20:12 -!- kilobyte [n=kilobyte@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:12 -!- Irssi: ##crawl-dev: Total of 41 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 6 voices, 33 normal]
20:12 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v kilobyte] by ChanServ
20:12 -!- Irssi: Join to ##crawl-dev was synced in 0 secs
20:12 <+greensnark> I've always wondered what acr was
20:13 < haranp> maybe 'A CRawl [file]'?
20:13 <+greensnark> That's a stretch :P
20:15 <+greensnark> I wonder why new players are always so afraid of using autoexplore
20:15 < haranp> because they don't know how bloody complicated it is :)
20:15 <+Keskitalo> Any ideas or themes for overflow Ely altars? I guess they should be calm, peaceful and open. I don't think obstacles or challenges suit the Ely altars.
20:16 < TGW> the game should detect when you're not using autoexplore and become more and more boring until you give in
20:17 < nrook> an ely altar with good-neutral monsters would be fun
20:17 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: Fountains, pools of soothing water, neutral quokkas!
20:17 <+greensnark> You could rename the quokkas to fluffy bunnies :P
20:18 < TGW> I want a yred altar with withered plants and butterfly zombies
20:18 < syllogism-> you could do a retro vault with nanoquakkas, robots and Swords
20:18 <+Keskitalo> Hehe. Can you place neutral monsters? Won't they just run for the stairs? And what are all the flavours of neutral monsters anyway..
20:18 < TGW> but butterfly zombies are messed up
20:18 < syllogism-> and dorgis!
20:18 <+doy> can you make patrolling neutral monsters?
20:18 <+kilobyte> Keskitalo: I added att:good_neutral a few days ago.
20:18 <+Keskitalo> TGW: sounds good! I think the butterfly zombies were fixed. I seem to recall a commit message along those lines.
20:19 <+greensnark> Oh, yes, you could add butterflies
20:19 < TGW> Keskitalo: this was pretty recent, I dunno
20:19 <+greensnark> The non-zombie variety
20:19 <+Keskitalo> kilobyte: Cool! What does good_neutral do exactly? Is it the pacification neutral?
20:19 <+greensnark> What's the problem with butterfly zombies?
20:19 < haranp> cbus: about issue 314
20:19 <+greensnark> @??butterfly zombie
20:19 < Gretell> butterfly zombie (z) | Speed: 23 | HD: 1 | Health: 6-11 | AC/EV: 0/20 | Flags: undead, evil | Res: magic(1), cold++, poison | XP: 2.
20:19 < nrook> it's the neutral that doesn't attack you, I think
20:19 < cbus> haranp, mmm
20:20 < haranp> why should the Qv: string get updated when cycling with C-n, C-p? After all you're not quivering the items yet
20:20 <+kilobyte> Keskitalo: pacification uses merely att:neutral -- pacified monsters keep attacking you, just at a lower priority
20:20 <+kilobyte> Keskitalo: but att:good_neutral won't
20:20 < cbus> haranp, it is pretty much quivered until you cancel
20:20 <+Keskitalo> kilobyte: Ahh, ok. Thanks!
20:20 <+Keskitalo> Peaceful quokkas sounds right.
20:21 <+Keskitalo> Water is good too. Let's have some good_neutral fish.
20:21 < cbus> You feel momentarily confused.
20:21 < haranp> it feels counterintuitive that you would have X quivered, then you press cancel, and suddenly Y is quivered. So I feel like it only becomes quivered once you fire
20:22 < cbus> "oClarity doesn't autoid if you drink confusion that is unidentified with an unidentified amulet of clarity
20:22 < cbus> is that a bug?
20:22 < cbus> haranp, hm,m yeah thats true, the prompt is a bit hard to follow though
20:22 <+kilobyte> yes, the message tells you it was confusion
20:23 < cbus> kilobyte, and since teh amulet was unidentified and I know its clarity it should also be identified (only thing that prevents confusion)
20:23 < haranp> what if it's a randart? can they provide clarity?
20:24 < cbus>  Amulet     : p - a runed jade amulet {tried, clarity}
20:24 < cbus> not a randart
20:24 <+Keskitalo> TGW: They don't attack at least.
20:24 <+kilobyte> randart amulets can have clarity as base, yeah
20:24 < TGW> keskitalo: yeah but they give exp
20:24 < TGW> and follow you around
20:24 <+kilobyte> you can have clarity from a mutation
20:24 <+Keskitalo> TGW: Ah, that they do.
20:25 < cbus> I don't in this case
20:25 < haranp> the question is whether you should ID if !extrinisic_amulet_effect()
20:26 < TGW> kilobyte: but you can't accidentalaly have a mutation :|
20:26 < haranp> I'll have it give ISFLAG_KNOW_TYPE
20:30 <+kilobyte> we should make an unified function to id stuff, right now most places will tell you the item just ided, some won't
20:30 < haranp> agreed
20:30 < haranp> what message would be appropriate here? no message, just type-id the amulet?
20:31 < haranp> (and echo its name?)
20:31 <+doy> sounds fine
20:31 < haranp> like what happens with rings of fire
20:31 <+kilobyte> mprf("You are wearing: %s", amu->name(DESC_INVENTORY_EQUIP).c_str());
20:33 < haranp> actually, this can go in confuse_player
20:33 < haranp> nowhere else seems able to say "You feel momentarily confused."
20:37 <+Keskitalo> kilobyte: Was it so that trees as the map edge were problematic?
20:38 -!- Eifeltrampel [n=roca@dslb-084-063-083-238.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:39 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:39 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
20:39 < haranp> hi dpeg!
20:39 <+Keskitalo> hi dpeg!
20:39 <+kilobyte> Keskitalo: is there a problem?  They're less an issue than open sea (fully transparent).
20:39 <+kilobyte> dpeg: meow!
20:40 <+Keskitalo> kilobyte: No, but I remember you encased some vault that had trees in rock because it didn't end up good. I haven't tried mine yet.
20:40 <+kilobyte> no, I did that only it looked ugly if a corridor was generated in the back of that vault
20:41 <+kilobyte> it looked regular and silly
20:41 <+kilobyte> s/only it/only because it/
20:41 <+Keskitalo> Ah, I see. Thanks!
20:43 <+Keskitalo> It's ok to have several TAGS lines, right?
20:43 <+greensnark> Yes
20:44 <+Keskitalo> Those are getting a bit long.
20:46 < CIA-84> Enne * r5ee20d6f13b4 /crawl-ref/source/ (5 files in 3 dirs): [291] New slime creature tiles (purge).
20:46 <+greensnark> Yay purge
20:46 <+Keskitalo> Seconded!
20:46 < cbus> does might affect ranged?
20:46 < purge> :D
20:46 <+greensnark> Did you draw a skull+bones on the titanic slime creature tile? :)
20:46 < purge> lol, i forgot
20:49 < CIA-84> haranp * rda5a6f678e81 /crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Type-identify amulets of clarity when you resist confusion based on
20:49 < haranp> I *like* git's speed :)
20:49 <+doy> seriously
20:49 <+doy> (:
20:50 < haranp> oh, sorry, meant to credit cbus in the commit message
20:51 -!- TwingeHatesISP [n=user@97-124-173-75.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:54 < Eronarn> 13:40 < Vandal> Looking at a big list of numbers on a chart is unintuitive unless you're a computer :)
20:54 < Eronarn> 13:40 < Vandal> maybe an EVE player
20:54 < Eronarn> I'm an EVE player, so I think all this aptitude talk is very silly.
20:55 < Eronarn> The numbers are fine.
20:55 < cbus> I'm not, I still think its silly
20:55 < ogaz> I agree with cbus 
20:55 <+kilobyte> a big list of numbers is easier to comprehend than a big table of meaningless adjectives
20:55 < cbus> or a big list of diagrams that make no sense
20:55 < cbus> since tehy are loglin or whatever
20:56 < haranp> who do I ask to upgrade my status on mantis?
20:56 < ogaz> I think my favorite part was when he suggested less spell levels/xl for trolls because that's clearly not numbers
20:56 <+greensnark> haranp: Napkin
20:56 <+greensnark> Napkin: You around?
20:57 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-164-30.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20:57 < haranp> guess not
20:57 -!- TwingeHatesISP is now known as Twinge
20:58 <+greensnark> !tell Napkin Could you set haranp as an developer on Mantis?
20:58 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let Napkin know.
20:58 < cbus> kilobyte, I still have issues understanding spell hunger since they got renamed to weird adjectives
20:59 < Siber> I dunknow, the new spell hunger works for me
20:59 < purge> weird? they are just the different types of food you find
20:59 -!- TwingeHatesISP [n=user@97-124-173-1.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:59 < cbus> purge, and you have to look all of them up to realize how much nutrition they are
20:59 < TwingeHatesISP> Eronarn: I'm looking at a middle-ground now; a logrithmic scale that simply shows numbers like 5 or -3 for the various apts.
21:00 <+doy> someone should give haranp +v too
21:00 <+greensnark> I think due has ops
21:00 <+greensnark> !tell due Could you make haranp +v for ##crawl-dev. Thanks!
