solved for humans at the highest level, and they clearly don't enjoy it
21:36 <+doy> ais523: chess is possibly a better example
21:36 < ais523> that isn't solved for anyhting
21:36 < ais523> *anything
21:37 <+doy> it's solved for "being better than humans", to any reasonable extent
21:37 < eith> chess is solved on small boards, and computers can beat humans
21:37 < ais523> humans and computers play it different way
21:37 < ais523> *ways
21:37 <+doy> there's maybe one or two people in the world that can beat the best chess computers
21:37 < ais523> would you think it would be a good or bad thing if computers beat humans at Crawl?
21:37 <+doy> i think it would be an irrelevant thing
21:38 < Twinge> ais: Mostly irrelevant - yeah, as doy said =)
21:38 <+doy> unless the computers could come up with strategies that are usable by humans
21:38 <+greensnark> I'd find a good Crawl-playing AI very interesting :P
21:38 <+doy> this was the motivation behind the change to labyrinths for 0.5, for instnace
21:38 < Twinge> But more to the point, it isn't likely to happen unless there is extensive and focused, refined effort put into it.  It's not like you can tell a computer 'okay, do good at Checkers' and it just happens to pull it off.
21:39 < ais523> what did happen with labyrinths, in the end?
21:39 < ais523> I heard that they were changed to change when out of LOS, then changed back again
21:39 <+doy> ais523: the map randomly mutates as you move around
21:39 < Eronarn> greensnark: project: zipcode
21:39 <+doy> that part was never changed back
21:39 <+greensnark> House of Leaves!
21:39 < ais523> ah
21:39 < ais523> which part was?
21:39 <+doy> the part that was changed back was randomizing of wall colors
21:40 < ais523> the optimal strategy in a 0.5 labyrinth is relatively obvious, isn't it? (keep moving in the general direction of the centre, once you find which direction that is)
21:40 < Twinge> ...Until that doesn't work, sure.
21:40 <+doy> well, sure, but there's only one entrance into the center
21:40 <+doy> so moving in the direction of the center isn't always correct
21:40 < ais523> if the maze is continuously changin
21:40 < ais523> *changing
21:40 < ais523> then there'll be an entrance that way eventually
21:41 < TGW> if you have infinite food
21:41 <+doy> it doesn't really change quite fast enough for that to be worth doing
21:41 < eith> probly not before your out of food =p
21:41 < TGW> and wait somewhere out of los
21:41 <+doy> i mean, sure, technically
21:41 < ais523> hmm, but how would it be possible to do faster?
21:41 <+doy> but it's much easier to just wander around
21:41 <+doy> ais523: i use wands of digging for the outer parts
21:41 < ais523> because it's changing, going anywhere else doesn't make you any better off than you were before
21:41 < ais523> doy: oh, didn't realise you were allowed to cheat
21:41 < TGW> it changes slowly
21:41 <+doy> ais523: only for the outer edges
21:41 < TGW> doy: only for the diggable parts
21:42 < ais523> if it /isn't/ changing, you have to map it / use hand-on-wall
21:42 < ais523> that's been a solved problem more or less forever
21:42 <+doy> right
21:42 <+doy> that's why it was changed
21:42 < ais523> so now, there's obviously an optimal strategy but people don't know what it is
21:42 < ais523> so it's mostly a case of stumbling around blindly trying to figure out what to do next
21:42 < TGW> ais523: that's like saying taking a plane to australia doesn't make you better off than you were before because the americas are slowly drifting westward
21:43 <+doy> ais523: what?
21:43 <+doy> i don't see the "obviously an optimal strategy" part
21:43 < ais523> doy: mathematically speaking, there must be one
21:43 < TGW> or "don't know what it is"
21:43 < ais523> because there are only a finite (but very large) number of strategies
21:43 < Twinge> ais: Sure, and Go is theoretically solveable too
21:43 <+doy> ais523: not if there are enough random factors
21:43 < TGW> it's pretty intuitive how to solve a maze
21:43 < TGW> even if it's cheating
21:44 < ais523> solving a changing maze is rather harder, though
21:44 <+doy> if the maze happens to shift in such a way that a path opens up right to the center for you
21:44 <+doy> then walking directly toward the center is optimal
21:44 < ais523> then you take it, obviously
21:44 <+doy> but that's not really something that's knowable in advance
21:44 <+doy> and so i don't see how this proves the existance of an optimal strategy
21:44 < ais523> well, in the absence of any information on which way to go, aiming towards the center is faster than going any other way
21:44 < ais523> on average
21:44 <+doy> sure
21:45 <+doy> at this point, i don't see what exactly you're arguing
21:45 < ais523> neither do I
21:45 < Twinge> That seems to be a pattern
21:45 <+doy> sigh
21:45 < ais523> I think the conversation's got into a dead end
21:45 < ais523> I had a point originally, but got sidetracked
21:45 < ais523> oh, that's it
21:46 < ais523> I was just interested to know what changes had been made, then we got into a discussion and everyone assumed there was some point to make, but there wasn't
21:46 < Twinge> ...So how about those moster exp gains?  Anyone have any further commentary?  So far I've only heard people say Pikel shouldn't be dropped as much, so I changed that, but haven't heard much other feedback...
21:47 < Eronarn> Twinge: generally in favor, though haven't had time to look at your specific numbers very much - i think it would be better if you had them sorted in XP order, and had "fixed" monsters bolded
21:47 < ais523> my current thoughts on monster exp is that changing it will tip the balance of the game, because the monsters are effectively balanced around their exp games
21:47 < ais523> *gains
21:47 <+doy> Twinge: shrug, wyverns and vapours are the only ones i really cared about
21:47 < Eronarn> for comparison
21:47 < Napkin> quitting game after Ossuary
21:47 < Eronarn> ones that peopl agree have good XP value
21:47 < ais523> some monsters will be trivial for some players and hard for others, yet you get the same exp gains whatever
21:47 < Napkin> 7 cursed items thanks to Mummies - and not a single remove curse in that vault - s.u.c.k.y
21:48 < ais523> what really matters is getting the right amount of exp on average
21:48 < ais523> which will depend on what sort of monsters are generated at that depth
21:48 < Eronarn> ais523: individual monster XP matters too
21:48 < Eronarn> for example
21:48 < ais523> and so I think the exp for any individual monster (barring uniques) is mostly irrelevant
21:48 < Eronarn> non-XP gain methods of killing monsters
21:48 < ais523> so long as it sums up to the right amount in total
21:48 < syllogism-> greensnark: another shoals splat
21:48 < Eronarn> don't be so reductionist
21:48 < ais523> Eronarn: hmm, good point
21:48 <+greensnark> syllogism-: Yeah, I saw :P
21:49 < syllogism-> nice post death whine too :P
21:49 < ais523> anyway, sorear said that any attempt to mess with XP caused all sorts of balance bugs
21:49 < ais523> and I /think/ that's why
21:50 <+greensnark> syllogism-: Also, first time I've seen an aquamancer use blink :P
21:50 < Twinge> Eronarn: What do you mean by 'fixed' monsters?
21:50 <+greensnark> I thought it would never happen :P
21:51 < Twinge> ais: We aren't changing the exp formula.  We're special casing specific monsters.  Changing the formula is more in-depth, something to be done down the road, maybe 0.7 or something
21:51 < Twinge> doy: is 146->198 enough for Wyverns, you think?
21:52 < Twinge> @??wyvern
21:52 < Gretell> wyvern (D) | Speed: 15 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 20 | Res: magic(20) | XP: 145.
21:52 < ais523> player ghosts will almost certainly give the "wrong" value whatever you do, I imagine
21:52 < Twinge> @??war dog
21:52 < Gretell> war dog (h) | Speed: 17 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 4/15 | Damage: 12 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: magic(16) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 99.
21:52 < ais523> but that's unlikely to be fixable
21:52 < Twinge> Hmm, probably a little more, but not a low; 212
21:53 < Twinge> ais: It can certainly be made better.  There would still likely be special cases.  The current formula barely accoutns for speed and doesn't account for EV or AC.