21:00 < syllogism-> sorear obviously too
21:00 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
21:00 < Eronarn> TwingeHatesISP: that would be fine except i'm not sure that it's worth the time
21:01 < Eronarn> i'd rather see just some small tweaks to apts
21:01 < Eronarn> like removing the weird DS apts
21:01 < TwingeHatesISP> Which is to say, still no adjectives, still a good level of precision, but the numbers are easier to read and easier to work with (especially compared to a 'round to 10' scale, where 40 to 50 is insanely different to 250 to 240.)
21:01 < Eronarn> or making races have equal elemental apts unless there's a compelling reason for them not to
21:01 < TwingeHatesISP> Eronarn: I disagree there actually, I LIKE the DS oddness.
21:01 < TwingeHatesISP> It fits thematically imo
21:01 < Eronarn> TwingeHatesISP: no it doesn't
21:01 < Eronarn> !apt ds
21:01 < Henzell> DS: Air=110, Armour=110, Axes=110, Bows=110, Conj=100, Xbows=110, Darts=110, Div=110, Dodge=110, Earth=110, Ench=110, Evo=82, Exp=140, Fighting=100, Fire=100, Ice=110, Inv=60!, Long=110, Maces=110, Nec=90, Poison=100, Polearms=110, Shields=110, Short=110, Slings=110, Splcast=130, Stab=110, Staves=110, Stealth=110, Summ=100, Throw=110, Tloc=110, Tmut=110, Traps=110, Unarmed=110
21:02 < Eronarn> why are they better at conj/sum but not tmut? (they have lots of muts) why are they better at fire but not ice? there is an ice hell
21:02 < TwingeHatesISP> They're better at things you'd expect a demon spawn to be better at
21:02 < purge> if you want to be thematic, once the new DS overhaul goes in you'd have to finish making them like draconians and change their spell apts depending on their mutations
21:02 < Eronarn> purge: no
21:02 < ogaz> Eronarn: there are more fire-related demons than ice-related demons, I think
21:02 < Eronarn> dpeg is against this for DS, or for muts relying on which skills you have
21:03 < TwingeHatesISP> Eronarn: Then I'd suggest tweaking e.g. Ice to be slightly better to, rather than just flatlining everything
21:03 < Eronarn> ogaz: not by a very significant amount... only if you count hell hounds / hogs / efreets
21:03 <+Keskitalo> Y
21:03 < cbus> eronarn, most 1's
21:03 < Eronarn> TwingeHatesISP: i made a comment to that effect on your page. i'm fine with them having some bonuses, just, they should be more consistent
21:03 < cbus> eronarn, no hellfrost but hellfire
21:03 < Eronarn> cbus: hellfire isn't fire, it's bullshit
21:03 < CIA-84> kilobyte * rb8fc8202e009 /crawl-ref/source/mon-project.cc: IOOD: use the actual (floating point) ray traced.
21:04 < syllogism-> aw just started compile
21:04 <+greensnark> :P
21:04 < Eronarn> TwingeHatesISP: Like: they get 90 apt in conj, sum, nec. But no tweaks to pois, fire, ice, etc.
21:04 <+kilobyte> yeah, hellfire should be either removed or made sane
21:04 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-173-75.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
21:05 < TwingeHatesISP> Eronarn: Sure, there's several areas like that.  Really I think some races were kind of lazily made as far as apts go 'eh, we'll just make all these spell apts the same across the board, good enough'.  Some minor tweaks in various areas add some reasonable flavor I think, even if they don't really make a huge gameplay impact
21:05 <+Keskitalo> haranp: I made you a developer in the Mantis.
21:05 <+Keskitalo> !tell Napkin I made haranp a dev in Mantis.
21:05 < Henzell> Keskitalo: OK, I'll let Napkin know.
21:06 < syllogism-> oh recompile took less than 10 seconds :P
21:06 -!- TwingeHatesISP is now known as Twinge
21:07 < TGW> new veh is really awesome
21:09 < syllogism-> hmm can IOOD now ever miss?
21:09 < cbus> ?? IOOD
21:09 < Eronarn> 'Good list. I feel that Rage will be useful only if it (temporarily) also turns the monster neutral (i.e. will attack anyone nearby)' oh wow
21:09 < Henzell> iskenderuns orb of destruction[1/2]: Homing missile spell in master.  Moves at speed 30 with inertia - if something casts this at you, sidestep, but watch out behind you!  May or may not make 0.6
21:09 < Eronarn> why didn't i think of that
21:09 < Napkin> perfect, Keskitalo 
21:09 < Henzell> Napkin: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
21:10 <+Keskitalo> Eronarn: Sounds nice
21:10 < Eronarn> Twinge: I actually feel exactly the opposite:  think that spell apts should be the same across the board except when there is a really compelling reason
21:10 <+greensnark> !tell due Gastronok almost killed me :P
21:10 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
21:11 <+Keskitalo> I see good_neutral critters generate debug messages in wizard build.
21:11 <+kilobyte> syllogism-: it can, the change made it behave more faithfully when cast in a non-cardinal direction
21:11 < TGW> ??iskenderuns orb of destruction[2]
21:11 <+greensnark> And wow, it takes forever for Gastronok Slow to wear off
21:11 < Henzell> iskenderuns orb of destruction[2/2]: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:spell:iood
21:11 <+Keskitalo> When they try to chew the player but decide not to after all.
21:12 < syllogism-> iood even always hits these hasted butterflies :(
21:13 <+Keskitalo> The patrolling peaceful quokka is really amazing in this vault.
21:14 <+Keskitalo> Skipping about, tralla la.
21:18 < CIA-84> Keskitalo * r25100ac4c4d4 /crawl-ref/source/dat/altar.des: Temple overflow altar vaults for Elyvilon.
21:19 < CIA-84> Keskitalo * r6f8b0a36ccd4 /crawl-ref/source/dat/altar.des: Move a non-overflow altar out of the overflow section.
21:19 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: Did you give it dialog? :P
21:19 <+Keskitalo> Nope, nor a name. :)
21:19 < haranp> eronarn: issue 183: I just had Kiku protect me from torment in wizmode. Can we close this bug?
21:19 < Napkin> Hi haranp 
21:19 < haranp> (when reading ?oTorment)
21:19 < haranp> hi Napkin
21:20 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["zzz"]
21:20 < Eronarn> haranp: sure
21:21 < Eronarn> I'm actually excited to log in and play some crawl with these changes :D
21:21 < cbus> make -j4 distclean wizard stops after distclean
21:22 < Napkin> no such target, cbus
21:22 < cbus> napkin, which one?
21:22 < Napkin> make WIZARD=y 
21:22 < cbus> make -j4 wizard doesn't complain about targets though
21:25 -!- qbert911 [n=myredire@137.sub-75-194-167.myvzw.com] has quit []
21:26 < CIA-84> greensnark * rcf82459f23b7 /crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Fix two-weaponing monsters throwing their offhand weapon in combat.
21:27 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-180-137.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit []
21:28 < haranp> should it be even possible to see items in deep water?
21:28 < haranp> and if it is, should it be possible to sacrifice them?
21:28 < syllogism-> it is now as a merfolk
21:28 < haranp> also for humans
21:28 < haranp> (with a !oLev)
21:28 < syllogism-> and no sacrificing them sounds like a bug
21:30 < haranp> but should humans see them?
21:30 < syllogism-> I don't see why, they can't do anything about them unless they worship Fedhas
21:30 < Eronarn> it should only be possible to sac items/corpses if you could've reached them
21:31 < syllogism-> oh you mean see them like that, merfolk can see them from any distance
21:31 < CIA-84> Keskitalo * r494a04fef637 /crawl-ref/source/dat/altar.des: A small overflow altar for Yred.
21:31 <+doy> can you apport them out of deep water?
21:31 < syllogism-> no
21:31 <+doy> seems like that might be reasonable to allow?
21:32 < haranp> well...
21:32 <+greensnark> It's underwater, so you wouldn't be able to target the apport
21:32 < haranp> the simpler solution is to have them go poof when they splash unless you're a merfolk
21:32 <+greensnark> haranp: Shoals tides can change deep water -> floor
21:32 <+greensnark> And Fedhas sunlight can do likewise
21:32 < haranp> hm
21:33 < haranp> so is water moderately dirty? i.e. you can see what's there if you're standing on top of it, but not otherwise unless you're a merfolk?
21:33 < haranp> then we can just change offer_items() not to try to offer them if you can't reach them
21:34 <+greensnark> I'd say non-merfolk can't even see the items under deep water
21:34 <+greensnark> Even if directly overhead
21:35 <+doy> merfolk shouldn't be able to see them when levitating then
21:35 < haranp> for that matter it's kind of odd that you can offer when levitating
21:35 < syllogism-> right now merfolk can see them just like normal items
21:36 <+doy> merfolk should be able to see them if they have los entirely through deep water
21:36 < haranp> for consistency, either you can't offer while levitating, or else you can offer underwater items
21:36 <+doy> as in, you can only see items in water if you're actually underwater
21:37 <+doy> i don't see why you shouldn't be able to offer while levitating
21:37 <+doy> you're just telling your god "i give you these items"
21:37 < haranp> doy: what about ~.@ where the @ is in deep water? should you be able to see an item in the ~?