21:54 < ais523> the funny thing is, the only good thing about coming up against a player ghost is the exp it gives
21:54 < Twinge> That's the bonus you get for the extra death risk
21:54 < Eronarn> Twinge: fixed = baseline
21:54 < Eronarn> like, say:
21:54 < Eronarn> @??hobgoblin
21:54 < Gretell> hobgoblin (g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-7 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 5 | Res: magic(1) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2.
21:54 < Eronarn> @??ogre
21:54 < Gretell> ogre (O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Damage: 17 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 131.
21:55 < Eronarn> things that are recognizable and people generally agree are accurate XP givers
21:55 < Twinge> I was doing a lot of comparing to ogre, though in the end figured they should be dropped just slightly
21:55 < Eronarn> Twinge: keep in mind that ogres are the first enemy that shows up that gives good XP
21:55 < Eronarn> they are definitely a bit on the 'sack of XP' side... but the early game is a bit XP starved aside from them and
21:56 < Eronarn> @??gnoll
21:56 < Gretell> gnoll (g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 2 | Health: 8-18 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 9 | Res: magic(8) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 14.
21:56 < Eronarn> @??centaur
21:56 < Gretell> centaur (c) | Speed: 15 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 3/7 | Damage: 10 | Res: magic(16) | XP: 111.
21:56 < ais523> and they're so much easier for some characters than others
21:56 < Eronarn> it's funny that those are less than ogres, heh
21:56 < Twinge> Yes.  But there would be a lot of other smaller XP bonuses in the early game.  every gecko, cockroach, or jackal would give a little extra
21:56 < ais523> they come up later, by then they're easier to deal with
21:57 < Eronarn> Twinge: yeah, just something to take into consideration in terms of "morale" value - is it ok if some monsters give more XP than they "should" be worth if it will be a big difference at X point in the game? i say it can be okay in some limitd sense
21:57 < Eronarn> like - people going to blade for the high-density XP
21:57 < Twinge> Nod.
21:57 < Eronarn> in particular ogres give a lump sum of XP, which lets the player victory dance
21:58 < ais523> victory dance?
21:58 < TGW> pikel's being dropped? wot?
21:58 < Twinge> I'm looking at about a 10% drop for it
21:58 < TGW> ais523: scumming exp out of your pool
21:58 < ais523> ah
21:58 < TGW> most often casting at a wall
21:58 < ais523> I do that, just didn't know that's what it was called
21:58 <+doy> i do think that speed should be a bigger factor in the general xp formula
21:58 <+doy> but not sure what kinds of balance effects a more general change like that would have
21:58 < Twinge> TGW: If you too are questioning it, I'll probably leave it how it is then.  My encounters with him lead me to think he could do with a little less even when considering the slaves, but most seem to disagree.
21:59 < ais523> I didn't realise casting at a wall used exp, though, I assumed you had to actually accomplish something to train a skill
21:59 < ais523> the other way seems rather broken...
21:59 < Twinge> doy: I had an idea for that, but figured I should just back-burner it for now, since it'd be best to fix the formula for real if we're going to do so, not just make one tweak that still requires re-looking at most of the monsters.
21:59 <+doy> well, for now it's the only way to get certain skills trained
22:00 < ais523> ouch, I /hope/ that's considered a design flaw
22:00 <+doy> we are certainly open for ideas on better methods for it though
22:00 <+doy> well
22:00 <+doy> "only way" is a bit strong
22:00 <+doy> and that's been getting incremental improvements
22:00 < TGW> ais523: an incredibly persistent design flaw
22:00 <+doy> but overall, yeah, there are still issues
22:00 < ais523> yes, it's OK if the reason it isn't fixed is that it's hard to fix
22:01 < Eronarn> doy: speed should really be calculated in two ways: inverse geometric-ish for pursuit capability, multiplicative for damage output
22:01 < Eronarn> something should be worth a LOT more XP if it's 11 and a LOT less if it's 9, and any further deviation from there should be smaller and smaller increases
22:02 < Eronarn> but speed should be muliplicative-ish for damage output... but with an additional factor to account for burst damage
22:02 < TGW> on an unrelated note, has anyone except eronarn cared about speed 11 ugly things?
22:02 < Twinge> @?ugly thing
22:02 < Gretell> ugly thing (u) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 24-64 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 12 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(32), cold++ | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 311.