21:37 <+doy> if you can't see items underwater, offering doesn't make sense
21:37 < haranp> but you know that the items are there
21:37 <+doy> "i give you these items that i don't know about"
21:37 < haranp> when you're levitating over them
21:37 < TGW> Eifeltrampel's ghost hits your orb of destruction!
21:38 < TGW> 1) is that a bug, 2) is it known?
21:38 < syllogism-> feature?
21:38 <+doy> haranp: well, that might want changing?
21:38 < Napkin> crash your crawl? numpad 0, then a number, numpad enter (does nothing), normal return key -> crash
21:38 <+greensnark> TGW: Ut;s a feature
21:38 < TGW> really?
21:38 < TGW> huh, ok
21:38 < syllogism-> yes, should lower their hp though
21:38 <+greensnark> Why do you think the orb is a monster :)
21:38 < syllogism-> so they can actually destroy it
21:38 < TGW> oh ok
21:38 < TGW> @??orb of destruction
21:38 < Gretell> orb of destruction (*) | Speed: 30 | HD: 5 | Health: 50 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Flags: non-living, lev | Res: magic(immune), hellfire+++, cold+++, elec++, poison+++, acid+++ | XP: 0.
21:38 <+greensnark> heteroy had a centaur shoot one of his orbs in Shoal:$
21:39 < TGW> I suppose that makes sense
21:39 < Eronarn> i think that it should maybe only be hittable with ranged attacks/spells/weapons
21:39 <+greensnark> That was after he sent two into rock wall :P
21:39 < Eronarn> hitting it with a tentacle to make it not hit... you
21:39 < Eronarn> is kind of silly
21:39 < TGW> this spell is really awesome btw
21:39 < Eronarn> TGW: i still say it should be a multi-projectile spell, rather than yet another single target conjuration
21:40 < syllogism-> most areas are too cramped for that to be interesting
21:40 < Eronarn> syllogism-: it's not a bad thing if we have spells that encourage you to fight in open areas
21:41 < haranp> doy: depends on how polluted Crawl's water supply is
21:41 <+kilobyte> it should be either unkillable or have a lot less hp
21:41 <+doy> haranp: right
21:41 < Eronarn> keep in mind
21:41 < Eronarn> a square can fit a giant in it
21:41 < Eronarn> or a dragon
21:41 < haranp> napkin: can you reproduce this with keys that my laptop can send? :)
21:42 < Eronarn> and deep water is deep enough to totally submerge a standing ogre
21:42 < Eronarn> that's a *lot* of water for items to be under
21:42 <+kilobyte> or to drown that giant
21:42 < cbus> the new book of brands isn't sorted by level
21:42 < cbus> is that a bug or something done on purpose?
21:43 < Eronarn> probably not
21:43 <+doy> probably because people have been shifting the spell levels around
21:43 < cbus>  a - Corona                       Enchantment                   1 b - Swiftness                    Enchantment/Air               2 c - Cause Fear                   Enchantment                   5 d - Fire Brand                   Enchantment/Fire              2 e - Freezing Aura                Enchantment/Ice               2 f - Poison Weapon                Enchantment/Poison            3
21:43 < cbus> is the current state
21:43 < Napkin> hehe, I can't reproduce it either - but a buddy of mine (Eifeltrumpel) is trying to find out why it does so for him
21:44 <+greensnark> That 0 thing sounds like it's yet another case of command-repeat crashing Crawl
21:44 <+greensnark> The repeat code is so loaded with temperamental asserts :P
21:45 <+greensnark> assert(!is_tuesday()); assert(!is_northern_hemisphere()) etc
21:45 < Napkin> the weird this is, that after you press 0,9,numad-enter, this is shown on the screen: -Number of times to repeat, then command key: 9
21:45 < Napkin> so it's not accepting the enter
21:45 < CIA-84> kilobyte * rce6832037843 /crawl-ref/source/spl-book.cc: Sort the Book of Brands by level.
21:45 < Napkin> if you press the "normal" return key then, both these lines show up immediately:
21:45 < Napkin> -Enter command to be repeated:
21:45 < Napkin>  Unknown command, not repeating.
21:46 < Napkin> -----
21:46 < Napkin> so I guess, part of his numpad-keycode is in amount, part in "command to be repeated"?
21:46 < Ashenzari> Fix rod descriptions (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=316) by Eronarn
21:47 <+greensnark> Napkin: Is this on cdo or Windows?
21:47 < Eifeltrampel> Hi
21:47 < Napkin> maybe a gnome-terminal thingy?
21:47 < Napkin> gnome-terminal and playing on CDO
21:48 <+greensnark> Hmm
21:48 < Napkin> Hi Eifeltrampel ;)
21:48 <+greensnark> I so happen to have a keypad here
21:48 < Napkin> try xterm, Eifeltrampel?
21:48 <+greensnark> Can I try a local repro?
21:48 <+greensnark> I do not have gnome-terminal though
21:48 -!- by [n=rob@g225122029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
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21:48 < Eifeltrampel> kk, i'll test it with xterm
21:48 <+greensnark> by!
21:48 < Napkin> rob!
21:48 <+by> hi
21:49 < Eifeltrampel> Same behaviour
21:49 <+by> happy new year everybody
21:49 < Napkin> oh
21:49 < Napkin> same to you, by :)
21:49 < Napkin> weird.. no idea what it could be then
21:50 <+greensnark> I don't get the crash
21:50 <+greensnark> What was the sequence again
21:50 <+greensnark> Numpad-0 <count> Numpad-Enter Enter?
21:50 < TGW> iood strikes me as rather overpowered
21:50 < Eifeltrampel> 0 AnyNumer NumpadEnter Enter
21:50 <+greensnark> Let me try on cdo
21:51 <+greensnark> Eifeltrampel: Oh, this is trunk, right?
21:51 < Eifeltrampel> yes
21:51 < Napkin> maybe it's your special "gaming" equipment, Eifel ;))
21:52 <+greensnark> I guess it's something gnome-terminal is sending Crawl
21:52 < Eifeltrampel> Yeah, my pro gamepad ;-)
21:52 < Eifeltrampel> No, I have the same behaviour with xterm
21:52 < Napkin> laptop with external usb numpad is just not compatible anymore :-P
21:53 < Eifeltrampel> Ok, back to the old C64 keyboard :D
21:54 < Eronarn> g - a wand of frost {zapped: 16}
21:54 < Eronarn> ijyb :(
21:54 < Napkin> Ijyb <3
21:54 <+greensnark> Eifeltrampel: Out of curiosity, what command were you trying to repeat?
21:54 < Eifeltrampel> The eat command
21:55 <+greensnark> Can't get the crash here :/
21:55 < cbus> the new AM looks cool
21:55 < cbus> gonna try a SpAM
21:55 < Eifeltrampel> At least I would press e at next
21:56 < syllogism-> +9 rods at 27 evo recharge pretty fast, 0,75mp/turn or something?
21:56 < syllogism-> or maybe 0.5 :P
21:57 < Ashenzari> Short blades should be of Evasion, not Protection (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=317) by Eronarn
21:57 < Napkin> but non-numpad enter works, right, eifel?
21:57 < Napkin> i like them to be of protection!
21:57 < Eifeltrampel> Yes, normal enter works
21:57 < Napkin> at least no show stopper then :)
21:58 < Eifeltrampel> Ohhh wait :D
21:58 < Eifeltrampel> Numpad enter ist accepted, but still I'm able to send the normal enter afterwards. And that crashes crawl
21:58 <+Enne> by: Do you remember why you got rid of GOTO_LAST?
21:59 <+Enne> by: It seems like your 1e11d23 change caused http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=212
21:59 <+by> it didn't seem to be actually implemented
22:00 <+by> it was probably an attempt at cleanup
22:00 <+Enne> Ok.  Maybe there's some better way to do it than GOTO_LAST, anyway.
22:01 <+by> I'll have to check, but the change could possibly be reverted
22:02 < Ashenzari> Artificers should start with rods in the 'a' slot if they have tolerable M&F apt (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=318) by Eronarn
22:02 <+by> it's 7a07c0
22:02 <+Enne> Maybe I'll just implement a current_region() function and use that in the line reader.
22:04 < Napkin> something is generally wrong about "repeating", it seems?
22:05 < Napkin> or does anyone see the "Enter command to be repeated:" after giving the amount and before inputing the command?
22:06 <+by> Enne: the change could be reverted, but the way things worked before was horribly unclear :)
22:07 <+by> does wherex() in tiles return the messagewindow x?
22:08 <+Enne> wherex() returns the current region's x.
22:08 <+by> at any rate, everything in line_reader appeared to use absolute coordinates
22:08 <+by> wherex() in console returns screen coordinates I believe
22:09 <@dpeg> haranp: Hi!
22:09 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
22:09 <@dpeg> also everyone else :)
22:10 < haranp> hello :)
22:10 <+by> so if GOTO_LAST had actually been implemented, line_reader would have been broken
22:10 <+Enne> Hmm.  Maybe it was ignored for ascii?
22:10 <+Enne> (Not saying that's not horribly unclear.  Just trying to puzzle out how it worked.)
22:11 <+by> I think so
22:11 <+by> just revert 7a07c0a if you like
22:12 <+by> Enne: you should know, it's your code originally :)
22:13 <+Enne> For the record, I did adopt a large part of the tiles code.
22:13 <@dpeg> I am not happy with: minor aptitude differences; items in deep water.
22:14 <@dpeg> the items should be all washed away
22:15 <+by> it seems GOTO_LAST was always tiles specific -- an #ifdef USE_TILE might be better
22:15 < haranp> dpeg: so should all items in deep water go poof?
22:16 < Napkin> macmacmac
22:16 <@dpeg> kilobyte: there was some feedback on IOOD yesterday. Not sure if it turned into wiki/item, though.
22:16 < Napkin> Hi dpeg! Got my mail?
22:17 < haranp> what is the git equivalent of svn revert?
22:17 < Napkin> git revert
22:17 < Napkin> ;)
22:18 < Vandal> oh hi dpeg
22:18 < haranp> then why does it say scary things about committing?
22:18 <+Enne> haranp: Don't listen to Napkin.  It's 'git checkout'
22:18 <+kilobyte> dpeg: it was gone from my scrollback, and I didn't have logging on :(
22:18 <+Enne> You re-checkout the pristine version on top of your modified copy.
22:18 <@dpeg> haranp: yes, I think that's better for gameplay. Do we really want merfolk players to fully explore the water area?
22:18 < Napkin> oops, yes.. don't listen to people that have no clue about svn :D sorry!
22:19 < haranp> napkin: don't worry, I didn't :)
22:19 <+kilobyte> won't autoexplore already do that?
22:19 < Eronarn> kilobyte: yes
22:19 < haranp> dpeg: this is fine by me, just want to make sure that it's OK
22:19 < Napkin> what's the svn equivalent of git revert then? :D
22:19 <+Enne> 'git revert' reverts things you've committed.
22:19 < Vandal> I made you a wiki page with a sample of what converting the apts table would look like, then an experimental conversion from that into new apt catagory values
22:20 < Vandal> into a 5 level system, that is
22:20 <@dpeg> haranp: should be discussed a bit, there seem to be other ideas around
22:20 <+doy> Napkin: svn merge -r5:4 && svn commit
22:20 <+doy> or so
22:20 < Vandal> it would be easy to make that into a 7 though
22:20 <@dpeg> Vandal: I already replied!
22:20 < Vandal> oh!
22:20 < Napkin> evil!
22:20 <@dpeg> reply is harsh, don't take it personal
22:20 <+greensnark> Napkin: Can you copy out Eifeltrampel's save?
22:21 <+greensnark> I'm in Linux atm, don't have the cdo ssh key here :)
22:21 <@dpeg> proposal: items in deep water are "washed away", no matter what?
22:21 < Napkin> sure
22:21 <+greensnark> dpeg: Shoals tides?
22:21 <@dpeg> in particular, items can get washed away by the tide
22:21 <+greensnark> Eek
22:21 < Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/saves/Eifeltrampel-5568306-100103-2221.tar.bz2
22:21 <@dpeg> that's good!
22:21 <+greensnark> No, it'll drive players mad :P
22:21 <+greensnark> Better to restore the old behaviour of tide washing items to safety
22:21  * dpeg does not care about more mad players.
22:21 < Vandal> Is Rob the same person as PV?
22:22 <+greensnark> dpeg: Not mad in a good way
22:22 < Eronarn> we don't need to add any more reasons to mem apport
22:22 <@dpeg> greensnark: fine with me, but it sounds like more work :)
22:22 <+greensnark> The tide used to wash items to safety before the items-in-deep-water change happened
22:22 <+greensnark> So restoring that is easy
22:22 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, that would be also good, because it mirrors the behaviour for the player
22:22 <@dpeg> are monsters also washed to safety?
22:23 <+greensnark> Yes
22:23 < haranp> so items dropped in deep water still go poof?
22:23 <@dpeg> awesome
22:23 <+greensnark> If they cannot be moved to safety, the water remains shallow there
22:23 <@dpeg> haranp: I'd say so.
22:23 <@dpeg> greensnark: this can be abused! :)
22:23 <+greensnark> dpeg: Pretty hard :P
22:23 <@dpeg> syllogism- will find a way!
22:23 <+greensnark> Fedhasites should have a good time, though
22:23 <@dpeg> yesd
22:23 <+greensnark> Shoals has a lot of plants
22:23 <@dpeg> they can feel like Moses :)
22:23 <+greensnark> And water at plant position is always shallow
22:24  * greensnark reboots.
22:24 < Vandal> ah.. dpeg I get what you mean, actually
22:24 <@dpeg> Vandal: cool
22:24 < Vandal> Someone else explained the same point
22:24 < Vandal> Twinge I think
22:25 < Vandal> He said 40-50 is the same dif as 200-250
22:25 < Eronarn> !tell due Blowguns with no skill are probably too powerful. May need to do something like: current skill calc - 10, if negative result, -1/result chance of kicking in at *all*. Floor might not be necessary in that case. 
22:25 < Henzell> Eronarn: OK, I'll let due know.
22:25 <@dpeg> I am not sure about the best number of aptitude steps: 6 is a bit low; 8 would work. But with 7 we could use +++ ++ + . - -- --- in the list of aptitudes
22:26 <+greensnark> 7 is not a power of 3!
22:26 <+greensnark> This is an insuperable obstacle :P
22:26 <+greensnark> 9 now :P
22:26 < Vandal> The other thing I wanted to ask was if you were in favor of trying not to depend on apts so much to make races seem different
22:26 <+greensnark> Er
22:26 < |eith|> this is madness 8)
22:26 <+greensnark> Aptitudes are the primary thing that differentiates species
22:27 <+greensnark> It's good to have secondary factors
22:27 <+greensnark> But aptitudes are right up there
22:27 < Eronarn> !tell sorear The rod stuff works great, but I think it is too powerful in the case of DDAr. The racial recharge means they can easily get a +5 weapon in the first few dlvls.
22:27 < Henzell> Eronarn: OK, I'll let sorear know.
22:27  * doy agrees with greensnark
22:27 <+greensnark> Changing that changes Crawl
22:27 < Vandal> They're just an xp modifier
22:27 < CIA-84> haranp * r49840080f150 /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/altar.des mon-project.cc mon-stuff.cc spl-book.cc): Merge branch 'master' of ssh://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref
22:27 < CIA-84> haranp * ra549338acb9b /crawl-ref/source/newgame.cc: Issue 318: artificers with rods of striking should start out wielding them
22:27 <+greensnark> The game is just a bunch of numbers in a computer :P
22:28 < Vandal> They don't actually stop a determined *insert race here* from being good at something
22:28  * haranp also agrees with greensnark
22:28 <+doy> Vandal: and?
22:28 <@dpeg> oh, I don't want to alter how skills work: aptitudes and skills are *awesome*
22:29 <+doy> just because TrEE is technically possible doesn't mean that aptitudes are worthless
22:29 < CIA-84> by messagewindow * r615250dffebb /crawl-ref/ (388 files in 39 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into messagewindow
22:29 < Vandal> I didn't say aptitudes are worthless
22:29 <@dpeg> my only point is that aptitudes currently use a granularity of 10 and for this, less is more
22:29 < CIA-84> by messagewindow * r1d312f238e4d /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Move cursor back after printing line.
22:30 <@dpeg> !seen henryci
22:30 < Henzell> I last saw henryci at Sun Jan  3 21:29:22 2010 UTC (46s ago) saying ??spriggan[4] on Henzell.
22:30 < Vandal> Going to a 7 level system though would be really nice
22:30 <@dpeg> Vandal: yes, I agree
22:30 <@dpeg> should I cough up numbers for 7 steps?
22:31 <+doy> i think 7 seems a bit low
22:31 < Eronarn> dpeg: jiyva muts!!
22:31 < Vandal> If you can't differentiate races enough with 7 levels of aptitude, then what is needed is more work outside of the apts table
22:31 <@dpeg> Eronarn: will reply later.
22:31 <+doy> but i agree with the stuff said before about making it use a geometric sequence rather than arithmetic
22:31 < Eronarn> okay :) just wanted to make sure you saw
22:31 <@dpeg> Eronarn: yes, I did
22:32 <@dpeg> Eronarn: also, we need your DS stuff! :)
22:32 < Eronarn> yes
22:32 <+doy> Vandal: saying things repeatedly doesn't make them more right
22:32 < Eronarn> testing out rod changes for a bit, though
22:32 <+by> 9 steps with a range of 50..250 would have steps of factor 1.2
22:33 < syllogism-> !apt md
22:33 < Henzell> MD: Air=150, Armour=60!, Axes=65!, Bows=150, Conj=120, Xbows=90, Darts=120, Div=130, Dodge=110, Earth=70, Ench=150, Evo=67, Exp=130, Fighting=70!, Fire=70!, Ice=130, Inv=75, Long=90, Maces=70!, Nec=160, Poison=130, Polearms=110, Shields=70!, Short=80, Slings=120, Splcast=208, Stab=130, Staves=120, Stealth=150, Summ=150, Throw=120, Tloc=150, Tmut=120, Traps=80, Unarmed=100
22:33 <+by> 50..250 is kind of stupid though
22:33 <@dpeg> by: nine-th root of 50?