22:03 < Twinge> @??ugly thing
22:03 < Gretell> white ugly thing (u) | Speed: 11 (act: 110%) | HD: 8 | Health: 31-58 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 12(cold) | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(32), cold | Chunks: mutagenic | XP: 341.
22:03 <+doy> didn't they get reverted back to speed 10?
22:03 <+doy> i thought sorear said that was an oversight
22:03 < TGW> really?
22:03 < TGW> oh no
22:03 < Eronarn> doy: they were move 10 attack 11 for a bit
22:03 < TGW> what he did was make them move normal but attack fast
22:03 < TGW> which was backwards
22:03 < Eronarn> ugly things should lose amphibious
22:03 < TGW> yeah
22:03 < Eronarn> there's no flavor reason for them to have it
22:04 < Twinge> @??cyan ugly thing
22:04 < Gretell> No Habla Espanol (unknown monster: "cyan ugly thing")
22:04 < TGW> that does seem a bit arbitrary
22:04 < TGW> twinge: same but with elec brand
22:04 <+doy> ah, it was just attack speed that he was talking about
22:04 < Eronarn> personally
22:04 < Eronarn> i think ugly things should lose speed 11
22:04 < Eronarn> but get the pack hunting AI i proposed
22:04 < Eronarn> it will make them a truly unique threat
22:05 < Twinge> I'm not too concerned either way, but have a minor preference for speed 10
22:05 < TGW> you're right they're very indistinct now
22:05 < TGW> twinge: the idea is that you can't kite them forever to get them out of a specific colour
22:05 < Twinge> Ah.
22:05 < Twinge> Hmm.
22:05 < TGW> variable speed was even worse because the bands would seperate themselves
22:05 < Twinge> Yeah.
22:06 < ais523> wouldn't it just be running/pillar-dancing rather than kiting?
22:06 < ais523> to kite, you have to be faster
22:06 <+doy> ais523: to pillar dance you have to be the same speed
22:06 < TGW> well, it would be more like dancing, yes
22:06 < ais523> speed 10 is default for the player, isn't it?
22:07 < Eronarn> TGW: one possibility: brown ugly things lose the acid attack (it's seriously lame), but trail sticky goo that impedes movement of non-ugly things
22:07 <+doy> ais523: yes
22:07 < TGW> no, delay 10
22:07 < ais523> and you can pillar-dance when faster, just wait now and again
22:07 <+doy> ais523: well, i meant that at movement speed 11, the player can't pillar dance
22:07 < TGW> ayup
22:07 < ais523> pillar-dancing never really seems to help, though, you don't regenerate fast enough for it to matter
22:07 < ais523> before something else turns up
22:07 < Eronarn> ais523: you're doing it wrong
22:07 < TGW> ais523: have you seen ugly things in trunk?
22:08 < ais523> TGW: no, except as allies
22:08 < TGW> in the presence of other ugly things they change forms
22:08 < TGW> each form has a different resistance and attack
22:08 < TGW> if you can dance them into any form you want, it messes up the enemy
22:08 < ais523> yes, I can see how pillar-dancing would actually help there
22:09 < TGW> s/into/out of/
22:09 < ais523> you could probably dance into a required form anyway, though, if you didn't mind one hit every ten turns
22:09 < ais523> you might or might not, depending on context
22:10 < TGW> at the very least you can't retain your range
22:11 <+doy> ais523: the forms include ice/fire/acid, so item destruction is an issue
22:11 < ais523> ah
22:12 < Vandal> Were Slings split from Throwing in Master?
22:12 < TGW> they've always been seperate
22:12 < Vandal> Using slings trained throwing
22:12 < TGW> oh, yeah
22:12 < Vandal> due was fixing that last night
22:12 < TGW> what was up with that, anyway?
22:12 < Vandal> I have no idea, they should just cross-train now
22:13 < TGW> warper had a damaging spell in the olden days?
22:13 < TGW> what was that like
22:14 < ais523> hmm, there's quite a lot of flavour potential for damaging with translocations
22:14 <+doy> wasn't it similar to lugonu's bend space?
22:14 < ais523> translocate someone into lava? teleport something on top of their head?