22:33 <+by> of 5
22:33 <@dpeg> right
22:33 <+by> 250/50
22:33 <@dpeg> yes
22:33 <+by> maybe 6 for max apt / min apt is realistic?
22:33 < Vandal> Are you absolutely convinced the top of the scale needs to be 250 just because one race uses that for one apt?
22:33 <@dpeg> I just did the same computation with 250/40 and n=6 and n=8
22:33 <@dpeg> Vandal: no
22:34 <@dpeg> I also don't think that min of 50 (rather than 40) would be out of the question
22:34 <@dpeg> but the more important question is number of steps, imo
22:34 < syllogism-> are you still going to use numbers to describe the apts?
22:34 <@dpeg> since 6 seems too little and 8 works, we should have a look at 7
22:34 < syllogism-> because frankly 1-7 or whatever doesnt sound any better 
22:35 <@dpeg> syllogism-: I'D like to use +++ ++ + . - -- ---
22:35 <+doy> 48 58 69 83 100 120 144 173 207
22:35 <+by> that's 6 steps
22:35 <@dpeg> which happens to be seven =)
22:35 <+doy> that seems like a decent spread
22:35 < Eronarn> by: it is 7 values, 3 steps above neutral, 3 steps below
22:35 < syllogism-> !apt mi
22:35 < Henzell> Mi: Air=170, Armour=80, Axes=70, Bows=90, Conj=170*, Xbows=90, Darts=90, Div=170, Dodge=80, Earth=170*, Ench=170, Evo=127, Exp=140, Fighting=70!, Fire=170*, Ice=170*, Inv=97, Long=70!, Maces=70!, Nec=170*, Poison=170*, Polearms=70, Shields=80, Short=70, Slings=90, Splcast=234, Stab=100, Staves=70!, Stealth=130, Summ=170*, Throw=90, Tloc=170*, Tmut=170*, Traps=120, Unarmed=80!
22:35 <+doy> dpeg: what do you think?
22:35 <@dpeg> doy: too many!
22:36 <+by> but 6 steps from lowest to highest, so 6th root of lowest/highest
22:36 <@dpeg> by: yes
22:36 <+doy> dpeg: i don't think that's too many
22:36 < syllogism-> +++ and ++ wouldnt get used at all really
22:36 <@dpeg> syllogism-: which is good!
22:36 < syllogism-> is it
22:36 <@dpeg> yes, they'd stand out
22:37 < syllogism-> I mean literally not get used :P
22:37 < syllogism-> unless you improve the apts
22:37 <+doy> i mean, ---- --- -- - . + ++ +++ ++++ isn't really any worse
22:37 < syllogism-> assuming we use something like doy proposed
22:37 < syllogism-> oops
22:37 < syllogism-> that wasn't a 7 step scale :P
22:38 <@dpeg> syllogism-: oh, not used is bad
22:38 <@dpeg> but what about Naga stealth?
22:38 < Eronarn> dpeg: that would be one of the few uses... centaur ranged, spriggan tmut
22:39 < Eronarn> not very many things with apts that low though
22:39 < TGW> eronarn: spriggan has like five different schools at 50
22:39 <@dpeg> of course, we're talking about 0.7 stuff here
22:39 < TGW> DE's ench, DD's evo, mf's pla, etc etc etc
22:39 < Vandal> 50, 60, 75, 100, 130, 165, 205 is not math based, but seems sort of like what you're going for
22:39 < Vandal> ok it is math based but not programmer math :)
22:40 < Napkin> got his message, greensnark? his macro file caused the error
22:40 <+greensnark> Napkin: Yes, saw that
22:40 < TGW> dpeg: twinge and I were talking about this earlier... he landed on 17% increments between 40 and 250
22:40 <+greensnark> Can we get his macro file? :)
22:40 < Napkin> btw, dear devs:
22:40 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: patrolling quokka <3
22:40 < Napkin> sure :)
22:40 < TGW> which, at the top, is WAY less than now
22:40 < Napkin> Invalid brand on item 16 needles (buggy), annulling.
22:40 < Napkin> Invalid brand on item 20 needles (buggy), annulling.
22:40 < Napkin> those messages keep popping up in console
22:40 <+greensnark> Napkin: Did you update with my needle brand fix?
22:40 <+by> is there any skill with a range of more than 4x
22:40 <+by> ?
22:41 <+doy> Vandal: if we're ditching numbers, making clean numbers isn't really a priority
22:41 < Napkin> erm.. let me check
22:41 < syllogism-> !apt sk=splcast
22:41 < Henzell> Splcast: Dr=130, Dr[black]=130, Ce=182, DD=156, DE=71!, DG=143, DS=130, Gh=156, Dr[green]=130, Dr[grey]=130, Ha=169, HE=91, HO=195, Hu=130, Ke=130, Ko=143, Mf=130, Mi=234, Dr[mottled]=130, MD=208, Mu=130, Na=130, Og=91, Dr[pale]=130, Dr[purple]=91, Dr[red]=130, SE=91, Sp=78, Tr=260*, Vp=130, Dr[white]=130, Dr[yellow]=130
22:41 < syllogism-> !apt sk=stealth
22:41 < Henzell> Stealth: Dr=120, Dr[black]=120, Ce=200, DD=70, DE=65, DG=110, DS=110, Gh=80, Dr[green]=120, Dr[grey]=120, Ha=60, HE=90, HO=150, Hu=100, Ke=100, Ko=60, Mf=90, Mi=130, Dr[mottled]=120, MD=150, Mu=140, Na=40!, Og=150, Dr[pale]=120, Dr[purple]=120, Dr[red]=120, SE=75, Sp=50, Tr=250*, Vp=50, Dr[white]=120, Dr[yellow]=120
22:41 <+greensnark> Napkin: 27ac9ff23
22:41 < syllogism-> stealth
22:41 < syllogism-> 40 - 250
22:41 < Vandal> Well does it match what you're after? increasing gaps as the numbers get higher?
22:41 -!- TwingeHatesISP [n=user@97-124-164-224.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:41 <+by> troll stealth would probably be fine at 160
22:41 <+by> give them racial shouting if required
22:42 <@dpeg> Vandal: yes, but the correct approach seems to squeeze the end points into a geometric progression
22:42 < Eronarn> by: or just a general size-based stealth bonus/malus
22:42 < Eronarn> like tweaking the racial modifiers
22:42 <+greensnark> Napkin: Can you get me a link to Eifel's macro file or point me at the location on cdo? :)
22:42 < Vandal> I need more college to keep participating in this discussion :)
22:42 <@dpeg> by: trying to reduce min and max?
22:42 <+by> I'm just trying to find out what range is used realistically
22:42 <@dpeg> Vandal: wait until we discuss fractal algorithms for shoal layouts :)
22:42 < Napkin> yes. 1s, he recreated it and got the crash again
22:42 <+by> trolls' abysmal stealth aptitude doesn't really matter
22:43 < Eronarn> Vandal: you can learn a lot of this stuff on wikipedia, fwiw
22:43 <@dpeg> by: I agree that the 250 matters little. 40 vs 50 does matter, though
22:43 <+by> what has aptitude 40?
22:43 < Eronarn> it would really help a lot if, before we discussed this
22:43 < |eith|> naga stealth
22:43 < TGW> by: naga stealth
22:43 < Eronarn> we converted to sane units
22:43 < Eronarn> xp-gained-per-xp-input
22:44 <+by> Eronarn: that's not constant, though, is it?
22:44 < Napkin> greensnark: http://crawl.develz.org/configs/trunk/Eifeltrampel.macro
22:44 <+greensnark> Napkin: Yes, I have a local repro now, thanks
22:44 < Eronarn> by: it's like the difference between miles per gallon and gallons per mile
22:44 < Napkin> :))
22:44 < Eronarn> one is a lot more human-readable
22:44 < Napkin> you are a star, greensnark :D
22:45 < Eronarn> it's not actually constant later on in the skill system, but is a much saner way to discuss it
22:45 <@dpeg> Eronarn: doesn't really matter imo
22:45 <+by> oh, you just want 1/apt
22:45 < Eronarn> yes
22:45 < Eronarn> like, 40/50 becomes 250/200
22:45 < Eronarn> this makes it much more clear what the difference is
22:46 <+by> Eronarn: but not for 200/250
22:46 < syllogism-> <heteroy> why are ogres throwing giant clubs at me?
22:46 < syllogism-> <3
22:47 < Eronarn> by: if there are any effects later in the skill system they just need to be noted
22:47 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-173-1.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
22:47 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
22:47 <@dpeg> Eronarn: but the content is the same. I don't see much of an advantage.
22:47 <+by> Eronarn: just saying, this makes the difference between 40 and 50 clearer, as much as it makes the difference between 200 and 250 less clear
22:48 <@dpeg> to me, the difference between 40 and 50 is pretty clear
22:49 <+by> so outside stealth we need a total factor of 4x, and stealth needs 6.25x
22:49 < Eronarn> stealth has racial modifiers already
22:49 < Eronarn> so we don't strictly need that
22:49 < Eronarn> they can be tweaked
22:49 < TwingeHatesISP> dpeg: 7 steps is *much* too low.  TGW and I were talking about using a lot of steps, and not using any set descriptive terms for them as such - just making a logarithmic chart -9 to +9, which correlates roughly with the current level of precision we have available.
22:49 < syllogism-> that won't be the same thing though
22:50 <+by> currently, naga can get to 27 quickly, but won't improve afterwards
22:50 <@dpeg> TwingeHatesISP: our wish is to reduce the precision
22:50 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:50 <@dpeg> because 100 vs 110 is not crucial enough
22:50 < syllogism-> I'm not sure this is worthwhile though
22:50 <@dpeg> 100 vs 120 probably is
22:50 < TGW> dpeg: 100 vs 117 was what we had I think
22:51 <@dpeg> yes, seems okay to me
22:51 <+doy> dpeg: right, 100 vs 120 needs around 9 levels though
22:51 < TGW> :D
22:51 <+doy> the distribution i gave earlier for instance
22:51 <@dpeg> doy: yes, unless we reduce the range MAX-MIN which is what by is exploring right no
22:51 <@dpeg> w
22:52 < TwingeHatesISP> doy: It should be logrithmic if we're going to re-do the chart to not show strict numbers anyway.  It would basically be like this:
22:52 <@dpeg> I could definitely live with stealth getting a factor from size (so Sp and Tr would be taken caren of), although that leaves Na out
22:53 < TwingeHatesISP> 40/43/46/50/55/60/67/75/86/100/117/133/150/167/183/200/217/233/250
22:53 < Eronarn> dpeg: 
22:53 < Eronarn> ??stealth[2]
22:53 < Henzell> stealth[2/4]: Base stealth is 3*dex + stealth*character value. Character values are: Troll, Ogre, Ogre Mage, Centaur: 9; Minotaur: 12; Gnome, Halfling, Kobold, Spriggan, Naga, Vampire: 18; Vampire when hungry/bat: 19; All others: 15.
22:53 < Eronarn> this is already in, values just need tweaked
22:53 <@dpeg> yes
22:53 < syllogism-> are those documented anywhere by the way
22:53 < Eronarn> no
22:53 < Eronarn> well, on henzell
22:53 < Eronarn> but otherwise no
22:53 <+doy> TwingeHatesISP: we don't really need *that* much precision though
22:54 <@dpeg> yes
22:54 < syllogism-> ??mr
22:54 < Henzell> magic resistance[1/5]: Magic resistance is your or a monster's ability to ignore hostile enchantments. Player MR comes from experience level, items and enchantments skill. The most important hostile monster enchantments are Sigmund|orc wizard confuse, Jessica|orc wizard slow, deep elf sorcerer|ogre mage|Erolcha|Louise banishment, ancient lich|orc sorcerer paralysis.
22:54 < TwingeHatesISP> doy: I think we should have it.  a 17% jump is not at all insignificant
22:54 -!- TwingeHatesISP is now known as Twinge
22:54 <+by> stealth skill goes in directly a few other places, but I'm not sure they really matter
22:54 <+doy> 48 - 207 is a reasonable range too i think
22:54 <@dpeg> syllogism-: well, there is the stealth feedback in @
22:55 <@dpeg> by: I think we can get by with a seven steps system
22:55 < syllogism-> yes but you won't know about the racial modifiers
22:55 <@dpeg> syllogism-: but you could probably guess after a while
22:55 < Twinge> 7 steps is really bad I think; even 50 to 250 you're talking 33% difference, that's huge
22:56 <+doy> Twinge: Twinge well, it wouldn't be 50-250 though, since it should be centered aroudn 100
22:56 < Twinge> *50 to 200 I meant
22:56 <@dpeg> humans are generally only able to figure out scales with up to seven entries
22:56 < Napkin> greensnark: you think you fix it? should I wait with the update or better get the needle fix in quickly?
22:57 < Twinge> I also see no real reason for it.  -9 to +9 clearly shows what's better than what on a chart with no confusion between the likes of 40/50 being the same as 250/200
22:57 <+doy> Twinge: 50-200 is around 1.21
22:57 < Napkin> *can
22:57 < nrook> you could do 8, with --- to +++ and an XXX for "augh this is horrible don't train this"
22:57 < Twinge> doy: Er?  It would be 50/60/75/100/133/167/200.  33% jumps off 100.
22:58 <@dpeg> Twinge: you are a human, too. Don't try to deny it!
22:58 < TGW> ?
22:58 <+doy> Twinge: um
22:58 <+doy> that's not right
22:58 <+greensnark> Napkin: Sorry, haven't had the time to look at it yet
22:58 <@dpeg> yes, the numbers are off
22:58 <+greensnark> If you're not in a hurry, hang on
22:59 < Twinge> dpeg: I can manage more complex scales fine, thanks :P  And I'm fine with just looking at the numbers as it is now (though the 'round to 10' scale kind of screws the low end)
22:59 < Twinge> How so?
22:59 <+doy> 1.33 would be 42 57 75 100 133 177 235
22:59 <+by> 50, 63, 79, 100
22:59 <+greensnark> I'm not very familiar with this code, might take a bit
22:59 < Napkin> cool - no hurry
22:59 <+by> 50, 63, 79, 100, 126, 159, 200
22:59 < Napkin> my dad finally found rPoison in D20 :D will watch him in Snake Pit then for a while ;)
22:59 <+greensnark> Shoals!
23:00 < syllogism-> have you helped him a lot
23:00 < ogaz> swamp?
23:00 <+greensnark> Or did he already do the Shoals? :)
23:00 < syllogism-> crawl is too easy :P
23:00 < Napkin> he's playing stable ;)
23:00 <+greensnark> It's getting easier too :P
23:00 <+greensnark> Someone was talking about how their Wn started with 7 Fighting
23:00 <+greensnark> What's up with that, btw? :P
23:00 < syllogism-> ogres have good apts :P
23:00 < Napkin> and ja - looots of questions answered when he started to like it ;)
23:00 -!- ais523 [n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:01 < TGW> by: I'd rather see a scale that keeps the 40
23:01 <+greensnark> So new Wn are like a random existing class, only much stronger? :P
23:01 < syllogism-> sometimes 
23:02 < TGW> 40 -> 50 is 20%, which is a lot
23:02 < Twinge> greensnark: They start with more skills total, but rarely will they line up to actually end up being a better combined set than a pre-set class.
23:02 < TGW> for enchanters and assassins, that's an entire level of stealth
23:02 < TGW> and that's big
23:02 < Ashenzari> Elyvion should accept rods and staves as sacrifices (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=319) by Eronarn
23:02 < Eronarn> can we please get rid of immolation
23:02 < TGW> who the hell would sacrifice a rod?
23:02 < Eronarn> TGW: Demonology
23:02 < TGW> eronarn: it's useful
23:02 < TGW> Eronarn: fair enough
23:03 < Eronarn> TGW: useful for doing nothing 99% of the time, except when it instakills you because you forget that you're deep enough for it to spawn
23:04 < TGW> eronarn: it's like scroll of noise that kills things
23:04 < Eronarn> TGW: i'd be fine with it if it just did damage to things around you, but the damage to yourself is just a nuisance
23:05 <+by> we can agree on the step already: third root of 2
23:06 <+by> that gives 50-200 with with 7 values, or 40-250 with 9 values
23:06 < Twinge> doy / be: Hmm, fair enough; I am not experienced with log-scales at all, I was only applying it to the baseline and extrapolating from there I guess.  Still even then, at 40/250 especially even 9-step is not nearly as precise as I'd like to see.  Having some room to tweak for subtle differences is nice and gives room for some good thematic tweaking
23:11 < nrook> canceling a self-inflicted blink spell with ctele should probably not take any time
23:14 < CIA-84> Enne * r4294ce7ebf73 /crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): [212] Fixing prompts clearing screen in tiles.
23:15 <@dpeg> immolation is good
23:15 < CIA-84> greensnark * r0c8fe019ddae /crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Fix Crawl assert if user tries to repeat a command with Enter macroed to \{13} (Eifeltrampel).
23:15 <+greensnark> Napkin: Cmd-repeat bug is fixed in master
23:16 <@dpeg> by: yes. I am fine with 50-200 with 7 values. What are all aptitudes outside of that range?