22:14 < ais523> we have Portal Projectile at the moment
22:14 < Vandal> Does anyone know if the slings / throwing split was pushed?
22:15 < Twinge> Still makes the most sense to jsut combine the skills to me at this point
22:15 < Eronarn> Vandal: Split? They were never merged
22:15 < Eronarn> Darts was merged but not throwing
22:15 < Eronarn> Er, not slings, rather
22:15 < Vandal> read up
22:15 < Vandal> just explained this to TGW
22:15 < Twinge> He's talking about the odd overlap training
22:15 < Eronarn> Oh, the training thing
22:15 < Eronarn> I talked to due about it
22:16 < Eronarn> I don't know if he pushed it, but he did agree it probably should go
22:16 < Eronarn> Vandal: Do you know how to use git?
22:16 < Vandal> no
22:16 < Twinge> I don't see it listed on due's update post
22:16 < Eronarn> Vandal: http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref; Everything that CIA reports is recorded here
22:16 < Eronarn> You can search it, or even view the code
22:17 < Vandal> What is CIA?
22:17 < Eronarn> CIA-84
22:17 < eith> its a bot that publishes stuff
22:17 < ais523> the name is a bad pun, which doesn't even make sense any more
22:18 < Eronarn> Doesn't look like it went in yet, though
22:19 < TGW> I should really add greensnark back to devteam
22:19 < TGW> he took himself out, then made hundreds of commits
22:20 <+greensnark> It's temporary, don't strain your typing fingers :P
22:20 < Eronarn> That's weird, does the git search feature not work
22:20 <+doy> greensnark will always be a devteam member at heart
22:20 <+doy> (:
22:20 <+greensnark> Besides, I like going incognito
22:20 <+greensnark> Fewer bug reports in the channel, for one thing :P
22:21 < Twinge> ??devteam
22:21 < Henzell> devteam[1/4]: The Stone Soup Team: Name / SF / IRC: Adam Borowski / castamir / kilobyte, Charles Otto / caotto / pointless, David Lawrense Ramsey / dolorous / -, David Ploog / dploog / dpeg, Enne Walker / ennewalker / Enne
22:22 < TGW> also, you nerfed javelineers
22:22 < TGW> can I have my kobold back
22:23 <+greensnark> If you got your kobold back, wouldn
22:23 <+greensnark> *wouldn't javelineers need to be rewound as well
22:23 <+greensnark> Also, while you were hiding behind pillars, you could have quaffed some healing :P
22:24 <+greensnark> Or at least when you saw the javelineer headed your way :P
22:24 < TGW> you weren't supposed to actually -tv that game
22:24 < Vandal> :)
22:24 <+greensnark> I -tv all Shoals splats :P
22:24 < Vandal> Yeah you were quick getting mine
22:25 <+doy> i need to actually do some more playtesting
22:25 <+doy> haven't played in over a month
22:25 <+doy> so busy!
22:26 <+doy> !lg
22:26 < Henzell> 745. doy the Tainter (L6 NaVM), slain by a jelly on D:5 on 2009-12-30, with 596 points after 5105 turns and 0:37:10.
22:26 <+doy> oh, i guess i played a few nagas a couple days ago
22:26 < Twinge> It was last year, who can remember that far back anyway
22:28 <+doy> !gamesby cv=0.6
22:28 < Henzell> doy (cv=0.6) has played 11 games, between 20091101 and 20091230, won 1 (9.1%), high score 1249339, total score 1298391, total turns 220920, total time 35:06:03.
22:29 <+greensnark> !lg doy s=src
22:29 < Henzell> 745 games for doy: 690x cao, 55x cdo
22:29 <+greensnark> !lg s=src
22:29 < Henzell> 430 games for greensnark: 265x cao, 165x cdo
22:29 < ogaz> !gamesby * cv=0.6
22:29 < Henzell> * (cv=0.6) has played 11813 games, between 20091008 and 20100104, won 22 (0.2%), high score 4049719, total score 101450759, total turns 52857747, total time 4307:14:20.
22:30 <+doy> !gamesby * cv=0.5
22:30 < Henzell> * (cv=0.5) has played 187832 games, between  and 20100104, won 729 (0.4%), high score 36620901, total score 2897722202, total turns 734302454, total time 58760:48:28.