23:17 <+by> dpeg: so far I'm only aware of naga and troll stealth (40, 250)
23:18 <@dpeg> by: okay, that can be taken care of
23:18 < Twinge> And Troll Spellcasting is 260 currently
23:18 < syllogism-> !apt orc
23:18 < Henzell> Could not understand "orc"
23:18 < syllogism-> !apt ho
23:18 < Henzell> HO: Air=150, Armour=90, Axes=70, Bows=120, Conj=100, Xbows=120, Darts=130, Div=160, Dodge=140, Earth=100, Ench=120, Evo=75, Exp=100!, Fighting=70!, Fire=100, Ice=100, Inv=75, Long=80, Maces=80, Nec=100, Poison=110, Polearms=80, Shields=80, Short=100, Slings=130, Splcast=195, Stab=100, Staves=110, Stealth=150, Summ=120, Throw=100, Tloc=150, Tmut=160, Traps=100, Unarmed=90
23:18 < syllogism-> !apt md
23:18 < Henzell> MD: Air=150, Armour=60!, Axes=65!, Bows=150, Conj=120, Xbows=90, Darts=120, Div=130, Dodge=110, Earth=70, Ench=150, Evo=67, Exp=130, Fighting=70!, Fire=70!, Ice=130, Inv=75, Long=90, Maces=70!, Nec=160, Poison=130, Polearms=110, Shields=70!, Short=80, Slings=120, Splcast=208, Stab=130, Staves=120, Stealth=150, Summ=150, Throw=120, Tloc=150, Tmut=120, Traps=80, Unarmed=100
23:18 < Eronarn> one thing we could do: DS might be getting a stealthiness mutation
23:18 < Eronarn> this could be given to trolls/naga, as a flat bonus/penalty
23:18 < Eronarn> unlike the racial modifier, which changes with skill level
23:19 <+by> troll spellcasting is 260/130 = 2x
23:19 <@dpeg> Eronarn: yes. Seeing "You are particularly stealthy." in the A screen for Nagas might be good.
23:19 < syllogism-> md and ho would essentially have the same apts with the new system
23:20 <@dpeg> syllogism-: armour?
23:20 < Vandal> That means they already were close
23:20 <+by> in about as much as they do already?
23:22 < ogaz> dpeg: DD have 45 evo, but evo is kind of a special case
23:23 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
23:24 < Twinge> We'd probably want to remove the special cases in a way, in that they'd all look the same on charts even if they were automatically reduced/increased by a certain amount for all races when they're actually trained
23:25 < Napkin> heh, he decided for swamp instead of snake pit
23:25 < Napkin> because of the boots of levitation, that he found
23:26 <@dpeg> !seen drpraetor
23:26 < Henzell> I last saw DrPraetor at Thu Dec 31 23:22:49 2009 UTC (2d 23h 3m 35s ago) quitting with message Read error: 113 (No route to host).
23:26 <@dpeg> !seen drpraetorious
23:26 < Henzell> I last saw DrPraetorious at Thu Dec 31 23:49:09 2009 UTC (2d 22h 37m 22s ago) quitting with message Read error: 113 (No route to host).
23:26 < Napkin> he has no control flight though - is there a way to make auto-explore stop at the items it would usually pickup?
23:27 <@dpeg> hm, no idea
23:27 < Napkin> thanks, greensnark - updating
23:27 < Napkin> would you have an idea, greensnark?
23:28 <+Keskitalo> Twinge: I recall they (human evo, invo, spc) were listed as 100 at some point, then reverted back.
23:28 <@dpeg> yes
23:28 <@dpeg> Haran grudgingly did it ("peer pressure") but we reverted later.
23:30 <+by> we'd just store offsets from human in the new system I'd think; -3 .. +3
23:30 <@dpeg> yes
23:30 < Twinge> Kesk: Well if they are shown as numbers and that is the numbers used, that is what would be shown.  If it was a global idea of 'Invo and Evo are 25% easier to learn than other aptitudes for all races', noted somewhere in the manual or whatever, then they could easily be shown on the same chart without every race defaulting to +1 or +2
23:31 <+greensnark> Napkin: I don't know if there's a way to do it, can you add an FR?
23:31 < syllogism-> would demonspawn, mummies and demigod have the same apts
23:31 < syllogism-> or would demonspawn have the same apts as humans
23:31 <@dpeg> syllogism-: we are free to choose these
23:32 < Twinge> by/dpeg: I still strongly suggest at least 9-point.  That gives about 19% precision - 50/60/71/84/100/119/141/168/200
23:32 <@dpeg> Twinge: that battle is lost.
23:32 <@dpeg> imo
23:33 < Twinge> dpeg: Why?  7 is horribly imprecise, and several others seem to agree it's unncessary as well.
23:33 < syllogism-> I think the whole switch is unnecessary
23:33 < Napkin> roger, greensnark 
23:33 < syllogism-> it definitely doesn't accomplish anything worthwhile
23:33 < Eronarn> i agree with syllogism-
23:33 <@dpeg> syllogism-: this is wrong
23:33 < Eronarn> look at how much time has been spent working on this
23:34 <@dpeg> that's not my or by's fault
23:35 <@dpeg> syllogism-: So often we get species (change) proposals involving aptitude fiddlery. Reducing the granularity will emphasise the aptitudes's actual meaning without getting lost in the numbers.
23:35 < syllogism-> you can accomplish the same with the current system
23:35 <@dpeg> It's only loud because everyone has an opinion and wants to share it.
23:35 < syllogism-> the new system is limiting
23:35 < TGW> syllogism++
23:35 <@dpeg> syllogism-: I just told you about a deficiency of the current system.
23:35 < syllogism-> dpeg: yes and I understand your position
23:36 < syllogism-> but I don't agree
23:36 < Twinge> dpeg: You're replacing it with another deficiency, though.
23:36 <+greensnark> I thought the goal of the change was to reduce number table overload for new players
23:36 <+greensnark> That seems like a semi-worthwhile idea, if not the most pressing thing at this point
23:37 <+greensnark> But if it's just to cut down on crap FRs for new species :P
23:37 <+greensnark> Then I'm with syllogism
23:37 < syllogism-> apts dont really affect the new players
23:37 <@dpeg> I don't have time to talk about this all evening. It's not a 0.6 target, and the current granularity is misleading and *has* mislead umpteenth times, including some very dear developers.
23:37 < TGW> syllogism-: my first character was a sptm
23:37 <+greensnark> Ok, let's raise this zombie again in 0.7 timeframe
23:37 <@dpeg> greensnark: agree on not pressing, but I did point that out :)
23:37 <@dpeg> yes
23:38 <+greensnark> I do think reducing the skill table overload for new players would be nice
23:38 <+greensnark> But yeah, let's get 0.6 out first
23:38 <@dpeg> absolutely
23:38 <@dpeg> also, this is a bikeshed type problem
23:38 <+kilobyte> numbers > adjectives
23:38 < TGW> can we increase halfling's air apt to 100?
23:38 <@dpeg> kilobyte: disagree
23:38 -!- TGW was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [dpeg]
23:38 <+greensnark> Can we get a new bikeshed entry vault
23:38 <+greensnark> That is a different colour for each release
23:38 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
23:39 <@dpeg> need new item: bike
23:39 < TGW> need new branch: shed
23:39 < Napkin> actually, according to the options_guide, it should stop for every item: explore_greedy is disabled when levitating & when non-greedy explore, any new item will stop explore (explore_greedy & explore_stop info)
23:39 < Twinge> kilobyte: I prefer numbers too :P
23:39 <@dpeg> bloodshed
23:39 < TGW> I'm not sure what just happened but ok
23:39 <+greensnark> Napkin: But does that actually happen?
23:39 <+kilobyte> numbers can be compared, names not really
23:39 < Napkin> sadly no
23:39 <+greensnark> Napkin: Ok, it's a bug, not an FR :)
23:39 < Napkin> hehe
23:39 <+doy> !learn add bad_ideas Shed portal vault, that prompts the player for wall and floor colors on every entrance
23:39 < Henzell> bad ideas[1361/1361]: Shed portal vault, that prompts the player for wall and floor colors on every entrance
23:40 <@dpeg> kilobyte: so you would rather have numbers than "You are [adjective] stealthy."?
23:40 < TGW> kilobyte: adjectives have applications in stealth and stuff
23:40 <+kilobyte> for example, spell failure names can't even be sorted
23:40 <@dpeg> I think that'd be a severe regression.
23:40 < TGW> ok that's true
23:40 < Napkin> maybe adding "greedy_items" to explore_stop could do it - instead of only greedy_pickup (current default)
23:40 <+greensnark> Napkin: But that would stop you even when greedy pickup could grab the item, no?
23:41 <+kilobyte> why?  People have to look up the numbers (where they matter, with stealth that's not really the case).
23:41 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I think the point is that adjectives *purposefully* reduce the informated handed over
23:41 <+greensnark> That is it would stop you when that scroll of acquirement comes into view, and once again when you pick it up
23:41 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I never look up any numbers.
23:41 <@dpeg> *information up there
23:41 <+kilobyte> spell hunger specially: you need to know the numbers if you're a spriggan, since you need to know how to make it 0 (spells with non-0 hunger are good only for emergencies)
23:42 < Napkin> yes - just as a temporary fix while he plays swamp
23:42 < Napkin> i'll do the FR/BR in a minute
23:42  * greensnark goes to bed.