22:30 <+doy> !gamesby * cv=0.4
22:30 < Henzell> * (cv=0.4) has played 153709 games, between 20071106 and 20100104, won 726 (0.5%), high score 33813486, total score 2595843130, total turns 711534058, total time 80852:36:20.
22:34 <+sorear> Eronarn: Yes, pack hunting is cool, speed 11 is a stopgap measure to make them somewhat less boring
22:39 < Eronarn> sorear: I can write up pseudocode for pack behavior if there's someone willing to actually implement it
22:41 < TGW> are poison needles buffed yet?
22:42 < Eronarn> We could probably also hijack the code for some more sophisticated ! commands, right? People have wanted intelligent allies to be, er, more intelligent for a while
22:42 <+sorear> Yes
22:43 < Eronarn> Also, would this likely be stored on a monster level or a dungeon level? Don't want to make a suggestion that ends up being too expensive if n monsters requires !n calls
22:44 < Eronarn> Anyways, class, will wiki it once I get back
22:47 < TGW> jessica is 4 xp?
22:47 < TGW> @??jessica
22:47 < Gretell> Jessica (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Flags: evil, spellcaster | Res: magic(4) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 4 | Sp: pain, slow, haste, blink.
22:47 < TGW> seriously, 4 xp?
22:47 < TGW> @?jessica
22:47 < Gretell> Jessica (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(4) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 4 | Sp: magic dart, slow, haste, blink.
22:47 < TGW> @??orc wizard
22:48 < Gretell> orc wizard (o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-21 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 34 | Sp: magic dart, slow, haste, blink / throw flame, confuse, invisibility, magic dart / throw frost, cantrip, haste, throw flame, magic dart, invisibility.
22:48 <+sorear> TGW: HD1 hurts xp a lot
22:49 < TGW> haste slow hurts the player character alot
22:49 <+doy> @??boggart
22:49 < Gretell> boggart (g) | Speed: 12 | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(18) | XP: 21 | Sp: confuse, slow, invisibility, blink, shadow creatures.
22:49 <+doy> for instance
22:50 < TGW> that's also wrong :\
22:50 < TGW> hmm
22:50 < TGW> !killsby jessica
22:50 < Henzell> 4939 games for * (ckiller=jessica): 56x DashNine, 50x KiloByte, 49x Archibald, 47x heteroy, 47x crawlie, 43x Chog, 40x 78291, 39x Johan, 38x Lemuel, 34x mr0t, 32x Vesto, 31x yap, 29x simul, 29x aristotle, 29x poop, 29x Nikinyo, 29x Radicchio, 28x sorear, 28x chilliwack, 27x ekaterin, 25x TGW, 24x adamzap, 24x daf, 22x Anym, 22x Nexos, 21x Eronarn, 21x aurelian, 20x Grimm, 20x Crackman, 20x Ping, 2...
22:51 < TGW> !lm * uniq=jessica
22:51 < Henzell> 31830. [2010-01-04] TGW the Slasher (L6 HaPa) killed Jessica on turn 4796. (D:4)
22:52 < TGW> !killsby prince ribbit
22:52 < Henzell> 661 games for * (ckiller=prince ribbit): 9x Stormfox, 9x TGW, 9x KiloByte, 9x clouded, 9x Tenaya, 8x heteroy, 8x eben, 8x nmf, 8x IamThem, 7x Vesto, 6x Leibowitz, 6x henryci, 6x 78291, 6x Shane, 5x DashNine, 5x Zicher, 5x oxeimon, 5x bmoore, 5x Arival, 5x Ahrin, 5x LordSloth, 5x Chog, 4x Mong, 4x jejorda2, 4x Moose, 4x CL10283, 4x Amadi, 4x Eli, 4x Johan, 4x zyrkx, 4x nflftw, 4x Shock, 4x assassas...