23:42 <@dpeg> greensnark: bye!
23:42 < Napkin> g'night, greensnark!
23:43 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-1997-g0c8fe01 (14.0)
23:43 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I think the current system is much better than any numbers, since it gives you feedback in terms of food items. I think the scale is "casting this spell five times will cost about one type of this food item." If you'd like to, we can spell that out although I'd like to leave it implicit.
23:43 < haranp> bye greensnark
23:43 <+doy> kilobyte: well, one of the spell hunger adjectives is "none"
23:43 <@dpeg> in the first version, the food items did not make much sense, but now they do
23:43 <+kilobyte> "five times"... so it means it actually LIES to the player.
23:43 <+doy> which accomplishes that reasonably well, i think
23:44 <@dpeg> kilobyte: come on
23:44 <+doy> dpeg: i agree there
23:44 < syllogism-> it's probably documented somewhere if that's the case, but that is misleading
23:44 <+doy> if it is "5 times" that should be noted
23:44 <+kilobyte> common sense says it's the cost for a single cast
23:44 <+doy> because that is misleading
23:44 <@dpeg> you can print "apple/5" if yuo want :)
23:44 <+doy> right
23:44 < Twinge> 5 times what?  I didn't know that either
23:44 <@dpeg> the point is that it doesn't matter
23:44 <@dpeg> the relative information counts
23:44 <+doy> but
23:45 <+doy> these are also relative to actual in game amounts
23:45 <+doy> that are different
23:45 <+kilobyte> if only relative information counts, it shouldn't pretend to give absolute values
23:45 <+doy> if they were just random adjectives, then it wouldn't matter
23:45 < TGW> you could make the header "casts per choko" and give rounded values
23:45 <+kilobyte> minor/medium/major/etc were thus better, since they didn't convey false information
23:45 <@dpeg> greensnark suggested to remove the II screen altogether
23:45 <+doy> nah, knowing when casting is hungerless is important
23:46 <@dpeg> kilobyte: do you want the helm? YOu can have it.
23:46 < TGW> and when you've hit power cap
23:46 <+kilobyte> what helm?
23:46 <@dpeg> The Crawl helm.
23:46 < Eronarn> solution: use the actual food values, add "Crumb" for less-than-sultana but more-than-hungerless
23:46 < TGW> and range is extremely convenient
23:46 < TGW> eronarn: the actual food values are way too much to be useful
23:46 < Eronarn> dpeg: is that like a helm of opposite alignment?
23:47 < Eronarn> TGW: it'd just mean that more stuff would use grape, sultana, sausage, etc.
23:47 < TGW> ??spell hunger
23:47 < Henzell> spell hunger[1/2]: Casting a spell lowers your nutrition by an amount varying with the spell's level:  (1) 50, (2) 95, (3) 160, (4) 250, (5) 350, (6) 550, (7) 700, (8) 860, (9) 1000.  This amount is lowered by the product of your Intelligence and Spellcasting.  (For rods, your Evocation skill * 10, with a minimum of 5.)
23:47 < TGW> ??spell hunger[2]
23:47 < Henzell> spell hunger[2/2]: Display messages in 0.5:  Grape is >= 1.  Apple is >= 25.  Choko is >= 150.  Ration is >= 500.
23:47 <+doy> hmmm
23:47 < Eronarn> ??food[2]
23:47 <@dpeg> in trunk there is honeycomb
23:47 < Henzell> food[2/2]: Sultana is 70. Grape is 100. Strawberry is 200. Lychee/choko/rambutan is 600. Apricot/pear/apple is 700. Banana/lemon/orange is 1000. Cheese/sausage is 1200. Beef jerky/pizza/snozzcumber is 1500. Porridge is 6040. Potion of water is 60. Water fountain is 20.
23:48 <+doy> ??food
23:48 < Eronarn> there's sultana too
23:48 < Henzell> food[1/2]: Goes in mouth. Without carnivore or herbivore: Royal jelly weighs 5.5, is 5000 nutrition. Meat weighs 8, is 5000 nutrition. Bread weighs 8, is 4400 nutrition. Honeycomb weighs 4, is 2000 nutrition. A chunk weighs 10, is 1000 nutrition. Takes 4 turns to eat rations, 3 for chunks, 2 turns for all other food.
23:48 < Eronarn> in trunk
23:48 < TGW> it would mean "sultanas, grapes and a large fruit once a blue moon"
23:48 <@dpeg> but as I said, the first system was a fake; the new system uses actually consistent numbers
23:48 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:48 <+doy> i think saying somthing like 5/choko, 2/ration, etc would be reasonable
23:49 <+kilobyte> good idea doy
23:50 < TGW> Grapes: tenth, fifth, half, whole, two, five, ten
23:50 <@dpeg> count me out
23:50 <+doy> TGW: what?
23:50 < TGW> doy: express spell hunger in terms of grapes
23:50 -!- by [n=rob@g225122029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["sleep"]
23:50 <+doy> that seems a lot worse
23:50 < nrook> perhaps you could lessen the food value of some snacks to correspond to spell hunger :)
23:51 < Eronarn> "You can't cast this spell until you find a knife to dissect your grapes."
23:51 < TGW> :P
23:51 < Twinge> Hah.
23:51 <@dpeg> nrook: we did that, actually
23:51 < Eronarn> nrook: this would work, if more of them also showed up per-stack
23:51 < Eronarn> it would be nice for fedhasites, for sure
23:51 < TGW> seriously though, those intervals are 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, 500, 1000 expressed in useful units
23:52 < Eronarn> 'popcorn'
23:52 <+doy> TGW: but nobody knows how much nutrition grapes give
23:52 <+doy> so it's basically meaningless
23:52 < nrook> dpeg: oh, good!
23:52 < TGW> doy: it's more likely they know how much a grape is than how much a grape, choko, "ration" etc is
23:53 <+doy> TGW: not true, people eat chokos, rations, etc all the time
23:53 <@dpeg> doy: the only important fact to know is "very little".
23:53 < Siber> does examining food in your inventory show you how much nutrition is in it?
23:53 <+doy> nobody eats grapes
23:53 < Eronarn> crumb, popcorn, sultana, grape, strawberry, lychee, apple, orange
23:53 < Eronarn> works for me
23:53 < TGW> if individual pieces of popcorn are implemented I'm quitting crawl
23:53 <@dpeg> Eronarn: what about apple vs orange?
23:53 < TGW> ??food[2]
23:53 < Henzell> food[2/2]: Sultana is 70. Grape is 100. Strawberry is 200. Lychee/choko/rambutan is 600. Apricot/pear/apple is 700. Banana/lemon/orange is 1000. Cheese/sausage is 1200. Beef jerky/pizza/snozzcumber is 1500. Porridge is 6040. Potion of water is 60. Water fountain is 20.
23:53 <+doy> eating things gives you a reasonable estimate of how much nutrition they give
23:53 < Siber> I eat grapes
23:54 < Eronarn> TGW: what if using conjure flame on a death cob makes popcorn, though
23:54 < TGW> eronarn: hostile popcorn that is trying to kill you
23:54 <+doy> heh
23:54 < TGW> death popcorn
23:54 < TGW> you don't want to eat that
23:54 < Siber> The food display in game seems perfectly reasonable. It shows food of different sizes, which is pretty intuitive to people that beat as far as I can figure.
23:54 < Eronarn> oh god
23:54 < Siber> eat
23:54 < Eronarn> even if popcorn doesn't come in as a food item
23:54 < Eronarn> i want this to happen
23:54 <+kilobyte> good idea :)
23:55 <+doy> Siber: the display in game doesn't correspond to the actual amounts of the food though
23:55 < Eronarn> fire causes perma-damage to death cobs but creates death popcorn
23:55 <+kilobyte> a joke monster, yeah, but death cobs are jokes already
23:55 <@dpeg> I don't like at all how this channel gets distracted by discussion about stupid topics.
23:55 < Eronarn> dpeg: hey, it's winter break ;)
23:55 < Eronarn> dpeg: btw, apple vs. orange: the fruit nutrition values are a bit weird, yes.
23:55 <+doy> dpeg: we get distracted by non-stupid topics too!
23:56 < Eronarn> i'm not sure why apricots are worth as much as apples
23:56 < Eronarn> but oranges are worth 50% more than apples
23:56 < Siber> It does seem to get bogged down in long discussions over things that will have very little impact on the game either way
23:56 -!- Enne [n=enne@cpe-076-182-101-004.nc.res.rr.com] has quit []
23:56 <+doy> it's true
23:57 < Eronarn> perhaps we could just use masses of fruits, mass directly proportional to nutrition, when genning fruit do it as "5 aum of fruit" of a random-mass fruit and divide
23:57 <+doy> at least that happens here now, rather than the mailing list
23:57 <+doy> (:
23:57 < Eronarn> Siber: hey, don't blame me - am working on DS muts in another window :P
23:58 <@dpeg> doy: true, that's progress. But why am I here?
23:59 <+doy> (:
23:59 <+doy> you don't have to participate in every conversation(:
23:59 < Siber> DSPA for life!
23:59 <+doy> i certainly don't