22:52 < TGW> !lm * uniq=prince ribbit
22:52 < Henzell> 5937. [2010-01-04] rupert the Chiller (L6 MfIE) killed Prince Ribbit on turn 5441. (D:5)
22:54 < TGW> ribbit's 11%, jess is 15%... dunno if that means anything
22:55 < ogaz> !lg * killer=sigmund
22:55 < ogaz> !lm * uniq=sigmund
22:55 < Henzell> 13920. Tenaya the Ruffian (L3 TrBe), worshipper of Trog, slain by Sigmund (a +0,+0 scythe) on D:4 on 2010-01-04, with 145 points after 1015 turns and 0:03:30.
22:55 < Henzell> 30133. [2010-01-04] glassbeat the Shooter (L5 CeHu) killed Sigmund on turn 4036. (D:4)
22:56 < TGW> 46% lol
22:56 < TGW> although I'm guessing a lot of people skip sig... dunno
22:56 < ogaz> no, the death rate is 13920/(13920+30133) which looks more like 30%
22:59 < TGW> 46% as many kills as deaths
23:00 < CIA-84> greensnark * rd4ad9bb7b61d /crawl-ref/source/ (maps.cc maps.h test/shoal-hut.lua): Fix Shoals:$ sometimes producing huts with entrances facing each other, so that both huts are isolated from the rest of the level.
23:00 < TGW> your way is like an inaccurate version of 30% encounters -> death
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23:14 < Napkin> heh - in D4.. I kill a snake with a single dart, but with my axe I need to attack 6 times :D
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23:24 < purge> are the new needle types supposed to effect poison resistant creatures?
23:25 < purge> needle of slow and sleep work on spiny frogs just fine it seems
23:25 <+sorear> they aren't poison
23:26 <+sorear> find a slow or sleep resistant monster
23:26 < syllogism-> how they will be resisted hasnt been decided yet
23:26 < purge> ah they are magic ok
23:26 < syllogism-> they work on cerebov even
23:26 < purge> thats great anyways because my spriggan is having trouble without them :D
23:27 < syllogism-> you'll only get a turn or two of paralysis, but that's enough to get some stabs in
23:27 < purge> if they are asleep they should wake up to noise or being attacked even a single time
23:27 < purge> (this may be how it functions now)
23:28 <+kilobyte> with >300 hp stabs, you can insta-kill even Cerebov with those
23:33 < purge> sleeping needles definately need to mulch after a single use.. its just ridiculous i am invincible in lair with my spriggan
23:33 < purge> death yak? sleep+stab = dead
23:34 <+doy> i do like that it allows stabbers who aren't enchanters now though
23:34 <+sorear> the new needles need nerfing, yes
23:34 <+sorear> I don't think anybody disagrees
23:35 < purge> i don't even want to play.. i feel like i am cheating lol
23:43 < purge> is there a feedback wiki page for the new needles?
23:43 < syllogism-> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:issue:41&s[]=ranged&s[]=combat
23:44 < purge> can i create a new title at the bottom, "Trunk Feedback"?
23:44 < syllogism-> you can but there's a needle section
23:44 < purge> well it can always be reverted nvm
23:44 < eith> its all trunk aint it
23:45 < purge> eith: now that the changes are actually in trunk though
23:45 < eith> ah
23:45 < purge> instead i'll call it, "Testing Feedback"
23:48 < purge> k done if someone else wants to add comments
23:50 < Twinge> ...There exists 130 potions of poison in this game ;O
23:50 < Twinge> Oops, wrong channel.
23:52 < Mu_> have doors been changed at all, or door detection
23:52 < Mu_> an awful lot of doors i come across now are open, and this includes almost every secret door i see which is really weird
23:54 < Mu_> i saw numbers do my Tar:7 vault the other week which includes a pyramid full of secret doors that's supposed to be difficult to get into, but every door generated open and he just walked to the centre
23:57 <+greensnark> Mu_: Maybe monsters are opening the doors?
23:57 <+greensnark> Are the doors open in wizmode tests?
23:58 < Mu_> there are no monsters in the pyramid
23:58 < cbus> sorear, is it meant that you need high dart skill to use them?
23:58 < cbus> (needles)
23:58 <+greensnark> Mu_: Are the doors open if you check in wizmode?
23:59 < Mu_> i'll go and look
23:59 <+greensnark> You can use X, move the cursor and hit T to wizard teleport to any place on the level